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Who wins?

Both of the brothers!

Of course Great Evil Beast win.

By the way, this is the qualifying round to see if he's worthy to go up against GalacticStorm's Phoenix, lol.

Guess nobody knows about Great Evil Beast?

(NOT to be confused with Alpa Beast, god damn it!)

Originally posted by demigawd
Guess nobody knows about Great Evil Beast?

(NOT to be confused with Alpa Beast, god damn it!)


I think the not enough is really known about the GEB limits of power to judge against Michael and Lucy, he is obviously way beyond the Phoenix force

JP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ummm know one knows much about the Great Beast, but he kind of gave God a hard time, and isn't God as far away in power from Lucifer as Lucifer is from say me or you. Its all irrelevant as the only one who can think about taking the phoenix is J.P.

I might be wrong about this. But wasent it stated that the two together (Michael and Lucifer) have a power that equals that of the Presence?

Originally posted by olympian
I might be wrong about this. But wasent it stated that the two together (Michael and Lucifer) have a power that equals that of the Presence?

probably I try to keep comics and religeon seperate issues. Reading about sum one who is supposed to be responsible for all sin and evil in the world is not really my thing.

If someone can confirm if its either right or wrong, go ahead. Im not sure myself.

Does GEB have any particular feats? I can't find much on him.

Originally posted by yahman
probably I try to keep comics and religeon seperate issues. Reading about sum one who is supposed to be responsible for all sin and evil in the world is not really my thing.

According to the cosmology of Lucifer, "Satan," is just a post. Lucifer isn't responsible for the evil in the world--he just takes advantage of it to suit his own ends.

from everything i have read on these forums and other Christian/Jewish sites about these 2 beings, The Great Evil Beast is God's (Yahweh) evil side/The End of All Things. The Presence is the opposite of The Great Beast, it is The Light/Hope/Life in the Omniverse. Before there was light there was darkness/nothing, that is supported in the bible and in DC. The Presence also has a female aspect called the Shechina, in the Bible the being that has this aspect is The Holy Spirit/"The Presence". The Holy Spirit/The Presence proceeds from God/Yahweh. When TGEB was awakened it wanted to know why it was here, where did it go??? it went to Heaven to ask God why it was here, during this time The Presence confronted TGEB and they both tried to destroy each other but realised if 1 of them did actually destroy the other then everything would not work according to Yahweh's plan so they stopped.. when someone is talking to The Presence they are indirectly talking to Yahweh. The Presence/The Holy Spirit is omnipresent. In DC Comics Yahweh has left his throne to Lucifer and Michael, wherever Yahweh goes The Presence also goes. also Gods wife is the Shechina and without Yahweh/The Presence she has no husband.

The Great Evil Beast is not The First of the Fallen, The First is Satan The Presence's first creation, he told The Presence it was wrong to make a race of beings free of will, after The Silver City was built The First came across The Presence again in Heaven and then God threw him out of The Silver City for even questioning him earlier. oh yah TGEB wins this fight.

Only God can defeat TGRB.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Only God can defeat TGRB.

ok i m an atheists so how does that work 4 me?

no, god is just one face of the presence, hes been killed by saint of killers and almost by swamp thing, lucifer and micheal combined can beat god, but not THE PRESENCE, and TGEB is equal to the presence, he will surely kill micheal and lucifer

So wait...

The Presence > God?!?!

So doesn't that also mean the Presence > TOAA in Marvel? Or that TOAA > God in DC?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
no, god is just one face of the presence, hes been killed by saint of killers and almost by swamp thing, lucifer and micheal combined can beat god, but not THE PRESENCE, and TGEB is equal to the presence, he will surely kill micheal and lucifer

Well when I meant God I ment The Presence, it was The Presence who threw THRB down, so The Presence is the highest and most powerful.
TOAA=The Presence.

Originally posted by demigawd
So wait...

The Presence > God?!?!

So doesn't that also mean the Presence > TOAA in Marvel? Or that TOAA > God in DC?


TOAA>GOD in dc
TOAA=THE PRESENCE+THE GREAT BEAST

GOD IS ONE FACE OF THE PRESENCE

mmmm......GEB is worthy!

Originally posted by demigawd
Guess nobody knows about Great Evil Beast?

(NOT to be confused with Alpha Beast, god damn it!) GEB is Alpha Beast's b*tch. Literally. Every Tuesday and Thursday, and most Saturdays.

well Preacher is not in DC continuity so that doesn't really count. The GOD everyone is probably talking about is The Word which is GOD in DC. Yahweh tho is still more powerful then The Presence and TGEB, The Presence is THE HOLY SPIRIT, it is Life/Hope/Light, everything was created by The Presence. without The Presence there is only Darkness/The Great Beast.

here is how it should be.
1. Yahweh
2. The Presence/The Great Beast/The Source"TOAA" Gods Will
3. The Word GOD,/Lucifer/Michael
4. The Spectre/The Living Tribunal

the main reason ppl/beings don't say Jehovah or Yahweh very much is because it is considered to holy to be spoken so everyone must use other names for him, that is why ppl call him The Presence, abstract of Yahweh.

So Marvel TOAA=Yahweh

Originally posted by Xplosive
So Marvel TOAA=Yahweh

It seems so.

Well done Kevdude you've cleared up a lot of things for everyone.

The Divine name of Keter/The Crown is Eheieh (I Am) which is rendered as Pure Being, Holy Spirit or Presence.

Just a lil extra info for you all.

So only Yahweh and TOAA are trully almighty and are/is the God we are refering as trully almighty.
Then behind them it's The Presence.

Originally posted by Xplosive
So only Yahweh and TOAA are trully almighty and are/is the God we are refering as trully almighty.
Then behind them it's The Presence.

The Presence is just an aspect of Yahweh as are the Source and the Word.

The Presence is a Kaballah related take on the whole God thing and is also referred to as the Crown.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Presence is just an aspect of Yahweh as are the Source and the Word.

The Presence is a Kaballah related take on the whole God thing and is also referred to as the Crown.

Yes, I thought so and I wanted to say, isn't Phoneix Force like that. Then we should compare Phoenix Force to The Presnece.

Marvel wise in creation phoenix is the origin of all that is. The natural beginning and end, the life force of creation. That is why in the crossover Phoenix was shown to be one and the same as the Source.

However Jean as Phoenix works for the Crown which by definition is the consciousness of God the point where the mind becomes one with the unmanifest, unknowable God. The Crown is also known as Keter and the Presence.

DC follows Kaballah principles as well believe it or not.

whats Kaballah ??

Originally posted by ImmortalOne
whats Kaballah ??

Its an offshoot of Judaism.

Oh, thus the Old Testament in the Bible ??

Anyway, lets start a new thread........... check the forums for my latest work !!!

Just my opinion:

Yahweh/TOAA
Presence(The Crown)/ TGEB/The Source(Phoenix Force)
Lucifer/Michael/White Crown Phoenix/
Living Tribunal/Spectre

NNice............

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Just my opinion:

Yahweh/TOAA
Presence(The Crown)/ TGEB/The Source(Phoenix Force)
Lucifer/Michael/White Crown Phoenix/
Living Tribunal/Spectre

Could be right.

I hope it is !!

Yahweh/TOAA
Presence(The Crown)/ TGEB/The Source
Lucifer/Michael/Saint of Killers
Living Tribunal/Spectre given the ok/Phoenix force/

Originally posted by supremthor
Yahweh/TOAA
Presence(The Crown)/ TGEB/The Source
Lucifer/Michael/Saint of Killers
Living Tribunal/Spectre given the ok/Phoenix force/

You're forgetting that in crossovers the Phoenix Force is depicted as The Source and you havent made a mention of the White Crown Phoenix at all. The avatars/ the phoenixes draw their power from the Crown which is another name for the Presence.

Yahweh/TOAA
Presence(The Crown)/TGEB/The Source(ThePhoenix Force)
Lucifer/Michael/White Crown Phoenix (Jean)
Living Tribunal/Spectre

TOAA is The Source, they both are aspects of Yahweh used by him for the creation of the omniverse, TOAA"The SOURCE" is Gods Will, the Creators manifested power for the creation for all of reality. the Phoenix Force went directly into The Source, that is telling everyone IT IS TOAA without saying its TOAA.

this is how I view it should be:
1. YHWH = The Father
2. The Presence/The Source"TOAA"/TGEB
3. The Word/Lucifer/Michael
4. The Spectre/The Living Tribunal/The Phoenix Force
5. Imperiex Prime he is the embodiment of Entropy and Entropy is Eternitys younger brother which will replace Eternity someday.

AT IT AGAIN GS? {i wonder why just about everyone stoppped talkin when u started, hmmm, must be my imagination}

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You're forgetting that in crossovers the Phoenix Force is depicted as The Source and you havent made a mention of the White Crown Phoenix at all. The avatars/ the phoenixes draw their power from the Crown which is another name for the Presence.

Yahweh/TOAA
Presence(The Crown)/TGEB/The Source(ThePhoenix Force)
Lucifer/Michael/White Crown Phoenix (Jean)
Living Tribunal/Spectre

you have a point my bad but i still wouldnt place the ThePhoenix Force above lucifer and michael may in the same league but not above them in terms of power. michel is the power of god and lucifer is the brains of god. michael is above way above lucifer in terms of power but lucifer prove u dont have to be powerful to win ur battels.wats i saying is ThePhoenix Force MAYBE more powerful then lucifer but shes not more powerful then michael.

Originally posted by kevdude
TOAA is The Source, they both are aspects of Yahweh used by him for the creation of the omniverse, TOAA"The SOURCE" is Gods Will, the Creators manifested power for the creation for all of reality. the Phoenix Force went directly into The Source, that is telling everyone IT IS TOAA without saying its TOAA.

this is how I view it should be:
1. YHWH = The Father
2. The Presence/The Source"TOAA"/TGEB
3. The Word/Lucifer/Michael
4. The Spectre/The Living Tribunal/The Phoenix Force
5. Imperiex Prime he is the embodiment of Entropy and Entropy is Eternitys younger brother which will replace Eternity someday.

TOAA is not the Source. It has never been revealed. Marvels equivalent of The Source as was made very clear in the crossover is the Phoenix Force.

The DC "god/angel thing" is based on kaballistic principles just like Marvel. The Presence equals Marvels Crown. They are the same thing just a different name is used. Kind of like puma and cougar. You need merely read up on the subject.

Phoenix Force is the creation power of the Crown. The White Crown Phoenix is the avatar of the Crown/Presence who does its bidding, who makes creation and maintains the creation cycle.

