Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

An interesting question came up today when I was debating with my global perspectives teacher. I was questioning him about how if someone was to find an island, and mark it as their own country. Then they would have their own government and people. They would make their own laws and do whatever, and stay out of every other countries business. But what would happen If the leader of the country was too murder everyone for a crime they all commited. It was here my teacher said that the united nations would have to put a stop to your crimes against humanity. and I said "well its my own country, and everyone agreed to my laws. It's acceptable" and then he said "So was the Holocaust acceptable in your eyes?"

So what do you guys think? We all know the Holocaust was TERRIBLE. It was indeed a crime against humanity, but was it technically acceptable? I don't know if I'm stepping on any toes here, and I am DEFINITELY not siding with Hitler. But what do u all think?

I think you have done a good job in asking the question. There is law, but law is not an end to it's self. What I mean is; there is a greater right in this world. Those people on the outside can stop you because, this kind of thing, in the past, has not stopped at the border of one country, but has gone over borders and killed many people of other nations. The right to self preservation and to live is a higher right than law.

No, to any rational mind the Holocaust is as far away from acceptable as you can possibly get.

Originally posted by BackFire
No, to any rational mind the Holocaust is as far away from acceptable as you can possibly get.

What do you mean?

A. Talking about the Holocaust.
B. The Holocaust it's self.

If you say A: I disagree. We need to talk about it and never forget it.
If you say B: I agree with you. We should insure it never happens again.

What? Talking about it is fine, of course.

It's occurance however, was not.

Government is supposed to be for the good of the people, when the ruler is not just, he is not fit to rule.

But whos to say how somebody should be ruled?

Originally posted by TheQuincy
But whos to say how somebody should be ruled?

We.

You should've counterd your teacher's response with "So what makes the UN any better then America?"

If it's true that when crimes that hanus are commited the United Nations has a right to police the world, why doesn't The United STATES have that right? We're just as powerful as the U.N. all on our lonesome..

The question loops back on itself. It suggests that the global community has no right to interfere with the decisions of a democractically elected Government, no matter how evil they are.

It forgets that the only thing that gives a democratically elected Government any moral right to be so left alone is not some universal force, but the consensus of that very same international community. It is only because people of the world tend to approve of democracy that such Governments are approved. That same community disapproves of genocide, hence intervention is warranted.

So aside from the morality of it- which is obvious- a genocide is wrong and should be stopped- the sheer practicality is that you have no grounds to claim that because you are elected you should not be stopped by others, because your form of Government is not the end of the equation.

Nothing magic about democracy other than the way people view it. Go beyond the pale in another manner, and the same potential penalties apply.

The reason the US doesn't have the right is simple- it was agreed after WWII that no country should have the right to unilateral action in global affairs.

Hitler made up his own rules, and his own laws from his from his perception that the Jews were evil...He used great propaganda...And with Hitler there were no more elections....So...can people vote this guy out the next time around?

Originally posted by TheQuincy
But whos to say how somebody should be ruled?

The people..

Originally posted by Spelljammer
You should've counterd your teacher's response with "So what makes the UN any better then America?"

If it's true that when crimes that hanus are commited the United Nations has a right to police the world, why doesn't The United STATES have that right? We're just as powerful as the U.N. all on our lonesome..

that isn't exactly the greatest rebuttle spell. And lets not get egotisticle, i know if i wasn't from the United states, and I was from any other nation or country, i'd hate the u.s.

An imposition of law is not the same as an agreed acceptance of law; therein lies the difference.

maybe because UN aint a country but a "collection" of most countries in the world that vote on certain issues such as actions to be taken toward these things in question here , unlike US who acts on its own regardless what opinion the rest of the world have.
And being powerful have nothing to do with it at all. Power is the tool of oppression used to force their ways uppon others

Surely the holocaust was simply the mentality on which the US was founded (taking land from the mongoloid inhabitants) taken to its logical extension (start eliminating ethnic competition)?

well........yeah.......

I'm personally sick of everybody referring to the German's genocide against Hebrews as THE holocaust..........when the Europeans began their genocide against the Natives of the Americas hundres of years earlier and resulted in much more death and destruction. What happened in Germany was child's play compared to what happened in the Americas.

Then again........I guess it is looked at as being so important because some Europeans were being killed and not millions upon millions of savages.

and the yanks took the relay stick there and continued the job

Survival of the fittest and exercise of power is a natural thing without which nothing would have existed - eat or be eaten is the law of nature - it can't be evil or bad, because everything functions according to that.

Originally posted by Wonderer
Survival of the fittest and exercise of power is a natural thing without which nothing would have existed - eat or be eaten is the law of nature - it can't be evil or bad, because everything functions according to that.
Don't go greying up evil again, won't tolerate it, a cat's a cat, it can be said in differant languages, but a cat is not a dog, period.

What happend was wrong, very very wrong. Yes, good stuff happend ultimately, but then again SOMETHING good has to happen out of everything. But that doesn't change the fact that is was terribly evil. Last time I checked animals don't commit mass genocide to survive..

Killing one or more makes no difference. Who told you it's bad to kill?

Originally posted by Wonderer
Killing one or more makes no difference. Who told you it's bad to kill?
It's not what you do, it's why you do it, it always has been and always will be. Stop trying to blur the lines.

Animals kill you survive, they don't kill for fun or for some sense of pride like man does. If anything man has proven itself on many occassions to be worse then an animal though they proclaim to be better. But if you think you're no better then an animal, then what the hell are you doing on the computer spouting stupid incoherent messages that don't apply to real life instead of hunting an elk or something? Go run naked in the woods, see how long you survive.

If you can't survive long, you've proven you're a human.
Now being human, you're going to accept the responsibilities of being sentinent and responsible. Thus, you're going to accept morality. Capish?

morality according to whom? a christian view on it a muslim view on it or others view on morality?

Originally posted by finti
morality according to whom? a christian view on it a muslim view on it or others view on morality?
Again, stop bluring the lines. Ethnics come and go, but ceartain morale is forever.

It's well established murder is wrong.
It's well establised rejection of God and all His incarnations is wrong.

You claim to know about those religons and yet you've probably never even read ANYTHING about them. If you did, you'd know they speak of the same basic princaples.

Yes, one says God "Allah" and the other "Jehova", but sacla-blu, you still get the same damn cat/dog issue..

