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I made a thread similar to this one a long time ago. In KOTOR, you can go to Naga's tomb, but it is the only one with no body inside. Naga also went to Yavin IV. He stayed their in suspended animation for 600 years before Nadd let him out. He then taught Nadd Ancient Sith Magic. Some people believe Nadd killed Sadow, but this doesn't seem likely. Do you think Naga is actually buried in an unexplored part of the tomb made to him, killed on Yavin IV, or still alive? If you have any other thoughts on this, please say them.

Know that I think about it, it doesn't make sense. Naga Sadow fled to Yavin lV with his Masassi after he was defeated in the war. He supposedly died there and was never seen from again. Maybe the tomb on Korriban was more of a monument to his memory the Sith built before they went completely extinct.

Or maybe it's just a flaw in the Editorial process.

Marka Ragnos, Tulak Hord and Ajunta Pall's tombs did not have bodies in them either.

The tomb of Ludo Kressh and Freddon Nadd did however.

Ya know it is spelled MarkO Ragnos, not MarkA.

No, no it's Marka Ragnos. Your spelling is a... flaw in the editorial process.

And Dimmamar brings up an excellent point- not all the 'tombs' had bodies. In fact, the only thing we have to indicate that they are meant to house bodies are the sarcophagi. Was there one in Sadow's tomb? If not, it could simply be a temple built in the area to celebrate a Sith lord who was thought dead in the Hyperspace War.

Play KOTOR again, go up to the tomb door, and look at the spelling, talk to ppl around the tomb, and listen for their pronounciation and spelling in the subtitles. It's spelled with an O.

Tell me then. Why does when you do a google search, if you type in MarkO it tries to correct it to Marka.

Because it thinks that how you spell it.

(baby voice) But I thought that KOTOR was Canon?

It is, kinda. Don't whisper that around Ush or he'll sic the chinchillas on you.

But it may very well be a typo of sorts. Every source I've seen uses Marka, even the comics.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
It is, kinda. Don't whisper that around Ush or he'll sic the chinchillas on you.

But it may very well be a typo of sorts. Every source I've seen uses Marka, even the comics.

Ush? Chinchillas? He doesn't have permission. I run the ChinArmy {tm}.

Perhaps they were not meant to be mausoleums, but monuments to the Dark Lords themselves?

Originally posted by Lord Janus
It is, kinda. Don't whisper that around Ush or he'll sic the chinchillas on you.

But it may very well be a typo of sorts. Every source I've seen uses Marka, even the comics. Probably is just a typo in the game, one used repeatedly in the game, but nonehteless. I've actually never read any book or comic concerning Marko, or Marka-----whatever.

No, KOTOR is not remotely canon. There is no leeway for the canonicity of EU, no matter how much anyone wishes it.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, KOTOR is not remotely canon. There is no leeway for the canonicity of EU, no matter how much anyone wishes it. Yeah, never did think too much of the storyline anyway. Too many--well it was...you know where I'm going with this.

Anyone read the TOTJ comics about Naga sadow?

Originally posted by Tangible God
Probably is just a typo in the game, one used repeatedly in the game, but nonehteless. I've actually never read any book or comic concerning Marko, or Marka-----whatever.

No, it was "Marka" Ragnos in the TOTJ comics, which were published long before KotOR.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, KOTOR is not remotely canon. There is no leeway for the canonicity of EU, no matter how much anyone wishes it.

Why would it be in the Databank if it were not canon? I think that you are mistaken there.

Don't argue Ush on this one. It'll end in a quick retort and a closed thread. Let's avoid arguing canon issues, since it seems that this is a cardinal sin here at KMC. Even if we apply it only to our own debates, like we do over in the Versus Thread.

Isn't that rather arrogant and petty? I'm merely raising a valid issue.

Originally posted by Dimmimar
Isn't that rather arrogant and petty? I'm merely raising a valid issue.

It is, but rules are rules.


And it is MARKA Ragnos. Go read the comics, boys.

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, it was "Marka" Ragnos in the TOTJ comics, which were published long before KotOR. See, that's the problem, I never know what to believe. The older one, or the more popular one.

Originally posted by Sorgo
It is, but rules are rules.


And it is MARKA Ragnos. Go read the comics, boys.

Good sorgo, atleast you understand. I played the game and beat it again and again and everytime I go past the tomb it spells Marka Ragnos and she says marka ragnos

Originally posted by Sorgo
It is, but rules are rules.


And it is MARKA Ragnos. Go read the comics, boys.

Not at all arrogant, so don't say that Ush is being so. He's right. It's been discussed to death, but no one ever seems to catch on and jumps on the EU fanboy band wagon.

