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ok i know this might be a little pointless but, it needs to be done.


-SIDIOUS LOST TO MACE, not on purpose, he lost (Keyword Lost)

-Dooku lost to anakin because he was told to, that victory had nothing to do with anakin being stronger

- in the classics Skywalker could never beat Vader if he actually tried.

-Stop using midichlorains, age, and war experience arguements in one on one/whos is better duels

- although it pains me to say it, Luke and Leia were a mistake by Anakin


- yoda didnt lose to sidious, it was a DRAW

- Dooku didnt lose to yoda, he had to run because of death star plans
(although i think he would he would lost in a rematch)

-Maul died because of his idiotic overconfidence, not because obi-wan is stronger

- Anakin fell to the darkside because of his inablilty to be satisfied, and his fear of failure. (feel free to add on to that)



ok thats all i can think of right now...........

feel free to add on things that need to be cleared up in this star wars universe.

also feel free to bash my veiws, but they come from other people's veiws as well, and some only require common sense.

Oh man, THANK YOU, I HATE it when people use midichlorians and war-experience as excuses.

And yes, Dooku still would have been f*cked if Yoda hadn't flipped.

Oi, not another one. It is pointless, and it has been done about a million times.

-Sidious lost on purpose.

-Dooku did lose to Anakin because he was told to play easy, as you say.

-Luke beat Vader fair and square.

-Midi-chlorians and age have no effect on anything except for connection to the Force and years training, and war experience just helps practice skills in combat, but not dueling.

-I doubt that; if he didn't want kids, I'm sure the Galaxy has an equivalent of birth control that's unstoppable

-Yoda lost to Sidious, because after the lightning burst, Yoda admitted his defeat.

-Dooku ran because Yoda was going to kill him if the duel went on any longer.

-Maul did die of overconfidence and arrogance, as you say.

-Anakin fell because of his fear, as you say, but not his inability to be satisfied. He was afraid of too many things.

Since we've had several of these before, this will probably be closed. *shrug*

ohhh it has oooppps, ok well lets consider this one and updated version.

well.....he would have lost, but i dont think thats why he ran. he had the plans to the death star, thats my veiw.

Meh, I don't think so. Sure, he had them, but I don't think he would care what happened to the plans if Yoda killed him.

maybe........

And why the hell can't we use war experience as an argument? Wars make you more powerful you know... They force you to train and fight..

-Maul died because of his idiotic overconfidence, not because obi-wan is stronger?

Maul was plain stupid!! There is this jedi flying over your head and still he gets cut in half by him? WTF??

- Anakin fell to the darkside because of his inablilty to be satisfied, and his fear of failure. (feel free to add on to that)

Anakin probably expected to much from his training and all (see how I can say probably instead of stating it like a fact as some people do?)

Pretty weird thread by the way.. We all know we are all entitled to our own opinion, no need to set some record straight, we all have our different views, although some people should accept it when they can't convince somebody, you may try, but don't get too upset or view them as fools.
I think that the versus forum gets a little out of hand sometimes by the way. Grrr.. I'm setting the record straight now..

It was Anakin's fears that brought him down, not his being 'held back.'

That was supposed to be made clear in the movie, but I thought it was a little stupid (i have a dream that you will die, oh my), I personally view it as Anakin being a whiny b!tch who wanted it all (and I want now!: queen) and thinking that Obi was holding him down. And those frustrations leading to this and that and to the dark side eventually.

Originally posted by Captain REX
Oi, not another one. It is pointless, and it has been done about a million times.

-Sidious lost on purpose.

-Dooku did lose to Anakin because he was told to play easy, as you say.

-Luke beat Vader fair and square.

-Midi-chlorians and age have no effect on anything except for connection to the Force and years training, and war experience just helps practice skills in combat, but not dueling.

-I doubt that; if he didn't want kids, I'm sure the Galaxy has an equivalent of birth control that's unstoppable

-Yoda lost to Sidious, because after the lightning burst, Yoda admitted his defeat.

-Dooku ran because Yoda was going to kill him if the duel went on any longer.

-Maul did die of overconfidence and arrogance, as you say.