It's not going to work that whole "question morality" thing, because when you start to question morality, you start to question people, and when you have to question people, what's to stop you from killing them wether out of fear or lack of any sortof restraint?

Which creates anarchy, which would be Hell on Earth. It's that sortof thinking that creates the devil and all that mess. Not God, not Allah, that stupid idea that morality is relative..

everyone accepts the laws of the land?...i didn't realise the jews accepted the laws which got them wiped out

in fact i didn't even realise that there were written laws allowing the slaughter of the jews and other minorities (11 million in the camps alone)

what a load of crap, wrong only to those who believe in such ways not to others

and the death penalty comes in under what moral motto then

Originally posted by finti
and the death penalty comes in under what moral motto then
Oh yes cause soooo many people die on capital punishment.. : \

Be realistic will you? Oh wait you can't or else we wouldn't be having this argument in the first place!

You know what? Forget it. I don't know who you're trying to convince that you or any other hyporitical person who thinks like that is a preserver of life. Unless it's yourself. You try to tell me that you love life, yet you find another way to kill life.

Wether it's conservatives with thier funding of goverment weapons, finding new ways to sorround us with bombs and paranoia.

Or with liberals trying to blur the lines of right and wrong so we can kill children and gut them for some sortof sck pleasure that we disguise as science.

It's the same wrong cat no matter how you slice it. And frankly, I've said before I am not pro-death penalty. I believe all prisoners should be sent to a island seperate from us, where they can live and fend for themself. All they need is basic supplies, trust me, if you had to farm and plow fields, you'd learn mighty quickly to respect God's work. And I don't mean God as in, Lord Jehova or Allah, as you seem to enjoy accusing me of, I mean God, The Great Spirit. Which resides in all matter. Damnit man, even doped up heavy metal artists have more sense then internet posters sometimes..

if you add them up around the world you come to that close to 4000 was killed due to capital punishment and that is those we know about

yeah this comming from one who speaks of him self in third person cause he thinks its artistic riiiiiiiiight, regardless what you call god as long you look at a god as one who reside all matter it goes for the same either you call this deity allah, lord, jehova

Originally posted by Spelljammer
It's well establised rejection of God and all His incarnations is wrong. Oh that wasn't a joke...

The American Natives were given false hope and tricked...they sold their land for beads and thought they got the better deal, cause "Who could own the land?"...Like owning the sky....It can't be owned...little did they know what they were up against...some conformed and still were sent off to new reservations...others fought back and died...It was a kind of Holocaust, but really quite different...very different...The white man just wanted the land...though yes they were referred to as savages because of their beliefs, but many did convert also...Still they were hated my many..They could of all lived together...The Cherokees tried...

The difference for much of the deaths is that the Natives fought back...They were proud people...The Jews didn't..They prayed and hoped....


For the Jews it wasn't about the land at all...It was because of Hatred of their race....and trying to wipe them out all together...and not just the jews, but inferior races also...only leaving the pure race....sometimes it was even an eye color thing...

Originally posted by Wonderer
Survival of the fittest and exercise of power is a natural thing without which nothing would have existed - eat or be eaten is the law of nature - it can't be evil or bad, because everything functions according to that.

I don't look at people in this way...

you have been miseducated in the subject debbiejo.....but then again, what can one expect from public school systems, history is written by the winners.

I'm not simply talking about American settlers heading west.......making war with the people to secure land. I'm talking from 1492 onward. Not one European expedition to the "new world" happened without the slaughter of natives. Christopher Columbus was so great wasn't he........how many natives did he kill on his first trek? It didn't matter which nation or tribe Europeans came across.........they were different so they were killed. Even those who helped European explorers and later settlers were killed.

you seem to be referring to the expansion in the 1800s........overlooking 400 years of genocide.



get off your horse and read up on the subject. Animals kill for many reasons. They kill for food. They kill for territory. They kill for breeding rights.

you said it yourself, man is no better than other animals. Man is an animal iteslf. There is no wrong reason to kill. Every animal that exist on this earth survives to procreate. Every other animal of the same species that lives lessens the chance of it's procreation......many animals kills simply to increase the odds that their seed will be passed on to the next generation instead of another animal's of the same species.

the most obvious example would be a lion. Lion's live together in families consisting of several females and one or two males. Any other male that crosses their path they attempt to kill. That's one less male lion to breed with females..........increasing the dominant lion's chances of passing on his seed.

since man is no better, why would it not be just as appropriate for any man to kill any other man on sight..........simply to decrease the competition? That's natural selection........survival of the fittest. The strong live on to pass their genes to the next generation while the weaker die.

There is naturally no wrong reason to kill. "wrong" itself is a man-made concept.......a bi-product civilization which is anything but natural. Any reason "wrong" or "right" to do anything is simple hogwash made up by man in attempt for a peaceful society. This is why man will never get along with each other. It's not natural. We are animals with animal instincts. Killing is one of those instincts......it is as natural as eating or procreating.

Originally posted by Evil Dead

you seem to be referring to the expansion in the 1800s........overlooking 400 years of genocide.


You're right...that is what I was referring to....

So what do you guys think? Could it be that the holocaust was acceptable?

Originally posted by TheQuincy
So what do you guys think? Could it be that the holocaust was acceptable?

No, not any of the holocausts that have ever happened. All it does is set the human race back. We loose so much, so many talented people who could have made this world a better place to live.

NO NO NO NO.....What if I had lived at that time....I have brown eyes.

Not the pure race...

To those discussing morals, nothing is really wrong in this world...theft is just the stealing of ones material possessions that one will lose when he/she dies anyways, abuse is demeaning/painful to the victim but this is again just negative sensory input...over the years how many organisms have faced pain? Countless beings have been brutalized by eachother but wounds heal, it matters not. Even murder has no meaning, all things die why does it matter if you die now or later? People are spoiled, they think natural things to be "tragedies". Still, being a moral person makes it easier for everyone, if you have to do something you might as well be moral. That is why mankind should structure itself to overcome nature and be rid of unmoral tendencies. Although I realize the unimportance of such things, Im not going to kid myself into thinking I wouldnt rather live a life of ease living with morally good people than all the pain and suffering of say a slaves life. We are intelligent beings and as such our goal should be that no one has to experience the negative things in life...So in other words we should use our intelligence to make life conform to us instead of us conforming to life. Our founding fathers realized this and made our wonderful government of freedom and equality, which is ofcourse by no stretch of the imagination perfect, but it is a step in the right direction.

