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i figure ROTS anakin would win but im not sure about AOTC anakin... you decide

This is overkill Ulic would own any version of Anakin.

i guess, i never really knew much about ulic sorry.... im new

Don't worry about it.

Thsi was a sure-fire way to find out. Ulic would own pretty much anyone who came after him.

Ulic would be pwned if it were TMP Anakin, but that gay...er... AOTC Anakin would lose.

Ulic owns everyone that comes after him pretty much. Revan and Ulic would be a good fight, but I don't know about how many after Revan would stand up to him.

Simus, Nadd, and possibly ancient lords like Hord would also give Ulic trouble and be in position to beat him.

However, after his timeline, I see only Revan giving him much trouble, everyone else would likely be inferior. In an actual fight, Yoda's size and speed could cause some trouble, but ultimately, I see him losing to Ulic as well.

^^ agreed

Some things never change...sidious gets no respect.

Originally posted by Illustrious
However, after his timeline, I see only Revan giving him much trouble, everyone else would likely be inferior. In an actual fight, Yoda's size and speed could cause some trouble, but ultimately, I see him losing to Ulic as well.

Aren't you guys forgetting NJO Luke?

In what way would Sidious be superior to someone like Naga Sadow?

You give people like him no respect, it's not people don't give Sidious any respect. If this was purely a movie forum, I'd say Sidious was great, but it's NOT. It's the EU forum, and it's clear, by virtue of feats, force powers, status, and contemporaries that Naga Sadow is the superior.

If you want to debate why Sidious is greater than someone like Sadow, Ragnos, Exar, Revan, Ulic, Kressh, Nadd, or the like, go for it. Until you learn the abilities to string 2 logically correct points together, don't complain.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Aren't you guys forgetting NJO Luke?

Yeah, I guess I'm forgetting him, but NJO Luke is a bit... bleh.

And Lord Nyax. You know, all the NJO characters we love so much.

Originally posted by Illustrious
In what way would Sidious be superior to someone like Naga Sadow?

You give people like him no respect, it's not people don't give Sidious any respect. If this was purely a movie forum, I'd say Sidious was great, but it's NOT. It's the EU forum, and it's clear, by virtue of feats, force powers, status, and contemporaries that Naga Sadow is the superior.

If you want to debate why Sidious is greater than someone like Sadow, Ragnos, Exar, Revan, Ulic, Kressh, Nadd, or the like, go for it. Until you learn the abilities to string 2 logically correct points together, don't complain.

Oh sure naga sadow is without a doubt "clearly superior"... this is two people from different time periods, its impossible to know for sure whos stronger. Damn kids.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Oh sure naga sadow is without a doubt "clearly superior"... this is two people from different time periods, its impossible to know for sure whos stronger. Damn kids.

If you only want to compare people from the same time period, then you may as well leave.

lol

and yes, I guess you are right Glentract, but remember, Luke has not fought very many force users that actually tested him (Vader wasn't trying 100%, plus Luke was so young that he did not learn all he could from it), however, yes, you are right NJO Luke would be a decent fight for Ulic as well.

Vengence, I see you have not changed at all in months. First, why is Sidious so great, really why is it? Also, how could Sidious destroy a jedi master (think something like Obi-Wan in RotS) without using the force at all.

Actually, I will be happy to debate with you exactly why Sidious is not invincible and would easily be wasted in every category (politics, force power, influence, amount of terror that he inspiries, lackeys power, duelling skill and anything else) by Marka, whom you seem to hate (or at least you did several months ago. Also, in almost every category (excluding politics and influence) Exar would be able to beat him. Actually, if you want, list a person, and I will try to give you a list of reasons as to why Sidious would loose to them (oh please make the list reasonable, not a 2 month old padawan vs Sids and make me try to give reasons for the baby winning).

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
lol

and yes, I guess you are right Glentract, but remember, Luke has not fought very many force users that actually tested him (Vader wasn't trying 100%, plus Luke was so young that he did not learn all he could from it), however, yes, you are right NJO Luke would be a decent fight for Ulic as well.

Vengence, I see you have not changed at all in months. First, why is Sidious so great, really why is it? Also, how could Sidious destroy a jedi master (think something like Obi-Wan in RotS) without using the force at all.

