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I searched Darth Revan and nothing came up. This is Ulic at his peak (i never read the comics so...) vs post KOTOR Revan.

Revan

And no I don't have any reasons because its all based on quotes and not on in game movies so most people won't consider it good enough.

I'm leaning towards Ulic.

im a big ulic fan and at his peak i think he bests revan.

Christ Ulic is good and nice sig Janus

I can believe that Kun could take Revan...but Ulic? No way.

Thanks Avis.

Anyone want to get dirty and debate why Revan could beat Ulic?

Not really...

I can see this debate now

Somebody: Making lots of points for Revan
Other: No proof, makes points for Ulic
Somebody: But Revan, more points
Other: No proof, more reasons for Ulic...

Not going anywhere.

where is LD with his huge ulic post?

Check every other Kun/Ulic thread.

And you're pretty much right, Fishy. While we respect and like Revan, we won't touch him in a debate because he's too variable. Hell, he could very well be a she.

Yeah it could be..

Its just impossible to really defend Revan in any VS thread... Everything is based on an assumption and those are thrown away to easily sometimes and taken to serious at other times. I won't do it anymore, I just don't feel like it. At least not right now. So in this case I will just say Revan wins because I think he or she wins based on a lot of assumptions you can all throw away if you want.

Fair enough. I'm not gonna challenge that. I can understand how you feel. At least we have some reason to assume that Revan is good, based on his reputation.

Yeah and for some its enough and for some it isn't... I think we have established that in enough threads already I was kinda licking the absence of Revan in VS threads lately... Tobad he had to return and with something like this not exactly the easiest thing to judge.

can you post a good pic of him?

Revan threads are horribly controversial. Actually, nowadays it seems like a thread is either too off-stream to consider or there's some fanboy or pro-person A who will argue until they'll blue in the face over something. Take the ROTJ Luke versus TPM Obi-Wan thread. Luke supporters don't have a leg to stand on, yet they believe Luke will win. ONe of them even went os far as to tell me we can't rely on OT battles because of limited eighties choreographyand that instead we should entertain the possibility that Luke is better than we physically saw him.

Revan threads always end up with people getting pissed at eachother...

Not necessarily pissed, but lets look at the thing here...

If i'm going into a debate about this, I will have to face Darkstar Janus possibly Nai Fohl and with some extra bad luck Faunus... Who will all be supporting Ulic. Now what will I have except for assumptions to argue with? Nothing. Can these convince them? No. So whats the point in debating? There isn't any. Its been done a thousand times already, we all know how it will, with people agreeing to disagree. Thats how threads with Revan will almost always end.

I'll take all of it, if you have the time to PM it to me.

Funny thing is, although that post could mostly be considered true much of it can still be debated... A shame some things were left out though, but ER never managed to defend Revan its fullest. Not enough creative thinking.

Originally posted by Veneficus
Hey Darkstar do you keep a word file with this or somthing?

actually yes I do, lol

Can you PM me all that stuff too?

Go ahead and post them all here, it'll be good to have it all out there.

It'll be a great fight, and I'm leaning towards Ulic. For Veneficus to say no way is very closed minded. At their peaks, no one could even touch Exar and Ulic, it wasn't like Revan and Malak where they at least had people that could resist them (such as Malak not killing Kavar). There was simply no one that fought Ulic and Exar and lived, save each other.

Nobody that challenged Revan lived... That we know off at least. We know Kavar ran from Malak. But we do not know how, perhaps he had a damn firing squad firing at Malak while he was running. Perhaps Malak let him live, or perhaps he was just barely beaten by Malak. We don't know.

Even so Kotor one makes it clear that nobody could defeat either one of them, both Revan and Malak were invincible to all but each other. Revan was the only thing that could have killed Malak. Kotor 2 kinda screwed that up by introducing Kreia. But Kreia is a heavy weight, especially if her insta kill power works. Then she is going to be a hard challenge for anybody and a lot of people will die because of her. Still making not killing Kavar says nothing about Revan.

We don't know how Revan beat Malak. We do know that Malak had a huge advantage in their fight too, the Star Forge made him more powerful and he absorbed Jedi making himself more powerful everytime he was about to lose. Again what does this mean? Well nothing, but it at least seems to suggest that Revan was highly superior to Malak. Who was superior to Kavar, maybe a by a bit or maybe by a little.

