Street Tourney Match #3

Laminator_X

Wow, this is a cool match up.

First thing, Digi correct me if I'm wrong but I think you shorted my strength in the description above. Dreadstar's sword is amping Benedict's already superhuman strength, not Vanth's normal human body. Benedict 's normal strength is enough to chop down trees with one slash from a broadsword and throw another warrior 20 yards with one arm. Benedict's strength times ten will be significantly more than Dreadstar's tonnish range.

Second, The frozen north is actually not a terrain advantage for TBK Ben Dreadcrawler posseses Dreadstar's experience of growing up orphanned in the frozen wastes his frozen homefowld of Byfrexia. He spent his adolescence and young-adult life hunting decimating the population of enourmous Snow Bears of the variety that ate his parents before his very eyes. Years later he fought a guerilla war in the exact same environment. TBK's senses are superior, but Benedict's are still slightly superhuman.

Ben Dreadcrawler's openning move is four quick teleports in rapid sucession in random directions, then laying a trail of footprints through the snow heading for a good ambush spot. He then boobytrapt that ambush spot with a hi-ex grenade. He'll then teleport to a position where he could snipe the boobytrap spot and place his rifle so that the barrel is just slightly visable out from cover. Then he'll close his suit's environmental seals (he's doing this to hide his body heat and fog from his breath, but it'll conceal his scent well too). A super-strong nightcrawler leap-flip or two and he'll be waiting in an upwind + up a tree double ambush spot, waiting for HBK to "see through his trap." When he atacks the sulfur smelling bush that has my rifle by it. I'll tag him with my Radium Laser.

Whirlysplatt

I have aproblem I loved Epic comics andDreadstar most of all

jinzin

it's not even the frozen part that gives me the advantage it's the fact that we're in a wooded area and it's dark... this is where THE BIG KAHUNA thrives.....

*also it should be pointed out at this time that wolverine's been known to use his senses and pinpoint where nightcrawler's gonna appear as soon as his bamf opens up in another area...wolverine reacted to it so fast that he pretty much literally nailed NC before NC had a chance to retaliate as he was coming out on the other side of his bampf....

what we learn from this... nightcrawlers teleportation doesn't fool wolverine's senses as newer teleport bampfs make a stronger scent...
you won't fool THE BIG KAHUNA'S senses...just annoy him and prolong the inevitable...

you also better not bampf too much as it will wear you down...*

in other words..I'm going to completely bypass your traps and go staight for you...as the last thing you did was teleport into a boobytrap spot...

NOW, how you think you're going to locate me as I'm closing in on you is quite beyond me... I'm in stealth mode..you can't see me... I might even be coming from the trees... and I'm (once again) good enough to get the drop on wolverine for an entire night in a game of cat and mouse without him being able to even see me, smell me, or hear me.......

Now when I do find you I speed blitz your ass before you even know what hits you by going X2 speed and suddenly you've just had your head chopped off... even if you DO somehow survive..you've just abandoned part of your arsenal in a trap that didn't work...

p.s. I can even use my symbiote to lure you into a counter booby trap if I feel like toying with you...ut that's just an option...

leonidas

i've not been following this tourny much -- too damn much work piling up these last weeks -- but THIS match i will watch. i respect lam and jinzin's opinions on this forum more than i respect most, so this should make for a great match up. the amalgams are also both well constructed! have at it!!

jinzin

Originally posted by leonidas
i've not been following this tourny much -- too damn much work piling up these last weeks -- but THIS match i will watch. i respect lam and jinzin's opinions on this forum more than i respect most, so this should make for a great match up. the amalgams are also both well constructed! have at it!!

i don't wanna come off as gay or nothin...but....

aww the hell with it...

hug

Laminator_X

Originally posted by jinzin

what we learn from this... nightcrawlers teleportation doesn't fool wolverine's senses as newer teleport bampfs make a stronger scent...
you won't fool THE BIG KAHUNA'S senses...just annoy him and prolong the inevitable...

in other words..I'm going to completely bypass your traps and go staight for you...as the last thing you did was teleport into a boobytrap spot...

Ah, Jinzin, by your own words you just did fall for my trap! The whole point of that second teleport was to lure a stalker. He doesn't know about Kahuna's super-senses, but Nightcrawler's brimstone would be detectable by any normal good woodsman. He didn't teleport away from the faux rifle ambush, he jumped high & far into the trees. Your symbyote doesn't like heat, I doubt it'll react well to a concentrated radiation beam.

Originally posted by jinzin

NOW, how you think you're going to locate me as I'm closing in on you is quite beyond me... I'm in stealth mode..you can't see me... I might even be coming from the trees... and I'm (once again) good enough to get the drop on wolverine for an entire night in a game of cat and mouse without him being able to even see me, smell me, or hear me.......

As for seing you coming, Ben's got low light optics on top of his Amberite's eyes. Moonlight might as well be daylight. Stalking Wolvie in a city where there're a million different noises and smells all around isn't as impressive a feat as you're making it out to be. It's a lot harder to sneak out here.

Originally posted by jinzin

you also better not bampf too much as it will wear you down...*

I appreciate your concern, but being worn down is not something I need to be worried about. Benedict's body is so much more robust than Kurt's that the strain would take far longer to accumulate.

Originally posted by jinzin

Now when I do find you I speed blitz your ass before you even know what hits you by going X2 speed and suddenly you've just had your head chopped off... even if you DO somehow survive..you've just abandoned part of your arsenal in a trap that didn't work...

Taskmaster's "speed blitz" is also something about which Ben Dreadcrawler not be concernedneed. Some kung-fu movie moves at double-speed may be enough to edge-out Sunset Bain's hot bodygaurd, but he cant do anything he wants at double speed, just those moves. Frankly you're facing someone who's already faster than any human, and quite accustommed to fighting and defeating other supernatural beings, even small armies of them.

And for the latter part, once again: you went for the second teleport spot! evil face

DigiMark007

Vanth's notes were just what the sword did. It should beassumed that it upgrades the entire amalgam, not just Vanth. Sorry for the confusion.

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Ah, Jinzin, by your own words you just did fall for my trap! The whole point of that second teleport was to lure a stalker. He doesn't know about Kahuna's super-senses, but Nightcrawler's brimstone would be detectable by any normal good woodsman. He didn't teleport away from the faux rifle ambush, he jumped high & far into the trees. Your symbyote doesn't like heat, I doubt it'll react well to a concentrated radiation beam.

actually no....i didn't "fall for your trap" roll eyes (sarcastic)

you're just assuming that I did.... I got the fact that you teleported and THEN jumped back and up.... what I'm saying is... I can use that last teleportation to track the general location of where you're at.. then scope you out for the rest and (as I said before) completely bypass your traps and instead just go for you....I understood your argument..I adapted and overcame it... you apparenlty didn't understand mine..maybe I should have been more clear.... i'm bypassing those traps and going for you... there...better?

Originally posted by Laminator_X
As for seing you coming, Ben's got low light optics on top of his Amberite's eyes. Moonlight might as well be daylight. Stalking Wolvie in a city where there're a million different noises and smells all around isn't as impressive a feat as you're making it out to be. It's a lot harder to sneak out here. .

and in turn daylight might as well be night-time... stealth mode.....=.......TBK's freakin invisable... unless you can see something that's invisable that can cover it's hosts body heat... you ain't seeing shiiiit....lol....and yes stalking wolverine is impressive when you get close enough to touch him several times whoutout him even being able to react to them... I mean give the guy some credit..he tracked a kid down that lived on the opposite side of new york city..he's got skills in the wild, city or anywhere else.. sabretooth's for the purposes of stalkin however, are better....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Taskmaster's "speed blitz" is also something about which Ben Dreadcrawler not be concernedneed. Some kung-fu movie moves at double-speed may be enough to edge-out Sunset Bain's hot bodygaurd, but he cant do anything he wants at double speed, just those moves. .

actually he can do any moves he wants... he's not an untrained fighter... he just needed the double time to see someone move that fast so he could use muscle memory to get the speed down... if he was only limited to other people's moves PERIOD he'd have a very pathetic fightin ability.... unfortunately for you however that's not the case..
even so... I have speed and reflexes that were nearly on par with spidey before the gov upgrades in sabretooth.....then...he surpassed them WITH THE upgrades.... NOW he's got the venom symbiote... I'm pushing the bar as it is on speed... add double time onto my body in that mix and I'll be slicing dicing, and decpitating you so fast you literally won't know what hit you...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Frankly you're facing someone who's already faster than any human, and quite accustommed to fighting and defeating other supernatural beings, even small armies of them.

good thing I'm not "any human" eh?

armies? pffft. please... sabretooth alone is better than wolverine who stomps armies supernatural or other like it's a dayjob... add in the rest of my composite amalgam..and TBK is not impressed....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
And for the latter part, once again: you went for the second teleport spot! evil face

ummmmm no....no I didn't.. remember I bypassed your shiznit... wink

Laminator_X

Oh, and thanks for the props Leo. "Eat hardy at your breakfast, my Hoplites, for tonight we dine in Hades's hall!"

Laminator_X

Alright Jinzin, In the interests if a friendly debate, I'll accept you not falling for my clever double trap. However you're still not getting the drop on me.

You kind of know where I went, but I'm upwind remember? You won't know my exact location either. Here you come through the trees (unless you're conceeding the high ground). Doing that silently just isn't possable. Limbs bow under our weight. Needles rustle, snow falls to the ground. And you're not invisable, no one is.

Are you attacking? If so how, or are you lying in wait hoping I give you an openning?

Re: the double speed thing, I think you're misunderstanding just how Taskmaster works. He can copy moves but only as he sees them. He can even integrate different styles fairly seemlesly. Your amalgam could even stand the strain that oulling that trick places on the body better than TM can. However he's still just a mimic. He's clever enough to always get away, but when he actually tries to go on the offensive against a real combat genius (like when Elektra schooled him or when he failed to assasinate Cap) he cant hang. At any rate, like you say Venom's probably already faster than that. Don't think Tasky watching movies on FF means BK can move at double Venom's speed. That's not how TM's reflexes work.

Since noone else seems to quite appreciate the magnitude of Benedict's skills, and Dreadstar's pretty obscure too, I'll post some scans/excerpts tomorrow night so everyone can see what we're dealing with here. Sorry, I don't have time tonight.

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Alright Jinzin, In the interests if a friendly debate, I'll accept you not falling for my clever double trap. However you're still not getting the drop on me. You kind of know where I went, but I'm upwind remember? You won't know my exact location either. Here you come through the trees (unless you're conceeding the high ground). Doing that silently just isn't possable. Limbs bow under our weight. Needles rustle, snow falls to the ground. And you're not invisable, no one is.

what do you mean I'm not invisible? was that one of the fight rules I missed? if it's not I'm still striding around invisable.....

dammit.... no matter.... i CAN still sneak up on you... (if I wanted) consider wolverine's infiltration on daredevil's house...

"he can hear, smell, taste, and touch better than anyone on the planet. black widow said he could hear a pin drop from a block away and she wasn't smiling either. a pin from a block. your breath from a mile. that's how careful we have to be as we slip into this way-too-tidy place he lives in..... quiter than a pin dropping."

Now consider wolverine's reaction to sabretooth stalking him... "he better at this game then I am...."

I'm not some blundering idiot...I have the finesse and agility of spiderman with the training and instincts of sabes... you'd be lucky to hear me coming at all....period...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Are you attacking? If so how, or are you lying in wait hoping I give you an openning? .

well since you asked....both.... I'm snaking tendrils out towards you to try and immobilize you... if that doesn't work it should at least drive you out to give me the opening... thing is you don't know where I'm coming from as my tendrils are seemingly coming from all around you..and that's IF you caught on to them before they have a chance to kill/incapacitate you...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Re: the double speed thing, I think you're misunderstanding just how Taskmaster works. He can copy moves but only as he sees them. He can even integrate different styles fairly seemlesly. Your amalgam could even stand the strain that oulling that trick places on the body better than TM can. However he's still just a mimic. a mimic that's been enhanced further by greater speed and reflexes...and then upgraded further by a symbiote.. and of course he can only COPY moves as he see's them..that has nothing to do with application of speed though.

