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who wins?

does yoda take him high and windu take him low?

does kun....um... do what he does best?

only thing thats for sure... some lucky passerby collects some major bounties

Exar Kun's power is considerable. Mace Windu might be good for his era, and Yoda certainly formidable, but Exar Kun has taken down a lightsaber grandmaster in -seconds-. He wins this.

yea lets add dooku is that good with you JJ311?

sounds good, pre sith or aafter he gives into the darkside, i'll let you decide Avis, it was your idea afterall.

Darkside is stronger lets go with DS dooku mace and yodu vs Uber Kun

vicious, thats a fight i would like to see... as long as i was a good distance away... for obvious reasons

That would be ugly. I know Dooku's good, and so is Mace and Yoda, but Exar Kun must be really fast, considering his idea of toying with a jedi lightsaber grandmaster is something like ten seconds. That was when he used two blades. With his own double bladed saber, he would be even faster. I don't know that the PT jedi could keep up.

This is scary when you consider that despite how über Kun is a saber combat, Tulak Hord was reputedly better.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
This is scary when you consider that despite how über Kun is a saber combat, Tulak Hord was reputedly better.

And you would expect Kreia to be biased towards Kun because she probably saw him fight or at least knew some of the Jedi he killed. I mean, you really cant get the same effect of hearing about someone fighting compared to actually seeing or seeing the direct effects of the fight.

This fight would be sick. Exar would be blinded by lightsaber swinging... His only hope is to seperate them if he can. I think he would struggle worse.. then the trio would.

If they surrounded him, the trio would win. He is just not fast enough to swing his lightsaber like that. I dont even think GG is fast enough for that.

I totally disagree, Akbar.

For one thing, Kun's lightsaber skills are merely one facet of his powers. His Force powers in general were considerable. If he fought soley using the lightsaber he has a good chance to win this. If he throws in some Sith magics, the trio is cleaned up. They do not have the ability to stand up to a Sith lord of this magnitude.

well I think that Exar would take this (I will not post my long thing about him unless someone asks, if you want it no problem, but ask please). Why do I think this? Well to start, he was easily able to defeat Vodo Baas, a 600 year old jedi master, extrememly wise in the force and a lightsaber grandmaster in under 10 seconds after toying with him. I think that Vodo would be very similar to Yoda, they were both old, and had lots of knowledge of the force. Since Vodo lived in a time of combat and he would have been to Ossus, he would have even had knowledge that Yoda didn't. Vodo, was also about Yoda's height, so Exar has experience fighting a person like that and would not be thrown off by it. So Yoda is down in around 10 seconds (well maybe 20-25 since he has help)

Now for Mace, he was struggling to hold back the Emperors force lightning, Exar could kick Dooku away, force lightning Mace (even if it doesn't harm Mace, it will still cause him to stop and deflect it), while Dooku is getting back up and Mace is deflecting Exar's force lightning, Exar can be killing Yoda holding his lightsaber in his other hand. By the time Dooku gets back into the fight, Yoda will be dead. And Dooku and Mace do not stand a chance agaisnt Exar's force power or his lightsaber skills they die as well.

Tha makes you think they CAN surround him Akbar? The guy shook the ground as he walked, he had awesome powers backing him up. And why woudln't he have a saber as fast as GG? Grievous doesn't have the force aid, he doesn't have a specialized double bladed saber BUILT for speed, and he doesn't have his own style that was once again... built for speed. And we all know Speed Killls...

Uber Kun would have just as good a chance as anyone.

Again, you're right Janus, the fact that Hord was reportedly better, and the fact that Hord was only amongst the pantheon of great Sith like Sadow, Ragnos, Kressh, Simus, and the like, we can only imagine their power as titanic. The term used in the TOTJ comics, "godlike," is accurate.

Indeed. Hail to the ancient chiefs.

yes, their power must have been amazing because I can hardly comprehend Kun's power, and if he was like a child compared to them (Kreia, KotOR II), then those ancient sith would have been power incarnate

Makes it hard to imagine Marka Ragnos, by all reports the greatest of the ancient sith, and the most powerful of the most powerful. Naga Sadow himself was past comprehensible.

Tulak probably only used 1 saber, if he was superior to Kun, he must have been downright insane with that blade.

Probably a blur o' death. I doubt he was one to mess around of he was a feared duellist. He probably killed in the first or second hit.

He could probably kill faster than the typical foo in the PT/OT era could even draw that lightsaber .

Hord is Ancient Sith for Pwn3d!

Hell yeah, especially if they still had to draw their lightsaber

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Probably a blur o' death. I doubt he was one to mess around of he was a feared duellist. He probably killed in the first or second hit.

He needs a pink lightsaber, that would be a warm and fuzzy blur of death.

Death by pink, eh?

Hord should be a jawa. That would be ultra fitting.

Indeed, a Jawa with a pink lightsaber, that's fitting.

WHY DO YOU GUYS ALWAYS BRING UP VODO WHEN YOU DEFEND EXAR KUN HE WAS ONLY WASTED BECAUSE HE DIDN'T USE HIS LIGHTSABER!!! Sorry about that but its really starting to annoy me. I mean he beat a man who was using a stick, thats really tough.

The stick that could resist lightsaber blows?

Only if he is stronger in the Force and we don't know how much stronger Exar was.

WTF? Where does it say that he has to be stronger in the force than his oponent to make his walking stick resistant to lightsaber blows?

Kun beat him prior to using his saber staff, and he toyed with him. Like it or not, Vodo's staff was able to resist his saber blows. He just got sliced up.

I do think Exar is being a little overrated. I doubt Vodo is as powerful as Yoda.

About Exar beating Vodo in ten seconds, was it really that short? I don't have that comic, but that seems a little on the low side. Yoda, Dooku and Mace, all at one time, I think could take him. I may be underrating him though.

Well then he has to have a crotosis weave because I have never seen anyone else do that without crotosis.

dont you mean cORtosis

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
dont you mean cORtosis

energy resistant metal

WHATEVER!!!!

It was a regular staff, Vodo just used the force to enhance it.

First off, Exar Kun's battle armor had a cortosis weave.

Second, Vodo was the -only- grandmaster of lightsaber fighting in hsi era or any other, really. You don't get a title that exclusive for sucking.

Third, Vodo was ancient himself.

Fourth, if Vodo can't defend himself with a stick against Exar Kun's onslaught (and this was in one page for the comic, five panels) he wouldn't do much better with a lightsaber.

Fifth, Exar Kun is not being overrated; you just like contesting the popular opinion all the damn time.

Sixth, he was able to do this while maintaining the Force power and concentration neccessary to freeze the entire senate and the jedi!

Wtf more do you need?

Woaaaaaah...people...please...
I think some people are really overrating Kun and hey - this comes from me - the Kun fanboy.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
First off, Exar Kun's battle armor had a cortosis weave.

Yes. He had cortosis weave on his battle armor but that thing isn't protecting his entire body and it wouldn't protect him from getting beheaded, losing his hands or getting his lightsaber destroyed. As far as I got it that thing was only protecting his upper body.



Erm...
Considering every information we have about lightsaber duellists of the Jedi Yoda is still on top of the ranks followed by Mace (who was simply naturaly gifted when it comes to lightsaber fighting - hell...he invented his own style being 13 years old and that invention required deep inside in form VI, V and VII. He would have kicked most Jedi in lightsaber combats being a Padawan himself) and Dooku.

And in the situation Kun killed Vodo, Vodo was using a walking stick. Therefore he had no chance to attack Kun because you won't be able to hurt somebody wearing cortosis weave with your walking stick and he used some part of his force powers to make that stick able to withstand lightsaber hits. So he:

a) wasn't able to use his entire fighting skills because his weapon limited him.
b) wasn't able to use all of his force powers

This in a situation where he had to resist Kun's Sith magic somehow (I guess it's save to assume that this also needed some force powers). Does that make Kun the uber duellist ? To create a similar situation: Imagine Yoda holding his cane in the one hand, deflecting Sith lightning thrown at him with the other and than have Sidious (who is using Sith lightning with one hand) cut him down with his lightsaber (wielded with the other hand). Would that make Sidious an uber lightsaber duellist ?

My point is that you can't really say that the situation Kun killed Vodo in was "fair" - in fact Kun had some huge advantages on his side. And did I miss the "that fight took 10 seconds" sign in the comic or where does that come from ?



Yes. Vodo was "ancient". But he had not reached Yoda's age (and experience).



See above. I guess he would have done much better in a "fair" situation and having his lightsaber.



I hope that doesn't count for me too...



He used spellcasting to do that. I doubt that he had to use any concentration to keep that spell up. That would pretty much contradict the entire idea behind "spellcasting".



To believe that Kun would be able to take Yoda and Mace (and Dooku) at once ? I would like to know where Kun had developed his lightsaber skills after the duel with Ulic since he had nobody on his level to spare with and nobody to fight...
And yes...he could use Sith magic against the opponents but what makes you think that Yoda and Mace (and Dooku) won't be able to resist it when Vodo was able to do that ?

People might call me a Yoda fanboy for that following stuff (just like in the "Yoda vs Revan" - thread) but I think that Kun would have a pretty hard time with Yoda alone. Throwing in Mace will most likely make him lose and adding Dooku is pretty much overkill.

And this because of a single fact: The Clone Wars cartoons. I know the might be quite stupid but at least they are all approved by Lucas - and if Lucas likes the idea that Mace can waste entire armies of combat droids on his own (using sheer force power) with Dooku being equally powerful and Yoda being even more powerful - then it must be Lucas own idea that the PT Jedi might be compareable to the ancient Sith Lords (in terms of combat abilities not thinking of the "blowing up planets"-stuff). And having this in mind it's quite hard to believe that Kun would survive that fight.

And the lord said... Amen.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Fifth, Exar Kun is not being overrated; you just like contesting the popular opinion all the damn time.

Nai already covered all the other points, so I defend myself here.

What is the popular opinion? Is it what YOU want it to be? Why do you always have to take a stab at me? Sometimes you sometimes stab in retaliation, but often you attack first. It seems to me that I am contesting the popular opinion when we are on opposing sides of the debate.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Nai already covered all the other points, so I defend myself here.

What is the popular opinion? Is it what YOU want it to be? Why do you always have to take a stab at me? Sometimes you sometimes stab in retaliation, but often you attack first. It seems to me that I am contesting the popular opinion when we are on opposing sides of the debate.

First, Nai is bias in favor of Yoda. While he did bring up some good points, I'm not about to drop anything and listen to him. I like Nai, he can put forward good stuff, but his adherence to Yoda being the best duellist of all time is starting to trickle into everything he says about the guy. He says in one breath that ancient Sith lords would play tennis with Mace's head without weapons, but that Yoda could take on Kun and Ragnos, despite the fact that Yoda didn't take out Sidious that easily, and Sidious is a ***** compared to the others.

Second, popular opinion I was refering to is this: Kun > Yoda or Mace by far.

Nai and you are the only ones arguing otherwise, and he's the only one to put up a truly cohesive argument. I think he's exaggerating Yoda entirely too much, but hey... whatever.