Disregard that last post...it sounds kinda retarded after I reread it...I wont edit it out incase somone wants to read it though.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Disregard that last post...it sounds kinda retarded after I reread it...I wont edit it out incase somone wants to read it though.

Your statement is relevant. It's that kind of thinking; taken to its logical conclusion that has allowed people to kill millions. We have a choice, we can say that life is meaningless, or we can realize that we are the judge of the value life has.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
we are the judge of the value life has.

Very good point.

I know my point is relevent, its just that I havent myself experienced the horrors some people have experienced, so it is foolish for me to judge these people without first hand experience.

Originally posted by TheQuincy
An interesting question came up today when I was debating with my global perspectives teacher. I was questioning him about how if someone was to find an island, and mark it as their own country. Then they would have their own government and people. They would make their own laws and do whatever, and stay out of every other countries business. But what would happen If the leader of the country was too murder everyone for a crime they all commited. It was here my teacher said that the united nations would have to put a stop to your crimes against humanity. and I said "well its my own country, and everyone agreed to my laws. It's acceptable" and then he said "So was the Holocaust acceptable in your eyes?"

So what do you guys think? We all know the Holocaust was TERRIBLE. It was indeed a crime against humanity, but was it technically acceptable? I don't know if I'm stepping on any toes here, and I am DEFINITELY not siding with Hitler. But what do u all think?

There is a problem in what you say over here:

First you say "If someone found a country" then you add that they would have the're own country and laws.

Who are 'THEY' ?

Where do you get 'THEM' from ? Is it like it was in Australia when there was a call for people to inhabit the land?

If So you are involving people from other nations there, doing that, you will be required by the country that is AIDING with your development to make a protocol.

Now as soon as you involve others in your country's affairs, you automatically involve other countries cause their own citizens have contributed to the Islands welfare.

You need these foreigners to have them to build, to grow/import food, to make the laws, to organise an infrastructre that is suitable to host and maintain them as well as the founder or discoverer of the self-proclaimed country otherwise the only way i see people living there is by Adam and Eve distribution.

Firstly, no-one is going to live there if the Discoverer made a law that he can create a holocaust.

Secondly, when you have people from other countries in that Island, the discoverer cannot simply decide to Holocaust every single being on that Island cause he will surely face a retaliation from a country that has contributed to that Islands civil infrastructure.

Thirdly, its a bit difficult to keep the people living on that Island there if they know that they are going to be killed 'for a crime they commited' which frankly i can see no connection with 'Holocaust'

Originally posted by GCG
There is a problem in what you say over here:

First you say "If someone found a country" then you add that they would have the're own country and laws.

Who are 'THEY' ?

Where do you get 'THEM' from ? Is it like it was in Australia when there was a call for people to inhabit the land?

If So you are involving people from other nations there, doing that, you will be required by the country that is AIDING with your development to make a protocol.

Now as soon as you involve others in your country's affairs, you automatically involve other countries cause their own citizens have contributed to the Islands welfare.

You need these foreigners to have them to build, to grow/import food, to make the laws, to organise an infrastructre that is suitable to host and maintain them as well as the founder or discoverer of the self-proclaimed country otherwise the only way i see people living there is by Adam and Eve distribution.

Firstly, no-one is going to live there if the Discoverer made a law that he can create a holocaust.

Secondly, when you have people from other countries in that Island, the discoverer cannot simply decide to Holocaust every single being on that Island cause he will surely face a retaliation from a country that has contributed to that Islands civil infrastructure.

Thirdly, its a bit difficult to keep the people living on that Island there if they know that they are going to be killed 'for a crime they commited' which frankly i can see no connection with 'Holocaust'

This person who is in control of this country, is crazy. The countrymen settle for 2 hours when all of a sudden he murders everyone for breaking a bogus law. Could he get away with it? and your answer, didn't help much.

Originally posted by TheQuincy
An interesting question came up today when I was debating with my global perspectives teacher. I was questioning him about how if someone was to find an island, and mark it as their own country. Then they would have their own government and people. They would make their own laws and do whatever, and stay out of every other countries business. But what would happen If the leader of the country was too murder everyone for a crime they all commited. It was here my teacher said that the united nations would have to put a stop to your crimes against humanity. and I said "well its my own country, and everyone agreed to my laws. It's acceptable" and then he said "So was the Holocaust acceptable in your eyes?"

So what do you guys think? We all know the Holocaust was TERRIBLE. It was indeed a crime against humanity, but was it technically acceptable? I don't know if I'm stepping on any toes here, and I am DEFINITELY not siding with Hitler. But what do u all think? how is killing all the people living in some country a good thing?
i agree with your teacher. it would be genocide.

There are different approaches.....

By Law it can be justified.......by morals it can too...it actually goes either way....since I believe there is no superior force that lays down morals on us...one can actually say from some point of views the Holocaust was justified.....

But there were indeed laws passed that allowed the persecution of Jews

Originally posted by PVS
exactly. they empowered a racist leader and welcomed the persecution of jews. they didnt know they were being gassed? superficial...a very poor excuse. history shows that once the population accepts persecution of a group, then that persecution will know no limits.

ignorance is no excuse.

Yeah well......and there indeed were multiple Underground Resistance against the Regime.....

Originally posted by Bardock42
But there were indeed laws passed that allowed the persecution of Jews

Not only allowed it...encouraged it.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Not only allowed it...encouraged it.

Well yes of course..that's not the point though...that they were passed is in my opinion bad enough.....of course the governent also organised it...but that'S a different thing.....

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well yes of course..that's not the point though...that they were passed is in my opinion bad enough.....of course the governent also organised it...but that'S a different thing.....

Don't take my comment personally. In fact, I have a hard time understanding why so many Germans are embarrased by the holocaust, when they weren't even alive when it happened. I'm not really accusing you, but I'd say it was time to stop apologizing.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Don't take my comment personally. In fact, I have a hard time understanding why so many Germans are embarrased by the holocaust, when they weren't even alive when it happened. I'm not really accusing you, but I'd say it was time to stop apologizing.

I really don't want to apologize...as you said I did not have anything to do with it...I was just answering the post of Bicnarok.

