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I am aware acouse that some relions think they are the same while others don't!Which makes it very confusing to me.
So what do you think and what are your thoughts on this?Remember there is no right or wrong answear!JM

...no, they're not

I think there is a right answer as it clearly states in the bible that Jesus is the son of God. Also, what makes you say God is a person?

I don't think god or jesus for that matter is a person I just wanted it to be easy for you guys to understand what I am asking.
I think he is a spirt of some kind.But then again he was a person and then he dead came back and is in heaven so now he is a spirt but before I am pretty sure he was a person!I could be wrong however.JM

Tyler Durden! Tyler Durden!

According to the Bible, it's pretty clear that Christ and God were distinct entities. But that would mean that Christianity had two gods--God and Jesus. And the early Christian leaders desperately didn't want to be viewed as a polytheistic religion, so they came up with the idea of the Trinity, which says that, okay, there's the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but they're really one and the same, right? The end result, of course, is that when you read the Bible, Jesus sometimes seems downright schizophrenic ("My God My God why hast though forsaken me?"

That is something to think about.I think he was talking to his father who is god.Man I am geting even more confuse!Anyway sorry to get off topic but Spearhead love your siggy!JM

it depends what relegion you are talking about. illtry to explain best i can in the light of my relegion.

but ok, see there is one God, ok. and this one God is made up of 3 differnt people. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Ok, and now alot of people don't understand this here part, thats why they claim thet Catholics aren't monotheistic, but though there are 3 person in God, there is still only one God, like how a clover has three leaves, yet it is still a single clover.

Ok there is a clover now and there is now a father son and holly ghost?Ok I can kind of understand that.I am talking about many different relions.
My dad is jewish and says that we only belive in jesus but we dont believe that he is god or that he dead!When according to a bible I read it says he did die for our sins.
and was actly a person before he died.Is this true?Or am I geting you confuse?Sorry!JM

I think Jewish people believe that Jesus actually lived, but was a prophet, not the Son of God, and I don't think they go by the New Testement, cause thats all about Jesus.

And some Jews hold that Jesus was an outright fraud ie not even a prophet.

Jews think Jesus was a fake, Muslims think he was a prophet, Christians believe he was the messiah

I believe Jesus to be the Son of God, Surely when he said: Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
He was not talking to himself, he was talking to God

When John the Baptist, baptized Jesus, God said spoke to him and said: Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

They are 1 spirit, but have different personalities, if that makes sense. KInda like you have a GLASS, WATER AND OIL, they are all one in but separatly they do different things. Egg: hard shell, the white and yoke.

the Koran/Qu'ran believes Jesus just as a prophet

im not sure about Judaism

What do would you say a prophet is?

er... if you don't know the answer to this, you would have get prosecuted in the middle ages

depends on you religion,
christians believe he was a son of god, means a god. so answer would be yes.

in other religions (like: judaism, islam) he is known as a prophet.

in some other (like: buddism) the whole idea of god is totally different.

It's stated by Catholic that God was Jesus and also the Son which is very hard to explain how that works. New born christians also believe the same thing

According to Jews, to what I know they only believe hime to be a prophet? am I wrong? I believe this also goes by other religions that believe in god.

Personally I have no Idea what to believe. A friend of mine believes that Jesus was just a crazy man with sensible Ideas.

The way I was told about God was that there is a holy trinity. God, the father was the creator... he rules up in heaven. Jesus, the son of God came down to save the sins of the world, died crucified and was buried and rose again... now back in heaven. The third part of the Holy Trinity is the Holy Spirit... through the Holy Spirit God does his work in the world, it was the holy spirit which caused the disciples to speak in tounges, cause miracles, etc...

The three parts are all one god, but these parts of God work differently... if that makes sense

That makes alittle sence to me.But how can god be all three people?It is like saying that he is three different kind of people.Anyway what I am trying to ask you is why do we say is who is the father and who is son and who is the holy ghost?
Anyone know?Also a Prophet is someone I think who teaches about god and is one who people think is god.I could be wrong through.I really don't have a clue!JM

Did jesus ever say that he was god??

Or was that just the misinterpretation of his 'followers'.

Good question.No I don't think he did say that he was god.And this follows did.Does anyone know what part of the bible says that jesus says he was god?
If you do please share it.For now I am not sure.JM

The most that I know he said was that he was the only son of god, but then again doesnt the bible say that we are all god's children?

The main idea is that he's a member of the trinity; three aspects of God. He is the word. The theory of why he's God revolves around the fact that he occasionally shows aspects of God, like omniscience, omnipotence, or restraint (which is not common is prophets). It is commonly accepted Christian doctrine, but there are no actual words from Jesus, where he says,"I am God" in the Bible.

I see so it is just a known thing to the christians that he is god?If it does not say in the bible then how they do this is true?JM

Organized religion makes up answeres to fill in the blanks...

actually...no.

atleast, not my church. For example, Colossians 2:9-10: "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, And you have been made full in Him, who is the Head of all rule and authority".