You, however, have had an attitude and go out of your way to pick at anything and everything I say in a debate, because you're either trying to make a name for yourself or you're trying to garner attention. Before you went to debate class, you weren't nearly this combative and nitpicky, and I liked you a hell of a lot better then. But now you're just a pain in the ass who rides in on everyone else's coattails (Such as Nai here) -or- you get a few non-heavies (read: people who usually don't form cohesive, long arguments for every other post) and take the opposing side to damn near evrything I take. I notice that if you don't have support in numbers, you won't venture a peep. And when someone like Nai disagrees with me, you're right in there, poking your little head in.

In short, you are being a little attention whore and pain in the ass. Please stop. Thanks.

You know I am probebly the only person here that never even really debates but just ocasanly posts his opinon.

And the above post is why.

Yeah, that's what having a double bladed lightsaber wielded at extreme speed and force powers the dwarf the other three do. His cortosis protects his torso, and his saber does the rest, like any sensible Jedi/Sith.



That doesn't mean he dies in 10 seconds either? The Jedi couldn't even defend himself against Kun, he just got slaughtered. Anything that lasts that short of a time indicates he would have been simply overpowered, lightsaber or not.



Substantiate that he had to use force powers/concentration to do it. In the comics, it didn't particularly look like he was doing that badly.



Age? Yes. Experience? Debatable.



That's another thing I'd like you to substantiate.

How is that Vodo "needed concentration" to break out of Kun's spell, but Kun didn't need concentration to hold the entire Senate and dozens of Jedi at least?



Substantiate? He slashed up a guy of similar style as him, so why would Yoda be any harder to hit for Kun?



But you have nothing to juxtapose the "cartoon" feats to the more Ancient Jedi/Sith. A few frames in a cartoon doesn't quite correlate with a live action cartoon. Until you can juxtapose it by contrast, you can't make an inference that they are greater.

Simply put, can you substantiate?

Originally posted by Deus Ex
I totally disagree, Akbar.

For one thing, Kun's lightsaber skills are merely one facet of his powers. His Force powers in general were considerable. If he fought soley using the lightsaber he has a good chance to win this. If he throws in some Sith magics, the trio is cleaned up. They do not have the ability to stand up to a Sith lord of this magnitude.

3 of the best jedi/sith in PT surround Exar and attack him, he cleans them up? ok....

Originally posted by Illustrious
Tha makes you think they CAN surround him Akbar? The guy shook the ground as he walked, he had awesome powers backing him up. And why woudln't he have a saber as fast as GG? Grievous doesn't have the force aid, he doesn't have a specialized double bladed saber BUILT for speed, and he doesn't have his own style that was once again... built for speed. And we all know Speed Killls...

Uber Kun would have just as good a chance as anyone.

Again, you're right Janus, the fact that Hord was reportedly better, and the fact that Hord was only amongst the pantheon of great Sith like Sadow, Ragnos, Kressh, Simus, and the like, we can only imagine their power as titanic. The term used in the TOTJ comics, "godlike," is accurate.

That just seems way to overpowered..

Originally posted by Illustrious
Yeah, that's what having a double bladed lightsaber wielded at extreme speed and force powers the dwarf the other three do. His cortosis protects his torso, and his saber does the rest, like any sensible Jedi/Sith.

I'd like to see somebody parry strikes coming from three different directions at the same time with a single lightsaber...



Sorry Illustrious...what kind of logic is that ? Of course he would last longer having a decent weapon and being able to use all of his powers. If I hand you a stick and make you juggle balls with one hand and than attack you with a Katana you will die faster compared to having a Katana yourself and not juggle that balls.



To do what ? Make his walking stick able to parry a lightsaber ? A lightsaber cuts through everything except a few metal materials. Jedi don't have "Sith alchemy" - so either he had to use force powers to make it happen or he had a cortosis walking stick which I would doubt...
Not even mentioning the fact that it is told he augmented the staffs strength using the force...



It is debatable that a 900 year old being has more experience than a 600 year old being ? Not even mentioning the fact that the 900 year old being had experience in frontline combat and face some of the best lightsaber duellists in his era where the 600 year old being did not ?



As I said: Spellcasting is spellcasting. You have to focus on a spell while casting it and not after you did it. And please - how powerful do you think Kun is ? The most powerful Jedi had problems lifting heavy stuff yet Kun should be able to freeze thousands or ten-thousands of beings including other force users and keep them under control using his mind while "toying" around with the best lightsaber duellist of that era. And I should substantiate something ?



Kun needed concentration while casting the spell but not after it. Imagine it like that: You are casting a spell that - once casted - will create an energy field that will freeze anybody who gets in it's range (yourself excepted). Now when you finished casting that field is there and you don't have to care about it any longer but anybody who enteres the field has to resist it or use concentration to break out of the spell.



Oh please. How many time did pass between Kun's and Ulic's duel and the time Kun was defeated. A year ? Yoda had 875 years (so about 35 generations of Jedi Knights to spare with) to develop his lightsaber skills where Kun had MUCH lesser time and only one decent opponent for lightsaber combat (Ulic).

How much do you think somebody who only has one opponent and some years (at best) of time can develop his fighting skills compared to somebody having 9 centuries of time and serveral thousands of different opponents to choose from ?



a) Vodo was actually bigger than Yoda
b) How you want to compare Yoda to Vodo in lightsaber combat when we never saw Vodo using a lightsaber ?

Can you substantiate that Yoda is similar to Vodo ?

@Janus


Pardon me ?
I said that "some" ancient Sith Lords would play tennis with Mace's head without even thinking of using their weapons but I was actually thinking of Ragnos (who would also play tennis with Yoda's head) and not about Exar Kun.

And when I talk about "saber skills" I'm talking about "saber skills" and not about "force powers". Of course Yoda would get his ass kicked by Ragnos, Sadow, Nadd and even Kun when it comes to force powers but at the same moment they engage in a sheer lightsaber fight they will lose because if three persons using lightsabers accelerating their movements with force powers aren't able to hit an unarmed Yoda how would a single person be able to do that to an armed Yoda ?

And here it's just the situation. I doubt that Yoda would be able to defeat Kun in a duel (same counts for Nadd, Sadow, Ragnos) but I also doubt that Kun would be able to defeat Yoda, Dooku and Mace at once unless he kills Yoda before the fight has even started...and I doubt that he would be able to do that...

Just think of it like that: What can Kun do ? Use Sith powers ? Great...for all we know he had to use spellcasting (= some amount of time) to freeze the Senate. The Massasi draining was part of a ritual (even taking a longer amount of time than the Senate freezing). So best he can give them is terrible powerful Sith lightning that can be deflected by lightsabers while we have seen Dooku deflecting some with his bare hands and Yoda simply absorbing it.

So this would result in somebody being pushed back. Yet Kun has to use Sith lightning on one opponent and fend another off with his lightsaber - that still leaves one opponent to cut him into pieces.

Or he doesn't use any force powers and tries to parry Yoda (a goddamn mixer aimed with a lightsaber), Mace (somebody using a lightsaber technique that is named after an animal that slashes opponents serveral hundret times per second and that Kun doesn't even know) and Dooku (using the "ultimate refinement in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat" - you better tell me how to do that.

So as far as my imagination goes all possible scenarios end with Kun dead unless you say he will simply throw an entire building on Dooku, Mace and Yoda (which he might do) but that would be spoiling the fun.

Omg way too overpowered, everyone here is making out Exar Kun seem like a "god" and that he could take on 15 Sith Lords at a time. Give me a damn break.

well actually D CP, the ancient sith were gods, go read page two on the Ulic vs Revan thread for lots of info on the ancient sith, however, here is the info on Kun again:

Exar was an exceptional duelling master.
He also was able to freeze the entire (which had jedi that were in the building) with one spell and then rescue his apprentice and kill an extremely powerful jedi master and nobody could do a thing about it. This jedi master was also very similar to Yoda and been training for 600 years, also remember that the jedi master was training during the height or war in the republic so he knew battle better than Yoda did.
The jedi order also sent thousands of jedi to kill Exar. He was able to repel all of them long enough to preserve his spirit for thousands of years.

And Exar did study alot, Vodo-Baas says that Exar is the most powerful student he has ever trained and the most powerful force user of that time, and Vodo was similar to Yoda, he trained lots of jedi over a long period of time, and if Exar was the best, that means something.

Exar also studied alot, he was fascinated by the sith teachings in Vodo's holocron. Exar also learned under the ancient sith, like Freedon Nadd and Marka Ragnos, he would still be very smart. It is also worth noting that the ancient sith said that Exar would be the one to bring about the golden age of the sith and said that he was the Dark Lord of the Sith, over Ulic-Qel Droma.

Exar Kun was also able to destroy the entire massassani race, quite a feat. He drained their life force and used it to prolong his life.

His apprentice, Ulic, was a powerful jedi and dueller in his own right, but Exar was his unquestioned master and the ancient sith said that Kun would be the dark lord, not Ulic, this means that Kun is stronger than Ulic was.

He was also able to hide as a sith in the middle of the jedi stronghold (Ossus) and recruit jedi to become sith, without the jedi even knowing what he was doing, that's got to take some pretty impreesive power. He decived the best jedi in the order, took sith stuff and recruited new allies from the midst of the jedi ranks, lied to the jedi masters, and they couldn't even tell it was going on! Also, this planet (and its sun) were later blown up by Kun so anybody after him would have no knowledge of those things that Exar knew.

Also, he invented his own lightsaber, Exar was the person who invented the double blade lightsaber. He also designed his own unique style of duelling, something that he never tought to anyone and was lost after his defeat. So nobody other than him and Ulic had any idea what to expect from him (everyone else he faced ended up dead)

He is also an amazing dueller, after he decided to try against Vodo (a lightsaber master), Vodo died in around 10 seconds, before that Kun was just toying with him. Toying with him! In the middle of the senate chamber on the same planet as the jedi temple, he could still toy with one of the best duellers in the jedi order and win hands down.

Kun also learned loads of stuff from Ossus, which was later destroyed by him so anyone after him couldn't have learned anything from it, he also used sith holocrons and had the private notes of Naga Sadow, another sith who could blow up a sun. Naga was also a dark lord of the sith from 1000 years before Exar and was Marka Ragnos apprentice and had an amazing grasp of the dark side, Exar learned it all.
Kun was able to walk into the heart of the republic senate, freeze them all, kill their leader and a jedi master, and walk out, nobody could do a thing. This is in the heart of the jedi order! He was also able to kill a beast which is probably very similar to a terentek, or better, with very few problems. Exar was also able to walk into another jedi stronghold (Ossus), kill more jedi, steal the artifacts, and walk out again, unharmed. He was also able to destroy Freedon Nadd with no problems.

Think about how he died, he was faced against 10 000 jedi, and the republic fleet. Under those circumstances, anyone would have died. Exar died sure, but he was able to hold the entire fleet off with the force until he was able to figure out a plan to keep himself alive. Exar was able to kill off an entire race, numbering thousands, to keep himself alive, sure he was killed 4000 years later, but it still took 14 jedi, 12 padawans, Luke and Kuns old master to kill him. Think about it, 2 lightsabers, 12 padawans/knights, 2 jedi masters (including one of the most powerful jedi ever; Luke and the old version of Yoda, Vodo-Baas, he trained lots of jedi, for some reason I think of him like an old Yoda), to kill off Kun's 4000 year old ionized air particles! He must have been near godlike when he was alive.