But, it is Marka Ragnos, not Marko. Simple mistake.

Originally posted by Darth Nhilus
Good sorgo, atleast you understand. I played the game and beat it again and again and everytime I go past the tomb it spells Marka Ragnos and she says marka ragnos Really? Every time I play it, it says Marko Ragnos, and they all say Marko.

Then they made a mistake with your copy...?

So far, we have not seen any sources refer to him as Marko.

I dunno, I've played with three different discs(Yeah, I know) and on about half a dozen stations, and they all say Marko. I took the time to check.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Not at all arrogant, so don't say that Ush is being so. He's right. It's been discussed to death, but no one ever seems to catch on and jumps on the EU fanboy band wagon.

But, it is Marka Ragnos, not Marko. Simple mistake.

Not a single person here said Ush was "Arrogant", unless you are referring to another member. Either that or you assume i was being arrogant.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Really? Every time I play it, it says Marko Ragnos, and they all say Marko.

Perhaps it is an older copy and fixed in the newer ones? I know Morrowind worked that way a lot.

Also in my copy Mission's voice is different than my friend Ray's, and that's just weird.

There probably is an ubdated one, mine came with the Xbox when i got it, and my Pc one followed shortly after. That means my versions are ones that came out first.

Yeah I could never buy KoTOR had to play it at rays house but I just bought it a couple weeks ago and have beat it 3 times since :P, but I think that's probably the problem.

Originally posted by Dimmimar
Isn't that rather arrogant and petty? I'm merely raising a valid issue.

To which you replied...

Originally posted by Sorgo
It is, but rules are rules.

I'm not THAT insane.

Then again, I've been doing homework all day and I'm severely tired, you could have meant 'It is a valid issue.' My apologies if that is what you meant, it just reads wrong, because 'It is' could apply to both parts of the sentence...

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Don't argue Ush on this one. It'll end in a quick retort and a closed thread. Let's avoid arguing canon issues, since it seems that this is a cardinal sin here at KMC. Even if we apply it only to our own debates, like we do over in the Versus Thread.

I think she was refering to this in a way, too. Apparently, we can't speak two words about the comics if we mention 'canon'. That just lights the fire and from what I've personally seen ends to closed threads and Ush putting his foot down.

It's one thing for a forum or mods to have a stance-fine, whatever... but since when does every single person have to go along and believe that Ush's or your definition or even Raz's definition of canon sticks? I mean, in the long run, I could say that darth Jawa Janus is canon and the progenitor of the Sith race, and I'd just be full of it. That's either totally obvious or people will figure it out with a bit of checking on their part. But is it a serious concern that every member here at KMC abide by the forum's stance on (especially) the comics? I don't see anyone closing down Versus threads because they contain comic characters or even ridiculous ideas (1.000.000.000 nuclear missiles versus the Death Star comes to mind) and there's an SS dupe every other new member... but I don't see those breaches getting the smack down.

Just saying, is there some compelling reason why we must -not- call the SW comics canon? Even quasi-canon, which was to my understanding most of EU that applies to the continuity. I mean, lots of information that is in the comics is used in novels and games. I don't see anyone burning villages over those yet. Well, outside of the movie sections.

It's when people start to argue what is and isn't canon that Ush begins smack-downs. For example, Nactous' 'Movies vs. EU' threads and his other 'EU is canon!' argument. Those are despised. You can't argue what is and isn't canon, only George Lucas and co. can argue that.

KMC maintains that rule so that people don't try to use 'Dark Empire' or 'Knights of the Old Republic' to settle their arguments. There are people who don't seem to understand the different between the movies and EU.

EU is canon when it doesn't contradict the movies though. If nothing goes against it, it stands. I don't care what you mods say on this(I care about other stuff you guys say.... a little ).

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
EU is canon when it doesn't contradict the movies though. If nothing goes against it, it stands. I don't care what you mods say on this(I care about other stuff you guys say.... a little ).

And that's exactly what Ush likes to smack-down.

Not canon unless Lucas says it is, he could trample all of EU if he wanted to.

Originally posted by Captain REX
And that's exactly what Ush likes to smack-down.

Not canon unless Lucas says it is, he could trample all of EU if he wanted to. And after thine trampling hath occured, the Fair Lucasman would be held forever as God in the eyes of mortals of doth land of Portugal, and eternal peace would last in the land of Youth, Tiernanog.

Amen.

I always thought that the EU was one level below the "G" canon. If it contradicts the films it becomes "S" canon and the only non-canon is the "N" canon.

