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The setting is Hoth, The Echo Base

Both Post-hand removel

Post-hand removal? Do they have the cybernetics or...?

If not, Luke wins because he has more of an arm than Anakin.

Being serious now; Anakin had far more skill than Luke did. Anakin was on year 10 of his training, whereas Luke was on year 3 of his half-training.

This is the gayest thread I have seen in a long time. Both were crying their asses of.

I've seen worse.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
This is the gayest thread I have seen in a long time. Both were crying their asses of.

That's cause they normally whinge but neither wanted the Sith know they were such spoilt brats as it may have damaged potential career prospects.

Being serious though, Anakin would win easy for three reasons:

1. Luke was always reluctant to fight his father, while Anakin always had noticeable flashes of bad intent.

2. Luke's too slow.

3. Anakin not only takes more risks, but he knows when to take them.

Anakin, primarily because he's had more training and proper training, not some watered down, bastardised version.

this has been done before.

Luke beat Vader, who is FAR more powerful than AOTC Anakin.

but vader was holding back. i think that anakin had way more training and better traing than luke. Plus luk didnt look too impressve in ROTJ

That was do to the technology available back then. With current technology, he would be a pimp. Luke also solidly beat Vader during that brief period of rage.

i know what you mean about the technology thing, i say the same thing about vader. But i think that if vader had no feelings at all towards luke at the time and he was just planning to kill him and not turn him to the darkside, he would have defeated luke before luke used his rage.

Well Luke was the one who said that he wouldent fight him and Darth said he would die for that mistake. He almost killed him by tossing his lightsaber. Luke kicked Darth down the stairs about 30 seconds in the fight, if he wanted he could have ended it there. Luke was the one not wanting to kill Darth, until he mentioned Leia.

vader was having way more internal struggles

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Luke beat Vader, who is FAR more powerful than AOTC Anakin.

The Exile beat Nihilus, Nihilus could beat everybody except for the Exile... Does that mean the Exile can defeat everybody except for the Exile?

No.. Not a good argument.

I agree it's not a good argument but really, Anakin is a weaker Darth Vader don't you think?. I really don't think Lucas intentions was to make a padawan Anakin be better than the Lord of the Sith (second to Palpatine).

Originally posted by Lord Coal
That's cause they normally whinge but neither wanted the Sith know they were such spoilt brats as it may have damaged potential career prospects.

Being serious though, Anakin would win easy for three reasons:

1. Luke was always reluctant to fight his father, while Anakin always had noticeable flashes of bad intent.

2. Luke's too slow.

3. Anakin not only takes more risks, but he knows when to take them.

sure, like when he decided to show of, and have his arms and legs severed.

Luke for sure. he beat Vader. Now, lets look at the facts.
Luke is stronger than Vader (after Vader got injured). Source: ROTJ
In ROTS Anakin is twice as strong as he was in AOTC. Source: ROTS
Vader lost 1/2 his power when he got injured(source: George Lucas), meaning ROTS mechanical Vader = AOTC Anakin
But Vader hadn't reached his full potential yet by ROTS, meaning he still had room to get stronger. After getting his injuries he lost 1/2 his power and 1/2 his potential, but still he had room to grom (if his full potential was 100 and he was at 50 then he got injured he's be at 25 with his full potential at 50, thus leaving room to grow stronger). So even if Vader never ever got any stronger after becoming mechanical we know form this information that Luke is stronger, since we know Mechanical Vader is at least as strong as AOTC Anakin and Luke is stronger than mechanical Vader.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Luke for sure. he beat Vader. Now, lets look at the facts.
Luke is stronger than Vader (after Vader got injured). Source: ROTJ
In ROTS Anakin is twice as strong as he was in AOTC. Source: ROTS
Vader lost 1/2 his power when he got injured(source: George Lucas), meaning ROTS mechanical Vader = AOTC Anakin
But Vader hadn't reached his full potential yet by ROTS, meaning he still had room to get stronger. After getting his injuries he lost 1/2 his power and 1/2 his potential, but still he had room to grom (if his full potential was 100 and he was at 50 then he got injured he's be at 25 with his full potential at 50, thus leaving room to grow stronger). So even if Vader never ever got any stronger after becoming mechanical we know form this information that Luke is stronger, since we know Mechanical Vader is at least as strong as AOTC Anakin and Luke is stronger than mechanical Vader. Let's look at another fact.

