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Although Gandalf is an Istari, he rarely seemed above men. In The Two Towers when he returns as Gandalf the white he's approached by Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas. Under the impression that Gandalf is Saruman the white they attack him and Gandalf effortlessly deflects arrows and the axe then makes Aragorns sword scorching hot. So, why didn't he use his powers when they needed it most(like when orcs attacked the white city) instead of sword fighting or hitting orcs with his staff? My only guess is that it might have lessened the grit and toil of the battle scenes that Jackson was going for. Share your thoughts.

Originally posted by Some_Black_Guy
Although Gandalf is an Istari, he rarely seemed above men. In The Two Towers when he returns as Gandalf the white he's approached by Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas. Under the impression that Gandalf is Saruman the white they attack him and Gandalf effortlessly deflects arrows and the axe then makes Aragorns sword scorching hot. So, why didn't he use his powers when they needed it most(like when orcs attacked the white city) instead of sword fighting or hitting orcs with his staff? My only guess is that it might have lessened the grit and toil of the battle scenes that Jackson was going for. Share your thoughts.

Indeed...

Because as an Istari he isn't allowed to effect the dealings of men , he doesn't in the book so he wouldn't in the film..

Maybe he's stupid...

Originally posted by Fianna
Because as an Istari he isn't allowed to effect the dealings of men , he doesn't in the book so he wouldn't in the film..

Well I consider fighting alongside them 'effecting the dealings of men', he didn't just sit back and give advice like Galadriel, he helped to turn the tables, and I've read the books also....If you read deeper into the origin of the Wizards it says that they were put on middle earth to help the race of men...

Originally posted by Some_Black_Guy
Well I consider fighting alongside them 'effecting the dealings of men', he didn't just sit back and give advice like Galadriel, he helped to turn the tables, and I've read the books also....If you read deeper into the origin of the Wizards it says that they were put on middle earth to help the race of men... No, but I don't think they are allowed to use there powers to directly affect it. e.g if he used his power to destroy all the orcs around minas Tirith.

Originally posted by Fianna
No, but I don't think they are allowed to use there powers to directly affect it. e.g if he used his power to destroy all the orcs around minas Tirith.

Well I've never read that, I believe my guess is right. If Gandalf used his powers to vanquish all of the orcs with a wave of his hand it would have taken the excitement out of the battle. But in the Two Towers it was proven that he did posess such powers, which causes one to wonder why he didn't use them more often.

Well yeah in the movie it would of, but as he didn't do it in the book in first place then it wouldn't have been in the movie

And if you ask people to disuss things it's better not to completey rule everything anyone else says out. If you believe your guess it right then there wasn;t much point in making the thread in the first place..

Originally posted by Fianna
Well yeah in the movie it would of, but as he didn't do it in the book in first place then it wouldn't have been in the movie

And if you ask people to disuss things it's better not to completey rule everything anyone else says out. If you believe your guess it right then there wasn;t much point in making the thread in the first place..

You're right, I just wanted to see wanted to see what somebody else would say. I didn't mean to seem expostulatory.

Gandalf and his posse of wizards were sent to help men. So to give assistance but not full on just go out and do everything for them.

He was like a teacher, they help you along, but they dont take the test for you.

Overt power is very rare in LOTR. Even superpowered as Gandalf the White, the amount of overt 'spells' he could fire off were very few (and as Gandalf the Grey, he couldn;t even defeat the spiders in The Hobbit, considering actually sacrificing himself to do so). Ok, so he showed off a bit to Aragorn and co- but you should look at that for its stylistic rather than logical value.

In any case, he did not remotely have enough power to simply vanquish all the Orcs like that. Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf and couldn't do anything approaching THAT at the height of his powers. As it was, in that fight Gandalf was most likely saving his energies. He used the sunlight trick once or wice though.

Remember- 'magic' in LOTR is done with a LOT of moderation.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Overt power is very rare in LOTR. Even superpowered as Gandalf the White, the amount of overt 'spells' he could fire off were very few (and as Gandalf the Grey, he couldn;t even defeat the spiders in The Hobbit, considering actually sacrificing himself to do so). Ok, so he showed off a bit to Aragorn and co- but you should look at that for its stylistic rather than logical value.

