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I searched Darth Revan and nothing came up. This is Ulic at his peak (i never read the comics so...) vs post KOTOR Revan.

Revan

And no I don't have any reasons because its all based on quotes and not on in game movies so most people won't consider it good enough.

I'm leaning towards Ulic.

im a big ulic fan and at his peak i think he bests revan.

Christ Ulic is good and nice sig Janus

I can believe that Kun could take Revan...but Ulic? No way.

Thanks Avis.

Anyone want to get dirty and debate why Revan could beat Ulic?

Not really...

I can see this debate now

Somebody: Making lots of points for Revan
Other: No proof, makes points for Ulic
Somebody: But Revan, more points
Other: No proof, more reasons for Ulic...

Not going anywhere.

where is LD with his huge ulic post?

Check every other Kun/Ulic thread.

And you're pretty much right, Fishy. While we respect and like Revan, we won't touch him in a debate because he's too variable. Hell, he could very well be a she.

Yeah it could be..

Its just impossible to really defend Revan in any VS thread... Everything is based on an assumption and those are thrown away to easily sometimes and taken to serious at other times. I won't do it anymore, I just don't feel like it. At least not right now. So in this case I will just say Revan wins because I think he or she wins based on a lot of assumptions you can all throw away if you want.

Fair enough. I'm not gonna challenge that. I can understand how you feel. At least we have some reason to assume that Revan is good, based on his reputation.

Yeah and for some its enough and for some it isn't... I think we have established that in enough threads already I was kinda licking the absence of Revan in VS threads lately... Tobad he had to return and with something like this not exactly the easiest thing to judge.

well here is my huge Ulic post Avis:

He was born on the planet of Alderaan, his mother was a respected jedi master. However, he did not go in for jedi training until he was nearly 20. However, before that he applied himself in many physical and mental challenges, always learning more quickly than anyone else did and becoming the best at whatever he did, with no effort.

After becoming an apprentice to Jedi Master Vodo Siosk-Baas, Ulic, along with two other apprentices were sent to the planet of Onderon, to try and tame the dark side there. When on Onderon, they found a planet on the brink of war. The beastriders (people that could control animals) rushed the palace and captured the princess, Ulic and the other two padawans fought their way to the beastriders enclave and discovered that the Onderonians were in-fact the instigators of the conflict. However the dark side was too strong, so Ulic studied from a sith holocron, intent on learning the ways of the sith so that he could infiltrate them and destroy them from the inside. However, like all others who learned the ways of the dark side, Ulic fell to its power. While on Iziz (the capital city of Onderon), Ulic killed the king, who was in-fact possessed by the spirit of Freedon Nadd. When Nadd’s spirit emerged, he could sense Ulic’s power and declared that Ulic would be one of the greatest sith that the galaxy had ever seen. Then Ulic was given a sith amulet by Aleema Keto (the same sort of amulet that Exar Kun wore, it increased his power by a large amount), he then studied the dark side of the force under Aleema (who was a powerful darksider and had all the knowledge that Freedon Nadd possessed, his holocron, scrolls etc). However, Mandalore, ruler of the Mandalorians refused to bow down to Ulic and Aleema, Ulic went and defeated Mandalore, after this Mandalore pledged himself, and his troops to Ulic.

Ulic got so strong that Exar Kun was able to sense his presence across the galaxy. Exar tracked Ulic down; knowing that Ulic was the only person strong enough to defeat him. A furious duel occurred, with neither opponent gaining an advantage; he duelled Exar Kun to a standstill, when the sith amulets that both of them wore activated and the spirit of Marka Ragnos appeared. He declared Exar to be the master and Ulic to be his apprentice. Marka then said that the two of them together would bring about the return of the golden age of the sith.

However, Ulic became arrogant and decided to attack Coruscant before Exar decided it was time. Ulic was winning the battle when a subordinate betrayed him. After being captured by the Republic, Ulic was put on trial before the senate, however Ulic was defiant and told them that they would all die, these are his words: “You are puppets of tradition pretending to be important. The coming Golden Age has no place for you. Your Republic is an empty self-indulgent diversion... signifying nothing. The lost glory of the Sith will turn all of your supposed accomplishments to dust.” His confidence was rewarded as Exar soon came and freed him, while Exar duelled with his old master; Ulic proceeded to slaughter the senate.

After being freed by Exar, the two sith lords decided to go the jedi world of Ossus. The two sith went to Ossus undetected and stole ancient and powerful artefacts, scrolls and holocrons from the jedi, and the jedi were unaware of it happening. Very impressive since there were thousands of jedi knights and masters on the world. However, Exar blew up the sun of that world, alerting the jedi to the sith lords presence. Ulic and Exar got seperated, and Ulic was cornered by Cay Qel-Droma (his brother) and Nomi Sunrider, after a furious duel, Ulic killed his brother. After killing his brother, Nomi Sunrider removed his connection to the force, but she could only do that because Ulic was distracted, weakened and shaken by the fact that he killed his brother. After this, Ulic fled and went into exile for the next twenty years. However, he was to resurface on the galactic stage.

Even though he had lost his connection to the force, Nomi Sunrider’s daughter, Vima, sought Ulic out to train her, even though her mother was the most powerful jedi in the order and could train her or could get anyone else to train her, she chose Ulic. The two of them crafted new lightsabers, which is very impressive since Ulic was able to create a lightsaber without using the force. Since the jedi use the force to guide the crystals into alignment with each other, this is an impressive feat. After a while, Ulic agreed and started to train her, however, he was tracked down again by Nomi Sunrider and another jedi, a Cathar named Sylvar. Sylvar was a powerful jedi knight and had trained with Exar when he was still a jedi, she actually managed to wound Exar while they were training, that is how he got the three scars across his face (oh and Exar and Sylvar were the same age, it was not a knight beating up on a padawan). Later she fought against Exar and Ulic in the war, so she was powerful and had loads of experience (imagine someone like Juhani, but twice as strong and you get Sylvar). She had also continued to train during the 20 years Ulic was in exile. She came to hunt Ulic down and kill him, drawing her lightsaber, she tried to kill him, yet even without the force (which is what the jedi use to control and guide their weapon), Ulic was able to defeat a very powerful, experienced jedi master. After disarming her, Ulic turned to talk to Nomi, it was then that he was shot in the back by the pilot that brought Sylvar and Nomi to see him. Even though he had no connection to the force, he still disappeared, becoming one with it. Also, of great interest is what Nomi Sunrider said when she saw him disappear into the force, she said that only jedi masters could do that, meaning the Ulic had become a master before he died.

Four thousand years after his death, his spirit encountered Anakin Skywalker, who was on his quest to destroy the Dark Reaper, Ulic taught Anakin much, as well as warning him to follow the light. This is very impressive since spirits get weaker the longer they are around, and Ulic’s spirit was able to stay around for over 4000 years. So Ulic had incredible power, nearly equal to that of the great Exar Kun.

can you post a good pic of him?

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
well here is my huge Ulic post Avis:

He was born on the planet of Alderaan, his mother was a respected jedi master. However, he did not go in for jedi training until he was nearly 20. However, before that he applied himself in many physical and mental challenges, always learning more quickly than anyone else did and becoming the best at whatever he did, with no effort.

After becoming an apprentice to Jedi Master Vodo Siosk-Baas, Ulic, along with two other apprentices were sent to the planet of Onderon, to try and tame the dark side there. When on Onderon, they found a planet on the brink of war. The beastriders (people that could control animals) rushed the palace and captured the princess, Ulic and the other two padawans fought their way to the beastriders enclave and discovered that the Onderonians were in-fact the instigators of the conflict. However the dark side was too strong, so Ulic studied from a sith holocron, intent on learning the ways of the sith so that he could infiltrate them and destroy them from the inside. However, like all others who learned the ways of the dark side, Ulic fell to its power. While on Iziz (the capital city of Onderon), Ulic killed the king, who was in-fact possessed by the spirit of Freedon Nadd. When Nadd’s spirit emerged, he could sense Ulic’s power and declared that Ulic would be one of the greatest sith that the galaxy had ever seen. Then Ulic was given a sith amulet by Aleema Keto (the same sort of amulet that Exar Kun wore, it increased his power by a large amount), he then studied the dark side of the force under Aleema (who was a powerful darksider and had all the knowledge that Freedon Nadd possessed, his holocron, scrolls etc). However, Mandalore, ruler of the Mandalorians refused to bow down to Ulic and Aleema, Ulic went and defeated Mandalore, after this Mandalore pledged himself, and his troops to Ulic.

