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I mean come on.

"Only a Sith deals in absolute."

That is an oxymoron. ONLY a sith. That's an absolute statement! This is the last of many contradictions within the order that make them unlivable and completely false.

Kenobi tells Luke that Vader killed his father. Why? To manipulate him. To make sure Luke became a Jedi, and helped to restore the Jedi to power. He twisted his will. A practice the Order teaches to be evil and wrong. (at least according to the teachings of the Old Republic).

Secondly, it is common Jedi code not to kill anyone, if possible. Hold them as prisoner, try them in court, and then execute if necessary. Mace Windu and his band of Council members drew their lightsabers when they went to arrest Palpatine. They didn't even give him a chance to surrender peacefully. Not that he would, but its the principle of the matter. And then, once he has Palpatine beaten and begging for his life, he still is intent on killing the man! It just goes against their code! What the heck?!

Anyhow, this and other inconsistencies found in the Jedi teachings are what have driven me to reject and renounce them. I am not Sith in the respect that I don't hunt Jedi down, but I am not Jedi enough to only want the truth all the time, and to do what I feel is right, not what some group who holds power tells me I should think is right. The Jedi hold themselves at a double standard, and are not as noble as they would make you to think. Just open your eyes, recieve only the absolute truth.

Think of how differently Luke would have reacted to the information, had he been told before he learned the ways of the force. He would have 'fallen' to the dark side, but he would have done so fully aware of his decision. And he and Anakin probably would have killed the emperor off, too. I believe this, because after seeing the prequels, Anakin's motivation for his actions seems totally different. At first, he just seems like a ruthless guy, until you fully understand his work. He is trying to preserve peace in his empire. He doesn't want war, he wants peace. And he is willing to sacrifice all to get it. He was willing to do so when he first 'fell'. Eventually he or Luke would have discovered the taint that the emperor was, and removed him.

At any rate, I just want more people to know the truth. The Jedi are not the absolute good. They are as twisted as they claim the dark side to be. Open your eyes to the truth, and you will realize this as well.

I've seen this for a while. "Only a sith deals in absolutes" When...

"Destroy the sith, we Must"
"You and the naboo form a symbiot circle, you Must understand this."


Mace HAD to kill palps, because he was a sith Lord. His approach was different from Anakins. It didn't matter he was a senator, he was a Sith. The priority of the Jedi is to be rid of the Sith once and for all, which is ironic, for without chaos, order cannot exist. Which leads me to believe that without the Sith would cause an imbalance in the force, since there is only order, and no chaos. And don't gimme that "But george lucas said this" crap. It's just my opinion, and the way I feel, I don't care what george says really. Well I'm goin' to bed, 'night y'all.

Wow, that made almost no sense, so I will rebuke the parts I understand.

Mace only HAD to kill palps because he felt he was a threat. And he was, to the Order. But this whole issue is one of opinion. The Jedi are too full of hypocritical beliefs that counter themselves to be called the good team.

The priority of the Jedi is to defend. Not destroy the Sith. Yoda says himself in episode IV, a jedi only uses his power to defend, never attack. The Jedi are not created to destroy sith. If thats what you think, then you need to analyze the religion and teachings a bit more.

As for the George Lucas stuff, I have no clue where that came from, so I'll let it go for now.

Arrant nonsense. Jedi ARE the good guys. There have been plenty of juvenile attempts to so cast them down and all of them are feeble. Trying to be glib with Obi-Wan's comment is just flim-flam; you know what he meant. Sheer pedanticism.

Mace HAD to destroy Sidious. That was an absolute measure of necessity, in the same way that Anakin later HAD to kill him also. GL makes it clear that there is no possibility of a peaceful resolution- the Sith must be destroyed for balance to be restored. No way out. It clearly weighed very heavily upon Mace but he had to do it.

If Luke had been told aboit his father it would have sent him on the course to the Dark Side. Yoda was going to tell Luke when he was ready, and this was all good and sensible.

Meanwhile, feel free to just have an opinion and ignore what GL says. But- that makes you, in matters of this kind, WRONG! The Star Wars Galaxy is not real. The real world we have no 'rulebook' for. But the Star Wars Galaxy does have such a book, in the mind of its creator. It is therefore not subject, in many areas, to matters of opinion, it is subject to fact, as decided by GL. Han is not a woman. The Death Star is not green. And the Sith must be destroyed for Balance to exist- whilst they exist there is imbalance. That is all there is to it.