The only sources in which marka ragnos appeared was in TOTJ, and was clearly called Marka ragnos, and he was called Marka in the light side ending of Jedi Knights: Jedi Acadamy.

Now, i thought this thread was about Naga Sadow?...

Yes, I think we should go back on topic.

Well, the topic of the thread is why does Naga Sadow have a tomb when he left for Yavin and never returned to Korriban after becoming top dog. Until someone confirms that there is indeed a sarcophagus in Sadow's tomb, we don't know for sure if he was ever meant to be buried there. I don't have my copy of KOTOR I handy, since I lent it out.

I think that you can compare this to Ancient Egypt. Pharoahs built tombs/pyramids before they were killed.

I was just thinking that.

Some tombs would be finished before their supposed occupents died, so they could be empty.

That doesn't explain Tulak Hord, Ajunta Pall and Marka Ragnos.

There was mumified corpse's in the other three tombs in KOTOR 1 and in the tombs and KOTOR 2. I think it's strange he had no tomb. I also don't see how they recovered Ludo's body. Didn't his ship explode?

There were not corpses in the other tombs in Kotor I.

True, Ludo's body should have been unsalvageable. Let's chalk it up to inconsistancy.

I also wonder about Marka's very different tombs between Jedi Academy and KOTOR. I must say that I perfer the JA one.

Different game mechanics, obviously. Tattooine doesn't look that much like Tatooine in Galaxies to me, but in KOTOR I it looks pretty convincing. At least, inside the city of ANchorhead.

Yes, about him. Neat guy wasn't he?

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Different game mechanics, obviously. Tattooine doesn't look that much like Tatooine in Galaxies to me, but in KOTOR I it looks pretty convincing. At least, inside the city of ANchorhead.

Anchorhead is a city though. It can be expected to look different after 4000 years. Korriban was basicly abandoned for a long time. And it's harder to move around stuff made of solid million ton stones than it is to move adobe houses.

Again, they're games. They are made by different developers for different gameplay and for different goals. They don't have to correspond.

Lucas needs to lay down some law with these games develpoers(or at least hire someone else to do it).

What he should have done was had the motivation and drive to lay down laws period, in regards to comic books, novels, games, etc. But he didn't. And because of that we have all sorts of bullcrap to deal with.

Yeah, like Taris. You're supposed to have gone looking all around the planet, according to the scriptures anyway. When really, you move around one block.

If Taris was longer than that one block, I'd never play the game through more than once. I hate Taris.

Competely agree, although maybe it would have been better if it was bigger... Could have been more fun

That's my pet peeve toward KoToR, the areas are tiny. You travers the entire Star Forge in like one Km. Same with the Rakata world.

Yeah, but if it was bigger, it'd be an MMORPG or sixteen discs. Take your pick. And I hated how long you were on a linear path in KOTOR I, not being able to go anywhere or even wield a lightsaber for sooo long. It was ridiculous. Made replay value low for me, as opposed to KOTOR II. Paragus is pretty quick to play through again, as is the space station, and after that it's freedom. But both games should have been longer.

Sixteen Discs, mmmm....

I actually hate KoToR, I hate the areas, I hate the people, I hate alot of the dialogue, it's just the storyline that captures my attention. That's why I think Kedi Knight series is better, good storyline AND you get to conrol every action the character makes.

Damn.

I beat KOTOR 1 in nine hours. It was sadenling short.

sadenling????? did someone say retarded????

Shut up and go away, Ogami. Don't be a troll.

woooaaahhhh darth Anus! don't u just wish u were a moderator???

givin people orders!!! u aint nobody fool!!! wasn't even talking to u and u butt in ONCE again!!!

did somebody say troll????

Yes, a Mountain Troll from Ered Luin, half-brother of Jack Nicholson.

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
woooaaahhhh darth Anus! don't u just wish u were a moderator???

givin people orders!!! u aint nobody fool!!! wasn't even talking to u and u butt in ONCE again!!!

did somebody say troll????

Mr. Jackson is waiting for you to come back to him at Neverland Ranch. I suggest when you go there you stay this time.

Originally posted by Ogami Itto
woooaaahhhh darth Anus! don't u just wish u were a moderator???

givin people orders!!! u aint nobody fool!!! wasn't even talking to u and u butt in ONCE again!!!

did somebody say troll????

You again?

Ouch, burn.

