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Hey while I am pretty certain this thread has been done before I could not find it and since I am curious to what you peoples' opinons are I decided to make a new one.

My money goes on Revan and I'm to friggen lazy to type all the reasons why so deal with it.

EDIT: Ack I'm an idiot I forgot the damn setting and time.

Ok

Setting is um Trayus Core

And where talking Revan DS after he reganed his memories and KOTOR 2 Kreia

Revan when

Revan then

revan would beat kreia but not easy remember she would know most of his skills and she trained him in saber combat so they would be even matched for a period of time but with revan being younger and with a great source of knowledge and maybe even more saber forms learned he would win and he also had a greater mastery over the force he is IMO the KoTOR chosen 1

This is sick, have you even seen the power that Traya has? She slaps three highly powerful Jedi Masters around like ragdolls. She then rips the force from them.

How do you know he knows more Lightsabre forms? Traya had access to the Jedi Archives AND Sith artefacts at the Trayus Academy. Perhaps she knew more.

Revan having a greater power over the force than Kreia? How is this so?

Okay, last time Kreia saw Revan was a long time ago.

Most of his new skills were not seen by her because he found them out during the Jedi Civil War, Kreia had no idea what Revan was doing then. She wasn't around, if she was then it was clear that Revan was the master then and even Malak was more powerful then her. Since I doubt that she just wasn't around. Meaning Revan learned a lot when she wasn't around.

Kreia also wasn't around during the Mandelorian wars, or at least not all the time. She is not an important general and did not have a very important place at least not important enough to be mentioned and known around the galaxy. Even then she was below Revan probably with a reason.

The things Kreia had acces to were very limited compared to what Revan had, especially if you consider that Revan was there first, he was on Malachor first, he was on Korriban first, he had the star forge and the rakatan home world. He also controlled the Star Forge which takes a shit load of power.

And thats just somethings I can think of in a second without really thinking about this topic (I'm to tired to think clearly now) One more thing however, if Kotor 2 would have been finished, Kreia would have followed Revan his orders. There would have been a reason for that.

But it wasn't neccessarily a reason of being less dominant. Kreia was a former jedi master and a Sith for some time. She is literally a mix of Dooku and Sidious, only in the KOTOR era and her lightsaber skills are never said to be anywhere near as good. However, if you talk to Kreia about lightsaber forms, you can get a feel for what she -would- use. For one thing, she applauds Shii-CHo for having a simple strength to it, with no real weaknesses. She also applauds Makashi but stresses caution with it, and she does not approve of Soresu. I forget what she said about the others at this time of morning.

Anyways, I still argue that Kreia with her type of training, extensive knowledge of the Force and especially extensive knowledge of Revan would make her come out on top. I mean, who do you think made Revan the way he is now? Kreia.

Very interesting. Janus. . . . run. Emperor Revan and Frobo'll be on you like vultures.

Although I do somewhat agree with you, in the option that she has a chance. Slaying three Council members with a wave of her hand is just. . . it's knowledge and power that maybe the Ancients would have. Now, Revan did this, Revan did that, blah blah blah. But have we ever truly seen Revan do anything like that? I don't think so. So Janus, we may have something here.

wait till KOTER3 then we'll know what Revan can really do

Well, we're not going to wait a year or two to decid ethis thread. By what we have now, Kreia has knowledge rivaling or exceeding that of even Revan. Her mastery is nigh unparalleled in any time. We can conclude, even by the run-through, that she has an very good chance here.

a year or two OMFG that long

. . .

You want to wait two years to debate a single ****ing thread. . . that's idiotic. For now, we go on what we have, and that's enough. Too hard? Then you needn't be here.

Or would you prefer the Lucasarts rushed the game again?

no i want the game to come out for every reason

Well, I really don't care. I'm going by what we have now, and if that's not good enough for you, tough it up.

Do you know if Revan will even be in the game? He may have been killed by some obscure Sith Lord for all we know.

Which is why, for now, we go with what we have. As Dimmimar said; we don't even know what happened to him, although he'll likely be alive. But perhaps he was slain by a Dark Jawa Lord. . .

I wouldn't be to surprised if in KOTOR 3, in the very beginning, there is this awsome cut-scene with a HUGE fleet of the True Sith Empire Ships near some star, ready to take on the Republic, and then you see Revan in his mask on this one little ship. It then cuts to the star. Which ruptures and destroys the entire fleet and Revan in the process. You mission is either to finish Revan's work and finish the Sith Empire.

I wouldn't be happy about Revan dieing, but it would solve a lot of problems, such as what Revan looked like and such.

I somewhat hope he doesn't meet his demise in the games. . . Although, it would be necessary in some circumstances.

KOTOR 36: Revan's Lost Dentures

Unfortunatly, he is going to have to die eventually.

Yes, well, he's a good character, although oftentimes annoying on this board.

"Oftentimes"

?

Originally posted by Dimmimar
"Oftentimes"

?