2:8 is refering to Christ, so we know that when it says "in Him" it is refering to Christ. 2:9 says that God is in Christ, and 2:10 says that Christ is the Head of all rule and Authority. If Christ weren't God, aka if he weren't the son of God and God at the same time, then it wouldn't say "in him dwells" and then refer to Him as the "Head of rule and authority". this is one of many passages that refer to Christ as God, and part of the Godhead.

also, the fact that there are three facets of God in the Father, Son and Spirit, in no way makes Christianity a polytheistic religion. In the beginning of John, it states "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" and "The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us". This statement is one basis for the belief in the Trinity. The Word is seperate from the Creator, and yet is the Creator. Jesus (him who became flesh and tabernacled among us) is the Word, and is God. Not polytheistic, but the entities comprising one being. The Triune God, three in one.

The early church had a lot of difficulties... the letter of Colossians was written by Paul the apostle (most likely) to the Colosians in order to push his view of who Jesus was. Jesus didnt say anything like that in the Gospels... by saying that Jesus had "in him the all the fullness of Godhead bodily," Paul was saying that Jesus had all the qualities of God in human form (despite never meeting him).

But, see the church instead of saying "Well Jesus said he was the son of God, and Paul thinks that Jesus had 'all the fullness of god in human form'" we have "It says in the Bible, Colossians 2:9 that Jesus had 'in him all the fullness of Godhead bodily', so we can take this to mean that he really was this 'godhead'"

It was something written to fill in the blanks during the early church... no one really knows if Jesus really was as he was described in Colossians, shit even the author of Colossians doesnt know. Paul/Saul, never ever even met Jesus. Paul was writing the letter to answer questions early Christians had to which there were no answers.

Or in other words "filling in blanks with made up answers."

I can understand that,Thanks!JM

John 12:45 (Jesus talking)"When he looks at me, he sees the One who sent Me."

TC> we (read: Christians) believe that the books of the Bible were divinely inspired, so when Paul or John, etc, says something, we believe it came from God. And no, we don't blindly follow whatever we are told.

ska57> thank you. very good verse.

lol u really like saying that



JM: "Does anyone know what part of the bible says that jesus says he was god?"

Jesus doesnt say that he is God. If you look in the Bible, every time he prayed to God he said 'My Father.'
As Ytaker said, Jesus is part of the Holy Trinity - or, as many Christians say, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

But if the jews believe that god is the father, then it makes sense for them to believe that they are all the children of god

Biblically speaking... Jesus is not the God. Jesus never decalred that He was Him and God never proclaimed that Jesus and He are one God.

False doctrines flow into the Church and started to believe that Christ is God. ... and these self-proclaimed Christians call themselves Catholics and still this doctrine later adapted by the Protestants.

You should get that put on a tee shirt.

In the "Our Father" prayer the line "The Father, the son, and the holy spirit," can be thought of as three entities, but there is argument for them being of one being. And if you look at it from purely a religious standpoint, in the Christian faith, an argument can be made for both.

If you really need an answer, I can research it, but frankly that would be boring. I remember that he called God "abba" which is an affectionate term for father (implying a unique relationship). For a Jew to use it would be sacrilege or something similar. There are also no recorded works where a Jew used it.

I appeal. The jury was biased by extraordinary stupidity. The idea of a trinity was good enough to be accepted. Just because man invented it, doesn't mean that it's false.

The idea of the trinity is very nonsense... how could those three different persons/entities be one God? The answer would always resort into "mystery" that no man could ever comprehend.

Duh! The Bible says that the knowledge about God is very clear... because God has made it clear so that no one could ever make an excuse like that.

God said, that a man is a man and not God. He also declared that He wouldn't allow Himself to be both God and man because He would go against His words. He wouldn't allow any man to be God also. Jesus Christ, on the other hand is a man, as proclaimed in the Bible, and never been the God. So Jesus Christ, being man, cannot be God for there is only one God, as what He declared, and that only true God is the Father... meaning Not the Son.. not the Holy Spirit.

There is a difference between a man calling himself God and God becoming man. As for the Trinity, they are not seperate in the sense of Zeus is seperate from Hera, etc., but seperate as in perform different functions. It is like you mouth, your eye and your hand. Each is you, but your eyes cannot chew and your hands cannot see. It is the same with God. Each part of the Triune God has a purpose, but they are all the same.

They are all the same in the sense that they all have one purpose.... and these purpose is for the goodness of the "flock" or of God's people....

...but they are certainly not ONE same person.

what you believe to be truthsis not the same as actual truth

John 10:29, 30 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are One."

1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,"

John 10:29, 30 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are One."

1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the Man is Christ Jesus,"

Joan Jett "I love rock`n` roll"

I love how this thread turned into a copy paste contest

I just cannot be bothered to bat theology back and forth with somebody till someone's internet connections go down for a day or two, or someone gets ill, etc, and we move on.

First verse: try to go on the preceding verse/s... you will learn why or in what way do God and Christ are one.

...you'll learn that they (God and Christ) are one in taking care of the "flock". ... not of being God.