Ulic got so strong that Exar Kun was able to sense his presence across the galaxy. Exar tracked Ulic down; knowing that Ulic was the only person strong enough to defeat him. A furious duel occurred, with neither opponent gaining an advantage; he duelled Exar Kun to a standstill, when the sith amulets that both of them wore activated and the spirit of Marka Ragnos appeared. He declared Exar to be the master and Ulic to be his apprentice. Marka then said that the two of them together would bring about the return of the golden age of the sith.

However, Ulic became arrogant and decided to attack Coruscant before Exar decided it was time. Ulic was winning the battle when a subordinate betrayed him. After being captured by the Republic, Ulic was put on trial before the senate, however Ulic was defiant and told them that they would all die, these are his words: “You are puppets of tradition pretending to be important. The coming Golden Age has no place for you. Your Republic is an empty self-indulgent diversion... signifying nothing. The lost glory of the Sith will turn all of your supposed accomplishments to dust.” His confidence was rewarded as Exar soon came and freed him, while Exar duelled with his old master; Ulic proceeded to slaughter the senate.

After being freed by Exar, the two sith lords decided to go the jedi world of Ossus. The two sith went to Ossus undetected and stole ancient and powerful artefacts, scrolls and holocrons from the jedi, and the jedi were unaware of it happening. Very impressive since there were thousands of jedi knights and masters on the world. However, Exar blew up the sun of that world, alerting the jedi to the sith lords presence. Ulic and Exar got seperated, and Ulic was cornered by Cay Qel-Droma (his brother) and Nomi Sunrider, after a furious duel, Ulic killed his brother. After killing his brother, Nomi Sunrider removed his connection to the force, but she could only do that because Ulic was distracted, weakened and shaken by the fact that he killed his brother. After this, Ulic fled and went into exile for the next twenty years. However, he was to resurface on the galactic stage.

Even though he had lost his connection to the force, Nomi Sunrider’s daughter, Vima, sought Ulic out to train her, even though her mother was the most powerful jedi in the order and could train her or could get anyone else to train her, she chose Ulic. The two of them crafted new lightsabers, which is very impressive since Ulic was able to create a lightsaber without using the force. Since the jedi use the force to guide the crystals into alignment with each other, this is an impressive feat. After a while, Ulic agreed and started to train her, however, he was tracked down again by Nomi Sunrider and another jedi, a Cathar named Sylvar. Sylvar was a powerful jedi knight and had trained with Exar when he was still a jedi, she actually managed to wound Exar while they were training, that is how he got the three scars across his face (oh and Exar and Sylvar were the same age, it was not a knight beating up on a padawan). Later she fought against Exar and Ulic in the war, so she was powerful and had loads of experience (imagine someone like Juhani, but twice as strong and you get Sylvar). She had also continued to train during the 20 years Ulic was in exile. She came to hunt Ulic down and kill him, drawing her lightsaber, she tried to kill him, yet even without the force (which is what the jedi use to control and guide their weapon), Ulic was able to defeat a very powerful, experienced jedi master. After disarming her, Ulic turned to talk to Nomi, it was then that he was shot in the back by the pilot that brought Sylvar and Nomi to see him. Even though he had no connection to the force, he still disappeared, becoming one with it. Also, of great interest is what Nomi Sunrider said when she saw him disappear into the force, she said that only jedi masters could do that, meaning the Ulic had become a master before he died.

Four thousand years after his death, his spirit encountered Anakin Skywalker, who was on his quest to destroy the Dark Reaper, Ulic taught Anakin much, as well as warning him to follow the light. This is very impressive since spirits get weaker the longer they are around, and Ulic’s spirit was able to stay around for over 4000 years. So Ulic had incredible power, nearly equal to that of the great Exar Kun.

Hey Darkstar do you keep a word file with this or somthing?

Revan threads are horribly controversial. Actually, nowadays it seems like a thread is either too off-stream to consider or there's some fanboy or pro-person A who will argue until they'll blue in the face over something. Take the ROTJ Luke versus TPM Obi-Wan thread. Luke supporters don't have a leg to stand on, yet they believe Luke will win. ONe of them even went os far as to tell me we can't rely on OT battles because of limited eighties choreographyand that instead we should entertain the possibility that Luke is better than we physically saw him.

Revan threads always end up with people getting pissed at eachother...

Not necessarily pissed, but lets look at the thing here...

If i'm going into a debate about this, I will have to face Darkstar Janus possibly Nai Fohl and with some extra bad luck Faunus... Who will all be supporting Ulic. Now what will I have except for assumptions to argue with? Nothing. Can these convince them? No. So whats the point in debating? There isn't any. Its been done a thousand times already, we all know how it will, with people agreeing to disagree. Thats how threads with Revan will almost always end.

and now here is a Revan post (this is taken from Emperor Revan):

Revan was always powerful. Even as a padawan, his teachers were sure that he would become a champion of the Force. His master Kreia said "Revan was power. Staring into his eyes was like staring into the heart of the Force.” Revan had a lust for knowledge, seeking out every piece of information he could about the Jedi.

Later, Revan discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge (Malachor V). Only Revan’s immensely strong will kept him from immediately falling to the dark side. Revan plundered these tombs and relics, learning of the location and true nature of Korriban. He learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings. Malachor V fueled Revan’s tremendous dark side power, making him even stronger. Revan was a brilliant military strategist, and 1/3 of the Republic’s army was under Revan’s direct command. It was only because of him that the Republic defeated the Mandalorians. Somewhere around this time, Revan killed Mandalore and Yusanis, the most famous Echani warrior (and the handmaiden’s father.)

Revan then located the Star Forge and was powerful enough to control it without being consumed. Revan soon turned on the Republic and nearly conquered the galaxy. Countless Jedi knights fell in battle and many more swore allegiance to the new Dark Lord of the Sith. For two years the Sith were all but invincible. Only Bastila’s Battle meditation kept the Sith from total triumph.

Darth Revan then lost his memories and his connection to the Force when Darth Malak betrayed him and fired upon his ship. 1 year later, with relatively little Jedi training, Revan returned to Korriban and plundered the tombs of Marka Ragnos, Ajunta Pall, Tulak Hord, and Naga Sadow, gaining new Sith artifacts and fueling his new power even further. Revan even destroyed Ajunta Pall’s spirit.

Upon (if) returning to the dark side, Revan traveled to the Star Forge, fighting his way through dozens of dark Jedi to find his ex-apprentice Darth Malak. At this point, Revan’s power was even greater than when he was the Dark Lord of the Sith during his first reign. Malak didn’t even think it was possible for him to have gotten stronger since his first reign, but he was. Revan then killed Malak and retook control of the Star Forge, wiping out the Republic and nearly exterminating the last of the Jedi.

Soon after, Revan recovered his memories and all the knowledge he plundered while on Malachor V, enhancing his power even further. Darth Revan returned to Malachor V before heading into the unknown regions to fight the ancient Sith species. Charismatic and powerful, we still have yet to see Darth Revan’s full abilities since he was never defeated.



There, now that we have most of the info that any of us here knows on these two, we should be able to debate.


Actually, if anyone needs, I have have this same sort of info on Exar, Marka, Naga, Kreia/Traya, NJO Luke and Lord Hoth.
I am also making one up for Anakin Solo and can easily make one up for different characters if somebody wants.
If anyone wants the info that I have on the above mentioned characters, just PM me and if someone has a request for info that they want done, also please just PM me. Thanks

I'll take all of it, if you have the time to PM it to me.

Funny thing is, although that post could mostly be considered true much of it can still be debated... A shame some things were left out though, but ER never managed to defend Revan its fullest. Not enough creative thinking.

Originally posted by Veneficus
Hey Darkstar do you keep a word file with this or somthing?

actually yes I do, lol

Can you PM me all that stuff too?

Go ahead and post them all here, it'll be good to have it all out there.

It'll be a great fight, and I'm leaning towards Ulic. For Veneficus to say no way is very closed minded. At their peaks, no one could even touch Exar and Ulic, it wasn't like Revan and Malak where they at least had people that could resist them (such as Malak not killing Kavar). There was simply no one that fought Ulic and Exar and lived, save each other.

Nobody that challenged Revan lived... That we know off at least. We know Kavar ran from Malak. But we do not know how, perhaps he had a damn firing squad firing at Malak while he was running. Perhaps Malak let him live, or perhaps he was just barely beaten by Malak. We don't know.

Even so Kotor one makes it clear that nobody could defeat either one of them, both Revan and Malak were invincible to all but each other. Revan was the only thing that could have killed Malak. Kotor 2 kinda screwed that up by introducing Kreia. But Kreia is a heavy weight, especially if her insta kill power works. Then she is going to be a hard challenge for anybody and a lot of people will die because of her. Still making not killing Kavar says nothing about Revan.