Originally posted by Laminator_X
He's clever enough to always get away, but when he actually tries to go on the offensive against a real combat genius (like when Elektra schooled him or when he failed to assasinate Cap) he cant hang

you're forgetting this is an amalgam with sabretooth's level 7 fighting skills.... something elektra would be hard pressed to compete with... AND venom's symbiotic cleverness.... I'm not exactly orthodox myself.. i can be in the middle of a slugfest and shoot tendrils all the sudden out of nowhere....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Don't think Tasky watching movies on FF means BK can move at double Venom's speed. That's not how TM's reflexes work.

they go double speed.. which is enhanced by the symbiote.... it's not hard to understand.. your whole prayer or hope or wahtever relies on the fact that the symbiote doesn't increase speed and reflexes of the host...which it does.. this tactic will work just fine wink

TwisterGameX

Good so far, I will vote when i see more.

stormfront13

I'm gonna vote for jinzin

Laminator_X

Actually yes, Invisibility was banned.

Also, on the matter of speed, I respectfully disagree. BK is extremely fast, but Taskmaster's reflexes would only allow him to copy moves as they were performed. The Saber+symbiote reflexes and body would allow him to copy super-fast moves without injuring himself, but that's a very different thing then doing any move he want's at double speed.

Nice attack, sleep and work in the morning are calligng me, expect my riposte tomorrow evening. Yaaahh!

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Actually yes, Invisibility was banned.

Also, on the matter of speed, I respectfully disagree. BK is extremely fast, but Taskmaster's reflexes would only allow him to copy moves as they were performed. The Saber+symbiote reflexes and body would allow him to copy super-fast moves without injuring himself, but that's a very different thing then doing any move he want's at double speed.

Nice attack, sleep and work in the morning are calligng me, expect my riposte tomorrow evening. Yaaahh!

I disagree.... if all he could do was copy moves, instead of copy styles, techniques, etc altogether... he probably wouldn't have been able to slip into startk HQ as the only acrobatic tricks he would know would be limited to what he's seen... and he wouldn't be able to adapt to the lazor sensors...which he did do by the way....
gnight man.

TwisterGameX

Hmmm...can i vote for both ?

jinzin

Originally posted by TwisterGameX
Hmmm...can i vote for both ?

what would be the point? confused

TwisterGameX

Originally posted by jinzin
what would be the point? confused

I know, but both so good, I can't choose. embarrasment

Dizzle

Originally posted by TwisterGameX
Hmmm...can i vote for both ?

We can do that? I vote 50 times for Jinzin, and 50 times for Laminator.

So far, I've seen nothing that really gives either one a real leg up over the other. One of you is walking out of this fight bloody and massively wounded, while the other's dead. I'm just not sure which one would pull it off more...

That site Laminator gave did have a sweet quote for Benedict though...
"I fear Benedict." Hahahaha, I love it.

8bitChris

I'm not leaning either way right now.

jinzin

Originally posted by Dizzle
We can do that? I vote 50 times for Jinzin, and 50 times for Laminator.

So far, I've seen nothing that really gives either one a real leg up over the other. One of you is walking out of this fight bloody and massively wounded, while the other's dead. I'm just not sure which one would pull it off more...

That site Laminator gave did have a sweet quote for Benedict though...
"I fear Benedict." Hahahaha, I love it.

well I got an enhanced healing factr backed up by a symbiotic healing factor so if it comes down to how can take more punishment... i'll go with TBK everytime.... and that's IF he gets hit...

Dizzle

Originally posted by jinzin
well I got an enhanced healing factr backed up by a symbiotic healing factor so if it comes down to how can take more punishment... i'll go with TBK everytime.... and that's IF he gets hit...

I definitely meant that I was undecided, as this is pretty freaking close. But whatever melts your butter, really. My own ignorance might be helping Lam here... Benedict and Vanth both sound like badasses to the extreme, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt in both skill and his ranger-ish abilities. I could be completely wrong here, but I also don't want to vote AGAINST him because I simply don't know the full scope of his powers.

(actually, now that we're here, some feats for durability and strength for Benedict would be nice... I accept his skill level because he's called "weapon master" like 6 times, but I really have no idea how you'd stack against TBK in a brawl)

jinzin

Originally posted by Dizzle
I definitely meant that I was undecided, as this is pretty freaking close. But whatever melts your butter, really. My own ignorance might be helping Lam here... Benedict and Vanth both sound like badasses to the extreme, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt in both skill and his ranger-ish abilities. I could be completely wrong here, but I also don't want to vote AGAINST him because I simply don't know the full scope of his powers.

(actually, now that we're here, some feats for durability and strength for Benedict would be nice... I accept his skill level because he's called "weapon master" like 6 times, but I really have no idea how you'd stack against TBK in a brawl)

how could he? what's he going to do? shoot me? good luck with that.. stab me? TBK can take dozens of mortal wounds and heal AND keep fighting without missing a beat...up close I have my choice of webbing, symbiotic tendrils.. double speed. or just taking his assault point blank and gutting him for his troubles...

jplatinum

Jinzin wins.
For this battle, he has superior speed, strength, agility, firepower, and killer instinct.
That sword is the only thing he really has to worry about and I doubt that will be a real problem.

Jinzin wins.

wolverine8888

well venom win hands down vs night crawler

8bitChris

I'm voting Jinzin for now.

Khellendros

Lam, you need to get on the ball posting feats for Vanth and Benedict. Even I'M like this close to voting for jinzin.

jinzin

Originally posted by wolverine8888
well venom win hands down vs night crawler

eek!

WOLVIE8888 how the hell have you been buddy?!?!

leonidas

hmm, let's see if i have the scenario painted in my head properly:

lam tries to lure jin into a trap/traps. jin recognizes it, avoids the traps, and . . . what? jumps into a tree somewhere near where he assumes lam's amalgam is?

IF that's right, i think this is where lam is saying jin can't be invisible -- going through all the leaves, landing on a branch, those will give jin's location away BEFORE jin can take him out. now, i don't know what lam's character will do with his knowledge . . .

if i'm misreading the situation, please let me know and clarify it for me. i really don't know how anyone can vote yet - no one's really gotten into a position yet to win. clarifying the scenario then explaining what you plan on doing will help me decide who to vote for.

TwisterGameX

I'm voting for Jinzin.

jplatinum

TX,
I'm finna check out your post tourney.

TwisterGameX

ENTER and say what you want.

Laminator_X

Hey woah, I go to work an every body starts voting for the other guy. Hang on folks, you'll get the next awesome installment tonight. This is why we have a week here. I don't have the luxury of posting in-depth tactical scenarios and feat lists while at work. Fear not, more Ben Dreadcrawler goodness is coming this evening.

Laminator_X

Ok, I just got home and my wife surprises me with tickets to a sneak preview of Corpse Bride. Sorry to keep everyone waiting, true believers. You'll hear from me later tonight. (Yes, I am a grown-up comic book geek with a family and a full time job. please be understanding. I still want to play to win, It'll just be a slower match than some of the others.)

Khellendros

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Ok, I just got home and my wife surprises me with tickets to a sneak preview of Corpse Bride. Sorry to keep everyone waiting, true believers. You'll hear from me later tonight. (Yes, I am a grown-up comic book geek with a family and a full time job. please be understanding. I still want to play to win, It'll just be a slower match than some of the others.)
Damn, Corpse Bride? I suppose your absence can be forgiven. THIS TIME. >_>

Laminator_X

OK here we go. First off I'd like to salute Jinzin for classily not burying the match with coments while I couldn't respond. Damn Jinzin, you're a real trooper!

Second, JP, I'm hurt man. I stuck up for you when everyone was voting early in your match and this is how you repay me? Just the same, no hard feelings. Perhaps I'll yet change some minds here.

But enough of this. Now I bring it! First, Ben Dreadcrawler's much anticipated response to Big Kahuna's cunning tendril attack. I'll follow this with scan and quote installments so that our esteemed readers can gain appreciation of the force of nature that is this amalgam. On to the ownage!

When we last saw our hero he was up a tree beset on all sides by Kahuna's dagnasty tendrils.

Dreadcrawlerdives to the side towards the tendrils, fanning his Radium Laser in a wide arc before him, just to give BK a taste of the Radiation burn poisoning fun.

He grabs a (now stumpy) tendril and then BANF! teleports them both two miles (3.2km) up and then BANF! ports himself back to the ground, leaving Big Kahuna stunned and in freefall. This is Nightcrawler's upper limit on vertical BAMF's, and it wipes Kurt out to this. Ben will feel the hurt, but his far greater endurance healing factor will have him (and Kahuna, of course) back in fighting shape well before Kahuna gets back anywhere near ground level.

So, Kahuna's 3200 meters up and falling. Critical airspeed for a human body is around 55m/s link, a little over 120MPH. Unless he tries to tendril himeself a parachute or something, he'll take a bit over a minute to fall to earth

In that time, Dreadcrawler is going to manifest his Sword (scans to follow). He'll spend some time emptying his RadLase's powercell blasting his own blade for a big energy powerup., Then he'll reload.

When Kahuna gets within a few hundred meters of ground level, Ben Dreadcrawler throws a Flash Bang grenade up at him. Not too close, just close enough for hand granades and timed just right for no throwback. Benedict's millenia of army life (feat post to follow) allows him to do this perfectly. FLASHBANG! What would normally be a nice set-up for a serious coup de grace will be uber-effective against Kahuna, thanks to Sabertooth's hyper-senses and Venom's weakness to sonic attacks! (This'll still work just fine if he parachute's, I'll just have more time to prepare)

And now for that coup de grace: I will now blast the living bajeezis out of the Big Kahuna with my sword's energy blasts. These blasts shatter boulders without ebsorbing beams for a powerup. They blow holes in spaceship hulls when they're juiced (again scans to follow, I'll stay up late tonight evil face

). Between free-fall and the stun grenade, BK'll be in no position to dodge. Then just for kicks, I'll hit him again with both the sword blast and the laser. And again. Then he'll hit the ground. Hard (or less hard if he makes the 'chute. OTOH, if he does that, I'll get to shoot him some more evil face

) !

BK's tough enough to regenerate from this sort of mega assault, but I think I've shredded him enough to get the win. If not, I'll grenade and blast his maimed charred mass until he stops twitching.

Now, excuse me while I fire up the scanner...

jinzin

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, let's see if i have the scenario painted in my head properly:

lam tries to lure jin into a trap/traps. jin recognizes it, avoids the traps, and . . . what? jumps into a tree somewhere near where he assumes lam's amalgam is?

IF that's right, i think this is where lam is saying jin can't be invisible -- going through all the leaves, landing on a branch, those will give jin's location away BEFORE jin can take him out. now, i don't know what lam's character will do with his knowledge . . .

if i'm misreading the situation, please let me know and clarify it for me. i really don't know how anyone can vote yet - no one's really gotten into a position yet to win. clarifying the scenario then explaining what you plan on doing will help me decide who to vote for.

nope...I'm just letting my enhanced senses lead me to the general location of where he last teleported... from there my enhanced senses can still deduce where he went afterwards.... so I'm not jumping out of a tree persay... just sending my venom tendrils over to where he's at... the tendrils can travel virtually un-noticed... from there I either tendril him and snap his neck, suffocate him, or yank him outwards.. even if all it does is alert him to my presence and he gets away, I've already driven him out of his sniper spot...... if he goes into hiding again.. we'll just repeat the process...