Actually, I will be happy to debate with you exactly why Sidious is not invincible and would easily be wasted in every category (politics, force power, influence, amount of terror that he inspiries, lackeys power, duelling skill and anything else) by Marka, whom you seem to hate (or at least you did several months ago. Also, in almost every category (excluding politics and influence) Exar would be able to beat him. Actually, if you want, list a person, and I will try to give you a list of reasons as to why Sidious would loose to them (oh please make the list reasonable, not a 2 month old padawan vs Sids and make me try to give reasons for the baby winning).


Once again trying to decide whos stronger between two people from different time periods is futile, but nevertheless Ill get to you tommorow once I have more time if you want to debate. And I dont hate ragnos hes cool, I hate revan hes a dork.

well to decide the versus outcome from people from different timelines, you must judge what went on during those times (peace or war), if war, then were they front-line or the armchair general. How feared were they during that time. Who were some of there opponents? What does history say about that time? These are just a few ways that you can help conpare people from different times.

For example, I do not know how good with a sword the best roman front-line general was while the romans were at war with the germanic tribes. However, I do know that all soldiers in the army were trained with a sword and were very skilled and even talked about today. I also know that it was during a time of war, so they would practise there skills. I also know that he was a front-line general, meaning he faced opponets.

Now, none of that proves that he can beat a army commander today if they met fighting with swords. But we do know that the army today does not use swords or get trained with them. So we cannot make a definite conclusion, however, all the evidence leads to the roman general beating the current day army general in a sword fight. That sort of thing is what we are trying to do here. And while Sidious was great in his time, when compared to somebody else (Exar, Marka etc.) he doesn't pass the test.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Once again trying to decide whos stronger between two people from different time periods is futile, but nevertheless Ill get to you tommorow once I have more time if you want to debate. And I dont hate ragnos hes cool, I hate revan hes a dork.

What exactly has triggered this huge "time period" change? If anything, I see Naga Sadow's time period as being far stronger than Sidious. It was a era of the Ancient Sith Empire, an empire of "godlike" war lords, yet somehow Sidious is underrated because you "can't compare eras."

What a f*cking contradiction, you say Sidious "gets no respect" amongst the pantheon of all time characters, and then you say you can't compare eras. So wtf are you supposed to do? Say Sidious is the best of all time without a comparison?

Right fanboy, moving on down the line, "kid."

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Oh sure naga sadow is without a doubt "clearly superior"... this is two people from different time periods, its impossible to know for sure whos stronger. Damn kids.

And where the hell did I even string together "clearly superior" in that post?

If you can't even READ from a QUOTE, don't bother posting a forum for debate.

More Great Nonsense.

Nice points there, LD.

Originally posted by Illustrious
What exactly has triggered this huge "time period" change? If anything, I see Naga Sadow's time period as being far stronger than Sidious. It was a era of the Ancient Sith Empire, an empire of "godlike" war lords, yet somehow Sidious is underrated because you "can't compare eras."

What a f*cking contradiction, you say Sidious "gets no respect" amongst the pantheon of all time characters, and then you say you can't compare eras. So wtf are you supposed to do? Say Sidious is the best of all time without a comparison?

Right fanboy, moving on down the line, "kid."

I didnt contradict myself, I didnt say "sidious would beat naga sadow".. Im saying dont automatically disregard sidious like you guys have been doing.

Originally posted by Illustrious
And where the hell did I even string together "clearly superior" in that post?

If you can't even READ from a QUOTE, don't bother posting a forum for debate.


"It's the EU forum, and it's clear, by virtue of feats, force powers, status, and contemporaries that Naga Sadow is the superior."

Direct quote from you dumbass.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I didnt contradict myself, I didnt say "sidious would beat naga sadow".. Im saying dont automatically disregard sidious like you guys have been doing.

No, you said that he's somehow underrated, or "gets no respect" when juxtaposed to the pantheon of elite all-time characters, then you say there is no way to compare those of different eras. No one is saying he doesn't get respect for the PT era, he simply doesn't get respect when contrasted against other, older Jedi and Sith and their otherwordly feats.

So basically, either prove up or shut up.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
"It's the EU forum, and it's clear, by virtue of feats, force powers, status, and contemporaries that Naga Sadow is the superior."

Direct quote from you dumbass.

You realize that it being clear that he is superior is different than saying it's "clearly superior" right? Putting that quote together is taking things out of context. And the "without a doubt" is your fabrication.

Don't be daft.

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
well to decide the versus outcome from people from different timelines, you must judge what went on during those times (peace or war), if war, then were they front-line or the armchair general. How feared were they during that time. Who were some of there opponents? What does history say about that time? These are just a few ways that you can help conpare people from different times.

