Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

There are things, such as God, ghosts, and spirits, that many people do not believe in because they say they can't see them. This got me to wondering...

Do we need to see it to believe it? Or do we need to believe it in order to see it?

Originally posted by Ladyluck
There are things, such as God, ghosts, and spirits, that many people do not believe in because they say they can't see them. This got me to wondering...

Do we need to see it to believe it? Or do we need to believe it in order to see it?
No. You dont have to see things to believe them. I dont see God but I still believe in him. I dont see spirits/ghosts but I still believe there are paranormal out there.

I dont believe in them, not because I dont see them but because its ridiculous.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I dont believe in them, not because I dont see them but because its ridiculous.
Give your definition of ridiculous then

i dont deny the existnce of god. i just dont think that any religions have come close to gods true defenition. buddhism hower is temptively close. but in general organized religion is a big sham, individuality is key. people as individuals should create there own personal dogmas because that is all that metters. I am my religion, and to a certaint extent i am my god. I belive in my self, there for the things ive come to beleive (on a personal level) are fact.

Religion is not fact, it is myth; it is the telling of tales in order to get the point across. people making myth into fact is purely rediculouse. its like me saying that i believe that jack and the beanstalk actually existed and that he went to see a giant in the sky. Though the jack and the beanstalk is a fairytale, it gives a good moral in the end. religion is nothing but a fairy tale.

there are no such things a god or ghosts.

I think there are things that we need first to believe in, in order to see them... like god for example, it is an abstract concept, and to understand it in someway one must reach it by his own intuition, we cannot expect that it can be proved in some usual physical way. Maybe its not all knowledge that comes to us from our five senses, there are other ways to acquire knowledge... by intuition.

Originally posted by Ladyluck
There are things, such as God, ghosts, and spirits, that many people do not believe in because they say they can't see them. This got me to wondering...

Do we need to see it to believe it? Or do we need to believe it in order to see it?

niether. You can very much prove the existance of oxygen. But you could never see it. That's why when people say I don't believe in God, I am always quick to respond "Well I don't believe in oxygen, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist."

Originally posted by AOR
niether. You can very much prove the existance of oxygen. But you could never see it. That's why when people say I don't believe in God, I am always quick to respond "Well I don't believe in oxygen, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist."

Originally posted by AOR
niether. You can very much prove the existance of oxygen. But you could never see it. That's why when people say I don't believe in God, I am always quick to respond "Well I don't believe in oxygen, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist."

nice

Originally posted by AOR
niether. You can very much prove the existance of oxygen. But you could never see it. That's why when people say I don't believe in God, I am always quick to respond "Well I don't believe in oxygen, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist."

But there is undeniable proof that oxygen exists.

God, on the other hand, only exists in the eyes of the faithful.

There is no proof that God exists. If you choose not to believe in oxygen even though it's been proven to exist, and there's not even any speculation on the matter of its existence, well then that's just silly

Err, yes. Frankly that strikes me as an exceptionally dumb thing to say, AOR. You seriouly thought that was a good turn of phrase? Not only does no rational person disbelieve in oxygen, the comparison between the two is fatuous. Direct evidence can be shown for oxygen, as Morgoth points out.

Which gets to the point of the thread. Seeing something is just a form of evidence. The important point is whether evidence can be produced of existence, which might be seeing it (whch is not, incidentally, incontrovertible, depending on circumstance), or it might not.

But seeing doesn't equal evidence of existance. If I'm looking at a picture of Darth Vader does that mean that he exist? Of course not. Darth Vader is nothing but one of Lucas figment of imagination.

Now let's say I'm looking at a picture of Batman. Does that mean he exist? No, but that doesn't mean that someone can't become Batman. After all who is Batman? A highly skill Detective with incredible fighting skills and tons of gadgets that can be prototype. That isn't impossible to become. So the chances of a guy actually becoming a Batman are high. Whereas the chances of Darth Vader happening are none.

And what is the point of all this nonsense? One word "Possibility".

btw-don't mind me I was watching ROTJ and then read some Detective Comics. I just saw this thread.

I can assure you mate Oxygen does exist. If you want proof go stand outside when it is windy. It makes up about 20 % of the stuff that is hitting you.

I wouldn't have to see God to believe he existed. If someone could present a plausable, full proof theory theory as to his existence, I would certainly believe that. Yet so far this 'magic' theory has evaded me.

I do though believe in God, for two reasons.

1. As Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas where keen to point out, there must be a reason that the universe has occured. Everything that exists is based on cause and effect, therefore there must be an intial cause. Note one could argue that the ultimate effcet is actually the intial cause .... but who cares.

2. Fear. I choose to believe in God, as i don't dare take the risk that he does exist. I.e. if he doesn't exist we die, and thats that, if he does exist and i don't believe in him.... well u know what happens.

Originally posted by yahman
I can assure you mate Oxygen does exist. If you want proof go stand outside when it is windy. It makes up about 20 % of the stuff that is hitting you.