When Kun walked, the ground shook underneath him from the shear power of the dark side emanating from his body.

Exar did invent his own style of lightsaber combat, the double blade, also, his double blade was different than any other double blade. He was able to move it faster and aim more than with other double blades. Also, since few people had never seen a double bladed sabre, it would throw them off. He can move his lightsaber so quickly that almost anyone he faced would be sliced before he knew what was going on.

Exar wore armor with a cortosis weave in it, allowing him to recieve hits from a lightsaber without doing him damage.

He was also a powerful sith alchemist and created several beasts.

When Kun walked, the ground shook underneath him from the shear power of the dark side emanating from his body.

I don't think when the merchant in KOTOR said that he meant it literally. I think he was just a saying to say Kun was pretty powerful, but not a god. Just because he invented his own style and made his lightsaber 'different and faster' doesn't mean that he is really awesome. I can understand his force powers and all, but the lightsaber part is really overrated.

Interesting proposal, hmmmm, I would have to say, after a long battle, Yoda & Windu would win, with Windu tragicaly dieing

yoda take him high?
haha
im just teasing ya jim
no mace yoda and dooku
hmmmm
idk
the 3 would take him

this is how it goes. Exar jumps into the air and uses a force crush (he is a supreme master of the force) to kill, ohh, mace who jumped after him or didnt your choice but mace dies. Then when landing he uses a push to land safely. He charges dooku with lightning. remember this Exar>sids>dooku in the force. Kun can put so much power into his lightning that he knocks dookus lightsaber out of dookus hands before yoda reaches Kun. While dookus blade is in the air Exar will use a crush to break it. He will jump when yoda is right behind him and slay and unarmed dooku. Yoda is green sushi.

Now let me explain all this. Exar is Exar>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Mace in force powers so ripping the guys lungs or heart out will be easy.

Now the lightsaber is held in a HAND. When the huge amount of lightning hits a guy that cant bench press 20 pounds his blade is going flying. the rest is self explanitory.

Thats ridiculous. Your story is lame. You know.. Jedi can protect themselves. You make it sound so easy.. this is where fanboyism kicks in..

no Kun is just really strong

He isn't that strong. Stop being a gay fanboy.

Yeah, but your making him sound like he could take out Naga Sadow!

Which he actually might be able to do. . .

Not a chance. Naga would definatly take Exar.

Have you lost your mind Faunus!?

no way he can not beat Sadow. But he is very strong and that is unquestionable

Sorry for the double post but how the hell did Exar's power skyrocket?

I'm not sure.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
Have you lost your mind Faunus!?

Ah. So now the one person online who's not in your Exar-hating possy is out of their mind. . . interesting.

No but saying Kun can beat Sadow is ludicrous.

I agree with Simus, Exar is good, but not that good!

How so?

It took an extreme amount of cocentration just for Exar to throw a star where as Sadow did it for a living.

exactly my point

For a living is not correct. I think he did it twice, but he did just wave his hands and it blew up.

I'm just saying he could do that very easily.

Hey, since when was this thread about Kun vs Sadow

By that logic, Dooku couldn't block two lightsabers from two different directions and he would have died. But he didn't. Why? Because there never was a time when he was forced to make an impossible parry, his superior lightsaber prowess and force powers were able to manhandle his opponents.



But what proof does he have that he needed to do anything that would require as much concentration as juggling balls?

Besides, if you give me a stick that could resist a katana blow and our skills were similar, I could easily survive just as long as I can with a katana. In fact, I wouldn't need to worry about attacking, and I can slip into a defensive form.

You make it seem like I have no swordplay experience. Outside of fencing, we spar with wooden weapons, does that mean I am less effective at parrying? Hell no.

In fact, it seems like your logic isn't all there either, Nai.



You still didn't prove that he needed great concentration to strengthen his walking stick.

If he were rendered ineffective simply because he has to strengthen his walking stick, he probably would have carried a lightsaber. And as we see earlier in that same comic series, Vodo isn't too shabby with a walking stick, he was able to stalemate Kun once.



Are you reading EU I haven't even heard of? We know almost nothing about Yoda prior to him being 800 years old, just like we know very little about Vodo. For the most part, you agree with everyone else in saying the older Jedi with their battlefield experience were superior to the newer Jedi, but with Yoda, it seems to be the exception. That's called character bias.



Yes, you have to substantiate, because you made the claim that Vodo had to expend energy and concetration, but Kun did not. When you make a claim, you have to back it up. I saw NO EVIDENCE to suggest that Vodo was hampered in that fight whereas Kun was not. If you did, post the evidence.

Suddenly, you think you're an expert on Sith spellcasting, I must have missed the comic where a certain "Nai Fohl" learned how to freeze the senate and learned all the dynamics about it. Simply put, saying Kun did not need concentration while Vodo did is an unfounded assumption.



Hardly true.

Many books have spells wear off after the caster is defeated. Why? Because the spell required the constant magical energy of the caster. In fact, it's not even common logic to believe Kun's spell would follow your above statement, NOR is it said otherwise. Hence, you need to substantiate.



So the amount of time that passed is the end all of all debates? So an individual like Luke could not have possibly defeated Vader because Vader had more experience. So Revan could not have defeated Kavar, because Kavar was older and had more experience.

Stop bending rules around for Yoda. I know you love the character, but stop making him out to be a force/lightsaber god when he isn't.

How is it that Exar only had 1 opponent? He could pick a Massassi, any Massassi, and spar with it. He killed many Jedi in ACTUAL COMBAT, doesn't that count?

The fact you twist it around parameters by saying Exar only has 1 sparring partner while Yoda has hundreds is not only false and pretentious, it's counterintuitive to your argument. Your original argumens was that only Ulic was in Exar's league and no other practice was worthwhile. I could just as easily argue that only Mace was in Yoda's league. So those "thousands" of partners becomes rather pointless.



a) Vodo was still of similar size to Yoda, if he was bigger, it was not much more than a foot.
b) Oh please, simply because you replace a beam of photons with a straight stick of similar dynamic doesn't mean you don't use the broad side to deflect another lightsaber. The same dynamics don't change. That's like saying the techniques between using a rapier and Chinese Jian are vastly different; again false.



Simple, because none of those three were anywhere near the caliber of a Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, or Kun. And because melee collusion is difficult to come by.



You don't know the exact dynamics of how fast he was able to cast the spell. So again, making an argument off an assuption is simply non sequitur.



By that logic, the three of them are facing an opponent with a custom double-bladed lightsaber built for incredible speed, backed by a ridiculously powerful Sith Lord, and wielded by a technique none of THOSE THREE have seen either. Kun took his style to the grave with him.



They didn't skyrocket, they are just being put into a more realistic perspective. Saying Revan is a better fighter than Kun is being a KotOR fanboy, and after the reintroduction of f*cking cold, hard logic, that's becoming clear.

Well, this post is going to look like crap after what Illustrious just posted, but whatever.

Age doesn't matter a lot. Look at Yaddle. She was 477 and she wasn't even very good.

Originally posted by Illustrious
By that logic, Dooku couldn't block two lightsabers from two different directions and he would have died. But he didn't. Why? Because there never was a time when he was forced to make an impossible parry, his superior lightsaber prowess and force powers were able to manhandle his opponents.



But what proof does he have that he needed to do anything that would require as much concentration as juggling balls?

Besides, if you give me a stick that could resist a katana blow and our skills were similar, I could easily survive just as long as I can with a katana. In fact, I wouldn't need to worry about attacking, and I can slip into a defensive form.

You make it seem like I have no swordplay experience. Outside of fencing, we spar with wooden weapons, does that mean I am less effective at parrying? Hell no.

In fact, it seems like your logic isn't all there either, Nai.



You still didn't prove that he needed great concentration to strengthen his walking stick.

If he were rendered ineffective simply because he has to strengthen his walking stick, he probably would have carried a lightsaber. And as we see earlier in that same comic series, Vodo isn't too shabby with a walking stick, he was able to stalemate Kun once.



Are you reading EU I haven't even heard of? We know almost nothing about Yoda prior to him being 800 years old, just like we know very little about Vodo. For the most part, you agree with everyone else in saying the older Jedi with their battlefield experience were superior to the newer Jedi, but with Yoda, it seems to be the exception. That's called character bias.



Yes, you have to substantiate, because you made the claim that Vodo had to expend energy and concetration, but Kun did not. When you make a claim, you have to back it up. I saw NO EVIDENCE to suggest that Vodo was hampered in that fight whereas Kun was not. If you did, post the evidence.

Suddenly, you think you're an expert on Sith spellcasting, I must have missed the comic where a certain "Nai Fohl" learned how to freeze the senate and learned all the dynamics about it. Simply put, saying Kun did not need concentration while Vodo did is an unfounded assumption.



Hardly true.

Many books have spells wear off after the caster is defeated. Why? Because the spell required the constant magical energy of the caster. In fact, it's not even common logic to believe Kun's spell would follow your above statement, NOR is it said otherwise. Hence, you need to substantiate.



So the amount of time that passed is the end all of all debates? So an individual like Luke could not have possibly defeated Vader because Vader had more experience. So Revan could not have defeated Kavar, because Kavar was older and had more experience.

Stop bending rules around for Yoda. I know you love the character, but stop making him out to be a force/lightsaber god when he isn't.

How is it that Exar only had 1 opponent? He could pick a Massassi, any Massassi, and spar with it. He killed many Jedi in ACTUAL COMBAT, doesn't that count?

The fact you twist it around parameters by saying Exar only has 1 sparring partner while Yoda has hundreds is not only false and pretentious, it's counterintuitive to your argument. Your original argumens was that only Ulic was in Exar's league and no other practice was worthwhile. I could just as easily argue that only Mace was in Yoda's league. So those "thousands" of partners becomes rather pointless.



a) Vodo was still of similar size to Yoda, if he was bigger, it was not much more than a foot.
b) Oh please, simply because you replace a beam of photons with a straight stick of similar dynamic doesn't mean you don't use the broad side to deflect another lightsaber. The same dynamics don't change. That's like saying the techniques between using a rapier and Chinese Jian are vastly different; again false.



Simple, because none of those three were anywhere near the caliber of a Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh, or Kun. And because melee collusion is difficult to come by.



You don't know the exact dynamics of how fast he was able to cast the spell. So again, making an argument off an assuption is simply non sequitur.



By that logic, the three of them are facing an opponent with a custom double-bladed lightsaber built for incredible speed, backed by a ridiculously powerful Sith Lord, and wielded by a technique none of THOSE THREE have seen either. Kun took his style to the grave with him.



They didn't skyrocket, they are just being put into a more realistic perspective. Saying Revan is a better fighter than Kun is being a KotOR fanboy, and after the reintroduction of f*cking cold, hard logic, that's becoming clear.

I gues u have to watch ROTS again watch the fight, they were waiting for dooku. They dident strike right away. So its not possible really...