Yahweh and TOAA are the same thing for each comic book company

The Presence by its definition and by the principles behind it has a counterpart in Marvel which is the Crown (The source of the Phoenix power)

The White Crown Phoenix(Jean) is an avatar of the Crown a representation of gods will and power within creation. It is this that makes creation and ends it. All according to the will of the Crown.

Yahweh/TOAA
Presence(The Crown)/TGEB/The Source(ThePhoenix Force)
Lucifer/Michael/White Crown Phoenix (Jean)
Living Tribunal/Spectre

Originally posted by kevdude
TOAA is The Source, they both are aspects of Yahweh used by him for the creation of the omniverse, TOAA"The SOURCE" is Gods Will, the Creators manifested power for the creation for all of reality. the Phoenix Force went directly into The Source, that is telling everyone IT IS TOAA without saying its TOAA.

this is how I view it should be:
1. YHWH = The Father
2. The Presence/The Source"TOAA"/TGEB
3. The Word/Lucifer/Michael
4. The Spectre/The Living Tribunal/The Phoenix Force
5. Imperiex Prime he is the embodiment of Entropy and Entropy is Eternitys younger brother which will replace Eternity someday.

No Marvel TOAA=Yahweh. As The Presence is aspect of Yahew, also Phoenix Force is ascept of TOAA.
TOAA=Yahweh
The Presence=Phoenix Force, quite logical

Phoenix Force alone has as The Presence full power to create multiverse, while Lucifer need help of Michael or Michael need help of Lucifer to create Mulitverese.

TOAA=Yahweh
The Presence=Phoenix Force

Originally posted by supremthor
you have a point my bad but i still wouldnt place the ThePhoenix Force above lucifer and michael may in the same league but not above them in terms of power. michel is the power of god and lucifer is the brains of god. michael is above way above lucifer in terms of power but lucifer prove u dont have to be powerful to win ur battels.wats i saying is ThePhoenix Force MAYBE more powerful then lucifer but shes not more powerful then michael.

Your mistake is that you keep seeing the Phoenix Force as an entity. It isnt. It is the creation power of the Crown. So the force is pretty much second to none but TOAA in Marvel as has been stated in the past.

Jean is avatar of this power. She carries out the will of the Crown. It is she through her connection with the power that makes creation and keeps the cycle going. She is on an equal footing with the likes of Michael and Lucifer. However they like her work for a power greater than themselves which is why there is a distinction between Jean as the White Crown Phoenix and the creation power of the Crown which is the phoenix force.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
AT IT AGAIN GS? {i wonder why just about everyone stoppped talkin when u started, hmmm, must be my imagination}

No need to take that tone. Lets be grown up and just have fun debating. Isnt that what this forum is for?

In the beginning there was only God, and God created the Archangels Michael and Samael, also known as Lucifer Morningstar, the bringer of light. Michael used his power to create the first matter, and Lucifer's will shaped it into suns and thus the universe was created.

God preordained everything in the universe, everything was already written, and everything had to follow the script. Lucifer was a wise, caring and passionate angel and ultimately that was what brought about his downfall. The caring Lucifer questioned the Presence's master plan and the fact that he had to follow the plan too, and started a rebellion. Lucifer managed to get one third of the host of heaven under his banner and stormed the Silver City. The fight didn't go to well for Lucifer, his brother Michael had to much power in him, and pushed Lucifer's army to the edges of heaven, and finally, they were banished from Heaven.

Around ten billion years ago after falling for an eternity they would up in the metaphysical realm that would one day become known as Hell. Realizing that it would be impossible to return Lucifer began his reign in Hell and became the undisputed Lord of Evil for ages. Though being the most powerful of demons, he rarely ventured from his throne in Dis. Lucifer ruled hell for ten billion years, but he never liked it, he got bored, so bored he manipulated the demons who lived in hell. He set them one against the other, let them faction, divide and plot.

At the end of a course of events known as "American Gothic", connected to the world-shattering Crisis, a force called the Ultimate Darkness arose and merged with the Divine. This resulted in a civil war in Hell, something which ultimately made Lucifer allow it to be ruled by a Triumvirate consisting of Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies, Azazel the Abomination, and himself. This

One day, Dream of the Endless (Morpheus) decided it was time to get his ex-girlfriend out from hell, he was feeling a bit bad about sending her to hell and let her alone in that place for ten thousand years. Morpheus didn't want to go to hell; because the last time he visited the place, he embarrassed Lucifer, and Lucifer has never been very good in forgiving. But Lucifer was actually happy about Morpheus' visit, it gave him the opportunity to quite Hell. Lucifer kicked out everyone in hell, closed down all the doors and gave the key to Morpheus, hell no longer was the responsibility of Lucifer. Lucifer asked Morpheus to cut his wings, and Morpheus did.

Having walked on Earth for a short while Lucifer later settled down in the city of Los Angeles, where he opened his own piano bar called "The Lux". His girlfriend, the lilim Mazikeen, became a waitress, and Lucifer played the piano every night. For a while, this satisfied Lucifer, he no longer ruled hell like God wanted. But it didn't last, Amenadiel of the thrones showed up, Heaven needed someone to do some dirty work, and of course, they decided to hire Lucifer.

Lucifer had to kill the voiceless gods, forgotten deities from a time when men were not advanced enough to imagine anything better than dark clouds as deities. He accomplished his mission and killed the voiceless, and he received his reward, a letter of passage, which allowed Lucifer to leave creation and visit the void.

Needing his wings back to navigate in the void, Lucifer visited Izanami's hell, because Remiel (who by God's order became the next ruler of hell and found the wings there) had sold the wings to the Japanese gods. Lucifer could not enter Izanami's realm with his powers and his immortality, so he had to leave that at the door, so to speak. Lucifer entered the house of windowless rooms, outsmarted Izanami's children, and got his wings back.

Amenadiel took the armies of heaven under his command and attacked Lucifer, to close down the gate to the void. But Lucifer outsmarted them too, he put a monster he had recently hired on the other side to eat anyone who dared cross the gate to the void, and he also rescued his brother Michael from Sandalphon, another rebellious angel. Michael has the demiurgic power, if he dies, the power explodes and wipes out the entire multiverse. No angel dared to attack Lucifer while he carried Michael's body, and Lucifer had promised Michael, that he would kill him, which was the only way to heal Michael, because it would allow him to resurrect himself without all the scars Sandalphon gave him. Amenadiel had two choices, let Lucifer kill Michael in creation and destroy everything, or let Lucifer keep the gate and kill Michael in the void.

Lucifer took Michael into the void and killed him, the demiurgic power created matter in the void, like it did when it created the original multiverse. Lucifer later shaped the matter into a new multiverse, creating worlds and galaxies. He then invited anyone who wanted from God's cosmos to live in his cosmos.

Lucifer currently rules this new cosmos, and he only has one rule. You shall not worship anything, not even Lucifer, or you die.

TOAA The Source is the Crown of creation it sits on top of creation overlooking EVERYTHING. The Phoenix Force is used by The Source for the creation of Gods will , It is known that the Source was the catalyst used for creation of the physical Universe (it was the device used to create the material Universe). Lucifer and Michael created the Multiverse that is here now which is separated from the reality that is/was made by TOAA/The Source, though all of the universe's are connected in some way or another.

Originally posted by supremthor
In the beginning there was only God, and God created the Archangels Michael and Samael, also known as Lucifer Morningstar, the bringer of light. Michael used his power to create the first matter, and Lucifer's will shaped it into suns and thus the universe was created.

God preordained everything in the universe, everything was already written, and everything had to follow the script. Lucifer was a wise, caring and passionate angel and ultimately that was what brought about his downfall. The caring Lucifer questioned the Presence's master plan and the fact that he had to follow the plan too, and started a rebellion. Lucifer managed to get one third of the host of heaven under his banner and stormed the Silver City. The fight didn't go to well for Lucifer, his brother Michael had to much power in him, and pushed Lucifer's army to the edges of heaven, and finally, they were banished from Heaven.

Around ten billion years ago after falling for an eternity they would up in the metaphysical realm that would one day become known as Hell. Realizing that it would be impossible to return Lucifer began his reign in Hell and became the undisputed Lord of Evil for ages. Though being the most powerful of demons, he rarely ventured from his throne in Dis. Lucifer ruled hell for ten billion years, but he never liked it, he got bored, so bored he manipulated the demons who lived in hell. He set them one against the other, let them faction, divide and plot.

At the end of a course of events known as "American Gothic", connected to the world-shattering Crisis, a force called the Ultimate Darkness arose and merged with the Divine. This resulted in a civil war in Hell, something which ultimately made Lucifer allow it to be ruled by a Triumvirate consisting of Beelzebub, Lord of the Flies, Azazel the Abomination, and himself. This

One day, Dream of the Endless (Morpheus) decided it was time to get his ex-girlfriend out from hell, he was feeling a bit bad about sending her to hell and let her alone in that place for ten thousand years. Morpheus didn't want to go to hell; because the last time he visited the place, he embarrassed Lucifer, and Lucifer has never been very good in forgiving. But Lucifer was actually happy about Morpheus' visit, it gave him the opportunity to quite Hell. Lucifer kicked out everyone in hell, closed down all the doors and gave the key to Morpheus, hell no longer was the responsibility of Lucifer. Lucifer asked Morpheus to cut his wings, and Morpheus did.

Having walked on Earth for a short while Lucifer later settled down in the city of Los Angeles, where he opened his own piano bar called "The Lux". His girlfriend, the lilim Mazikeen, became a waitress, and Lucifer played the piano every night. For a while, this satisfied Lucifer, he no longer ruled hell like God wanted. But it didn't last, Amenadiel of the thrones showed up, Heaven needed someone to do some dirty work, and of course, they decided to hire Lucifer.

Lucifer had to kill the voiceless gods, forgotten deities from a time when men were not advanced enough to imagine anything better than dark clouds as deities. He accomplished his mission and killed the voiceless, and he received his reward, a letter of passage, which allowed Lucifer to leave creation and visit the void.

Needing his wings back to navigate in the void, Lucifer visited Izanami's hell, because Remiel (who by God's order became the next ruler of hell and found the wings there) had sold the wings to the Japanese gods. Lucifer could not enter Izanami's realm with his powers and his immortality, so he had to leave that at the door, so to speak. Lucifer entered the house of windowless rooms, outsmarted Izanami's children, and got his wings back.