Second verse: What's wrong with the verse.. it only emphasize that there is only one God, and this is the Father... and also there is one Mediator between God and men... and this man is Christ.

Yes, God and Jesus are one and the same. Jesus was the son of God, but at the same time was God incarnate.

John 10:30 states (Jesus speaking): "I and my father are one."

That pretty much clears it up.

cornponious

Seems a bit similar to some aspect of Hindu beliefs. They have many gods that are aspects of three major ones, Vishnu, Brahma and Shiva, who while being individuals are also part of one overall god. So many into three into one.

You guys sure know your bible.Wow!Thanks for the information it is very interesting!JM

"First verse: try to go on the preceding verse/s... you will learn why or in what way do God and Christ are one.

...you'll learn that they (God and Christ) are one in taking care of the "flock". ... not of being God."

It also says that people like you will not understand because you are not of His sheep. Jesus said He was one with God, and the second verse says that there is one God, so that proves that Jesus and God are one.

The bible also says that a man and wife shall be as one.

Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Jesus is the Son of God, if he was not, then who was he praying to and why would he pray to himself?

When Jesus was being baptized: Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,
Luke 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
Again, was he talking from above to himself while he was being baptized telling himself he was well pleased?
Who is sitting on the Right hand of God?

Fiery Eyes >

You are using circular reasoning, "Jesus is the son of God because The Bible says so and what The Bible says is true because it is the word of God."

Jesus was a crazy person who thought he was the son of god and had magical powers. Too many years spent indoors making shit out of wood.

Its clear that you are not wanting to discuss this topic so why be in this thread? The issue here is not rather or not God or Jesus exist, in this thread, it's if they do exist, are they one. Read the other post. I was asking questions and wanting to discuss the issue at hand.

Jesus was a rip off of Hercules. Who was also a son of God - Zeus.

The difference is Hercules could actually do impressive shit, he had strength and could knock buildings over. Jesus just died.

Jesus and religion in general are rip offs of lots of other religions.

No one is arguing whether or not Jesus or God exist. You are citing The Bible as proof that Jesus and God are one and the same when The Bible can only be correct if Jesus and God are one and the same.

well this thread is lets say Jesus is divine lets say he is son of god and then deal with the question in hand. Its a make believe thread.......a minature of religions so to speak

baa baa baa, im the black sheep of the lot, I dont follow him

Well, before Jesus was born there were LOTS of people who were said to be the (semi) mortal children of one GOd or another.
Hercules was only one of them.

Steven Law, an author, recently released a book called the philosophy of Christmas in which he looked at some philosophical arguments surrounding various religious subjects, including the proposition that God and Jesus are one, and in that he made some points which can and were condensed into these short quotes.

"God is necessarily omniscient.
Jesus is no Omniscient.
Therefore Jesus is not God."

"God is Omnipotent.
Jesus is not Omnipotent.
Therefore Jesus is not God."

"God cannot die.
Jesus died.
Therefore Jesus is not God."

Christians saying that jesus is god is just as stupid as if there were muslims who claimed that mohammed was god. Or Jews that believed that Abraham or Moses was god.

But humans aren't omniscient, and so Jesus would have no need to be. If he were, then he would overload his brain (whatever else, Jesus was also human, and so would have humanity's birth knowledge just like humanity; he would purposely limit his power and knowledge to be a human). Omnisophiant though...

He isn't? Where in the bible does Jesus ever meet a challenge his power cannot overcome? Where he finds a challenge impossible due to a lack of power, not because it would ruin the game if he sparked off?

God cannot cease to exist, or not exist at any time. Jesus was human, and so has little quirks like feeding, breathing, seeing, and dieing. He didn't cease to exist though.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
....and later in that chapter....
John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 10:29a "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all..."
...if God and Jesus are the same, then Jesus must be greater than all too...
Matthew 28:18 "Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.'"

More circular reasoning, using The Bible to prove The Bible.

How would you go about proving that Jesus was God, without the bible. Put your mind to the challenge.

The Bible is only true if Jesus is the son of God but you can only prove that Jesus is the son of God by using The Bible. This is like trying to define a word while using it in the definition. Both instances utilize circular reasoning and both are equally as pointless.

I bet you haven't understand those verses regarding the "Word".

But don't worry I'll tell you.

Jesus is God's son.

yes, He is.

Using the bible is showing proof that he exist, which is not what I was trying to prove anyway, this thread is trying to establish rather or not Jesus and God are one, and using the bible is how you would establish that. It's clear that no one has anwers to what I asked, cuz NO one is answering any of them lol

Eleven: Christians saying that jesus is god is just as stupid as if there were muslims who claimed that mohammed was god. Or Jews that believed that Abraham or Moses was god.
I didn't know christains thought Jesus was God? Now, they/we believe him to be the Son of God.

lol, sorry, I didn't bother to read what the conversation was about, I just read the thread title.

it's ok.

There are other sources that prove the existence of a historic Jesus.

The Bible cannot provide evidence for the proposition that Jesus and God are one because that very concept is contained within the premise of The Bible itself. Again, this is like trying to define a word using the word itself in the definition.