Revan has a large of following of fanboys that glorify Revan and claim that he could take on Ragnos and NJO Luke together and therefor they ruin poor Revan's reputation. I like Revan becuase he is powerful yet in all aspects he is a far more realistic character than guys like Ragnos and NJO Luke.

i think kreia could win kinda because it would be like obi-wan vs. anakin. anakin was more powerful but obi-wan beat him because he knew everything he would do (not the only reason he beat him but 1 of the major ones) granted revan is not as hot headed but still kreia pretty much created revan and made him what he is so i think she could win this

No I was talking about the word "oftentimes". Is it an Americanisation?

Originally posted by Dimmimar
No I was talking about the word "oftentimes". Is it an Americanisation?

Yes.

Ah, thank you.

Yeah... American English, the bastard child of the chimera of languages that went into Ye Olde English (Including Norman French, Angles and Saxon' dialects, some Norweigian influences, and of course... Latin)

Greek and Celtic influences too.

Just a wee bit, dontcha think?

Yep

Hmm about Kreia defeating Revan.

Now her mastery of the force might be better then Revan's, I have my doubts. But even if it is, its not going to be enough to destroy Revan that is clear. If it is she woudl rival the power of the Ancient Sith, she would own pretty much everybody after Kotor. Anyways Kreia most likely couldn't take out Revan using the force alone, she would need to fight. And there is just no way that she is a better fighter then Revan is. Revan knows her as well, he will know what she wants to do what she is going to do. And we all know that Revan is a good and smart fighter he would take her out in a direct fight.

Is it clear that it would not be enough to destroy Revan!? Revan doesn't rival the power the power of the Ancient Sith.

Neither does Kreia, but if Kreia can destroy Revan with the force alone she would. I don't think she can take out Revan with the force. We don't even know what the hell the attack she used was. We don't know how powerful she really is and if she can defeat Revan. But what I do know is that it takes a very good force user to beat somebody else with the force alone, its almost impossible especially when they still have a lightsaber.

Now Kreia is good but I don't think she is good enough for that, so a lightsaber fight would happen and she stands no chance against Revan with that.

The power she used is similar to the one that the Sith Assassins, Darth Nihilus and the Darkside Exile use. The bodies of the Jedi Masters are "Devoid of all life, like a hole in the force." (bad quoting, sorry).

Wrong.

Its a power you can't learn, she only talks about that power when the Exile and Nihilus used it, its possible that she used the power through the Exile but she could not have used it herself because she is not a wound in the force. She can not drain life from somebody like Nihilus and the Exile can.

Note that I said "similar". I never said that it was the same power, merely similar in it's affects.

So you are saying that Traya used the Exile as a, chaneller, to rip the force from the Jedi.

Originally posted by Dimmimar
Note that I said "similar". I never said that it was the same power, merely similar in it's affects.

So you are saying that Traya used the Exile as a, chaneller, to rip the force from the Jedi.

Could be yes... I don't know.

And yah the effect was similar, the Jedi died. The effect of the attack was the same one (or in this case 3) dead Jedi. But the attack itself was far from.

And that still wouldn't make us know if it would work on Revan or not, if Revan could block the attack or not.

Yes, the only problem with Kreia's technique is that there is little documentation of what it does. Could Kreia use it to kill Revan? Or wouldn't it work? We just don't know.

No, the real problem is that if Kreia used the Exile to channel the power, it is the exile who would receive the feedback. And perhaps... perhaps, you're on to something.

After all, the Exile does learn his or her final force power at this point.

And if this is the case, if Kreia can NOT use that ability without using the Exile as a channeler, then she is no longer an instakill power character. Not weak by any means, and certainly not so weak that Revan would out and out dominate her, but it does take some air out of her sails.

The force power learning thing was just an excuse for the cut Sith Holocron sequence.

The Holocron in Uthar's room was supposed to teach you them.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
No, the real problem is that if Kreia used the Exile to channel the power, it is the exile who would receive the feedback. And perhaps... perhaps, you're on to something.

After all, the Exile does learn his or her final force power at this point.

And if this is the case, if Kreia can NOT use that ability without using the Exile as a channeler, then she is no longer an instakill power character. Not weak by any means, and certainly not so weak that Revan would out and out dominate her, but it does take some air out of her sails.

Well yeah, and it doesn't seem so unlikely to me actually. You once said something about the body's being devoid of the force or something. I don't remember exactly. According to all we know Kreia can not simply the drain the force out of somebody, only two people can do that. The Exile and Nihilus so if they are indeed without the force then it was the Exile that killed them.

Do you remember what was said when you look at the body's? It could help.

I can't remeber the quote but it described them as being "devoid of the force."

Then I wouldn't be surprised at all if Kreia used the Exile to kill them... Seems logical she would not be able to use that power herself.

It does. But until it's verified, we have to also entertain the other possibility- that she CAN use that power. After all, she did train both Nihilus and the Exile, and she knew almost quite intimately the effects of the power.

Yes, you could say that she used the Sith knowledge on Malachor V to nurture Nihilus' talent, and he then taught it to the Sith Assassins.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
It does. But until it's verified, we have to also entertain the other possibility- that she CAN use that power. After all, she did train both Nihilus and the Exile, and she knew almost quite intimately the effects of the power.

Could be but she herself said it was a technique that could not be learned. She talks about it only when refering to Nihilus and the Exile and says that they have it, nobody else is ever mentioned. I don't know if she literally said that they are the only two but it was implied at the very least.