Amenadiel took the armies of heaven under his command and attacked Lucifer, to close down the gate to the void. But Lucifer outsmarted them too, he put a monster he had recently hired on the other side to eat anyone who dared cross the gate to the void, and he also rescued his brother Michael from Sandalphon, another rebellious angel. Michael has the demiurgic power, if he dies, the power explodes and wipes out the entire multiverse. No angel dared to attack Lucifer while he carried Michael's body, and Lucifer had promised Michael, that he would kill him, which was the only way to heal Michael, because it would allow him to resurrect himself without all the scars Sandalphon gave him. Amenadiel had two choices, let Lucifer kill Michael in creation and destroy everything, or let Lucifer keep the gate and kill Michael in the void.

Lucifer took Michael into the void and killed him, the demiurgic power created matter in the void, like it did when it created the original multiverse. Lucifer later shaped the matter into a new multiverse, creating worlds and galaxies. He then invited anyone who wanted from God's cosmos to live in his cosmos.

Lucifer currently rules this new cosmos, and he only has one rule. You shall not worship anything, not even Lucifer, or you die.

Im well aware of the origins of Lucifer and Michael. I have Sandman 1 to 75 and Lucifer 1 to 65. I know about him. Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown, representative of the Crown/Presence in creation she is on an equal footing with the brothers. It is she who under the guidance of the crown who makes, maintains and then ends all of creation cyclically. So i dont understand why you posted this.

However the Phoenix power is derived from the Crown as is made quite clear in the comics. The Phoenix Force is shown to be the Source in crossovers. Dont think of it as an entity but instead as the power of the crown.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
TOAA is not the Source. It has never been revealed. Marvels equivalent of The Source as was made very clear in the crossover is the Phoenix Force.

The DC "god/angel thing" is based on kaballistic principles just like Marvel. The Presence equals Marvels Crown. They are the same thing just a different name is used. Kind of like puma and cougar. You need merely read up on the subject.

Phoenix Force is the creation power of the Crown. The White Crown Phoenix is the avatar of the Crown/Presence who does its bidding, who makes creation and maintains the creation cycle.

Yahweh and TOAA are the same thing for each comic book company

The Presence by its definition and by the principles behind it has a counterpart in Marvel which is the Crown (The source of the Phoenix power)

When the hell was the phoenix force depicted as the Source ?

The White Crown Phoenix(Jean) is an avatar of the Crown a representation of gods will and power within creation. It is this that makes creation and ends it. All according to the will of the Crown.

Yahweh/TOAA
Presence(The Crown)/TGEB/The Source(ThePhoenix Force)
Lucifer/Michael/White Crown Phoenix (Jean)
Living Tribunal/Spectre

Originally posted by kevdude
TOAA The Source is the Crown of creation it sits on top of creation overlooking EVERYTHING. The Phoenix Force is used by The Source for the creation of Gods will , It is known that the Source was the catalyst used for creation of the physical Universe (it was the device used to create the material Universe). Lucifer and Michael created the Multiverse that is here now which is separated from the reality that is/was made by TOAA/The Source, though all of the universe's are connected in some way or another.

You seem to be confusing yourself. The Phoenix Force was represented in the crossover as being one and the same as The Source. The White Crown Phoenix which is Jean is the tool here used by the supreme being to make creation. The Force is the power of the Crown which is something greater than either Jean or the brothers.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im well aware of the origins of Lucifer and Michael. I have Sandman 1 to 75 and Lucifer 1 to 65. I know about him. Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown, representative of the Crown/Presence in creation she is on an equal footing with the brothers. It is she who under the guidance of the crown who makes, maintains and then ends all of creation cyclically. So i dont understand why you posted this.

However the Phoenix power is derived from the Crown as is made quite clear in the comics. The Phoenix Force is shown to be the Source in crossovers. Dont think of it as an entity but instead as the power of the crown.

I dont get how some one that powerful, can be written about. Surely he can do anything he wants just by Thiking it. E.G. he wants his wings back, he gets them. The same with his brother. He needed to be rescued ?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im well aware of the origins of Lucifer and Michael. I have Sandman 1 to 75 and Lucifer 1 to 65. I know about him. Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown, representative of the Crown/Presence in creation she is on an equal footing with the brothers. It is she who under the guidance of the crown who makes, maintains and then ends all of creation cyclically. So i dont understand why you posted this.

However the Phoenix power is derived from the Crown as is made quite clear in the comics. The Phoenix Force is shown to be the Source in crossovers. Dont think of it as an entity but instead as the power of the crown.

I thought u meant the the PF was above the two brothers in terms of power.
i got a ? i m not shocking but can the saint of killers kill the PF?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You seem to be confusing yourself. The Phoenix Force was represented in the crossover as being one and the same as The Source. The White Crown Phoenix which is Jean is the tool here used by the supreme being to make creation. The Force is the power of the Crown which is something greater than either Jean or the brothers.

It is a crossover though !!!!!!!!!!

I just cant see how phoenix can be above Spectre, when they are generally aspects of God. Its like having a competition betweens ones arm and ones ability to speak french. I can understand why you believ its is above the L.T. (although i don't agree) but it cannot be above the Spectre.

Originally posted by yahman
It is a crossover though !!!!!!!!!!

I just cant see how phoenix can be above Spectre, when they are generally aspects of God. Its like having a competition betweens ones arm and ones ability to speak french. I can understand why you believ its is above the L.T. (although i don't agree) but it cannot be above the Spectre.

He is not literally Gods wrath. He is a fallen angel who sided with Lucifer in his rebellion and as such was exiled from Heaven. As a way of repenting for his sins he offered to represent Gods wrath in creation.

As for your point about the it being a crossover. So what? Sometimes the only way to compare characters is through crossovers and then its just up to us as comic book readers to decide if that representation made sense. Given that the Phoenix Force in Marvel is said to be the power of the Crown then that makes a whole lot of sense.

Originally posted by supremthor
I thought u meant the the PF was above the two brothers in terms of power.
i got a ? i m not shocking but can the saint of killers kill the PF?

You dont often hear me saying this but please make a distinction between Phoenix and the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force is the power of the Crown and as such is greater than either Jean or the brothers. Jean as the White Crown Phoenix is an avatar of this power. She represents the Crown within creation and is therefore on equal footing with the brothers. Both sides representing something far greater than themselves.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He is not literally Gods wrath. He is a fallen angel who sided with Lucifer in his rebellion and as such was exiled from Heaven. As a way of repenting for his sins he offered to represent Gods wrath in creation.

Are you sure he is a fallen angel ? I have always been under the impression he is apart of God himself. If so you are right. But if he is actually part of God then he is in the same catergory as the phoenix Force and the the Source, E.g. they are all aspects of the same thing.

'The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit'

Originally posted by yahman
Are you sure he is a fallen angel ? I have always been under the impression he is apart of God himself. If so you are right. But if he is actually part of God then he is in the same catergory as the phoenix Force and the the Source, E.g. they are all aspects of the same thing.

'The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit'

Thats the thing. We as posters are lead to believe a lot of things by fans who can have their way in arguments because of general forum ignorance. Well a few weeks back i decided to rectify the situation. I downloaded the entire Sandman and Lucifer series and read through it. As well as doing some research on Spectre.

Spectre was retconned into a fallen angel who sided with Lucifer. His role as spirit of vengeance is his way of repenting. He bonds with souls who seek redemption themselves in order to win back gods favour

Spectre - Set lose on Earth by the almighty Pressence in 776 BC, the Spectre is the mystical embodiment of God's wrath. When the angel Raphael, who rebelled against Heaven with Lucifer, repented his sins, God transformed him into an avenger that would inflict His wrath on sinful souls. - DC Encyclopedia.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Spectre was retconned into a fallen angel who sided with Lucifer. His role as spirit of vengeance is his way of repenting. He bonds with souls who seek redemption themselves in order to win back gods favour

What youre talking aobut here is.......

After the birth of Jesus, whose mission was to teach people compassion, the Pressence decreed that the spirits of vengeance and forgiveness should not exist on Earth at the same time. The Spectre bode his time in Limbo until Christ's death. Then, forced to bond with mortal souls to manifest his power, the Spectre leaped forth, meting out vengeance down the centuries.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Spectre - Set lose on Earth by the almighty Pressence in 776 BC, the Spectre is the mystical embodiment of God's wrath. When the angel Raphael, who rebelled against Heaven with Lucifer, repented his sins, God transformed him into an avenger that would inflict His wrath on sinful souls. - DC Encyclopedia.

Thank you JR.

It was Spectre that killed the first born of the Egyptians back in Biblical times.

He's a fallen angel. We know that the greatest of the angels are Lucifer and Michael. Theyre always handing him his ass

It has been a misconception that he is an aspect of God. He is a fallen angel who was transformed into the spirit of vengeance as a way of repenting.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It has been a misconception that he is an aspect of God. He is a fallen angel who was transformed into the spirit of vengeance as a way of repenting.

But he IS the wrath of God nonetheless GS.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats the thing. We as posters are lead to believe a lot of things by fans who can have their way in arguments because of general forum ignorance. Well a few weeks back i decided to rectify the situation. I downloaded the entire Sandman and Lucifer series and read through it. As well as doing some research on Spectre.

Spectre was retconned into a fallen angel who sided with Lucifer. His role as spirit of vengeance is his way of repenting. He bonds with souls who seek redemption themselves in order to win back gods favour

No need to get all righteous on me. My life is far interesting to have the time to go researching about D.C. version of Biblical events. But it seems you are right, so i will concede. Have you seen Dogma, you'd Love it.

Originally posted by jrodslam
But he IS the wrath of God nonetheless GS.

He is the wrath of God yes. He was a fallen angel transformed willingly as a way of repenting his sins into the spirit of vengeance, just like Norrin was transformed into the Silver Surfer. But he is not an aspect of God he is a tool of God.

Originally posted by yahman
No need to get all righteous on me. My life is far interesting to have the time to go researching about D.C. version of Biblical events. But it seems you are right, so i will concede. Have you seen Dogma, you'd Love it.

I have and i do love it

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
He is the wrath of God yes. He was a fallen angel transformed willingly as a way of repenting his sins into the spirit of vengeance, just like Norrin was transformed into the Silver Surfer. But he is not an aspect of God he is a tool of God.

Agree.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Theyre always handing him his ass

Are they?

Originally posted by jrodslam
But he IS the wrath of God nonetheless GS.

But he doesn't posses the powers of God does he ?

Originally posted by yahman
But he doesn't posses the powers of God does he ?

Powers of God meaning what? Creating his own universe? No.

But pretty much everything else, he can do. Especially if hes backed.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Powers of God meaning what? Creating his own universe? No.

But pretty much everything else, he can do. Especially if hes backed.

In a sense that Silver Surfer doesn't have the power of Galactus.

Originally posted by yahman
But he doesn't posses the powers of God does he ?