Did you notice how both the ROTJ Vader AND Luke, during their saber fight, were just stepping to one another and swinging their swords like Medieval soldiers in Braveheart?

Where as, we see Anakin flipping and blocking and swinging like a madman--in comparison to Luke and Vader that is....Yoda was even crazier. Lets see OT Jedi dance the way that PT Jedi danced.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Luke for sure. he beat Vader. Now, lets look at the facts.
Luke is stronger than Vader (after Vader got injured). Source: ROTJ
In ROTS Anakin is twice as strong as he was in AOTC. Source: ROTS
Vader lost 1/2 his power when he got injured(source: George Lucas), meaning ROTS mechanical Vader = AOTC Anakin
But Vader hadn't reached his full potential yet by ROTS, meaning he still had room to get stronger. After getting his injuries he lost 1/2 his power and 1/2 his potential, but still he had room to grom (if his full potential was 100 and he was at 50 then he got injured he's be at 25 with his full potential at 50, thus leaving room to grow stronger). So even if Vader never ever got any stronger after becoming mechanical we know form this information that Luke is stronger, since we know Mechanical Vader is at least as strong as AOTC Anakin and Luke is stronger than mechanical Vader.

Okay, where does it say that Luke is stronger than Vader? ROTJ? In ROTJ, he battered down Vader in a suit. Vader wasn't really putting up much of a fight, but as soon as Luke decides not to go through with the killing blow and gets shocked, Vader is right up on his feet. If you ask me, it's like the same scenario with Anakin and Dooku in ROTS; Vader was throwing the fight.

Second, Anakin says "My powers have doubled since we last met, Count." From ROTS. Is this supposed to be an accurate, canon measure of Anakin's abilities? I don't think so. Anakin also says that Obi-Wan is as wise as master Yoda and as strong as Master WIndu. Also, in ROTS, Obi-Wan calls Anakin wise and strong. The former, we know he's not.

So really, none of this proves anything. Luke beat Vader but he isn't neccessarily better. In the same scenario in ROTS, Anakin beat Dooku who was a very proficient duellist of considerable experience. And in TPM, Obi-Wan defeated a Sith Lord as a padawan, though he was not neccessarily better.

I think the real question that needs to be addressed here is how can ROTJ Luke be better than a jedi with ten years of training? I personally don't see it.

He can't... He isn't.. He loses.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Let's look at another fact.

Did you notice how both the ROTJ Vader AND Luke, during their saber fight, were just stepping to one another and swinging their swords like Medieval soldiers in Braveheart?

Where as, we see Anakin flipping and blocking and swinging like a madman--in comparison to Luke and Vader that is....Yoda was even crazier. Lets see OT Jedi dance the way that PT Jedi danced.
Yeah, I noticed all those things. However, in this instance we must use the facts that have been pured out in front of us.

Yeah, he beat suited Vader, which is exactly what I said. As for where it says Luke is stronger than Vader, well, for one thing I saw ROTJ. For another thing in this thread everbody said Luke.

All right, you got me. Was hoping no one caught that one weak point. The Shatterpoint of my arguement. He also says he is strong enough to take out Sidious, which isn't an accurate measure of his abilities, either.

Okay, new argeument that should put this debate under the belt, but first I must ask Janus and anyone else who wishes to answer a question: In AOTC is Yoda at least twice as strong as Anakin?

Umm yoda was better than him 2x, maybe 3x.

Yoda is more than three times stronger than Anakin. Yoda could take Dooku after a good fight, and look at how Dooku wasted Obi-wan and Anakin in AOTC without really trying to hard.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Umm yoda was better than him 2x, maybe 3x.
Cool, I think so too. But I;m going to wait to make my point until Janus comes back.