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
OK here we go. First off I'd like to salute Jinzin for classily not burying the match with coments while I couldn't respond. Damn Jinzin, you're a real trooper!

it was tough but thanks... I do try... wink

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Dreadcrawlerdives to the side towards the tendrils, fanning his Radium Laser in a wide arc before him, just to give BK a taste of the Radiation burn poisoning fun.

okay I'm not entirely sure what your doing here.. I mean...my tendrils are slithering up multiple tree branches and such to get to you... if you leap to one side and shoot a wide arch you off a few of them (mostly because at this point it's pretty hard to miss a tendril as they are surrounding you.... but the other one's on your flanks and at your rear are still coming to get you... (these tendrils are so ninja that they snaked up blazes leg through his coat onto his hand and around the trigger of his gun without him noticing... so you can understand my surprise at your ability to pick them off before they get to you... What the f**k?

Originally posted by Laminator_X
He grabs a (now stumpy) tendril and then BANF! teleports them both two miles (3.2km) up and then BANF! ports himself back to the ground, leaving Big Kahuna stunned and in freefall. This is Nightcrawler's upper limit on vertical BAMF's, and it wipes Kurt out to this. Ben will feel the hurt, but his far greater endurance healing factor will have him (and Kahuna, of course) back in fighting shape well before Kahuna gets back anywhere near ground level.
So, Kahuna's 3200 meters up and falling. Critical airspeed for a human body is around 55m/s link, a little over 120MPH. Unless he tries to tendril himeself a parachute or something, he'll take a bit over a minute to fall to earth

nope.... your theory falls apart right here.... even IF I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and you DO see the tendrils.... and you DO bamf us up there... i need no parachute... it's as simple at this.... spiderman when in similar situations as made batwings with his webbing... guess what I'm about to do....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
When Kahuna gets within a few hundred meters of ground level, Ben Dreadcrawler throws a Flash Bang grenade up at him. Not too close, just close enough for hand granades and timed just right for no throwback. Benedict's millenia of army life (feat post to follow) allows him to do this perfectly. FLASHBANG! What would normally be a nice set-up for a serious coup de grace will be uber-effective against Kahuna, thanks to Sabertooth's hyper-senses and Venom's weakness to sonic attacks! (This'll still work just fine if he parachute's, I'll just have more time to prepare)

okay two things wrong with this... first off you're assuming you're going to be able to see me and what I'm doing without the same in return.... nope..not gonna happen.... with my superior eyesight.... I'll just scope you out...if I see you starting to do anything other than standing and waiting for my arrival I ditch the batwings for a webbing parchute that my symbiote can hold onto while I use my bullseye presicion aiming to let lose with my baretas.... I'm not entirely sure how you think you're going to have any leisure time to get prepared for what you're saying you're going to do when I'm raining bullets, webbing, or energy shields upon you.... you duck behind a tree I energy sheild the mofo to chop it down and start shooting at you after you're in plain sight... you try to run accross on opening I let loose with webbing... simply put..... you won't have time...and you'll be under tons of pressure...

now onto the flashbang..... if you hit me with it, it wouldn't do much.. it would disable the symbiote for a moment IF it does anything at all... IF

my proof you ask?

shriek let lose with a full on scream at venom and he marched head on into it... unfortunately because he was already weakened from his previous fight with carnage in a burning house he stopped just short of getting to her...your flashbang isn't a continously pouring attack like shrieks scream so I'm not worried.....not only thatbut brock was fine after the assualt and only got put down cause carnage came in and booted his non-symbiote-covered noggin..... as far as my hyper senses go... unless you want TBK to go into a berserker rage where his physical nature and stats increase even further and his acknolwedgement of pain decreases a great deal while his fighting ability gets better etc etc... i would suggest you not to do that... remember I can heal MULTIPLE mortal wounds in seconds.. a grenade designed to stun me will just piss me off...(againl..... IF it does anything at all...IF it hits me in the first place..which it won't as I'm about to explain)....sorry bra...

and not the ultimate reason that won't do any good... IF you throw that sucker up at me... I shred the parachute strings and go into freefall COMPLETELY BYPASSING your attack yet again.... wolverine jumped out of a shield hellicarrier into the beam of a skyscraper and just got up.. tbk's more durable and now has a venom symbiote what little fall I have left when I get within your throwing distance won't be even noticed by tbk...literally I'll just get up without even caring... (wolverine also went on a freefall 11 stories and got up at a full sprint...)..TBK's better and more durbable than that by multiple times over...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
And now for that coup de grace: I will now blast the living bajeezis out of the Big Kahuna with my sword's energy blasts. These blasts shatter boulders without ebsorbing beams for a powerup. They blow holes in spaceship hulls when they're juiced (again scans to follow, I'll stay up late tonight evil face

) !

one you didn't exactly have time to charge it up... two you didn't hit me with the flashbang... three if you did, it didn't do anything but make me mad.. and four I'm now on the ground and fully capable of dodging the shit out of your pathetic blasts... not only that but I have an energy sheild to boot... I can just as easily deflect the blasts as much as I can dance circles around them....

venom dodges blasts like that all the time against the jury and such...
sabretooth's moved so fast he looked like he had vanished after bullets where fired in his direction.... they never hit their mark...
taskmaster has to dodge multiple attacks of the sort when dealing with the avengers and dodged multiple gunfire when he had to infiltrate that mob-bosses headquarters..

now combine all that together... sorry but you ain't hitting shiiiiit.... nothing at all....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
BK's tough enough to regenerate from this sort of mega assault,
exactly.. eek!

your weapons aren't gonna do much to me even if they are direct hits... consider the fact that you just gave it a good try and hit nadda.... now you've reduced your arsenal and I'm still packin loads of weapons still fresh as a daisy....your best bet (for survival) is to run for your life...

Sentry

Jinzin's been dominating the posting. I'm gonna wait for a few more posts from Lam, then I'll vote. I'm leaning towards jinzin right now though I can tell you that. So come on Lam, post more strategies!

Laminator_X

Okay, scanner seems to be on the fritz. If need be I'll borrow a digica from work tomorrow night to get you those Dreadstar images. For now, I'll focus on benedict since that just requires text. I'll site both the Amber Novels themselves, as well as the Amber Diceless RPG. Page numbers for the novels will be from the Great Book of Amber (ISBN 0-380-80906), which collects all the novels in one volume.

Here's a link to a brief summary of the Amber novels. The Princes of Amber are this family of demigods who can walk between worlds and never age. They've all mastered various different pursuits, and contend with one another for the Throne. They're all mildly superhuman in physique and mind, and some far moreso in their chosen specialties/obsessions. Benedict has devoted his ageless existance to combat and war.

TTo quote the Amber Diceless RPG:

More to come.

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Okay, scanner seems to be on the fritz. If need be I'll borrow a digica from work tomorrow night to get you those Dreadstar images. For now, I'll focus on benedict since that just requires text. I'll site both the Amber Novels themselves, as well as the Amber Diceless RPG. Page numbers for the novels will be from the Great Book of Amber (ISBN 0-380-80906), which collects all the novels in one volume.

Here's a link to a brief summary of the Amber novels. The Princes of Amber are this family of demigods who can walk between worlds and never age. They've all mastered various different pursuits, and contend with one another for the Throne. They're all mildly superhuman in physique and mind, and some far moreso in their chosen specialties/obsessions. Benedict has devoted his ageless existance to combat and war.

TTo quote the Amber Diceless RPG:

More to come.

laughing out loud

all i gotta say to his fighting ability........

TASK-freakin-MASTER...whatever you have to offer...will soon be mine...nuff said wink

...also using a tactical strategy to win this fight isn't really at your advantage for two reasons... first being you'd have to live long enough to put it into action..and the second is because it's YOU that's setting up the scenarios and strategies here...

Laminator_X

OK! Here we go!

One: It doesn't matter wether you glide, parachute, or fall. Falling makes you easier to lead with the grnade, but that's all.

Two: Your're way beyond the range of those Barettas, Shields, and webbing until you're very near the ground. Your're three kilometer's up dude. With air drag, you'll reach the ground before any webbing could.

Three: I've got plenty of time. Falling three km will take you over a minute if you just dive the whole way. If you glide or para, I've got even more time.

Four: I will so flash-bang you! If you try the velocity change-up (nice idea by the way), I'll just throw another one. Heck, B.D.'s the kind of guy who'd expect that sort of trick and have the other stun grenade in hand. smile

Five: You WILL git hit! The point of the stun grenade is to get ready for this. Or course it's not enough to polish off the symbiote, but it'll stun you (again especially with Sabertooth's senses) for a moment. That brief moment of not dodging is all that's required to blast Big Kahuna to pieces. I'm not talking about bullets or a stab wounds here. I'm talking about enough power to blast a boulder the size of an elephant to gravel without a being powered up (Dreadstar Issue One Page six). Kahuna's certainly a good dodger. We both are. We could literally dodge eachother for hours out here. (If we go for the long game, this is gonna be a damn boring battle.) The whole point of this setup is that you'e got nowhere to go, nothing to push off of, no cover, and you've been momentarily blinded and deafenned, and concussed; and the blast is travelling at near lightspeed No one can dodge under those circumstances.

You're simply never making it to the groung in one piece.

Laminator_X

Taskmaster? Please. What's he seen me do so far? He aint seen nothin yet. Besides, like I said when Tasky tries to go on the offensive against a REAL-Master (Cap, Electra), he looses...every...time.

long pig

Are you seriously trying to h2h Taskmaster?

Laminator_X

I won't need to. This guy's never going to get anywhere near me unless I'm baiting him.

But, I stand by what I said about Taskmaster. He's great at making fools out of people who are trying to catch him and then splitting, but when he actually tries to stand and fight he looses.

I mean think about it, he probably knows Captain America's moves better than anyone else's, plus all his other stuff, and he still couldn't beat him.

He did get away though. smile

long pig

Hard choice....going to jinzin right now but we got a week, so impress me.

Laminator_X

Here's en excerpt with Corwyn, the hero of the novels, giving a "Respect Benedict" lecture to his sidekick.

This is coming from a guy who himself fought halfway up a winding mountain against an entire army coming the other way. Corwyn kills nasty monsters without breaking a sweat. Corwyn defeats Amber's Rival, The Courts of Chaos's Warmaster in about two paragraph when the meet near the end of the saga. During centuries he spent living on earth, Corwyn served under Napoleon, Lee, and MacArthur, and compares Benedict favorably to all of them. Corwyn's spent thousands of years contending and warring for the above mentioned throne. He would just give up straight away if Benedict wanted it.

T one point Corwyn is framed for the murder of Benedict's retainers. Benedict manages to chase Corwyn doen despite a days head start and Corwyn twisting worlds to hit him with a forest fire. When benedict finally corners him, after riding for days, he still completely dominates Corwyn, despide being missing his good arm at the time. He and his brother fence with broadswords (they're strong, fast, and tough anough to fence with broadswords) and he casually cuts down full trees as if they were bamboo when Corwyn tries to hide behind them. (Corwyn takes advantage of Benedict's rage to trip him up and escape, but you know, he's the protagonist)

Ah yes the arm. Benedict lost the arm in a moment of hesitation when he learned that the leader of a band of Beastriding Hellmaids out of Chaos was his former lover. Freshly amputated, he still manages to kill her, and her army. Days later, he leads the Armies Of Amber in defence against an assault of Wyvvern riding beast-men. He fights mounted with the reins tied around the still-fresh stump of his arm and his sword in his off-hand. Noone can touch him.

When it comes to combat, wether personal or mass, he is godlike, beyond the level we're usually even considering around here.