Illustrious stop being a Kun fanboy, seriously dude. My mom can beat Kun. And saying that Exar Kun is a better fighter than Revan is simply not true, because according to everybody else, "Revan is based on assumption" and therefore by saying Exar Kun is a better fighter is simply hogwash because we really don't know how good Revan is. You just can't compare Revan and Kun just yet.
You my friend, are clearly the fanboy.

Fanboys are bad, but antifanboys are bad too.

anti-anti-fanboys are also bad.

On what are you accusing me of being a anti-anti-fanboy for?

Originally posted by D_CP
Illustrious stop being a Kun fanboy, seriously dude. My mom can beat Kun. And saying that Exar Kun is a better fighter than Revan is simply not true, because according to everybody else, "Revan is based on assumption" and therefore by saying Exar Kun is a better fighter is simply hogwash because we really don't know how good Revan is. You just can't compare Revan and Kun just yet.
You my friend, are clearly the fanboy.

WTF? You need to go take a debate class, seriously.

Ever heard of burden of proof? Revan has very little proof behind him, meaning you can't prove he is powerful. The other side doesn't need to prove he isn't powerful, you have to prove he is.

Well obviously no one can prove that he is powerful or bad. So that means you can't compare Exar Kun and Revan, correct?

You guys take the proof thing a little far. Who needs proof anyway?



I'm just messing with you. Proof is important, but there is such thing as logic and many of you are very close minded when it comes to that.

Oh you mean Logic as in the Logic Mouse? Alright, I get you. We kewl.

Originally posted by Illustrious
By that logic, Dooku couldn't block two lightsabers from two different directions and he would have died. But he didn't. Why? Because there never was a time when he was forced to make an impossible parry, his superior lightsaber prowess and force powers were able to manhandle his opponents.

How far do you think could Exar Kun develop above Yoda, Dooku and Mace in terms of normal force powers and lightsaber skills ? He simply didn't have time to develop his fighting skills that far and he didn't have to fight against 2 people being far inferior to him in terms of lightsaber combat (like Dooku vs Anakin and Obi-Wan), he's facing three expert force users and lightsaber combatants here.



It's said in the comic that Vodo used the force to make his stick able to parry lightsaber hits - so he had to use concentration to do that.



It would still force you to just use defensive manouvers and that is cutting down your opportunities. Isn't it ?



Would you be able to defeat somebody who wears an armor that can't be penetrated / damaged with your weapon ?



Read the comic...



If Vodo was able to stalemate Kun once why would he get wasted by the same person now ? As I said: Kun hat no time to develop his lightsaber skills much and that means that Vodo was weaker than in the duel before. Why ? Because he had to use concentration to resist Kun's Sith magic ? Or do you see any other reason ?



Where did I ever agree with the older Jedi being superior to the newer ones ? I've argued on that point on any possible occasions because I dislike the idea behind it and it contradicts pretty much everything in the SW universe.

"Wars don't make people great." - Yoda's words. And now have a look at it: Who are the greatest swordfighters of the order ? Yoda, Mace, Dooku - all diplomats, all having very little fighting experience but they all would be able to kick people like Anakin and Obi-Wan.

And by the way: Which "older Jedi" there are with "battlefield" experience ? Arca Jeth, Ulic and Cay Quel-Droma, Nomi Sunrider ? Ulic has seen many battlefields but still he wasn't able to defeat Kun who has never participated in any fights to that point. And the KotoR time Jedi can be excluded since Revan used special units and assasins against them - they have even less "battlefield" experience than the PT Jedi.



Nice that you see no evidence...
a) It is said in the comics that Vodo used the force to augment the strength of it staff thereby making it able to withstand lightsaber hits.
b) We saw Vodo fighting Kun into a standstill and suddenly Kun (having had no time to develop his fighting skills) is able to "toy" with Vodo and destroy him quite easily ?



Whoa...
a) I was talking about spellcasting in general. If you can show me any source where a spellcaster has to concentrate on a spell after casting it I would really be astonished.
b) Show me the proof that Kun needed concentration after he did cast the spell...

This is getting even more unlogic because now you don't only have Kun toying with a person who fought him into a standstill just a short time before...no...now he's doing that while concentrating on freezing thousands of people. Sorry...that wouldn't work.



Sorry...freeze thousands of persons and destroy a person who had given you a good fight just a short time before is simply impossible at least unlogical storytelling at it's best.



You're comparing different individuals while I was comparing the same individual at different times. Kun was on Ulic's level in terms of lightsaber combat and suddenly he's god without having had any additional practice ? Nice try.



Actually Kun is my favourite character - not Yoda. But I don't give my favourite characters abilities they don't have. That is what a fanboy would do.



Opponents close to his skill level ? It is said in the comics (again) that Kun only saw Ulic as a threat (on the Sith side) while on the Jedi's side only Vodo, Cay Quel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider might have been a threat to him. And where did he kill many Jedi in actual combat ?



Still...how you're going to compare Vodo to Yoda ? You simply assumed that they are very similar. To use your own words: Substantiate it - because it's only an assumption and seeing that Yoda has 300 years more experience with the force, more frontline experience and fought quite skilled lightsaber duellists (Dooku, Mace) it's quite a stupid assumption.



None of those is anywear near Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh or Kun ? Powerwise you are right. In melee combat ? I doubt it. Are the people you named powerful enough to avoid melee combat with Dooku, Mace or Yoda ? Debateable...



He wouldn't be able to do that in the blink of an eye...and that is what he needs to do.



Kun's style was developed out of the existing lightsaber forms like any other style. So most likely all three of them would be able to explore known movements in Kun's style. I simply see a limit somewhere in developing "saberskills" that can't be crossed. Dooku, Mace and Yoda are quite near that limit and even Kun won't be able to get across it. So his only chance is killing them with far superior force powers - does he have them ? Using your own idea than Vodo could resist Kun's Sith magic without needing any concentration Yoda, Mace and Dooku would be able to do that too and again Kun would get his ass kicked.

Or wait...I will simply throw d20 stats in here: Kun's force defence 21, Yoda's affect mind ability 25. Yoda uses mind trick on Kun and Kun surrenders without any fight. This is getting ugly...

This is getting petty.

I'm gonna get into this myself when I get to work here within the hour. What i'm seeing here is a bloody clash of titans over something that wasn't contested until Yoda (Read: the only person in the SW series Nai Fohl gets personal and bias for, despite his claims of being a Kun fanboy) got in the crosshairs. Nai, you've argued that Yoda could overcome Ragnos in melee combat, despite the fact that Yoda couldn't even take on Sidious, who is a gnat compared to any ancient Sith lord, including Kun. Meh... I'm gonna be late. I'll speak more on this later.

How far do you think could Exar Kun develop above Yoda, Dooku and Mace in terms of normal force powers and lightsaber skills ? He simply didn't have time to develop his fighting skills that far and he didn't have to fight against 2 people being far inferior to him in terms of lightsaber combat (like Dooku vs Anakin and Obi-Wan), he's facing three expert force users and lightsaber combatants here.

Well, despite being a politician and a closet Sith, Sidious developed lightsaber skills to rival Yoda's in melee combat, and Force mastery nearly on par. In ROTS, Sidious can match Yoda blow for blow despite being on that little pod. Yoda is better, but not by that much. And Exar Kun would annihilate Sidious easily. If Yoda can't hang with Sidious and Sidious is well below Exar Kun (or any ancient Sith) how can you argue that Yoda and those beneath him (as you have argued, both Mace and Dooku are beneath him, if slightly) will pose so much as a great threat?

And where does the idea come that three jedi like Dooku, Yoda, and Mace even compliment one another good enough to batter down Exar Kun's lightning quick strikes? When you're swinging a blade made of energy that is able to make a space age blast door melt in on itself, you sure as hell don't mesh like three kids beating up one kid. Dooku's style is pretty methodical and efficient, but to counter both of Anakin and Obi-Wan's attacks (See ROTS first few strikes) he gave ground. Dooku never presses the attack; he never fights aggressively in the movies. If Exar Kun puts the heat on, Dooku's gonna backpedal. And in any case, he isn't the best partner in the world.

Second, Yoda's fighting style requires a LOT of room. And it's not exactly efficient, since Yoda wasn't able to disarm Dooku or Sidious in lightsaber combat despite being 900 years old and perhaps the best swordsman in the PT era. You keep acting like those extra three hundred years make a world of difference, and yet Yoda has next to nothing to show for it. If he can't overcome and kill two Sith lords who are easily a tenth of his age, he isn't as good as his age should suggest.

Lastly, Mace hasn't once demonstrated actually moving like a Vaapad, with the exception of his deflecting a gunship's blasts with two lightsabers. If anything, in the movies he moves slowly and methodically too. And his Shatterpoint isn't invincible; it took a decent length of time for him to find Depa's Shatterpoint, and he trained her. Also, he wasn't easily able to overcome Vastor who was essentially an untrained Force sensitive. (Granted, perhaps the meanest mother in the valley, but still, no Sith or jedi) Mace is good, but not that good. He would not last very long against Exar Kun, and with Yoda needing ridiculous room, not being able to overcome even PT era saber users in under a minute, and Dooku easily being put on the defensive, this is a very very terrible team. Think about that.


It's said in the comic that Vodo used the force to make his stick able to parry lightsaber hits - so he had to use concentration to do that.

Leaping to conclusions. Where did it say or show that Vodo was concentrating? Was Dooku concentrating when he choked Obi-Wan and backkicked Aakin Skywalker? Didn't appear to. Was Sidious concentrating when he was levitating three pods at once? Nope. Hell, even Obi-Wan dropped a piece of scrap on some Magnaguards without a moment's hesitation. What makes you think Vodo needs to concentrate for this? What makes you think concentration is key to this debate?


It would still force you to just use defensive manouvers and that is cutting down your opportunities. Isn't it ?

Tell that to Anakin.

Seriously... PLaying defensive can help a lesser combatant live longer. Simply give ground and play efficient. Obviously Vodo wasn't given the opportunity to do either. He was destroyed.


Would you be able to defeat somebody who wears an armor that can't be penetrated / damaged with your weapon ?

Smack him on the head. That shit will hurt. Haven'y you ever been attacked by an old man?


If Vodo was able to stalemate Kun once why would he get wasted by the same person now ? As I said: Kun hat no time to develop his lightsaber skills much and that means that Vodo was weaker than in the duel before. Why ? Because he had to use concentration to resist Kun's Sith magic ? Or do you see any other reason

First off, why are you contesting what is already there? Kun beat Vodo. It's done. Trying to undermine this fight is pointless, and just goes to show you can't prove a thing for Yoda, Mace, or even Dooku. As a team, they would suck something fierce. But instead you're seeking to undermine Kun. This sounds suspiciously like ER in the Ragnos versus Revan thread.


Where did I ever agree with the older Jedi being superior to the newer ones ? I've argued on that point on any possible occasions because I dislike the idea behind it and it contradicts pretty much everything in the SW universe.

This is news to me.


)The other half in a bit)

Now check out the five vs. Kun thread. A marvelous piece of work, that.