-Anakin fell because of his fear, as you say, but not his inability to be satisfied. He was afraid of too many things.

Since we've had several of these before, this will probably be closed. *shrug*


-wrong
-right
-maybe

-maybe
-lol
-meh..
-maybe
-right
-right
-oh well..

i'm sorry but war experience is a big factor in duels. it shows just how good you are with a lightsaber compared to fighting driods.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
i'm sorry but war experience is a big factor in duels. it shows just how good you are with a lightsaber compared to fighting driods.

Exactly war experience matters a lot.

would have, could have, should have, might have, maybe....blahhhhh

Originally posted by Fishy
And why the hell can't we use war experience as an argument? Wars make you more powerful you know... They force you to train and fight.. you misunderstand what im getting at, i dont see how war experience; being a general, strategist, out on the battlfeild with a bunch of soldiers, helps you in a one on one duel. how it can it do that? does it help your lightsaber style, it most likely will increase your power in the force, but most one on one duels are fought with lightsabers. or a little both. but most of the time its lightsabers and some force powers here and theyre. im still not convinced war experience can help you in one on one duels.

Originally posted by overlord
-Maul died because of his idiotic overconfidence, not because obi-wan is stronger?

Maul was plain stupid!! There is this jedi flying over your head and still he gets cut in half by him? WTF??

- Anakin fell to the darkside because of his inablilty to be satisfied, and his fear of failure. (feel free to add on to that)

Anakin probably expected to much from his training and all (see how I can say probably instead of stating it like a fact as some people do?)

Pretty weird thread by the way.. We all know we are all entitled to our own opinion, no need to set some record straight, we all have our different views, although some people should accept it when they can't convince somebody, you may try, but don't get too upset or view them as fools.
I think that the versus forum gets a little out of hand sometimes by the way. Grrr.. I'm setting the record straight now.. oh i know, i dont like it when people bash each other on these threads, and i dont expect to change everyone's veiws or opinions on some matters of star wars. i guess im using this thread to share my veiws on some issues in star wars. but im definitely not gonna bash anybody i disagree with.

i know im not right about some of the things i listed, like anakin's fall. but when i watch him thats what i see. honestly, he is never satisfied. when the council knighted him, put him on the council and didnt make him a master, he was still mad, he fliped out in front of the enitre concil. why be mad about that? hes a jedi knight but he is on the council with other masters. that definitely counts for something.

Originally posted by Tengu Man
you misunderstand what im getting at, i dont see how war experience; being a general, strategist, out on the battlfeild with a bunch of soldiers, helps you in a one on one duel. how it can it do that? does it help your lightsaber style, it most likely will increase your power in the force, but most one on one duels are fought with lightsabers. or a little both. but most of the time its lightsabers and some force powers here and theyre. im still not convinced war experience can help you in one on one duels.

what about frontline generals that are getting the action and killing lots of other force users and lightsaber duelists?

-SIDIOUS LOST TO MACE, not on purpose, he lost (Keyword Lost)

Being the fact why Sidious was weak one second and split Mace out of a window another second later. Windu was played out, son.

-Dooku lost to anakin because he was told to, that victory had nothing to do with anakin being stronger

This is true.

- in the classics Skywalker could never beat Vader if he actually tried.

This is akward. I could have sworn i saw Luke defeat Vader as he tried. Hmm..... Just a dream, i guess....

-Stop using midichlorains, age, and war experience arguements in one on one/whos is better duels

Midichlorians are nothing. Age and War experience are soemthing. Putting Midiclhorians with Age and War Experience is sad. Experience grants alot more than you would think. Age = Experience = Skill = Ownage.

- although it pains me to say it, Luke and Leia were a mistake by Anakin



- yoda didnt lose to sidious, it was a DRAW

100% Correct.

- Dooku didnt lose to yoda, he had to run because of death star plans
(although i think he would he would lost in a rematch)

As much as i love Dooku, the script for Episode II states that Yoda won out of sheer skill and Dooku ran out of the fact that he knew Yoda would defeat him.

-Maul died because of his idiotic overconfidence, not because obi-wan is stronger

Strength requires wisdom. Being a true imbodiment of Power requires more than Lightsaber skills and Physical attribute. Kenobi was stronger than Maul.