We don't know how Revan beat Malak. We do know that Malak had a huge advantage in their fight too, the Star Forge made him more powerful and he absorbed Jedi making himself more powerful everytime he was about to lose. Again what does this mean? Well nothing, but it at least seems to suggest that Revan was highly superior to Malak. Who was superior to Kavar, maybe a by a bit or maybe by a little.

Again we know shit but it doesn't prove anything.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Go ahead and post them all here, it'll be good to have it all out there.

It'll be a great fight, and I'm leaning towards Ulic. For Veneficus to say no way is very closed minded. At their peaks, no one could even touch Exar and Ulic, it wasn't like Revan and Malak where they at least had people that could resist them (such as Malak not killing Kavar). There was simply no one that fought Ulic and Exar and lived, save each other. Ok ok...I admit that was closed minded

does anyone mind if I post all my info here?

No, and if they do ignore them...

go ahead

ok, then here I go. Just one thing that I ask, if you use any of this info on a thread, please give credit where due. Now then, Marka first:

Marka Ragnos was the ninth dark lord of the sith. He succeeded Lord Simus and beheaded him. However Simus was so powerful that he was able to keep his head alive, however Marka was even more powerful than Lord Simus was. Marka was a half blood sith, and half bloods were hated and considered to be abnormal and an abomination to the old sith. Yet Marka was able to rise up from the very pits of the sith empire to rule, unchallenged for over a hundred and fifty years. He was so powerful that he was able to die of old age, an unheard of feat in the sith empire since the sith challenged their master for control as soon as they thought that they had a chance of victory. Yet even with this mentality, and the fact that he was hated by all, nobody dared to challenge him, knowing that they would loose. They allowed someone that they hated and was an abomination to them to rule unchallenged for over 150 years. And this was during the height of the sith, their golden age. The ruling sith could easily throw stars around (Marka’s successor, Naga Sadow could, also it was not a power that was specific to Sadow; Exar Kun destroyed several stars, yes one was using Sadow’s ship, but the other was by himself, so if Exar could do it using only Sadow’s notes, it stands to reason that the other sith lords in Sadow’s time could blow up stars as well), yet they could not over-throw him. Even when he was weak and on his deathbed, they did not dare to challenge him. Imagine, there is a person who you hate above all else, has ruled over you, you have support to kill him, you can throw stars at people and rule over massive fleets that could destroy the republic. Also, if you killed him you would be rewarded above all and rule the galaxy. He is old, sick, dying with cancer and in extreme pain. Would you not think that you could kill him? Probably, but Naga Sadow, how had all that power that I mentioned, still did not think he had the power to kill Marka.

Actually, they hated him even more than they hated other half bloods because he did not expand the sith empire much during his rule. He only expanded the sith empire slightly because he did not want to encounter the Republic, he alone out of the sith knew what they had done to the old sith and he was unsure if they were still that strong. However, he still knew that the sith needed to fight, so he decided that he would make them all attack him. He got all the other sith to attack him so they wouldn’t attack the republic and reveal themselves. He did this knowing that if even one of them succeeded, he was dead, yet nobody succeeded. So he was in constant combat for a while, at least until the other sith realized that nobody could beat him. So he was in constant combat for at least several years.

Even after his death the sith still listened to him, his spirit returned while Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh were fighting for control of the sith and he ordered them to stop. They did. Just think, he is dead, and they hate him, but they will still listen to him, knowing his power. He was so powerful that he could even get the next two most powerful dark lords to stop fighting and bow down to him. He could get sith to stop fighting for the title of dark lord of the sith! That is very impressive since sith do not stop fighting for just anything, especially when they are fighting over something that important and it is a duel to the death.

Marka also had tremendous physical and force power and was huge physically. He used a massive sword with cortosis weave, meaning that lightsabers and blasters would not harm it. He also had a staff and his staff could steal force power from others, cause earthquakes as well as fire a ‘laser-like’ blast of force energy, which caused massive damage and could blast through solid rock. Also, he would have been very skilled with his weapons, having fought his way to the top of the empire. Kreia said that the best duellers in her day are like children wielding sticks compared to the duellers in ancient times. Also, in her day there were sith lords like Exar Kun, Ulic-Qel Droma, Darth Revan and Darth Malak, all considered to be excellent duellers, yet apparently, the ancient sith (whom Marka led unchallenged for over 150 years) outclass them all.

Marka was also very cunning and smart. He controlled and manipulated entire sith empire for over 150 years. He would not be able to be fooled in battle and would use the battle setting to his own advantage.

Over 1000 years later his spirit returned and told Exar and Ulic to stop fighting, even though they had no reason to listen and had no idea who he was, they listened because they could feel his power, he ordered them around and they did as he wished. He was so powerful that even 1000 years after his death his gloves still retained traces of his power and memory (allowing only dark-siders to wear them). Also even 5200 years after his death his staff still retains traces of his power and is a powerful weapon, able to steal the force and use it to charge non-force sensitive people with the force. It was so powerful, that even 5200 years after his death it still could restore him to life.

Also, It is not the act of blowing up stars that makes what Naga Sadow did so impressive; it's the enormous potential needed. Naga Sadow was very influential, as was Ludo Kressh. Of the two, I believe Sadow was the better, and would have had no problem solidifying his rise to power in any case. Look how easily he led the Sith against the Republic! Also, even though Naga could throw stars at people, he was still challenged for control of the sith after only a few months, maybe a year. And he could throw stars around! Naga was also a respected sith (or as respected as you can get). Marka was hated and he was still never challenged.

So influence wasn't keeping Sadow from gutting Ragnos, because everyone hated Marka and wanted to see him dead. He was a half-breed and Sith, true Sith like Ludo and Naga, hated half breeds. And it wasn't out of respect or loyalty that Sadow allowed Ragnos to live. Once you eliminate the possibilities, it becomes obvious that Sadow simply could not defeat Ragnos and knew it.


He is even far stronger than NJO Luke, here is info taken from the star wars revised core rule book and the dark side source book, both from Lucas:

Luke's abilities in NJO:
Affect Mind: 11
Battlemind: 8
Empathy: 10
Enhance Ability: 10
Enhance Senses: 6
Farseeing: 9
Force Defence: 6
Heal Self: 6
Move Object: 10
See Force: 10
Telepathy: 7

Force Feats:
Alter
Attuned
Control
Force mastery
Knight defence
Lightsaber defence
Sense

Feats:
Acrobatic
Combat reflexes
Exotic weapon proficiency lightsaber
Force sensitive
Weapon focus lightsaber


Now for Marka Ragnos
Affect Mind: 8
Alchemy: 22
Battlemind: 17
Control Mind: 19
Enhance Ability: 19
Force Defence: 18 (even stronger than Yoda's force defence!)
Move Object: 10
See Force: 12
Telepathy: 9

Force Feats:
Alter
Control
Drain force
Force lightning
Force mastery
Force mind
Rage
Sense
Sith sorcery
Sith sword defense
Sith sword expertise
Sith sword mastery

Feats:
Light and medium armor proficiency
Exotic weapon proficiency sith sword
Exotic weapon proficiency sith lanvarok
Force sensitive
Great fortitude
Power attack
Weapon focus sith sword

This shows that Marka Ragnos was far more powerful than even NJO Luke, and Luke was able to manipulate gravity and kill thousands of people in a single battle, yet Marka was substantially greater. Marka even had powers that NJO Luke had never even heard of.


When he was finally defeated by Jaden Korr, it was 5200 years after his physical body had died, and since spirits get weaker over time, he was a mere fraction of his former self. Yet he was still able to put up a decent fight against a powerful jedi knight, just imagine what he would have been like when he was alive.

now for the Kreia/Traya info:

Kreia was extremely powerful and wise, she was the person who trained Darth Revan, Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus and the Exile. Her first, and greatest apprentice was Darth Revan, and like him, she once held the galaxy by its throat.

She ruled at Trayus Academy, on Malachor V. Trayus Academy was an ancient outpost for the old sith empire and held much of their knowledge, Kreia learned it all. Also, before she became a sith, Kreia was a jedi historian, so she knew nearly every power that the light side had. It was from Trayus Academy that she sent out sith assassins to all parts of the galaxy. The sith assassins were trained to hunt and kill jedi. She also walked on the surface of Korriban and learned all the secrets that it had. She found ancient artefacts, scrolls and holocrons and mastered them. However, Kreia did not restrict herself to using just one side of the force, she used both sides equally, allowing her an advantage over most other jedi and sith since they only use one side of the force. However, because she used both sides of the force, her apprentices, Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus grew tired of her teachings and betrayed her. However, it took both of them to take her down, with Nihilus doing most of the work, yet even against both of them, Kreia was able to escape.