Originally posted by Caden_Amor
At any rate, I just want more people to know the truth. The Jedi are not the absolute good. They are as twisted as they claim the dark side to be. Open your eyes to the truth, and you will realize this as well.

Uhh...its just a movie dude. Its not real. Your talking like Morpheus here.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The Star Wars Galaxy is not real. The real world we have no 'rulebook' for. But the Star Wars Galaxy does have such a book, in the mind of its creator. It is therefore not subject, in many areas, to matters of opinion, it is subject to fact, as decided by GL. Han is not a woman. The Death Star is not green. And the Sith must be destroyed for Balance to exist- whilst they exist there is imbalance. That is all there is to it.

Damn, beaten to it

i thought it was real when i was young, playin with those toy lightsabers.

that was the day

PT Jedi = Stupid morons

OT Jedi = Ownage

Dodo = http://img333.imageshack.us/img333/1933/suicide7nr.gif

in stead of the dark side and light side,


there should be a dim side

How is there 'balance' when the good guys are in total control? Lucas' approach to characterisation is juvenile, and with his age and apparent declining mental state continuing to blindly support him is stupid.

Nonsense, and that statement is arrogant beyond belief. GL has a view of balance that differs from a simple set of scales- THAT, not his view, is the juvenile view that any child could come up with. His is different. Balance is good; the two are synonomous. Imbalance is evil. Evil is the force OF imbalance. That is why the theme of the PT films is Symbiosis- things depending on each other. The Light Side is Balanced and symbiotic, the Dark, imbalanced and parasitic.

That is how it is. If you don't like it- tough. This is a place to discuss things about Star Wars, and that is one of the facts of Star Wars, and you have no grounds to call it stupid. So please do desist from that.

All these people unable to escape the 'set-of-scales' mindset about Balance astonishes me. Be a bit more open-minded.

Originally posted by darthvader_fan
in stead of the dark side and light side,


there should be a dim side that would be my side

Once again, this entire issue is a matter of perspective. Imbalance to the Jedi is not bad to a Sith. And to say imbalance is 'evil' is just as stupid as calling someone else's opinion the same.

Evil is another issue that is completely based on perspective. I'm sure that the hordes of clone troopers didn't find their cause to be evil. Or think that they were evil. But all of the alliance thought it true. Its just perspective. Darth Vader just wanted peace throughout his empire, thats not evil. Ok, he used some extreme methods, but that happens in real wars nowadays, but we don't consider our armies evil.

Open-minded? I think YOU are the one being the opposite here. GL created a universe in which these things happen, yes. But think how much differently the story would have seemed if the focus was on Vader, and the evil force that killed his technicians and stole data from him. If the perspective had been changed, things would have been immensely different in your head. My only point is to stop being so easily manipulated by what someone else says is wrong or right. It is rare to find things so easily defined in the real world. Black and white are almost never clearly laid out. Heck, I am a believer that there is no 'universal right and wrong'. There are too many variables, too many separate opinions. You don't have to agree with me, but at least accept that from a different perspective, what I say is true.

"Sheer pedanticism"

Ok, I looked up that second word there on dictionary.com, and no results were found. So before I refute Obi-Wan's statement comment, go ahead and find a real word to argue with.

Luke going to the dark side may not have necessarily happened, but is most likely. But again, I'm brought back to my original point. The dark side is only dark to those who fear its existance, and who believe it to be evil. The dark side can be looked upon also as the way of power, using the force to its full potential. Offensive use of the force is NOT evil. Only according to jedi code. And in my opinion the Jedi are very wrong. Luke realizing his full potential is not evil, but the way he used it may have been. What everyone needs to do to understand my perspective here is to take a step back. Look at the force, and all the abilities that go with it. Look beyond the one sided teachings of the Jedi and the Sith. Beyond the brainwashing dogma of the Jedi. Beyond the hatred filled Sith teachings. Just look at the force. It is completely neutral. Only how you use the power is what determines good or evil. The 'dark side powers' may never be evil, if only used to defend. Or at least only to destroy evil. Anyhow, I'm rambling again, and I'm starting to repeat myself.