Now Kreia could have the power yes, its a possibility she sure as hell has a lot of power, but I seriously doubt it. I see no evidence for it at all, and I can't think of a reason for why she would have it either.

She says that the Sith assassins are like lesser versions of Nihilus. Nihilus is what each of those assassins could become.

She says that? When how? Do you have a quote? Preferably of the entire conversation.

No, she does say that. If you have the influence, question her about the sith and their natures. Be sure to ask about Nihilus. She does say that. Nihilus is merely the pinnacle of the Malachor V Sith teachings. Obviously the technique that is taught is the ability to drain the Force from the others. But what the exile and Nihilus have are extremes of a learned ability. In particular, theirs is different because of their natures. And they are stark opposites- The Exile forms passive bonds with people, while Nihilus drains them dry, even over time, poisoning their shells before leaving them devoid of will and life. So Kreia is not lying when she says that Nihilus' powers cannoy be learned; she's being honest. No one has achieved those powers aside from the Exile and his shade, Nihilus.

And note that while the Sith assassins, as Kreia notes, grow in power because they feed off of nearby Force user's powers, they do not actually drain or kill them by doing so. Only Kreia, their now undisputed master, can use the ability to such an extreme. And still she is a step or five below the exile and Nihilus.

True.

This is an interesting theory indeed.

ohh okay that would explain. Don't remember ever hearing that, but then again its been some time since I played Kotor 2. Oh well at least it makes sence and it doesn't destroy any of my theory's about Nihilus.

It's all I can think of. While I did like the twist that Kreia used the Exile to kill all the jedi at once, and it does make a lot of sense... There was still room left for Kreia to do the ability herself. And I think they did that on purpose.

Yes, what didn't make sense was Kreia's sentient holocron in Atris' chamber.

Say again? I don't recall that at this moment.

Is there any differances in the game storyline if you play as a male as opposed to a female? Because I played as a female(only for the Atton diolouges which were hilarious)and I hate KOTOR 2 as it is. The gameplay is to much like KOTOR 1 and the cut ending ruined the whole experience for me.

Yes, it is different. Play it again.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Say again? I don't recall that at this moment.

When you have defeated Atris, that Holocron that talks to you.

Hm. Wasn't it a recording of Traya? All I remember about that scene is the sith holocrons, which talk backwards in English.

It responded to your questions, unless Traya used her clairvoyance to program it to say that.

She could have just put a phone down there and put the speaker function on.

lmao!

No really, I don't recall that at all.

All it tells you is that Nihilus is going to attack Telos.

It must be reflective of a dialogue option... I don't recall it. But yeah, good question. Then again, Kreia did come to Atris and tell her they had "work to do". She may have laid a trap for the Exile to confront and kill Atris, his past, and Nihilus, his past self, and then to come full circle and to confront his mentor, the betrayer.

Although Atris was Darth Traya for a few minutes.

Plus if you were female in the cut ending, Atris would have become Darth Traya instead of Kreia.

So what happens to Kreia in that ending? She just... retire?

Yep.

You should see the Evil Atris outfit. She looks like the Witch out of the Lion, Witch and the wardrobe.

Actually, I have seen it. pcmods.com

You visit Pcgamemods too?

Quite a bit. Mods keep me replaying games. I particularly like the Arena mod for KOTOR II.

Yeah, I had Traya pwn Atris and her handmaidens. And then Vandar beat up Nihilus!

Nihlus owned when I watched the fight.

Ah well, Vash owned Atris and Tobin butchered a load of storm beasts.

Every time I bet on anyone I lost, so just askme beforehand and I'll vote for the wrong team.

How did we get to this?

I thought we were debating about Revan versus Traya!

I still say Traya pwns. I have nothing to suggest that Revan would win in a straight fight.

Yep, Traya trained Revan. Plus he recognised her power enough to go back to her, not Zhar, not Kae, not anyone.

The mods pwn.

Kreia left the Jedi she knew what he needed.

and Janus, ever heard of a lightsaber? I have no reason to assume Kreia is so powerful that she can defeat Revan with the force alone. She doesn't stand a chance in a lightsaber fight.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Quite a bit. Mods keep me replaying games. I particularly like the Arena mod for KOTOR II.


What is that arena mod, sounds intresting. How do I get it?

www.pcgamesmods.com I think or something thereabouts. It's for the PC version.

And Fishy, refresh my memory on all the specifics that point to Revan being -clearly- superior to Kreia? Not being sarcastic... just... I want to see where you're coming from.

www.pcgamemods.com

Originally posted by Lord Janus
www.pcgamesmods.com I think or something thereabouts. It's for the PC version.

And Fishy, refresh my memory on all the specifics that point to Revan being -clearly- superior to Kreia? Not being sarcastic... just... I want to see where you're coming from.

Clearly? Well nothing really.

Lightsaber wise, well I won't have to point those out... You know them

Force wise, I don't think the difference is that great. I mean we know what Kreia her greatest attack was and I doubt she did that on her own. Even if she did we have know way of knowing if it can be blocked or not, and we do know that Revan would see an attack like that coming. A lightsaber will probably block the attack.