Perhaps if you asked more relevant questions, people would feel compelled to address them.

Those questions were relevent to this thread. How outside the bible can u prove that God, Jesus and the Holy spirit or one? And....I've seen alot of other peeps in this thread using the bible for evidence, so why was I fired at for using that? lol

No, it is more or less a fact that a man named jesus or something like that lived in todays Israel around 2000 years ago. So jesus is an historical figure, but thats were it ends. I aint buying any of him being a son of a god nor that jesus is divine. So to answer the original question NO

If God had a plan, and Jesus was the fulfilment of that plan, then Jesus=God due to his omnipresence. If you look at a mirror then you see your reflection, but God would see himself- he is every aspect of himself, every bit. If something is Godlike, it is God (though if a picture is you like, it is still a picture). If it isn't, it isn't. Jesus was Godlike, a part of God's personality, a beingkiss. The word is separate from God but bonded like with marriage (or like your hand).

Also, one could interpret the covenant as the protection God offered to the Jews. Like when he sent David to beat up Goliath. Not as a person several millennia later.

But it says later in that chapter "The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us." (1:12) Which means that this Word IS Christ.



John 1:3 "Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life, and that life was the light of men." Christ was with God in the beginning.

John 8:58 "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'"




The verse says that Christ was foreknown; it didn't say after that "And Christ existed as thought in the mind of the Almighty" or something like that. "The Word was with God" because the Word is God, which the first verse of John says.



It says in the same verse that the Word IS God.




What does that verse have to deal with Christ "being in the mind of God"?



What does that verse have to deal with Christ "being in the mind of God"?



What does that verse have to deal with Christ "being in the mind of God"?



What does that verse have to deal with Christ "being in the mind of God"?



Abraham and his seed, that doesn't prove anything like Christ and God are two different beings.



You just contradicted yourself.



Yes, not in the sense that the Word was another God but the same indeed.



God is a noun, whether as "God" or "the God" they're both nouns.
The man was human. Human sounds like a noun to me.



"Time" isn't a noun.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God
But it says later in that chapter "The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us." (1:12) Which means that this Word IS Christ. EXACTLY
Jesus was made flesh, so he could endure the same temptations that we all face and die on the cross for everyone's sins. Why is it that he didn't sin, but we have a difficult time at times not sinning?? I believe it's becuz Jesus knew who HE was, HE knew who HIS FATHER was, if WE would come to the same conclusion and reconize WHO we are in Christ, it wouldn't be as difficult. I don't see how GOD and JESUS could be the same.
Why would God send himself to earth, pray to himself, talk to himself (Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased), why would he LIE and tell everyone he was the Son of God?

I suggest.. that you read that post all over again.

But, what's the use? You haven't understood it the first time you read.

And sorry... the word "time" is a noun. Don't you have dictionary?

You are quoting some Bible verses, so I would assume you believe in the Bible.

Now, when the Bible says there is only one God, then there is truly one God.

When Bible says this one God is the Father, then it must be the Father.

No more, no less.

The Father is the only true God... and no other Gods before Him.

Jesus Christ is His Son as He proclaimed.

When Bible says that God is powerful, then God is indeed powerful.

When Bible says Jesus Christ is powerful because God made Him powerful, then Jesus Christ is powerful because God indeed made Him powerful. God has given Him the authority to exercise all authority.

By the word "given" alone, we can obviously distinguish that these persons are two different persons --- not ONE.

Granting without accepting that the Father and Jesus Christ are both Gods... then there will be two Gods. Can the Bible accept such premise? Definitely NOT. Because according to God Himself, there is only one God. According to Jesus Christ Himself, His Father in heaven is the ONLY TRUE GOD. According to the prophets of old and to the Apostles, there is only one God, who is the Father in heaven.

Therefore, there is only ONE God, and this God is definitely the Father, NOT the Son, NOT the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Trinity is the central Mystery of the Christian Faith. God has however given us some clues in regards to this mystery by what is seen in creation. The best example I feel, would be the Sun.

The Sun could be seen as the Father, the light that is begotten from the Sun can be seen as Christ, as he says I am the light of the world, and the heat from the sun and light which proceeds from them both, can be seen as the Holy Spirit who proceeds from both the Father and the Son as the creed says. So you have them sharing in the exact same essence or substance, yet different in relation to one another and in function.

Yet the Sun, Light, and Heat have one common purpose to nurture the earth as do the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have the one common purpose of sharing its glory with mankind and bringing us into relationship with the Godhead.

The Father begets the Son as the Sun begets the light, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as heat proceeds from the Sun and the light.

The Sun we see high in the sky, and we see the Sun through its light. In the same way, as we behold the Father through the Son, and heat is something we feel, and the Holy Spirit is the Comforter, he is the presence we feel that supports us and gives us consolations and gifts.

Therefore the one Sun shows itself as triune, sunlight and heat yet one substance or essence, as its splendid in its unity and oneness. How much more the Creator of the sun is splendid and One in his unity and oneness in his triune being.