Well he would have been given sufficient cosmic and mystical might to ably carry out his role. But he doesnt possess the powers of God like Michael and Lucifer do.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well he would have been given sufficient cosmic and mystical might to ably carry out his role. But he doesnt possess the powers of God like Michael and Lucifer do.

I've just been doing some research and apparently before Pre Crisis he did actually have the power of God. He was below Michael though. E.G. there was an incident where Michael gave him an order and he obeyed. He was seen as an aspect of God, E.G. like the Source.

Originally posted by yahman
I've just been doing some research and apparently before Pre Crisis he did actually have the power of God. He was below Michael though. E.G. there was an incident where Michael gave him an order and he obeyed. He was seen as an aspect of God, E.G. like the Source.

I know, then a funny thing called a retcon happened which means that idea is now ignored like it never existed

Hmm...

I still question that hierarchy a bit. I see Spectre and Tribunal as equals, but I'm not so sure the Angels are above them.

Spectre is the embodiment of DC God's Wrath/Vengence and is commissioned, on occasion, to slay on God's behalf (Read Identity Crisis to get an idea of what I'm talking about). When not commissioned by God he's pretty much a jabroni, but he is an embodiment of the will of God, so when God wills him fully to complete a task, Spectre can fulfill it.

Living Tribunal is the judge, jury, executioner and caretaker of all creation in Marvel until the time comes when TOAA, through Phoenix, ends creation to start it anew. He's the judgement and protection aspect of TOAA, if you will, but he's simply not always necessary because at some points TOAA does not deem it necessary to protect creation (like, for instance, when he chooses to END IT through Phoenix).

My hierarchy would place Yahweh/TOAA/GEB (Polar opposite of God) on top, with their aspects (Creator, Protector, Judge, Vengence) second and the Angels third. If Yahweh comissioned his vengence (Spectre) to kill Lucifer or Michael, I'm pretty sure it could do it, so I don't see them as 'superior' to Spectre, per se. That being said, the purposes of both Michael and Lucifer makes them very unlikely to be destroyed by God, so Spectre more than likely would never be used in that capacity; not that he couldn't be, just that he wouldn't be.

The point that would cause the most conflict is the fact that if Michael and Lucifer were in Marvel, Phoenix (TOAA's creation aspect/power) would technically have been used to create them (like the Source), and LT would be there to judge and discipline them if they got out of line.

Not a popular line of reasoning, but logical if you think about it.

But anyway, I see it as:

1) God (Known as TOAA or Yahweh) and Great Evil Beast (God's Polar Opposite; The Darkness to the Light)
2) Aspects of God/TOAA: Creator (The Source/"Phoenix Force", The Presence, The Word.
3) Emmissaries of God: Spectre* (embodiment of God's Vengence), White Crown Phoenix: Jean Grey (Carries out Will of God within creation to usher in the cycle of life, death, and rebirth), Living Tribunal** (Protector and Judge of God's Creation; Keeps order so Phoenix can fulfill it's purpose in creation), Michael, Lucifer.
4)"God"/Nemesis/some refer to it as the "Infinity Being";
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/nemesise2.jpg

I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with Ultra Force or the Ultraverse storyline in Marvel, but they had a story arc with the 7th "Ego" (sentience) Gem of the Infinity Gems, which combined all of the gems into the composite being known as "Nemesis", or the Infinity Being. With the other gems taking on a kind of sentience themselves, the being became disrupted, and was broken back down into its separate aspects by the Black Knight, so basically it became a non factor once again. Nemesis is/was the first creation of TOAA in Marvel (so, technically, Phoenix created her) that committed 'suicide', and in doing so birth the current universe. This being is referred to as 'God' in Thanos Quest #2 and also in Ultra Force (circa 1995), so it did exist. It may just be an embodiment of Eternity from the previous universe (Galactus's home universe) that splintered into the 7 gems within the newly formed 616 universe during the Big Crunch (along with Galan/Galactus).

If so, it was far more powerful than any abstract we know of in the current 616, so it should make the list just behind the top dogs and above the abstracts.


* - Spectre is the embodiment of God's Wrath. If God wants someone pwn3d, they are pwn3d. Nothing should be above God's wrath, logically. Some things may simply not incur God's wrath, however.
** - Tribunal and Phoenix are somewhat symbiotic. Tribunal isn't necessary unless Phoenix is fulfilling it's purpose as creator/destroyer. Tribunal can't protect unless Phoenix creates, and when Phoenix destroys, Tribunal's protection, logically, isn't warranted.

But anyway, that's my take.

Originally posted by illadelph12
Hmm...

I still question that hierarchy a bit. I see Spectre and Tribunal as equals, but I'm not so sure the Angels are above them.

Spectre is the embodiment of DC God's Wrath/Vengence and is commissioned, on occasion, to slay on God's behalf (Read Identity Crisis to get an idea of what I'm talking about). When not commissioned by God he's pretty much a jabroni, but he is an embodiment of the will of God, so when God wills him fully to complete a task, Spectre can fulfill it.

Living Tribunal is the judge, jury, executioner and caretaker of all creation in Marvel until the time comes when TOAA, through Phoenix, ends creation to start it anew. He's the judgement and protection aspect of TOAA, if you will, but he's simply not always necessary because at some points TOAA does not deem it necessary to protect creation (like, for instance, when he chooses to END IT through Phoenix).

My hierarchy would place Yahweh/TOAA/GEB (Polar opposite of God) on top, with their aspects (Creator, Protector, Judge, Vengence) second and the Angels third. If Yahweh comissioned his vengence (Spectre) to kill Lucifer or Michael, I'm pretty sure it could do it, so I don't see them as 'superior' to Spectre, per se. That being said, the purposes of both Michael and Lucifer makes them very unlikely to be destroyed by God, so Spectre more than likely would never be used in that capacity; not that he couldn't be, just that he wouldn't be.

The point that would cause the most conflict is the fact that if Michael and Lucifer were in Marvel, Phoenix (TOAA's creation aspect/power) would technically have been used to create them (like the Source), and LT would be there to judge and discipline them if they got out of line.

Not a popular line of reasoning, but logical if you think about it.

But anyway, I see it as:

1) God (Known as TOAA or Yahweh) and Great Evil Beast (God's Polar Opposite; The Darkness to the Light)
2) Aspects of God/TOAA: Creator (The Source/"Phoenix Force", The Presence, The Word.
3) Emmissaries of God: Spectre* (embodiment of God's Vengence), White Crown Phoenix: Jean Grey (Carries out Will of God within creation to usher in the cycle of life, death, and rebirth), Living Tribunal** (Protector and Judge of God's Creation; Keeps order so Phoenix can fulfill it's purpose in creation), Michael, Lucifer.
4)"God"/Nemesis/some refer to it as the "Infinity Being";
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/nemesise2.jpg

I'm not sure how many of you are familiar with Ultra Force or the Ultraverse storyline in Marvel, but they had a story arc with the 7th "Ego" (sentience) Gem of the Infinity Gems, which combined all of the gems into the composite being known as "Nemesis", or the Infinity Being. With the other gems taking on a kind of sentience themselves, the being became disrupted, and was broken back down into its separate aspects by the Black Knight, so basically it became a non factor once again. Nemesis is/was the first creation of TOAA in Marvel (so, technically, Phoenix created her) that committed 'suicide', and in doing so birth the current universe. This being is referred to as 'God' in Thanos Quest #2 and also in Ultra Force (circa 1995), so it did exist. It may just be an embodiment of Eternity from the previous universe (Galactus's home universe) that splintered into the 7 gems within the newly formed 616 universe during the Big Crunch (along with Galan/Galactus).

If so, it was far more powerful than any abstract we know of in the current 616, so it should make the list just behind the top dogs and above the abstracts.


* - Spectre is the embodiment of God's Wrath. If God wants someone pwn3d, they are pwn3d. Nothing should be above God's wrath, logically. Some things may simply not incur God's wrath, however.
** - Tribunal and Phoenix are somewhat symbiotic. Tribunal isn't necessary unless Phoenix is fulfilling it's purpose as creator/destroyer. Tribunal can't protect unless Phoenix creates, and when Phoenix destroys, Tribunal's protection, logically, isn't warranted.

But anyway, that's my take.

Thats not bad ILL. You've changed your tune slightly from that last Phoenix thread. It doesnt diverge at all really from what me and Xplosive were saying so ive got no issue with it. Good post.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I know, then a funny thing called a retcon happened which means that idea is now ignored like it never existed

Umm the multiverse did, but Spectre is on a another level completely. He being such as the Anti Monitor would not be able to didly squat to him. Its like saying that Lucifer and God where changed by the Crisis incident.

Originally posted by yahman
Umm the multiverse did, but Spectre is on a another level completely. He being such as the Anti Monitor would not be able to didly squat to him. Its like saying that Lucifer and God where changed by the Crisis incident.

Sorry about the terrible english, i was trying to have a conversation with someone at the time.

Oh yeh the guy before G.S. just posted something very interesting. Conudrum is that Phoenix created Spectre, but with God's will Spectre would be able to destroy the phoenix. It seems to me as if they are pretty even.

Originally posted by yahman
Umm the multiverse did, but Spectre is on a another level completely. He being such as the Anti Monitor would not be able to didly squat to him. Its like saying that Lucifer and God where changed by the Crisis incident.

If you'd actually read the Crisis you'd know that Spectre fought Anti-M and got punked. Also i wasnt referring to that retcon, but instead a spectre specific one which made him a fallen angel.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats not bad ILL. You've changed your tune slightly from that last Phoenix thread. It doesnt diverge at all really from what me and Xplosive were saying so ive got no issue with it. Good post.

Yeah, I figured you'd like that.

But that's because I hadn't posted my catch 22 post yet, GS.

LT, Spectre, and Jean are all one with aspects of 'God':

LT* = TOAA's Protection and Judgement of creation (embodiment of)
Spectre - God's Wrath (embodiment of)
Jean* - TOAA's Power to create and destroy (Jean is genetically one with it, so basically an embodiment of)

In a sense, they are, technically, equal to the Source/Phoenix Force in terms of power, but not in terms of purpose (and in the case of Spectre, use, since he's empowered by decree).

LT and Jean can freely bring to bear the full force of their power supply if and when it's necessary, which happens to be one in the same:

TOAA.

They are simply bound by their role and purpose, but they have infinite power.

Spectre's power is granted by the will of God, so he doesn't have the free choice to be omnipotent when he himself would deem it necessary, but he certainly has the capacity.

So, technically, the "power" hierarchy should be:

1a)Yahweh, TOAA, GOD Evil Beast
1b) Source and Phoenix Force/Jean (since they are one in the same), LT (TOAA's Protection and Judgement), Spectre (God's Vengence), The Word, The Presence.