For example, I do not know how good with a sword the best roman front-line general was while the romans were at war with the germanic tribes. However, I do know that all soldiers in the army were trained with a sword and were very skilled and even talked about today. I also know that it was during a time of war, so they would practise there skills. I also know that he was a front-line general, meaning he faced opponets.

Now, none of that proves that he can beat a army commander today if they met fighting with swords. But we do know that the army today does not use swords or get trained with them. So we cannot make a definite conclusion, however, all the evidence leads to the roman general beating the current day army general in a sword fight. That sort of thing is what we are trying to do here. And while Sidious was great in his time, when compared to somebody else (Exar, Marka etc.) he doesn't pass the test.


Yeah I see your point, but I respectfully disagree. It may have been the trend that people from the old times were on average stronger due to more combat experience but there are exceptions to the rules. I dont see how the combat experience argument can justify saying the best from one time period is better than the best from another.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Yeah I see your point, but I respectfully disagree. It may have been the trend that people from the old times were on average stronger due to more combat experience but there are exceptions to the rules. I dont see how the combat experience argument can justify saying the best from one time period is better than the best from another.

Tell me then, what feat has those of the PT/OT era done to match the feats of the Ancient Sith?

From a mere "what have you done" aspect, the Ancient Sith are the stronger individuals.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Yeah I see your point, but I respectfully disagree. It may have been the trend that people from the old times were on average stronger due to more combat experience but there are exceptions to the rules. I dont see how the combat experience argument can justify saying the best from one time period is better than the best from another.

So by your line of reasoning, any one of us can take out a fifteenth century professional mercenary in melee combat? Because that's the difference in ages. The best swordsman in our day and age perhaps practices for ten, twenty years on the side. The average swordsmen in medieval Europe practiced every day save for Sundays with a broadsword weighing easily twenty, forty pounds for hours upon hours a day, along with archery practice, horseback riding in heavy armor, battlefield training, and then applying it for most of their adult careers in various battles of life and death.

So yeah, combat experience does make a difference... in combat. Duh.

Originally posted by Illustrious
You realize that it being clear that he is superior is different than saying it's "clearly superior" right? Putting that quote together is taking things out of context. And the "without a doubt" is your fabrication.

Don't be daft.

From that quote you basically said, its clear -insert reasons- that naga sadow is the superior. So thats were I got "naga sadow is clearly superior". Thats what you meant dont try to deny it. And dont tell me to stop being daft all you have been doing is flame me because I happen to disagree with the accepted views of this forum.

Stop putting yourself in such a euphemistic light, and stop trying to make me seem like the bully to make yuorself look good. You were the one that threw out the insults first, "kid."

You were the one that claims Sidious gets no respect first, without offering ANY proof or reasons.

You were the one that claimed he was underrated against the all-time pantheon, but then said you can't compare eras.

You were the ones that took my line out of context, and when I tell you not to, you say I'm "flaming" you.

Right, you're the little lamb, and I'm the big bad wolf. Sure...

Originally posted by Illustrious
No, you said that he's somehow underrated, or "gets no respect" when juxtaposed to the pantheon of elite all-time characters, then you say there is no way to compare those of different eras. No one is saying he doesn't get respect for the PT era, he simply doesn't get respect when contrasted against other, older Jedi and Sith and their otherwordly feats.

So basically, either prove up or shut up.


I said there is no way to completely prove that from somone from one time is better than another, but yes I believe that sidious could defeat many of the old sith, notice I said "believe" Im not going to push it as though it was absolute fact.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
I said there is no way to completely prove that from somone from one time is better than another, but yes I believe that sidious could defeat many of the old sith, notice I said "believe" Im not going to push it as though it was absolute fact.

Which Sith could he beat? And give a few reasons at least. You saying you "believe" he could doesn't mean crap, in fact, it hardly has a place in this thread. If you believe your dog could beat Superman, that's great, but that doesn't mean you voice it unless you have something to back it up.

Agreed. If you want to shout out your opinion, whatever. But when you keep coming back like this, you're obviously either playing for attention or not sure what the difference is between having an opinion and taking a stance in a debate.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Stop putting yourself in such a euphemistic light, and stop trying to make me seem like the bully to make yuorself look good. You were the one that threw out the insults first, "kid."

You were the one that claims Sidious gets no respect first, without offering ANY proof or reasons.

You were the one that claimed he was underrated against the all-time pantheon, but then said you can't compare eras.

You were the ones that took my line out of context, and when I tell you not to, you say I'm "flaming" you.