We therefore believe in One God in three divine persons, great is the mystery of this unity. Its beyond unity, its more higher than what we can conceive as unity.

But as Saint Augustine says, if we could fully understand God he would cease to be GOD.

Michael DeAngelo

http://www.irtc.org/ftp/pub/stills/2000-08-31/sunset.jpg

Well, our true God says... He is only one true God.

Understandable enough... because God revealed it to His chosen people.

.. and there is no "mystery" whatsoever involved when we would like to come to the full knowledge of God.

.. and I don't believe in the Trinity... and even your so called "saint".

.. I believe in God and in His words written in the Bible.

P.S.... the Trinity is the Central Mystery of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism... and never been the original principle of the true Christians.

hey that was a really good example. thumbup I like it!

Humanity is far more advanced than before. But you should always remember that somebody else thought of it first. The idea of black holes was presented first in the late eighteen hundreds, I believe, and was ignored for more than a century. People say that somebody like Athanasius, or another bloke proposed it in the third century; the chances are that people believed that beforehand. Otherwise it would be rejected as blasphemy.

Ideas are rarely original when they're first patented. They would understand what I was saying, as they spoke with the bloke who said the facts. You have nought but your faith, I have logic, and a really pretty picture of a sunset. Give up. You fell behind our level of game a long time ago.

P.S. That's people blasphemy, not church blasphemy. The people wouldn't accept it.

OK i might have missed it between u and Ytaker arguing but if the Trinity was never the original principle of Christians, what was?

Trinity is no logic. People who uphold such doctrine will always end-up saying it is a "mystery".

Definitely, the original is the Bible's principles.

- God declares He is the only true God. (when we say "only", there's no other)

- Jesus proclaims that the Father who is in heaven is the only true God. (when He say it's the Father, definitely it's not the Son)

- The apostles of Jesus Christ believe that there is only one true God. (because that's what Christ taught them)

- Jesus Christ Himself never proclaimed He is the God. (because He is the Son of God)

- Apostles never taught God's people that Christ is the true God. (because they believe that the Father in heaven is the ONLY true God)

Those are some of the original principles the true Christians used to uphold and believe into.

When we say...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

do we mean:

In the beginning was the Christ, and the Christ was with God, and the Christ was God. ... ?

Well, definitely, it's not correct. Why? If Christ were the Word and He were God, then John 1:1 would be teaching not just one but two Gods. If the Word were Christ Himself and that He were God and the verse says that the Word was with God, then the obvious conclusion would be that another God was with the one true God. The aforementioned idea goes directly against the teaching of the Bible that there is only one true God.

Better to know what the "Word" used in John 1:1 really means.

"In the beginning was the Word..."


In the view of the definition given above, what was with God in the beginning was His concept or plan or idea (logos) about the Christ who would be coming into the world. The term "logos" does not refer to someone who was co-existing with God in the beginning.

The Word or "logos" is not another God but refers to the idea about Christ, which was "with God" or in God's mind in the beginning.

Thus, the clause, the "logos" was with God, indicates that the "logos" is different or distinguished from God. This position does not contradict the biblical doctrine on the absolute oneness of God. On the other hand, if we were to accept the position that the "logos" is a being who, although is distinguished from God, is also God, we would face the prospect of accepting an unbiblical position that there are two Gods.

"...and the Word was with God,..."

What does it mean that the "logos" was "with God"? About what was this concept or idea that intellectually emanated from Him?

I Peter 1:20 has the answer:

"For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you."

God has foreknown Christ before the foundation of the world. To foreknow means to know something before it happens: to have knowledge or awareness that something is going to happen. The Greek word used in this verse is "proginosko" which is defined in Perschbacher's The New Analytical Greek Lexicon as "to determine on beforehand, to foreordain." (p.345)

Now, when did Christ, who was a plan or word in the beginning, come into existence? When he was born of a woman. The Bible says:

"But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law." (Galatians 4:4)

Christ existed only when He was born. He had no prior existence. In the beginning, it was not Christ Himself who was with God; it was the concept or idea (logos) that was in the mind of God, for God had destined Christ to play an integral part in His master plan of salvation (Ephesians 3:20-21)

"...and the Word was God."

The word "God" (in Greek, theos) in the third clause of John 1:1 is not a noun but an adjective. And this is attested to by Greek grammarians, such as R.H. Strachan. In his book The Fourth Gospel: It's Significance and Environment, he explains:

William Barclay, another Greek grammarian, agrees with Strachan in classifying the term "theos" in the third clause of John 1:1 as an adjective.

Even the Bible translators agree that the term "theos" in the third clause of John 1:1 is an adjective. Here's one of the versions:

"The Logos existed in the very beginning, the Logos was with God, the Logos was divine (Moffatt's Translation)

What does it mean that the "logos" was divine? It means that the word of God is with power (Like 1:37) for the true God who has spoken the word is powerful (Genesis 35:11). Since God is Almighty, He alone has the ability to plan something and the power to bring it to completion as He testified in Isaiah 46:11,

"Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass, I have planned it surely I will do it."