JUST APPOLOGISE BARDOCK!!!!










j/k

Originally posted by PVS
JUST APPOLOGISE BARDOCK!!!!










j/k

Later.....first


(Brian and Stewie are on a German tour bus.)
German Tour Guide: You vill find more on Germany's contributions to ze arts in ze pamphlets ve have provided.
Brian : Yeah, about your pamphlet... uh, I'm not seeing anything about German history between 1939 and 1945. There's just a big gap.
Tour guide: Everyone vas on vacation. On your left is Munich's first city hall, erected in 15...
Brian : Wait, what are you talking about? Germany invaded Poland in 1939 and...
Tour Guide: We were invited. Punch vas served. Check vit Poland.
Brian : You can't just ignore those years. Thomas Mann fled to America because of Nazism's stranglehold on Germany.
Tour guide: Nope, nope. He left to manage a Dairy Queen.
Brian : A Dairy Queen? That's preposterous.
Tour guide: I vill hear no more insinuations about the German people. Nothing bad happened. Sie werden sich hinsetzen. Sie werden ruhig sein. Sie werden nicht beleidigen Deutschland. You will sit down. You will shut up. You will not insult Germany. (Throws his hand up in a Hitler salute.)
Brian : Uh, is that a beer hall?
Tour guide: (Snapping out of it) Oh yes, Munich is renowned for its historic beer halls.


now..I am sorry that my people killed all the jews......but we still kicked Frances ass...that has to be worth something....

Your people didn't kill anyone man, they're not YOURS. They are people from your country.

I don't understand patriotism as it is, let alone insisting that you were in SOME way responsible for what Hitler did.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Your people didn't kill anyone man, they're not YOURS. They are people from your country.

I don't understand patriotism as it is, let alone insisting that you were in SOME way responsible for what Hitler did.

-AC

Oh god...I need so many walls to bang my heads on it's not even funny....it was a joke......god......

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh god...I need so many walls to bang my heads on it's not even funny....it was a joke......god......

dont mind AC i guess the new crop of 'special' fungus has just hit the market

Originally posted by PVS
dont mind AC i guess the new crop of 'special' fungus has just hit the market

i think he just likes to promote his opinion......I should know....I do too....by the way...I have an opinion...it rocks

only one opinion?

Originally posted by PVS
only one opinion?

Yes only one...and it's the best in the world.........

Originally posted by TheQuincy
An interesting question came up today when I was debating with my global perspectives teacher. I was questioning him about how if someone was to find an island, and mark it as their own country. Then they would have their own government and people. They would make their own laws and do whatever, and stay out of every other countries business. But what would happen If the leader of the country was too murder everyone for a crime they all commited. It was here my teacher said that the united nations would have to put a stop to your crimes against humanity. and I said "well its my own country, and everyone agreed to my laws. It's acceptable" and then he said "So was the Holocaust acceptable in your eyes?"

So what do you guys think? We all know the Holocaust was TERRIBLE. It was indeed a crime against humanity, but was it technically acceptable? I don't know if I'm stepping on any toes here, and I am DEFINITELY not siding with Hitler. But what do u all think?

As a gypsy I find your post extremely offensive

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
As a gypsy I find your post extremely offensive

Good Lord.....either find it offensive or not.....what has your Gypsy part to do with it......

Oh and it'S not like he's saying that he agrees but bringing up an interesting question......so in conclusion stop being whiny, Whirly.....

Originally posted by PVS
dont mind AC i guess the new crop of 'special' fungus has just hit the market

You got the new batch yet? Duuuuuuude, really.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You got the new batch yet? Duuuuuuude, really.

-AC

actually no. word on the street is you cornered the market

Originally posted by Bardock42
Good Lord.....either find it offensive or not.....what has your Gypsy part to do with it......

Oh and it'S not like he's saying that he agrees but bringing up an interesting question......so in conclusion stop being whiny, Whirly.....

Well the germans marched us into gas chambers and said that we were inferior, they turned our skin into lampshades and our hair into ropes, they did the same with the jews and many other "sub humans". I guess thats what its about Bardock, I guess they were just following orders.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Well the germans marched us into gas chambers and said that we were inferior, they turned our skin into lampshades and our hair into ropes, they did the same with the jews and many other "sub humans". I guess thats what its about Bardock, I guess they were just following orders.

Oh yes....now I see....wait...what does his post have to do with thee actual deed.....oh and more...why do you have to especially state that you feel that way because of being a gypsy....like other people can't feel the way......

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh yes....now I see....wait...what does his post have to do with thee actual deed.....oh and more...why do you have to especially state that you feel that way because of being a gypsy....like other people can't feel the way......

maybe because i identify myself as part of one of the ethnic groups who were tortured and murdered by the germans - the final solution (disgusting)

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
maybe because i identify myself as part of one of the ethnic groups who were tortured and murdered by the germans - the final solution (disgusting)

Ah I see....and that gives you the right to exagerate everything?....I really don't think so.....

Originally posted by PVS
actually no. word on the street is you cornered the market

There are words on the street? Duuuuude, cool.

-AC

Originally posted by Bardock42
Ah I see....and that gives you the right to exagerate everything?....I really don't think so.....
exagerate what? Lampshades were made from my peoples skin, how can you defend that, ever since the Romany left india we have been persecuted, murdered, abused and used as slaves. The worst crimes were from the SS during the holocaust. Lampshades - Rope - My people

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Well the germans marched us into gas chambers and said that we were inferior, they turned our skin into lampshades and our hair into ropes, they did the same with the jews and many other "sub humans". I guess thats what its about Bardock, I guess they were just following orders. they were making soap of human fat too...


really.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
exagerate what? Lampshades were made from my peoples skin, how can you defend that, ever since the Romany left india we have been persecuted, murdered, abused and used as slaves. The worst crimes were from the SS during the holocaust. Lampshades - Rope - My people

Who's defending anything?

And the acts don't have anything to do with the theory mentioned by the Thread Starter.

Originally posted by Clovie
they were making soap of human fat too...


really.

Like in Fight Club

Originally posted by Clovie
they were making soap of human fat too...


really.

Its all in ploand for all to see

actually bardock, they are correct about the 'recycling' of victims.
they started doing that toward the end.

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.denktag.de/denktag2002/denktag2002/77_Remember/images/bildergalerie/gefangene-auschwitz.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.denktag.de/denktag2002/denktag2002/77_Remember/bildergalerie.html&h=337&w=416&sz=63&tbnid=8JYPHurRRnYJ:&tbnh=98&tbnw=122&hl=en&start=4&prev=/ images%3Fq%3Dauschwitz%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr
%3D%26sa%3DN

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Its all in ploand for all to see I live in Poland. and there is a concentration camp museum here. and i don't wanna go there ever again.