I wouldn't have to see God to believe he existed. If someone could present a plausable, full proof theory theory as to his existence, I would certainly believe that. Yet so far this 'magic' theory has evaded me.

I do though believe in God, for two reasons.

1. As Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas where keen to point out, there must be a reason that the universe has occured. Everything that exists is based on cause and effect, therefore there must be an intial cause. Note one could argue that the ultimate effcet is actually the intial cause .... but who cares.

2. Fear. I choose to believe in God, as i don't dare take the risk that he does exist. I.e. if he doesn't exist we die, and thats that, if he does exist and i don't believe in him.... well u know what happens.



God doesnt exist...there I said it.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
God doesnt exist...there I said it.

prove it

Originally posted by Morgoths_Wrath
prove it

If all religions are true then they are all false because they all contradict eachother. If you think christiananity is "special" than explain why your religion is the truth while all other religions are false.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
If all religions are true then they are all false because they all contradict eachother. If you think christiananity is "special" than explain why your religion is the truth while all other religions are false.
Actually most religouns say the same crap just word it differantly..

Originally posted by Spelljammer
Actually most religouns say the same crap just word it differantly..

So in other words religion is crap.

And what does god have to do with a human organised religion?

If religions are crap god most be crap? If religions are stupid god most be stupid... You have to remember that religion is made and controlled by humans. Of course its going to suck, but its hardly proof that god does or does not exist.

Originally posted by WindDancer
But seeing doesn't equal evidence of existance. If I'm looking at a picture of Darth Vader does that mean that he exist? Of course not. Darth Vader is nothing but one of Lucas figment of imagination.

Now let's say I'm looking at a picture of Batman. Does that mean he exist? No, but that doesn't mean that someone can't become Batman. After all who is Batman? A highly skill Detective with incredible fighting skills and tons of gadgets that can be prototype. That isn't impossible to become. So the chances of a guy actually becoming a Batman are high. Whereas the chances of Darth Vader happening are none.

And what is the point of all this nonsense? One word "Possibility".

btw-don't mind me I was watching ROTJ and then read some Detective Comics. I just saw this thread.
That is just to funny......

well it is true that seeing does not equate existance, im not too sure about ghosts, im sure theyr not there in the classic sense of the word but there is evidence to suggest that sumthing is{this i know personally}, there are things like psychics which is definately true{again ive seen what can be called undeniable proof for this before i believed} but relegion=AS STUPID AND UNTRUE AS CAN BE, the idea of god is certainly false because there is just too much against it, morally, logically andfactually, not to mention the complete absence of evidence.

Originally posted by Ladyluck
There are things, such as God, ghosts, and spirits, that many people do not believe in because they say they can't see them. This got me to wondering...

Do we need to see it to believe it? Or do we need to believe it in order to see it?

Well, to me this all goes back to the long storied debate, "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?"

One school of thought would tell you that NO if no one hears it there is no sound. But to me, that is like denying history ever happened. No one on this board was alive to see or hear the American Civil War or Great Wall of China's construction happen, so should we deny that they occurred simply because we did not witness them? I don't think so, because we still have the records of these events occurring through fossils and written accounts. And once someone finds the tree that fell, they have the proof that the tree fell, therefore sending an echo of the event into the present.

Basically what I'm saying here is that there are things in this world that are neither seen nor heard, but they exist. Visuals and sounds help with belief but are not and should not be the sole basis of the belief.

I have consulted many witches, and no-one can give me a straight answer on if it would be hanus to do a spell I had planned. (Obviously it's something that is a hex, but not in the sense it puts people in immideate danger..) If I meet any athiest or atagnoist or anyone else who would deny God and the other-world.. I will make an invitation circle to thier household.. and they will know first-hand, that what I say is true. Unfourtanately for them they will have to learn the hard way..

Originally posted by Spelljammer
I have consulted many witches, and no-one can give me a straight answer on if it would be hanus to do a spell I had planned. (Obviously it's something that is a hex, but not in the sense it puts people in immideate danger..) If I meet any athiest or atagnoist or anyone else who would deny God and the other-world.. I will make an invitation circle to thier household.. and they will know first-hand, that what I say is true. Unfourtanately for them they will have to learn the hard way..


I don't if this level of indirection will weaken your spell. But why don't you entertain us all an put an 'invitation circle' on the whole forum.

It doesn't work that way.. Obviously if you knew anything about magick I can't just wave a wand and turn you into a toad.

Trust me, if I could do you THINK we'd even be having this discussion right now?

Maybe you're a nice person and you've just been holding out on us.
I mean you must be awesome with a name like spelljammer. I have to admit, I'm a bit envious.

All i request is facts, after that i might belive than.

Both.

Originally posted by Ladyluck
There are things, such as God, ghosts, and spirits, that many people do not believe in because they say they can't see them. This got me to wondering...

Do we need to see it to believe it? Or do we need to believe it in order to see it?

There needs to be proof. I believe in air, but I can't see it. I know it's there because we can prove it's there. We can't prove the existance of God, spirits, etc.

We can prove that the air is there because we believe in proof.