In any case, he did not remotely have enough power to simply vanquish all the Orcs like that. Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf and couldn't do anything approaching THAT at the height of his powers. As it was, in that fight Gandalf was most likely saving his energies. He used the sunlight trick once or wice though.

Remember- 'magic' in LOTR is done with a LOT of moderation.

Moderation indeed..

I have to say if Gandalf went all out i think he would give Sauron a run for his money.

I VERY much disagree! Sauron had become far more powerful than any figure like Gandalf. He really had broken the scale. it is exceptionally clear that with the Ring in his possession, all would be lost- Gandalf could not stand against him.

There isn't any 'all-out'; Gandalf WAS giving his all.

He is alot stronger as Gandalf the White then he was in his previous manifestation of Gandalf the Grey.

In the book he never had cause to deflect any weapons and there is a rule that he can't interfere very much. The inconsistency was a movie goof.

Originally posted by shaber


In the book he never had cause to deflect any weapons and there is a rule that he can't interfere very much. The inconsistency was a movie goof.

Obviously

The info below clears it all up, I was partly right, the constant use of magic would make it pointless and less interesting.

Magic in Middle-earth

Yes, there is a working force in Middle-earth that is supernatural; meaning effects which cannot be achieved by normal, everyday methods. This process can be interpreted as "magic". There are examples of spontaneous creation of fire, songs of power, words of command, miraculous healing, runes of power, and weapons with special abilities. Yet, for all this, Tolkien used magic sparingly and for good reason; if used too much it is no longer special or supernatural.

What is the nature of this Magic?

The nature of magic in Middle-earth is wrapped around Tolkien's philosophy of power and domination. In one of the The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (#155) he makes a distinction between "good" and "bad" magic and further states that both sides used both types. It is not the magic itself that is good or bad, but the intentions and motives for its use.
Good magic is meant to be "artistic" for the purpose of creating or preserving beauty, whereas bad magic was used for "deceit" or to dominate the wills of others. But magic in general, was a means to quicken the process between the conception of thought and actual realization of effect.

Which races used magic?

Tolkien believed that the ability to use magic was derived from the inherent power contained within the individual and that Men did not have this type of power. Aragorn, who could heal the sick, is of course, an exception. But Tolkien goes on to state that he is, through descent, related to Luthien, born of Thingol an elf, and Melian a Maiar.

Didn't the Istari, or Wizards use Magic?

The Istari, of course, could also use magic, but they are not a race. The Istari were messengers from Valinor, who were sent to help the races of Middle-earth resist the domination of Sauron. They were lesser Maiar, but changed into mortal flesh and subject to the trials and effects of Middle-earth. Being changed into Istari, they used their inherent power which was called "magic" by Men, but in a subtle manner; they were forbidden to use their power openly in direct confrontation or domination. However, they did use this magic for certain beneficent purposes. For example, Gandalf uses his magic to create fire, and invokes a command of holding on the door to Balin's tomb during the attack of the Balrog.

What about the Magic of the Valar and Maiar?

The Valar and Maiar should be treated separately and not associated with magic in the mortal sense of the word. They certainly could perform supernatural feats, but this power should be considered as "divine power" and not magic.

Can't the other Races use Magic?

Dwarves, men, hobbits, orcs, and the other races of Middle-earth are seemingly devoid of "inherent power", and can not perform magical effects. The exception to this is for Men of Elven descent, such as the line of Elros, brother of Elrond, who was considered half-elven.
The only other way for a mortal to use magic is with a Ring of Power. Before the Nine faded and became Ringwraiths, it is stated that by using the Nine Rings these men "became mighty in their day,kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old (The Silmarillion)." The dwarven rings also lent magical power to their users and it is rumoured that the "Seven Hoards of the Dwarf-kings" had a ring as its source. See the FAQ on the Rings of Power (to be written).
However, this is not to say that these races could not create items with special properties that could be considered magical. The Númenóreans created swords with spells on them, and the dwarves made the Helm of Hador and used runes of power. But this process is different from magic and is defined as lore.

