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Wait! Before you say anything let me speak first...this has not been done before! Believe me I searched through all 39(or was it 38?) pages of this forum and did not find a single thread saying Mace Windu vs Revan. If I am wrong...well than...oh well.

Combatants: Revan DS, Post-KOTOR II. Mace Windu as of ROTS.

Setting: Valley of The Dark Lords on Korriban.

Weather: Typical Korriban weather being hot and dry.

Third Person Parties: None. No vicious beasts or other Sith just Mace and Revan.

Side Note: Just for debating sakes lets assume that Revan is using one red saber and a mix of Type 2 and Type 3 lightsaber styles.

My theory! Hold on. . .

"I personally have to give Mace a better chance against Revan than anyone featured in the movies. Not because he is superior to them, but because of his fighting style. Now, while obviously an extremely skilled duelist on his own, it's Revan's remarkable precognition that allows him nigh invincibility against most. Now, people who disagree with this are either going to have to choose from two options concerning the Dark Lord:

1) The theory is correct; Revan's pre-cog is one of the major factors in his dueling skill, not Force abilities, but the ability to win a duel.

2) The precognition really isn't all that great, and so does not help very much in a duel.

Now, the reason that Revan's precognition is important in this argument is because of its characteristics. "Tactical Prediction", right? If so, Mace has an excellent chance of staving him off for a time because of Vaapad, the form that completely defies prediction. It is unpredictability in raw form, wielded by arguably the most talented swordsman the Jedi Order has had in its ranks.

If option two is chosen, then Revan's precognition is not as effective as many of you seem to claim.

I'd personally go for #1, since of course, it is my theory.

Now, nobody misunderstand me here. I am in no way saying that Mace would defeat Revan in a duel. But he would give Revan some trouble, seeing as how his unpredictability in Vaapad nearly nullifies Revan's precog advantage.

And it helps to have three mastered forms (Ataru, Djem So, Juyo/Vaapad) to call upon in a duel."

No, the battle precog is not listed as tactical prediction. That's some brain bug that grew out of the Handmaiden's totally bogus statement about Echani elders being able to predict wars (Which makes no sense because neither Yusanis nor Atris ever demonstrated that ability). Really, it's just jedi attunement on crack. To delve a bit into how it works in-game, it should be noted that it gives a defense bonus from your wisdom modifier. This is stacked with the already present jedi defense feat. And as a side item, it's a light side power, even though it's passive. Don't ask em why on that one.

But the implied effect of the Exile's battle precognition is being able to read moves well in advance of the actual moves. Revan is quoted as having it (And the Handmaiden noted it like it was a rarity, so obviously the Echani consider this battle precognition to be higher than the well-known jedi reflexes, and also she notes that they were the two exceptions of which she knew outside of the Echani people.)

Another musing, why would any one jedi earn such an ability on his own? I'm wondering if it isn't something either learned by working with the Echani, or perhaps I'm delving too much into it... Either way, Revan's battle precognition DOES aid him in melee combat. But it does not apparently aid him in tactics.

I can't decided who would win...although I am leaning towards Revan.

Tactical prediction isn't all that useful if both combatants can use the Force. Seeing as both fighters have the capability, they cancel out. Skill matters most in this area.

Tactical prediction is more for evading the clumsy blows of non-Jedi combatants or hitting just right, or deflecting blasters.

Uh, Rex? Read what I wrote. It's -not- tactical prediction. It's simply not.

Then replace it with whatever term EU has come up with for it.

Well...

That is really hard to decide. In terms of force powers I guess Revan maybe has an advantage here but I guess it won't be enough to kill Mace with that so it comes down to lightsaber combat.

In sheer lightsaber combat I think Mace has a little advantage. We don't know what form Revan used - most likely Juyo or something that Tulak Hord developed (but he won't be as good as Hord himself). If it's Juyo than Mace would have an advantage here with his Vaapad (and Juyo mastery) - if it's something that Hord developed I would rate it equal to Vaapad. At least I'd give Mace a slight advantage because he mastered some forms and is a natural talent in swordfighting.

Now it comes down to special abilities or the question what ability would do better in melee combat. Revans battle pre-cog is nice since he might be able to predict Mace's movements (but I don't give that thing a 100 % accuracy). Shatterpoint on Mace's side is also nice since he can spot and exploit weakpoints of his opponents - and even Revan had some of them.