- Anakin fell to the darkside because of his inablilty to be satisfied, and his fear of failure. (feel free to add on to that)

There was many reasons for his fall. You only named two.

isnt one to do with u know, his mother dying, Padme "gonna die", he doesnt wanto lose anyone again...

Sidious promised power he didnt deliver.

Originally posted by Tengu Man
oh i know, i dont like it when people bash each other on these threads, and i dont expect to change everyone's veiws or opinions on some matters of star wars. i guess im using this thread to share my veiws on some issues in star wars. but im definitely not gonna bash anybody i disagree with.

i know im not right about some of the things i listed, like anakin's fall. but when i watch him thats what i see. honestly, he is never satisfied. when the council knighted him, put him on the council and didnt make him a master, he was still mad, he fliped out in front of the enitre concil. why be mad about that? hes a jedi knight but he is on the council with other masters. that definitely counts for something.

Indeed, nobody has to be master debater, science fiction is for ones own interpretation so people shouldn't be too hard to new guys.
And indeed again, Anakin was placed in the jedi councel, still he immediately needed to be master, he had no friggin patience at all.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Age = Experience = Skill = Ownage. *whispers oh my god.. I finally know the secret to ownage(!!)* dance

Originally posted by Tengu Man
you misunderstand what im getting at, i dont see how war experience; being a general, strategist, out on the battlfeild with a bunch of soldiers, helps you in a one on one duel. how it can it do that? does it help your lightsaber style, it most likely will increase your power in the force, but most one on one duels are fought with lightsabers. or a little both. but most of the time its lightsabers and some force powers here and theyre. im still not convinced war experience can help you in one on one duels.

Experience as a general can not... It can give you a tactical insight but it won't do much. Experience as a front line general however helps a lot. Experience in war fighting people helps.

Well hello their.

Originally posted by Nactous
Well hello their.

It annoys me that you're a senior member.. What next? Nactous the moderator?

Originally posted by overlord
It annoys me that you're a senior member.. What next? Nactous the moderator? LMAO

God forbid.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
God forbid. Don't worry, I will.

Appreciate it. I think Overlord hasn't caught on to the fact that people become senior members after a relatively low set amount of posts.

100 isn't it?

Just about. I never knew; I changed my title first thing.

Wish I'd thought of that......(sighs)...oh well, back to my margerita.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Appreciate it. I think Overlord hasn't caught on to the fact that people become senior members after a relatively low set amount of posts.

Ha! You guys have already told me before that it takes a hundred posts to become senior member. It still doesn't take away the point that it looks silly with someone who says "hello everybody!"
Senior member.. Damn.. I still consider myself a newbie..

Originally posted by overlord
Ha! You guys have already told me before that it takes a hundred posts to become senior member. It still doesn't take away the point that it looks silly with someone who says "hello everybody!"
Senior member.. Damn.. I still consider myself a newbie.. Yeah, same here, and Nactous sounds like an enema-bag when he does that.

You know personally that sound?

Back to topic at hand other wise uthjarek (cant remember) will cut this topic.

BOW BEFORE THE MIGHTY THREAD DESTROYER

Originally posted by Sorgo
-SIDIOUS LOST TO MACE, not on purpose, he lost (Keyword Lost)

Being the fact why Sidious was weak one second and split Mace out of a window another second later. Windu was played out, son.

-Dooku lost to anakin because he was told to, that victory had nothing to do with anakin being stronger

This is true.

- in the classics Skywalker could never beat Vader if he actually tried.

This is akward. I could have sworn i saw Luke defeat Vader as he tried. Hmm..... Just a dream, i guess....

-Stop using midichlorains, age, and war experience arguements in one on one/whos is better duels

Midichlorians are nothing. Age and War experience are soemthing. Putting Midiclhorians with Age and War Experience is sad. Experience grants alot more than you would think. Age = Experience = Skill = Ownage.

- although it pains me to say it, Luke and Leia were a mistake by Anakin



- yoda didnt lose to sidious, it was a DRAW

100% Correct.