What is the difference between magic and lore?

Tolkien specifically stated that magic can only be performed by individuals possessing an inherent power (Letter #155). Magic allowed for the instantaneous creation of effect from thought.
Lore was knowledge gained by study to be used in the creation of items such as elven swords, the palantír, the doors of Moria, rings of power, etc.

Which races used magic?

Magic was invoked by speaking. Words were extremely important to Tolkien, who was a philologist. He considered words as enchantments or spells; say the word "green" and it invokes the image of the colour in the listener's mind. The process of invoking magic was to conceive the thought and speak it to realize its effect. By saying the word it makes the thought real. For example, Gandalf uses words to open the entrance to Moria, and he also uses a word of Command to hold the door against the Balrog.

Other than that fiualing to mention that Elves did not recognise the term 'Magic'...

... people make far too much of this 'forbidden to use power' thing. That rule only went as far as not using open power to rule people. Saruman happily BROKE that rule and you don't see any Earth-shattering power fom him, do you? No, just subtle effects used well- the same as Gandalf, in either incarnation.

In the case of the istari magic power is really taken to mean having greater knowledge than the others on Middle Earth. Saruman wasted his real potential by mimetically limping after Sauron.

Originally posted by Some_Black_Guy
Although Gandalf is an Istari, he rarely seemed above men. In The Two Towers when he returns as Gandalf the white he's approached by Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas. Under the impression that Gandalf is Saruman the white they attack him and Gandalf effortlessly deflects arrows and the axe then makes Aragorns sword scorching hot. So, why didn't he use his powers when they needed it most(like when orcs attacked the white city) instead of sword fighting or hitting orcs with his staff? My only guess is that it might have lessened the grit and toil of the battle scenes that Jackson was going for. Share your thoughts.

Tolkien wanted it to be really obvious that gandalf couldn't solve every problem with magic,he achieved this by keeping Gandalfs use of "physical" magic very limited,however he does use magic when needed.

isnt the easy answer....that if Gandalf did use his powers...lets face it...the book and the film wouldnt be good...

forgot where i read this, (surprised it hasnt yet been mentioned), but i believe i have read that the wizards, like gandalf, werent allowed to use there magic soley on Sauron to defeat him because they felt that using the same methods that Sauron used to destroy him would lead to corruption, and using the Enemy's technique would corrupt them as well, ie thats why gandalf cant use the ring, or use his own magic to openly destroy Sauron, so he must only try to help the Men of Middle Earth to defeat Sauron, not use magic.

I can see why you would say that about the first part of the battle during the night raid. But really, would Gandalf really make a difference in the outcome of Minas Tirith? My answer is no. Before Rohan arrived he was at the mercy of the Witch-King after he destroyed his staff which a wizard uses to use magic.
The first part what did he really do in the fight? He was a great General that led his forces to victory but could he really have made thousands of Orcs drop their weapons? Gandalf most likely assist the Soldiers of Gondor the best he could.

Originally posted by ESB-1138
I can see why you would say that about the first part of the battle during the night raid. But really, would Gandalf really make a difference in the outcome of Minas Tirith? My answer is no. Before Rohan arrived he was at the mercy of the Witch-King after he destroyed his staff which a wizard uses to use magic.
The first part what did he really do in the fight? He was a great General that led his forces to victory but could he really have made thousands of Orcs drop their weapons? Gandalf most likely assist the Soldiers of Gondor the best he could.

i agree. in the book, however, gandalf's staff does NOT break at all. PJ just threw that in i guess to make the situation look somewhat hopeless, until of course the Rohirrim arrive. the scene is not that much different from the book with the exception of gandalf's staff breaking. to me, the staff breaking, along with sarumans "fire ball", were both just ways to make the scene more exciteing and have that shock effect, like, WTH?

srry to get off topic, but it just came to my mind. i doubt that gandalf could or would defeat Sauron by himself useing even ALOT of magic. but he was a good general and lead them very well. love it when he knocks denethor with his staff, lol.