Again we know shit but it doesn't prove anything.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Go ahead and post them all here, it'll be good to have it all out there.

It'll be a great fight, and I'm leaning towards Ulic. For Veneficus to say no way is very closed minded. At their peaks, no one could even touch Exar and Ulic, it wasn't like Revan and Malak where they at least had people that could resist them (such as Malak not killing Kavar). There was simply no one that fought Ulic and Exar and lived, save each other. Ok ok...I admit that was closed minded

does anyone mind if I post all my info here?

No, and if they do ignore them...

go ahead

Exar info:

Exar was an exceptional duelling master.
He also was able to freeze the entire (which had jedi that were in the building) with one spell and then rescue his apprentice and kill an extremely powerful jedi master and nobody could do a thing about it. This jedi master was also very similar to Yoda and been training for 600 years, also remember that the jedi master was training during the height or war in the republic so he knew battle better than Yoda did.
The jedi order also sent thousands of jedi to kill Exar. He was able to repel all of them long enough to preserve his spirit for thousands of years.

And Exar did study alot, Vodo-Baas says that Exar is the most powerful student he has ever trained and the most powerful force user of that time, and Vodo was similar to Yoda, he trained lots of jedi over a long period of time, and if Exar was the best, that means something.

Exar also studied alot, he was fascinated by the sith teachings in Vodo's holocron. Exar also learned under the ancient sith, like Freedon Nadd and Marka Ragnos, he would still be very smart. It is also worth noting that the ancient sith said that Exar would be the one to bring about the golden age of the sith and said that he was the Dark Lord of the Sith, over Ulic-Qel Droma.

Exar Kun was also able to destroy the entire massassani race, quite a feat. He drained their life force and used it to prolong his life.

His apprentice, Ulic, was a powerful jedi and dueller in his own right, but Exar was his unquestioned master and the ancient sith said that Kun would be the dark lord, not Ulic, this means that Kun is stronger than Ulic was.

He was also able to hide as a sith in the middle of the jedi stronghold (Ossus) and recruit jedi to become sith, without the jedi even knowing what he was doing, that's got to take some pretty impreesive power. He decived the best jedi in the order, took sith stuff and recruited new allies from the midst of the jedi ranks, lied to the jedi masters, and they couldn't even tell it was going on! Also, this planet (and its sun) were later blown up by Kun so anybody after him would have no knowledge of those things that Exar knew.

Also, he invented his own lightsaber, Exar was the person who invented the double blade lightsaber. He also designed his own unique style of duelling, something that he never tought to anyone and was lost after his defeat. So nobody other than him and Ulic had any idea what to expect from him (everyone else he faced ended up dead)

He is also an amazing dueller, after he decided to try against Vodo (a lightsaber master), Vodo died in around 10 seconds, before that Kun was just toying with him. Toying with him! In the middle of the senate chamber on the same planet as the jedi temple, he could still toy with one of the best duellers in the jedi order and win hands down.

Kun also learned loads of stuff from Ossus, which was later destroyed by him so anyone after him couldn't have learned anything from it, he also used sith holocrons and had the private notes of Naga Sadow, another sith who could blow up a sun. Naga was also a dark lord of the sith from 1000 years before Exar and was Marka Ragnos apprentice and had an amazing grasp of the dark side, Exar learned it all.
Kun was able to walk into the heart of the republic senate, freeze them all, kill their leader and a jedi master, and walk out, nobody could do a thing. This is in the heart of the jedi order! He was also able to kill a beast which is probably very similar to a terentek, or better, with very few problems. Exar was also able to walk into another jedi stronghold (Ossus), kill more jedi, steal the artifacts, and walk out again, unharmed. He was also able to destroy Freedon Nadd with no problems.

Think about how he died, he was faced against 10 000 jedi, and the republic fleet. Under those circumstances, anyone would have died. Exar died sure, but he was able to hold the entire fleet off with the force until he was able to figure out a plan to keep himself alive. Exar was able to kill off an entire race, numbering thousands, to keep himself alive, sure he was killed 4000 years later, but it still took 14 jedi, 12 padawans, Luke and Kuns old master to kill him. Think about it, 2 lightsabers, 12 padawans/knights, 2 jedi masters (including one of the most powerful jedi ever; Luke and the old version of Yoda, Vodo-Baas, he trained lots of jedi, for some reason I think of him like an old Yoda), to kill off Kun's 4000 year old ionized air particles! He must have been near godlike when he was alive.