Well, since yoda requires more room to become an effecient fighter, him losing to sidious makes sense since he had very little room to do anything at all while sidious stood in the middle and just defended himself. ANd the dooku vs Yoda fight was what? less than a minute before dooku escaped.. If the fight went on any longer dooku would lose.
So he might just posibbly be as good as Nai suggests.

"Wars don't make people great." - Yoda's words. And now have a look at it: Who are the greatest swordfighters of the order ? Yoda, Mace, Dooku - all diplomats, all having very little fighting experience but they all would be able to kick people like Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Greatest swordfithers of the order? All diplomats? Nai, this needs elaboration. Since when did the PT jedi become amazing in the grand scheme of things? Does your stance change entirely whenever Yoda is considered? Be honest with me.



And by the way: Which "older Jedi" there are with "battlefield" experience ? Arca Jeth, Ulic and Cay Quel-Droma, Nomi Sunrider ? Ulic has seen many battlefields but still he wasn't able to defeat Kun who has never participated in any fights to that point. And the KotoR time Jedi can be excluded since Revan used special units and assasins against them - they have even less "battlefield" experience than the PT Jedi.

This is Illustrious' point here. I'm not about to argue with you on this. You are so far into the PT Yoda lovers' camp that you're, as I like to say, sorting the firewood and spreading their bedrolls. I'm not sure what it was that changed your overall view, but it's a bit distressing. It's sounding more and more like bias and less and less like old rational Nai Fohl.


Whoa...
a) I was talking about spellcasting in general. If you can show me any source where a spellcaster has to concentrate on a spell after casting it I would really be astonished.
b) Show me the proof that Kun needed concentration after he did cast the spell...

This is a nonissue. Spellcasting in the traditional fantasy flair doesn't apply here. This is Star Wars, not Dungeons and Dragons. Exar Kun does not have to pass a Concentration roll and rub the rabbit's paw in his left hand while crushing a gem in the right to make an attack. Sith magic is apparently Dark Side refined powers. Was there an instance where Exar Kun stopped to prepare the spell to freeze the entire senate? Did it say clearly that Exar Kun had to concentrate or didn't? Did it say that Vodo had to concentrate or didn't? Honestly, if this is the focal point of your argument, you need to take a look at your own group; Yoda closes his eyes and concentrates for damn near -everything-. I could argue that Dooku and Mace would be pushed back by Kun's lightning and Yoda would be forced to drop his saber and absorb it, assuming he could. Exar Kun's Force powers dwarf Sidious' by far, and Yoda could defeat Sidious, but at a high cost via force battles.

So before you go into another "omfg kun iz overrated" phase, look to the jedi and make a good argument FOR them.


This is getting even more unlogic because now you don't only have Kun toying with a person who fought him into a standstill just a short time before...no...now he's doing that while concentrating on freezing thousands of people. Sorry...that wouldn't work.

If you're gonna poo-poo this theory, at least try and disprove it soundly. Just saying "it doesn't work" doesn't convince me really.


Sorry...freeze thousands of persons and destroy a person who had given you a good fight just a short time before is simply impossible at least unlogical storytelling at it's best.

Actually, I was under the impression that Exar Kun beat Vodo before, as an apprentice. I'll double check that one.


You're comparing different individuals while I was comparing the same individual at different times. Kun was on Ulic's level in terms of lightsaber combat and suddenly he's god without having had any additional practice ? Nice try.

Third verse, same as the first.


Actually Kun is my favourite character - not Yoda. But I don't give my favourite characters abilities they don't have. That is what a fanboy would do.

You are coming off more and more as a Yoda fanboy. Putting forth the idea that Yoda would beat Ragnos in melee combat was perhaps the height of you overestimating Yoda's abilities. Considering that your faith i the little green jedi master is bordering on unrealistic, you have yet to give us some insight as to why Yoda and his fellow PT era saber users would even work well as a team and defeat someone of Kun's magnitutde.



Opponents close to his skill level ? It is said in the comics (again) that Kun only saw Ulic as a threat (on the Sith side) while on the Jedi's side only Vodo, Cay Quel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider might have been a threat to him. And where did he kill many Jedi in actual combat ?



Still...how you're going to compare Vodo to Yoda ? You simply assumed that they are very similar. To use your own words: Substantiate it - because it's only an assumption and seeing that Yoda has 300 years more experience with the force, more frontline experience and fought quite skilled lightsaber duellists (Dooku, Mace) it's quite a stupid assumption.



None of those is anywear near Ragnos, Sadow, Kressh or Kun ? Powerwise you are right. In melee combat ? I doubt it. Are the people you named powerful enough to avoid melee combat with Dooku, Mace or Yoda ? Debateable...



He wouldn't be able to do that in the blink of an eye...and that is what he needs to do.



Kun's style was developed out of the existing lightsaber forms like any other style. So most likely all three of them would be able to explore known movements in Kun's style. I simply see a limit somewhere in developing "saberskills" that can't be crossed. Dooku, Mace and Yoda are quite near that limit and even Kun won't be able to get across it. So his only chance is killing them with far superior force powers - does he have them ? Using your own idea than Vodo could resist Kun's Sith magic without needing any concentration Yoda, Mace and Dooku would be able to do that too and again Kun would get his ass kicked.

Or wait...I will simply throw d20 stats in here: Kun's force defence 21, Yoda's affect mind ability 25. Yoda uses mind trick on Kun and Kun surrenders without any fight. This is getting ugly...

Hell, I missed half of the post. Well, screw it. I'm at work. I'm entitled to goof.

Pretty good argument you got going here, but the word fanboy is like a low blow, and for Kun to beat all three masters who know each other's fighting tendencies is a little extreme, although I'm sure you'll think of something.

You're right. Fanboy is a harsh title. But well-earned around these parts, for sure. I used to be a Revan fanboy until I was born again.

Anyways, about this line:


Kun's style was developed out of the existing lightsaber forms like any other style.

Some proof for this?


So most likely all three of them would be able to explore known movements in Kun's style.

Conclusion based on earlier unproven premise. Show us how all three of them would be able to explore Kun's style before dying a quick death.


I simply see a limit somewhere in developing "saberskills" that can't be crossed.

This is a ridiculous assumption. For one, no one being could ever come close to the limit of developed melee attacks. Why? Well, you're telling me that Dooku, Yoda, and Mace have at least come close to learning how to deal with every single possible combination of movements the humanoid body can make with a weapon. Can you even give me a definate number of such movements? I highly doubt it. So how can they reach a limit in their time of relative peace on something that is near limitless?


Dooku, Mace and Yoda are quite near that limit and even Kun won't be able to get across it.

Read above. This doesn't make sense.


So his only chance is killing them with far superior force powers - does he have them ?

Now based on your earlier, unproven and unsound premise, you have concluded that Kun cannot defeat them possibly at all in saber combat and absolutely MUST use the Force. Next you'll be arguing Kun's Force mastery down to nothing, despite the fact that his ionized air particles (read: ghost 4,000 years after his death) could wipe its ass with Luke Skywalker.


Using your own idea than Vodo could resist Kun's Sith magic without needing any concentration Yoda, Mace and Dooku would be able to do that too and again Kun would get his ass kicked.

No, this doesn't follow. You need to prove to us that all three of them have the neccessary capability to resist such an attack, assuming it ever comes into play. And even if Yoda and perhaps Dooku could resist a freeze attack, you cannot assume that Exar Kun would lose. If that is his only Force power, he would be a poor excuse for a Sith lord, no?

Wow, I missed a good smackdown, I guess I'll tag in for the next one.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Well, despite being a politician and a closet Sith, Sidious developed lightsaber skills to rival Yoda's in melee combat, and Force mastery nearly on par. In ROTS, Sidious can match Yoda blow for blow despite being on that little pod. Yoda is better, but not by that much. And Exar Kun would annihilate Sidious easily. If Yoda can't hang with Sidious and Sidious is well below Exar Kun (or any ancient Sith) how can you argue that Yoda and those beneath him (as you have argued, both Mace and Dooku are beneath him, if slightly) will pose so much as a great threat?

Sorry Janus...
The one and only point that makes you keep the ancient Sith Lords in higher regard than Sidious is there special force abilities. Sadow could blow up planets - Ragnos was even greater and Kun...?
What did Kun ever do that "great" ? He has frozen the Senate. We know there is a forbidden Jedi technique called Moricho taught by Yaddle that is able to do exactly the same. Now...do you think that Yaddle is very powerful ? I doubt it.
That leaves the draining of the Massasi race. We know that Kun needed a ritual and the ruins on Yavin 4 to do that. It took him quite some time. Now we have dark siders (Revan and the Exile) with the possibility to develop "death field" knowledge which is exactly the same thing doing less damage to less individuals and they can use that "instant".

So...we have no proof that Kun is more powerful than the Exile, Revan or Yaddle in terms of force powers and that would make him weaker than you think.



Dooku doesn't need to fight aggressively since his form relys on precission. Of course he will go backpedal if Kun goes mad on him but would Kun be able to put Dooku out of the fight or disarm / kill him fast ? Debateable...even in a 1vs1 situation but this is 3vs1 against Kun.



Sure Yoda's fighting style requires a lot of room. But saying it's not effiecient...well...

He's pressing everybody he fights against in total defense. That's what happened to Dooku and it happened to Sidious (despite the fact that Sidious had the superior position). And 300 years make a difference of exactly 300 years - that's 150 % Vodo. And keep in mind that Vodo fought Kun into a standstill with a walking stick once. What would a creature with 50 % more experience and a lightsaber do to Kun ? Getting wasted ? Most likely not...

And please. Sidious - from Lucas own point of view - is the ultimate Sith Lord, the most powerful Sith of them all. From the EU point of view this is BS but from the EU point of view the people are far more powerful than shown in the movies (e.g. Mace in Shatterpoint and the Clone War cartoon). So comparing movie characters to EU characters while using only things seen in the movies is unfair - and you know that.



Wrong. Mace displayed his movement abilities best in his fight against Kar Vastor when he hits the guy more than 6 times in less than a second. Another display of that ability would be the clone war cartoon scene on Dantooine where he destroys the droids.
And Mace "Shatterpoint" ability is an instant ability. He simply looks at things and see the Shatterpoint. Where did you get the idea that it took him a decent length ?

a) He knew Depa's Shatterpoint before even haved reach her (making himself a hostage).
b) He knew Kar Vastors Shatterpoint instantly (that's why he acted like he did).
c) In the duel with Sidious he found Sidious Shatterpoint in less than a minute.

And he did fight Vastor without using his lightsaber and without using force powers first and put a decent fight up. Later it took Mace less than 5 seconds to disable Vastor and that was a point where Mace had put a lightsaber through his abdomen and was still injured from the previous battles.



It requires a constant force use to keep that stick able to deflect lightsaber attacks. So...he has to concentrate on that (if only a little bit).



Still the fact remains that he was "destroyed" by somebody he fought into a standstill a short time before. Explanation for this being what ? Kun developing supernatural force powers and developing into a god in months ?



Oh please Janus. On the same level you can say "Mace beat Sidious - it's done" or "Sidious beat Yoda - it's done". Since when do circumstances of a fight don't count here anymore ?
I'm not seeking to undermine Kun I'm just thinking of the situation and sorry...I don't believe that Person A would suddenly be able to simply overpower Person B within seconds if Person B did put up a good fight to Person A only a short period of time before. That's out of any logic...