One of the best parts of the movies/books. I doubt Gandalf could defeat the Witch-King

Originally posted by ESB-1138
One of the best parts of the movies/books. I doubt Gandalf could defeat the Witch-King

yeah me too, i just dont think he would be a match for the wichking. gandalf doesnt have his staff anymore, so, hes screwed.

The greatest moments in the movies.
-The Two Towers-
Gimli: What's going on?
Legolas: Shall I desrcibe it to you...or would you rather have me get you a box.

Aragon: It's a long way down.
Gimli: Toss me. I cannot jump a distance you have to toss me...oh...don't tell the elf.
Aragon: Not a word.

-Return of the King-
Gimli: That still only counts as one!!

Originally posted by Batman Returns
forgot where i read this, (surprised it hasnt yet been mentioned), but i believe i have read that the wizards, like gandalf, werent allowed to use there magic soley on Sauron to defeat him because they felt that using the same methods that Sauron used to destroy him would lead to corruption, and using the Enemy's technique would corrupt them as well, ie thats why gandalf cant use the ring, or use his own magic to openly destroy Sauron, so he must only try to help the Men of Middle Earth to defeat Sauron, not use magic.

No, that's not true, only as pertains to Ring Use. After all, Glorfindel was not afraid to use what we would call magic (but certainly not Elves!) to total Nazguls. Gandalf's power is no more 'evil' than that.

In fact, Tolkien is very clear that the power of the Elves and the Istari is conceptually different from the power used by the forces of evil.

So no, it would not corrupt them. Like I say, people make far too much of this 'forbvidden' nonsense; Gandalf was not holding back!

i KNOW i read this somewhere that he IS somewhat "forbidden" to use magic in extreme means. i will try to find it.

It's an issue fans often confuse, but the only thing explicitly stated is that they were not allowed to make overt shows of power to rule Elves or Men.

No really i agree with Batman (That sounds weird) It does say somewhere they are not allowed to go all out, i will find the quote.

Gandalf is on ME to give men a mere push gandalf defeated a balrog ect. if gandalf had any dount in his mine that Men were in danger, he would of done somthing about it i guess. and istari can just use powers , they have to have permision

No, he would have done no more about it. Why you are so keen to dismiss any element of drama from the story, I do not know.

And I see no proof of this.

Gandalf is no god. If Rohan hadn't come to Minas Tirith when they did Gandalf and everyone else in Gondor would have been killed. The wizards are on Middle-Earth solely to help oppose Sauron.

Very interesting topic.

I don't get where all the "Gandalf would so lose if he went against Sauron", let me bring you back to where a MAN cut the damn ring off from Sauron's hand to DEFEAT him. weak Isildur defeated the ultimate evil of ME. So why not a Wizard???

Ushgarak has many excellent points and so far I sway to his argument. Gandalf isnt the "exterminator" at Minas Tirith, ok he may be lending a very helpful leadership hand at Minas Tirith - I simply think this was a means of defending himsel - sel defence some may claim?

So lets review "that" scene from the Two Towers. Gandalf appears and bassically blocks 2 objects coming towards him - big wow! I am sure he could not of done that to all the barrage of attack onto Minas Tirith. Now the whol Aragorn's sword becoming heavy came LAST in his list of spells/magic tricks - so I am guessing it took a little extra to conjour up that spell, I can say this for sure that gandalf could not be bothered conjouring up half a Million spells so orcs can drop their worthless weapons so they could go pick them up a second later.

Discos - a rant worth ranting about.

So what you are saying is just because a man killed Sauron makes him weak? If that is so, then Boromir getting killed by arrows makes him weak. And Saruman getting his throat cut by Grima makes Saruman weak.

Originally posted by The Inkeeper
I have to say if Gandalf went all out i think he would give Sauron a run for his money.
I totally agree, but that is if the Valor allowed him to use his power to his full extent.