- Dooku didnt lose to yoda, he had to run because of death star plans
(although i think he would he would lost in a rematch)

As much as i love Dooku, the script for Episode II states that Yoda won out of sheer skill and Dooku ran out of the fact that he knew Yoda would defeat him.

-Maul died because of his idiotic overconfidence, not because obi-wan is stronger

Strength requires wisdom. Being a true imbodiment of Power requires more than Lightsaber skills and Physical attribute. Kenobi was stronger than Maul.

- Anakin fell to the darkside because of his inablilty to be satisfied, and his fear of failure. (feel free to add on to that)

There was many reasons for his fall. You only named two.


ok what i mean when i say age, im saying like some people say this guy is younger so he can beat this other guy or this other guy is old and he cant keep. but thats not true take yoda for example.
thats what i meant about age. my bad guys.

i know i only named 2 for anakins fall, of course there is more then that, thats why i said add on to that.

as much as i dont wanna admit what you said about maul and kenobi makes sense. maybe i liked maul so much i was a little blind there. but can we at least say maul ias a better swordsman, you gotta agree with me on that one.


ok now for vader and luke.

in ESB you had to have noticed that when Vader got pissed he picked up the tempo on skywalker, and he was down shortly. at first he wasnt trying until luke got a nice shot on him near the air ducts in Cloud City.

in ROTJ, yes he did lose i dont dispute (how can you ) but it didnt seem like Vader was trying too hard, not to mention Luke being his only son and all. and after losing his wife, the jedi order, his life, which were all coincidently his fault, i dont think hes gonna give up his son. even if it means sacrificing himself. which he did do. i think Vader was already back on the road to redempption after theyre little father-son talk on Endor.

hey guys thorw down some of your own veiws so we can debate or agree with them.

-SIDIOUS LOST TO MACE, not on purpose, he lost (Keyword Lost)

Literally, he did lose. Whether he meant to or not isn't clear. The idea that he was baiting Mace just seems a bit too far-fetched, but it is possible that he made full use of Anakin once the boy appeared.


-Dooku lost to anakin because he was told to, that victory had nothing to do with anakin being stronger

I agree. It's implied in the script, and it's evident by the apparent change of how Dooku dealt with Skywalker. He gave ground before him, told him to use his anger, never used the Force on him (Despite the fact that he owned Obi-Wan using the Force). The entire fight seemed and most likely was thrown by Dooku.


- in the classics Skywalker could never beat Vader if he actually tried.

This is pretty obvious too. In ESB, Vader got pissed when Luke landed a blow and tore off Luke's hand in one quick move. In ROTJ, Vader seems to be easily taken off guarded and "defeated" by someone swinging their saber around like a bat. Vader is back on his knees, feebly fending off the swipes. He was goading Luke the entire time, pushing him towards the Dark Side. Then, when Luke stops attacking and Sidious shocks him, Vader is -right- up on his feet. Plus the fact that Vader is immensely strong (as seen in the beginning of ANH) blows away the idea that he was physically overcome by short, young Skywalker.


-Stop using midichlorains, age, and war experience arguements in one on one/whos is better duels

These ideas when used in duels are applicable if they can be properly proven and argued. If not, they are scapegoats and half-assed reasons for fanboys.


- although it pains me to say it, Luke and Leia were a mistake by Anakin


Yeah, they were. Anakin pulled a stupid face like "omfgwtfbbq ur preggers?!!!@@@!!"


- yoda didnt lose to sidious, it was a DRAW

A lopsided draw. Yoda couldn't gain the advantage and Sidious barely held it. The jedi decided to take off as opposed to trying to go straight up and face a Sith lord unarmed. But in a level playing field Yoda would defeat Sidious.


- Dooku didnt lose to yoda, he had to run because of death star plans
(although i think he would he would lost in a rematch)

He didn't lose in AOTC. Some say he was outclassed (as did the script I have heard) but to mne he held his own and was more efficient than Yoda, who looked like a top on crack.


