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Ganthet vs Spectre

Alright, boys and toys. Unbeknowest to most in this vs forum, a raging debate has been forming in one particular vs thread. This debate is the above subject. It started because eleveninches started a 'Ganthet vs White Crown Phoenix' thread. Several opinions abounded, but one particular off-the-topic debate literally took over the thread. After several replies, the thread opener commented that, "Ganthet is more powerful than the Spectre" to which some replied, "Garbage!" That is how this started.

I have been the sole proponent for one side of this debate and now, since I have been unable to convince my opponents and I am honestly beginning to think they are partly ignoring my premises, I leave it to you other posters who may not have had a chance to weigh in on this topic with your own opinions. Thus, for your benefit, I have decided to repost every reply, rebuttal and whatnot directly pertaining to this debate in its entirety so that you may judge. It is basically Juntai and kevdude who believe 'Spectre > Ganthet' and I, OneDumbG0, who believes 'Ganthet > Spectre.'

Keep in mind, this is not the only forum to debate this topic. Right now, several other forums which I have googled are hotly debating this topic as well. The main points of reference are 'Green lantern: Rebirth' and 'Day of Vengeance.' So it is important for people to have read these. Please be patient with me as I upload every response individually and wait for my signal to begin a NEW round of debating. Thank you for your patience!

#1 Originally posted by eleveninches
ganthet is more powerful than the spectre, and is billions of years old, and the greatest guardian ever.
#2 Originally posted by kevdude
Ganthet more powerful then THE SPECTRE??? WHERE Has it ever been shown he is more powerful??? The Spectre could have destroyed Parallax if he wanted to, it did not bother him so he left. Ganthet was there and he couldn't do anything to Parallax, so much for ganthet being more powerful then The Spectre . White Crown Phoenix wins..
#3 Originally posted by King_Mungi
It was said in Green Lantern: Rebirth #3

Ganthet: "Kilowog is free from your influence. Even the power of the Spectre dwarfs the Guardians'."

Parallax: "You said the spectre was nothing compared to your power Guardian and Parallax still lives"

#4 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
1) Ganthet is more powerful than the Spectre. They say so, and nobody disputes it in the comics. First off, Spectre seperating Parallax and Hal was not a terribly great feat. Hell, 5 Green Lanterns did the same thing to seperate Parallax from Ganthet. Second, Hal did most of the work anyway. Lastly, just because Hal asked the Spectre to destroy Parallax doesn't mean, he would, could or should have.
#5 Originally posted by kevdude
Ganthet is not more powerful then the Spectre, there is no way he is more powerful then Gods Wrath. Parallax even states when he is ready to enter Ganthets body: "without jordan's soul, without the spirit of vengeance. I have no hands holding me in PLACE.. You said the Spectre was NOTHING compared to YOUR power Gaurdian . And Parallax still LIVES. In YOU." rit there tells anyone Parallax is again POKING FUN at Ganthet for thinking he is more powerful then The Spectre.

Oh and Hal asked Spectre to help him separate from Parallax, and if u look at the picture of The Spectre separating all 3 of them it SHOWS The Spectre doing MOST OF THE WORK not Hal. Ganthet had the help of 5 of the Greatest GLs EVER getting him separated from Parallax. after he was separated he looked like he almost dead. yes Ganthet is powerful but not as powerful as the Spectre.......... Ganthet more powerful then Spectre is like saying he's as powerful as Archangel Michael and everyone knows he will never be that powerful.

#6 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I can't understand how you would construe that as poking fun. The reason for his final comment is to show the reader and everybody around them, that if Parallax leeches onto Ganthet, he'd be more dangerous and more powerful than he was when he leeched himself onto Hal and the Spectre. Its called 'raising the stakes.'

It's what authors usually do when they lead up to their climax. I doubt Geoff Johns purposely 'lowered the stakes' for the final act. His and the artist's character designs even make this 'Ganthet version' of Parallax more monstrous and fearsome than the 'Hal and Spectre version' of Parallax. If you're assuming that I would believe that, now you're just plain insulting me.
#7 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You my friend, need to read Rebirth more carefully. You're miscontruing Parallax's statements with your preconceptions again. But if you want Parallax's statements to be truth, here's one humdinger for you. Earlier in the series Parallax is mocking Hal Jordan and the Spectre comparing the two within their trinity as mere hosts. Parallax > Spectre (serves as host for Parallax) > Hal Jordan (serves as host for Spectre). So what about that? In your version of how the story works out, Parallax is literally contradicting himself.