We also know that Revan learned incredibly fast and was great with the force so even if he was weaker with the force the difference would not be that great. And we also know that a minor difference in the force won't make somebody defeat the other when lightsabers are still around.

Kreia simply can not defeat somebody with the force when that somebody comes close to her in force powers. Nobody can.

I must agree with Fishy. I just cant see Kreia waving her hand and making Revan dropping over dead like that. True she may have dominated Sion easily enough...but Revan is far more powerful, manipultive and cunning than Sion.

Originally posted by Darth Zayzia
I must agree with Fishy. I just cant see Kreia waving her hand and making Revan dropping over dead like that. True she may have dominated Sion easily enough...but Revan is far more powerful, manipultive and cunning than Sion.

Perhaps so. But we know little of Revan as it is - only from in-game battles and events, which are ridiculous as it is. Why, you may ask. Well, for example. In game battles - a swipe from an opponent's lightsaber will only cause minimal damage - as well as the fact that somehow, the powerful laser capable of melting steel can't sever FLESH.

In game battles can't and should never be counted.

But yes, I DOUBT Revan will be done away with so easily. However, Revan's manipulation is pathetic when you compare his skills to the likes of Kreia, Sidious, and Ragnos. All three are far above him in manipulative skill. And cunning? Well, Kreia's at least his equal.

Revan will just have to be flat out stronger than Kreia to beat her. She's possibly of greater intellect than he.

Right, but you are right now taking Revan down to the very limits of what we know and not applying any kind of logic to it.

Revan learned a lot, thats for sure everybody says it. Meaning he learned a lot, how much that is we don't know. But its more then Bastila learned thats for sure otherwise he wouldn't be famous for it. Probably a considerable amount more. Why would he be considered a great learner if he did not?

We have heard about his pre-cog and its said thats its better then that of the greatest Echani, who could use it to predict entire wars. Meaning we know that his pre-cog is great, superior to almost any if not all other. Meaning he will be far more likely to see how a fight will go then anybody else. Now against Kreia its going to be even easier to predict because he knows Kreia too, he would know how she fights.

I have nothing on when Kreia joined the Dark Side but I heard somewhere (possibly from you) that this was after the Mandelorian wars. I am not sure however. Meaning Kreia at most got six to seven months more of Dark Side training then Revan did. If its true at least, and if it is then Revan would probably know as much about the Dark Side. I seriously doubt its true, but its a point to consider anyway.

Experience we know that Revan killed those people, we can only assume he did it in a impressive fight with them otherwise the Mandelorians and the Echani would not consider it a good thing and nobody especially not those two groups would consider Revan to be a better fighter. You know this as well as I do. The Echani would never have accepted hundreds of people kicking their leader just to have Revan finish him off. About Kreia outsmarting Revan?

You honestly think that will happen? Kreia is brilliant, so is Revan. He learned from the best and she in turn probably learned from him as well. All in all those two would both be brilliant and great fighters, why would she be able to outsmart Revan when there is no indication at all that he is a weak or stupid fighter. If anything based on his personality he is a great fighter.

About Kreia her lightsaber style, your point being? She could have used any form before the start of Kotor II, maybe she used Ataru. She might have changed at the start of Kotor II I wouldn't be surprised at all, and if thats the case then she is officialy screwed against Revan in a lightsaber fight. Now we have no way of knowing what form she used, but the chances are six against one that she used a form other then Makashi.

And he wouldn't demolish Kreia, i'm just saying he would beat her. She may have the edge in force powers, but thats all she has got the edge in. She can not and will not defeat him in a lightsaber fight. And even in a fight with force powers, well it would probably be a great fight not easily lost by Revan. Still this fight isn't force only and a lightsaber would be used, Revan would take out Kreia with a lightsaber. No it won't be an easy fight, but i'm sure he will win.

Right, but you are right now taking Revan down to the very limits of what we know and not applying any kind of logic to it.

Like I'd ever do that. But thanks for the vote of confidence.

Revan learned a lot, thats for sure everybody says it. Meaning he learned a lot, how much that is we don't know. But its more then Bastila learned thats for sure otherwise he wouldn't be famous for it. Probably a considerable amount more. Why would he be considered a great learner if he did not?


Yes, and I'm sure Canderous knows more in general about life than Carth does. Or Bastila, since he's nearly fifty years old, perhaps sixty in the first game alone. You can -assume- that Revan knows much, but you can't prove to me exactly what he knows, and until you can, he will not win through supposed knowledge.


We have heard about his pre-cog and its said thats its better then that of the greatest Echani, who could use it to predict entire wars. Meaning we know that his pre-cog is great, superior to almost any if not all other. Meaning he will be far more likely to see how a fight will go then anybody else. Now against Kreia its going to be even easier to predict because he knows Kreia too, he would know how she fights.

No, this is bullshit. I've played KOTOR II through almost ten times now. The Handmaiden says his battle precognition is the only instance she's seen outside of the Echani, and she does note that it's better than the Exile's, but she never says that it's better than the eldest Echani. Personally, I think what she did say about the eldest Echani is glorified myth.