All these beings above are aspects of the same being, TOAA/Yahweh, just with different names, roles, and purposes. They all have the same power from the same source. Even the Great Evil Beast is simply God's Dark Nature and opposite if you think about it logically. How is God's own will to destroy more powerful than God's own will to protect and/or God's own will to create and/or God's own will for vengence and/or God's own capacity for good and/or God's own capacity for evil?

How can God's will be more powerful than God's will?

That's a paradox.

Only difference between them all is purpose in the grand scheme, and some purposes supercede others. Other than that, they are all equals in terms of 'power'.

Then you'd have:

2)Lucifer and Michael, individually (since neither alone can wield the full will of Yahweh).

and

3)Nemesis aka the Infinity Being.



Now, before DC fans jump on my back for putting Spectre above Lucifer and Michael, really think about the premise of the character:

Spectre is God's Wrath. God's will for vengence personified (but not always fully empowered).

Lucifer and Michael are high ranking archangels that God created to work for him.

Can a creation of God be more powerful than God's own will?

Answer that.

But anyway, that's my logical, non politically correct, "stir the pot" take GS.

Hope you enjoy.

Originally posted by yahman
Sorry about the terrible english, i was trying to have a conversation with someone at the time.

Oh yeh the guy before G.S. just posted something very interesting. Conudrum is that Phoenix created Spectre, but with God's will Spectre would be able to destroy the phoenix. It seems to me as if they are pretty even.

Theres a difference between The Phoenix Force(The Source) and the avatar (Jean) Spectre isnt equal to Jean or the brothers in the scheme of things. He is not as powerful. However if God wanted to take out the brothers or Jean he could empower him to do so. However in the normal scheme of things he doesnt have the power to do so and God as ILL rightly said wouldnt want to destroy Jean or the brothers because of their roles in creation. For goodness sake TOAA could empower Aunt May to take out Jean or the brothers but thats irrelevant. In the scheme of things both they and Jean while peers of the Spectre are certainly more powerful.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If you'd actually read the Crisis you'd know that Spectre fought Anti-M and got punked. Also i wasnt referring to that retcon, but instead a spectre specific one which made him a fallen angel.

Well now you've found out im a fraud, Im going to jump off a bridge somewhere.

In DC there is the Light and the Darkness - See Alan Moores swamp thing which seem to be yet another DC version of reality, could be the ultimate expression of the multiverse. Both live with each other in harmony. Yin and Yang. Both have aspects of each other inside them e.g. light has shadow. This concept need no rebirth as it is a constant beyond the birth, death and creation of universes.

DCU is much more complex, its abstracts like the Endless are much more sdophisticated and again beyond a single universe. Comparing the ideas of DCU with Marvel U on this are impossible. Phoenix is below all these concepts. because Phoenix (the force) has shown "desire" to know flesh. "Delerium" at various times, etc. The fact we have attributed light and dark to its avaters shows the force is molded by these concepts. In truth Phoenix is a mainstream childs character, like the Spectre and well below many DC abstracts by its very nature, which is molded by these abstract ideas.

Game Over.

Keep the faith

Stay Whirly

I thought THe Presence was the supreme being in DCU. When did they say anything about Yahweh?

Originally posted by Superherovandal
I thought THe Presence was the supreme being in DCU. When did they say anything about Yahweh?

It didn't

Ok now let me get started, Yahweh created everything from nothing, it was God's Will (TOAA/The Source) and Gods Holy Presence (The Holy Spirit/The Presence) that made it possible for everything to live, which made it possible for God to be made into flesh so he could live with his creations.

The Living Tribunal was created shortly after the reality was here before the DC/Marvel Multiverses, his role like The Phoenix Forces role is to make sure Gods Will is done. The Living Tribunal works for TOAA/The Source who is physicaly above everything in the universe's, TOAA has never been seen in Marvel but that does not mean The Source and it are not the same because they are. The Phoenix Force is an abstract of TOAA/The Sources Will helping it to make sure the universe is working correctly. TOAA and The Source is Yahweh's/Gods Will. The Source is the Crown of Creation, The Crown means being above which is what The Source/TOAA is. TOAA/The Source is a gold color being, the beings that represent him are also a goldish color, like how The Living Tribunal is gold or The Phoenix Force. It has recently developed a living incarnation in Takion which is also gold.

The Presence is The Holy Spirit, the Presence proceeds from Yahweh, anything in Gods Holy Presence that is a lie he will know about because The Presence searches all things and looks into everyones head even Gods mind it looks in. NOTHING is above Yahweh/The Presence, when someone is talking to The Presence they are indirectly talking to Yahweh. The can somewhat also be said for The Source as well but he is not in The Silver City because that is not his purpose.

from Gods Will and through The Presence's Voice (The Voice) he speaks The Word aka The Logos/Jesus Christ, Gods manifestation in the physical universe. all of these beings are God, you can NOT bring any of them down or lower how they rate.. The First of the Fallen was kicked out of The Silver City by The Presence for questioning Gods choice to create beings of free will. Lucifer Morningstar was kicked out of the Silver City for wanted to join the Holy Trinity, he asked if The Word could talk with Yahweh/The Presence then he could also and help God with his plans, this pissed off the angels in Heaven and they all said he was trying to put himself next to The Word and be like the most High in the Silver City. When the war was over in Heaven The Spectre (one of Gods angels) fell to hell, he went back to The Silver City to ask God if he could return, he told the Archangel Michael who would not allow him to come into The Silver City he could not stand being away from God's Holy Presence, after this he was allowed to talk with The Presence who recreated him into a Spirit and made him God's new Wrath, The Spectre Force is what the Divine power is called and The Presence renamed him The Spectre (his name before that was Aztar) his mind was whipped clean so he doesn't know anything that happened and can function perfectly like how Gods Wraths should.

The Great Evil Beast was created so everyone that wanted to live could live if anyone would not choose to live by how God/Yahweh planned it is then used so they would die and never return (because God let them choose there own destiny). The Great Beast has joined with the Divine, this caused a war in Hell and Lucifer then ruled it with 2 other beings. now that Lucifer is out of Hell the new ruler is Christopher Rudd. The First of the Fallen has become a major player in Hells hierarchy since Lucifer has left as well.

This is how the ranking should BE:
1. Yahweh/The Presence/The Source"TOAA"/The Beast
2. The Voice/The Word
3. Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael
4. The Spectre full powered/The Living Tribunal

the reason Lucifer and Michael are above The Spectre and The Living Tribunal is because Spectre has lost i believe 2 times vs Michael, the 2nd time The Spectre was very poweful and Michael still won (even though it was a tough fight) The Spectre was amazed at how much punishment and power Michael had, he asked Michael how he was able to win, Michael told him "everything is connected with The Presence in 1 form or another its just how much Will POWER you have to win". The Spectre didn't even try to fight Lucifer when he was moving the moon once, The Spectre asked him wtf he was doing and Lucifer told him it was NONE of his business and to go away, The Spectre then hung his head down and disappeared, Lucifer is way to smart for Spectre. Thanos had THOTU which made him have Gods power in the Marvel Universe and The Living Tribunal along with Eternity both lost. Lucifer and Michael would win vs Thanos with THOTU if they didn't mess around.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
In DC there is the Light and the Darkness - See Alan Moores swamp thing which seem to be yet another DC version of reality, could be the ultimate expression of the multiverse. Both live with each other in harmony. Yin and Yang. Both have aspects of each other inside them e.g. light has shadow. This concept need no rebirth as it is a constant beyond the birth, death and creation of universes.

DCU is much more complex, its abstracts like the Endless are much more sdophisticated and again beyond a single universe. Comparing the ideas of DCU with Marvel U on this are impossible. Phoenix is below all these concepts. because Phoenix (the force) has shown "desire" to know flesh. "Delerium" at various times, etc. The fact we have attributed light and dark to its avaters shows the force is molded by these concepts. In truth Phoenix is a mainstream childs character, like the Spectre and well below many DC abstracts by its very nature, which is molded by these abstract ideas.

Game Over.

The force has shown no such things because it cant. It isnt an entity it is literally the the power of the Crown. Please embrace the concept of the retcon

Keep the faith

Stay Whirly


The force has shown no such things because it cant. It isnt an entity it is literally the the power of the Crown. Please embrace the concept of retcon

The avatars the tools used by Crown. The Crown decided a human touch was desirable for its creation work as stated by Jean in Xmen The End so your post while nicely worded doesnt change anything. The game is far from over.

Originally posted by kevdude
Ok now let me get started, Yahweh created everything from nothing, it was God's Will (TOAA/The Source) and Gods Holy Presence (The Holy Spirit/The Presence) that made it possible for everything to live, which made it possible for God to be made into flesh so he could live with his creations.

The Living Tribunal was created shortly after the reality was here before the DC/Marvel Multiverses, his role like The Phoenix Forces role is to make sure Gods Will is done. The Living Tribunal works for TOAA/The Source who is physicaly above everything in the universe's, TOAA has never been seen in Marvel but that does not mean The Source and it are not the same because they are. The Phoenix Force is an abstract of TOAA/The Sources Will helping it to make sure the universe is working correctly. TOAA and The Source is Yahweh's/Gods Will. The Source is the Crown of Creation, The Crown means being above which is what The Source/TOAA is. TOAA/The Source is a gold color being, the beings that represent him are also a goldish color, like how The Living Tribunal is gold or The Phoenix Force. It has recently developed a living incarnation in Takion which is also gold.

The Presence is The Holy Spirit, the Presence proceeds from Yahweh, anything in Gods Holy Presence that is a lie he will know about because The Presence searches all things and looks into everyones head even Gods mind it looks in. NOTHING is above Yahweh/The Presence, when someone is talking to The Presence they are indirectly talking to Yahweh. The can somewhat also be said for The Source as well but he is not in The Silver City because that is not his purpose.

from Gods Will and through The Presence's Voice (The Voice) he speaks The Word aka The Logos/Jesus Christ, Gods manifestation in the physical universe. all of these beings are God, you can NOT bring any of them down or lower how they rate.. The First of the Fallen was kicked out of The Silver City by The Presence for questioning Gods choice to create beings of free will. Lucifer Morningstar was kicked out of the Silver City for wanted to join the Holy Trinity, he asked if The Word could talk with Yahweh/The Presence then he could also and help God with his plans, this pissed off the angels in Heaven and they all said he was trying to put himself next to The Word and be like the most High in the Silver City. When the war was over in Heaven The Spectre (one of Gods angels) fell to hell, he went back to The Silver City to ask God if he could return, he told the Archangel Michael who would not allow him to come into The Silver City he could not stand being away from God's Holy Presence, after this he was allowed to talk with The Presence who recreated him into a Spirit and made him God's new Wrath, The Spectre Force is what the Divine power is called and The Presence renamed him The Spectre (his name before that was Aztar) his mind was whipped clean so he doesn't know anything that happened and can function perfectly like how Gods Wraths should.