Secondly, Hal did most of the work there buddy. He remembered fear and fought against it. That was Parallax's weakness. And he weakened Parallax's leech-hold onto him so much, that the writer and artist rendered Hal Jordan as literally ripping Parallax apart with his own soul. After that, Spectre provided the final flash of power to help him finish the job. If you don't believe that, then just read what Spectre says to Hal Jordan halfway through the series! After all, Spectre says HIMSELF, he had been trying to burn the infection out by grafting his soul onto Jordan's and yet, he couldn't do it. The ENTIRE time they were grafted, Spectre didn't accomplish anything and Parallax just gained strength while inside Jordan. This escalation of power and danger only turned itself around because Jordan rose up, discovered the truth and fought it himself. In the end, for you to win your argument, it is necessary to assume that Ganthet and Parallax were lying when Ganthet said his power dwarfed the Spectre's. How in the hell is that a rational assumption? I'm sorry to point it out, but only your incorrect preconceptions are leading you to assume this.

#8 Originally posted by kevdude
im not insulting u at all onebumbgo we are just talking, sorry if i offended u in any way. i have read rebirth many times and again just got done reading most of it.

about Spectre/Parallax though, it does not make sense for Parallax to be more powerful then Spectre. they indeed lowered the stakes sorta in power wise but replaced it with adding more drama making Ganthet be the 1 that was infested with Parallax then Hal/Spectre. The GL's are then fighting to save Ganthet from Parallax (kinda more interesting then Parallax trying to infest The Spectre when everyone knows or should know he is no match for The Spectre).

About the host part, while Parallax is being way to over confident/contradicting in himself he says they are nothing but host's to him ( we know otherwise).. About Spectre trying to burn it up himself, it seems he was trying to get rid of Parallax for Hal by himself but the main reason he couldn't do it was because he needed help from Hal too help him, that is the hole reason in #3 while Hal/Spectre/Parallax are all talking with each other, Spectre says to Hal "You must see the truth, Hal Jordan. You must help me Fight it. The Truth about Parallax, the truth about Yourself". Once Hal was not afraid and fought against it The Spectre then stepped in and finished what Hal started. The only chance Parallax had at hurting Spectre was while he was connected with Hal, after they all was no longer connected Parallax didn't even look at The Spectre.

While the JLA and 3 GL members plus Ganthet was fighting the Parallax/Hal/Spectre they was not harming him at all. If Ganthet infected with Parallax was more powerful then Hal/Spectre w/Parallax then they would have needed more help from the JLA not just 5 GL members. Guy Guardian was amazed that The Spectre was even there and was surprised they all got ditched by him sorta saying to them "idc what happens to all of you, I have to get back to heaven God is calling me"

#9 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You ain't offending me. But, Spectre did not do most of the work. Hal was half way rid of Parallax and at that point, he asks for help. Spectre couldn't get rid of Parallax himself and since we seem to be in agreement on at least that, how can you give him more credit than Hal?

Second, the reason why the JLA, Titans, JSA and 3 Lanterns couldn't hurt Parallax-infected Spectre/Hal wasn't because he was more powerful at that time. It was because they didn't know HOW to fight it. Thats why a mere 5 Lanterns were able to take down P-infected Ganthet. They understood it and they used their rings as a conduit to trap Parallax.

For the theory of Spectre > Ganthet, you MUST assume these premises:
1) Ganthet is lying OR doesn't know what he's talking about.
2) Parallax is contradicting himself just so he can mock Ganthet.
3) The drama placed on Ganthet's possession derives from a love of the character rather than an emphasis on more danger.
4) The climax was written so that it was at its peak danger during issue #4 and lowered the stakes by #5-6.
5) The writer's and artist's designs were misleading.

For Ganthet > Spectre, those same premises are presented this way:
1) Ganthet is not lying AND knows what he's talking about.
2) Parallax never contradicts himself.
3) The drama from Ganthet's possession derives from a heightened crisis due to an increase in power.
4) The climax was written in #5 and #6 right before the resolution.
5) The writer's designs and artist's renditions were correct in making infected Ganthet much more massive and monstrous and intimidating.