I am BORED!

If by twice as strong you mean is Yoda twice as good as Anakin, that's a hard question to answer exactly.

Why? Well, trying to get an exact number (like 200 % of something) is hard as hell to do in a world outside of a science lab.

But looking at AOTC, we see Yoda counter Dooku's Force attacks, something which neither Obi-Wan nor Anakin could do even as of ROTS. In particular, Yoda blocks the Sith lightning with his hand. He is the only person on the jedi side who can do this.

In blade combat, Yoda fares much better than Anakin and Obi-Wan. Essentially, he goes toe to toe with Dooku using one blade and is more successful than Anakin with two blades. I'm not even 100% convinced Yoda was trying to disarm or kill Dooku either. In any case, Yoda as of AOTC is MUCH better than Anakin. However, by ROTS, Anakin has gotten considerably better while Yoda hasn't changed much, but Yoda is still way beyond Anakin at this stage. So it seems pretty evident that AOTC Anakin is quite a bit below Yoda's level.

All right, since Admiral Akbar said two or three times as powerful and so did Darth_Glentract (although he always said Luke) I'll go ahead and prove my point.


George Lucas says in ROTJ Luke is 1/2 trained. He also says Luke becomes the strongest jedi, even stronger than Yoda. That means if Yoda is over twice as strong as Anakin (AOTC) then so is fully trained Luke. So FT (fully trained) Luke = AOTC Anakin X 2+, meaning 1/2 FT Luke (ROTJ Luke) is more powerful than AOTC Anakin.

that was total bull**** dont do that (on offence)

Originally posted by darthsith19
All right, since Admiral Akbar said two or three times as powerful and so did Darth_Glentract (although he always said Luke) I'll go ahead and prove my point.


George Lucas says in ROTJ Luke is 1/2 trained. He also says Luke becomes the strongest jedi, even stronger than Yoda. That means if Yoda is over twice as strong as Anakin (AOTC) then so is fully trained Luke. So FT (fully trained) Luke = AOTC Anakin X 2+, meaning 1/2 FT Luke (ROTJ Luke) is more powerful than AOTC Anakin.

Huh. Okay.

- Where does Lucas say that ROTJ Luke is half trained? Is this in reference to being a jedi, or overall trained? What does this make? Does this affect force mastery, potential, etc?

- When did Lucas say ROTJ Luke is better than Yoda? How could this be? If he was better than Yoda, why was he writhing on the ground suffering under Sidious' lightning? Even for a GL quote, this doesn't make sense enough to believe. Source?

- You saw the movies. How can you say with any degree of confidence that Anakin was inferior to Luke?

Hes talking about full potential Luke.

And this thread isn't.

Yep, we are talking about ROTJ Luke, not idiotic, godlike, oh so mighty NJO Luke.

Originally posted by darthsith19
All right, since Admiral Akbar said two or three times as powerful and so did Darth_Glentract (although he always said Luke) I'll go ahead and prove my point.


George Lucas says in ROTJ Luke is 1/2 trained. He also says Luke becomes the strongest jedi, even stronger than Yoda. That means if Yoda is over twice as strong as Anakin (AOTC) then so is fully trained Luke. So FT (fully trained) Luke = AOTC Anakin X 2+, meaning 1/2 FT Luke (ROTJ Luke) is more powerful than AOTC Anakin.

I said Yoda is MORE than three times stronger than AOTC Anakin. Still, it would show your point if you could back it up with other things, like quotes and references.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Huh. Okay.

- Where does Lucas say that ROTJ Luke is half trained? Is this in reference to being a jedi, or overall trained? What does this make? Does this affect force mastery, potential, etc?

- When did Lucas say ROTJ Luke is better than Yoda? How could this be? If he was better than Yoda, why was he writhing on the ground suffering under Sidious' lightning? Even for a GL quote, this doesn't make sense enough to believe. Source?