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
One: It doesn't matter wether you glide, parachute, or fall. Falling makes you easier to lead with the grnade, but that's all.

actually it does.... one, it gives me the oppurtunity to glide away from your ass if I so choose, two it allows me to rain things down upon you.... you are not out of my range as I am coming down towards you... I have a huge help from gravity at this point.... and 3 if I do fall I get right back up (you do know I can use my symbiote like a giant shield to absorbb the impact right?) and you know have ZERO time to prep for me to show up...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Two: Your're way beyond the range of those Barettas, Shields, and webbing until you're very near the ground. Your're three kilometer's up dude. With air drag, you'll reach the ground before any webbing could. nope onece again, I have gravity helping me out here.... and how the hell is TBK gonna hit the ground before the webbing does? What the f**k?

that's assuming I went freefall... if that's the case, then once again you've got little time to prep for my arrival...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Three: I've got plenty of time. Falling three km will take you over a minute if you just dive the whole way. If you glide or para, I've got even more time.
you only have that time IF I LET you have it... remember my symbiote can shapeshift into all sorts of shapes and sizes...I can form myself into an aerodynamic figure andmissile my way down towards you... I just have too many options to go with...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Four: I will so flash-bang you! If you try the velocity change-up (nice idea by the way), I'll just throw another one. Heck, B.D.'s the kind of guy who'd expect that sort of trick and have the other stun grenade in hand. smile

so your whole plan is that your character knows what I'm going to do before I do it? What the f**k?

last time you posted you were attempting to prep your sword WHILE getting your flashbang ready... now your pulling two out? which is it? huh

meh no matter... your only chance to flashbang me is a minute one.... thing is I got this nifty symbiote... chances are you missed me with that first one as if you tried to chuck it while I was gliding my symbiote stopped it before it could get to me... orrr I globbed a chunk of webbing in the opposite direction to stop it's momentum upwards and now it's succumbing to my webbing's velocity + gravity..... hell it's likely that plan could just as well work against you.

now I hit the ground and you have another one ready? fine....that's great I don't care.... using my photographic reflexes I already see what's comming by the time you even begin to toss the mofo...all of the sudden webbing's flying your way and you now have a flashbang stuck to your hand.....things are getting ugly....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Five: You WILL git hit!...immmm no...no I won't...unless your packing a throwing arm that can launch things faster than bullets in double time your not hitting jack....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
The point of the stun grenade is to get ready for this. Or course it's not enough to polish off the symbiote, but it'll stun you (again especially with Sabertooth's senses) for a moment. That brief moment of not dodging is all that's required to blast Big Kahuna to pieces. I'm not talking about bullets or a stab wounds here. I'm talking about enough power to blast a boulder the size of an elephant to gravel without a being powered up (Dreadstar Issue One Page six)... again I'd be impressed in other situations... here however I am not...venom BY HIMSELF has walked right through shrieks sonic scream... an attack that leveled a wherehouse, he faced off against a regiment of mace warriors all packing rockets and sonics and fire..AND HE WON... he did the same thing to the wild pack who had more of the same, he did the same thing to the sentry guards who had more of the same.... NOW I have even further enhanced durability and such from sabretooth.....who, because he's crazy and likes pain to some sextent probably won't be near as effected by and attacks that can damage my symbiote... proof you ask? certainly...

carnage totally ignored setting himself on fire because, and I quote... "I DON'T CARE!" now the sabretooth part o me is pissed off you are not going to hit me, and you certainly are not going to stop me even IF you did... chances are though...,I web the shit out of you before you can do anything with that sword.. or hell I just web the sword and launch it miles into the treeline... kinda funny how you ignored the fact that I have an energy shield altogether eh? wink

Originally posted by Laminator_X
and Kahuna's certainly a good dodger. We both are. We could literally dodge eachother for hours out here. (If we go for the long game, this is gonna be a damn boring battle.)

which you would lose thanks to me symbiotic tendrils, photographic reflexes, enhanced speed, double speed, mock spider sense, and superior healing factor, durabality and stamnina...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
The whole point of this setup is that you'e got nowhere to go, nothing to push off of, no cover, and you've been momentarily blinded and deafenned, and concussed; and the blast is travelling at near lightspeed No one can dodge under those circumstances.
as I already explained... that isn't quite accurate... as far as dodging.... guess you never heard of spiderman..... ? huh

my guys got faster reflexes, a mock spidey sense, and superior speed.... all I need to do is dodge one or two blasts... (or delfect them with my energy shield...then my photographic reflexes will pick up on what you're doing with the sword, dodging won't even be an issue for me.... again... I just have too many options...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
You're simply never making it to the groung in one piece.

well if I was stripped of my powers, my adamantium, my symbiote, my reflexes, my OPTIONS altogether.....you might have a point... wink

jinzin

again...master of arms.....pfffft... TASKMASTER! wink

leonidas

hmmm . . .

jinzin

Originally posted by leonidas
hmmm . . .

What the f**k?

still having a hard time deciding eh?

jinzin

sorry my last post has so many spelling errors guys.... I was kinda in a rush..... sad

Sentry

Jinzin gets my vote. Could change my mind before the week ends though. Lam your doing good, interesting stuff your posting.

DigiMark007

I think Benedict is probably more of a badass than we realize (In my opinion Drizzt didn't get enough respect last round either, but I'm biased there since I'm a fan) but this is still a good match. I wasn't familiar with much of Lam's stuff before this but I'm pleasantly surprised. Fortunately, I don't have to vote in these matches...because a lot of them would be a pretty rough decision.

And I like this match...no debates where I have to rush in and define soemthing so that everyone is happy.

jinzin

yeah, thus far everything as been pretty good as far as sportsmanship and compromise goes...

jplatinum

Jinzin,
who do you stand with?
The new alpowerful Duke-JP or TOAA?

Choose now, for he will try to persuade you to join him.

He has taken master dan and he will pay.
He will pay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jinzin

read my last post in the jp/jinz-vs. toaa thread to find out where i stand...

Nataku8188

Jinzin. Just too much for the poppy little bugger.

Whirlysplatt

This is a good match I know Jinz better and like him a lot but its equal at the moment.

zachrivard

i vote for X because he got a better amalgam

leonidas

<<This is a good match I know Jinz better and like him a lot but its equal at the moment.>>

i agree whirly. 2 things are slightly in jin's favor for me: the amount of damage he can absorb is quite a lot, and i'm not sure lam's able to do enough damage to really get in close to do the damage he needs -- ie the sword/decapitate jin. the other is -- as startegic as benedict would be in a book, he's ltd to lam's ability to plan. i don't doubt benedict himself could find a way to get to jin's character, but can lam? i'm not sure. slight edge to jin at the moment, but i'm patient and willing to hear a little more . . .

nice gentlemanly match -- nice to see no one crying foul or cjust plain crying like a baby.

Khellendros

Laminator. No way is Taskmaster fighting through a f*ckin army.

Laminator_X

Thank you, gentlemen. It's nice to know I'm not getting shut out here. Let's see if I can pick up a few more. Obviously I'm partisan here, bu Digi is correct, Benedict is Godlike in a fight and not getting enough respect. Benedict could fight Taskmaster for a week and never use the same move twice.

I'll first post some pics from Dreadstar comics so y'all can place his attacks in some better context. He could flay the flesh from Kahuna's bones just like that sentinal killed Wolverine on that famous X-Men Cover. Second, a physics lesson will be in order. I admire Jinzin's pluck for not wanting to fall into my clutches, (so to speak) but he's spouting some serious misinformation about the way falling with regaurds to gravity, drag, projectiles, and momentum. I'll do my best to correct this you all can see that his avoiding my attack is ludicrous.

About to eat dinner now, expect lots of little posts throughout the evening, instead of one or two huge ones, starting within the hour.

Laminator_X

OK, We'll start with Dreadstar's First appearance, albeit from off-panel. Here he is pulling off a standing pistol shot piercing one guy's head and another guy's heart in one shot.

Laminator_X

Here he is at the end of his original arc. He and the sorcerer in the background are buying time while the three chosen ones fire up the superweapon to blow up the Mily Way rather than let it be conquered by interplanetary genocidal strip-miners that've been slowly ruining things for millennia. Note that he's blocking multaple energy bolts while returning fire.

A note about these Radium Lasers. They fire radiation beams instead of light, and induce fatal radiation poisoning in a matter of hours. Vanth survived one thanks to his healing factor, but he was in a fevered coma for weeks. Kahuna's factor is many times better, I imagine he'll beat it in hours and never loose conciousness. Fighting it out should tax him though. If this were too turn into a looong battle. TBK won't be quite so light on his feet. Not to worry though, he'll be blasted out of the sky long before that would come up.

Laminator_X

Here's a pic from the first issue of Dreadstar. At this point Vanth has been living as a farmer in a new galaxy for several years. He comes across a boulder too big even for him to lift. So he manifests his sword for the first time in years, and reduces the bolder to gravel. This was without any sort of powerup.

Laminator_X

Here's another pic from the same issue, where months after his adopted home's destruction in a decades-spanning war, he's gathered a band of freedom fighters to end the conflict. At this point Vath's been doing plenty of blocking and blasting. In fact he's in space here after blasting his way out through the outer hull of a spacestation he was looting. Allso note that his armor is vacuum worthy.

The Big Kahuna could not survive a blast like this. Even if we grant that Venom's symbiote will put the pieces back together enough for Creed's healing factor to save him, the "ragged pieces of charred mead and tendril hanging from adamantium bones" periodwill count as a win for Dreadcrawler. This is the same standard we're applying to the vampires and such after all.

Laminator_X

Vanth is also an awesome close-in dodge-and-brawler. Of note is that he's doing this after having been clocked in the back of the head by a cyborg he thought was an ally, tortured for hours, electrocuted, and shot twice. This is all starting from a normal human body. This is the slowest dude in my amalgam. Still wonder about my guy avoiding BK's attacks? And, yes. Vanth collapses the building on top of the guy

DigiMark007

Is any of that with the "cosmic powerup" or whatever it was that Vanth had?

Laminator_X

Special bonus pic for anyone who think's Taskmaster's unbeatable:Cap knocking him off a building with his "ain't seen that before, Tasky" enegy shield.

Now I love Taskmaster. His mini-series ruled. I've been a TM fan all the way back to the second comic I ever bought,Avengers #223 . In this issue, Taskmaster gets his school broken up and driven away by Hawkeye and Ant-Man II. Think about that for just a moment. Not the whole team, just those two. They had zero prep, and Taskmaster was in his HQ with his goonsquad. He still couldn't take them down. He got away, and I love him for it. But he couldn't manage to beat these two low-powered heroes, one of whom he could already copy. (You can find an issue summary at Avengers Forever. Just pick the title and issue from the menus.)

Jiinzin's got Taskmaster in his amalgam, not Fanboy-Taskmaster. Remember the difference.

Laminator_X

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Is any of that with the "cosmic powerup" or whatever it was that Vanth had?

No! The BW images are from the Metamorphosis Odyssey short stories that were serialized in Epic Illustrated (Marvel's attempt to emulate the success of Heavy Metal). The color images are from Dreadstar's own comic issues one and ten. Dreadstar didn't get a powerup of any sort until issues 15 and 16, wherin the sword is shattered by a sustained attack on the blade itself by a cosmic level sorcerer, and Vanth's magician buddy fuses the essence of the blades magic with Vanth's body and soul to save his life from all the aging that was suddenly catching up with him. He later powers back down again after another 15 issues or so.

Here's a good link to a critique of Dreadstar's run.

Laminator_X

Now for the physics lesson.

Fisrt, there will be no gliding on a moonlit night in the frozen north. Gliders rely on rising warm air "thermals" to provide lift. While common along coasts, deasert canions, and the concrete jungle; no such air masses will be found above tundra or permafrost. The best Big Kahuna can hope for is a parachute type drop.