Originally posted by PVS
actually bardock, they are correct about the 'recycling' of victims.
they started doing that toward the end.
Yes indeed they did

Originally posted by PVS
actually bardock, they are correct about the 'recycling' of victims.
they started doing that toward the end.

Actually I never doubted that....I am just saying it is not in anyway a necessary fact for this thread.

Originally posted by Clovie
I live in Poland. and there is a concentration camp museum here. and i don't wanna go there ever again.
I have never been my cousin went he is a hard man, he cried

Originally posted by Bardock42
Actually I never doubted that....I am just saying it is not in anyway a necessary fact for this thread.

I feel its the whole point, international law has a right to protect victims of ethnic cleansing - humanity must never forget what the germans did.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I feel its the whole point, international law has a right to protect victims of ethnic cleansing - humanity must never forget what the germans did. and soviets and they're pretending nothing happened.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I feel its the whole point, international law has a right to protect victims of ethnic cleansing - humanity must never forget what the germans did.
the question though is...was it from a legal standpoint justified.......and even more could it even be from a moral standpoint be justified? It's really not aboot what is the Standard today, and although i agree it should never be forgotten it is totally irrelevant for this topic.

Originally posted by Bardock42
the question though is...was it from a legal standpoint justified.......and even more could it even be from a moral standpoint be justified? It's really not aboot what is the Standard today, and although i agree it should never be forgotten it is totally irrelevant for this topic.

Your post makes no sense - people were turned into rope, lampshades and soap - justified are you trying to justify it Bardock? I expect better from you.

Originally posted by Clovie
and soviets and they're pretending nothing happened.

true enough are you polish Clovie

Originally posted by Evil Dead
well........yeah.......

I'm personally sick of everybody referring to the German's genocide against Hebrews as THE holocaust..........when the Europeans began their genocide against the Natives of the Americas hundres of years earlier and resulted in much more death and destruction. What happened in Germany was child's play compared to what happened in the Americas.

Then again........I guess it is looked at as being so important because some Europeans were being killed and not millions upon millions of savages. Agreed...

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
true enough are you polish Clovie it's a question?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Agreed...

As do I but the gypsies and Jews were not Europeans. Gypsies have been enslaved for thousands of years, it was legal to shoot us in France until a hundred years ago

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Your post makes no sense - people were turned into rope, lampshades and soap - justified are you trying to justify it Bardock? I expect better from you.

Oh god there are just not enough Brick Walls in this world......

Again Sweetheart.....I don't want to justify it, I get no pleasure fro justifying it...the question is can it be Justified...which it obviously can.....if you don't believe in absolute morals and cannot if you do......

The fact that people might or might not have been turned into Shoe Soap or whatsoever is not important to the case.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Your post makes no sense - people were turned into rope, lampshades and soap - justified are you trying to justify it Bardock? I expect better from you.

Actually it does...

Can we justify the murder of thousands of people by law - Answer yes.

Can we justify moraly. Yes otherwise it would never have happened.

International law is irrelivant here. Brutal muders and slaughters have happened thousands of times, this time on this specific case would not be any different and it should not be seen as such. If the people do it then its justified in their own eyes.

Can we justify it using our morale? Well depends on what you consider right and wrong. For instance if you are for the death Penalty then yes you can even justify the destruction of an iland, if you are against all kinds of murders then no you can not justify it. You could never justify kiling somebody. However you could show them that you had no choice. It maybe not be justified, but still accepted.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh god there are just not enough Brick Walls in this world......

Again Sweetheart.....I don't want to justify it, I get no pleasure fro justifying it...the question is can it be Justified...which it obviously can.....if you don't believe in absolute morals and cannot if you do......

The fact that people might or might not have been turned into Shoe Soap or whatsoever is not important to the case.

I feel it is the case

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I feel it is the case

Its obviously not... It wasn't the question that was asked, the question was if it was or could be justified.

It was and could be.

Not because of our standards but other people have other standards and feel differently.

Originally posted by Fishy
Actually it does...

Can we justify the murder of thousands of people by law - Answer yes.

Can we justify moraly. Yes otherwise it would never have happened.

International law is irrelivant here. Brutal muders and slaughters have happened thousands of times, this time on this specific case would not be any different and it should not be seen as such. If the people do it then its justified in their own eyes.

Can we justify it using our morale? Well depends on what you consider right and wrong. For instance if you are for the death Penalty then yes you can even justify the destruction of an iland, if you are against all kinds of murders then no you can not justify it. You could never justify kiling somebody. However you could show them that you had no choice. It maybe not be justified, but still accepted.

sorry you miss the point

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I feel it is the case

Well you may feel that way, but it just isn't.....

As for Fishy...I agree with you.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
sorry you miss the point

Someone here indeed is missing the point, but it's not Fishy....

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well you may feel that way, but it just isn't.....

As for Fishy...I agree with you.

We have a habit of agreeing with each other in these kinds of discussions, so that doesn't come as a surprise

and with these posts you lose the right to talk to me and almost lose your humanity.

You miss the point of crimes against humanity and try to justify the unjustifiable.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
and with these posts you lose the right to talk to me and almost lose your humanity.

You miss the point of crimes against humanity and try to justify the unjustifiable.

Not a big loss in my opinion.

Well but crimes agains humanity are relative too....everything is justifyable....you are just very emotionally connected to the Case...and I don't blame you, I can understand it...but if we are just talking aboot the topic there*s no need for emotional rantings.....just cold hard facts.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
and with these posts you lose the right to talk to me and almost lose your humanity.

You miss the point of crimes against humanity and try to justify the unjustifiable.

How so? Becuase I realise that they are justified in the opinion of some?

Do you honestly think that Hitler would have done what he did if he could not justify it to himself? Do you think any of the highest Nazi's would have? Any of the lower one's would have? Do you think anybody would have? Of course not. They justified their actions they justifed their murders their crimes. It was their damn choice.

How the hell does that make me lose my humanity? I never said I agreed with it, did I? I don't. But at least i'm not lying to myself, at least I realise that people had their reasons and will always have their reasons.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Not a big loss in my opinion.

Well but crimes agains humanity are relative too....everything is justifyable....you are just very emotionally connected to the Case...and I don't blame you, I can understand it...but if we are just talking aboot the topic there*s no need for emotional rantings.....just cold hard facts.