After leaving Malachor V, Kreia wandered the galaxy. Eventually she discovered the jedi Exile and started to train him the ways of the force. If the Exile was lightside, he gathered together the three surviving jedi council members, including Master Kavar, the famed jedi warrior. Yet, when Kreia arrived, all she did was wave her hand and all three jedi masters and council members to boot, fell dead.

After this she returned to Malachor V, when Sion waited for her. However, before she could meet him, she was faced by dozens of sith assassins, however, with another wave of her hand, all of them fell dead before her. Remember the assassins are trained and able to kill jedi, but she killed dozens at one time with one wave of her hand. Then she went to face Sion, she easily dominated him and placed him back under her control. This is impressive since Sion was able to kill most jedi masters by himself, but Kreia was able to make him bow and scrape before her.

When the Exile arrived, she started to fight him, however her heart was not in it. We know this since she was easily able to dominate him a mere 3 or 4 days earlier (indeed she beat him with a wave of her hand), yet now she in only equal to him. I think that she wanted to loose since if she won it would be like a mother killing off her only child. Yet Kreia demonstrated amazing force abilities, she was able to levitate three lightsabers at once and control them to attack people. Fighting her would be like fighting three powerful jedi masters at once.

Kreia cannot see out of her eyes, yet she says that she could easily heal them if she wanted. However, she does not want to because instead she can see the force, allowing her great insight and a clearer vision than most anybody else can imagine.

Finally, Kreia could see accurately and far into the future. She was able to tell the end of the Mandalorians (Jango Fett) and the battle that it would involve. Here is the quote “They will die a death that will last millennia, until all that remains is their code, their history, and, in the end, the shell of their armor upon the shell of a man, too easily slain by Jedi.” This references both the fact that Jango wore Mandalorian body armor and his defeat on Geonosis.

I do not know how accurately she can read the future and if would help her in battle, but reguardless, she was able to slay three council level jedi masters with a wave of her hand and easily dominate the exile, who in turn was able to beat Darth Nihilus and Darth Sion. Kreia would be someone that could challenge almost every other jedi or sith.

Ulic info:

He was born on the planet of Alderaan, his mother was a respected jedi master. However, he did not go in for jedi training until he was nearly 20. However, before that he applied himself in many physical and mental challenges, always learning more quickly than anyone else did and becoming the best at whatever he did, with no effort.

After becoming an apprentice to Jedi Master Vodo Siosk-Baas, Ulic, along with two other apprentices were sent to the planet of Onderon, to try and tame the dark side there. When on Onderon, they found a planet on the brink of war. The beastriders (people that could control animals) rushed the palace and captured the princess, Ulic and the other two padawans fought their way to the beastriders enclave and discovered that the Onderonians were in-fact the instigators of the conflict. However the dark side was too strong, so Ulic studied from a sith holocron, intent on learning the ways of the sith so that he could infiltrate them and destroy them from the inside. However, like all others who learned the ways of the dark side, Ulic fell to its power. While on Iziz (the capital city of Onderon), Ulic killed the king, who was in-fact possessed by the spirit of Freedon Nadd. When Nadd’s spirit emerged, he could sense Ulic’s power and declared that Ulic would be one of the greatest sith that the galaxy had ever seen. Then Ulic was given a sith amulet by Aleema Keto (the same sort of amulet that Exar Kun wore, it increased his power by a large amount), he then studied the dark side of the force under Aleema (who was a powerful darksider and had all the knowledge that Freedon Nadd possessed, his holocron, scrolls etc). However, Mandalore, ruler of the Mandalorians refused to bow down to Ulic and Aleema, Ulic went and defeated Mandalore, after this Mandalore pledged himself, and his troops to Ulic.

Ulic got so strong that Exar Kun was able to sense his presence across the galaxy. Exar tracked Ulic down; knowing that Ulic was the only person strong enough to defeat him. A furious duel occurred, with neither opponent gaining an advantage; he duelled Exar Kun to a standstill, when the sith amulets that both of them wore activated and the spirit of Marka Ragnos appeared. He declared Exar to be the master and Ulic to be his apprentice. Marka then said that the two of them together would bring about the return of the golden age of the sith.

However, Ulic became arrogant and decided to attack Coruscant before Exar decided it was time. Ulic was winning the battle when a subordinate betrayed him. After being captured by the Republic, Ulic was put on trial before the senate, however Ulic was defiant and told them that they would all die, these are his words: “You are puppets of tradition pretending to be important. The coming Golden Age has no place for you. Your Republic is an empty self-indulgent diversion... signifying nothing. The lost glory of the Sith will turn all of your supposed accomplishments to dust.” His confidence was rewarded as Exar soon came and freed him, while Exar duelled with his old master; Ulic proceeded to slaughter the senate.

After being freed by Exar, the two sith lords decided to go the jedi world of Ossus. The two sith went to Ossus undetected and stole ancient and powerful artefacts, scrolls and holocrons from the jedi, and the jedi were unaware of it happening. Very impressive since there were thousands of jedi knights and masters on the world. However, Exar blew up the sun of that world, alerting the jedi to the sith lords presence. Ulic and Exar got seperated, and Ulic was cornered by Cay Qel-Droma (his brother) and Nomi Sunrider, after a furious duel, Ulic killed his brother. After killing his brother, Nomi Sunrider removed his connection to the force, but she could only do that because Ulic was distracted, weakened and shaken by the fact that he killed his brother. After this, Ulic fled and went into exile for the next twenty years. However, he was to resurface on the galactic stage.

Even though he had lost his connection to the force, Nomi Sunrider’s daughter, Vima, sought Ulic out to train her, even though her mother was the most powerful jedi in the order and could train her or could get anyone else to train her, she chose Ulic. The two of them crafted new lightsabers, which is very impressive since Ulic was able to create a lightsaber without using the force. Since the jedi use the force to guide the crystals into alignment with each other, this is an impressive feat. After a while, Ulic agreed and started to train her, however, he was tracked down again by Nomi Sunrider and another jedi, a Cathar named Sylvar. Sylvar was a powerful jedi knight and had trained with Exar when he was still a jedi, she actually managed to wound Exar while they were training, that is how he got the three scars across his face (oh and Exar and Sylvar were the same age, it was not a knight beating up on a padawan). Later she fought against Exar and Ulic in the war, so she was powerful and had loads of experience (imagine someone like Juhani, but twice as strong and you get Sylvar). She had also continued to train during the 20 years Ulic was in exile. She came to hunt Ulic down and kill him, drawing her lightsaber, she tried to kill him, yet even without the force (which is what the jedi use to control and guide their weapon), Ulic was able to defeat a very powerful, experienced jedi master. After disarming her, Ulic turned to talk to Nomi, it was then that he was shot in the back by the pilot that brought Sylvar and Nomi to see him. Even though he had no connection to the force, he still disappeared, becoming one with it. Also, of great interest is what Nomi Sunrider said when she saw him disappear into the force, she said that only jedi masters could do that, meaning the Ulic had become a master before he died.

Four thousand years after his death, his spirit encountered Anakin Skywalker, who was on his quest to destroy the Dark Reaper, Ulic taught Anakin much, as well as warning him to follow the light. This is very impressive since spirits get weaker the longer they are around, and Ulic’s spirit was able to stay around for over 4000 years. So Ulic had incredible power, nearly equal to that of the great Exar Kun.

Exar info:

Exar was an exceptional duelling master.
He also was able to freeze the entire (which had jedi that were in the building) with one spell and then rescue his apprentice and kill an extremely powerful jedi master and nobody could do a thing about it. This jedi master was also very similar to Yoda and been training for 600 years, also remember that the jedi master was training during the height or war in the republic so he knew battle better than Yoda did.
The jedi order also sent thousands of jedi to kill Exar. He was able to repel all of them long enough to preserve his spirit for thousands of years.

And Exar did study alot, Vodo-Baas says that Exar is the most powerful student he has ever trained and the most powerful force user of that time, and Vodo was similar to Yoda, he trained lots of jedi over a long period of time, and if Exar was the best, that means something.

Exar also studied alot, he was fascinated by the sith teachings in Vodo's holocron. Exar also learned under the ancient sith, like Freedon Nadd and Marka Ragnos, he would still be very smart. It is also worth noting that the ancient sith said that Exar would be the one to bring about the golden age of the sith and said that he was the Dark Lord of the Sith, over Ulic-Qel Droma.

Exar Kun was also able to destroy the entire massassani race, quite a feat. He drained their life force and used it to prolong his life.