- You saw the movies. How can you say with any degree of confidence that Anakin was inferior to Luke?
1. In the ROTJ AC. A 1/2 trained Jedi.
2. I heard he said it in some interview. And this is NJO Luke, not ROTJ Luke.
3. You saw my proof, proof coming from Lucas himself.

Originally posted by darthsith19
1. In the ROTJ AC. A 1/2 trained Jedi.
2. I heard he said it in some interview. And this is NJO Luke, not ROTJ Luke.
3. You saw my proof, proof coming from Lucas himself.

1. Half-trained jedi by ROTJ doesn't explain how he can beat Anakin in this thread.

2. Cite please if you're gonna hold a stance with some interview, somewhere, sometime. And this thread is not about NJO Luke, so let's not waste our time there. I highly doubt that GL outlined and made NJO Luke, considering what a ridiculous pile of BS he has become.

3. What proof? I don't see a thing; just you posting and apparently not proving how ROTJ Luke can defeat Anakin.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
1. Half-trained jedi by ROTJ doesn't explain how he can beat Anakin in this thread.

2. Cite please if you're gonna hold a stance with some interview, somewhere, sometime. And this thread is not about NJO Luke, so let's not waste our time there. I highly doubt that GL outlined and made NJO Luke, considering what a ridiculous pile of BS he has become.

3. What proof? I don't see a thing; just you posting and apparently not proving how ROTJ Luke can defeat Anakin.
Half trained does make sense. So does me mentioning NJO Luke. I heard on starwars.com Lucas said Luke was the strongest jedi and a few other sites too. So full trained Luke > Yoda meaning 1/2 trained Luke/ROTJ Luke X 2 ? Yoda. So if you think AOTC Anakin could beat ROTJ Luke you think Yoda is less than twice as powerful as AOTC Anakin. It makes perfect sense.

Luke may be, cannonically, one of the most powerful Jedi, he actually MAY be.......he just SHOULDN'T be.......his whole story of coming to the power he has in NJO isn't the greatest story of hardcore Jedi Training.

It's better to keep the semi-demi-god Jedi in the past, when the Sith and Dark Side were much more rampant and powerful than post-Imperial Regime.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Half trained does make sense. So does me mentioning NJO Luke. I heard on starwars.com Lucas said Luke was the strongest jedi and a few other sites too. So full trained Luke > Yoda meaning 1/2 trained Luke/ROTJ Luke X 2 ? Yoda. So if you think AOTC Anakin could beat ROTJ Luke you think Yoda is less than twice as powerful as AOTC Anakin. It makes perfect sense.

NJO Luke > Yoda

1/2 Trained Luke (as a jedi, not total) x 2 = Yoda?

AOTC Anakin > ROTJ (1/2 trained) Luke
therefore Yoda< 2 x AOTC Anakin?

WTF?

First off, using numbers like this is ridiculous, because this isn't an exact science. They don't have stats, and there are so many variables it's unreal.

Second, anyone on KMC or another site saying that Yoda is twice or three times as powerful compared to AOTC Anakin isn't a reliable canon source. Not even a good beginning for inferences.

And third, the phrase is half trained jedi, not halfway to NJO. If anything, the Jedi Academy series is halfway to NJO, not ROTJ. So trying to say that ROTJ Luke is half as good as NJO Luke is seriously off base. Point being, AOTC Anakin is better than ROTJ Luke. It's simple; watch the movies. AOTC Anakin fought hordes of Geonosians, survived a firefight in the middle of an open arena, slaughtered an entire Tusken Raider village, and even held his own against Dooku for longer than Obi-Wan did. ROTJ Luke barely took on the crew of Jabba's sailbarge.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
NJO Luke > Yoda

1/2 Trained Luke (as a jedi, not total) x 2 = Yoda?

AOTC Anakin > ROTJ (1/2 trained) Luke
therefore Yoda< 2 x AOTC Anakin?

WTF?

First off, using numbers like this is ridiculous, because this isn't an exact science. They don't have stats, and there are so many variables it's unreal.

Second, anyone on KMC or another site saying that Yoda is twice or three times as powerful compared to AOTC Anakin isn't a reliable canon source. Not even a good beginning for inferences.