I have nothing on when Kreia joined the Dark Side but I heard somewhere (possibly from you) that this was after the Mandelorian wars. I am not sure however. Meaning Kreia at most got six to seven months more of Dark Side training then Revan did. If its true at least, and if it is then Revan would probably know as much about the Dark Side. I seriously doubt its true, but its a point to consider anyway.

First, Kreia disappeared during the Mandalorian Wars, presumably looking for Revan. She ended up on Malachor V and became the head of the Sith Academy there. She had much more time to learn and master Sith techniques then he did as he was a general and she was the caretaker of a library of Sith knowledge. We don't know if there was anything or next to nothing at the academy (Although there was something if people stayed for years there) and we also don't know how much she learned (although we know she has shown considerably strong and unique force talents.) Revan, again, hasn't shown us anything he's learned from Malachor V or Korriban... yet. He could possibly, but as of now we know next to nothign of his Sith force magics.



Experience we know that Revan killed those people, we can only assume he did it in a impressive fight with them otherwise the Mandelorians and the Echani would not consider it a good thing and nobody especially not those two groups would consider Revan to be a better fighter. You know this as well as I do. The Echani would never have accepted hundreds of people kicking their leader just to have Revan finish him off. About Kreia outsmarting Revan?

Ah, and here it comes. We have to -assume-. And again there is nothing concrete here to go upon, other then reputation, as I said. But reputation can be distorted. No one ever said specifically that Revan's prowess in battle against either Mandalore nor Yusanis was notable. It is entirely possible that it was mention just to add more accomplishments to his belt. Bio Ware successfully made a Sith supervillain without giving him a single lightsaber duel to show for it. And by all evidence we do see, the duel between Malak and Revan was supposed to be epic, meaning it was not a five second ordeal. Unless evan was seriously toying with Malak (Which I doubt) I could just as easily assume that Revan was closer to Malak's level then well above it. And Malak could kill an echani leader and a Mandalorian one, I don't doubt, as he was very capable in battle.



You honestly think that will happen? Kreia is brilliant, so is Revan. He learned from the best and she in turn probably learned from him as well. All in all those two would both be brilliant and great fighters, why would she be able to outsmart Revan when there is no indication at all that he is a weak or stupid fighter. If anything based on his personality he is a great fighter.

Look at Obi-Wan versus Anakin- Obi-Wan was the mentor, wiser and obviously a bit smarter. He won the fight not through superior skill or talent with a blade. If anything, he kept himself alive by constantly giving ground and by using the environment. True, the same emotion and single minded drive won't be a factor with Revan, but the point is Kreia's trained Sith and Jedi, and she's had a lifetime of experience. She is very very dangerous, even to Revan. He -could- win, if I assume he is as good as we all hope he is... But from an argument standpoint, that's not enough.



About Kreia her lightsaber style, your point being? She could have used any form before the start of Kotor II, maybe she used Ataru. She might have changed at the start of Kotor II I wouldn't be surprised at all, and if thats the case then she is officialy screwed against Revan in a lightsaber fight. Now we have no way of knowing what form she used, but the chances are six against one that she used a form other then Makashi.

I was merely musing on the point about Makashi. The real issue here is we don't know which one she used, though we can make a guess based on her comments on each in KOTOR II. She liked Makashi, but stressed caution with it. Note that Kreia is familar with all the styles, even if she doesn't neccessarily practice them. This means that regardless of which form she uses, it's unlikely that Revan (even using Makashi) will have a significant advantage over her. Also, I pointed out Makashi because she does have one hand from that point on. Unless she learned to fight totally different and still used principles from another form (Which is possible) it would make sense that she adopted Makashi to make the most of her single arm in combat. It's speculation, not my ultimate drive home point. Relax.



And he wouldn't demolish Kreia, i'm just saying he would beat her. She may have the edge in force powers, but thats all she has got the edge in. She can not and will not defeat him in a lightsaber fight. And even in a fight with force powers, well it would probably be a great fight not easily lost by Revan. Still this fight isn't force only and a lightsaber would be used, Revan would take out Kreia with a lightsaber. No it won't be an easy fight, but i'm sure he will win.

You're entitled to your opinion, but you don't have a shred of evidence to support -either- of them in lightsaber combat, only assumptions. Same here. However, Kreia has a welath more of experience and massive Force powers, enough to kill three jedi masters. And about that, you suggested that she was channeling it through the exile, which I thought might be true. But I've been thinking, that power should be specific to the Exile alone. Even if she tried to channel it, it would consume here... unless she had sufficient knowledge and mastery of it already to use it without hurting herself. She surely didn't hesitate with it. It came instantly. For now, I'm going with the simplest answer, which is probably the correct one- Kreia can use that technique. I think your theory was good and worth noting, but there's so many unanswered questions...

With both of them..

But Janus seriously... Lets just look at Revan his fights okay.

We know that he cut through many masters in the temple of ancients, how many we do not know we know he did go through them though and there had to be a few of them. We know he managed to get through the star forge and he killed droids on which Malak said

"Strange I did not think there were any in the order that would survive an attack of the Star Forge droids" or something like that. Obviously he thought everybody would die. Revan survived, meaning that either Malak heavily overestimates the droids or that Revan was more powerful then anybody in the order.