For a decission...well...I can't decide. If Revan doesn't pull something off to kill Mace with force powers I think Mace might be able to defeat Revan in a lightsaber fight but it will take a long time and still can result in Mace getting defeated. Well...I'd say 51/49 % in Revans favor.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...

That is really hard to decide. In terms of force powers I guess Revan maybe has an advantage here but I guess it won't be enough to kill Mace with that so it comes down to lightsaber combat.

In sheer lightsaber combat I think Mace has a little advantage. We don't know what form Revan used - most likely Juyo or something that Tulak Hord developed (but he won't be as good as Hord himself). If it's Juyo than Mace would have an advantage here with his Vaapad (and Juyo mastery) - if it's something that Hord developed I would rate it equal to Vaapad. At least I'd give Mace a slight advantage because he mastered some forms and is a natural talent in swordfighting.

Now it comes down to special abilities or the question what ability would do better in melee combat. Revans battle pre-cog is nice since he might be able to predict Mace's movements (but I don't give that thing a 100 % accuracy). Shatterpoint on Mace's side is also nice since he can spot and exploit weakpoints of his opponents - and even Revan had some of them.

For a decission...well...I can't decide. If Revan doesn't pull something off to kill Mace with force powers I think Mace might be able to defeat Revan in a lightsaber fight but it will take a long time and still can result in Mace getting defeated. Well...I'd say 51/49 % in Revans favor.

I gotta go with Nai.

Wow, now Mace is good competition for Revan!? I never thought it was possible. Sweet!

I must be a sucky thread maker...more than half of my threads get hardly any replies.

Now people I know most of you think Revan can't be judged right and has to be judged on all we know of him. But seriously, Mace is a great fighter no doubt about it. I'm sure if he would have lived in another time he would have owned pretty much everybody (if he wouldn't have fallen to the Dark Side)

But Mace does not have the experience he needs against lightsaber wielders, I also doubt Revan uses Juyo, it doesn't suit him if you ask me. Based on nothing but what we know of his personality I would have to say he's probably a Soruso/Makashi user. That he combined the two styles.

He is said to be a better duelist then Malak who is described as the best dueller of the order at the time (Except for Revan of course) Now they had some good duellers in that time, and a lot of Jedi that actually knew how to fight, so being the best means more then in the time of ROTS (not that something like that makes Mace weaker, it doesn't but i'm just saying.)

Now I personally think Revan has the edge here, they both have special powers that help them fight but Revan has the experience and can not seriously be called a bad duellist. He probably has the edge on force powers, based on his control over the Star Forge. We know he controlled a powerful form of Lightning more powerful then what Dooku has shown.(Said so by the Rakatan) So his control over the force can not be bad. And this is a power he used against weak foes, he's probably going to have some extra shit up his sleeve in case he fights more powerful beings. Of course thats just a guess, but personally I think there is enough evidence to show he could beat Mace.

Especially Post Kotor II Revan, who if he is still alive probably only got more powerful since Kotor I. And this is in the valley of the Dark Lords a place Revan knows and a place filled with the Dark Side. All in all I see Mace putting up a good fight, but I don't think he has a chance of winning.

Where is it said that Revan was the best duelist of the time?

Originally posted by Rand al'Thor
Where is it said that Revan was the best duelist of the time?

In kotor, i'll get you the quotes soon enough i'm playing the game again.

IMO, We dont know enough about revan do decide, really. We know plenty about mace and how he uses a lightsaber. I just dont think he could beat revan unless he really fights tough and pulls some shit out of his sleeve as well.

Hello and yes just for the reference Dragon 89 and Rand al'Thor are one and the same. I finally remembered my old password! But would you no it? They claim that I made this account in June!

Not sure how they could be wrong. The system does the dating. So unless your ISP pulled something clever or you messed with the time zone and totally pwned the computer, it should be accurate.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Not sure how they could be wrong. The system does the dating. So unless your ISP pulled something clever or you messed with the time zone and totally pwned the computer, it should be accurate.

Then why does it say June? My Rand al'Thor acount is older than June yet I know that Dragon 89 is older than my Rand al'Thor account.

Maybe it's activated by your first post. Double check.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Maybe it's activated by your first post. Double check.

Nope can't be I checked it myself...I think it is an error in the system or somthing.