Second, there's the falling issue. Ben Dreadcrawler ported Big Kahuna two miler/10660 feet/3200 meters inti the air. Air drag will limit his fall speed to around 50meters/second. This figure is a bit slower than the terminal velocity for a normal person, but he's a got a lot more drag (being all furry andl tendrilly). Do the math, this will take him over a minute to fall with a maximum speed in that range. If he makes himself bullet shaped, he could fall faster. But if he lets gravity really accelerate him like that it'd be suicidal. I'll spare you the algebra, but if he goes for a bullet/raindrop shape, that adamantium skeleton of his will rip clean through his body/symbiote when he either impacts or tries some sort of last minute drag-chute type trick. Wolvie survived the helicarrier jump (which was from far less than 10000' as people were talking on deck rather than wearing breathing aparatus and parkas) because he was only falling at around 125miles per hour. "Bullet Kahuna" could get 3-4 times that fast at impact. Several dosen pounds or so of adamantium trying to stop in a hurry is many, many times more energy than the machinegun blasts and such that We've seen Venom stop by concentrating his symbiote. On top of this, an impact like that would liquify his brain against the front of his skull. Again, Creed with the symbiote could regenerate from that eventually, but this would still give Ben Dreadcrawler a win by count-out.

Finally there's this concept of shooting from these heights. Gravity will indeed pull bullets down with enough force to do damage (not that small arms could penetrate Vanth's armor in any case, but we'll go with it for now). There's no earthly way however that they could be targetted effectively over these distances and times. A bullet doesn't have enough momentum to continue in a remotely straight line over these distances (note that aircraft weapons have bullets bigger than bratwurst with higher muzzle velocities and they still aren't very acurate at these ranges). Add in friction, and those bullets will have fallen to sub-sonic speeds by the time the hit the ground: drifting even more and loosing the energy required to pierce B.D.'s armor on the miraculous occasion that one might hit him.

Webbing will similarly be useless because the webs greater surface area in relation to their mass give them a much higher drag coeficcient than does Big Kahuna himself. Their terminal velocity (maximun falling speed) is much lower than TBK's, They would lookl a lot like when you spit out of a moving car (though the situation isn't exactly the same).

As far as the energy shield goes, once Kahuna does get into range, and this is a fairly short range weapon, B.D. could absorb a slow-moving energy attack like that with his sword without even thinking about it.

My plan isn't ignoring Kahuna's options. The options that Jinzin thinks he has weren't really there at all.

If he free-falls, I nail him as I first described. If he bullet-dives, he's down for the count. If he parachutes, he cant dodge like he usually can, and I'll cut him apart at my leasure. There will be no gliding, beyond what a rectangular chute could do.

Behold Benedict's superior tactical mind in action. By skillful tactics, I've maneuvered the fight such that my physically superior-opponent can do nothing but get nailed.

Anyone care to change their votes now?

Laminator_X

One final retort before I hit the sack.

Spiderman can dodge wonderfully, but not when he cant push or pull against anything to change his velocity. TBK has no leverage in this situation, thus he can do nothing but tumble around his center of mass while moving in a "shoot me" constant direction

Also, your guy also has only slightly better speed and reflexes, my skill advantage more than overcomes this.

Finally, Taskmaster's shield is waaaayyyy underpowered to stop Vanth's sword. The red guy in the pic up above had a personal force field that was far above Shield/AIM tech, and Vanth eventually battered through it with a few good hits in a row. Here's a pic showing what Vanth does to most energy shields that don't have a spaceship engine backing them. Note the splitting-in-two.

G'night all.

8bitChris

I'm back to undecided.

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Here he is at the end of his original arc. He and the sorcerer in the background are buying time while the three chosen ones fire up the superweapon to blow up the Mily Way rather than let it be conquered by interplanetary genocidal strip-miners that've been slowly ruining things for millennia. Note that he's blocking multaple energy bolts while returning fire.

A note about these Radium Lasers. They fire radiation beams instead of light, and induce fatal radiation poisoning in a matter of hours. Vanth survived one thanks to his healing factor, but he was in a fevered coma for weeks. Kahuna's factor is many times better, I imagine he'll beat it in hours and never loose conciousness. Fighting it out should tax him though. If this were too turn into a looong battle. TBK won't be quite so light on his feet. Not to worry though, he'll be blasted out of the sky long before that would come up.

you not only need to hit me first... but you also need to get past that shield... and now I got two healing factors working simultaniously.... radiation poisioning's already proven to be a non-factor against logan, and sabes has a better healing factor than THAT.... don't know how it would effect the symbiote...but in the end this is all IF you hit me in the first place... IF you got past my energy shield.. IF my photgraphic reflexes didn't pick up on your movements, and IF my reflex speed wasn't altered to ridiculous extents... fact is.. you are not going to hit me with that thing...if you do chances are it's cause I'm already in close.. if that's the case.. it's already too late for your boy....

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Here's a pic from the first issue of Dreadstar. At this point Vanth has been living as a farmer in a new galaxy for several years. He comes across a boulder too big even for him to lift. So he manifests his sword for the first time in years, and reduces the bolder to gravel. This was without any sort of powerup.

is this supposed to be impressive? What the f**k?

to a guy with both the strength of venom and enhanced sabretooth? huh

sabretooth BEFORE his enhancements leveled a tree and a boulder like that....and that was back when he was still being stuck stat wise as a peak human... eek!

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Here's another pic from the same issue, where months after his adopted home's destruction in a decades-spanning war, he's gathered a band of freedom fighters to end the conflict. At this point Vath's been doing plenty of blocking and blasting. In fact he's in space here after blasting his way out through the outer hull of a spacestation he was looting. Allso note that his armor is vacuum worthy.

The Big Kahuna could not survive a blast like this. Even if we grant that Venom's symbiote will put the pieces back together enough for Creed's healing factor to save him, the "ragged pieces of charred mead and tendril hanging from adamantium bones" periodwill count as a win for Dreadcrawler. This is the same standard we're applying to the vampires and such after all.

I can't take that? again, shriek full on blasted venom (the same attack that leveled.....LEVELED I SAY a wherehouse, and it was a continous blast......also what kind of damage exactly do you think a juggernaught punch can inflict? huh

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Vanth is also an awesome close-in dodge-and-brawler. Of note is that he's doing this after having been clocked in the back of the head by a cyborg he thought was an ally, tortured for hours, electrocuted, and shot twice. This is all starting from a normal human body. This is the slowest dude in my amalgam. Still wonder about my guy avoiding BK's attacks? And, yes. Vanth collapses the building on top of the guy

taskmaster did nearly the same damn thing at the end of his mini, given nearly the same circumstances as well.... funny eh?

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Special bonus pic for anyone who think's Taskmaster's unbeatable:Cap knocking him off a building with his "ain't seen that before, Tasky" enegy shield.

Now I love Taskmaster. His mini-series ruled. I've been a TM fan all the way back to the second comic I ever bought,Avengers #223 . In this issue, Taskmaster gets his school broken up and driven away by Hawkeye and Ant-Man II. Think about that for just a moment. Not the whole team, just those two. They had zero prep, and Taskmaster was in his HQ with his goonsquad. He still couldn't take them down. He got away, and I love him for it. But he couldn't manage to beat these two low-powered heroes, one of whom he could already copy. (You can find an issue summary at Avengers Forever. Just pick the title and issue from the menus.)

Jiinzin's got Taskmaster in his amalgam, not Fanboy-Taskmaster. Remember the difference.

the same taskmaster that took down a team of avengers including captain marvel? What the f**k?

the same taskmaster that made the black tarantula look like a rank amateur?

the same taskmaster than now has his own energy shield to which he's now incorporated those moves...

the same taskmaster that admittedly is a lot tougher now than he was when he "had the cape"? THAT taskmaster?

anywho..the point is..and I think you're missing it... between my venom, and sabes I should already be winning any hand to hand fight that me and you get into.... now the fact that I have tm on my amalgam just means that sooner or later IF you put up any sort of decent fight for some reason, you soon won't...period....instead you will find I now have your fighting ability and things are getting worse and worse for ya...

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Fisrt, there will be no gliding on a moonlit night in the frozen north. Gliders rely on rising warm air "thermals" to provide lift. While common along coasts, deasert canions, and the concrete jungle; no such air masses will be found above tundra or permafrost. The best Big Kahuna can hope for is a parachute type drop.

doh then I suppose you are totally unaware of spektra gliders...made specifically for this type of environment... or glider-possums which have adapted for more of the same.... I can glide just fine thank you very much...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Second, there's the falling issue. Ben Dreadcrawler ported Big Kahuna two miler/10660 feet/3200 meters inti the air. Air drag will limit his fall speed to around 50meters/second. This figure is a bit slower than the terminal velocity for a normal person, but he's a got a lot more drag (being all furry andl tendrilly). Do the math, this will take him over a minute to fall with a maximum speed in that range. If he makes himself bullet shaped, he could fall faster. But if he lets gravity really accelerate him like that it'd be suicidal. I'll spare you the algebra, but if he goes for a bullet/raindrop shape, that adamantium skeleton of his will rip clean through his body/symbiote when he either impacts or tries some sort of last minute drag-chute type trick. Wolvie survived the helicarrier jump (which was from far less than 10000' as people were talking on deck rather than wearing breathing aparatus and parkas) because he was only falling at around 125miles per hour. "Bullet Kahuna" could get 3-4 times that fast at impact. Several dosen pounds or so of adamantium trying to stop in a hurry is many, many times more energy than the machinegun blasts and such that We've seen Venom stop by concentrating his symbiote. On top of this, an impact like that would liquify his brain against the front of his skull. Again, Creed with the symbiote could regenerate from that eventually, but this would still give Ben Dreadcrawler a win by count-out..
hmmm I thought you were only allowed to port a mile... but I just read back a page and you did put 3,200 km which I missed earlier... interesting... the funny thing about this theory is that you assume that IF anything goes wrong with me or my body I'll be helpless....IF I use the bullet theory..(which was just me throwing out options btw)... and it becomes a hinderance to me instead of a help... whatdyaknow... I can just.................................................
...................

.............stop...... confused

i know my own body better than anyone else, I know when something does not feel right... I can stop at any time of my choosing... I can descend however I please.... also the skull thing...again... you're dealing with someone that can take juggy punches to the head and hulk punches to the head and just get up laughing...chances are my brain is going to be fine.... my muscles are also stronger than steel cables... it's going to be hard for that skeleton to simply slip out of my body epsecially since it's not really THAT heavy... and finally as I said my symbiote can act as a cussion when I come towards the ground both slowing me down and softening the impact... I'm not worried.. nor am I koed..but thanks for comin out...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Finally there's this concept of shooting from these heights. Gravity will indeed pull bullets down with enough force to do damage (not that small arms could penetrate Vanth's armor in any case, but we'll go with it for now). There's no earthly way however that they could be targetted effectively over these distances and times. A bullet doesn't have enough momentum to continue in a remotely straight line over these distances (note that aircraft weapons have bullets bigger than bratwurst with higher muzzle velocities and they still aren't very acurate at these ranges). Add in friction, and those bullets will have fallen to sub-sonic speeds by the time the hit the ground: drifting even more and loosing the energy required to pierce B.D.'s armor on the miraculous occasion that one might hit him. the bullets are not meant to kill you..even wound you...just keep you moving....keep you alert....keep you from preping for my arrival.. I think that'll work just fine....with my superior vision, my years of military training, and my bullseye precise aiming skills I'll do just what I'm intending to with those bullets...which is keep you on the move and unfocused...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Webbing will similarly be useless because the webs greater surface area in relation to their mass give them a much higher drag coeficcient than does Big Kahuna himself. Their terminal velocity (maximun falling speed) is much lower than TBK's, They would lookl a lot like when you spit out of a moving car (though the situation isn't exactly the same).

the webbing is if I'm not in freefall or bulleting down towards you... obviously my own weight would overtake the webbing itself, well I thought it was obvious which is why i didn't comment on it.....guess I was wrong..... confused

..... anywho... it should be noted however that I can streamline my webbing tight enough to peirce clothing and cut skin while retaining it's adhesiveness...... meh... again that's just one option I can go with if I need you off my back for my descent....(which again though i feel is obvious) will only really come into play when I'm within your throwing range...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
As far as the energy shield goes, once Kahuna does get into range, and this is a fairly short range weapon, B.D. could absorb a slow-moving energy attack like that with his sword without even thinking about it.

your sword absorbs energy eh? I'll keep that in mind....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
If he free-falls, I nail him as I first described. to which I've already made multiple counters.....to a weapon which might i add will do hardly anything if anything at all....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
If he bullet-dives, he's down for the count.
only if I'm a complete idiot and ignore my body, or don't use my symbiote to cusion and slow the fall....or lose my comic book attributes which have allowed my characters ON THEIR OWN to take far worse....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
If he parachutes, he cant dodge like he usually can, and I'll cut him apart at my leasure. There will be no gliding, beyond what a rectangular chute could do.

like I said before I won't need to.. I can just glob webbing down your way sending the grenades right back at ya.. they'll never reach me....

and yes I can glide if I so choose...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Behold Benedict's superior tactical mind in action. By skillful tactics, I've maneuvered the fight such that my physically superior-opponent can do nothing but get nailed.