My final point is simple. Dancing bananas are just too much fun to watch.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
...But the Star Wars Galaxy does have such a book, in the mind of its creator. It is therefore not subject, in many areas, to matters of opinion, it is subject to fact, as decided by GL. Han is not a woman. The Death Star is not green.

then who shot first? han or greedo?

Originally posted by Caden_Amor

That is an oxymoron.

Actually, from a literary point of view, it's not.



You have just made an absolute statement. Congratulation, you are full of it too

What obi-wan told luke was true from a certain point of view.
As for mace trying to kill palps, ummm he chopped off Jango's head without hesitation, and all the other jedi were hacking down the genosisians left right and center. and then obiwan and yoda are hacking down clonetroppers they are not try to imobilze them and then arrest them.

Originally posted by SS_181st_Snow
I've seen this for a while. "Only a sith deals in absolutes" When...

"Destroy the sith, we Must"
"You and the naboo form a symbiot circle, you Must understand this."


Mace HAD to kill palps, because he was a sith Lord. His approach was different from Anakins. It didn't matter he was a senator, he was a Sith. The priority of the Jedi is to be rid of the Sith once and for all, which is ironic, for without chaos, order cannot exist. Which leads me to believe that without the Sith would cause an imbalance in the force, since there is only order, and no chaos. And don't gimme that "But george lucas said this" crap. It's just my opinion, and the way I feel, I don't care what george says really. Well I'm goin' to bed, 'night y'all.

Yeah, I was kinda tired last night, so I'll try and fix my statement.

The priority of the Jedi is to defend, but when there's a Sith lurking about, it should be their first priority to locate, and erase said Sith from the face of the Force. And what lucas says is "the sith cause imbalance", which I don't agree with, because if the Sith are destroyed for good, the jedi have to die too, because without chaos, order cannot exist. I'm sure that minor enemies like mandalorians or a few gangsters can be taken out by the Republic's forces.

As for this whole perspective thing, that's a great way to put it. To the Jedi, Sith are evil. To the Sith, Jedi are evil. If you put yourself in Vader's shoes, or helmet, what he's doing isn't exactly evil to him. He's only doing his orders. The only person in Star Wars who really thinks himself as evil is Palpitine. To me, he IS the dark side. I think it's just the way the Sith use their powers is why people consider them evil. What if someone gained the powers of the Dark Side, but like someone said, used them for defense? The force itself is neutral, even it's powers and abilities are neutral. You can live in the dark side and still learn an ability like Healing yourself, which is a meditation. You can spend your whole life on the lightside and learn how to Choke or use Lightning. It's just how people USE these powers.

Oops, that was a big paragraph. Oh well, there's another 2 cents of mine.

"The sith are evil"

then i am evil

Originally posted by Eleonora
You have just made an absolute statement. Congratulation, you are full of it too

The difference between myself and the Jedi is that I never claimed to be anything I'm not. Making absolute statements don't make someone full of it, its saying that NO ONE should do it EVER that makes them full of it.

I put it down to Lucas's terrible writing skills...

I agree with Ush. This is all arrogant stupidity.

I have a gun for killing that...

I love that gun, it reminds me of Pierce Brosnan.

It's amazing how everyone says that, for there to be balance in the Force, there had to be the Dark Side.

But...wouldn't it be, that without any Dark Sde, and hence, no evil among the Force-sensitives, that no proble would arise amongst themselves?

Like the Renegade Jedi that would later form the Ancient Sith, if there WAS no Dark Side, then there would not have been Sith, or Revan, Or Palpatine, the galaxy wouldn't have gone through what it did, if it wasn't for the Dark Side.

The Jedi are keepers of the peace. They went into the Supreme Chancellor's office to arrest Palps, with swords drawn, which is not a crime.

Now consider the Jedi to be like cops arresting somebody. If you attack a cop with lethal force, they can use lethal force right back. If the chancellor had gone quietly, maybe this whole tragedy could have been avoided.