God's plan of bringing His Son into the world was fulfilled when Jesus was born of His mother Mary. His birth is the fulfillment of what John wrote that "the Word was made flesh" (John 1:14).

Contrary to what some have postulated that Christ took a different form, i.e., from being God into being human, Christ never transformed Himself from being a pure spirit into an infant. He was conceived in Mary's womb through the agency of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is clear in its teaching that God does not change (Malachi 3:6) even a shadow of turning (James 1:17).

Look, read my posts.

If something is Godlike, It is God. Jesus is like the light emitted from
The sun, sunlight (remember, one page back?). Sunlight is the most important thing in all of the Earth's history of life. Without it, food would not exist. But that incredible volume of sunlight cannot exist independently of the sun, nor can the sun exist without the aid of an enormous volume of light. It's required to negate gravity's pull, if you're interested, but that's beside the point. They are one and the same.

He never changes. I never said he did. We're just seeing a different side of it. If my girlfriend caught me in bed with her sister, then she would show a completely attitude, in which she hated me, and her sister. But it would just be out of her ingrained belief that adultery is wrong, and that her sister steals things, like her dresses, shoes, and now boyfriends. Jesus was a part of God all along, just as PMS behavioural horsy is always hidden within my beautiful Aphrodite.

ok i think, having read all those post from Jury and some of the previous ones from Ytaker, id be very inclined to say that i think i agree with Ytaker on this issue . . . . . .
off the top of my head, John 10:30 (I think) Jesus says 'i and my father and one' . . . . . or something similar to that . . . .

I'm not going to even bother reading all 6 pages but aside from God and Jesus neither being the same person, God's not a person at all. He's an entity, and contrary to popular belief, Mary isn't his mother.

Two different "people" entirely.

she didnt have a little lamb either

for the sake of argument if they were the same person why would jesus ask "my god my god why have thou forsaken me" on the cross.

Precisely, fins.

And why would He pray to God when He is the God Himself?

Because Jesus was God taking a HUMAN form on earth. Jesus is God's son, but at the same time he is also God himself.... trippy i know, but thats the way it is. Go read your bible and you'll find numerous references to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
In the Gospels, so much of the pharises' complaints about Jesus come from the fact that he is using God's authority to do Godly stuff like driving out demons. Indeed, no one BUT God has that kind of authority and power, and seeing that Jesus managed to do it, doesnt that show that he is God.... sounds like selective believing to me

Because Jesus was God taking a HUMAN form on earth. Jesus is God's son, but at the same time he is also God himself.... trippy i know, but thats the way it is. Go read your bible and you'll find numerous references to God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
In the Gospels, so much of the pharises' complaints about Jesus come from the fact that he is using God's authority to do Godly stuff like driving out demons. Indeed, no one BUT God has that kind of authority and power, and seeing that Jesus managed to do it, doesnt that show that he is God.... sounds like selective believing to me

Its kinda like water. There's water the ice, water the water, water the vapour and jabba the hut....wait, wrong forum... Water can take different forms and its still essentially the same thing, its just sorta different each time.

The answer is simply yes.

God is the spirit, the son, and the holy father.

It's in th bible stragiht out. no need to right paragraphs.

Jesus is part of the Holy trinity which consists of God (the Father), Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit. As has been said, Jesus was both God and man. He was man filled completely with the Holy Spirit. He was sent to fulfill the law of Moses and usher in a new era for the followers of God. God loved the world so much, he gave his only begotten son to cleanse mankind of sin. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. And as Jesus said, no one will enter paradise without first coming through Him. Jesus was the embodiement of God on earth.

are you assuming everyone has a bible?

if he is god himself why did he even bother to pray in the Gethsemane before he was captured then, and if jesus and god were the same then practically the world was without a god for a day and a half before he resurected on the third day.

strange that he was himself a victim of a violation of the 6th commandment then

I am a Christian. I do believe in God and Jesus Christ.
But sorry. there's nowhere in the Bible states that so. (God became human?)

The Bible didn't say that the one true God takes a human form and became Jesus. Never.

Why? Because God Himself proclaimed that He is God and not man. He wouldn't allow Himself to be both man ang God. And wouldn't allow any man to become God. God don't change and doesn't have the shadow of turning. That's what in the Bible... Not the God became human thing.

If there is... can you please show it?
And how can be the Father and the Son be both Gods?

And by the way.. do you know why Jesus can do such authorities like God's?... Didn't the Bible say that those authorities were given to Him by none other than God Himself?

well all ican say is we dont know the bible was written long time ago so we dont know makes u wonder......about life

Look at my posts, and you'll se that there are. Give what to man what is his, and to God what is his. I believe that there was a "kenosis" of God, where all the power of God, knowledge etc was emptied, making him a Human. I believe that he is God; you believe that he is a super prophet. Try Islam, they actually have a general belief of that.

I've stated verses that put him on the level of God, and as I said before, if you have the essence of a being, you are that being. Only God can forgive us, only he can die on the cross. That is part of his essence

You haven't done anything even close to disputing what I say. There are verses, and I've explained them. Your belief just cannot accept it.