Now the fight with Malak himself, we know Revan cut through a lot of people after constant fighting. This was going to be hard and probably made him tired. We know he defeated Malak at least twice, so we know that even a probably weakened and tired Revan was more powerful then Malak. Now if he was tired the fight between him and Malak that he won fair and square by being better (otherwise Malak would not admit defeat like he did) can't be that good of an indication. We would just know that even a tired Revan would be better then the guy that beat Kavar. Who was one of the if not the most powerful Master of the Order. Meaning that Revan was more powerful then even the most powerful master in the order. Now of course he could have been in a perfect condition which could mean two things

- Revan and Malak really were close in power
- Revan was toying with Malak.

Knowing what we do about Revan the second seems to be absolute bullshit, so he they were close in power. If what Malak says is true and it probably has some truth in it, then it would mean that he is more powerful then any master in the order, probably by a fair amount.

Revan still took Malak down twice in a row.

Yeah you are right we don't know anything about the fight, and i'm not accusing you of anything here but I really do have the feeling you don't want to assume anything. Yeah you are right I don't have facts to show Revan has a chance against Kreia. But I can make a lot of supported assumptions. With people like Revan its all we have. Same goes for Ragnos who by all facts is nothing compared to Kreia but with all logical assumptions would own pretty much everybody.

No Janus, the assumptions have a good basis. Have you seen the Star Forge Revan could not have sneaked past that.

Revan would have faced Jedi on the Star Forge and in the Temple of ancients, its pretty clear the Rakatan describe the place as to be filled with Dark Jedi, now of course they couldn't be sure but they probably based it on something. Revan would have faced people there and not just a few. The star forge was under attack the Dark Jedi paid attention to what was going on, and there are some breaks in the game where we see Dark Jedi charging Revan.

He fought at least 15 easily just by those scenes. And that doesn't even say anything about the one's he would most likely have faced. No denying that, play the Star Forge level again if you doubt it. But there are several times when Revan would have had no choice but to fight Dark Jedi.

And how is what Malak said unsupported bullshit Spawned by poor logic? I agree Malak may be lying but he would not act as surprised as he did or as scared as he did if it did not have a basis of truth. He also send out the apprentices with only one goal find and kill Revan. Now those guys would have guarded the turbo lifts, hell they did those were the most dangerous parts of the Star Forge.

We also know that Malak made Revan fight a bunch of other droids right after Revan defeated three of the most powerful sith on the star forge except for Malak or Bastila. We know Revan fought a lot more then you are willing to admit in that post.

And don't accuse me of being like ER, I am not saying Revan will win this without any doubt. I am not saying Revan is superior to Kreia with the force, I do not even believe so. All I am saying is that Revan has a really good chance against here based on a lot of things that are certain. All drawn from text in the game, yeah okay they weren't movies. But it was still used and you can still draw conclusions from that. Revan his fights although not shown were won because he was better and he did face a lot of opponents, the guy knew how to wield a lightsaber.

And if that isn't enough consider this.

Malak was said to be the best lightsaber duellist in the order second to only one Revan. Malak was a legendaric dueller and a front line general in two wars and had seen a lot of fights. Still Revan was better. It has to mean something. Logic just dictates that he is a great duellist and powerful with the force.

Here we go again.


No Janus, the assumptions have a good basis. Have you seen the Star Forge Revan could not have sneaked past that.

Uh, the Star Forge is filled with goons just like any other area in the game. Am I to expect that Revan single handedly fought every enemy in the game, and that each enemy was so strong they must be considered and Revan must therefore be great? Or better yet, should I just go play Jedi Academy and say that Jaden was better since he killed mobs of people, dark jedi, and even fought an incarnation of Ragnos' spirit in someone else's body? The assumptions are too VAGUE to support themselves.

Revan would have faced Jedi on the Star Forge and in the Temple of ancients, its pretty clear the Rakatan describe the place as to be filled with Dark Jedi, now of course they couldn't be sure but they probably based it on something. Revan would have faced people there and not just a few. The star forge was under attack the Dark Jedi paid attention to what was going on, and there are some breaks in the game where we see Dark Jedi charging Revan.

First off, you have no idea at this point of knowing how Revan confronted anyone in the game, much less the dark jedi. He could have snuck past them, distracted them, killed them with a toothpick, whatever. But my point is you don't have a damn thing to base his skill off of. Like I said, in ROTJ the game, Luke kills jawas and womprats and mynocks all day long, along with stormtroopers. Jaden in Jedi Academy kills dark jedi like it's his job, and he's a weak jedi knight. You might want to consider, as I told ER, that the enemies are primarily for gameplay's sake and not to say "omfg revan killz dudez lol". Sick and ****ing tired of hearing how great revan is because he has his own game. It's like Anakin must be god because he has his own movies. Jesus.

Second point, you don't even know who was on the Star Forge with Revan. It could have easilybeen the entire crew of the Ebon Hawk, not counting the jedi assault teams. How does this make Revan great? Why would these battles tire him? If he is the "Heart of the Force", why would he grow tired? No, that doesn't add up.