Right, you're the little lamb, and I'm the big bad wolf. Sure...

-You started flaming me for no reason other than I disagreed with you correct?

-Yes I didnt because Im not a big fan of arguing whos stronger from different times periods as Ive already explained, but I'll oblige to this if you like.

-I stated what we both know you meant.

-Your not a wolf but you are acting like a barbarian.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Agreed. If you want to shout out your opinion, whatever. But when you keep coming back like this, you're obviously either playing for attention or not sure what the difference is between having an opinion and taking a stance in a debate.

Reading is your friend.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
-You started flaming me for no reason other than I disagreed with you correct?

-Yes I didnt because Im not a big fan of arguing whos stronger from different times periods as Ive already explained, but I'll oblige to this if you like.

-I stated what we both know you meant.

-Your not a wolf but you are acting like a barbarian.

Awile ago I made a comparsion of Darth Somebody to you and now I take it back...DS is at the very least poilite and does provide reasons for his opinon.

Well, they're never around at the same time. What does that tell you? It's probably Ian McDairmid or whatever on the other side of that SN.

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
-You started flaming me for no reason other than I disagreed with you correct?

-Yes I didnt because Im not a big fan of arguing whos stronger from different times periods as Ive already explained, but I'll oblige to this if you like.

-I stated what we both know you meant.

-Your not a wolf but you are acting like a barbarian.

-No, I asked you what gave you the idea that Sidious was greater than say... Naga Sadow. Then you responded with a condescending statement about not comparing eras which terminated in "kid."

-Then argue feats, contemporaries, and powers. Sidious still loses.

-So suddenly you think you know what other people mean. Good job on the telepathy man.

-You haven't offered one shred of evidence, all you do is continuing with senseless banter.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Well, they're never around at the same time. What does that tell you? It's probably Ian McDairmid or whatever on the other side of that SN.

LOL

"Oh... I'm quite afraid Sidious pwns, you Eu pricks!"

*Insert evil laugh here, crackle of lightning. Shout of Ian's mother to keep the noise down*

Poor Ian.

Well, no one ever gets Emmy's over Star Wars. No wonder he's so good at being evil.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Agreed. If you want to shout out your opinion, whatever. But when you keep coming back like this, you're obviously either playing for attention or not sure what the difference is between having an opinion and taking a stance in a debate.

I will grudgingly take a stance in this debate if I have to. Let me start out with my reasons why sidious is very powerful.


Sidious was made out by lucas to be the ultimate villian, hes so strong in the darkside his body his consumed by it. I know you dont like the ROTS novel but whether or not you like it doesnt matter because its lucas approved. To start out heres some quotes from the book on sidious( told by dooku who is no easy man to please) an "event horizon on the force" and that he was "beyond power". The message seems to be clear.

Lets look at what he did in the prequels, he took over the republic...no other sith in history that we know of has done that. Naga Sadow failed, Exar Kun failed, Revan almost did it but failed...Marka Ragnos never dared to try. Sidious killed 3 great jedi masters in about two seconds, and yes they were highly skilled - mace didnt bring them along as cannon fodder. Heres were a controversy begins in the fight with mace, the book pretty much made it clear that palpatine won(When he sensed mace and co. coming he smiled..), as for the movie its up in the air..I still think palpatine was playing with mace but that debate will probably never be solved. But moving on he went on to (at the very least) fight yoda himself to a draw, the 900 year old grandmaster of the jedi(who many believe to be the strongest jedi of all time, its stated in wikipedia). And remember this is before all the jedi artifacts of the temple were plundered and added to palpatines strength.

Also remember that is pre DE sidious, if I use DE sidious than my side of the argument is strengthened further. I have to leave, perhaps Ill continue tonight If I have time.. then Ill be happy to argue why sidious would win against a set opponent. I *believe* sidious would win against all sith lords except ragnos and maybe exar kun.

The movies and GL's statements are still most cannon, any source that contradicts them is not admissible for proof. The book did so in many ways (Anakin entering the scene before Mace disarmed Sidious, Kit Fisto getting decapitated instead of getting sliced across the chest, that was only a few), therefore it remains as a rather shaky source of Sidious's power. You don't even know much about the ancient sith lords and how THEY were described. Look in the (Ulic vs Revan thread, you'll see a whole ton of info on the ancient sith lords.)