Yes, how can a howling demon be the one who I value most in the world for her calm serenity and Love?

God cannot give himself to a being. He is infinite. He can only empty himself of infinity and go into a being.

You have some interesting points, and it is a big concept to get ones head around. I will ask some questions that might seem silly, but eh, so when Jesus was on earth, was there still, in essence, a separate entity that is "God", (I know God is said to be infinate and in all things, but is still it seems seperate from them) and didn't Jesus say something to God while on the cross about being forsaken by him? Was he in a way talking to himself? Does this have any relevance to the argument?

Ah, very good. I believe I understand. Thank you.

This is simple if you think about it...LOL

God is the creator in Christian Faith.

Jesus is a simple and humble man, a Carpenter, a Prophet who was born to the Virgin Mary through the Creator who is God. He came down to save us from our Sins in the Christian Faith and on the third day rose from the dead and entered the Kingdom of Heaven.

Catholics do not see him as God, but as the son of God.

"Eli Eli Lama sabachthani, my God, my God, why have your forsaken me?
Literally it means, "God, God, abandon?" There have been numerous thoughts on this, but my guess is that in the height of his agony Jesus went slightly delirious (as shown by the fact that he reverted into his native language) and was filled with all the sin. He felt God's gaze avert (and the love he had always known), as God cannot look on Sin, and cried out the famous phrase on instinct. He had accepted it, but he briefly forgot what that meant. But, I cannot be sure. Just a guess."


Hey that was really cool - i never thought of that

Remember again one thing... there are differences between Jesus and God... and those differences are pretty obvious.

Jesus Himself even claimed that He can do nothing without God.

Those "authorities" exercised by Jesus are all God-given.
Meaning those qualities are not inherent to Christ ... those are GIVEN to Him by God. Thus by saying:

"All authorities in heaven and in earth are given to me by my Father."

...simply means that Jesus Christ Himself is not powerful without God.

Again, there is only one God... and that is the Father in heaven. When we say it is the Father, definitely it is not the Son, nor the Holy Spirit.



The Bible, on the other hand, never claimed and/or proclaimed that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all one God... composes the one true God, etc.

But it's only the Father who is the one and only true God.

Not the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

Remember also that Jesus Christ once revealed that He didn't know when the Day of Judgment would really come, for no one knows except God. If He is the God Himself, do you think, He would proclaim such thing?

And what I am saying here is obviously Biblical. Not just personal interpretation.

Regarding to God-given qualities to Christ, the Bible has this to say:

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the God head bodily." (Col. 2:9 ,KJV)

"Godhead" refers to the quality or attributes of God. God gave those qualities of God that dwell in Christ to Him. Jesus forgives our sins... because God made Him to do so.

"Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me'."
(Mt. 28:18, NIV)

"Which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church." (Eph. 1:20-22, NIV)

The numerous attributes that Christ possesses, all of which came from God, have led many to believe that Christ Himself is God. Jesus Christ remains different from God because all those attributes of God are God's inherently, while all those that are in Christ were just given to Him.

And, above all, the fact that God has attributes not found in Christ such as being immortal, all-knowing, all-powerful, untiring and never weary, prove that Christ is different from God and, hence, not God.

Even to worship Christ is God's commandment

Our Lord Jesus Christ accepts prayers because God made Him the Mediator between men and God...

That authority is not inherent in Christ Himself... but such authority was given to Him by God.

It is the same as to worship Christ. It is God's will that the Lord Jesus Christ be worshipped for such brings glory to Him. The Almighty commanded that every knee should bow at the name of Jesus. Who are we to refuse such commandment? And why should our Lord Jesus rebuke us for worshipping Him when it is our God's commandment?

"Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Phillip. 2:9-11, NKJV)

Therefore Jesus Christ should be worshipped - not because He is God, but because this is the commandment of God.

Even Christ is now in heaven with God.. He is still distinguished from God -- as "sitting at the right hand of God."

Why do you keep referring to the bible as if it is fact.
If you only believe that the bible is the word of god because it says so in the bible, isn't that a rather circular argument.?

I've just had a thought. Not only God can forgive, only a God can forgive. If the power Jesus possessed rivals that of God, is equal to it in any way he wishes it, that would make him a God. The Holy Spirit would be a Demigod, due to his ability to surpass every other spirit in deed. So that would make our religon a polygamy.

Could you ever do anything without yourself? I explained this, Jesus performed Kenosis, which meant that the Godly might was in heaven where it belongs. He emptied himself of the emptied use of his abilities. I see I need to go in much greater depth for my theorum to be accepted as a theory. Lets go back in time, and see what scholars have said about this matter

Firstly, we have Benjamin Warfield at the end of the prior century, ascribing attributes to either his divine nature, or his human nature. When Jesus did something Godly, that was supposed be be part of his deity. When he did something that's finite, humanic, like crying, that's ascribed to his humanity. The problem was that you began to end up with a schizophrenic Jesus. You had to avoid putting him into two minds; a Jesus anthropic mind, a Christ Divine mind. It didn't work. So a new solution had to be made.