-Maul died because of his idiotic overconfidence, not because obi-wan is stronger

Obi-Wan did pwn his ass for a bit and good, but Maul was probably better than Obi-Wan at this point. However, he wasn't smart enough to defend himself and he died. People who ***** about this should also ***** about the Sidious versus Four jedi masters fight, where three good jedi get punked in deaths that make this one seem legit.


- Anakin fell to the darkside because of his inablilty to be satisfied, and his fear of failure. (feel free to add on to that)

Anakin was emotional, attached, insecure, jealous, egotistical, proud, and had every sin you can think of under the sun. Add to the fact that he was probably artificially created by a former Sith lord and you have disaster. Viola!

ive heard about that. im not bashing it but, that jus seems really out there. it was a just a story about his master, and now people are taking it too seriously, and then somone came up with a theroy about anakin's backstory and the fact that he dosent have a father. i blame that on Lucas.

believe what you wanna believe but that theory does sound pretty far-fethced.

Then why did Lucas suggest it?

ohhh he did????? well........i have nothing to say then .

is it on the internet somewhere. if so can you tell me where

How can you say Yoda vs. Sidious was a draw? Watch the end of the duel.

Look at Sidious advantages:

Support
Knowledge of the terrain
Higher ground
Had a saber

Look at Yoda's advantages:

None

Look at Sidious' goals:

Defend himself from Yoda - Accomplished
Survive to run the Empier - Accomplished

Look at Yoda's goals:

Kill Sidious - Failed

knowlege huh? well i dont know how much knowledge of the terrain you need to throw pods at a little green gremlin. besides its a dome man.

yeah he said he lost, but that was to contiune the series and relate to his "dont underestimate the powes of the emperor quote"

also look how tiny he is, not to mention yoda has been in their a few times also.

im mean do you really think sidious would stay after the senate meeting, and think to himself:

Him this would a nice place to fight the jedi, I could throw pods and hey, its big enough. hmmmmmmmmmm not bad at all.


the overall outcome of the battle was a lost on yoda's part, but keep in mind he had and we all knew he was gonna lose.
the physical battle on the other had was a obvious draw.

not bash or ridicule you but lets discard the knowlegde of terrain reason.

Dudes.

I just checked out Books-a-Million and read the SW comics...

...and whether or not its a crappy story or not, Maul was alive!

it was a pretty gay story, about how maul got robot legs, another double-bladed saber, but it wasn't completely pointless.

Maul was attacking baby Luke, and Obi-Wan jumps out of the sand and defends Luke.

Of course, Obi kicks his ass, but it was interesting nonetheless to see Obi looking halfway between Ewan McGreggor and Alec Guiness.

ive heard of it, nothing but discredit to maul. and the story looks like a waste of time.

Originally posted by Fishy
And why the hell can't we use war experience as an argument? Wars make you more powerful you know... They force you to train and fight..

No they do not.. Wars have nothing to do with being stronger...

Uhh yea they do.
Prime example. Obi-Wan...
On Genosis, he was alright, but was easily bested by Mace, Yoda, ect. The classic masters.
But during the Clone Wars he was the go-to guy, the General, the major war hero. And what did that do? Shot him up above Mace and Yoda as best Jedi Duelist...
Mace was good but he wasn't THAT good. Sidious bested him pretty quickly and had time to mess with him so Anakin would fall...
Yoda was never a fighting Jedi. His lightsaber skills were quick, but he always ended up relying on his superior foce powers to get him through. And Sidious won.

Obi on the other had was awesome, Bested both GG and Anakin by using his brain. AND his superior experience....
He did get messed with by Dooku, but I'm holding out that it was because he was relying on Anakin do to something, which he didn't and was smacked...

The word 'fanboy' ring a bell? Obi-Wan superior to Yoda and Mace?

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
The word 'fanboy' ring a bell? Obi-Wan superior to Yoda and Mace?

In saber technique? Yeah, I'd have to say Obi-wan is. Maybe not the best Jedi overall, but he was still one of the best and strongest Jedi they had, and probably definitely the best duellist -- hell, he was one of a very few number of Jedi who'd ever had any real duelling experience. Watch the movies again, something I'd advise for most everyone in here....

And you calling Tpt a fanboy? Wow, I don't even know where to go with how wrong that is.....