And third, the phrase is half trained jedi, not halfway to NJO. If anything, the Jedi Academy series is halfway to NJO, not ROTJ. So trying to say that ROTJ Luke is half as good as NJO Luke is seriously off base. Point being, AOTC Anakin is better than ROTJ Luke. It's simple; watch the movies. AOTC Anakin fought hordes of Geonosians, survived a firefight in the middle of an open arena, slaughtered an entire Tusken Raider village, and even held his own against Dooku for longer than Obi-Wan did. ROTJ Luke barely took on the crew of Jabba's sailbarge.
Well we all know why Anakin held on longer than obi wan...

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Well we all know why Anakin held on longer than obi wan...

Dooku was toying with him?

Meh, no matter which way you spin that fight even, the point remains that Anakin is much more capable than ROTJ Luke. And if the movie isn't good enough, read The Approaching Storm.

That I agree with. ROTJ did nothing impressive, anakin fought during the clone wars. Luke sat back and trained.. Why do people think Luke is better?

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
That I agree with. ROTJ did nothing impressive, anakin fought during the clone wars. Luke sat back and trained.. Why do people think Luke is better?

Bias, really. A lot of people like Luke, and he is the hero of the OT. But saying he is good enough to compete with a PT jedi is ludicrous. Hell, GL himself supposively said that the PT jedi are better than the OT. This would make everyone weaker in the OT, including Vader, Ben, and Luke, then their respective counterparts of the PT era.

In Luke's case, he would just plain be on the bottom.

totally, but there was no republic to train new jedi in OT. The empire killed of almost every jedi.. but I was wondering..

Coruscant has the jedi council and all, but are there other places in the galaxy like dantooine were other jedi trained? I read the dark horse comics and there were some wierd ass jedi in there. One of them said
"You coruscant jedi take your time dont you." Where else do the jedi camp at. What planets?

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
totally, but there was no republic to train new jedi in OT. The empire killed of almost every jedi.. but I was wondering..

Coruscant has the jedi council and all, but are there other places in the galaxy like dantooine were other jedi trained? I read the dark horse comics and there were some wierd ass jedi in there. One of them said
"You coruscant jedi take your time dont you." Where else do the jedi camp at. What planets?

Supposively on Dantooine, Arkania, and a few other places. But the main one by the time of the PT is on Corsucant, I think, because of the lower number of jedi in comparison to the other times.

How many Jedi were there just before the Great Sith War?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
How many Jedi were there just before the Great Sith War?

Great Sith War? Is that the one with Exar Kun? There were literally tens of thousands in the attack team on Yavin alone.

Yes, The Great Sith War was the one with Kun.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yes, The Great Sith War was the one with Kun.

Well, the numbers were considerable. But of course they were pretty much wiped out between that war and the Jedi civil War. This probably greatly contributed to the low number of jedi in the PT era, since strong Force sensitivity is inherited.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Supposively on Dantooine, Arkania, and a few other places. But the main one by the time of the PT is on Corsucant, I think, because of the lower number of jedi in comparison to the other times.

They were better than ROTS obi.... It was just weird.. Mace was considered the 2nd best jedi... but who knows there were other out there.

That doesn't make much sense to me. The Chu'unthor had the capability to house 10,000 Jedi. I don't think that it was the Jedi main training area.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
They were better than ROTS obi.... It was just weird.. Mace was considered the 2nd best jedi... but who knows there were other out there.

I was also wondering that about KOTOR. Revan is the most important person in the galaxy at that time, yet he isn't being handled by the Jedi Council of Coruscant. I think Janus, you gave somesort of answer in this, but I don't remember what it was.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I was also wondering that about KOTOR. Revan is the most important person in the galaxy at that time, yet he isn't being handled by the Jedi Council of Coruscant. I think Janus, you gave somesort of answer in this, but I don't remember what it was.