When Kun walked, the ground shook underneath him from the shear power of the dark side emanating from his body.

Exar did invent his own style of lightsaber combat, the double blade, also, his double blade was different than any other double blade. He was able to move it faster and aim more than with other double blades. Also, since few people had never seen a double bladed sabre, it would throw them off. He can move his lightsaber so quickly that almost anyone he faced would be sliced before he knew what was going on.

Exar wore armor with a cortosis weave in it, allowing him to recieve hits from a lightsaber without doing him damage.

He was also a powerful sith alchemist and created several beasts.

Naga info:

Naga Sadow became dark lord of the sith after the death of Marka Ragnos. He duelled Ludo Kressh, but the duel was never finished because the spirit of Ragnos appeared and warned the sith that a scout ship from the republic had arrived. Sadow just proclaimed himself to be dark lord (actually they did have more politics and kidnapping and murder, but it doesn't really matter). And declared war on the republic, leading his ships into republic space, he used galaxy wide battle meditation, yet lost and was forced to retreat back to sith space. However, in the battles with the republic he dealt severe damage to it and blew up several stars. The reason he lost is because his apprentice, Gav Daragon, betrayed him and turned on him, destroying most of his fleet and causing him to flee. When back in sith space, he discovered that in his absence, Ludo had declared himself to be the dark lord, they had a space battle and Sadow won. However the republic had followed them and destroyed Sadows fleet, forcing him to flee. He went to Yavin IV with his massassani warriors where he died of old age. Some time later (1000 years), Exar Kun found Sadows old ship and used its power to destroy a sun.

He was a great sith alchemist, he created several beasts, one of which was a challenge for even Exar Kun, and that is 1000 years after he was dead. Naga Sadow was also the person who built most of the temples on Yavin IV, they were used to focus the dark side and increase its power.


Sorry, I thought I had more on him but I guess I don't, I will upgrade this info soon though

Nai has some Nadd stuff, I believe, you should ask him to post it here.

alright, I will do that

Are those really Marka Ragnos' stats? Does it elaborate on them (like is 5 an average Jedi, or something?)

Yeah, that's a wow. Does that make Marka have the highest offensive AND defensive force powers in the entire EU? Not to mention that arsenal of weapons? Sheesh.

Well, it IS a set of RPG stats, which mean we have to take an objective look at them. Set stats are about as irrational as DBZ power levels.

But it does give us a hint of his power, apparently, as the Lucasflim approved Wizards of the Coast imagined him. I just wonder if this is post OT era or Golden Age era. If post... da-amn

Yeah, that's crazy.

I'm actually more surprised by the info on Kreia...

You said she took out twelve sith assasins with a wave of her hand, this right but did she kill them or knock them out. Does anybody know? And did the technique she used back then looked like the technique she used against the Masters?

someone should do a marka ragnos vs exar kun thread.

Marka Pwnage

Originally posted by Maestro
someone should do a marka ragnos vs exar kun thread.

What makes you think Kun could beat Ragnos? I don't even know if Kun had the power to defeat Sadow, as great as Kun was, especially since the Ancient Sith were said to make those in his era look like children.

i child took 6 troopers lol

Originally posted by Fishy
I'm actually more surprised by the info on Kreia...

You said she took out twelve sith assasins with a wave of her hand, this right but did she kill them or knock them out. Does anybody know? And did the technique she used back then looked like the technique she used against the Masters?

This is suspicious. I played the game arguably more than anyone here, and all I saw was the screen go black; exactly what happened when the Handmaiden killed her sisters. If that's the case, did both of them do the same thing?

Originally posted by Darth Avis
i child took 6 troopers lol

But it was ZETT JUKASSA! zOMG he could pwn TPM Anakin!

no way that is TPM anakin

yeah, TMP Anakin pwns him.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
This is suspicious. I played the game arguably more than anyone here, and all I saw was the screen go black; exactly what happened when the Handmaiden killed her sisters. If that's the case, did both of them do the same thing?