Which I have given you cannot make someone into a lampshade and attempt to justify it, by doing so you become inhuman.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Which I have given you cannot make someone into a lampshade and attempt to justify it, by doing so you become inhuman.

But you can...that is the thing we are talking aboot...the Nazis were able to.....

Originally posted by Bardock42
But you can...that is the thing we are talking aboot...the Nazis were able to.....

Exactly, its obviously possible otherwise it would never have happened.

Doesn't mean I can justify it with my morales just means it can be justified.

Originally posted by Bardock42
But you can...that is the thing we are talking aboot...the Nazis were able to.....

No they were not, thats why the rest of the world united and beat them down, because what they were doing was inhuman, they then prosecuted them for barbaric behaviour under international law, the same is happening in Serbia now, the same happened in Uganda, Somalia and Cambodia. It is not justifiable and never can be.

As soon as you start thinking that way it opens the door to more. Its seems somepeople learnt nothing from these examples.

True Evil cannot be justified

whirley, i believe what they are trying to say is that in the minds of the nazis all the way up to hitler, it was justified.

it all stems from the classic arguement "does anyone knowingly do evil"

this arguement is basically saying 'no'. they WERE committing evil, but in their own warped logic, it was justifiable. the same way a crackhead/junkie sees the act of robbing their own parents as justifiable. its all about mindset.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
No they were not, thats why the rest of the world united and beat them down, because what they were doing was inhuman, they then prosecuted them for barbaric behaviour under international law, the same is happening in Serbia now, the same happened in Uganda, Somalia and Cambodia. It is not justifiable and never can be.

As soon as you start thinking that way it opens the door to more. Its seems somepeople learnt nothing from these examples.

True Evil cannot be justified

There is no True Evil.....

Second the world did not only unite because it was aghainst their orals but also for many other reasons...but that's not the point......the US (for example) entered the war for similar reasons Germany killed Gypsies and Jews......because they were able to justify it to themself....

Originally posted by PVS
whirley, i believe what they are trying to say is that in the minds of the nazis all the way up to hitler, it was justified.

it all stems from the classic arguement "does anyone knowingly do evil"

this arguement is basically saying 'no'. they WERE committing evil, but in their own warped logic, it was justifiable. the same way a crackhead/junkie sees the act of robbing their own parents as justifiable. its all about mindset.

I undersstand that PVS and I have tried to explain that some people knowingly go along with evil to them.

"I was only following orders" after the fact does not cut it, people know right from wrong.

True Evil, as PVS touched on, is mindset.

Serial killers don't see any difference between committing a murder and hugging someone. They're both just acts to them. They think "I'll do it" and do.

Evil to some, is Rock music, for example.

-AC

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I undersstand that PVS and I have tried to explain that some people knowingly go along with evil to them.

"I was only following orders" after the fact does not cut it, people know right from wrong.

Really Folks.....there is no EVIL......

Originally posted by Bardock42
There is no True Evil.....

Second the world did not only unite because it was aghainst their orals but also for many other reasons...but that's not the point......the US (for example) entered the war for similar reasons Germany killed Gypsies and Jews......because they were able to justify it to themself....

bardock, you cant take a farout philisophical concept like "there is no true evil" and the fact that the U.S. dragged their asses to lighten the guilt of nazi germany. "there is no spoon" and "they suck too" doesnt cut it here.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
True Evil, as PVS touched on, is mindset.

Serial killers don't see any difference between committing a murder and hugging someone. They're both just acts to them. They think "I'll do it" and do.

Evil to some, is Rock music, for example.

-AC

but the argument for collective responsibility in the actions of a group is strong. This kind of Evil requires people to go along with the mindset when they know its wrong, I agree Hitler could justify it. But how can the grunts. They know what they did.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
True Evil, as PVS touched on, is mindset.

Serial killers don't see any difference between committing a murder and hugging someone. They're both just acts to them. They think "I'll do it" and do.

Evil to some, is Rock music, for example.

-AC

touched on?

i SAID it.
and you're repeating it

thank you captain redundant

Originally posted by PVS
bardock, you cant take a farout philisophical concept like "there is no true evil" and the fact that the U.S. dragged their asses to lighten the guilt of nazi germany. "there is no spoon" and "they suck too" doesnt cut it here.

Actually it does......it's what this whole thread is aboot.

And I am not saying that I for me the US actions were the same as the Nazi actions.....but as a concept they are....

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
but the argument for collective responsibility in the actions of a group is strong. This kind of Evil requires people to go along with the mindset when they know its wrong, I agree Hitler could justify it. But how can the grunts. They know what they did.

Easy, their hero their famous leader convinced them it was the right thing to do. They believed him.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Really Folks.....there is no EVIL......

as Alistair Crowley said paraphrasing Genghis Khan

Originally posted by Fishy
Easy, their hero their famous leader convinced them it was the right thing to do. They believed him.

No they didn't they feared him. Max schemelling the boxer helped Jews escape, as did many others.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
as Alistair Crowley said paraphrasing Genghis Khan

Maybe...it's true though

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
No they didn't they feared him. Max schemelling the boxer helped Jews escape, as did many others.

Not all...

Originally posted by Bardock42
Maybe...it's true though



Not all...

No?

Originally posted by PVS
touched on?

i SAID it.
and you're repeating it

thank you captain redundant

Very welcome, Private Cardboard .

You said they were committing evil but in their mindset it wasn't, in your mindset it was. Like you said, mindset. Just throwing my opinion out as I'm entitled to. No harm or foul, wasn't popping at you.

-AC

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
No?

What

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there. The people who lived near these camps knew they existed. But, they like to say they didn't know the Jews in these camps were being exterminated. However, what conclusion did they reach when human ashes started falling from the sky, like snow...covering everything in their towns with a fine layer of human remains?
Vesuvius incarnate.

Originally posted by PVS
bardock, you cant take a farout philisophical concept like "there is no true evil" and the fact that the U.S. dragged their asses to lighten the guilt of nazi germany. "there is no spoon" and "they suck too" doesnt cut it here.

its true completely true and my point.

Serbia??????????? You thinking about the former Yugoslav countries that borders to Serbia???

and "the world" didnt unite against Nazi Germany because of their action toward jews and other ethnicity and minority groups, originally they united agaisnt them due to Germany "expansion" by invading and occupying sovereign country's

Exactly... They united against the germans not because the germans were evil but because they didn't do what the rest wanted them to do and they became a danger to the rest of the world. Thats why they were destroyed. The allies justified it to their people by telling them the Nazi's were evil.