I think the jedi were hiding out at Dantooine, regardless of what Bastila says. And in any case, most of the surviving jedi masters on the council at Dantooine were also on the Council at Coruscant. I think they were just in exile for the time being, because of the war.

I forgot.... did bastila say the council in couruscant or did the dantooine masters say that

Well, Bastila said the jedi were safe at dantooine, but they weren't. And considering many of the jedi masters who presided over the Exile's Banishment at the end of the Mandalorian wars included a few Dantooine jedi masters.

Anyone have any thoughts on why the Chu'unthor had the ability to house 10,000 when there were other academies and it was only 300 or 400 years before PT when they had about 10,000.

But in Kotor 2 it showed the coruscant jedi council and the dantooine jedi were not in it..

Notice that over half of the Coruscant Council seats were empty.

yeah I noticed that.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Anyone have any thoughts on why the Chu'unthor had the ability to house 10,000 when there were other academies and it was only 300 or 400 years before PT when they had about 10,000.

What's this now?

I don't recognize the name Chu'hunthor.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
What's this now?

I don't recognize the name Chu'hunthor.

Neather do I...

It was a mobile Jedi Academy. It crashed on Dathomir. The Jedi negotiated to be let leave in peace if they left all the teachings on Dathomir. Luke liberated the Witches from the Nightsisters and they gave him the teachings in gratitude, allowing him to start the Jedi Praxeum.

Interesting.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It was a mobile Jedi Academy. It crashed on Dathomir. The Jedi negotiated to be let leave in peace if they left all the teachings on Dathomir. Luke liberated the Witches from the Nightsisters and they gave him the teachings in gratitude, allowing him to start the Jedi Praxeum.

Let me guess...NJO

No. "start the Jedi Praxeum". Although I'm not sure of the exact time, if had to have been before five years after ROTJ.

What the hell is the deal with the audio advertisements up top??

There is already a thread in the off topic section aobut how gay they are. Whatever keeps KMC free though...

I guess. Still, the thing scares me sometimes. It just kicks on and the room is all quiet.

I am playing music pretty loud, but those ads comeup WAY louder, and it is after mid-night here and I am not supposed to be up anymore(sucks being a kid).

I have headphones on, and tonight I'm not in the mood for sounds, so there's no music playing.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
I have headphones on, and tonight I'm not in the mood for sounds, so there's no music playing.

I never get audio popups..fact I never get popups period...

not popups. adds at the top of the screen

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
not popups. adds at the top of the screen

I have never had one of those that makes noise either.

Just wait then.

This thread also needs pics.

The advantages of add block

At least I have crazy frog audio adds! Ring ding ding ding ding ding! nuke

Originally posted by Tangible God
Luke may be, cannonically, one of the most powerful Jedi, he actually MAY be.......he just SHOULDN'T be.......his whole story of coming to the power he has in NJO isn't the greatest story of hardcore Jedi Training.

It's better to keep the semi-demi-god Jedi in the past, when the Sith and Dark Side were much more rampant and powerful than post-Imperial Regime.
I agree that he shouldn't be and in ROTJ he shouldn't be stronger than AOTC Anakin but what Lucas says is what Lucas says.

How is it unreal? Sure there's lots of viariables but this is the most sound proof we've got.

Hmm, I guess I should have got you to say Yoda was more than twice as powerful as AOTC Anakin before I posted my proof.

Sorry, I should have said at least half as good. And I said 1/2 trained Luke. If he is fully trained in NJO that'd mean NJO Luke is twice as strong as ROTJ Luke. So ROTJ Luke X 2 = At least as strong as NJO Luke.

Hey. Listen to George Lucas. Guess what buddy. He's the creater of Star Wars. Whatever he says goes. Deal with it.

Anakin fought hordes of genonsians and lost. So he took out 30 or 40 Tuskens. Big deal. So he held his own against Dooku for nearly a minute. Luke beat Vader. And Luke didn't barely beat jabba's crew. He had no trouble with them. And it'd take a strong Jedi to take out all of Jabba's crew.
'

More Darthsith19 obsfucation...