His apprentice, Ulic, was a powerful jedi and dueller in his own right, but Exar was his unquestioned master and the ancient sith said that Kun would be the dark lord, not Ulic, this means that Kun is stronger than Ulic was.

He was also able to hide as a sith in the middle of the jedi stronghold (Ossus) and recruit jedi to become sith, without the jedi even knowing what he was doing, that's got to take some pretty impreesive power. He decived the best jedi in the order, took sith stuff and recruited new allies from the midst of the jedi ranks, lied to the jedi masters, and they couldn't even tell it was going on! Also, this planet (and its sun) were later blown up by Kun so anybody after him would have no knowledge of those things that Exar knew.

Also, he invented his own lightsaber, Exar was the person who invented the double blade lightsaber. He also designed his own unique style of duelling, something that he never tought to anyone and was lost after his defeat. So nobody other than him and Ulic had any idea what to expect from him (everyone else he faced ended up dead)

He is also an amazing dueller, after he decided to try against Vodo (a lightsaber master), Vodo died in around 10 seconds, before that Kun was just toying with him. Toying with him! In the middle of the senate chamber on the same planet as the jedi temple, he could still toy with one of the best duellers in the jedi order and win hands down.

Kun also learned loads of stuff from Ossus, which was later destroyed by him so anyone after him couldn't have learned anything from it, he also used sith holocrons and had the private notes of Naga Sadow, another sith who could blow up a sun. Naga was also a dark lord of the sith from 1000 years before Exar and was Marka Ragnos apprentice and had an amazing grasp of the dark side, Exar learned it all.
Kun was able to walk into the heart of the republic senate, freeze them all, kill their leader and a jedi master, and walk out, nobody could do a thing. This is in the heart of the jedi order! He was also able to kill a beast which is probably very similar to a terentek, or better, with very few problems. Exar was also able to walk into another jedi stronghold (Ossus), kill more jedi, steal the artifacts, and walk out again, unharmed. He was also able to destroy Freedon Nadd with no problems.

Think about how he died, he was faced against 10 000 jedi, and the republic fleet. Under those circumstances, anyone would have died. Exar died sure, but he was able to hold the entire fleet off with the force until he was able to figure out a plan to keep himself alive. Exar was able to kill off an entire race, numbering thousands, to keep himself alive, sure he was killed 4000 years later, but it still took 14 jedi, 12 padawans, Luke and Kuns old master to kill him. Think about it, 2 lightsabers, 12 padawans/knights, 2 jedi masters (including one of the most powerful jedi ever; Luke and the old version of Yoda, Vodo-Baas, he trained lots of jedi, for some reason I think of him like an old Yoda), to kill off Kun's 4000 year old ionized air particles! He must have been near godlike when he was alive.

When Kun walked, the ground shook underneath him from the shear power of the dark side emanating from his body.

Exar did invent his own style of lightsaber combat, the double blade, also, his double blade was different than any other double blade. He was able to move it faster and aim more than with other double blades. Also, since few people had never seen a double bladed sabre, it would throw them off. He can move his lightsaber so quickly that almost anyone he faced would be sliced before he knew what was going on.

Exar wore armor with a cortosis weave in it, allowing him to recieve hits from a lightsaber without doing him damage.

He was also a powerful sith alchemist and created several beasts.

Naga info:

Naga Sadow became dark lord of the sith after the death of Marka Ragnos. He duelled Ludo Kressh, but the duel was never finished because the spirit of Ragnos appeared and warned the sith that a scout ship from the republic had arrived. Sadow just proclaimed himself to be dark lord (actually they did have more politics and kidnapping and murder, but it doesn't really matter). And declared war on the republic, leading his ships into republic space, he used galaxy wide battle meditation, yet lost and was forced to retreat back to sith space. However, in the battles with the republic he dealt severe damage to it and blew up several stars. The reason he lost is because his apprentice, Gav Daragon, betrayed him and turned on him, destroying most of his fleet and causing him to flee. When back in sith space, he discovered that in his absence, Ludo had declared himself to be the dark lord, they had a space battle and Sadow won. However the republic had followed them and destroyed Sadows fleet, forcing him to flee. He went to Yavin IV with his massassani warriors where he died of old age. Some time later (1000 years), Exar Kun found Sadows old ship and used its power to destroy a sun.

He was a great sith alchemist, he created several beasts, one of which was a challenge for even Exar Kun, and that is 1000 years after he was dead. Naga Sadow was also the person who built most of the temples on Yavin IV, they were used to focus the dark side and increase its power.


Sorry, I thought I had more on him but I guess I don't, I will upgrade this info soon though

Revan info (taken from Emperor Revan):

Revan was always powerful. Even as a padawan, his teachers were sure that he would become a champion of the Force. His master Kreia said "Revan was power. Staring into his eyes was like staring into the heart of the Force.” Revan had a lust for knowledge, seeking out every piece of information he could about the Jedi.

Later, Revan discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge (Malachor V). Only Revan’s immensely strong will kept him from immediately falling to the dark side. Revan plundered these tombs and relics, learning of the location and true nature of Korriban. He learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings. Malachor V fueled Revan’s tremendous dark side power, making him even stronger. Revan was a brilliant military strategist, and 1/3 of the Republic’s army was under Revan’s direct command. It was only because of him that the Republic defeated the Mandalorians. Somewhere around this time, Revan killed Mandalore and Yusanis, the most famous Echani warrior (and the handmaiden’s father.)

Revan then located the Star Forge and was powerful enough to control it without being consumed. Revan soon turned on the Republic and nearly conquered the galaxy. Countless Jedi knights fell in battle and many more swore allegiance to the new Dark Lord of the Sith. For two years the Sith were all but invincible. Only Bastila’s Battle meditation kept the Sith from total triumph.

Darth Revan then lost his memories and his connection to the Force when Darth Malak betrayed him and fired upon his ship. 1 year later, with relatively little Jedi training, Revan returned to Korriban and plundered the tombs of Marka Ragnos, Ajunta Pall, Tulak Hord, and Naga Sadow, gaining new Sith artifacts and fueling his new power even further. Revan even destroyed Ajunta Pall’s spirit.

Upon (if) returning to the dark side, Revan traveled to the Star Forge, fighting his way through dozens of dark Jedi to find his ex-apprentice Darth Malak. At this point, Revan’s power was even greater than when he was the Dark Lord of the Sith during his first reign. Malak didn’t even think it was possible for him to have gotten stronger since his first reign, but he was. Revan then killed Malak and retook control of the Star Forge, wiping out the Republic and nearly exterminating the last of the Jedi.

Soon after, Revan recovered his memories and all the knowledge he plundered while on Malachor V, enhancing his power even further. Darth Revan returned to Malachor V before heading into the unknown regions to fight the ancient Sith species. Charismatic and powerful, we still have yet to see Darth Revan’s full abilities since he was never defeated.

Luke info (most of this is mine, but I did take some from somebody else, however I forget who, if it is you, tell me and i will give you credit):

1) Luke was able to charge through the entire Yuuzhan Vong HQ, basically on his own (yes Jacen and Jaina were with him, but it says in TUF that they did almost no work). Since this is the place where the YV leader is, there would be thousands of Vong, maybe even 10 000 or more, yet Luke wasted them all.

2) After doing that, he faced off against 7 or 8 slayers, can't remember which, either way it is impressive, Kyp who is supposedly very powerful could not even take one and he landed dozens of hits. Yet Luke was able to kill them with one hit, that means he is either exceptionally strong, or he was powering his weapon with the force.

3) Then he defeated the Supreme Overlord, who on his own would be a match for many jedi.

4) In the final YV battle, Luke used an unknown power, to instantly kill a slayer. It is described as being like green sparks (so maybe force lightning). Jaina also describes him as being like the centre of the force. The force flowing through him, he was like a malestrom of force energy, unstoppable. Jaina also described him as being calm and focused, and his blade with like 10 or 20, all moving at the same time, with one purpose.

5) Luke was also able to manipulate black holes and gravity.

6) Luke was also able to knock down AT-AT's like they were nothing, he could also destroy entire armies with the force.

7) In the Black Fleet Crisis, Luke removed an entire planet from view using the force, he said it should last indefinently. He was also able to make himself invisible and unable to be sensed through the force. Also in the Black Fleet Crisis Luke rebuilt Vader's old fortress, he also made it invisible. He did all this with out being sensed through the force, and this is on Courscant, the same planet that Leia was on and she was actively searching for him with the force.