You are basing all this on your opinion on what Gandalf might have instead of what you know Gandalf has. You can say Gandalf can snap his fingers and all the orcs at Minas Tirith would have turned to dust but that never happened so no one knows. You cannot base your arguments on what you think Gandalf could do you can only base your arguments on what you know Gandalf can do.

Originally posted by Celestial
You are basing all this on your opinion on what Gandalf might have instead of what you know Gandalf has. You can say Gandalf can snap his fingers and all the orcs at Minas Tirith would have turned to dust but that never happened so no one knows. You cannot base your arguments on what you think Gandalf could do you can only base your arguments on what you know Gandalf can do.
I said if the Valor would allow him to use all his power he could have killed sauron, but if the Valor didnt allow him Gandalf would be killed.

Gandalf is the most powerful being in middle earth.

Quote: So am I very Dangerous: more dangerous then any thing you'll ever meet......

So everything Gandalf says is a lie because you know so much about him

The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King
Chapter IV: The Siege of Gondor Pg. 800-801 (One volume edition)
'Is Faramir come?' he asked.
'No,' said Gandalf. 'But he still lived when I left him. Yet he is resolved to stay with the reargurad, lest the retreat over the Pelennor become a rout. He may, perhaps, hold his men together long enough, but I doubt it. He is pitted against a foe too great. For one has come that I feared.'
'Not - the Dark Lord?' cried Pippin, forgetting his place in his terror.
Denethor laughed bitterly. 'Nay, not yet, Master Peregrin! He will not come save only to triumph over me when all is won. He uses others as his weapons. So do all great lords, if they are wise, Master Halfling. Or why should I sit here in my tower and think, and watch, and wair, spending even my sons? For I can still wield a brand.'
He stood up and cast opened his long black cloak, and behold! he was clad in mail beneath, and grit with a long sword, great-hilted in a sheath of black and silver. 'Thus have I walked, and thus now for many years have I slept,' he said, 'lest we age the body should grow soft and timid.'
'Yet now under the Lord of Barad-dur the most fell of all his captains is already master of your outer walls' said Gandalf. 'King of Angmar long ago, Sorcerer, Ringwraith, Lord of the Nazgul, a spear of terror in the hand of Sauron, shadow of despair.'
'Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you,' Said Denethor. 'For myself, I have long known who is chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or cab it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?'
Pippin trembled, fearing that Gandalf would be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. 'It might be so,' Gandalf answered softly.

in response to your question - no, sauron is not weak because he was defeated by a man. I was implying that I dont see why all these people are saying there is no competition for Sauron if you put him against gandalf - its silly.

Lets us remember Gandalf is very old as well, even the scenes at the black gate you can see he is in a bit of agony from swaying around too much,

Discos - not weak, just plain stupid to put his hand out towards a man who is in reaching distance of a very sharp blade.

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
I said if the Valor would allow him to use all his power he could have killed sauron, but if the Valor didnt allow him Gandalf would be killed.

Gandalf is the most powerful being in middle earth.

Quote: So am I very Dangerous: more dangerous then any thing you'll ever meet......

My WORD, why do you KEEP using that quote when you must know full well that he says immediately afterwards

"...unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."

I have heard of selective vision but that is taking the piss.

Gandalf is by absolutely no means at all a match for Sauron, regardless of whatever vain mutterings of what he is 'allowed' to use that you speak of.

Hard to say - Ian McKellen was reported to have asked Peter Jackson during the siege of Minas Tirith, "Why am I hitting these creatures over the head with my staff and sword? Why not use a spell?" Peter Jackson:"Just think like the batteries in your staff have run down."

Originally posted by Discos
in response to your question - no, sauron is not weak because he was defeated by a man. I was implying that I dont see why all these people are saying there is no competition for Sauron if you put him against gandalf - its silly.

Lets us remember Gandalf is very old as well, even the scenes at the black gate you can see he is in a bit of agony from swaying around too much,

Discos - not weak, just plain stupid to put his hand out towards a man who is in reaching distance of a very sharp blade.