I agree that he shouldn't be and in ROTJ he shouldn't be stronger than AOTC Anakin but what Lucas says is what Lucas says.

Lucas said that ROTJ Luke is stronger than AOTC Anakin and would most likely beat him in combat? I doubt this.


How is it unreal? Sure there's lots of viariables but this is the most sound proof we've got.

Variables make for an uncertain outcome, and you would have to consider every variable, not just the ones you want to accept. This is like saying SW characters have power levels that are constant, like in DBZ or something. It's ridiculous.


Hmm, I guess I should have got you to say Yoda was more than twice as powerful as AOTC Anakin before I posted my proof.

What difference would that have made? Your argument doesn't add up so far. And you're making it out of completely ad hoc hearsay and not based on anything from the movies.


Sorry, I should have said at least half as good. And I said 1/2 trained Luke. If he is fully trained in NJO that'd mean NJO Luke is twice as strong as ROTJ Luke. So ROTJ Luke X 2 = At least as strong as NJO Luke.

Is ROTJ is half as good as NJO Luke, NJO Luke must really suck. I think you are taking his words out of context; if he said half-trained jedi, this doesn't mean half-trained altogether. Jedi is NOT equal to jedi master. In ROTJ, Luke was earning his right to be a jedi. If he was even half of NJO Luke (Who is a virtual Force god) then he would have been strong enough to oppose Sidious then, and strong enough to oppose the reborn Emperor in the DE series. But he wasn't. He never showed any ability on par with even half of NJO Luke, and he didn't show any ability that would beat Anakin from AOTC. Period.


Hey. Listen to George Lucas. Guess what buddy. He's the creater of Star Wars. Whatever he says goes. Deal with it.

Uh huh. You never did prove half of your so-called GL statements.


Anakin fought hordes of genonsians and lost. So he took out 30 or 40 Tuskens. Big deal. So he held his own against Dooku for nearly a minute. Luke beat Vader. And Luke didn't barely beat jabba's crew. He had no trouble with them. And it'd take a strong Jedi to take out all of Jabba's crew.
'

And this right here is championing Luke and downplaying Anakin horribly. "it'd take a strong jedi to take out Jabba's crew." Seriously... TPM Obi-Wan could annihilate that entire sail barge. Less than a dozen had blasters.

aotc would butcher him, he killed thousands of droids and genosians as well as an entire village of sand raiders, luke killed some wannabe thugs and an asthmatic half dead robot. Luuke's swordsmanship was far weaker then anakins and he had less then half anakins raw power maybe 80% at best, luke never does anything THAT impressive until NJO and njo is both annoying and crap.

Janus, I have supplied proof that he said this. What more do you want?

Janus, I have provided proof out of GL's own mouth. Want to continue debating? Then do me a favor and debate with Lucas.

From the movies? I have posted plenty from the movies. Luke took out all of Jabba's guards. Anakin got defeated by a group of measley Geonosians. Anakin didn't last a minute against Tyranus and had Obi-Wan not been there wouldn't have even gotten a chance to clash sabers with him. Luke beat Vader. If that isn't enough for you GL's quotes provide proof. Deal with it. Suck it up. Learn the truth.

Nah, that'd make him stronger than Sidious.

Jedi is anything from Youngling to Master. Yoda is a Jedi. Luke is a Jedi. Zett Jukesta is a Jedi. A fully trained Jedi would be Jeid at his full potential, whether it be Master or Knight. Jedi doesn't mean jedi Knight Jedi means Jedi.

A Jedi Knight. All Jedi under training are considered Jedi.

At least 1/2 as strong as NJO Luke. And he was obviously not as strong as Sidious yet.

WTF are you talking about? Look at my replies!

Obi-Wan? Maybe. And where's the proof that leff than a dozen had blasters?

I don't think you get just what proving up is.


Janus, I have supplied proof that he said this. What more do you want?

Proof in the definition of the word. All you say is "GL says". But no citing. For all I know, you could be bullshitting entirely and just saying GL said it to lend it false credibility.