The Great Evil Beast was created so everyone that wanted to live could live if anyone would not choose to live by how God/Yahweh planned it is then used so they would die and never return (because God let them choose there own destiny). The Great Beast has joined with the Divine, this caused a war in Hell and Lucifer then ruled it with 2 other beings. now that Lucifer is out of Hell the new ruler is Christopher Rudd. The First of the Fallen has become a major player in Hells hierarchy since Lucifer has left as well.

This is how the ranking should BE:
1. Yahweh/The Presence/The Source"TOAA"/The Beast
2. The Voice/The Word
3. Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael
4. The Spectre full powered/The Living Tribunal

the reason Lucifer and Michael are above The Spectre and The Living Tribunal is because Spectre has lost i believe 2 times vs Michael, the 2nd time The Spectre was very poweful and Michael still won (even though it was a tough fight) The Spectre was amazed at how much punishment and power Michael had, he asked Michael how he was able to win, Michael told him "everything is connected with The Presence in 1 form or another its just how much Will POWER you have to win". The Spectre didn't even try to fight Lucifer when he was moving the moon once, The Spectre asked him wtf he was doing and Lucifer told him it was NONE of his business and to go away, The Spectre then hung his head down and disappeared, Lucifer is way to smart for Spectre. Thanos had THOTU which made him have Gods power in the Marvel Universe and The Living Tribunal along with Eternity both lost. Lucifer and Michael would win vs Thanos with THOTU if they didn't mess around.

TOAA is Marvels supreme being. Whether or not it is supreme in a Yahweh like fashion or is just an aspect of something higher is unknown because little has been revealed. However you have no evidence whatsoever that TOAA is Marvels equivalent of The Source and if anything that contradicts with many things previously established. You're making you're mind up based on an insufficient grasp on the kaballah principles so please let me tell you that you are very wrong.

Crown and Presence are Kaballah terms meaning the same thing. Crown also refers to sitting above creation but you are mistakenly taking that as the be and end all of it and just because the Source is apparently outside of creation you're lumping it and Marvels Crown as the same. That is wrong. Crown and Presence are the same thing. They are both the highest emanation points for the essence of the suprme being. That is what the terms mean. They are both not the be all and end all of the supreme being but are instead sephirah. Emanation points for the supreme being the unimanifest god to pour his essence into creation. The Crown represents the closest creation and any being can get to union with the supreme being. As such all of the other sephirah (aspects) are connected/represented by the crown as they are after just different facets of the the supreme being with the Crown being the closest union to the complete supreme being of Marvel. TOAA presumably.

The creation aspect of marvel, (The Phoenix Force) the power of the Crown is the equivalent of DC's Source as has clearly been depicted in the past. They both sit apart from creation ( The force resides in the Crown) and they both are the power used to make creation so this link that was made between them in the comics makes sense. The Phoenix Force is the Source in crossover terms.

Although they are bound together sometimes you need to make a distinction between Jean (The White Crown Phoenix) and the Phoenix Force. The phoenix force is the aspect, the creation power that Jean taps into. Jean is the tool used by the Crown to carry out Gods will. Ok? The Force is not an entity but the power of the Crown, the power that keeps creation together and continually going.

Illadelph was spot on I.M.O:

1) God (Known as TOAA or Yahweh) and Great Evil Beast (God's Polar Opposite; The Darkness to the Light)
2) Aspects of God/TOAA: Creator (The Source/"Phoenix Force", The Presence/The Crown, The Word.
3) Emmissaries of God: Spectre* (embodiment of God's Vengence), White Crown Phoenix: Jean Grey (Carries out Will of God within creation to usher in the cycle of life, death, and rebirth), Living Tribunal** (Protector and Judge of God's Creation; Keeps order so Phoenix can fulfill it's purpose in creation), Michael, Lucifer.
4)"God"/Nemesis/some refer to it as the "Infinity Being";

whew

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

1) God (Known as TOAA or Yahweh) and Great Evil Beast (God's Polar Opposite; The Darkness to the Light)
2) Aspects of God/TOAA: Creator (The Source/"Phoenix Force", The Presence/The Crown, The Word.
3) Emmissaries of God: Spectre* (embodiment of God's Vengence), White Crown Phoenix: Jean Grey (Carries out Will of God within creation to usher in the cycle of life, death, and rebirth), Living Tribunal** (Protector and Judge of God's Creation; Keeps order so Phoenix can fulfill it's purpose in creation), Michael, Lucifer.
4)"God"/Nemesis/some refer to it as the "Infinity Being";

I can't give GEB as equal to Yahwh, I mean God defeted and threw GEB down and put him to sleep.

TOO MANY DISGUSTING PHEONIX GROUPIES, ITS ENOUGH TO MAKE ME PUKE.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I can't give GEB as equal to Yahwh, I mean God defeted and threw GEB down and put him to sleep.

Its a compromise so we can stop debating lol. I still lean towards my hierarchy but to end this cycle i wont argue against Illadelphs whic doesnt diverge too much from the one me and you believe to be right.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
TOO MANY DISGUSTING PHEONIX GROUPIES, ITS ENOUGH TO MAKE ME PUKE.

Grow up Leon. We're all just debating nicely theres no need for that.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
TOO MANY DISGUSTING PHEONIX GROUPIES, ITS ENOUGH TO MAKE ME PUKE.

indeed they don't listen to others but expect us to take them seriously. They argue apples and oranges. The logic is totally flawed.

Isn't the Great Evil Beast the Dark that balances Yahweh's light? I thought Yahweh expelled the GEB from himself. It's like a manifestation of Yahweh's dark side of consciousness that he expelled from his being, right? Did I miss a retcon?

And Spectre's powers work in the same way that He-Man's do, being that he is given a degree of power necessitated by the task at hand. I wouldn't put him below Michael or Lucifer for the simple fact that at a moments notice Spectre could become the instrument of their destruction should Yahweh will it.

I wouldn't put TGEB next to Yahweh himself, YHWH can't really be explained can he??? he is The Father, his ways are not our ways, we can't begin to understand what he is because he is to far above and powerful for anyone to understand, he simply just IS. without him sitting on the Throne everything is falling apart, even Lucifer's own universe is falling apart because God is gone.

About The Source/TOAA, you yourself have said The Phoenix Force is 1 of TOAA's abstracts, if TPF went directly into The Source, that means they are telling everyone, HEY THIS IS TOAA without saying it out loud. Its common sense. My ranking should be right . The White Crown Phoenix does seem to differ from the regular Phoenix Force, and I would agree then that the White Crown Phoenix is used by The Presence..

Originally posted by kevdude

About The Source/TOAA, you yourself have said The Phoenix Force is 1 of TOAA's abstracts, if TPF went directly into The Source, that means they are telling everyone, HEY THIS IS TOAA without saying it out loud. Its common sense. My ranking should be right . The White Crown Phoenix does seem to differ from the regular Phoenix Force, and I would agree then that the White Crown Phoenix is used by The Presence..

No i said the Phoenix Force is one of the supreme beings ASPECTS. Just like Yahwehs aspects are the Presence, the Source, the Word etc. The Phoenix Force is the equivalent of the Source in Marvel. Just one of the parts that make up the whole that is TOAA. The crossover was attempting to show the the Phoenix Force and the Source as one and the same. That does not mean that the Source equals TOAA because the Phoenix Force isnt the sum total of Marvels supreme being.

Originally posted by illadelph12


Isn't the Great Evil Beast the Dark that balances Yahweh's light? I thought Yahweh expelled the GEB from himself. It's like a manifestation of Yahweh's dark side of consciousness that he expelled from his being, right? Did I miss a retcon?

And Spectre's powers work in the same way that He-Man's do, being that he is given a degree of power necessitated by the task at hand. I wouldn't put him below Michael or Lucifer for the simple fact that at a moments notice Spectre could become the instrument of their destruction should Yahweh will it.

Yahweh is not really the Godhead in DC unlike Marvel it doesn't retconn in the same way galactic storm believes Marvel does (I am not sure Marvel does it GS's way either). "Primordial Light and Dark, unknowing yet sentient" maybe DC's creation, more primitive, primordial and simpler according to Swampthing.

but where does DC mention Yahweh? Isn't Presence supreme in DCU?

The Presence is what proceeds from Yahweh, it is his Holy Presence, I believe it is just to hard to look through The Presence to actually see Yahweh, but neverless he is still there. The Presence is supreme he is number 1, without Yahweh/"The Presence" the whole universe would fall apart (which is happening in DC).

Originally posted by kevdude
The Presence is what proceeds from Yahweh, it is his Holy Presence, I believe it is just to hard to look through The Presence to actually see Yahweh, but neverless he is still there. The Presence is supreme he is number 1, without Yahweh/"The Presence" the whole universe would fall apart (which is happening in DC).

True. Presence/Crown is the closest creation can get to the unknowable, unmanifest God. It is the strongest emanation of gods essence.

Show me Yahweh emntioned to do with the presence
or any DC Godhead as many exist

what the heck is yahweh, ive never heard of it, no where in dc or vertigo.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
True. Presence/Crown is the closest creation can get to the unknowable, unmanifest God. It is the strongest emanation of gods essence.


JESUS FN CHRIST GLACTIC STORM, IS THE SOUND OF UR OWN VOICE THE ONLY ONE UR CAPABLE OF HEARING, DUDE IM CONCERNED ABOUT U, REALLY, ITS LIKE U HAVE SOME DISORDER OR SUMTHIN.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
JESUS FN CHRIST GLACTIC STORM, IS THE SOUND OF UR OWN VOICE THE ONLY ONE UR CAPABLE OF HEARING, DUDE IM CONCERNED ABOUT U, REALLY, ITS LIKE U HAVE SOME DISORDER OR SUMTHIN.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
JESUS FN CHRIST GLACTIC STORM, IS THE SOUND OF UR OWN VOICE THE ONLY ONE UR CAPABLE OF HEARING, DUDE IM CONCERNED ABOUT U, REALLY, ITS LIKE U HAVE SOME DISORDER OR SUMTHIN.

indeed

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Show me Yahweh emntioned to do with the presence
or any DC Godhead as many exist



In issue 39 of Lucifer Yahweh describes Lucifer and Michael as his children. He says how he created them.