Your first post on this account was in June. BTW, if you still have the Rand account active, I'd pick one or the other. Socking will get one of them deleted, so you might as well pick the one you want to stay.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Your first post on this account was in June. BTW, if you still have the Rand account active, I'd pick one or the other. Socking will get one of them deleted, so you might as well pick the one you want to stay.

Raz already knows I told him myself and I wanted to use the Dragon 89 acount since that one was made earlier despite the fact it says June.

Ha... the only person who regularly visits this place who is registered older then me is Snake Eyes now...

*Plots*

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Ha... the only person who regularly visits this place who is registered older then me is Snake Eyes now...

*Plots*

Its an injustice! How dare they claim that I came to these forums in June when it was January!

Admit it. Pwned.

*Ascends to the Elder's Chair. It now becomes the Era of Lord Janus the Despot. SW KMC members suffer under his oppressive and pic-filled regime.*

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Admit it. Pwned.

*Ascends to the Elder's Chair. It now becomes the Era of Lord Janus the Despot. SW KMC members suffer under his oppressive and pic-filled regime.*

Fool! My rebellious forces will decimate you!

*calls to his men* Destory the unsuper!

*Twelve confused escaped mental patients reply to his call. The combined Forces of the KMC Empire smite them.*

ARG! I can't post links because I am still a Junior member! ARGGGGG!!!!!!!!!

aimostudio(insert .com here)

This woman does great work, but why can't she draw a male Revan?

Like this guy? I seriously hope they make a canon version of Revan that looks like this.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Admit it. Pwned.

*Ascends to the Elder's Chair. It now becomes the Era of Lord Janus the Despot. SW KMC members suffer under his oppressive and pic-filled regime.*

Grrrr. I wanted that throne. How about the person with the most forums visted regulary?

Uh... you mean the Traveling KMC Jester title?

lol..

And Rand, you gots pwned... junior member! lol

Revan owns this he takes out mace with a hard long battle but he still wins i still think that mace has a really good chance but he may not win

Originally posted by Dragon 89
Fool! My rebellious forces will decimate you!


Hmm...

My new Jawa of Mass Destruction needed some training anyway...
Here he is...

*Sits in Grandmaster chair and sends his Elite Team of Super Sith Ninja skillz Jawas after Nai Fohl's ugly mutated piece of turd....*



Stop!



Coffee time!

Jawa Civil War!

The Sith Jawa Empire is in turmoil! The Supreme Jawa Chancellor Janus is being held by the insidious Jawa Grandmaster Sorgo, and it's up to Jawa l33ts Nai Fohl and Darth Faunus to rescue him from the Jawa battleship, "Invisible Hand"...

Originally posted by Sorgo
*Sits in Grandmaster chair and sends his Elite Team of Super Sith Ninja skillz Jawas after Nai Fohl's ugly mutated piece of turd....*



Stop!



Coffee time!

haha...

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Jawa Civil War!

The Sith Jawa Empire is in turmoil! The Supreme Jawa Chancellor Janus is being held by the insidious Jawa Grandmaster Sorgo, and it's up to Jawa l33ts Nai Fohl and Darth Faunus to rescue him from the Jawa battleship, "Invisible Hand"...


I ain't holding shit! You're free to go!

Originally posted by Lord Janus
The Sith Jawa Empire is in turmoil! The Supreme Jawa Chancellor Janus is being held by the insidious Jawa Grandmaster Sorgo, and it's up to Jawa l33ts Nai Fohl and Darth Faunus to rescue him from the Jawa battleship, "Invisible Hand"...

rofl...
Well. I have Melkor charged up with Jawa powers against Sorgos SSNJ...

hmm...

I think this will get ugly...

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
rofl...
Well. I have Melkor charged up with Jawa powers against Sorgos SSNJ...

hmm...

I think this will get ugly...


I have done nothing and have held no one captive. Refrain your troops from attack or there will be consequences.

Originally posted by Sorgo
I have done nothing and have held no one captive. Refrain your troops from attack or there will be consequences.

Hmm ? Nobody is attacking somebody else here...

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Hmm...

My new Jawa of Mass Destruction needed some training anyway...
Here he is...

Who is that? Melkor?

La ala alalalalalalalal!

Originally posted by Dragon 89
Who is that? Melkor?

Yes. With Jawa eyes...

*Wants the Sith jawas to fight amongst themselves and become strong in accordance with the Sith ways*

Um...