That's like saying that Anakin would be able to destroy Dooku 2 months after their fight on Geonosis. How should that happen ? There must be a reason for that somewhere and the only reason for that fact in this case seems to that Vodo was not able to give Kun all he had since Kun wouldn't have been able to develop his own skills that far in such a short amount of time...

It will take a jedi master like yoda to figure out who will win this debate.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Greatest swordfithers of the order? All diplomats? Nai, this needs elaboration. Since when did the PT jedi become amazing in the grand scheme of things? Does your stance change entirely whenever Yoda is considered? Be honest with me.

Sorry...I never changed my oppinion on that topic. For me the Jedi did always grow stronger while the Sith grew weaker over time. The simple reason for this is that the Sith try to hide knowledge from their students while the Jedi learn everything their ancestors did learn and discover new knowlede. So...the PT Jedi are the "top" of the all time Jedi order (with NJO as the only exception).

Did I ever say something different ? I don't think so.




Janus you know that I'm quite well informed when it comes down to SW history and I have never seen somebody killing more than 5 force users (confirmed kills). In fact the list of the biggest Jedi killers would be:

1) Nihilus (for destroying an entire planet filled with force users)
2) Vader (Jedi Purge)
3) Sidious (killing 4 Jedi Masters)
4) Grievous

Ulic Quel-Droma killed Warb Null, Cay Quel-Droma and Satal Keeto
Exar Kun killed Vodo



Again I can ask what Kun ever did that is that great ? As I said...that Senate freezing action could have been done by Yaddle (some person that didn't survive a thermal detornator) and again Vodo had to concentrate on his stick at least.



Oh...didn't I do that often enough. Ok...just for the fun...again:

Yoda
Yoda was by far the most respected Jedi of the PT Jedi order. The first rule in the temple (according to Mace Windu) was that there is no contradiction against Yoda and in fact even the greatest force users did never break that rule.

Yoda's control over the force was great enough to accelerate his body more than any other Jedi could and he was able to deflect and even absorb force attacks that he (as far as we know) has never came across before.

For duelling skills Yoda is unrivaled in the PT era. He could outduell Count Dooku who practiced the "ultimate refinement in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat" in less than a minute and even without weapons Yoda is nearly impossible to hit (three Jedi Masters - Plo Koon, Depa Billaba, Saesee Tiin - failed to do that when trying) and dangerous considering the fact that he killed a Dark Jedi coming to Dagobah without having any weapon.

Mace Windu
Mace Windu was believed on being on par with Yoda. His exploits were simply legendary and even his own Padawan, Depa Billaba, being a Jedi Master and exceptional swordfighter on her own respected and even feared Master Windu's abilities.

Mace Windu is a natural talent when it comes to lightsaber combat. He developed his own style of ligthsaber combat being 13 years old - a style based on the most difficult form (VII) to master. At the end Master Windu had mastered forms I, IV, V, VII and his own form being Vaapad believed to be the most deadly of all lightsaber forms.

Armed with his lightsaber Mace Windu did nearly impossible things like destroying 3 gunboats at once and defeating multiple dangerous opponents like Asajj Ventress, Sora Bulq, General Grievous and Sidious himself and even without a lightsaber Master Windu has to be seen as an dangerous opponent being able to put up a decent fight to individuals like Kar Vastor and wasting entire droids of battle droids on his own without having his weapon.

Dooku
Dooku is said to be one of the most powerful Jedi that were trained in the Jedi temple in the last centuries. While Dooku had the skills and knowledge to be a Council Member his ideas did contradict the ones of the Council and so he never was part of the Council.

He trained Qui-Gon Jinn who trained Master Obi-Wan Kenobi and Dooku was known to not only be quite powerful with force powers but one of the best military commanders the Jedi Order had. He commanded the Jedi strike force that was send to destroy the Mandalorians on Galidraan.

In terms of lightsaber skills Dooku was only matched by Yoda himself while all other members of the Order where inferior compared to him with Mace Windu being the only one coming close to Dookus skills. His force powers - being great while he was a Jedi - even increased when Dooku joined the dark side to become Darth Tyranus.

Dooku had 8 decades experience in force use and trained his form II lightsaber style, being the "ultimate refinement in lightsaber vs lightsaber combat" for more than 60 years.



Oh please, Janus.
It simply unlogic that Kun would destroy somebody while focusing on freezing the entire senate when he wasn't able to defeat the same person only a short period of time before. You have to assume that either Vodo wasn't able to use the full extend of his skills but Kun was or you have to say that both weren't able to use all of their skills (because having to concentrate on other things) or you must say that Kun developed his skills beyond recognition within a very short period of time which is simply out of logic.

We know that Vodo had to concentrate on making his staff able to deflect lightsaber hits (told in the comics !) - he had to do that also when he first did fight Kun which had resulted in a standstill.

Now the only possible reasons for Kun wasting Vodo would be:

a) Kun developing far greater skills than he had shown in the duel against Vodo before which I say is simply impossible since he had neither time nor decent opponents to spare with
b) Vodo being distracted for example by having to concentrate to not being affected by Kuns spell.

Now can you please tell me why you and Illustrious prefer the more unlogic and less reasonable explanation (Kun getting far stronger without doing anything) over the more reasonable one ? I simply don't get it.
What you do is equal to saying that Luke in ROTJ is the far superior duellist compared to Vader instead of thinking about Vader wasn't really trying since Vader kicked Luke's ass pretty clear just 6 months before ROTJ in ESB.



Vodo did fight Kun into a standstill otherwise Vodo would have been dead already before Kun killed him on Coruscant.




a) Oh please. I've already said that force wise Ragnos would play tennis with Yoda's head. Melee combat is a different thing. We know that three Jedi Masters at once weren't able to hit Yoda - how would Ragnos (using a heavier weapon compared to a lightsaber and thereby moving slower than a lightsaber user) be able to do so ? You can't answer this because it's simply impossible. How would Ragnos be able to defend himself against somebody that simply moves faster than him - again a question nobody has given me an answer to up till now.

b)
It's seems quite paradox to me that you and Illustrious keep on telling me that "speed kills" used that as an argument for Kun in this case but simply ignore the fact that Yoda is definately the fastest force user there is since he is the only one that can simply avoid lightsaber strikes from 3 Masters without needing to parry one of them (and doing that nearly effortless).

c)
How they are going to not work well as a team ? Dooku is Yoda's padawan so they know each other inside out (at least Yoda knows Dooku inside out) and Mace and Yoda were sitting on the Council together for 25 years (and there are rumors - I don't remember this being said somewhere that Mace was another one of Yoda's padawans) - how would they NOT know eachother ? And we know that Dooku spared with Mace - again: How would they NOT know eachothers fighting style ?

The one and only point that makes you keep the ancient Sith Lords in higher regard than Sidious is there special force abilities.

Greater Force powers, greater Force mastery, greater Force atunement. This spells good fighter to me. If it would be such that people could have overwhelming Force mastery, etc. and be virtual bitches in combat it would not make any logical sense at all. Yoda, whom you have argued to be one of the best swordsmen ever, has a greater Force mastery than any of his peers. Force mastery and fighting skills are apparently related on some level. Unless you'd like to argue this. Then we can all just hang up our hats and write off everyone with impressive Force powers (Sadow, Ragnos, Nadd, etc.) as being inferior duellists to Yoda and DOoku and Mace and Sidious based on your accessment. So please, enlighten me on how fighting capability is NOT related?


Sadow could blow up planets - Ragnos was even greater and Kun...?
What did Kun ever do that "great" ? He has frozen the Senate. We know there is a forbidden Jedi technique called Moricho taught by Yaddle that is able to do exactly the same. Now...do you think that Yaddle is very powerful ? I doubt it.

Well, if Exar Kun can blow up stars and do feats that are unheard of in the PT era, it seems only natural that he would be definately superior to the Force users of that time. Unless you'd like to explain to us why Exar Kun is neccessarily weaker than we think him to be in this case?


That leaves the draining of the Massasi race. We know that Kun needed a ritual and the ruins on Yavin 4 to do that. It took him quite some time. Now we have dark siders (Revan and the Exile) with the possibility to develop "death field" knowledge which is exactly the same thing doing less damage to less individuals and they can use that "instant".

Don't argue to me game play stats, Nai. You poo-poo the RPG stats (and rightfully so) but then you pass of to me game play stats and mechanics as the "possibility" that Revan and the Exile use Death Field. I could just as easily say Exar Kun has the "possibility" to have all that and a bag of Nachos, but if there's no basis of fact, I should probably bark up another tree.


So...we have no proof that Kun is more powerful than the Exile, Revan or Yaddle in terms of force powers and that would make him weaker than you think.

What a mindjob, Nai. First off, I'd like you to cite an instance where Yaddle showed the ability to outduel anything. Second, cite the specifics of her powers and its limitations as she can use them with a reliable source. Third, don't argue the Exile or Revan based on game play mechanics to me ever again; you can beat the whole game with a stun prod for Christ's sake. You go do that and come back with a better argument.


Dooku doesn't need to fight aggressively since his form relys on precission. Of course he will go backpedal if Kun goes mad on him but would Kun be able to put Dooku out of the fight or disarm / kill him fast ? Debateable...even in a 1vs1 situation but this is 3vs1 against Kun.

Point being, Dooku doesn't compliment his fellows by being nonaggressive. He can be precise all day, but how does he compliment his fellows? How would this battle even take place in your mind, Nai?


Sure Yoda's fighting style requires a lot of room. But saying it's not effiecient...well...

It's not. Damn near every move he makes against Dooku in the AOTC fight was overexaggerated and unneccessary, and he was winded like a ninety year old mountain climber after a minute of fighting.


He's pressing everybody he fights against in total defense. That's what happened to Dooku and it happened to Sidious (despite the fact that Sidious had the superior position). And 300 years make a difference of exactly 300 years - that's 150 % Vodo. And keep in mind that Vodo fought Kun into a standstill with a walking stick once. What would a creature with 50 % more experience and a lightsaber do to Kun ? Getting wasted ? Most likely not...

This simply isn't true. Sidious did a couple of swipes and stabs, as did Dooku, that made Yoda stop for a saberlock. In fact, Yoda gets in saberlocks more than any other duellist in the series. Yoda is aggressive, and does keep people on the defensive more often than not, but no more than Qui-Gon kept Maul on the defensive. And in the end, Maul made good use of Ataru's inherent weakness.

And 150% of Vodo? What math class did you go to? Is a 33 year old man 150% of me? WTF? And where did Exar Kun and Vodo stalemate a few months before Vodo was killed? What were the particulars of this battle? Anyone?


And please. Sidious - from Lucas own point of view - is the ultimate Sith Lord, the most powerful Sith of them all. From the EU point of view this is BS but from the EU point of view the people are far more powerful than shown in the movies (e.g. Mace in Shatterpoint and the Clone War cartoon). So comparing movie characters to EU characters while using only things seen in the movies is unfair - and you know that.

Clone War cartoon is ridiculous; I'm sure a clone war Grievious could kill Yoda, okay? And since when was I using things only seen in the movies? I'm using Eu sources.