You forgot that Sauron was defeated by a dog when he had is full powers.

Morgoth had an army of Balrogs as his servents
Morgoth >>>>Balrogs (Because if the Balrogs were stronger they would be the master of Morgoth)

Morgoth's greatest servent was Sauron
Morgoth>Sauron>>>Balrogs

After Morgoth's defeat, Sauron became stronger then Morgoth
Sauron>Morgoth>>>>Balrogs

Gandalf the Grey was killed by a Balrog but he killed it so they were even
Sauron>Morgoth>>>>Balrog=Gandalf the Grey

Gandalf the White is stronger then Gandalf the Grey but not no three times as strong
Sauron>Morgoth>>>Gandalf the White>Balrog=Gandalf the Grey

Need I say more?

Actually, you've messed up a couple of parts in that explaination, noting that Sauron neve was more powerful then morgoth, even after he was cast into th eVoid

During the ensuing War of Wrath, Beleriand and much of the north of Middle-earth was destroyed, but at the end Morgoth was utterly defeated, and his punishment was final. Because he had weakened himself so he could no longer resist the Valar. Melkor/Morgoth was executed, and his fëa was shut outside the gates of the world forever. Shut off from Arda where most of his essence remained he was unable to ever return

Morgoth weakened himself during the War of Wrath and when Sauron created the One Ring, his power was greater then Morgoth's.

no chance was Sauron more powerful than Morgoth, notice how the Vala decided not to personally defeat sauron themselves but had to do it once and a bit with Melkor then with Morgoth.

Hund never defeated Sauron, just scared him off....Hund was a big ass dog, and even the mightiest of foes would be scared of a biatch dog like Hund

gandalf is of the 1/2 elf and half man and at some point is 1/8 god. he is not allowed to interfere with the dealings of men because he has been given the grace to live on from Manwe (the most powerful and wisest of the gods besides melkor) he is not allowed to effect the scale in a grand scale e.g killing the witch king of agmar and when he does only in dire needs

Agree about the latter part of your post but where the heck did you get the idea that Gandalf is 1/2 elf, half man and 1/8 god?

I put Sauron with his ring somewhere near Melkors range, unfortunately Sauron stupidly allowed himself to have his fingers removed so Melkor was stronger all round imo.

Sauron was cleverer though, more cunning, he would spend a shit-load of time planning things (such as living in weird forrests planning getting his ring back etc etc) whereas Melkor would just randomly let out a few thousand gallons of lava one day and have a five year battle.


Melkor was a psycho Sauron was pyschotic but in a more sane way.

Originally posted by bogen
gandalf is of the 1/2 elf and half man and at some point is 1/8 god. he is not allowed to interfere with the dealings of men because he has been given the grace to live on from Manwe (the most powerful and wisest of the gods besides melkor) he is not allowed to effect the scale in a grand scale e.g killing the witch king of agmar and when he does only in dire needs
Where did you hear that Gandalf was 1/2 elf, 1/2 man and 1/8 god? He is not allowed to interfere? That's the sole purpose of the five wizards going to Middle-Earth in the first place. To help defeat Sauron.

haha 1 half elve and 1 half man - 1/8 god? he was a bleedin Miar. End of story.

That has to be one of the funniest posts I have read in a while. This one is going on my favourites.

Chris has some valid points, Sauron was smart and dangerous - very good combination for a bad guy. And yes Melkor was just a retard, I think maybe Sauron learned from melkor's mistakes seeing as melkor was first to do "evil" that the Vala had heard of.

Ummmm....Sauron was at his strongest when he was serving Morgoth. He had made the ring, not to get more powerful, but to sustain his life and power in the Sil, it said that Sauron started to 'diminish' awhile after Morgoths defeat, and no, i will not go hunting for it in the book for a direct quote, i just stated what i remember, if you want to see it look for yourself. I'm too lazy.