Who considered Obi better than Mace and Yoda? Mace and Yoda were asked to fight also, Mace and Yoda practically decimated half of the Seperatist attack group on Coruscant by themselves. If anything, they were too busy in the Temple and Obi seemed more easily expendable, as horrible as that sounds. Maybe Obi-Wan was just a better strategist, but he can't Force-Grip troop transports and pick up 1,000 Droidekas at once, Yoda can.

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
No they do not.. Wars have nothing to do with being stronger...

Yes they do. Wars have everything to do with being stronger. Would you rather face a guy who had trained in military ways for ten years or a guy who had survived dozens of skirmishes, ambushes, and full scale battles for ten years? A man who'd killed countless enemies using wit, guile, and skill born of necessity. A man for whom everday was a struggle to survive? War forces people to evolve, to adapt to their situations and become whatever they must to live through them. If you have ever seen someone before a war and after, the difference is almost frightening. The creak of a stair sends them almost shooting to their feet, until they realize that it isn't an armed soldier. It's their six year-old cousin. War enhances your reflexes, improves your awareness, and in the end, turns you into a bringer of death. So please. Don't try and tell me that war doesn't make you stronger. 'The strong will survive'. You ever hear that?

God DAMN
I used Obi as an EXAMPLE of how War experience effects dueling prowess.

Originally posted by Lana
In saber technique? Yeah, I'd have to say Obi-wan is. Maybe not the best Jedi overall, but he was still one of the best and strongest Jedi they had, and probably definitely the best duellist -- hell, he was one of a very few number of Jedi who'd ever had any real duelling experience. Watch the movies again, something I'd advise for most everyone in here....

And you calling Tpt a fanboy? Wow, I don't even know where to go with how wrong that is.....

I suppose the fanboy statement was uncalled for. I apologize.

However, I have my doubts that Obi-Wan is the best duelist in the Order. He got taken out by Dooku in under thirty seconds twice. Yoda had Dooku retreating, struggling to stay alive, after about that much time. Mace Windu, if you've read Shatterpoint, does some incredible things with a lightsaber, and even with his own fists. And even Anakin may be considered superior to Obi-Wan, if only by a minor margin. Kenobi's saber technique may be useful in situations of mass havoc, such as the battlefields of the Clone Wars, but Mace and Yoda exceed him by far when it comes to straight up lightsaber duels.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Yes they do. Wars have everything to do with being stronger. Would you rather face a guy who had trained in military ways for ten years or a guy who had survived dozens of skirmishes, ambushes, and full scale battles for ten years? A man who'd killed countless enemies using wit, guile, and skill born of necessity. A man for whom everday was a struggle to survive? War forces people to evolve, to adapt to their situations and become whatever they must to live through them. If you have ever seen someone before a war and after, the difference is almost frightening. The creak of a stair sends them almost shooting to their feet, until they realize that it isn't an armed soldier. It's their six year-old cousin. War enhances your reflexes, improves your awareness, and in the end, turns you into a bringer of death. So please. Don't try and tell me that war doesn't make you stronger. 'The strong will survive'. You ever hear that? very good point, very very good point. you proved me wrong

by watching the movies you came to the conclusion that obi is a better lightsaber duelist then mace and yoda.

-obi wan go raped by dooku twice
-yoda beat dooku the first time
-he obvioulsy couldnt stand against sidious
-as far as experience goes, with that in mind do you think obi-wan could create his own lightsbaer style and be the only one to succesfuly master it.
-mace windu defeated sidious, there was no toying involved in that fight. because sidious knew that if anakin didnt show up he would be dead. watch that duel again mace is the superior.
and the only one, because of his lightsbaer style, actually capable of beating sidious.
-lucas said it himself mace and yoda are the 2 most powerful jedi in the galaxy in force power, and saber dueling.


and how does the fact that he was war hero make him the best jedi duelist all of a sudden. who did he duel during that whole war before ROTS. and i dont see how he was the go-to guy when the war spread all across the galaxy.
if obi-wan can crush super battle droids with his hands, lift hundreds of droidekas and take out troop transports while still in the air. then he is the greatest jedi by far.