Palpatine struck first, the Jedi did not attack Palpatine. Then Palps quickly kills 3 jedi, then turns on Mace. Mace flicks away palps' saber, so Palps come back with the lightning. More deadly force by Palps. Mace Windu was in complete rights, by our U.S. law anyway, to kill Palpatine then as Palps was using lethal force at Mace. I don't care if Palps was mad because Mace broke his big window, that doesn't excuse it!

Ok, imo...

to bring balance to the force palps had to die... with him the darkside was increasing, unbalancing said force...

the darkside is neccessary, just not to the point it would be at with palpatine alive...

i think...

Originally posted by Caden_Amor
Once again, this entire issue is a matter of perspective. Imbalance to the Jedi is not bad to a Sith. And to say imbalance is 'evil' is just as stupid as calling someone else's opinion the same.


Your perspective when trying to talk about establihed facta of the SW Univers eis totally irrelevant. Only one perspective counts- GLs.

Any approach which starts trying to talk about the 'brainwashed dogma' of the Jedi has obviously missed the point entirely. You are wrong on these issues by a country mile. You have to understand that in a simple morality tale like Star Wars, the Jedi are the good guys, and what they do IS good and right. In Star Wars, that the Sith are evil and the Jedi good is a matter of objective fact, not perspective.

"And what lucas says is "the sith cause imbalance", which I don't agree with, because if the Sith are destroyed for good, the jedi have to die too, because without chaos, order cannot exist. I'm sure that minor enemies like mandalorians or a few gangsters can be taken out by the Republic's forces."

See, whether you agree or not is completely irrelevant. That, in STAR WARS, is how it IS. If you don't like that, fine. Don't like the film. But that doesn't change the FACT. The fact is, in Star Wars, that is the way it is. Imbalance in Star Wars IS evil, and so it is not remotrely stupid to call it that, that being the truth.

You have every right to disgaree with the philosophy underpinning Star Wars. But what you absolutely cannot do is argue whether that IS the philosophy or not, For good or bad, it is. Star Wars is not a Galacy where chaos has to exist for there to be order. it is a Galaxy where Balance is the forc eof Good, and Imbalance the force of evil, and your opinion isn't worth squat against the facts.

You do realize of course that your talking about something entirely made up...

Originally posted by Caden_Amor
I mean come on.

"Only a Sith deals in absolute."

That is an oxymoron. ONLY a sith. That's an absolute statement! This is the last of many contradictions within the order that make them unlivable and completely false.

Kenobi tells Luke that Vader killed his father. Why? To manipulate him. To make sure Luke became a Jedi, and helped to restore the Jedi to power. He twisted his will. A practice the Order teaches to be evil and wrong. (at least according to the teachings of the Old Republic).

Secondly, it is common Jedi code not to kill anyone, if possible. Hold them as prisoner, try them in court, and then execute if necessary. Mace Windu and his band of Council members drew their lightsabers when they went to arrest Palpatine. They didn't even give him a chance to surrender peacefully. Not that he would, but its the principle of the matter. And then, once he has Palpatine beaten and begging for his life, he still is intent on killing the man! It just goes against their code! What the heck?!

Anyhow, this and other inconsistencies found in the Jedi teachings are what have driven me to reject and renounce them. I am not Sith in the respect that I don't hunt Jedi down, but I am not Jedi enough to only want the truth all the time, and to do what I feel is right, not what some group who holds power tells me I should think is right. The Jedi hold themselves at a double standard, and are not as noble as they would make you to think. Just open your eyes, recieve only the absolute truth.

Think of how differently Luke would have reacted to the information, had he been told before he learned the ways of the force. He would have 'fallen' to the dark side, but he would have done so fully aware of his decision. And he and Anakin probably would have killed the emperor off, too. I believe this, because after seeing the prequels, Anakin's motivation for his actions seems totally different. At first, he just seems like a ruthless guy, until you fully understand his work. He is trying to preserve peace in his empire. He doesn't want war, he wants peace. And he is willing to sacrifice all to get it. He was willing to do so when he first 'fell'. Eventually he or Luke would have discovered the taint that the emperor was, and removed him.

At any rate, I just want more people to know the truth. The Jedi are not the absolute good. They are as twisted as they claim the dark side to be. Open your eyes to the truth, and you will realize this as well.

IT'S A GOD DANG MOVIE!

A great one nevertheless, but who cares if parts are like what you said? It's for our entertainment.