8) Luke also trained underneath the clone emperor, so he would know about the sith as well as the jedi. Luke also defeated the Emperor's force storm, which was massive and able to destroy ships. Luke also was able to out-duel the Emperor and destroyed one of his clones that way. After the Emperor’s death, Luke took his holocron and learned everything he could from it, so at least 1000 years of sith knowledge.

9) After defeating the clone emperor, Luke discovered an ancient jedi library, with long forgotten knowledge. Luke also didn't restrict his knowledge to just the jedi, he hunted all over the galaxy, searching for knowledge and power from everyone he met. Luke also learned under the emperor. He also had both Obi-Wan’s and Yoda’s holocrons which he studied from, with both of those, he would have most of the knowledge of the jedi.

10) Finally, Luke deflected the emperors lightning for a bit in RotJ (this is the special edition book and it was also in the script), this was the first time he had ever seen this power so the fact that he could deflect it for a bit when it was the first time he had ever seen it is very impressive. Even more so when you consider that Yoda even had some trouble deflecting it in RotS. This is to point out that Luke could deflect anything that almost anyone could throw at him

He also beat Vader, (to a degree), the vision of Vader, he confronted the Emperor, Jorus C'baoth(this is a very important fight, I will go into detail as to why it is so important in a minute), Shimera (the most powerful out of a species of warriors, basicly a DLOS, but scaled down a little), Emperor Reborn, Exar Kun, hundreds of Reborn people (the one's from Jedi Academy. I know it only shows Jaden fighting them, but Luke has to have fought a lot also, probably more then Jaden did. And I also know that they are basically regular people swing lightsabers around. Still has to count for something though.), Dathomir Witches (these people can be pretty powerful in groups and brought down the Chu'thor. For those who don't know what the Chu'thor is, it was a mobile Jedi Temple. Yoda taught some people on it for a while. It doesn’t make much sense that some witches could bring down a ship full of Jedi, but they did somehow, there was probably not very many Jedi on it at the time and there was a probably a few hundred witches. I changed my mind, I'm not going to try and make sense of it.), Hethir, Brakiss, Keuller(another failed student.) and the Jennsarri

He also fought a lot of other force users, but I won't name them right now. Wait, there is another I will name, Luuke. Imagine fighting yourself to the death. It would be very difficult and you would need some outside interference to win, unless you were slightly stronger. Luke was slighty stronger and beat himself. This would be some intense fighting. You would also learn a ton.

And the reason that I said that Joruus is important is because the original, Jorus, became a Jedi Knight in only four years. This is how long it took Luke and this guy didn't even have Skywalker blood. This guy also became a very powerful Jedi Master like ten years after that.

I also haven't even named every force user that Luke fought, but that is enough to show he is very experienced.

Lord Hoth info (I believe that this was taken from Darth Glentract, however I may be wrong):

Lord Hoth was a famous Jedi Master who led the Army of Light against Lord Kaan's Brotherhood of Darkness during the New Sith Wars, until a final confrontation with the forces of darkness at the Battle of Ruusan.

It is likely that his name is connected with that of the planet Hoth, but it is not known if the planet is named for him or the other way around. The Jedi Master did fight a furious battle with Kaan on the planet, but the details of this encounter are unknown.

Regardless, Hoth was one of the foremost Jedi of his era. He clashed continually with his contemporary Lord Farfalla, whose foppish nature was a directly opposed to Hoth’s pragmatism.

Unlike the charismatic Farfalla, Hoth had little time for diplomacy, nor the delicate etiquette his rank sometimes required. Where he did excel was warfare—he was a superb tactician and, even in his advanced age, a warrior without peer. Lord Hoth was an echani, and thus had the ability of battle precognation. This allowed him to accurately predict attacks on him, giving him more time to respond. This ability also let him predict wars and battles, making him a master tactician.

Naturally, with war against the Sith, it was Hoth who was chosen to led the forces of the Jedi and the Republic. In his youth, Hoth believed he had the power to end the Sith threat single handedly, but the war ground on for decades with no end in sight.

The conflict hardened Hoth against the galaxy, and, by the time of the final battle of Ruusan, the once idealistic youth had become a bitter, cynical and haggard veteran. His closest friend and main advisor was fellow veteran Pernicar, while the Jedi that served under him included notables such as General Kiel Charny

Lord Hoth perished when Lord Kaan detonated the thought bomb.

After his death, Hoth's former Padawan, Johun Othone, petitioned the Republic to construct a memorial to the Army of Light on the planet of Ruusan.



Now, if anyone has a request for something I should make, or if you have any info that you have. I would love to have if, espically Freedon Nadd stuff. Anyway, hope that this helps

Nai has some Nadd stuff, I believe, you should ask him to post it here.

alright, I will do that

Are those really Marka Ragnos' stats? Does it elaborate on them (like is 5 an average Jedi, or something?)

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
ok, then here I go. Just one thing that I ask, if you use any of this info on a thread, please give credit where due. Now then, Marka first:

Marka Ragnos was the ninth dark lord of the sith. He succeeded Lord Simus and beheaded him. However Simus was so powerful that he was able to keep his head alive, however Marka was even more powerful than Lord Simus was. Marka was a half blood sith, and half bloods were hated and considered to be abnormal and an abomination to the old sith. Yet Marka was able to rise up from the very pits of the sith empire to rule, unchallenged for over a hundred and fifty years. He was so powerful that he was able to die of old age, an unheard of feat in the sith empire since the sith challenged their master for control as soon as they thought that they had a chance of victory. Yet even with this mentality, and the fact that he was hated by all, nobody dared to challenge him, knowing that they would loose. They allowed someone that they hated and was an abomination to them to rule unchallenged for over 150 years. And this was during the height of the sith, their golden age. The ruling sith could easily throw stars around (Marka’s successor, Naga Sadow could, also it was not a power that was specific to Sadow; Exar Kun destroyed several stars, yes one was using Sadow’s ship, but the other was by himself, so if Exar could do it using only Sadow’s notes, it stands to reason that the other sith lords in Sadow’s time could blow up stars as well), yet they could not over-throw him. Even when he was weak and on his deathbed, they did not dare to challenge him. Imagine, there is a person who you hate above all else, has ruled over you, you have support to kill him, you can throw stars at people and rule over massive fleets that could destroy the republic. Also, if you killed him you would be rewarded above all and rule the galaxy. He is old, sick, dying with cancer and in extreme pain. Would you not think that you could kill him? Probably, but Naga Sadow, how had all that power that I mentioned, still did not think he had the power to kill Marka.

Actually, they hated him even more than they hated other half bloods because he did not expand the sith empire much during his rule. He only expanded the sith empire slightly because he did not want to encounter the Republic, he alone out of the sith knew what they had done to the old sith and he was unsure if they were still that strong. However, he still knew that the sith needed to fight, so he decided that he would make them all attack him. He got all the other sith to attack him so they wouldn’t attack the republic and reveal themselves. He did this knowing that if even one of them succeeded, he was dead, yet nobody succeeded. So he was in constant combat for a while, at least until the other sith realized that nobody could beat him. So he was in constant combat for at least several years.

Even after his death the sith still listened to him, his spirit returned while Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh were fighting for control of the sith and he ordered them to stop. They did. Just think, he is dead, and they hate him, but they will still listen to him, knowing his power. He was so powerful that he could even get the next two most powerful dark lords to stop fighting and bow down to him. He could get sith to stop fighting for the title of dark lord of the sith! That is very impressive since sith do not stop fighting for just anything, especially when they are fighting over something that important and it is a duel to the death.

Marka also had tremendous physical and force power and was huge physically. He used a massive sword with cortosis weave, meaning that lightsabers and blasters would not harm it. He also had a staff and his staff could steal force power from others, cause earthquakes as well as fire a ‘laser-like’ blast of force energy, which caused massive damage and could blast through solid rock. Also, he would have been very skilled with his weapons, having fought his way to the top of the empire. Kreia said that the best duellers in her day are like children wielding sticks compared to the duellers in ancient times. Also, in her day there were sith lords like Exar Kun, Ulic-Qel Droma, Darth Revan and Darth Malak, all considered to be excellent duellers, yet apparently, the ancient sith (whom Marka led unchallenged for over 150 years) outclass them all.

Marka was also very cunning and smart. He controlled and manipulated entire sith empire for over 150 years. He would not be able to be fooled in battle and would use the battle setting to his own advantage.

Over 1000 years later his spirit returned and told Exar and Ulic to stop fighting, even though they had no reason to listen and had no idea who he was, they listened because they could feel his power, he ordered them around and they did as he wished. He was so powerful that even 1000 years after his death his gloves still retained traces of his power and memory (allowing only dark-siders to wear them). Also even 5200 years after his death his staff still retains traces of his power and is a powerful weapon, able to steal the force and use it to charge non-force sensitive people with the force. It was so powerful, that even 5200 years after his death it still could restore him to life.