He fought at least 15 easily just by those scenes. And that doesn't even say anything about the one's he would most likely have faced. No denying that, play the Star Forge level again if you doubt it. But there are several times when Revan would have had no choice but to fight Dark Jedi.

No, he didn't. Even if they charged him, he could have leapt over them, run on, used the Force to shove some off of those walkways, etc. It's never proved that he physically fought each and everyone. Period. And he had -many- choices. If he's as smart as you claim he is, why would he be forced into so many confrontations?

And how is what Malak said unsupported bullshit Spawned by poor logic? I agree Malak may be lying but he would not act as surprised as he did or as scared as he did if it did not have a basis of truth. He also send out the apprentices with only one goal find and kill Revan. Now those guys would have guarded the turbo lifts, hell they did those were the most dangerous parts of the Star Forge.

"Knowing what we do about Revan the second seems to be absolute bullshit, so he they were close in power. If what Malak says is true and it probably has some truth in it, then it would mean that he is more powerful then any master in the order, probably by a fair amount. "

That's what you said, and it was unsupported bullshit. Revan is not explicitly or even implicitly better than all the jedi masters of the order. you jumped to this conclusion by saying that Malak beat Kavar and Kavar is somehow the best the order has, and Revan beat Malak, therefore he must be better than Kavar who is the best in the order. It's bullshit. You don't even know how Kavar lost to Malak, period. You're assuming on an assumption!

We also know that Malak made Revan fight a bunch of other droids right after Revan defeated three of the most powerful sith on the star forge except for Malak or Bastila. We know Revan fought a lot more then you are willing to admit in that post.

Uh, right. Just above you stated that certain areas of the Star Forge were dangerous. Youa re of course, using a gameplay mechanic to reference this, but let me use some of your own medicine to work through your logic here. Those droids were ****ing easy as hell. Does this mean they sucked? Or could it be that game play difficulty has NO bearing on the events as they actually occured? Or how about this... Just how strong are those three anyways? Are they better than Bandon? They sure are harder to defeat in game. Then why would Bandon be picked over them to be the next Sith Lord if they are individually more difficult in game? Oh right... game play experience, mechancis, and assumptions are all null and void in a debate where we use some grounded facts to find out things.

And don't accuse me of being like ER, I am not saying Revan will win this without any doubt. I am not saying Revan is superior to Kreia with the force, I do not even believe so. All I am saying is that Revan has a really good chance against here based on a lot of things that are certain. All drawn from text in the game, yeah okay they weren't movies. But it was still used and you can still draw conclusions from that. Revan his fights although not shown were won because he was better and he did face a lot of opponents, the guy knew how to wield a lightsaber.

Actually, you're arguing until you're blue in the face when you have nothing to go on, just like ER. I personally think you're a much better debater than he was, but from what I'm seeing, you can be just like him. And you cannot effectively draw ANY conclusions on lightsaber skill or technique based on the game as you've put it. The respective lightsaber talents of both parties will remain inconclusive until there is (assuming there ever will be) a canon stated preference for both.

And if that isn't enough consider this.

Malak was said to be the best lightsaber duellist in the order second to only one Revan. Malak was a legendaric dueller and a front line general in two wars and had seen a lot of fights. Still Revan was better. It has to mean something. Logic just dictates that he is a great duellist and powerful with the force.

First off, where specifically does it say Malak was the best lightsaber duellist in the Order? Where does it say Malak was legendary? Where does it say specifically that he's a front line general? You could be very right on these points, and I've held similar views myself, but if you're going to put these up like they're fact, I want some cited sources I can double check. And then I want one where it says that Kreia's lightsaber skills are so far beneath Malak's that she could never posisbly hold her on in combat against Revan. THEN I'll believe the argument you have here.

First of all...

I am talking about a few Jedi not a shit load of them. I have never said he faced the hundreds he did, I am saying he faced at least 15. I never said how he killed them, just saying that he killed them. If he used the force or not hardly matters. And the only that could have been powerful enough to help him in those fights was Bastila. Jolee and Juhani were nice but not powerful enough the rest are none force users and won't be good enough to defeat a lot of Dark Jedi. And Revan could not walk around them, they locked the door

And no those apprentices were weaker then Bandon, hell they probably weren't even the most powerful under Malak. Just on the Star Forge at that time. I am not talking about gameplay experiences here, just about certain quotes and things that were forced to happen in the game.

But let me just put those things in a list... Maybe it will work

- Malak is said (by I believe Zhar) to be the best duellist in the order second only to Revan. I think Zaj Kal Ell confirms it on Nar Shardaa but I'm not sure. Anyways i'm going to start playing Kotor again soon, i'll give you some exact quotes.

- Carth Onasi says he's a front line general, I believe Zhar and Vrook do too. Again i'm not sure i'll tell you the exact quotes when I play the game again.

Point is, i've heard it i'm sure of that. I don't remember where exactly. But Malak was the best Revan wa sbetter. We know it took a lot of power to control the Star Forge, as only two people could do it. Maybe some of the Jedi Masters but we don't know. What we do know however is that Malak and Revan would be above the rest by a reasonable amount during their reign to control the Star Forge.