The allies helped out the Soviet Union when it was having a hard time too, they justified that by saying it was necessary. They helped one evil to stop another. Everybody does evil things, its just that the victor writes our history and they determine how evil it really was. Because Hitler lost what he did became very evil.

No, he was very evil in any case. The Soviet Union won, and has also been exposed as very evil.

Whilst it is true that moral grounds of Germany's internal policies alone were not the main cause for war, the rest of your point does not track out logically, Fishy.

the allies with he exception of US was already at war with Germany when they launched their operation Barbarossa, Barbarossa automatically made USSR in war with Germany which again allied them with the side allready in war with the Axis powers. And allies help each other out of a common good they and they didnt need to justify what everybody understood

well the act of invading a country can be ssen on as evil so...............

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, he was very evil in any case. The Soviet Union won, and has also been exposed as very evil.

Whilst it is true that moral grounds of Germany's internal policies alone were not the main cause for war, the rest of your point does not track out logically, Fishy.

He was not.....he maybe was evil by our standards today, by the US standards back then, by your standards or mine...but he wasn't just evil.....

Neither was th3e Soviet Union, it was just considered an evil by the Western world...although a lesser evil than Hitler.....but it wasn't just evil...that can not be.....

I think what Ush is saying, is that we can muddy the waters all we want with symantics, but bottom line it was evil. Since we all(mostly) live in the modern western world, we can call a spade a spade.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I think what Ush is saying, is that we can muddy the waters all we want with symantics, but bottom line it was evil. Since we all(mostly) live in the modern western world, we can call a spade a spade.

It was evil, but why was it evil? Because the one's that considered it evil won the war. Because of that something like the holocaust becomes evil.

Originally posted by Fishy
It was evil, but why was it evil? Because the one's that considered it evil won the war. Because of that something like the holocaust becomes evil.


Because killing a group of people out of pure hate and detest for them is evil to anyone with a valid moral view.

Originally posted by Fishy
It was evil, but why was it evil? Because the one's that considered it evil won the war. Because of that something like the holocaust becomes evil.


You're asking the wrong guy. I may have spoken out of turn in assuming I understood what Ush was saying. But, if I was right, then I take it to mean that subjective morality is a luxury that doesn't apply to the systematic extermination of an entire religion/race.

And then consider those German citizens that DID help the jews. Why would they do that? Because even by their standards, as members of the very society that committed these act, it was wrong.

Now, I stated earlier that German citizens who fein ignorance of teh events taking place right under their noses were full of shit. I still maintain that belief. But, there was a concerted effort by the German high command to keep these events and descisions secret. So, why all the effort if everyone would have gone along with it? Because they knew, that despite their belief that the jews deserved such treatment, it was wrong. They also wanted there to be no evidence that the outside world could hold against them.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
You're asking the wrong guy. I may have spoken out of turn in assuming I understood what Ush was saying. But, if I was right, then I take it to mean that subjective morality is a luxury that doesn't apply to the systematic extermination of an entire religion/race.

And then consider those German citizens that DID help the jews. Why would they do that? Because even by their standards, as members of the very society that committed these act, it was wrong.

Now, I stated earlier that German citizens who fein ignorance of teh events taking place right under their noses were full of shit. I still maintain that belief. But, there was a concerted effort by the German high command to keep these events and descisions secret. So, why all the effort if everyone would have gone along with it? Because they knew, that despite their belief that the jews deserved such treatment, it was wrong. They also wanted there to be no evidence that the outside world could hold against them.

Well a lot of germans really didn't know. But just look at the neo nazi's of the day. They still refuse to acccept the holocaust. So yeah I guess that was considered wrong by most. But still there were those that didn't. Those people accepted it. They justified it.

Point still stands holocaust could be justified, although perhaps it was to hard to do for all, or even impossible. Whatever the case some people justified it for themselves. Meaning that even the mass murder of people could be justified.

And it has been done before you know, just think of the Romans.. God knows how many people wanted to kill them all. And some even tried. The murder of an entire culture or race can be justified as easy as the destruction of a country as long as one is willing to accept it.

Originally posted by finti
Serbia??????????? You thinking about the former Yugoslav countries that borders to Serbia???

and "the world" didnt unite against Nazi Germany because of their action toward jews and other ethnicity and minority groups, originally they united agaisnt them due to Germany "expansion" by invading and occupying sovereign country's

actually the whole premise of what germany stood for was the truest evil and the world did unite against it after it went into poland, the problems regarding its aryan ideals were however part of the disgust the world shared at its behaviour.

Examples of hilarious superior rhetoric are the munich Olympics and the brown bomber vs Schmelling who was actually a damn good guy, but the germans were using him, and yes I meant the minority groups the serbs attacked my cousin was part of the UN response, in the cold stream guards.

As for the rest of the world uniting most of it had fallen and for a while Britain stood alone. Don't forget the Russians started out with a pact with the Nazi's. Churchill wanted to A bomb innocent Russians after the war to stop the spread of communism. Equally evil.

Neo Nazis still don't acknowledge the holocaust is as bad as me saying the civil war didn't have a thing to do with slavery lol what a good one! Just because people choose ignorance doesn't excuse their actions.

Originally posted by soleran30
Neo Nazis still don't acknowledge the holocaust is as bad as me saying the civil war didn't have a thing to do with slavery lol what a good one! Just because people choose ignorance doesn't excuse their actions.

So true, if you ever visit Normandy something I did with a group of children about 7 years ago. I was one of the adults taking them. Take a visit to the German cemetary not just the various allied ones. Read the rememberance book, you get every loony neo nazi organisation in Europe writing vile filth in it including the likes of combat 18.

Yeah I lived in Northern VA/DC for about 12 years went to college there went to the holocaust museum.....ugh disturbing medical experiments etc etc

Looking at the medical experiments they did to induce hypothermia in the various victims and taking notes and drawing blood work. No it was blatant and the people that refuse to acknowledge this need special treatment.......

So before we can excuse anyone of their "war crimes" step back acknowledge ALL the things done and you would realize that perhaps evil isn't the correct word however WRONG doings on a global scale would fit well.