You know when the Handmaiden fought her sisters, that was originally supposed to be a boss fight, but it was deemed to difficult. Same with fighting the Rancor in KOTOR 1. Why I mentioned that, I don't know.

Back on topic, I thought the screen went black too, but I've only palyed it twice, and that was when it first came out.

The screen went black from my gameplay.

My opinon has changed and I now beleive that Ulic would defeat Revan if not without a difficult fight.

Revan is the most badass character (personality wise) that I know of, he's a ridiculous fighter, but I don't attempt to overrate his abilities. Ulic vs. Revan would be an awesome dogfight. I'd pay to watch that.

I'd pay to not be on the same block as it, too. It could get ugly.

Yeah, and you know it will become involved. If Revan can gain tactical advantages with his mind, such as high ground or using the terrain to his advantage, he should win this; otherwise Ulic has all the tools to beat him.

Does whoever had stats for Luke and Mrka have stats for Ulic and Malak(I'm guessing they wouldn't have any for Revan.).

Since I am a cheating bastard my stats for Revan were all maxed out to like 100 or somthing...

ulic quel droma is better at his peak than revan was but revan may have bested droma after the sith wars were over

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Does whoever had stats for Luke and Mrka have stats for Ulic and Malak(I'm guessing they wouldn't have any for Revan.).

There's stats for them. I've seen them somewhere.

i got stats for ulic and exar kun

here they are:

exar kun (and after lookin at his stats he's a pure bad ass - even though we knew that already)

jedi guardian 9/ sith lord 8
str 17, dex 16, con 17, int 14, wis 11, cha 13

force skills:
affect mind 13
alchemy 24 (wow)
battlemind 18
enhance ability 13
force defense 21 (wow!! higher than yoda or sidious and njo luke!!)
force push 14
move object 14
see force 12

feats:
ambidexterity, exotic weapon proficiency (double bladed light saber), exotic weapon proficiency (light saber), force-sensitive, heroic surge, two-weapon fighting, weapon focus (light saber), weapon group proficiency (simple weapons) weapon group proficiency (vibro weapons)

force feats:
alter, control, deflect blasters, force lightning, knight defense, light saber defence, master defense, rage, sense, sith sorcery

keep in mind however, that ulic doesn't look really great on paper in comparison but he did give exar kun quite a fight!

ulic
jedi guardian 11, sithlord 5
str 16, dex 16, con 16, int 14, wis 14, cha 14

force skills:
battle mind 15
drain knowledge 7
enhance ability 9
enhance senses 6
farseeing 8
force defense 11
force grip 12
force push 8
heal self 8
move object 14
see force 11
telepathy 10

feats: exotic weapon proficiency (light saber), force-sensitive, heroic surge, infamy, power attack, starship operation (space transports), weapon focus (light saber), weapon group proficiency (blaster pistols), weapon group proficiency (simple weapons)

force feats: alter, burst of speed, control, deflect blasters, knight defense, light saber defense, rage, sense.

i can post the stats of naga sadow, ludo kressh, mace windu, yoda, count dooku, sidious, vader, bane an others if you wish.

oh, as far as ulic and revan go, imo, uber ulic wins.

Ulic is really good, but Revan can beat him, IMO. But I don't know, because we really don't know Revans real power just yet.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Nai has some Nadd stuff, I believe, you should ask him to post it here.

Whoopie...well...

Nadd info:
Freedon Nadd started his career as a Jedi student at the Jedi Temple on Ossus approxematly 4,400 years before ANH. While being very strong with the force he failed his trials to become a Jedi Knight. Enraged with the decission of the Council, Freedon Nadd struck down the Jedi Master Matta Tremayne.

Now he started his way on the dark side path studying ancient Sith secrets but because he knew that there can only be one Dark Lord of the Sith at any time (and he thought there was a Dark Lord still alive somewhere) he thought that he could never become more than a Sith Acolyte - something that enraged him even more.

Led by the force Nadd moved to Yavin 4 where he ran across Naga Sadow who had entered suspended animation there after the events of the Great Hyperspace War and sought to complete his training under the Sith Lord. Before he finished his training he thought himself powerful enough to defeat Sadow and claim the title as a Dark Lord for himself - it is believed that he killed Sadow but that is not confirmed yet.