There's no way in the world that in the Star Wars Universe, I would regard EU to be canon, BUT I do understand what you guys are trying to get at here. When discussing EU, there needs to be some kind of governing/presiding factor within EU. As in, what is 'canon' (for lack of a better word) *within* EU? I would say that in those situations it comes down to a) its affinity with the movies
b) which came first
and c) the general consensus between EU sources

Originally posted by theredbaron
There's no way in the world that in the Star Wars Universe, I would regard EU to be canon, BUT I do understand what you guys are trying to get at here. When discussing EU, there needs to be some kind of governing/presiding factor within EU. As in, what is 'canon' (for lack of a better word) *within* EU? I would say that in those situations it comes down to a) its affinity with the movies
b) which came first
and c) the general consensus between EU sources "For lack of a better word." Is that your best excuse? Are you demented or am I disturbed? Are you retarded or are you just overjoyed?

But hey, noone is perfect and I guess I stand accused.

No no, canon is a perfectly fine word to use, because the EU has its own canon/continuity. It's only a problem because generally when we say canon, we mean GL's storyline canon, as opposed to EU storyline.

Ogami, cut it out.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No no, canon is a perfectly fine word to use, because the EU has its own canon/continuity. It's only a problem because generally when we say canon, we mean GL's storyline canon, as opposed to EU storyline.

Ogami, cut it out.

I'm glad I am on the same page now.

What I want to know, is if Sadow ever contemplated looking for the 'Star Forge'. The star map WAS in his tomb. Maybe he did, after a quick stop by Yavin. He finally found it, and crashlanded on the Rakata Homeworld, he was then quicly killed by the natives, he died an unmiraculous death on an unnamed world. A sad end for such a great sith...Or maybe his spirit survived, and he possed Malak when Malak and Revan landed on the planet, the plot thickens...

That is a good question. A damn good question. And I'm chalking it up to gaming inconsistancy. There was no reason to assume Naga Sadow was the greatest lord there, there is no reason for him to have a tomb, and there is no reason for a Star Forge to be there. Period.

Well, the Sith clearly had known about it from their founding. Ajunta Pall isn't very forthcoming when you question him about it.

The Star Forge?

Man, I need to replay that game again...

The Star Map in Naga's tomb. He says that he won't betray their greatest secret.

Hm. So I wonder if they will tie this in with the Sith Empire having found the secrets of the Ratakan and ... what? Left known space?

Perhaps, could be a theme in Kotor III.

Ajunta Pall doesn't remember what it is.

The Sith say Sadow is the greatest, now Janus he was. No he was not as powerful as Marka Ragnos but Ragnos although great and powerful did not lead an attack on the Jedi. It was the goal of the Sith at the time when it was said to destroy the Republic. Sadow tried Ragnos did not. Sadow would obviously be seen as greater weaker but greater.

Now why would Sadow not have a tomb or a palace? He was powerful and brilliant too, he deserved a place like that, and it was probably build before he died anyways. Why he build his tomb around the Star Map and Ragnos or Pall did not I will never know, but I can venture some guesses.

Maybe Ragnos did not care about it.

After all the thing was destroyed and it took many thousands of years before it even came close to recovering. And this was around Revan his time, during Ragnos and Malak its time the thing would have been even weaker and probably not have been able to show anything real. There was nothing around the map to show what it did either so why would Ragnos care about it?

Besides the thing showed the power of the Dark Side, Ragnos would not care about it as much as Sadow did because Ragnos was more powerful. Maybe the power of the Star Map vanished as he came near. Like you were trying to find one light candle in the middle of a freaking search light.

I don't know whatever the case, Ragnos did not build his tomb there and he would have had no reason. Sadow did but only because he felt the Dark Side there, not because of the Star Forge he had no way of knowing about it.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Hm. So I wonder if they will tie this in with the Sith Empire having found the secrets of the Ratakan and ... what? Left known space?

Well, how would they? The other peices of the Star Map were on different planets, two of them were likely under the rule of the Republic, another in a giant jungle of walking carpets, and the final one in a planet of sand, sand, and more sand!

Yeah, this one can only be resolved by logic. The story of Naga Sadow was created well before KOTOR ever came out, this is a problem created by the game-designers. Didn't see it coming during the whole game's production.

And, by all sources, Sadow died ON Yavin lV, and his spirit trained Freedon Nadd. How there IS even a tomb for him on Korriban, seeing as how he did not die there, or even within Sith Imperial Space, seems to be an editing fluke.

It wasn't his spirit that trained Nadd. He was frozen is suspended animation and Nadd let him out. Not to be an ass, but please double-check your info next time.

(mimics Glentract behind his back)

He still didn't have time enough to die on, be buried on, or have a tomb built for him on, Korriban, did he?

Well your very impressive.

(giggles like a little school girl) Oh you! (little hand flap)