Anyone care to change their votes now?

by what? your pathetic flashbangs? the same one's I webbed back at you... the same one's I webbed to your hand? What the f**k?

or are you reffering to the sword... once again.. first off you have to hit me.....second off I'm not NEARLY impressed with the damage that it's doing...again...2 of my 3 guys have taken faaaaaarrrrrrr worse damage than that ON THEIR OWN and simply smiled at it.....and finally I'm gonna web that damned sword and launch it into the treeline as soon as I get near you... or web your hand to a tree, or web your face... or web you and yank you into a tree...

behold... you still ain't doing jack to me...I wasn't in as much trouble as you thought in the air..and yes I did have options.. executing whatever ones where the best for the presented situation... now I'm on the ground and closing in fast while dodging your blasts.... i wonder how that neck of yours is going to handle adamantium claws moving in double time..... hmmmmm wink

Solidus Snake

this is a good fight. im going for jinzin so far. laminator, ur character has alot of potential and are squandering it.

if u think outside the box u can win easily. jinzin so far however

DarkCrawler

Laminator's character is very interesting...

But right now I am voting for Jinzin.

Laminator_X

A few things.

1) Taking punches from Juggernaut and Hulk. We run into this problem a lot on this board. Characters' power levels fluctuate quite a bit over time and from writer to writer. I would make the case that Venom laughing at a Hulk punch to the head is either a case of "Spiderman vs. Firelord," or is durability far beyond Luke Cage, and thus should not be allowed in the tournament.

2) I have provided concrete arguments as to why Big Kahuna can't dodge under these conditions. You're only response has been to contradict me without any justification other than that Venom is a badass. That is not a counter-argument. Neither Venom, Creed, nor Taskmaster has the aeronautical engineering background to make (let alone improvise) something like a Spectra. And glider possums, flying squirrels etc are so much less dense and massive than Big Kahuna it's not even funny, and cant maneuver in any case. Their wing designs would be useless to him. The best you can hope for is controlled descent.

I'm not just being thick-headed here. You gave a reasonable justification for avoiding my first ambush and I accepted it. You've yet to provide any means by which dodging is possible under these conditions.

3) The grenade. If you read what I said about the grenade initially, Ben is aiming and timing it such that even if you do attempt some sort of intercept, it'll still get you. Thanks to Sabertooth's senses, it doesn't even need to be a close hit, but it still will be. Benedict could do that with ease. Furthermore, the more I think about it, the grenade is just gravy. You cant dodge effectively mid air in anycase.

4) Distances. If you read the Marvel Directory Nightcrawler bio back on page one, they specifically list a two mile vertical jump as his limit.
2 miles = 3.2km = 10560 feet = 3200m.

5) Random bullets falling from the sky are not going to rattle my guy.He's spent more time in actual hot war than your characters' collective lifespans times 10. He also knows that subsonic projectiles wouldn't pierce his armor even if they did hit.

6) Taking blasts from my sword. Look at the picture of Vanth fighting the Red Guy. He's vaporizing two (presumably reinforced) concrete support pillars and the blast is still going. Again, if Venom's symbiote can take that, he's far, far beyond the durability limits for this tourney. What should happen when I blast you is a repeat of Wolverine's death in "Days of Future Past" (Also an example of how didging mid air with no leverage is impossible)

I put a question to our readers. We're only half way through the week. Would you like to hear more debate on these points, or have us explore different angles?

DarkCrawler

Ok, I change my vote to Laminator.

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
1) Taking punches from Juggernaut and Hulk. We run into this problem a lot on this board. Characters' power levels fluctuate quite a bit over time and from writer to writer. I would make the case that Venom laughing at a Hulk punch to the head is either a case of "Spiderman vs. Firelord," or is durability far beyond Luke Cage, and thus should not be allowed in the tournament.

then I ask should sabretooth or wolverine not be allowed in this tournament as well?

cause they are certainly capable of the same, and it has been documented many many times as to just how durable these guys are....yet they are still considered street level opponents by practically everone on the board and it is the general concensus that spiderman would beat em (though I disagree), so then should spiderman not be allowed in this tourny? or scarlet spider?........... now seriously.... my choice of venom has proven to have a class strength of about 40 tons in recent books, he's even stated to be at the VERY LEAST twice as strong as the new and enhanced spiderman.....at least....

I took a MAJOR hit in my strength level when I entered this tourny and made extra sure that everything else for my character was okay with digi and it was.... hell, in the general tourny discussion thread there was even a page or so that delt with venom's durability... it was countered that he had other exploitable weaknesses...and it was accepted... the fact that venom's the outliner, the limit here....it was clearly stated that he was the cap on the tourny...and no one had an issue with it..... and NOW that you don't like what he's capable of doing well....it's certainly not my problem... you COULD take advantage of those other weaknesses if you were just fighting venom here...but your not... against my amalgam, I'm simply too much for you... you stated it yourself... you brought a knife to a gunfight.... that's not my fault....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
I have provided concrete arguments as to why Big Kahuna can't dodge under these conditions. You're only response has been to contradict me without any justification other than that Venom is a badass. That is not a counter-argument. Neither Venom, Creed, nor Taskmaster has the aeronautical engineering background to make (let alone improvise) something like a Spectra.

venom improvises damn near everything else yet he can't figure out how to slow his descent by expanding his symbiote like a glider? or using a webbing glider? again...I'm not out on vacation gliding around for sport..I'm just slowing my descent...this technique is certainly capable of that....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
I'm not just being thick-headed here. You gave a reasonable justification for avoiding my first ambush and I accepted it. You've yet to provide any means by which dodging is possible under these conditions.

dodging while in midair? who the hell said i was going to do that? I can send back your grende with webbing or avoid any blasts that head up my way by changing my velocity, (i.e. cutting the shoot, morphing the wings, making a chute........I'm certainly capable of all of this... your "concrete arguments" thus far are assuming that TBK is some blundering bafoon that doesn't understand his own body or how it works.... sorry man but that's just wack...

also I LET YOU take me into the sky... I don't think you remember how we got there in the first place... you grabbed a tendril which was created with the intent to make contact with you...I also established how sabretooth's senses to kurts BAMFS allow him to actually react faster to kurt than kurt can when coming out of a bamf... I'm not going to be beside myself in awe... and the tendril would have already started seeping into your pours, latching on to you, and crawling up towards your face...you BAMF I go with you....you do it again...same thing happens..... I LET YOU do it man...cause you gave me the ben of the doubt I was willing to let that one slide...now you're sitting there saying my character can not do what parts of him have PROVEN to be capable to do? What the f**k?

Originally posted by Laminator_X
3) The grenade. If you read what I said about the grenade initially, Ben is aiming and timing it such that even if you do attempt some sort of intercept, it'll still get you. Thanks to Sabertooth's senses, it doesn't even need to be a close hit, but it still will be. Benedict could do that with ease. Furthermore, the more I think about it, the grenade is just gravy. You cant dodge effectively mid air in anycase.

no i read exactly what you said...you said the grenade was timed to explode perfectly in sinc to my descent no matter what the speed was... I'm saying a glob of webbing that goes out to stop it midway is going to totally screw that plan in the butt.... it will explode way short of it's intended target... and yes i does have to be close to work... it's not exactly a hulk thunderclap now is it? cause hulk used one of those on wolvie and did little more than really really upset him...what do you think a lil flashbang is going to do to a guy with two healing factors and a symbiote for cover? huh

...

again...just hoping for the best i suppose...and waisting your weapons too...

Originally posted by Laminator_X
4) Distances. If you read the Marvel Directory Nightcrawler bio back on page one, they specifically list a two mile vertical jump as his limit.
2 miles = 3.2km = 10560 feet = 3200m.

okay...I don't think I was arguing this with you... confused

Originally posted by Laminator_X
5) Random bullets falling from the sky are not going to rattle my guy.He's spent more time in actual hot war than your characters' collective lifespans times 10. He also knows that subsonic projectiles wouldn't pierce his armor even if they did hit.

you're acting as if i'm intending to miss... I'm still aiming to kill just that i know it's not likely...so you're seriously arguing your guys just going to be standing there to take it?

Originally posted by Laminator_X
6) Taking blasts from my sword. Look at the picture of Vanth fighting the Red Guy. He's vaporizing two (presumably reinforced) concrete support pillars and the blast is still going. Again, if Venom's symbiote can take that, he's far, far beyond the durability limits for this tourney. What should happen when I blast you is a repeat of Wolverine's death in "Days of Future Past" (Also an example of how didging mid air with no leverage is impossible)

I'm not dodging in midair...i thought we already covered this... IF you have time to prep your sword, it's cause I let you have it, if that's the case I'm going elsewhere..I'm not stupid enough to let myself become a sitting duck for your enjoyment... if I fall quickly how are you gonna do all this prep? and finally...

destroying wherehouse>>>>>>>>>>>>destroying two pillars...

again...not impressed....

Laminator_X

I certainly think Kahuna could control his descent. What I'm saying is that the air-conditions/his-abilities couldn't support anything more elaborate than the sort of paragliding that you see from a skydiver with a rectangular chute. No sailplane-over-the-deasert type maneuvers.

Grenade or no grenade, without Kahuna's normal maneuverability he's taking a big blast on the decent. The grenade helps but is not essential to the plan. Weather you're falling fast in a straight line or gradually in a long soft arc, you may as well be a clay pigeon.

And yes, Dreadcrawler is perfectly willing and able to stand his ground under fire that he knows even better than I do is no threat to him. Effective range for most automatic pistols is around 50m. Extreme range is two to three times that, and at extreme ranges the chances of it penetrating his armor are nil. By the time you're close enough to the ground that a his is even possable, you'll be fricassee'd.

As far as your durability goes, barring Digi stepping in to clarify things we'll just have to disagree and let the voters decide. This is an energy beam, not a force bolt where you can pile up symbiote to distribute the impact and increadse the impulse time. It's more of a high-energy particle beam. Remember, that we're supposed to gauge our characters at their 'normal' power-levels, not their "Ultimate Dramatic Moment" potentials. I would contend again that someone tough enough to take a full-on hit from a upper-limit-of-what's-allowed energy attack at it's maximum power level and not at least be seriously injured is over the line.

If you want to switch gears and play that way, I could switch to powered-up Dreadstar, head-stealing Nightcrawler, and start using Benedict's world-twisting abilities. I think we's be leaving the "Powerful Street" realm at that point. smile

(It's my day-off today, so we can have a little back and forth between errands, if you're so inclined.)

leonidas

hmm, i'm thinking jin should have put up more of an argument regarding getting ported a mile up . . .

gliding or shooting, it still seems like a precarious position . . .