In issue 40 Michael after finding out of his fathers plans (which favoured Lucifer above him) via a pool which could see into Yahwehs thoughts. Michael angrily goes to see speak to his "father" to confront him in person. To do this Michael goes to the Primum Mobile to speak to the Presence.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
JESUS FN CHRIST GLACTIC STORM, IS THE SOUND OF UR OWN VOICE THE ONLY ONE UR CAPABLE OF HEARING, DUDE IM CONCERNED ABOUT U, REALLY, ITS LIKE U HAVE SOME DISORDER OR SUMTHIN.

Im still waiting for the answers to my "stupid questions" from a few days back. I await your reply

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In issue 39 of Lucifer Yahweh describes Lucifer and Michael as his children. He says how he created them.

In issue 40 Michael after finding out of his fathers plans (which favoured Lucifer above him) via a pool which could see into Yahwehs thoughts. Michael angrily goes to see speak to his "father" to confront him in person. To do this Michael goes to the Primum Mobile to speak to the Presence.

Yes but Yahweh is only one version of Godhead in DC, and in fact due to its accesibility less likely to be above the Source. The Darkness and Light are at least equal to Yahweh or the Source.

Apples and Oranges, I await answers to millions of my questions but never get them

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im still waiting for the answers to my "stupid questions" from a few days back. I await your reply

ohhh FORGIVE ME FOR NOT TAKIN ANY QUESTIONS U POSTED TOO SERIOUSLY, HOWEVER IF U WANT AN ANSWER THAT BADLY, POST EM AGAIN N ILL BE HAPPY TO QUENCH UR THIRST FOR COMIC RELATED "EDUCATION"{though i doubt u have it in u to actually LEARN}

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Yes but Yahweh is only one version of Godhead in DC, and in fact due to its accesibility less likely to be above the Source. The Darkness and Light are at least equal to Yahweh or the Source.

Apples and Oranges, I await answers to millions of my questions but never get them

You asked me to show you where Yahweh was mentioned with Presence.I delivered.

Instead of accepting that in a typical Whirly manner you instead "moved the goal posts" as it were.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
ohhh FORGIVE ME FOR NOT TAKIN ANY QUESTIONS U POSTED TOO SERIOUSLY, HOWEVER IF U WANT AN ANSWER THAT BADLY, POST EM AGAIN N ILL BE HAPPY TO QUENCH UR THIRST FOR COMIC RELATED "EDUCATION"{though i doubt u have it in u to actually LEARN}

Grow up Leon.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You asked me to show you where Yahweh was mentioned with Presence.I delivered.

Instead of accepting that in a typical Whirly manner you instead "moved the goal posts" as it were.


oh but u know quite as well as i do that by MENTIONED, i meant mentioned as being on par with or above the presence, it is sensless to ask any other way, but i guess lack of education can make a man so dum as to make a mistake like that, dont worry GS, being retarted is not a sin.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Grow up Leon.

isnt it rude to put emotionally handicapped people down?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
isnt it rude to put emotionally handicapped people down?

yes it is

Originally posted by leonheartmm
oh but u know quite as well as i do that by MENTIONED, i meant mentioned as being on par with or above the presence, it is sensless to ask any other way, but i guess lack of education can make a man so dum as to make a mistake like that, dont worry GS, being retarted is not a sin.

My post was directed at Whirly which is the reason i quoted him. So what youre going on about here is puzzling to say the least.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
isnt it rude to put emotionally handicapped people down?

Originally posted by leonheartmm
isnt it rude to put emotionally handicapped people down?

Which is why I never respond to personal insults, beyond stating thats what people are trying to do, thats why I have a pedestal

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Which is why I never respond to personal insults, beyond stating thats what people are trying to do, thats why I have a pedestal


No acknowledgement yet again. But such poor sportmanship ive come to expect from you these days anyway.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


let me spell it our for u GS, emotionally handicapped people{that is referring to you dear}, are not stupid and helpless because they are EVIL, it is not their fault {meaning its not ur fault dear} that u cant think of anything other than ur own silly little self, and it would be rude of an old person like me to kick the ass of a retarted little 7 year old like you dear.{that is YOU galactic storm, DEAR, now do u understand}

Originally posted by leonheartmm
let me spell it our for u GS, emotionally handicapped people{that is referring to you dear}, are not stupid and helpless because they are EVIL, it is not their fault {meaning its not ur fault dear} that u cant think of anything other than ur own silly little self, and it would be rude of an old person like me to kick the ass of a retarted little 7 year old like you dear.{that is YOU galactic storm, DEAR, now do u understand}


You're really quite mad arent you

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
No acknowledgement yet again. But such poor sportmanship ive come to expect from you these days anyway.


ur sarcastic laughter grows cold and frigid. almost as if it was dying.{and to think u had enough guts to call me SON once}

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You're really quite mad arent you

Originally posted by leonheartmm
let me spell it our for u GS, emotionally handicapped people{that is referring to you dear}, are not stupid and helpless because they are EVIL, it is not their fault {meaning its not ur fault dear} that u cant think of anything other than ur own silly little self, and it would be rude of an old person like me to kick the ass of a retarted little 7 year old like you dear.{that is YOU galactic storm, DEAR, now do u understand}

ooohhh right, atleast we cleared that up..... your doing a good job of not insulting him by the way.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You're really quite mad arent you


that is coming from a man who has a picture of a HOE on fire in his dp.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
that is coming from a man who has a picture of a HOE on fire in his dp.

raving mad

Originally posted by leonheartmm
that is coming from a man who has a picture of a HOE on fire in his dp.

Really good Job !!!!!!!




















Oh not insulting him

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
raving mad



was that an admission jk

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
was that an admission jk



come on Whirly you know you love me really

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
come on Whirly you know you love me really

you amuse me GS thats true

I like most people including you and Leon.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
you amuse me GS thats true

I like most people including you and Leon.

Dont try and hide it. Its pure love

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Dont try and hide it. Its pure love

GS your sexuality is your affair the person I care deeply about is about to make me a cup of tea whilst we watch sneakers on ITV

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
GS your sexuality is your affair the person I care deeply about is about to make me a cup of tea whilst we watch sneakers on ITV

Menage a trois?

What would the Lucifer and Michael do against The Ultimate Nullifier

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Menage a trois?

sorry mate I am strictly hetero

here is 2 sites that show the whhttp://www.knightmare6.com/faq/cosmic_entities_dc/ole DCU being created or talked about.
http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/docs/pre20thcentury.html
here is the Swamp Thing site showing the creation of The Great Evil Beast, keep in mind The Beast is NOT Lucifer Morningstar or The First of the Fallen
http://rhandley.0catch.com/swampthing/Chrono-01.htm

this is how it should be in the DC/Marvel.

The Presence/The Great Beast
Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael/The Word/The Source
The Spectre/The Living Tribunal/The Phoenix Force

Originally posted by golem370
What would the Lucifer and Michael do against The Ultimate Nullifier

the max the ultimate nullifier has done is destroy abraxas, abraxas is nuthing compared to lucifer.

Just like Lucifer is nothing compared to LT. My opinion

Originally posted by golem370
Just like Lucifer is nothing compared to LT. My opinion

actually, lucifer is fargreater than LT, greater even than THOTU or true beyonders or infinite being, in marvel he is definately second only to TOAA.

Prove it

How about Ghost Riders Stare against Lucifer just a thought.

Originally posted by golem370
Prove it

man i really didnt wanna write all that but if u want it, here goes, THOTU =power of one whole multiverse, it has been able to destroy than recreat from the ashes, an entire multiverse, lucifer on the other hand is beyond the multiverse, he has at any given time 50%the power to create a multiverse, meaning that with the other 50% {micheal} he can creat an entire multiverse without even breaking a sweat, but thas just without breakin a sweat, if lucifer dies, the demiurgic explosion will result in the creation of a whole new multiverse{without there being any micheal involved} that puts his power easily above that of THOTU which at best, usin all its power can RECREATE one multiverse, also lucifer is beyond death, so death has no power over him, none of the endless do, lucifer is also responsible for the creation of the endless through god, but thas not all, lucifer has created atleast 3 different multiverses until now{one of which he is a ruler of currently} and the last one he supposedly created without micheal or without killing himself, he has also ruled hell, he also has a mind of unimaginable intellect and wit, even without his powers, he has tricked and destroyed god's plans many times, so now do u see why lucifer is second only to TOAA.

oh n yea, when micheal died,. the resulting demiurgic explosion was powerful enough to destroy the entire multiverse, lucifer stood at the heart of this explosion with micheal in his hands, and didnt even get a tan{just like the destruction of the multiverse by THOTU by thanos, only in that even the living tribunal died}

Originally posted by kevdude
here is 2 sites that show the whhttp://www.knightmare6.com/faq/cosmic_entities_dc/ole DCU being created or talked about.
http://www.mykey3000.com/cosmicteams/docs/pre20thcentury.html
here is the Swamp Thing site showing the creation of The Great Evil Beast, keep in mind The Beast is NOT Lucifer Morningstar or The First of the Fallen
http://rhandley.0catch.com/swampthing/Chrono-01.htm

this is how it should be in the DC/Marvel.

The Presence/The Great Beast
Lucifer Morningstar/Archangel Michael/The Word/The Source
The Spectre/The Living Tribunal/The Phoenix Force

Moore made it clear the primordial shadow had nothing to do with any Christian religion, he said it was the basic idea of light and darkness, quite a good pair of sites but essetially floored. As it said here that the primordial Darkness is barred from the universe this is not wuite rightif you read the issues. When he swallows swampy inside him he and the light join. Neither have anything to do with Christianity. The Gods you speak of are all probably lower than theser concepts. But its supposition and you have to have been around in the eighties to realise this.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
oh n yea, when micheal died,. the resulting demiurgic explosion was powerful enough to destroy the entire multiverse, lucifer stood at the heart of this explosion with micheal in his hands, and didnt even get a tan{just like the destruction of the multiverse by THOTU by thanos, only in that even the living tribunal died}

Ok who exactly killed Michael, if he beyond the realm of death and is so powerful ???????