Wrong. Mace displayed his movement abilities best in his fight against Kar Vastor when he hits the guy more than 6 times in less than a second. Another display of that ability would be the clone war cartoon scene on Dantooine where he destroys the droids.

I'm gonna keep that clone wars cartoon reference at arm's length, but you may be right about the Shatterpoint reference. I don't remember every single detail 100% and I'm not about to reread the book and then post. I do have a few other things more pressing than this argument.


And Mace "Shatterpoint" ability is an instant ability. He simply looks at things and see the Shatterpoint. Where did you get the idea that it took him a decent length ?

a) He knew Depa's Shatterpoint before even haved reach her (making himself a hostage).
b) He knew Kar Vastors Shatterpoint instantly (that's why he acted like he did).
c) In the duel with Sidious he found Sidious Shatterpoint in less than a minute.

Again, you may be remembering the novel better than me (Or perhaps you just reread it...) in any case, Mace's Shatterpoints didn't aid him in direct combat. And if you're going to argue to me that Mace's Shatterpoints can defeat Kun, then apparently Mace's Shatterpoint can beat all, including Yoda, Dooku, Sidious, Ragnos, etc.

Oh, except it didn't beat Dooku or Yoda. So it's apparently not that infallible. Huh.


And he did fight Vastor without using his lightsaber and without using force powers first and put a decent fight up. Later it took Mace less than 5 seconds to disable Vastor and that was a point where Mace had put a lightsaber through his abdomen and was still injured from the previous battles.

Less than five seconds? No, I'm gonna have to reread that chapter again. That doesn't sound right. And in any case, considering that Vastor is an untrained Force sensitive, I would -hope- that Mace could take him out faster than that if he is to survive against Exar Kun of what has been called the Golden Age of the Sith.


It requires a constant force use to keep that stick able to deflect lightsaber attacks. So...he has to concentrate on that (if only a little bit).

Where does it say this? Nai, you need to prove up. Cite something. Show me a panel, anything. Not just "well... hey. He needs to concentrate."


Still the fact remains that he was "destroyed" by somebody he fought into a standstill a short time before. Explanation for this being what ? Kun developing supernatural force powers and developing into a god in months ?

So are you saying that Exar Kun couldn't have done... what he did?


Oh please Janus. On the same level you can say "Mace beat Sidious - it's done" or "Sidious beat Yoda - it's done". Since when do circumstances of a fight don't count here anymore ?

Since you're stretching it out to discredit Exar Kun and not concentrating on the jedi, whom you claim can defeat him. You're going over the Vodo fight trying to pick it apart. It was very straightforward- Kun destroyed his former master and one of the best lightsaber duellists of the order. That, I believe, might even be part of the narrative. I'll double check. Point being, why piss and moan over it? This isn't an ambiguous fight; it lasted shorter than AOTC Yoda versus Dooku.


I'm not seeking to undermine Kun I'm just thinking of the situation and sorry...I don't believe that Person A would suddenly be able to simply overpower Person B within seconds if Person B did put up a good fight to Person A only a short period of time before. That's out of any logic...

It happened. It was straightforward. I don't think that Anakin should have been clever enough nor Dooku foolish enough to let Anakin take the count's hands off, but it happened. It was within Anakin's capabilities apparently, and it's a done deal. Crying about it won't change a thing and it sure won't help resolve this battle.


That's like saying that Anakin would be able to destroy Dooku 2 months after their fight on Geonosis.


Is it? Did Exar Kun fight Vodo and was stalemated as a Sith lord possessing the amulet, and then came back a few short weeks later and beat him soundly? Or are you riding on this point as some kind of reason why Kun must be weaker than shit and your dream team can take him despite being vastly inferior themselves and a horrible, horrible team.

well Nai I noticed that this is what you said about Kun's force ritual to kill the massassi "That leaves the draining of the Massasi race. We know that Kun needed a ritual and the ruins on Yavin 4 to do that. It took him quite some time."

Now I want you to remember the circumstances of him doing that, he was being attacked by thousands of jedi and the entire republic military, he was having to hold them off with the force. Now I am unsure, but the only power I can think of that could do this would be force push, so he was able to force push thousands of jedi, and the entire republic military (ships and all), when they were not even on the planet, they were in the atmosphere. Now, you cannot convince me that this did not require power and concentration. However, even using that much power and concentration, he was able to drain the life from an entire face that spanned an entire planet. This would be like Sidious holding off every PT jedi (including Obi-Wan, Yoda, Anakin, Mace etc.) AND the entire republic military (every clone, starfighter and captial ships) at the same time killing off half of Courscant using the force.

No, what Kun did to the Massassi is quite possibly the most impressive use of the force that we have ever seen, even surpassing the blowing up of stars. Do not try to diminish it

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Now based on your earlier, unproven and unsound premise, you have concluded that Kun cannot defeat them possibly at all in saber combat and absolutely MUST use the Force. Next you'll be arguing Kun's Force mastery down to nothing, despite the fact that his ionized air particles (read: ghost 4,000 years after his death) could wipe its ass with Luke Skywalker.

I see I am way out of my league here in debate skill, but I am going to address this one little point. Exar defeating Luke isn't that impressive.

I personally think Luke to be quite powerful by this time. That should just add an extra layer to Exar's power, but it doesn't. Exar did NOT rip Luke from his body under his own power.

Exar was controlling Kyp. It was Kyp's raw force power that did the trick. By this time, Exar had to rest for 2 weeks before he could appear to a student or cause someother form of trouble for Luke.

Corran Horn states in "I, Jedi" that he believed that Exar had to rest for two weeks to do anything. This is WITH the power of the Massassi race at his disposal, not necessarily his own. When Kun killed Gantorious, he killed him with Gantorious' own power. He had taught Gantorious things, but when Gantorious fought back he used the power Gantorious had given him to kill him. Same thing happened with Luke, but Exar had more control over a much greater amount of power.

Corran Horn also reveals in his discussions with Luke that Kyp had a part in ripping Luke from his body. Kyp was what kept Exar from killing Luke by blocking Exar from using all of Kyp's power.

A spirit using a weaker persons power has been demonstrated before. In "The Splinter of the Minds Eye", Obi-wan doesn't guide Luke, he literally takes over Lukes body in the same way Exar did to Kyp and defeats Vader.

Notice, when Exar was defeated, this was after he had drained power from Kyp. Vodo had also gone 4000 years as a spirit and never gained any form of outside power/ Even Ragnos received power in his 5000 years. This can show that Vodo IS a difficult fight for Exar. I haven't seen anything to suggest that spirits lose power at different rates, so there is no reason for Vodo to have lost power faster than Exar. A lightsaber master could have easily defeated Luke's 12 students and Luke at one time. Those makes it seem like Vodo did over half the work. Remember that this is Vodo AFTER 4000 years without gaining any additional power and Exar AFTER draining power from Kyp.


As a recap, we can see that following things.

Exar didn't rip Luke from his body using his own power.
Kyp force potential did most of the work, Exar guided his power.
This power has been demonstrated before. In otherwords, its not a unique occurrence.
Vodo did much of the work without gaining any additional power since his death while Exar received a lot of power only a few weeks before.

This doesn't make Exar's ionized air particles seem so great to me.

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
No, what Kun did to the Massassi is quite possibly the most impressive use of the force that we have ever seen, even surpassing the blowing up of stars. Do not try to diminish it

He had the Massassi temples to amplify his power. That was their purpose. I also want to see a source on how many Jedi where there and how many ships, soliders, ect. were there.

Saying "Do not try to diminish it" make is sound like you think it is some holy event.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Some proof for this?

All lightsaber styles are based on some basical movements (form I) just being refined over and over again. Every fighting style is based on some basical movements. You have basical defence movements (against strikes placed on certain zones of you body) as well as you have basical offence movements (designed to hit certain zones of your opponents body).

You can't simply develop new techniques out of nothing and there is no infinete amount of possible movements. Just think about how many possible movements you can apply to cut somebodies head off (just an example):

- swing from the front side
- swing from the back side
- swing from the right side
- swing from the left side
- overhead swing changing direction to move in from one of the four sides mentioned

The basic movements still stay the same. Watch the fight Obi-Wan vs Anakin in ROTS for example - they're both using different styles but still using nearly similar movements with only a few differences and that "few" difference won't be enough to totally surprise an opponent. That even counts more for Jedi since they learn all the basic movements with form I (and everyone of them learned that form).



See above. They won't simply need to explore Kun's style in depth to avoid getting cut into pieces within seconds.



Again: See above. The number of movements is nearly limitless, yes, the "target zones" on the human body are not. That's the reason for most fighting styles / martial arts systems first teach their students to defend themselves properly before teaching attack movements.



Arguing Kun's force mastery down ? You're arguing it up. Kun never attacked Luke Skywalker on his own - it was Kyp Durron + Exar Kun and it's even said that Luke would have been able to withstand the attack of one of them alone. And Kun was strong enough to toast one of Luke's students on his own. So...I hope you don't want to tell me that JA Luke's force defence (being enough to make Kun not attack him on his own) is a match for those of Yoda, Mace or Dooku...



A poor excuse for a Sith Lord ? What Sith abilities have we seen that are usable in combat (pulling all thinks together) ?

- telekinesis (throwing stuff)
- force lightning (up to "force storm" from KotoR games)
- force drain
- life drain (up to "death field" from KotoR games)
- force choke

Now we have no idea how efficient life drain / force drain can be used by Kun in terms of melee combat (so using that fast). What we know is that force lightning is useless against experienced Jedi (block with lightsaber - Mace, deflect it - Dooku, absorb it - Yoda).

We know that Kun can use force choke against multiple opponents at once but we can't say if he can do that while moving / fighting (and even Luke's Padawans where able to survive that).

Leaves telekinesis (throwing stuff). Since I don't have any other measures here I will use the WotC d20 stats (I hate them but they are Lucas approved):

"Move object" skills:
Exar 14
Yoda 20
Mace 19
Dooku 11

(all outclassing NJO Luke having a 10 in this ability).

So...unless somebody gives me some proof that Kun would be able to overwhelm their force defences (Yoda's and Dooku's being close to Ragno's one according to the WotC game stats again) and force drain them or life drain them to death I have to assume that they would be able to survive a force battle with Kun.

Now we are back to lightsaber combat again and I doubt that Kun would be able to survive against Yoda, Dooku and Mace at once.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I see I am way out of my league here in debate skill, but I am going to address this one little point. Exar defeating Luke isn't that impressive.

When don't you adress one or two little points?


Exar was controlling Kyp. It was Kyp's raw force power that did the trick. By this time, Exar had to rest for 2 weeks before he could appear to a student or cause someother form of trouble for Luke.

After 4,000 years he could still do this. Sidious in his heyday couldn't possess an exceptional Force user, let alone beyond the grave, where he was virtually powerless. This actually speaks measures for Kun.


Corran Horn states in "I, Jedi" that he believed that Exar had to rest for two weeks to do anything. This is WITH the power of the Massassi race at his disposal, not necessarily his own.