This solution was the idea of Kenosis. I can't remember, or I haven't been told who suggested this, but it has been the founding for most of the work in this field. It was probably inspired by Philippians 2 where Paul says that Jesus, being in the form of God, did not think equality with God was something to be exploited, or something like that. What did he empty himself of?

Was it the attributes of his Godhood? I can't see that working, because if you have a creature looks like a dog, smells like a dog, acts in general like a Dog, then you have a Dog. If anything has any one of them, then it is most likely a Dog. I'm not sure how a being could not have the attributes of God, but be God. Could a dolphin like creature be a tree?

Some people say that he self limited himself, that he restricted the use of his power. But some things only God can do. If it has leaves and a trunk, it is a tree. If it can forgive and add a new deegre of realtionship with God (he calls God "abba" and invites his disciples to use that word too. It means approxamately "father dearest", a term never used before by a Jew)

Then you get back to mine. Jesus was part of God before, and since he trusted him, would allow the one with the greater knowledge and vision make the desicions of what was the right course. He was limited in order to take sins, but had an inimate connection with God that gave him some power. Whilst he was there, he could be a solution, and so healed and forgave a ton of people. He was a part of the one true God. His light to the world. God has always been intimate with humanity, and through Jesus we can reach him. But you cannot reach a being like that unless something can both bridge an infinite gap, and be small enough to understand.

He may be distinguished, but they are still one. Read my sunlight example.

Only a God should be worshiped. No false idols. Unfortunately for people like you evil, our religon isn't a Polygamy. We don't bow our knees at the ten commandmants, but we do at any God. Be told.

What right does God have to send another to die on the cross? It was a choice. Only God has the right to make the choice to give his life. Just like a guy diving in front of the president to take a bullet. Only he can make the desition, and not be evil.

Christ as a human is that. God solved a task by becoming human. But still, look at the examples where Jesus was weak. Take where he cursed the Fig tree. One could easily see that as a reference to the fruit Israil owed God. An acted out parable. Jesus never showed any weakness unless it was unavoidable, or for his faith. Plus he was omniscient sometimes. He read the pharisee's minds after healing the guy with bad legs who came through the roof. He predicted the fall of the temple in Mark 13 1-2, which happened in 70 AD.

I'd have to take it in Context. I need a bible verse.

God is three persons in one....God the Father , God the Son, God the Holy Ghost.....think of it in human terms...we're body, spirit, and souls

Except me.

it aint illogical either, a multiple god is in the "spirit" of other mythological cultures as well as the christian one

Trinity is not illogical... take any object in the real world- it has height, width and length, even a sheet of paper has a width

According to my religion, they're the same.
God has three personalities- God Father, God Son(often known as Jesus), and God the Holy Ghost(known as the Holy Spirit).

But it's all one God just three different personalities- it's called the trinity.

"According to my religion, they're the same.
God has three personalities- God Father, God Son(often known as Jesus), and God the Holy Ghost(known as the Holy Spirit).

But it's all one God just three different personalities- it's called the trinity."

Agreed thumbsup



"God is three persons in one....God the Father , God the Son, God the Holy Ghost.....think of it in human terms...we're body, spirit, and souls"

Yep thumbs_up



"Why do you keep referring to the bible as if it is fact.
If you only believe that the bible is the word of god because it says so in the bible, isn't that a rather circular argument.?"

So would, in a way, be the arguement that it is fiction. 'its fiction because i dont believe it. If i dont believe it, it must be fiction. it therefore must be fiction because i dont believe it.' Round and round if u ask me. *shrugs*




"What right does God have to send another to die on the cross? It was a choice. Only God has the right to make the choice to give his life. Just like a guy diving in front of the president to take a bullet. Only he can make the desition, and not be evil."

Yeah, but remember in the garden of Gethsemene 'Your will not mine.'

If you mean "they are still one God" then prove it with the Bible.

Yes, only God should be worshiped. And God should be obeyed.

It is God who commanded His people to worship Christ... not Christ commanded His people to worship Him.

As I said... It is God's commandment to worship His Son, Jesus Christ. We worship Him, not because He is God (because He was never proclaimed as God), but because to give glory to the Father who is in heaven.

Where in the Bible exactly tells us that God Himself became a human being?.. and became Jesus Christ?

Yes, Jesus Christ indeed performed such miracles... but didn't He say that without His Father, He can do nothing? Why would He say that if He is the God Himself?

Remember, that throughout the Bible, it is not only Christ who did miracles to proclaim the highness of God. Even the Apostles of Christ performed similar miracles as to Christ did.

They were the instruments of God to prove that God is still supreme among them.

if there is a god, then he wouldnt discriminate depending on what your religion is. Why would such a powerful being need the worship of mortal humans to make him feel secure and loved.

On the other hand, why bother being a god if there is nobody to worship you.

Later

Do you have Biblical proof of that?

Where in the Bible has ever mentioned the phrases "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit"?

Irrelevant. We are not talking here about the existence of God.

Don't we have a thread like "Is there really a God...?" or something? You can come there and ask.