Originally posted by yahman
Ok who exactly killed Michael, if he beyond the realm of death and is so powerful ???????


it was an entire host of angels and demons who had taken advantage of micheal, and wounded him, altough they couldnt kil him, to heal his brother's wounds, lucifer KILLED him, knowing that when he was reborn, he would be healed and at full power again,

Originally posted by leonheartmm
man i really didnt wanna write all that but if u want it, here goes, THOTU =power of one whole multiverse, it has been able to destroy than recreat from the ashes, an entire multiverse, lucifer on the other hand is beyond the multiverse, he has at any given time 50%the power to create a multiverse, meaning that with the other 50% {micheal} he can creat an entire multiverse without even breaking a sweat, but thas just without breakin a sweat, if lucifer dies, the demiurgic explosion will result in the creation of a whole new multiverse{without there being any micheal involved} that puts his power easily above that of THOTU which at best, usin all its power can RECREATE one multiverse, also lucifer is beyond death, so death has no power over him, none of the endless do, lucifer is also responsible for the creation of the endless through god, but thas not all, lucifer has created atleast 3 different multiverses until now{one of which he is a ruler of currently} and the last one he supposedly created without micheal or without killing himself, he has also ruled hell, he also has a mind of unimaginable intellect and wit, even without his powers, he has tricked and destroyed god's plans many times, so now do u see why lucifer is second only to TOAA.

THOTU didnt destroy a multiverse, wielded by Thanos it destroyed the 616 reality as shown in issue 6 of The End. The full extent of its power was not revealed all we know is that it is more powerful than the IG and Thanos called it the power of the supreme one.

Lucifer at any given time has as his god given power the will of God. He cannot make a universe on his own. Michael as his god given power wields the creation power of God he to cannot make a universe. The formation of a universe is a joint effort between them. Michael provides the matter and Lucifer shapes it into planets, stars, galaxies etc.

As such if Lucifer dies there would not be a demiurgic explosion to destroy the universe because that is not the power he contains.

Another thing i need to point out is that Lucifer created his own universe with Michael, not a multiverse as stated quite clearly on page 4 of Lucifer #16. He has never created a multiverse ever. Check out the issue. Death holds no power over him when he's in his universe or Presences however when he's in the realms of other gods and lords of alternate hells then he is very susceptible to death. One need only look at Lucifer issues 5 to 8 when he was in the house of windowless rooms. Lucifer was rendered both mortal and powerless.

Other than that yeah i agree with you as an entity if Lucifer came into Marvel he would be right up there in the hierarchy on the same level as the likes of LT and the White Crown Phoenix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
THOTU
Another thing i need to point out is that Lucifer created his own universe with Michael, not a multiverse as stated quite clearly on page 4 of Lucifer #16. He has never created a multiverse ever. Check out the issue. Death holds no power over him when he's in his universe or Presences however when he's in the realms of other gods and lords of alternate hells then he is very susceptible to death. One need only look at Lucifer issues 5 to 8 when he was in the house of windowless rooms. Lucifer was rendered both mortal and powerless.



but ass stated in DC comics index (POWERS AND WEAPONS Lucifer is omnipotent, he can create his own universes on a whim, create life and create entire concepts like 'Time' from scratch.His power is incalculable. He stood on ground zero of the demiurgic explosion, the explosion that could wipe out a multiverse, and didn't even get a tan.
The only thing he cannot do is create his own multiverse alone, he needs his brother Michael to do that.
Only his brother Michael is his equal in power, and only God is superior to both of them.
But the power Lucifer likes to use most is his brain, his devious bastardness allow him to defeat gods even when he is mortal and powerless.) so passed on ur infore wat is said about lucifers powers is a lie. = http://www.dcuguide.com/Index_Home.php

Originally posted by supremthor
but ass stated in DC comics index (POWERS AND WEAPONS Lucifer is omnipotent, he can create his own universes on a whim, create life and create entire concepts like 'Time' from scratch.His power is incalculable. He stood on ground zero of the demiurgic explosion, the explosion that could wipe out a multiverse, and didn't even get a tan.
The only thing he cannot do is create his own multiverse alone, he needs his brother Michael to do that.
Only his brother Michael is his equal in power, and only God is superior to both of them.
But the power Lucifer likes to use most is his brain, his devious bastardness allow him to defeat gods even when he is mortal and powerless.) so passed on ur infore wat is said about lucifers powers is a lie. = http://www.dcuguide.com/Index_Home.php

That is an unofficial source. Anyone who actually reads Lucifer can see that when Lucifer created his own universe he did so with the aid of Michael as shown quite clearly in the aforementioned issue. Unofficial source versus the comic just doesnt cut it. I dont doubt his power as ive made quite clear in my last post. However going by the comic Lucifer requires the demiurgic powers of Michael to create universes. It was a universe he created with Michael not a multiverse.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
THOTU didnt destroy a multiverse, wielded by Thanos it destroyed the 616 reality as shown in issue 6 of The End. The full extent of its power was not revealed all we know is that it is more powerful than the IG and Thanos called it the power of the supreme one.

Lucifer at any given time has as his god given power the will of God. He cannot make a universe on his own. Michael as his god given power wields the creation power of God he to cannot make a universe. The formation of a universe is a joint effort between them. Michael provides the matter and Lucifer shapes it into planets, stars, galaxies etc.

As such if Lucifer dies there would not be a demiurgic explosion to destroy the universe because that is not the power he contains.

Another thing i need to point out is that Lucifer created his own universe with Michael, not a multiverse as stated quite clearly on page 4 of Lucifer #16. He has never created a multiverse ever. Check out the issue. Death holds no power over him when he's in his universe or Presences however when he's in the realms of other gods and lords of alternate hells then he is very susceptible to death. One need only look at Lucifer issues 5 to 8 when he was in the house of windowless rooms. Lucifer was rendered both mortal and powerless.

Other than that yeah i agree with you as an entity if Lucifer came into Marvel he would be right up there in the hierarchy on the same level as the likes of LT and the White Crown Phoenix.



THOTU destroyed than recreated the entire multiverse, includin the tribunal.
it destroyed tribunal and hence was more powerful than the living tribunal.
lucifer's power is NOT GOD GIVEN OR CONTROLLED BY GOD'S WILL, thas the definition for spectar's power, lucifer is far more powerful, having more than 50% the power of god, same goes for micheal, theyr are god's SONS not SERVANTS.

THEY CAN CREATE A MULTIVERSE EASILY WITHOUT EXHAUSTING THEIR POWERS AND "WITHOUT" GOD'S WILL, go read up on some lucifer, hellblazer or sandman comics.

if lucifer were to die, there would be a demiurgic explosion just like in the case of micheals death but there would have to be sum1 atleast equal in power to lucifer to KILL him and make sure that he goes through death other wise, the endless DEATH has no domain over lucifer. not in any realm, and the only reason he was succeptible to it in the room was because he had cut his wings and given up his inheretn power than because he was bored of it.


AND IT WAS MOST CERTAINLY a multiverse, lucifer can creat universes atthe whim of a thought and multiverseS easily with micheals help , he can choose to do so on his own by killing himself and creating a multiverse, also, the multiverse created after the demiurgic explosion was also purely lucifer's worlk without micheal being involved or him dying.

and yea one last thing, THE PHEONIX FORCE WOULD BE LESS SIGNIFICANT TO LUCIFER THAN THE ANTS HIS SHOES CRUSH ON THE OUTSIDE OF HIS CLUB.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That is an unofficial source. Anyone who actually reads Lucifer can see that when Lucifer created his own universe he did so with the aid of Michael as shown quite clearly in the aforementioned issue. Unofficial source versus the comic just doesnt cut it. I dont doubt his power as ive made quite clear in my last post. However going by the comic Lucifer requires the demiurgic powers of Michael to create universes. It was a universe he created with Michael not a multiverse.

it was a MULTIVERSE , n im not takin this from any unofficial sources, this is straight from vertigo comics.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
THOTU destroyed than recreated the entire multiverse, includin the tribunal.
it destroyed tribunal and hence was more powerful than the living tribunal.
lucifer's power is NOT GOD GIVEN OR CONTROLLED BY GOD'S WILL, thas the definition for spectar's power, lucifer is far more powerful, having more than 50% the power of god, same goes for micheal, theyr are god's SONS not SERVANTS.

THEY CAN CREATE A MULTIVERSE EASILY WITHOUT EXHAUSTING THEIR POWERS AND "WITHOUT" GOD'S WILL, go read up on some lucifer, hellblazer or sandman comics.

if lucifer were to die, there would be a demiurgic explosion just like in the case of micheals death but there would have to be sum1 atleast equal in power to lucifer to KILL him and make sure that he goes through death other wise, the endless DEATH has no domain over lucifer. not in any realm, and the only reason he was succeptible to it in the room was because he had cut his wings and given up his inheretn power than because he was bored of it.


AND IT WAS MOST CERTAINLY a multiverse, lucifer can creat universes atthe whim of a thought and multiverseS easily with micheals help , he can choose to do so on his own by killing himself and creating a multiverse, also, the multiverse created after the demiurgic explosion was also purely lucifer's worlk without micheal being involved or him dying.

and yea one last thing, THE PHEONIX FORCE WOULD BE LESS SIGNIFICANT TO LUCIFER THAN THE ANTS HIS SHOES CRUSH ON THE OUTSIDE OF HIS CLUB.

Im not disputing with H.O.T.U's power. Its obvious thats its beyond LT. As a fan of Lucifer i have all of the issues up to the current one. Lucifer and Michael are gods creations. Yahweh makes it quite clear on page 1 of issue 39 that Michael was given the demiurgic powers while Lucifer was given gods will. Not only that but its common knowledge to all on here so that is not in debate. In the same issue it is made quite apparent that the brothers were made for a purpose to serve Gods will and they find out to the disgust of Lucifer that despite his betrayal he was still following the Great Plan.

Why you felt the need to tell me that they can create a multiverse without Gods permission is beyond me. I never said once that god controls their every actions. You've misinterpreted. Not my problem.

If Lucifer was killed there would not be a demiurgic explosion because that is not the powers that were bestowed upon him by Yahweh. There is a reason why a joint effort from the brothers is required to create universes. Michael is the source of the demiurgic energies. He provides the matter, whilst Lucifer with his will shapes the matter into stars, galaxies etc.

It was most definitely a universe he created for the Presence as stated not only in the aforementioned issues but also in 26. Your views and opinions versus whats stated in the comic are insufficient im afraid.

The Phoenix Force isnt an entity thats what you need to get out of your head Leon. As shown in New Xmen iand cemented into current continuity by Endsong, it is just a power source, the power of the Crown. Lucifer most certainly isnt beyond that im sorry to say. A comparison to The White Crown Phoenix however is where he comes off more favourably. They would be peers as i and others have conveyed on this thread.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
it was a MULTIVERSE , n im not takin this from any unofficial sources, this is straight from vertigo comics.

Ok i tire of this Leon. Give me an hour or so im just logging off for a bit then i'll post the appropriate scans. It was indeed a universe he created and its a universe he needed help with making. I await your reply. Cya in an hour