Originally posted by The Inkeeper
I have to say if Gandalf went all out i think he would give Sauron a run for his money.


false, the Isatari which included Saruman couldnt even consider taking on the dark lord... Sauron was a physical being and a dark mastery gleaned from Morgoth...


the entire posse of wizards together only then might have a teeny chance in combat... yes this is including Rhataghast as well as the blue green and red wizards.

Originally posted by Celestial
During the ensuing War of Wrath, Beleriand and much of the north of Middle-earth was destroyed, but at the end Morgoth was utterly defeated, and his punishment was final. Because he had weakened himself so he could no longer resist the Valar. Melkor/Morgoth was executed, and his fëa was shut outside the gates of the world forever. Shut off from Arda where most of his essence remained he was unable to ever return

Morgoth weakened himself during the War of Wrath and when Sauron created the One Ring, his power was greater then Morgoth's.


again false as others have pointed out, the one rings sustained power.


Sauron was never more than 1% of Morgoth is his prime.

GREEN wizard? Have you been on the Hobbit leaf?

Originally posted by Celestial
Where did you hear that Gandalf was 1/2 elf, 1/2 man and 1/8 god? He is not allowed to interfere? That's the sole purpose of the five wizards going to Middle-Earth in the first place. To help defeat Sauron.

I heard it of some LOTR fan a while ago, he said that in order to pull of his magical stunts he needed to have grace( yeah sure well and good says you) But when he became gandalf the white he surpassed his previous form also it was said that he became and equal with souron who was a what; a miar so any questions??!?

Gandalf the White was equal to the Witch-King who is Sauron's greatest servant. There is a reason the Witch-King is Sauron's servant. Gandalf cannot defeat Sauron as Gandalf the Grey or Gandalf the White.

Originally posted by bogen
I heard it of some LOTR fan a while ago, he said that in order to pull of his magical stunts he needed to have grace( yeah sure well and good says you) But when he became gandalf the white he surpassed his previous form also it was said that he became and equal with souron who was a what; a miar so any questions??!?

Well, one quesiton might be- why did Gandalf himsdelf say that Sauron was mightier than he?

1 question might also be: you have no clue what Gandalf the White was holding back. Show me where in any book that it says Gandalf the White could defeat Sauron.

Think about it! he has been givven the ability to blast a gaping hole in the world, but will he do it? no because he cares to much. Souron on the other hand was in the biggining givven that same power but does it not say in the silmarilion that darkness (evil) has a degenerating effect on all even those who call opon evil to do there will. Therefore gandalf hammer souron but chose no to because Arda would be nothing so he waits and wathes, keeps a very close eye on souron.

Done

Repeat- Gandalf himself says that Sauron is mightier than he.

'Done'.

i don't think Gandalf ever truley intended to use magic in the event covered in LOTR. i think he fealt, and i'm sure i've read tolkien saying this, that he did not want men to grow reliant upon other powers to save them from all predicements.

if you look at Gandalf's early years, he would disguise himself as an elf walking past another making a sugestion, or as a voice on the wind to inspire elves with ideas to create.

i think the only real reason you saw gandalf use any magic at all was because he felt soley responsible for the involvement of the hobbits, the one race that had managed to avoid all the happenings in the world, and wanted to protect them.

And Gandalf saying Sauron was stronger means nothing.

no, it means Sauron was more powerful than Gandalf...

i'm not debating that... i'm talking about why Gandalf didn't fireball the Uruk Hai at Helmsdeep, or ray of enfeeblement the troll, or chain lightening the mordor orcs, or whatever AD&D crap everyone seemed to be expecting when they saw these films and asked me why gandy didn't use LVL 30 l337 PWR!!!!!11!!!1

He made that huge light and blinded them at Helms Deep

yeah, he did alot of defensive/passive stuff...

but you just can't please some people...

i know a few nerds who's idea of what constitutes as a wizard is warped by all that AD&D and other RPGs. I really feel sorry for people who can't appreciate that...