Survivor gets a title in the Artoo priesthood!

And lots of pr0n too!

hey Janus, actually I was on here starting at oct in 02, but computer messed up and for some reason I no longer had an account so this one was made

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
hey Janus, actually I was on here starting at oct in 02, but computer messed up and for some reason I no longer had an account so this one was made

See! I am not the only one who has been cheated from there rightful place!

exactly, I wonder if this has happened to others as well?

also do you think Raz would restore the old time we signed up if we asked?

Wow, what has happened to Revan's power?

Uh, no. I struck a deal with the Dark Lord of KMC. Ha... now no one is an elder member besides me... -and Snake Eyes, but I'll get him- yes... ha ha!

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Wow, what has happened to Revan's power?

Reality stole it...

No not really IMO Revan is a very powerful Sith Lord. But one must consider ever varuable when discussing a vs thread with a character who's very gender is not known.

Yeah. I mean, I like Revan, and I think he's more powerful than any one of us can logically prove perhaps, but like I said... we can't support him well in arguments, and it's proof that takes the win, not opinion.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Uh, no. I struck a deal with the Dark Lord of KMC. Ha... now no one is an elder member besides me... -and Snake Eyes, but I'll get him- yes... ha ha!

I'll get you back for this Janus, you and your little dog too

but even with this new member that I have to go as I am still just a day or two behind you in seniority *the great battle for the elder chair begins*

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
I'll get you back for this Janus, you and your little dog too

but even with this new member that I have to go as I am still just a day or two behind you in seniority *the great battle for the elder chair begins*

Arg! It should say January on my profile! I demand justice! Someone unsrup this pathetic Jawa from my throne!

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Yeah. I mean, I like Revan, and I think he's more powerful than any one of us can logically prove perhaps, but like I said... we can't support him well in arguments, and it's proof that takes the win, not opinion.

What about analytical arguments? (Attempting to get some use out of my debate class)

*Maniacal laughter*

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What about analytical arguments? (Attempting to get some use out of my debate class)

You say that like it's a different thing from what we've been doing.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
What about analytical arguments? (Attempting to get some use out of my debate class)

eer Um that is what we have been doing...

I was just kidding, sorry, I should have made it more clear it was sarcasm.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I was just kidding, sorry, I should have made it more clear it was sarcasm.

Oh...ok

lol... Ass. Had me going there.

AH HA! I am Veneficus The Warlock Lord!

*blasts KMC with his powerful dark magics*

Look at this! A great thread being totaly ignored!

Revan would win, he is one of the most powerful sith lords of all time. It may take a bit though

Originally posted by Darth Nhilus
Revan would win, he is one of the most powerful sith lords of all time. It may take a bit though

Mace would win he's one of the great Jedi Masters of all time.

See I can do it too.

Originally posted by Darth Nhilus
Revan would win, he is one of the most powerful sith lords of all time. It may take a bit though

Any reasons for this opinon of yours?

Sure, but I list the following above him:

Ragnos
Simus
Sadow
Kressh
Nadd
Tulak (most likely)
Kun
Ulic
Nihilus (with eating)

So he's likely #9 or 10. Keep in mind we don't know that many Sith Lords. Is he in the upper echelon? Yes. But does he have the power to "instaown" Mace Windu? Hardly. You're going to need to back up that opinion of yours.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Sure, but I list the following above him:

Ragnos
Simus
Sadow
Kressh
Nadd
Tulak (most likely)
Kun
Ulic
Nihilus (with eating)

So he's likely #9 or 10. Keep in mind we don't know that many Sith Lords. Is he in the upper echelon? Yes. But does he have the power to "instaown" Mace Windu? Hardly. You're going to need to back up that opinion of yours.

How did Ulic get in there?

out of all of the sith
1. Tulak Hord.
2. Ajunta Pall.
3. Naga Sadow.
4. Marka Ragnos.
5. Freedon Nadd.
6. Darth Nihilus.
7. Darth Sion.
8. Ludo Kressh.
9. Darth Revan.
10. Darth Traya.
11. Exar Kun.
12. Simus.
13. The Jedi exile (if he ever became a sith).
14. Darth Vader.
15. Darth Plaeigus.
16. Darth Bane.
17. Ulic Quel-droma.
18. Lord Kaan.
19. Darth Sidious.
20. Darth tyranus.

Wow, you think Revan would lose to Ulic? I knew Ulic was good, but that is very impressive.