He travelled to Korriban where he gathered many ancient Sith artifacts and from Korriban he moved to Onderon - at this time one of the richest planets in known space - to establish his own Sith Empire.

Armed only with a short lightsaber and a blaster pistol (and his force powers) he conquered the entire planet on his own and nearly destroyed the entire population of Beast Riders using Sith magic only. He ruled over the planet until the Jedi send an army of force users to destroy him but Nadd did kill many Jedi (shooting them with his blaster) before he was defeated but he was able to preserve his spirit in a Sith amulet he found on Korriban and so his spirit still influenced the rulers of Onderon. That was the reason Sith magic was very common among the people of Iziz.

400 years later the descendants of Freedon Nadd (Queen Amanoa and King Ommin) created serveral revolts to finally exterminate the Beast Riders. The first revolt under Queen Amanoa was stopped by a Jedi strike team supported by Master Arca Jeth who used battle meditation to give the Beast Riders a chance to defeat the troops of Iziz, Onderons capital city. Shortly after that another revolt by King Ommin was started who kept Arca Jeth as a prisoner. That revolt was called the "Freedon Nadd uprising" and it lasted until Ulic Quel-Droma cut down King Ommins exo-sceleton. The king was still alive when Freedon Nadd's spirit reappeared and ended the life of his descendant.

After this Exar Kun discovered the amulet Nadd has preserved his spirit in and Nadd started to manipulate Kun, pulling him to the dark side. He led Kun to Korriban and Yavin 4 where Kun discovered more Sith artifacts which finally made him more powerful than Nadd's spirit could control and so Kun - while taking control of the Massasi on Yavin 4 - finally exterminated Nadd's spirit.

For all we know Nadd is easily the most combative Sith Lord ever - at least the one with the most raw combat skills and fighting abilities considering the fact that he killed a decent amount of Jedi with his blaster (!), conquered a planet on his own and was able to waste entire armies with his force knowledge / Sith magic.

Originally posted by Darth Abominus
i can post the stats of naga sadow, ludo kressh, mace windu, yoda, count dooku, sidious, vader, bane an others if you wish.

oh, as far as ulic and revan go, imo, uber ulic wins.

If you could PM me all those stats that'd be cool.

also, about those stats, is Ulic really better than NJO Luke? They seem to be okay stats, but I doubt Ulic is better than Luke.

yub, i'll pm them to you. though i do agree, i doubt that ulic is better than njo luke.

i meant that exar kun's force defense is higher than NJO luke however.

Sorry...but the game stats suck...

Kun has a higher force defence than Ragnos and Yoda ?!

I think those stats are from different places.

Originally posted by Darth Abominus
yub, i'll pm them to you. though i do agree, i doubt that ulic is better than njo luke.

i meant that exar kun's force defense is higher than NJO luke however.

Just post them here, i'd like to see them.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Sorry...but the game stats suck...

Kun has a higher force defence than Ragnos and Yoda ?!

I personally think Ragnos would outclass Kun, but it's not out of the question.

Originally posted by Illustrious
I personally think Ragnos would outclass Kun, but it's not out of the question.

i agree, question is, can kun defend himself against force attacks that ragnos can send towards him? probably not.

the game stats are interesting but i'd take them with a grain of salt, ulic didn't seem so impressive, but, he did give kun a run for his money.

Originally posted by Darth Abominus
nai i agree, question is, can kun defend himself against force attacks that ragnos can send towards him? probably not.

the game stats are interesting but i'd take them with a grain of salt, ulic didn't seem so impressive, but, he did give kun a run for his money.

Can you post the other statistics? I'd like to see the more comprehensive list.

You're right though, Kun's stats seem a bit bloated.

yeah I wouldn't put to much stock in the game stats, I just put them in for Marka because I thought it showed a rough idea of the power that the Lucas sanctioned people thought he had. I wouldn't base an arguement just on that though, some of them just do not make sense (Exar being that much better than Ulic, yet having a hard time beating him etc.)

About Kreia, well the reason I said that it was her instakill move was because we see the sith assassins reveal themselves, then the screen goes black. When it comes back however, you see that they fall dead, in the exact same place that they revealed themselves, so they all died instantly, now we don't know if she just flashed them or did her instakill, but we do know that they did die instantly without moving. So that is why I said that she likely did her instakill, however, you are right, there is no proof of that

Who else here thinks Exar Kun is overrated?