I know what you mean

Originally posted by bogen
Think about it! he has been givven the ability to blast a gaping hole in the world, but will he do it? no because he cares to much. Souron on the other hand was in the biggining givven that same power but does it not say in the silmarilion that darkness (evil) has a degenerating effect on all even those who call opon evil to do there will. Therefore gandalf hammer souron but chose no to because Arda would be nothing so he waits and wathes, keeps a very close eye on souron.

Done

your argument is about is bad as your spelling.


makes. no. sense.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
GREEN wizard? Have you been on the Hobbit leaf?

check out the encylopedia of Arda... there are some tiny references to the green and red wizards...


essentially what it states is that Saruman, Rhatagast and Gandalf stayed in the west while the others wandered into the unknown lands of the east never to been seen again.


you have to remember the birthplace of the elves is the in east as well as the "Unwilling" caste of elves.

you mean the two blue wizards... Alatar and Pallando.

they went into the east with saruman who came back alone.
Tolkien hints that they became cult leaders and started followings.

there are no red or green wizards.

Indeedy so; please check your facts, Covert (and even those two names Bar gave are highly tenuous).

And no Elves ever dwelt as far East as the Blue Wizards went.

i'm pretty sure those names appear in a footnote or somthing in Unfinished Tales... but i can't be sure until i get home. (and by then i'll be drunk)

They do, but remember what Unfinished Tales is- a collection of half-formed discarded notes most of which would never have been used.

In any official note he made about them, he referred to them only as the Blue Wizards.

My god man, (started of this thread) havent u ever read the books?

The Valar instructed Gandalf not to use more overt magic than he had to. Part of the rationale for that had to be that use of magic can create more problems than it solves (kind of like technology). As a Maia, Gandalf probably had a role in the creation of Ea (the world). He was powerful, but I believe he left most of his power and knowledge behind when he was incarnated as an Istari, as a sort of safety measure. It's like you don't want to carry more explosives around in your truck than you need.

Gandalf was able to accomplish his mission using his brains, his charisma, hard long work, and a bit of magic. He did not need to use more magic than he did, nor would the use of more magic have helped. For example, he had to let Frodo/Sam/Gollum fly under Sauron's magic radar to get to Mt. Doom. If Gandalf attempted to intervene more than he did with that, he might have blown their cover.

Gandalf would have been more powerful than Sauron if he claimed the One Ring, but he was too good and wise to do that. Sauron put most of his power into the Ring. That's why he was vanquished when it was destroyed.

Agreed EruMelkor I've read a quote not by a character but its dealing with if Gandalf took the one ring and I will look through all my books and references if need be. Basically what it says is that if Gandalf the White took the one ring he would indeed cast down Sauron. However, the ring would corrupt Gandalf and he would be a more terrible dark lord than Sauron himself. He would remain righteous but self righteous and force the people under his rule to do his bidding for his perceived "Greater Good".

Gandalf or Olorin as his true Maiar name is, was also very wise the wisest of all 5 to pass into Middle-Earth Celebrimbor of the harbour sensed this in him on arrival and thus entrusted Narya the elven ring of fire to his keeping. Because of this wisdom Gandalf would not use his power unless in the dire most need.

Gandalf himself said "don't tempt me Bilbo! I dare not take the Ring even to keep it safe. I would try to use the Ring to do good but through me it shall do terrible tasks" or something like that. Meaning Gandalf's will isn't strong enough to control the Ring. He would have ended up like Saruman the Many Colours.

And do you mind telling me where you got your information from thefallen544?

ya really how good would ROTK be if gandalf just went up in front of the army of 100000 and just BOOM they all are dead

Gah I was wrong not Celebrimbor, Cirdan of the Harbour. Besides, Gandalf couldn't have defeated Sauron as the White without the use of the ring and it was not his purpose to. Someone pointed out earlier that Isildur cut the ring from Saurons hand and defeated him, this is somewhat of a tainted view its often seen that it was the combined effort of Gil-Galad and Elendil that threw down Sauron but also cost them their lives. In his fall Elendil fell upon Narsil and broke it, after Saurons defeat Isildur then took up the shards of his fathers sword and cut the ring from Saurons hand.