Nobody could do it after both of them were gone meaning that the Star Forge was sabotaged as you have argued before, which I find very unlikely or that just nobody was powerful enough. Not saying anything specific about Revan his force powers but at least that it was good.

Now we have quotes on his lightsaber skills, and well I can argue until i'm dead about those fights but you want pure facts, I'll take the assumptions because I think they show enough. At least in this case. But tell you what, lets just drop this for now. I'll come back when I have the exact quotes and we can continue the debate then.

I think the most fitting death for Revan would be in battle. I can imagine a scene were Revan goes into battle against impossible odds knowing he is going to die yet gives it his all taking down hundreds of enemies with him.

Double Post sorry.

Now when I think about it...any vs battle with Revan is almost like a vs battle with Tulak Hord or Anjuna Pall. We simply don't no enought about him. IMO Revan would defeat Kreia, but hey this is only my opinon and my opinon is most likley warped from Revan being my favorate character so don't take my opinon seriosuly. I just have a hard time seeing Kreia waving her hand and making Revan drop dead. In a way I think Revan is both overestimated and underestimated. We have people like ER saying that Revan could defeat Ragnos which is pure crap. Ragnos would waste Revan with a flick of his hand. Then we have other people who claim Revan could be weak and defeated by Mace Windu because everything we know about him is based on assumtion and that just drives me nuts. Hell most of the stuff we use to debate is based on assumtion. Call me stupid and maybe I am, but this is what I am seeing.

And that's why we have to make solid, final decisions based on what we do know, and point out that there are things we don't know.

But instead on this damn forum, people's minds change like a kid's shitty diapers. I mean, most people don't question the decision reached regarding Ragnos' power until it concerns someone they don't want to admit is inferior. Then suddenly theres a huge uproar, and despite evidence and logic to the contrary, people will try to detract. I'm seeing a lot of bias on this forum against Exar Kun as well, Assajj Ventress, Grievious even. And yet people like ROTJ Luke are getting a virtual handjob and a cake from all their fans, Revan can take anyone, without any evidence of skill... Mace is better than Dooku, who's better than Yoda who's better than Sidious who lived in the house that Jack built. I mean, this place has suddenly lost it's mind. I'm more than a little tired of this circular reasoning crap. I'm debating on giving KMC a break.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
And that's why we have to make solid, final decisions based on what we do know, and point out that there are things we don't know.

But instead on this damn forum, people's minds change like a kid's shitty diapers. I mean, most people don't question the decision reached regarding Ragnos' power until it concerns someone they don't want to admit is inferior. Then suddenly theres a huge uproar, and despite evidence and logic to the contrary, people will try to detract. I'm seeing a lot of bias on this forum against Exar Kun as well, Assajj Ventress, Grievious even. And yet people like ROTJ Luke are getting a virtual handjob and a cake from all their fans, Revan can take anyone, without any evidence of skill... Mace is better than Dooku, who's better than Yoda who's better than Sidious who lived in the house that Jack built. I mean, this place has suddenly lost it's mind. I'm more than a little tired of this circular reasoning crap. I'm debating on giving KMC a break.

You make a good point...these forums are going down the toobs.

I come to KMC now only to discuss stuff with my internet friends (if such a word can be used to describe having a conversation with someone who could be a rapist making himself out to be some cool dude. I mean for all I know Janus you may be some sick bastard who kidnapps little children-no offense intended.

...

No, I'm pretty well adjusted. I don't do anything twisted like that. But uh... thanks for making that an issue.

For all I know you could be a forty year old ex con who skins cats and wears their faces. But I'm not particularly worried about that, since it doesn't effect me.

...............................affect, not effect............................................I'm gonna get shot for doing that one day.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
...

No, I'm pretty well adjusted. I don't do anything twisted like that. But uh... thanks for making that an issue.

For all I know you could be a forty year old ex con who skins cats and wears their faces. But I'm not particularly worried about that, since it doesn't effect me.

I was thinking of a friend of mine when I was typing up that post. His younger sister has an internet relationship with some guy who claims he is from Pensylavnia. Totaly blind to the realities of this cruel world she is obsessed with someone she has never met. The dude already sent her $50 to her when he has never even met her face to face!

but anyways...I wasn't saying that I believed that you were a rapist. I hope I did not offend you or something its just...we teenagers tend to speak first and think later.

I wonder how good of a team Revan and Kreia would make...

One hell of a team....

Don't know, never even heard of those two fighting together. They probably did a few times but most of their important fights were probably alone. Still the two are both dangerous and powerful I woudln't like to face either one of them.

And Janus on our debate, one thing I just need to say about that

What I was doing was trying to proof something other people said to be true.

I heard in Kotor that Revan was the greatest of his time.
He could not have been that without a good reason.
All I was doing was trying to give you possibility's on why they said that.

If you would forget about Revan being called the greatest then what I said is pure bullshit and unsupported based on nothing. If you remember that, then drawing the conclusions I did are very likely.

Where did you hear this? I don't ever remember this being said by anyone.

i took on the role on kotor2 in which you dont get to see this power of kreiaas. can you fill me in on what it is, when she did it, who she did it against, how long it took her, how much energy did she have to put in and how powerful it was.