Laminator_X

Regaurding Ben Dreadcrawler evading your tendril attacks. Here's a picture of a Logrus Master. They're the nobility of the Courts of Chaos, the opposite number to the Princes of Amber and there's a lot more of them. Benedict led the Amberite offensive that went clear across uncounted parallel realities and defeated the Courts at their very gates. These guys can make their tendrils attack out of nowhere, even while they're sitting on an entire other plane of reality (Shadow, in Amber-jargon.) Again entire armies led by guys who have centuries of experience with these attacks. Think my guy cant handle some sneaky tendrils? Think again.

(Pic from the Amber RPG main book, page #46)

Laminator_X

Here's a special treat. This is a page from the aforementioned Guns of Avalon, wherin Benedict's brother Corwyn describes his feelings as he watches Benedict ride down on him. Remember, this is the hero of the tales who fought halfway up the mountain and all that. Corwyn's probably the third of fourth best fighter among this interdimensional pantheon of ageless demigods. The weak rogue-type brother in this family, named Random, can throw a sofa one handed and fight five badassed peak-human types at once. Benedict is the best there is.

Laminator_X

One more before I step out. I just want to clear up any confusion about the timing involved.

As per the skydiving links I posted earlier, it'll take a little over a minute for a "normal" fall from that height. You could possably fall a bit faster than that without the liquifying on impact, but even 30 seconds would be more time than I need. "All this prep" isn't all that much at all. Even if we allow a 20 second drop, just for the sake of agruement, all I do is skip the grenade. The grenade's just the cherry on top anyhow.

If you try to just move away in a controlled descent, I can easily follow. Even without teleporting, I could leap through the treetops faster than your lateral velocity. On a "clear moonlit night", I could follow a black body silhouetted againse the sky with ease. And I'd get to shoot you some more thanks to the slow descent evil face

jinzin

Originally posted by leonidas
hmm, i'm thinking jin should have put up more of an argument regarding getting ported a mile up . . .

gliding or shooting, it still seems like a precarious position . . .

only as precarious as I let it become... remember I can either land fast or slow however I see fit for the situation... I can glide awayif it gets too hectic... I can use webbing as a sheild in my descent as well, spiderman's used his webbing as a shield against lazers...mines stronger and more plentiful.... I can also use my energy shield for protection.... an energy shield which crossed with vibranium/admantium and held it's own.... I'll be just fine.... as soon as I hit the ground a few strand os webbing here...some symbiote tendrils there...and walla....lam has no more sword and is now tied to a tree with my tendrils going down his throat........

of course all of this assumes that I LET lam go in the first place as he grabbed my tendril which is exactly what my tendrils were trying to do in the first place... get bodily contact and make a snag......

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
One more before I step out. I just want to clear up any confusion about the timing involved.

As per the skydiving links I posted earlier, it'll take a little over a minute for a "normal" fall from that height. You could possably fall a bit faster than that without the liquifying on impact, but even 30 seconds would be more time than I need. "All this prep" isn't all that much at all. Even if we allow a 20 second drop, just for the sake of agruement, all I do is skip the grenade. The grenade's just the cherry on top anyhow.

If you try to just move away in a controlled descent, I can easily follow. Even without teleporting, I could leap through the treetops faster than your lateral velocity. On a "clear moonlit night", I could follow a black body silhouetted againse the sky with ease. And I'd get to shoot you some more thanks to the slow descent evil face

read above...

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Regaurding Ben Dreadcrawler evading your tendril attacks. Here's a picture of a Logrus Master. They're the nobility of the Courts of Chaos, the opposite number to the Princes of Amber and there's a lot more of them. Benedict led the Amberite offensive that went clear across uncounted parallel realities and defeated the Courts at their very gates. These guys can make their tendrils attack out of nowhere, even while they're sitting on an entire other plane of reality (Shadow, in Amber-jargon.) Again entire armies led by guys who have centuries of experience with these attacks. Think my guy cant handle some sneaky tendrils? Think again.

(Pic from the Amber RPG main book, page #46)

are those tendrils controlled by the main body?

makes things kinda different considering every one of my tendrils is aware of itself if they are....

Sentry

Damn. Good sh!t Lam. Very interesting. Switching my vote to Laminator X.

DigiMark007

Anyone have a vote count with the recent switches and whatnot??

jinzin

Originally posted by Laminator_X
I certainly think Kahuna could control his descent. What I'm saying is that the air-conditions/his-abilities couldn't support anything more elaborate than the sort of paragliding that you see from a skydiver with a rectangular chute. No sailplane-over-the-deasert type maneuvers.

which incidently isn't an argument i was making... huh

Originally posted by Laminator_X
Grenade or no grenade, without Kahuna's normal maneuverability he's taking a big blast on the decent. The grenade helps but is not essential to the plan. Weather you're falling fast in a straight line or gradually in a long soft arc, you may as well be a clay pigeon. .

again.... roll eyes (sarcastic)

I can choot or glide away from you with a certain amount of ease... also....
venom fought an entire regiment of mace warriors... these guys had sonic lazers that were leveling walls, building structures, and water towers....(by the end of the fight there was nothing but rubble in the immediate vecinity)...... venom used his symbiote to make shields that easily held back the blasts from hitting his unconcious beck.... think about that... a bunch of guys with weapons that are perfectly made to take venom down....COULDN'T DO IT.... what makes you think you can when the best feat you've got is taking out some pillars, a boulder, and making a blast roughly the size of a dorm roon? What the f**k?

again.....weakened venom.....walking right up to shriek's continuous wherehouse leveling scream.... and not only remaining concious.... but remaining standing without his symbiote...

compared to that you've got nothing....also...gonna be kind of hard to get past my webbing shield...or energy shield...or a combination of the two.... I'll be just fine....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
And yes, Dreadcrawler is perfectly willing and able to stand his ground under fire that he knows even better than I do is no threat to him. Effective range for most automatic pistols is around 50m. Extreme range is two to three times that, and at extreme ranges the chances of it penetrating his armor are nil. By the time you're close enough to the ground that a his is even possable, you'll be fricassee'd.
when I'm that close...IF I land by you... I'll still be fine via shields o' plenty....limited time....etc...

also .... so your boy isn't worried about getting shot in the noggin? What the f**k?

unless his face is bullet proof I might be alittle bit worried about being hitto some extent....especially when I get in close range.... confused

Originally posted by Laminator_X
As far as your durability goes, barring Digi stepping in to clarify things we'll just have to disagree and let the voters decide. This is an energy beam, not a force bolt where you can pile up symbiote to distribute the impact and increadse the impulse time. It's more of a high-energy particle beam. Remember, that we're supposed to gauge our characters at their 'normal' power-levels, not their "Ultimate Dramatic Moment" potentials.

and I wouldn't have it any other way.... unfortunately for your character however these are not extremes for venom... they are examples of things he does all the time...

pyre-a radiation burning sunspot ripoff is blasting venom in the chest while venom talks to him...venom just stands there and takes it...

sunstroke- female supervillian with powers of heat comparable to her namesake places venom's head in a heat bubble....venom tendrils her head......she falls down unconcious... he does not...

spiderman with sonic gun AND human torch- spidey blasts a pissed of venom who simply leaps into the sonic fire and smashes the gun while simultaniously taking HT's fire circle and thrashing him with sand, grabbing him then slamming him into the water...THEN putting spiderman on the run.

shriek- already covered this...

arachnis project- venom shows up fights the jury (a group of mercs with armor and weapons specifically designed to kill venom), and spiderman...AND kicks their collective ass, THENgoes and fights a queen alien ripoff with acid puke in an inferno AND STILL WINS...

Mace regiment...already covered this...

venom as he is now..... caught in the middle of an explosion from a semi....simply stands in the flames with no reaction to the fire whatsoever.....

now it seems to me you are under the assumption or the impression that one or several blasts will not only hit me...but put me down for the count...given these examples....against a regular venom who fights with a tendency for brawling...... you are gonna be screwed against a fast dodging guy who can adapt to your attacks and overcome them who also has the backround and experience of negotiating foes with ranged weaponry from the weapon x project....

first you have to negate my shields and reflexes and mock spidey sense to hit me....this will be a feat in and of itself... THEN you have to do it a lot... which again.. isn't likely... THEN you have to overcome not one but two healing factors... AND you have to do all this WHILE at the same time avoid all of my attacks which are a combination of webbing, symbiote, and bullets.... AND THEN you have to do all this before I'm able to close range on you....

seems like wishful thinking to me....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
I would contend again that someone tough enough to take a full-on hit from a upper-limit-of-what's-allowed energy attack at it's maximum power level and not at least be seriously injured is over the line.

well more than several of these so called street level guys can do just that...IMO that argument's kind of weak....

Originally posted by Laminator_X
If you want to switch gears and play that way, I could switch to powered-up Dreadstar, head-stealing Nightcrawler, and start using Benedict's world-twisting abilities. I think we's be leaving the "Powerful Street" realm at that point. smile

switch what gears? play it what way? how venom is usually portrayed? why cause you don't like it?

"i don't like it it didn't happen" right? wink

hey man I may as well start giving my boys the madness virus, and the healing factors ability to take nukes at ground zero and regenerate from a single blood cell..... like I said before.... these are not uncommon feats for the v-man....

jinzin

JINZIN VOTES
1. stormfront13
2. jplatinum
3.TwisterGameX
4.Nataku8188
5.Solidus Snake

undecided but commented on the fight....
1. Khellendros (leaning towards jinzin)
2.leonidas (was leaning towards jinzin, now is unsure)
3.8bitChris (no favor towards either)
4.long pig (leaning towards jinzin right now)

LAMINATOR X VOTES
1.zachrivard
2.DarkCrawler
3. Sentry

Damn.... good fight... I really didn't think it would be this close but you're putting up one hell of a fight Lam you just may take this thing yet... good show. This one might come down to the wire.

Laminator_X

Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years! (...ok months, but you get the idea. )

Originally posted by jinzin
JINZIN VOTES

Damn.... good fight... I really didn't think it would be this close but you're putting up one hell of a fight Lam you just may take this thing yet... good show. This one might come down to the wire.

You said it, Jin! Thanks, you rock as well. Let me know what colors you want on your Big Kahuna drawing. I'll make you a color rendering of it as a victory/consolation prize. big grin

(Hopefully the latter of course.)

Now let's see if I can keeep this momentum going...

jinzin

gimme another night.. I'm gonna see what this "layering" thing is all about first... if I can't figure it out I'll submit to your help... thanks for the offer btw.. embarrasment

...

K Von Doom

Originally posted by jinzin
gimme another night.. I'm gonna see what this "layering" thing is all about first... if I can't figure it out I'll submit to your help... thanks for the offer btw.. embarrasment

...

Layering, Jinzin. Get the layering to work smile

newjak86

I must say very good fight right now I can't say I'm leaning one way or the other.

jinzin

Originally posted by newjak86
I must say very good fight right now I can't say I'm leaning one way or the other.

what would it take to convince you that the faster, tougher, stronger, more durable, higher level stamina, better reflexive etc etc etc TBK would win this? shifty does mister washington change your mind........how about his twin brother?

TwisterGameX

Jinzin for president!!!!

jinzin

I WANT YOU!

to vote for THE BIG KAHUNA.

newjak86

Originally posted by jinzin
what would it take to convince you that the faster, tougher, stronger, more durable, higher level stamina, better reflexive etc etc etc TBK would win this? shifty does mister washington change your mind........how about his twin brother? All I can say is Lam's teleport you in air and blasst you thing kinda has me at I don't know who to vote for right now.

TwisterGameX

Personally it would be more convincing if it was batman doing that.

K Von Doom

I'm favoring Jinzin's amalgam right now.... because the teleporting 3 miles up thing that LamX is using will likely take it's toll (as it does with Nightcrawler)

jinzin

blast me? not unless he has blasts that can get around my shields...