Corran Horn is the expert, huh? Well, in any case this is an impressive event. The idea that Exar Kun could hijack bodies like he did of considerable Force users is impressive, even beyond the grave. And while no doubt the Massassi race's power helped him in some way or another in his undead statisis, we don't know exactly how much or to what degree at all, do we? Just as you want to know the number of ships and jedi in the atmosphere I want to know -from you- just how much the massassi powers boosted him. And don't give me some crap number system- you can call a rose a rhino but it's still a rose; assigning numbers doesn't alter nor help define the truth.


A spirit using a weaker persons power has been demonstrated before. In "The Splinter of the Minds Eye", Obi-wan doesn't guide Luke, he literally takes over Lukes body in the same way Exar did to Kyp and defeats Vader.

It's Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Luke also ogles Leia and uses a Kaiburr crystal, among other things. This is one of the worst EU examples by far. You'd be better off arguing to me the Clone Wars cartoon or the Crystal Star novel. And if you want to argue this point, show me where it says that Luke was unwilling to let Obi-Wan control him?


Notice, when Exar was defeated, this was after he had drained power from Kyp. Vodo had also gone 4000 years as a spirit and never gained any form of outside power/ Even Ragnos received power in his 5000 years. This can show that Vodo IS a difficult fight for Exar. I haven't seen anything to suggest that spirits lose power at different rates, so there is no reason for Vodo to have lost power faster than Exar. A lightsaber master could have easily defeated Luke's 12 students and Luke at one time. Those makes it seem like Vodo did over half the work. Remember that this is Vodo AFTER 4000 years without gaining any additional power and Exar AFTER draining power from Kyp.

You know, I could get into this, but I'd really really like to know one thing. Honestly: Was Vodo sane? I know Exar Kun went mad in his isolation. Was Vodo also deranged?

And while you're at it, we can get into the idea of how this apparently reflects his skills in real life. Since you're totally against the idea of spirit's powers declining, I'm hoping you can prove it better to us next time.


Exar didn't rip Luke from his body using his own power.

No, he used someone else's. You said youself, the guy resisted somewhat. For a dead guy thousands of years old and half mad, that's pretty impressive.


Kyp force potential did most of the work, Exar guided his power.

Well, if Kyp was strong enough to do what he did, he seems stronger than the Luke of this period, at least potentially. And Kun dominated him. Okay. Sure.


This power has been demonstrated before. In otherwords, its not a unique occurrence.

Yeah, and people have been shot with bullets before, too. But if one instance is a headshot from a half mile away with a scopeless rifle while another is a shotgun blast a pointblank range to a nonmoving target... it's a different deal there. I don't recall Obi-Wan taking over Luke's body against the boy's will, nor was Obi-Wan able to replicate anything using Luke's full potential. And remember, it's Splinter of the Mind's Eye. Makes Jedi Trial look like a masterpiece.


Vodo did much of the work without gaining any additional power since his death while Exar received a lot of power only a few weeks before.

So you're saying that Vodo must be amazing and a tough guy for Kun, despite being easily murdered by him? Yeah, okay. Sure.



This doesn't make Exar's ionized air particles seem so great to me.

Your opinion. Fine by me.

Janus and Glentract:

Kun didn't use Kyp's body. It was Kun's spirit on his own and Kyp on the dark side teaming up on Luke.

The only events where a force user really "used" the body of another one are:

- Obi-Wan using Luke (Splinter of the Minds Eye)
- Luke using Jacen (JA trilogy)
- Ragnos using Tavion (Jedi Academy)

All lightsaber styles are based on some basical movements (form I) just being refined over and over again. Every fighting style is based on some basical movements. You have basical defence movements (against strikes placed on certain zones of you body) as well as you have basical offence movements (designed to hit certain zones of your opponents body).

True, but saying that the PT jedi have reached a "limit" is a but ridiculous. That would be like saying that a modern day practitioner of any fighting style has reached a limit that an earlier one hasn't practiced. And let's be fair; a latter day swordsman would wipe their ass with any one of us.


You can't simply develop new techniques out of nothing and there is no infinete amount of possible movements. Just think about how many possible movements you can apply to cut somebodies head off (just an example):

- swing from the front side
- swing from the back side
- swing from the right side
- swing from the left side
- overhead swing changing direction to move in from one of the four sides mentioned


Yes, that is true. But you were saying that the PT group had reached the limit, implying that they had sufficient mastery to counter each and every possible combination of such attacks. To even possess such knowledge is considerable, and in the light you've put it, impossible.


The basic movements still stay the same. Watch the fight Obi-Wan vs Anakin in ROTS for example - they're both using different styles but still using nearly similar movements with only a few differences and that "few" difference won't be enough to totally surprise an opponent. That even counts more for Jedi since they learn all the basic movements with form I (and everyone of them learned that form).

I think you're ignoring a few things here. First, every thrown ball is the same, as is basically every thrown punch. But the variables involved in direction, force, forces and such effecting it, etc. make each and every one different. In some cases, it can be sufficient enough a difference to make the ball say, hard to catch, despite the catcher having good knowledge of how to catch or even a big glove to aid him. To simply say that it's all basic and no variation can ever be too radical to take on off guard is to spit in the face of reality. Obviously, Anakin did something that the experienced Dooku never expected, and Dooku is, as you are wont to say, near the "limit".

So saying that all fighting is basic and that the PT jedi are near this "limit" and thus stand a good chance against Kun is ridiculous.


See above. They won't simply need to explore Kun's style in depth to avoid getting cut into pieces within seconds.

And is this why the jedi masters accompanying Mace got slaughtered by the unorthodox Sidious? I mean, all moves are basic, and as jedi masters of the all mighty PT era, they should have been able to survive a few seconds knowing the basics of all things, Shii-Cho, right? I mean, the Shii-Cho heavy practitioner lasted a good three swipes. No, this doesn't follow.


Again: See above. The number of movements is nearly limitless, yes, the "target zones" on the human body are not. That's the reason for most fighting styles / martial arts systems first teach their students to defend themselves properly before teaching attack movements.

Targeting zones are the basics. Things beyond that are techniques and skills that evolve into separate forms. Different fighting styles evolve for different purposes. If you're trying to tell me that the PYT jedi know the basics and thus will last longer than Vodod did against Kun's carnage, you need to tell that to Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto and Saesee Tiin.


Arguing Kun's force mastery down ? You're arguing it up. Kun never attacked Luke Skywalker on his own - it was Kyp Durron + Exar Kun and it's even said that Luke would have been able to withstand the attack of one of them alone. And Kun was strong enough to toast one of Luke's students on his own. So...I hope you don't want to tell me that JA Luke's force defence (being enough to make Kun not attack him on his own) is a match for those of Yoda, Mace or Dooku...

I addressed this to Glentract.


A poor excuse for a Sith Lord ? What Sith abilities have we seen that are usable in combat (pulling all thinks together) ?

Oh, so he didn't use it, thus he must not have any control or knowledge of it, eh? On the same note, Sadow never used Force choke. Must be outside of his bag of tricks, huh?


- telekinesis (throwing stuff)
- force lightning (up to "force storm" from KotoR games)
- force drain
- life drain (up to "death field" from KotoR games)
- force choke


Nice list. What for?


Now we have no idea how efficient life drain / force drain can be used by Kun in terms of melee combat (so using that fast). What we know is that force lightning is useless against experienced Jedi (block with lightsaber - Mace, deflect it - Dooku, absorb it - Yoda).

More assumptions. First off, life drain isn't likely to be a part of this duel. If it was, Kun would have whipped it out against Vodo or Ulic, the latter of which he considered a threat.

Second, we know that Dooku and Sidious' Force lightning; assuming that Kun's lightning is the same level needs some backing. Considering Kun's powers are immense, this doesn't naturally seem to be the case.


We know that Kun can use force choke against multiple opponents at once but we can't say if he can do that while moving / fighting (and even Luke's Padawans where able to survive that).

Why does Force choke neccessarily need to be an issue?


Leaves telekinesis (throwing stuff). Since I don't have any other measures here I will use the WotC d20 stats (I hate them but they are Lucas approved):

"Move object" skills:
Exar 14
Yoda 20
Mace 19
Dooku 11

(all outclassing NJO Luke having a 10 in this ability).

RPG stats which aren't accurate enough to rely on. I'll pass.


So...unless somebody gives me some proof that Kun would be able to overwhelm their force defences (Yoda's and Dooku's being close to Ragno's one according to the WotC game stats again) and force drain them or life drain them to death I have to assume that they would be able to survive a force battle with Kun.

You're assuming that Kun can only do those things. It doesn't follow, Nai.


Now we are back to lightsaber combat again and I doubt that Kun would be able to survive against Yoda, Dooku and Mace at once.

And I beg to differ. Back to square one.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Greater Force powers, greater Force mastery, greater Force atunement. This spells good fighter to me. If it would be such that people could have overwhelming Force mastery, etc. and be virtual bitches in combat it would not make any logical sense at all. Yoda, whom you have argued to be one of the best swordsmen ever, has a greater Force mastery than any of his peers. Force mastery and fighting skills are apparently related on some level. Unless you'd like to argue this. Then we can all just hang up our hats and write off everyone with impressive Force powers (Sadow, Ragnos, Nadd, etc.) as being inferior duellists to Yoda and DOoku and Mace and Sidious based on your accessment. So please, enlighten me on how fighting capability is NOT related?

See...that is the point where we have different ideas about "force powers". Would Yoda be able to blow up stars if he had grown up in ancient times learning Sith magic for 900 years ? Would Mace be able to do so ? Would Dooku be ? Would Anakin ?

We know (for example) that Yoda has greater force powers than Dooku (greater power, greater attunement, greater mastery): Would Yoda be able to use Sith lightning ?
If Dooku's idea is right that a "dark side Yoda" would obliterate Sidious in the blink of an eye what would he be able to do ? I hope you get what I'm trying to say. You can't judge the possible abilities of people when they were never close to using all of their abilities.



Why Exar is weaker than you think he is ? You gave an example yourself: Exar did never blow up a star with his force powers. Ulic and Exar send people using Naga Sadow's ship (channeling force powers) to blow up Ossus (I think it was Aleema Keeto who did that). So even Sadow used Sith technology to multiply his force powers enough to blow up a star and this (as seen) could be done by people not being close to Kun or Ulic.



He can use aggressive movements if needed otherwise Anakin would have all his limbs in ROTS. It's not that he will just stand around and watch getting his fellows cut into pieces while doing nothing because noone attacks him.



He was trying to overwhelm Dooku's defence with unusual movements (jumping over Dooku's head and stuff like that). Is that effiecient ? Debateable...would strike 200 times into a defence of a master duellist would be "efficient" ?



We know that Yoda doesn't even need a lightsaber to avoid getting hit. Best they did is stop him from throwing in attacks on them - in fact that is the only thing they could do.




Of course the Clone War cartoon is ridiculous - but this is all Lucas approved. And if Lucas wants his PT Jedi look like badass fighters then they are. Why do you want to contradict Lucas personal oppinion here - you who always bashes people for contradicting Lucas personal philosophy about the force ("Grey Jedi" and stuff like that) ?



I've read through Shatterpoint again last week. It labels Kar Vastor as "lightning fa