I already stated that I feel that he is overrated, or has become overrated in the last few hours.

I seriously agree.

i think exar kun is great but there's just no way he can have a higher force defense than yoda and marka ragnos, yoda maybe but no way above ragnos.

another thing could be was when was the time taken of ragnos, perhaps these stats were made up just when he took the mantle of dark lord of the sith? and in that time his skills must've grown considerably, which they already were significant.

anyhow everyone i'll make a post tomorrow, just gettin late and i'll have the stats of dooku, sids, mech-vader, sadow, kressh, bane, mace, yoda, obi wan etc.

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
yeah I wouldn't put to much stock in the game stats, I just put them in for Marka because I thought it showed a rough idea of the power that the Lucas sanctioned people thought he had. I wouldn't base an arguement just on that though, some of them just do not make sense (Exar being that much better than Ulic, yet having a hard time beating him etc.)

About Kreia, well the reason I said that it was her instakill move was because we see the sith assassins reveal themselves, then the screen goes black. When it comes back however, you see that they fall dead, in the exact same place that they revealed themselves, so they all died instantly, now we don't know if she just flashed them or did her instakill, but we do know that they did die instantly without moving. So that is why I said that she likely did her instakill, however, you are right, there is no proof of that

Damn...

Well okay, if the screen goes black it changes nothing. She could have just knocked them out with the force. Or crushed their bones... To bad..

Originally posted by Darth Abominus
i think exar kun is great but there's just no way he can have a higher force defense than yoda and marka ragnos, yoda maybe but no way above ragnos.

another thing could be was when was the time taken of ragnos, perhaps these stats were made up just when he took the mantle of dark lord of the sith? and in that time his skills must've grown considerably, which they already were significant.

anyhow everyone i'll make a post tomorrow, just gettin late and i'll have the stats of dooku, sids, mech-vader, sadow, kressh, bane, mace, yoda, obi wan etc. 2 things
1 where do these stats come from? KOTOR?
2 please do posts the stats here when you get the chance.

Originally posted by Darth Avis
2 things
1 where do these stats come from? KOTOR?
2 please do posts the stats here when you get the chance.

bump

Originally posted by Illustrious
I personally think Ragnos would outclass Kun, but it's not out of the question.

Well...I said the game stats suck because if you use them the PT characters would develop into threats for the Ancient Sith Lords.

Dooku (beginning of Episode II):

Jedi Guardian 15 / Sith Lord 3 (he's higher level than Kun !)
str 12, dex 14, con 13, int 16, wis 15, cha 16

force skills:
affect mind 12
battlemind 14
empathy 6
enchance ability 8
force defence 15
force grip 9
force lightning 9
force stealth 7
force strike 14
heal self 5
move object 11
see force 6

feats:
combat expertise, combat reflexes, exotic weapon proficiency (lightsaber), force-sensitive, improved initiative, iron will, persuasive, weapon focus (lightsaber), weapon group proficiency (blasters), weapon group proficiency (simple weapons)

force feats:
alter, attuned, control, force mastery, force whirlwind, knight defence, lightsaber defence, master defense, mettle, sense


Or...just to throw the heavy-hitter in

Yoda
Jedi Consular 20
str 8, dex 12, con 14, int 14, wis 19, cha 17

force skills:
affect mind 25
empathy 25
farseeing 27
force defence 17
heal another 10
heal self 20
move object 20
see force 24

(lmao !)

feats:
exotic weapon proficiency (lightsaber), force-sensitive, skill emphasis (Empathy), skill emphasis (Farseeing), weapon focus (lightsaber), weapon group proficiency (blaster pistols), weapon group proficiency (simple weapons).

force feats:
alter, burst of speed, control, deflect blasters, dissipate energy, force mastery, force mind, lightsaber defense, sense.


The problems with WotC d20 systems are:
a) system is capped at level 20 - I would doubt that Mace receives 14 times the exp of Yoda per year of lifetime...
b) it doesn't feature all force powers displayed in the comics / movies
c) character gain special abilities through level...
d) the WotC stats simply contradict the impression you get from many SW characters...