Sidious was the only visible sith left. All the other sith lived in "The Golden Era of the Sith" thousands of years before Sidious, a time where the republic was constantly at war and all the sith were trying to overthrow each other with all means. Hiring an army to help kill the Jedi when they were taken completely off guard is considered an excellent tactical move, not a move that makes you a uber powerful sith and certainly doesn't make Sidious more powerful than the ancient sith lords, since the challenge of taking over the republic for them was MUCH harder than the challenge Sidious faced. This is like saying I shot the world's best archer from point-blank range while he was taking a nap and I am suddenly the world's best archer.



Indeed, he did, but Exar Kun was easily able to defeat Vodo Baas, a 600 year old jedi master, extrememly wise in the force and a lightsaber grandmaster in under 10 seconds after toying with him (I got this information from Lord Darkstar and I'm sure he'd be happy to tell you where he got the info from). Exar pwned him with ease. As for the Mace/Sidious fight, GL has yet to declare if Sidious dropped the fight or not, but the movie and the book portrayed it differently, but we have to go with the movie, since, as I have mentioned before, GL's statements and movies override the books anyday. And as for Sidious/Yoda fight, the movies clearly protrayed Yoda as superior. How? First of all, Sidious tries to escape from Yoda, second, after the duelled with sabers, the next scene automatically cuts to the scene where Sidious threw pods at Yoda on high ground. Why would he need to do that if he could take Yoda on level ground? The only reason is that he can't. Even with the high ground, Yoda managed to pull back and catch his lightning. When it exploded, Yoda was on the edge, Sidious was in the middle, so as a result, Yoda's fall was worse. Throw them in a flat plain desert and Yoda would likely win. And wikipedia stated that Revan was also the most powerful sith lord, and many other things you might not want to believe. It is not a bad source, but not 100% accurate either. Since NJO Luke is clearly more powerful as a Jedi Master. He could cloak planets, create black holes, bring down starships from space and a whole ton of other stuff that clearly are superior to Yoda's abilities.



We are not talking about DE Sidious (which is a whole different story), were talking about ROTS Sidious, and as I see it, he doesn't stand a chance against most of the ancient sith lords. The ancient sith were so much more in fighting shape due to fact that they were constantly at war. Sidious was known for his skills of deception and manipulation, not necessarily his fighting power.

Originally posted by OBI-Ninja
The movies and GL's statements are still most cannon, any source that contradicts them is not admissible for proof. The book did so in many ways (Anakin entering the scene before Mace disarmed Sidious, Kit Fisto getting decapitated instead of getting sliced across the chest, that was only a few), therefore it remains as a rather shaky source of Sidious's power. You don't even know much about the ancient sith lords and how THEY were described. Look in the (Ulic vs Revan thread, you'll see a whole ton of info on the ancient sith lords.)



Sidious was the only visible sith left. All the other sith lived in "The Golden Era of the Sith" thousands of years before Sidious, a time where the republic was constantly at war and all the sith were trying to overthrow each other with all means. Hiring an army to help kill the Jedi when they were taken completely off guard is considered an excellent tactical move, not a move that makes you a uber powerful sith and certainly doesn't make Sidious more powerful than the ancient sith lords, since the challenge of taking over the republic for them was MUCH harder than the challenge Sidious faced. This is like saying I shot the world's best archer from point-blank range while he was taking a nap and I am suddenly the world's best archer.



Indeed, he did, but Exar Kun was easily able to defeat Vodo Baas, a 600 year old jedi master, extrememly wise in the force and a lightsaber grandmaster in under 10 seconds after toying with him (I got this information from Lord Darkstar and I'm sure he'd be happy to tell you where he got the info from). Exar pwned him with ease. As for the Mace/Sidious fight, GL has yet to declare if Sidious dropped the fight or not, but the movie and the book portrayed it differently, but we have to go with the movie, since, as I have mentioned before, GL's statements and movies override the books anyday. And as for Sidious/Yoda fight, the movies clearly protrayed Yoda as superior. How? First of all, Sidious tries to escape from Yoda, second, after the duelled with sabers, the next scene automatically cuts to the scene where Sidious threw pods at Yoda on high ground. Why would he need to do that if he could take Yoda on level ground? The only reason is that he can't. Even with the high ground, Yoda managed to pull back and catch his lightning. When it exploded, Yoda was on the edge, Sidious was in the middle, so as a result, Yoda's fall was worse. Throw them in a flat plain desert and Yoda would likely win. And wikipedia stated that Revan was also the most powerful sith lord, and many other things you might not want to believe. It is not a bad source, but not 100% accurate either. Since NJO Luke is clearly more powerful as a Jedi Master. He could cloak planets, create black holes, bring down starships from space and a whole ton of other stuff that clearly are superior to Yoda's abilities.