And you know they broke the Gold teeth out the mouths of their victims....made criminals the Guards of each house.....murdered political enemies and sent their families that they commited suicide....killed minors for not agreeing with them and all the other cruel stuff....but guess what ...ITS NOT THE ****ING POINT OF THIS ****ING THREAD.....if you want to whine aboot it...please open another one...this thread has a whole different question to it...and if you can't stay on topic why don't you jsut leave....please....

Originally posted by soleran30
Yeah I lived in Northern VA/DC for about 12 years went to college there went to the holocaust museum.....ugh disturbing medical experiments etc etc

Looking at the medical experiments they did to induce hypothermia in the various victims and taking notes and drawing blood work. No it was blatant and the people that refuse to acknowledge this need special treatment.......

So before we can excuse anyone of their "war crimes" step back acknowledge ALL the things done and you would realize that perhaps evil isn't the correct word however WRONG doings on a global scale would fit well.

I'm going to disagree, I feel it was evil pure and simple. However I feel its time to forgive, its 60 years ago..... but not forget the lessons that should be learnt

Originally posted by Fishy
Well a lot of germans really didn't know. But just look at the neo nazi's of the day. They still refuse to acccept the holocaust. So yeah I guess that was considered wrong by most. But still there were those that didn't. Those people accepted it. They justified it.

Point still stands holocaust could be justified, although perhaps it was to hard to do for all, or even impossible. Whatever the case some people justified it for themselves. Meaning that even the mass murder of people could be justified.

And it has been done before you know, just think of the Romans.. God knows how many people wanted to kill them all. And some even tried. The murder of an entire culture or race can be justified as easy as the destruction of a country as long as one is willing to accept it.


I'm not sure, are we arguing?

Originally posted by Bardock42
And you know they broke the Gold teeth out the mouths of their victims....made criminals the Guards of each house.....murdered political enemies and sent their families that they commited suicide....killed minors for not agreeing with them and all the other cruel stuff....but guess what ...ITS NOT THE ****ING POINT OF THIS ****ING THREAD.....if you want to whine aboot it...please open another one...this thread has a whole different question to it...and if you can't stay on topic why don't you jsut leave....please....

All the german people need to acknowledge it was evil and stop trying to justify it.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
All the german people need to acknowledge it was evil and stop trying to justify it.

All the British people need to see that evil is nothing that just exists by itself and need to shut up if they can't contribute.......

Well ok Bardock aside from those silly astericks which I couldn't read.
I appreciate your passion there now for a second go back and read where I mentioned the experiments. In the end the law is only as powerful as you let it be to you. So its really a matter of ethics Germany ethically crippled itself in that time period using certain ethnic groups to drive it political agenda.

The holocaust cannot be justified by any rational person unless incited by zealots into fanaticism then they aren't rational anymore and it cannot be justified.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
All the german people need to acknowledge it was evil and stop trying to justify it.

Whoa! Back the **** up! Not one person I've ever heard, outside of teh American Neo-Nazi movment is justifying anything. It's one thing for a 80 year old German, wholived through that period, to deny they KNEW it was going on...but I've never heard any of them publicly justify it. And certainly, no one that wasn't alive at that point need apologize to ANYONE for it.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Whoa! Back the **** up! Not one person I've ever heard, outside on teh American Neo-Nazi movment is justifying anything. It's one thing for a 80 year old German, wholived through that period, to deny they KNEW it was going on...but I've never heard any of them publicly justify it. And certainly, no one that wasn't alive at that point need apologize to ANYONE for it.

Read Bardocks posts and it is not isolated many deny that the Holocaust ever happened, crazy really. My ethnicity also finds it somewhat offensive, I am sorry I cannot be objective about a thread which has the sole purpose of saying crimes against humanity can be justified.
Thats the threads premise.

Originally posted by soleran30
Well ok Bardock aside from those silly astericks which I couldn't read.
I appreciate your passion there now for a second go back and read where I mentioned the experiments. In the end the law is only as powerful as you let it be to you. So its really a matter of ethics Germany ethically crippled itself in that time period using certain ethnic groups to drive it political agenda.

The holocaust cannot be justified by any rational person unless incited by zealots into fanaticism then they aren't rational anymore and it cannot be justified.

Again you pretend there is soe ethics that is in every human being and is superior to thought...but there isn't...evil is what we as people don't like, while good is what we like...and that can vary......

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
Read Bardocks posts and it is not isolated many deny that the Holocaust ever happened, crazy really. My ethnicity also finds it somewhat offensive, I am sorry I cannot be objective about a thread which has the sole purpose of saying crimes against humanity can be justified.
Thats the threads premise.

I do not mean by this Bardock blieves it never happened, just he believes it was not evil and can be justified.

Bardock, do you deny that the holocaust took place?

I didn't mention evil one time in my thread Bardock. I brought up ethics germany was a christian country yet they listened to the ravings of a power hungery monger. Its more about the ethics........they knew right from wrong from being in a "christian" nation yet chose wrong by their own teachings.

So to recap germany as a whole was wrong. What they did wasn't because they really believed they needed a cleansing but they did need a scapegoat to drive the war machine and give them purpose.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Bardock, do you deny that the holocaust took place?

No...it certainly did took palce...there is variopus evidence for that....

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I do not mean by this Bardock blieves it never happened, just he believes it was not evil and can be justified.
I didn't say it was not "evil" by my standards...or by societies standards.....or even by 90% of all the world ever standards.....but you can't just say...this is evil, this is good...cause it is totally subjective....

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
I do not mean by this Bardock blieves it never happened, just he believes it was not evil and can be justified.

Not one person in this thread has said it WAS JUSTIFIED...they have simply said that it COULD BE JUSTIFIED BASED ON THE POV OF THOSE WHO CARRIED IT OUT.

No one is saying it was the right thing to do, only that those who allowed it to happen were able to justify it to themselves.

Originally posted by soleran30
I didn't mention evil one time in my thread Bardock. I brought up ethics germany was a christian country yet they listened to the ravings of a power hungery monger. Its more about the ethics........they knew right from wrong from being in a "christian" nation yet chose wrong by their own teachings.

So to recap germany as a whole was wrong. What they did wasn't because they really believed they needed a cleansing but they did need a scapegoat to drive the war machine and give them purpose.
I am moslty talking to Whirly.......and he can't stop talking aboot evil....

Again, I agree that by a Christian view it was wrong and evil...but you can't just generally say it was evil.....theres no reason to say that....