Janus, I have provided proof out of GL's own mouth. Want to continue debating? Then do me a favor and debate with Lucas.

Read the above statement. You haven't "provided" anything. You just say GL said it and expect everyone to believe you. If you want to lend credibility to your stance, provide proof. Cite sources. If you can't, why should we believe you?


From the movies? I have posted plenty from the movies. Luke took out all of Jabba's guards. Anakin got defeated by a group of measley Geonosians. Anakin didn't last a minute against Tyranus and had Obi-Wan not been there wouldn't have even gotten a chance to clash sabers with him. Luke beat Vader. If that isn't enough for you GL's quotes provide proof. Deal with it. Suck it up. Learn the truth.

Suck it up? Please. Don't act so self righteous. It bores me.

First off, Anakin was surrounded by battle droids, was saberless by circumstance, and Padme was already captured. Hardly being "defeated by a group of measley Geonosians." But nice try.

Second, Luke defeated Vader who was his father and it was a conflicted, unresolved battle. Luke didn't beat Vader with superior skill or superior Force powers. He beat on him with his lightsaber like it was a bat. I've already ranted about this and anything more would be wasted breath on you, really. Luke beating Vader doesn't make him good enough to waste AOTC Anakin. We all saw that fight. Nothing's hidden there. If anything, it's seemingly obvious that vader was fueling his son's hate and throwing the fight. If you want clarification on this, i'll be happy to post you another essay.


Nah, that'd make him stronger than Sidious.

Jedi is anything from Youngling to Master. Yoda is a Jedi. Luke is a Jedi. Zett Jukesta is a Jedi. A fully trained Jedi would be Jeid at his full potential, whether it be Master or Knight. Jedi doesn't mean jedi Knight Jedi means Jedi.

Yeah, a jedi is a jedi, whether padawan learner or master. But you're adding your own interpretation of GL's comments when you say that ROTJ Luke is half of NJO Luke. The most amusing part is that how much you claim to cling to and respect GL's word, you don't even understand that NJO Luke is -nothing- like what GL had ever intended for the Star Wars series. NJO Luke's powers border on the ridiculous. And no NJO books are written by GL. So how can you apply his word to someone else's interpretation of his creation? Non sequitor.



A Jedi Knight. All Jedi under training are considered Jedi.

At least 1/2 as strong as NJO Luke. And he was obviously not as strong as Sidious yet.

I just covered this. GL has never mentioned nor implied NJO Luke in his interviews. If he has, you need to prove up since you are claiming otherwise. And if you're trying to tie-in GL's word with NJO Luke, you're way off base. Anyone with a bit of sense will tell you that NJO Luke is so far ridiculous and overpowered that he is easily borderline noncanon.


WTF are you talking about? Look at my replies!

I look. What do you think I reply to? Certainly not my imagination.


Obi-Wan? Maybe. And where's the proof that leff than a dozen had blasters?

This is simple: did you see more? Do you have an accurate count? If there was more than a dozen, I'd be seriously surprised.

I say Luke wins

Why?

Second, Luke defeated Vader who was his father and it was a conflicted, unresolved battle. Luke didn't beat Vader with superior skill or superior Force powers. He beat on him with his lightsaber like it was a bat. I've already ranted about this and anything more would be wasted breath on you, really. Luke beating Vader doesn't make him good enough to waste AOTC Anakin. We all saw that fight. Nothing's hidden there. If anything, it's seemingly obvious that vader was fueling his son's hate and throwing the fight. If you want clarification on this, i'll be happy to post you another essay.

You say Darth Vader didn't want to win? So what was he supposed to do then? Fight until forever? Or let his son kill him?

But besides that Anakin takes this fight.

Vader was more or less ordered to do the Emperor's bidding. That's proven by the fact that Vader defended the Emperor from Luke's blade. It's no secret that Vader hates the Emperor and wishes to overthrow him. But without Luke as his ally, he obeys his master's wishes blindly.

I thought you were referring to the fact that Luke defeated Vader in ROTJ

Originally posted by Dark Aristokrat
Why?


I dunno