Also, It is not the act of blowing up stars that makes what Naga Sadow did so impressive; it's the enormous potential needed. Naga Sadow was very influential, as was Ludo Kressh. Of the two, I believe Sadow was the better, and would have had no problem solidifying his rise to power in any case. Look how easily he led the Sith against the Republic! Also, even though Naga could throw stars at people, he was still challenged for control of the sith after only a few months, maybe a year. And he could throw stars around! Naga was also a respected sith (or as respected as you can get). Marka was hated and he was still never challenged.

So influence wasn't keeping Sadow from gutting Ragnos, because everyone hated Marka and wanted to see him dead. He was a half-breed and Sith, true Sith like Ludo and Naga, hated half breeds. And it wasn't out of respect or loyalty that Sadow allowed Ragnos to live. Once you eliminate the possibilities, it becomes obvious that Sadow simply could not defeat Ragnos and knew it.


He is even far stronger than NJO Luke, here is info taken from the star wars revised core rule book and the dark side source book, both from Lucas:

Luke's abilities in NJO:
Affect Mind: 11
Battlemind: 8
Empathy: 10
Enhance Ability: 10
Enhance Senses: 6
Farseeing: 9
Force Defence: 6
Heal Self: 6
Move Object: 10
See Force: 10
Telepathy: 7

Force Feats:
Alter
Attuned
Control
Force mastery
Knight defence
Lightsaber defence
Sense

Feats:
Acrobatic
Combat reflexes
Exotic weapon proficiency lightsaber
Force sensitive
Weapon focus lightsaber


Now for Marka Ragnos
Affect Mind: 8
Alchemy: 22
Battlemind: 17
Control Mind: 19
Enhance Ability: 19
Force Defence: 18 (even stronger than Yoda's force defence!)
Move Object: 10
See Force: 12
Telepathy: 9

Force Feats:
Alter
Control
Drain force
Force lightning
Force mastery
Force mind
Rage
Sense
Sith sorcery
Sith sword defense
Sith sword expertise
Sith sword mastery

Feats:
Light and medium armor proficiency
Exotic weapon proficiency sith sword
Exotic weapon proficiency sith lanvarok
Force sensitive
Great fortitude
Power attack
Weapon focus sith sword

This shows that Marka Ragnos was far more powerful than even NJO Luke, and Luke was able to manipulate gravity and kill thousands of people in a single battle, yet Marka was substantially greater. Marka even had powers that NJO Luke had never even heard of.


When he was finally defeated by Jaden Korr, it was 5200 years after his physical body had died, and since spirits get weaker over time, he was a mere fraction of his former self. Yet he was still able to put up a decent fight against a powerful jedi knight, just imagine what he would have been like when he was alive.

PWned!

Yeah, that's a wow. Does that make Marka have the highest offensive AND defensive force powers in the entire EU? Not to mention that arsenal of weapons? Sheesh.

Well, it IS a set of RPG stats, which mean we have to take an objective look at them. Set stats are about as irrational as DBZ power levels.

But it does give us a hint of his power, apparently, as the Lucasflim approved Wizards of the Coast imagined him. I just wonder if this is post OT era or Golden Age era. If post... da-amn

Yeah, that's crazy.

I'm actually more surprised by the info on Kreia...

You said she took out twelve sith assasins with a wave of her hand, this right but did she kill them or knock them out. Does anybody know? And did the technique she used back then looked like the technique she used against the Masters?

someone should do a marka ragnos vs exar kun thread.

Marka Pwnage

Originally posted by Maestro
someone should do a marka ragnos vs exar kun thread.

What makes you think Kun could beat Ragnos? I don't even know if Kun had the power to defeat Sadow, as great as Kun was, especially since the Ancient Sith were said to make those in his era look like children.

i child took 6 troopers lol

Originally posted by Fishy
I'm actually more surprised by the info on Kreia...

You said she took out twelve sith assasins with a wave of her hand, this right but did she kill them or knock them out. Does anybody know? And did the technique she used back then looked like the technique she used against the Masters?

This is suspicious. I played the game arguably more than anyone here, and all I saw was the screen go black; exactly what happened when the Handmaiden killed her sisters. If that's the case, did both of them do the same thing?

Originally posted by Darth Avis
i child took 6 troopers lol

But it was ZETT JUKASSA! zOMG he could pwn TPM Anakin!

no way that is TPM anakin

yeah, TMP Anakin pwns him.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
This is suspicious. I played the game arguably more than anyone here, and all I saw was the screen go black; exactly what happened when the Handmaiden killed her sisters. If that's the case, did both of them do the same thing?

You know when the Handmaiden fought her sisters, that was originally supposed to be a boss fight, but it was deemed to difficult. Same with fighting the Rancor in KOTOR 1. Why I mentioned that, I don't know.

Back on topic, I thought the screen went black too, but I've only palyed it twice, and that was when it first came out.

The screen went black from my gameplay.

My opinon has changed and I now beleive that Ulic would defeat Revan if not without a difficult fight.

Revan is the most badass character (personality wise) that I know of, he's a ridiculous fighter, but I don't attempt to overrate his abilities. Ulic vs. Revan would be an awesome dogfight. I'd pay to watch that.

I'd pay to not be on the same block as it, too. It could get ugly.

Yeah, and you know it will become involved. If Revan can gain tactical advantages with his mind, such as high ground or using the terrain to his advantage, he should win this; otherwise Ulic has all the tools to beat him.

Does whoever had stats for Luke and Mrka have stats for Ulic and Malak(I'm guessing they wouldn't have any for Revan.).

Since I am a cheating bastard my stats for Revan were all maxed out to like 100 or somthing...

ulic quel droma is better at his peak than revan was but revan may have bested droma after the sith wars were over

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Does whoever had stats for Luke and Mrka have stats for Ulic and Malak(I'm guessing they wouldn't have any for Revan.).

There's stats for them. I've seen them somewhere.

i got stats for ulic and exar kun

here they are:

exar kun (and after lookin at his stats he's a pure bad ass - even though we knew that already)

jedi guardian 9/ sith lord 8
str 17, dex 16, con 17, int 14, wis 11, cha 13

force skills:
affect mind 13
alchemy 24 (wow)
battlemind 18
enhance ability 13
force defense 21 (wow!! higher than yoda or sidious and njo luke!!)
force push 14
move object 14
see force 12

feats:
ambidexterity, exotic weapon proficiency (double bladed light saber), exotic weapon proficiency (light saber), force-sensitive, heroic surge, two-weapon fighting, weapon focus (light saber), weapon group proficiency (simple weapons) weapon group proficiency (vibro weapons)

force feats:
alter, control, deflect blasters, force lightning, knight defense, light saber defence, master defense, rage, sense, sith sorcery

keep in mind however, that ulic doesn't look really great on paper in comparison but he did give exar kun quite a fight!

ulic
jedi guardian 11, sithlord 5
str 16, dex 16, con 16, int 14, wis 14, cha 14

force skills:
battle mind 15
drain knowledge 7
enhance ability 9
enhance senses 6
farseeing 8
force defense 11
force grip 12
force push 8
heal self 8
move object 14
see force 11
telepathy 10

feats: exotic weapon proficiency (light saber), force-sensitive, heroic surge, infamy, power attack, starship operation (space transports), weapon focus (light saber), weapon group proficiency (blaster pistols), weapon group proficiency (simple weapons)

force feats: alter, burst of speed, control, deflect blasters, knight defense, light saber defense, rage, sense.

i can post the stats of naga sadow, ludo kressh, mace windu, yoda, count dooku, sidious, vader, bane an others if you wish.

oh, as far as ulic and revan go, imo, uber ulic wins.

Ulic is really good, but Revan can beat him, IMO. But I don't know, because we really don't know Revans real power just yet.

Originally posted by Illustrious
Nai has some Nadd stuff, I believe, you should ask him to post it here.

Whoopie...well...

Nadd info:
Freedon Nadd started his career as a Jedi student at the Jedi Temple on Ossus approxematly 4,400 years before ANH. While being very strong with the force he failed his trials to become a Jedi Knight. Enraged with the decission of the Council, Freedon Nadd struck down the Jedi Master Matta Tremayne.

Now he started his way on the dark side path studying ancient Sith secrets but because he knew that there can only be one Dark Lord of the Sith at any time (and he thought there was a Dark Lord still alive somewhere) he thought that he could never become more than a Sith Acolyte - something that enraged him even more.