And what about Ajunta Pall? He could probably take Revan.

Originally posted by birthoftheforce
out of all of the sith
1. Tulak Hord.
2. Ajunta Pall.
3. Naga Sadow.
4. Marka Ragnos.
5. Freedon Nadd.
6. Darth Nihilus.
7. Darth Sion.
8. Ludo Kressh.
10. Darth Revan.
11. Darth Traya.
12. Exar Kun.
13. Simus.
14. Darth Vader.
15. Darth Plaeigus.

WTF is this?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Wow, you think Revan would lose to Ulic? I knew Ulic was good, but that is very impressive.

And what about Ajunta Pall? He could probably take Revan.

I believe Kun would defeat Revan, but Ulic? No. What is next Sids? Obi-Wan? Dooku? Anakin? Vader? Luke?
This has gotten ridiculous.

Originally posted by birthoftheforce
out of all of the sith
1. Tulak Hord.
2. Ajunta Pall.
3. Naga Sadow.
4. Marka Ragnos.
5. Freedon Nadd.
6. Darth Nihilus.
7. Darth Sion.
8. Ludo Kressh.
10. Darth Revan.
11. Darth Traya.
12. Exar Kun.
13. Simus.
14. Darth Vader.
15. Darth Plaeigus.

Ulic was a singularly prodigious talent who became remarkably powerful. He gets a very bad reputation around here. Hell, Nadd even mentioned Ulic would be great. There weren't too many Ancient Sith that said that about Revan.

Originally posted by Veneficus
I believe Kun would defeat Revan, but Ulic? No. What is next Sids? Obi-Wan? Dooku? Anakin? Vader? Luke?
This has gotten ridiculous.

Ulic is superior to those individuals. Would he blow Revan out of the water? Certainly not, but he has as good a chance of beating him as Revan of beating Ulic. I don't know where the hell people get the idea that he's of a lesser tier.

i agree but it is probably because he got the force contained within him removed by a jedi (nomi sunrider) and eventually got killed by like a mercenary i think.

Even without full use of the Force, Ulic was still capable enough to teach his relative of the Force, construct a lightsaber, and kill a Force user in combat.

In short, he ****ing pwns.

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Even without full use of the Force, Ulic was still capable enough to teach his relative of the Force, construct a lightsaber, and kill a Force user in combat.

In short, he ****ing pwns.

I never understood why Ulic never regained the use of the Force. As I understand Nomi sheilded him from it yet didn't sever it permantly.

Probably guilt.

If you had a gun in the house that you had used to kill your brother in a moment of rage, would you willingly pick it up again?

Originally posted by Lord Janus
Probably guilt.

If you had a gun in the house that you had used to kill your brother in a moment of rage, would you willingly pick it up again?

Good point.

I have a few.

I bought some off Ebay.

I knew I misplaced some.

*insert random crap here*

Originally posted by Veneficus
I believe Kun would defeat Revan, but Ulic? No. What is next Sids? Obi-Wan? Dooku? Anakin? Vader? Luke?
This has gotten ridiculous.

Ignore this idiocy I was having a bad moment and did not think...

...

Originally posted by Rand al'Thor
Wait! Before you say anything let me speak first...this has not been done before! Believe me I searched through all 39(or was it 38?) pages of this forum and did not find a single thread saying Mace Windu vs Revan. If I am wrong...well than...oh well.

Combatants: Revan DS, Post-KOTOR II. Mace Windu as of ROTS.

Setting: Valley of The Dark Lords on Korriban.

Weather: Typical Korriban weather being hot and dry.

Third Person Parties: None. No vicious beasts or other Sith just Mace and Revan.

Side Note: Just for debating sakes lets assume that Revan is using one red saber and a mix of Type 2 and Type 3 lightsaber styles.

I find it hard to believe Revan can win here. Considering this is a DS Revan, and that they are fighting on Korriban, Mace would be able to dip into Revan's DS Nexus-enhanced pool of darkness, amping an already superior combatant, and then we have pwnage of Revan.

I'll go with Mace, here.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I find it hard to believe Revan can win here. Considering this is a DS Revan, and that they are fighting on Korriban, Mace would be able to dip into Revan's DS Nexus-enhanced pool of darkness, amping an already superior combatant, and then we have pwnage of Revan.
spot on

Revan is overrated. Windu takes this.