IF he even has the time... IF I stay in his vecinity...

jinzin

Originally posted by K Von Doom
I'm favoring Jinzin's amalgam right now.... because the teleporting 3 miles up thing that LamX is using will likely take it's toll (as it does with Nightcrawler)

well inhis defense his amalgam has a superior physilogy to NC... but he's still using NC's body... which is why when I get back down to earth and start closing ground.. he's going to be in some serious trouble.. especially when I web-yank that sword away from him and toss it a mile into the forest...

jgiant

Jinzin has the upper hand...

Laminator_X

Originally posted by jinzin

"i don't like it it didn't happen" right? wink

Sadly, it sometimes feels like that's the only sane way to be a long-term comic reader . laughing

RE: Various invulnerable Venom feats, again if it's over the "Luce Cage" line, it's not germane to this debate. I doubt Cage's "steel-hard" skin (the term besides "unbreakable" most often used to describe him) would stand up to many of those attacks you described. Cage can take hit's that'll mangle a tank and be injured, but survive.

Vanth's sword can pump out blasts that blast through a military starship hull.

More to come.

Laminator_X

Originally posted by K Von Doom
I'm favoring Jinzin's amalgam right now.... because the teleporting 3 miles up thing that LamX is using will likely take it's toll (as it does with Nightcrawler)

It takes it's toll indeed, both being at max range, vertical, and carrying a passenger. However:

1) The strain affects both Kurt and the passenger, to the point where he was afraid of killing some children he was rescuing from falling rubble (the issue where they came back from the Secret Wars over Japan with a big dragon in tow.)

2) Kurt only has "human athlete" endurance. Both of these combattants are lightyears beyond that, and have healing factors to boot. We'll both recover in mere moments. (EDIT: Big ups to Jin for defending me on this point before I could, only he didn't go quite far enough.) My main body is Benedict's not Nightcrawler's. He's got Kurt's flexability, tail, prehensile feet, and flexability on Benedict's already-several-times-better-than-peak-human Elder Amberite frame, then boosted furthur by Vanth's sword. (I know "Appearance" wasn't supposed to transfer, but since I'd be wearing camo anyway Digi let me have the fur just because it's cool)

K Von Doom

Just a question for Lam X... it says Nightcrawler pushed himself to his limits teleporting 2 miles up (I'm not familiar with the issue number, just going by the bio), is that one direction... he teleported up two miles and was spent? Or did he teleport up two miles then teleport back down two miles then he was wiped?

Laminator_X

Originally posted by jinzin
are those tendrils controlled by the main body?

makes things kinda different considering every one of my tendrils is aware of itself if they are....

The tendrils are manifestations of the Logrus itself; a sentient, endlless, three dimensional maze that is the embodiment of Primal Chaos. The Master opens the gateway with his mind and the tendrils manifest in accordance with his intentions. The Master and the Logrus itself are both directing them. I guess that's kind of "yes and no." Their not independant, they share a common conciousness, but coordination isn't a problem for the Logrus. They're not dependant on the Master's fighting skill, but the amount of power that's able to manifest is limited by his will.
In this instance, I imagine Master is to Logrus as Venom is to Symbiote.

Laminator_X

Originally posted by K Von Doom
Just a question for Lam X... it says Nightcrawler pushed himself to his limits teleporting 2 miles up (I'm not familiar with the issue number, just going by the bio), is that one direction... he teleported up two miles and was spent? Or did he teleport up two miles then teleport back down two miles then he was wiped?

I 'm not sure The issue I was referencing was due strain due to passengers.

My understanding about the strain from going up, along with his digfferent ranges for N/S vs E/W jumps has to do with matching the difference in the local planetary rotation velocity. E-W no change in rotational speed. Closer to equator/higher altitude=faster spin. Away from the equator/lower altitude=slower spin. If that is the reason, and it seems like it is, coming back down would either be just as hard (because it's the same changer in velocity) or not quite as hard (because it would be easier to go from more energy to less energy than vice-versa).

In any case, Ben Dreadcrawler's bod can handle so many times much more strain than Kurt's can, that I should be in the clear.

leonidas

it boils down to this for me -- jin's amalgam seems the tougher but situationally, it seems lam SHOULD have the advantage but hasn't done enough yet to convince me he IS taking full advantage of it. lam, do you plan on taking him completely out WHILE he's in the air? ie - is he not supposed to be conscious when he lands? or did you plan on his landing and THEN doing something more? i'm also wonder a bit jin about the range of venom's tentacle's? how far can they extend? (since i really don't feel like drudging through books to find out . . .)

great fight!

OneDumbG0

Just to note, in a fairly recent X-Men storyline, 'Dominant Species,' Nightcrawler apparently overcame his distance limit to catch up to X-Men who were flying in an X-Jet. He was huffing and puffing but he surprised everybody, including Northstar who had written him off as useless because he was too far away to help. He replied, "Never write me off as useless." I'll get scans up this weekend if you want.

Oh yeah, and I am positive I read somewhere that Nightcrawler's agility matched that of Spider-man's, mainly because of how dexterous his body was. I'm not sure where I read it though.

BTW, I always wondered what the Street tourney threads were. Kind of interesting. Who is allowed to vote?

K Von Doom

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
JOh yeah, and I am positive I read somewhere that Nightcrawler's agility matched that of Spider-man's, mainly because of how dexterous his body was. I'm not sure where I read it though.

Hmm.... Nightcrawler matching Spiderman's agility is kinda debatable. Spiderman said something in Secret Wars long the lines of "not on your best day" or something like that to Kurt. I could be wrong though.

Laminator_X

Originally posted by jinzin

again.... roll eyes (sarcastic)

I can choot or glide away from you with a certain amount of ease... also....

Oh you can glide alright, but not "away from" me. Paragliders top out around 35mph lateral velocity, and I doubt your improvised glider will be quite that efficient. Ben Dreadcrawler can move plenty faster than that on foot let alone via teleportation through the treetops. Agaist the moonlit sky, I can track yor sihlouette with ease. The only place your gliding to is into my clutches. I've got you where you can neither dodge, nor run nor hide. It's rather nice actually.

Without thermals for more lift, lateral velocityis less than or equal to earthward velocity. Depending on the assumptions one makes about Big Kahuna's aerodynamics (i just picked some high and low estimates for drag and glide ratios compared to a human skydiver) he'll be airborn for three to six minutes, and within my range for at least a third of that time. In fact, I can pace him via Bamf so that I never have to come within range of his guns! Energy weapons rule!

Originally posted by jinzin

also .... so your boy isn't worried about getting shot in the noggin? What the f**k?

unless his face is bullet proof I might be alittle bit worried about being hitto some extent....especially when I get in close range.... confused

Take a look at the picture of him blasting the spaceship again (re-posted below for everyone's convenience). You'll see that it's in fact a completely environmental, combat vacc-suit. In case anyone was wondering, I announced in one of my first few posts that I was sealing my suit. Thus, my noggin will be just fine, thank you.
Originally posted by jinzin

now it seems to me you are under the assumption or the impression that one or several blasts will not only hit me...but put me down for the count...given these examples....(stuff about brawling here --Lam)

first you have to negate my shields and reflexes and mock spidey sense to hit me....this will be a feat in and of itself... THEN you have to do it a lot... which again.. isn't likely... THEN you have to overcome not one but two healing factors... AND you have to do all this WHILE at the same time avoid all of my attacks which are a combination of webbing, symbiote, and bullets.... AND THEN you have to do all this before I'm able to close range on you....

seems like wishful thinking to me....

Web and E-shield? Easily penetrated/overwhealmed. (again, see this and other pics)

Spider-sense and reflexes? Useless while aloft. You cant dodge!

Avoiding your attacks? What attacks? I'm out of your range!

Overcoming your healing factor? Whell, even if our dear voters are uncertain that one blast will do it, several minutes of continuous free hits will certainly do the trick!

Closing on me? You don't close until I say so BAMF!

Note dear readers, in this scenario, all of the advantages that Big Kahuna has over Dreadcrawler are neutralized, while my best assets are in full effect!

That's how you win.

Laminator_X

Originally posted by leonidas
it boils down to this for me -- jin's amalgam seems the tougher but situationally, it seems lam SHOULD have the advantage but hasn't done enough yet to convince me he IS taking full advantage of it. lam, do you plan on taking him completely out WHILE he's in the air?

Yes

Se above for how I'm doing it. He's never making it down in one piece.

DigiMark007

Couple things...

Is it assured that NC could catch him to teleport him in the air?? Someone as fast and agile as Venom might be able to get away before that happens. Once he's up there though, yeah there's a decent chance he's boned. I know I'm not voting, but that's what I've been thinking for a few pages now.

And nice pic there Lam but make sure it's Cyke level. Cyke's most powerful blasts can be wicked powerful, so it probably isn't beyond him, but I have to make sure everyone's staying honest...

Still an awesome fight. Kudos.

TwisterGameX

Digi, how long are your tournaments ?

DigiMark007

Each match lasts a week. There's 16 people, and 2 matches a week, so the entire tourney will last around two months.

TwisterGameX

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Each match lasts a week. There's 16 people, and 2 matches a week, so the entire tourney will last around two months.

OH!!!, thats kool, and a good tourney by the way, I want to see you enter one some time.

Laminator_X

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Couple things...

Is it assured that NC could catch him to teleport him in the air?? Someone as fast and agile as Venom might be able to get away before that happens.

He might have, but he was trying to catch me. I just helped his tendril touch me a little sooner than planned. (Insert the soft martial arts joke of your choice here.)

Originally posted by DigiMark007

And nice pic there Lam but make sure it's Cyke level. Cyke's most powerful blasts can be wicked powerful, so it probably isn't beyond him, but I have to make sure everyone's staying honest...

Still an awesome fight. Kudos.

We've seen Scott punch holes in Shi'ar capital-ship hulls, so figure we're cool. Vanth isn't destroying the ship entirely there, just blasting through to its engine-room while it's shields are down for a boarding action.

Dizzle

I'm gonna vote for Laminator.

I was right in my "badassness" assumption. Benedict and Vanth are freaking beastly. I'm gonna say he'd beat the crap out of Drizzt pretty easy, with sword skills alone. Saying Drizzt has the skills of a less talented person who had been training for a millenia would be pushing it. Benedict has been working for multiple millenia, and is apparently been getting steadily better. Lam has given me a full blown deep respect for him. Seriously, I was pretty much counting on no one even getting close to outskillifying Drizzt, but this guy's just godly... (Digi may be a Drizzt fan, I'm the closest you're gonna find to a fanboy. But Benedict has me impressed)

Is stacking energy legal? I'd say, from the looks of it, that Vanth's sword blasts are well under the limit unless fed by another energy source. Since his alternate source comes from something other than Vanth's stuff, I think it should be legal. (it's probly above Cyke's normal blasts... but not to the point of planet busting or anything)

If it gets into the air, Jinzin is screwed. Plain and simple. Physics rule, and Laminator obviously has a pretty good grasp of them. Webs are useless while falling, berretas don't have really great range. Jinzin is underestimating how far up 2 miles really is....

As to taking blasts... A: Concussive force is different than energy. Cyke's blasts are concussive, Vanth's are energy. So while his probably is equal in destruction power, it's probably a little more potent in terms of damage to people. B: For all intents and purposes of the tourney, Wolverine can NOT stand up to Hulk, and neither can Venom or Sabertooth. Why? Luke Cage. His durability is good, but he won't be taking all that many high class 100 hits. I'm pretty sure your choices are stick to the tourney and downplay the feats, or stand with your characters and forfeit. You might be a little above Cage, but you still shouldn't be taking a Hulk-style beatdown while smiling. A charged up blast or two should leave you quite the messy, melted corpse. Or the "drop of blood" healing will come up again.

Whew. No one besides me has, of yet, taken advantage of the one post per thread that you get to totally root for one guy or another. I feel special, or just way too eager to argue with people.