Led by the force Nadd moved to Yavin 4 where he ran across Naga Sadow who had entered suspended animation there after the events of the Great Hyperspace War and sought to complete his training under the Sith Lord. Before he finished his training he thought himself powerful enough to defeat Sadow and claim the title as a Dark Lord for himself - it is believed that he killed Sadow but that is not confirmed yet.

He travelled to Korriban where he gathered many ancient Sith artifacts and from Korriban he moved to Onderon - at this time one of the richest planets in known space - to establish his own Sith Empire.

Armed only with a short lightsaber and a blaster pistol (and his force powers) he conquered the entire planet on his own and nearly destroyed the entire population of Beast Riders using Sith magic only. He ruled over the planet until the Jedi send an army of force users to destroy him but Nadd did kill many Jedi (shooting them with his blaster) before he was defeated but he was able to preserve his spirit in a Sith amulet he found on Korriban and so his spirit still influenced the rulers of Onderon. That was the reason Sith magic was very common among the people of Iziz.

400 years later the descendants of Freedon Nadd (Queen Amanoa and King Ommin) created serveral revolts to finally exterminate the Beast Riders. The first revolt under Queen Amanoa was stopped by a Jedi strike team supported by Master Arca Jeth who used battle meditation to give the Beast Riders a chance to defeat the troops of Iziz, Onderons capital city. Shortly after that another revolt by King Ommin was started who kept Arca Jeth as a prisoner. That revolt was called the "Freedon Nadd uprising" and it lasted until Ulic Quel-Droma cut down King Ommins exo-sceleton. The king was still alive when Freedon Nadd's spirit reappeared and ended the life of his descendant.

After this Exar Kun discovered the amulet Nadd has preserved his spirit in and Nadd started to manipulate Kun, pulling him to the dark side. He led Kun to Korriban and Yavin 4 where Kun discovered more Sith artifacts which finally made him more powerful than Nadd's spirit could control and so Kun - while taking control of the Massasi on Yavin 4 - finally exterminated Nadd's spirit.

For all we know Nadd is easily the most combative Sith Lord ever - at least the one with the most raw combat skills and fighting abilities considering the fact that he killed a decent amount of Jedi with his blaster (!), conquered a planet on his own and was able to waste entire armies with his force knowledge / Sith magic.

Originally posted by Darth Abominus
i can post the stats of naga sadow, ludo kressh, mace windu, yoda, count dooku, sidious, vader, bane an others if you wish.

oh, as far as ulic and revan go, imo, uber ulic wins.

If you could PM me all those stats that'd be cool.

also, about those stats, is Ulic really better than NJO Luke? They seem to be okay stats, but I doubt Ulic is better than Luke.

yub, i'll pm them to you. though i do agree, i doubt that ulic is better than njo luke.

i meant that exar kun's force defense is higher than NJO luke however.

Sorry...but the game stats suck...

Kun has a higher force defence than Ragnos and Yoda ?!

I think those stats are from different places.

Originally posted by Darth Abominus
yub, i'll pm them to you. though i do agree, i doubt that ulic is better than njo luke.

i meant that exar kun's force defense is higher than NJO luke however.

Just post them here, i'd like to see them.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Sorry...but the game stats suck...

Kun has a higher force defence than Ragnos and Yoda ?!

I personally think Ragnos would outclass Kun, but it's not out of the question.

Originally posted by Illustrious
I personally think Ragnos would outclass Kun, but it's not out of the question.

i agree, question is, can kun defend himself against force attacks that ragnos can send towards him? probably not.

the game stats are interesting but i'd take them with a grain of salt, ulic didn't seem so impressive, but, he did give kun a run for his money.

Originally posted by Darth Abominus
nai i agree, question is, can kun defend himself against force attacks that ragnos can send towards him? probably not.

the game stats are interesting but i'd take them with a grain of salt, ulic didn't seem so impressive, but, he did give kun a run for his money.

Can you post the other statistics? I'd like to see the more comprehensive list.

You're right though, Kun's stats seem a bit bloated.

yeah I wouldn't put to much stock in the game stats, I just put them in for Marka because I thought it showed a rough idea of the power that the Lucas sanctioned people thought he had. I wouldn't base an arguement just on that though, some of them just do not make sense (Exar being that much better than Ulic, yet having a hard time beating him etc.)

About Kreia, well the reason I said that it was her instakill move was because we see the sith assassins reveal themselves, then the screen goes black. When it comes back however, you see that they fall dead, in the exact same place that they revealed themselves, so they all died instantly, now we don't know if she just flashed them or did her instakill, but we do know that they did die instantly without moving. So that is why I said that she likely did her instakill, however, you are right, there is no proof of that

Who else here thinks Exar Kun is overrated?

I already stated that I feel that he is overrated, or has become overrated in the last few hours.

I seriously agree.

i think exar kun is great but there's just no way he can have a higher force defense than yoda and marka ragnos, yoda maybe but no way above ragnos.

another thing could be was when was the time taken of ragnos, perhaps these stats were made up just when he took the mantle of dark lord of the sith? and in that time his skills must've grown considerably, which they already were significant.

anyhow everyone i'll make a post tomorrow, just gettin late and i'll have the stats of dooku, sids, mech-vader, sadow, kressh, bane, mace, yoda, obi wan etc.

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
yeah I wouldn't put to much stock in the game stats, I just put them in for Marka because I thought it showed a rough idea of the power that the Lucas sanctioned people thought he had. I wouldn't base an arguement just on that though, some of them just do not make sense (Exar being that much better than Ulic, yet having a hard time beating him etc.)

About Kreia, well the reason I said that it was her instakill move was because we see the sith assassins reveal themselves, then the screen goes black. When it comes back however, you see that they fall dead, in the exact same place that they revealed themselves, so they all died instantly, now we don't know if she just flashed them or did her instakill, but we do know that they did die instantly without moving. So that is why I said that she likely did her instakill, however, you are right, there is no proof of that

Damn...

Well okay, if the screen goes black it changes nothing. She could have just knocked them out with the force. Or crushed their bones... To bad..

Originally posted by Darth Abominus
i think exar kun is great but there's just no way he can have a higher force defense than yoda and marka ragnos, yoda maybe but no way above ragnos.

another thing could be was when was the time taken of ragnos, perhaps these stats were made up just when he took the mantle of dark lord of the sith? and in that time his skills must've grown considerably, which they already were significant.

anyhow everyone i'll make a post tomorrow, just gettin late and i'll have the stats of dooku, sids, mech-vader, sadow, kressh, bane, mace, yoda, obi wan etc. 2 things
1 where do these stats come from? KOTOR?
2 please do posts the stats here when you get the chance.

Originally posted by Darth Avis
2 things
1 where do these stats come from? KOTOR?
2 please do posts the stats here when you get the chance.

bump

Originally posted by Illustrious
I personally think Ragnos would outclass Kun, but it's not out of the question.

Well...I said the game stats suck because if you use them the PT characters would develop into threats for the Ancient Sith Lords.

Dooku (beginning of Episode II):

Jedi Guardian 15 / Sith Lord 3 (he's higher level than Kun !)
str 12, dex 14, con 13, int 16, wis 15, cha 16

force skills:
affect mind 12
battlemind 14
empathy 6
enchance ability 8
force defence 15
force grip 9
force lightning 9
force stealth 7
force strike 14
heal self 5
move object 11
see force 6

feats:
combat expertise, combat reflexes, exotic weapon proficiency (lightsaber), force-sensitive, improved initiative, iron will, persuasive, weapon focus (lightsaber), weapon group proficiency (blasters), weapon group proficiency (simple weapons)

force feats:
alter, attuned, control, force mastery, force whirlwind, knight defence, lightsaber defence, master defense, mettle, sense


Or...just to throw the heavy-hitter in

Yoda
Jedi Consular 20
str 8, dex 12, con 14, int 14, wis 19, cha 17

force skills:
affect mind 25
empathy 25
farseeing 27
force defence 17
heal another 10
heal self 20
move object 20
see force 24

(lmao !)

feats:
exotic weapon proficiency (lightsaber), force-sensitive, skill emphasis (Empathy), skill emphasis (Farseeing), weapon focus (lightsaber), weapon group proficiency (blaster pistols), weapon group proficiency (simple weapons).

force feats:
alter, burst of speed, control, deflect blasters, dissipate energy, force mastery, force mind, lightsaber defense, sense.


The problems with WotC d20 systems are:
a) system is capped at level 20 - I would doubt that Mace receives 14 times the exp of Yoda per year of lifetime...
b) it doesn't feature all force powers displayed in the comics / movies
c) character gain special abilities through level...
d) the WotC stats simply contradict the impression you get from many SW characters...