We are not talking about DE Sidious (which is a whole different story), were talking about ROTS Sidious, and as I see it, he doesn't stand a chance against most of the ancient sith lords. The ancient sith were so much more in fighting shape due to fact that they were constantly at war. Sidious was known for his skills of deception and manipulation, not necessarily his fighting power.

Damn. You covered everything I wanted to say. Thank you so much. I... I feel a tear coming on.

No, really. Very well said.

GV = owned

Originally posted by Great Vengeance
Sidious was made out by lucas to be the ultimate villian, hes so strong in the darkside his body his consumed by it. I know you dont like the ROTS novel but whether or not you like it doesnt matter because its lucas approved. To start out heres some quotes from the book on sidious( told by dooku who is no easy man to please) an "event horizon on the force" and that he was "beyond power". The message seems to be clear.

a) Sidious is Lucas ultimate villian - Did you realize that this is an EU subforum ?
b) Sidious is so strong that he is consumed by channeling some power for a little bit of Sith lightning blocked by a lightsaber where other people were able to keep their natural shape while blowing up stars with a hand movement (Naga Sadow) - well...that only makes Sidious look weak for me. Sorry...
c) Dooku was talking about Sidious ability to cloak his presence within the force - what does that tell you about his power ? Exar Kun was walking around on Ossus (a planet filled with Jedi) and recruiting them for his means while not being recognized as a force user.



Sadow was betrayed before he even really tried.
Kun was betrayed by Ulic and the Jedi needed an army of force users to kill him (still he was able to stay as a spirit on Yavin 4.)
Revan was also betrayed by Malak.
Ragnos never did try because in his minds the calculation was like that: "The first Dark Jedi / Sith Lords were defeated by the Jedi so I have to assume that we would still get defeated by the Jedi" (and he was wrong with that).



- Mace did bring them because that were the only masters available at that point and if you see how they did "fight" they were nothing more than cannon fodder
- Sidious only was lucky against Yoda and needed Anakin to survive Mace. The ancient Sith Lords would most likely play tennis with Mace's head without even thinking about using their weapons.
- Jedi artifacts ? Thinks of Sith artifacts like amuletts that multiply your raw force powers or swords so powerful that they can't even be controlled by their own creators. What do you think Sidious found at the Jedi temple (and why the Jedi didn't use it) ?



Oh...yes...DE Sidious. You don't even have to discuss throwing DE Sidious in here because you can throw in Nihilus or Sekot as well (two other being that DE Sidious wouldn't be able to defeat) - that's boring.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
a) Sidious is Lucas ultimate villian - Did you realize that this is an EU subforum ?
b) Sidious is so strong that he is consumed by channeling some power for a little bit of Sith lightning blocked by a lightsaber where other people were able to keep their natural shape while blowing up stars with a hand movement (Naga Sadow) - well...that only makes Sidious look weak for me. Sorry...
c) Dooku was talking about Sidious ability to cloak his presence within the force - what does that tell you about his power ? Exar Kun was walking around on Ossus (a planet filled with Jedi) and recruiting them for his means while not being recognized as a force user.



Sadow was betrayed before he even really tried.
Kun was betrayed by Ulic and the Jedi needed an army of force users to kill him (still he was able to stay as a spirit on Yavin 4.)
Revan was also betrayed by Malak.
Ragnos never did try because in his minds the calculation was like that: "The first Dark Jedi / Sith Lords were defeated by the Jedi so I have to assume that we would still get defeated by the Jedi" (and he was wrong with that).



- Mace did bring them because that were the only masters available at that point and if you see how they did "fight" they were nothing more than cannon fodder
- Sidious only was lucky against Yoda and needed Anakin to survive Mace. The ancient Sith Lords would most likely play tennis with Mace's head without even thinking about using their weapons.
- Jedi artifacts ? Thinks of Sith artifacts like amuletts that multiply your raw force powers or swords so powerful that they can't even be controlled by their own creators. What do you think Sidious found at the Jedi temple (and why the Jedi didn't use it) ?



Oh...yes...DE Sidious. You don't even have to discuss throwing DE Sidious in here because you can throw in Nihilus or Sekot as well (two other being that DE Sidious wouldn't be able to defeat) - that's boring.

No know what I love about Nai Fohl? You can always count him to bring the facts and prove you wrong...