Do you see where I'm getting at and why I'm getting there? Its the idea of Okham's razor. If its easier to explain it in one way, the reason is because that is the way it probably is. You're theory runs something like; Ganthet is an idiot, Parallax goes around making fun of people, the writer doesn't know basic story-telling and the depictions are flawed.

#10 Originally posted by Juntai
In the DC Legends 4 Part miniseries that kicked off his run as the Spectre, he stated and I'll quote...word by word the power he held as Paralax was "as a flickering candle next to an exploding sun" in comparison to The Spectre, and that was long before he unlocked The Spectre's full potential in his series.

Like I said, Ganthet is in the very highest tier in the powerful cosmics/godlikenesses, but if one of the Aspect Forces decides you need to die.. you die.. without question. This would never happen in the comic, the supreme being wouldn't allow it... but in the idea of VERSUS threads, that is what happens.
#11 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Funny then, how Spectre couldn't do a damn thing against Parallax in the more recent Green Lantern: Rebirth series. While I will believe every word you say, then the most logical thing to assume, is they apparently retconned it. Rebirth is more recent. They probably did it in anticipation of Day of Vengeance and Infinite Crisis. So in the idea of VERSUS threads, more recent material is regarded as more reliable as long as it doesn't involve PIS or CIS.

And I don't wanna hear comments on how Rebirth and Day of Vengeance are PIS or CIS, because these series,... like OMAC Project and Identity Crisis are setting stones for the damn revamp of DC comics. Geoff Johns, who wrote Rebirth is one of three authors who steered Infinite Crisis to where it is now and he's pretty much writing the actual series. So take those DC Legends miniseries and toss em,... apparently, they don't apply anymore.

#12 Originally posted by Juntai
But Hal's series as Spectre is what led us to this point, and you'd know that if you'd read them... God/The Logoz/Micheal.. everyone repeatedly told him the new age was coming from the very beginning in his run, and slowly led us to now. So much for throwing it out the window huh? The things Hal did in there, Ganthet would never be able to touch. Saying that Ganthet is more powerful than The Spectre is saying God is fallible, because The Spectre is only limited if DC's God wills it so, since it is a piece of the Almighty itself.
#13 Originally posted by Juntai
I am agreeing, Aspects/Forces of the Almighty are only subject to it's will. No being outside of this can cause it's defeat. It one of them loses, it had a purpose to do so, but in the respect of a VERSUS thread, I'm lead to assume that this is not the way it is. And although Ganthet is in the very highest teir, he is not above the almighty in any of it's forms, be it Pheonix, Spectre or Godboy.
#14 Originally posted by Juntai
And just for a nail in the coffin... in the events where Hal BECAME the Spectre, Azreal had the Spectre Force power, and one of the first things he did after freezing hell and Neron, and erupting into the physical plane.. was to shut off Ganthet, Highfather, Shazam, and the rest of the quintessences' powers, and warned them not to interfere.

#15 Originally posted by kevdude
Just because Ganthet or other characters say things that are wrong does not mean they are lying or stupid, its just the writers are showing everyone they can be wrong sometimes.....Characters are allowed to have there own humor and it shows they are actual beings not just robots.

In #4 where the part The Spectre helps Hal separate from Parallax, it shows Spectre finishing the job Hal started and Hal not helping at all just falling away.

I don't really think of it as lowering the stakes, Ganthet was and is a very powerful being, in some ways it could be said they raised the stakes because they could have lost Ganthet to Parallax forever. Batman also says in the #1 that if Hal/Parallax get control of Spectre they will be close to unstoppable.

Hal knew The Spectre could destroy Parallax by himself, but its a GL book and how would everyone feel if Spectre took out Parallax while they have all of the GL and some members of JSA/JLA there to do it.. They made The Spectre leave because he wasn't needed no more, they also wanted to show all 5 of those GL's working together and getting rid of Parallax there own way.... Ganthet cannot be more powerful or as powerful as The Spectre, The Spectre gets his power from God/The Presence, Ganthet does not get his power from The Presence.
#16 Originally posted by Juntai
The Spectre is not a merely a creation of God/The Presence, if you've ever read them, he is actually a piece of God itself. Spectre is the old testament God, and is also the face of God in different forms to nearly all races across the multiverse.

#17 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Very simple explanation then. God willed it so that Spectre is no longer as powerful as he used to be. In Day of Vengeance, the Shadowpact and Captain Marvel were about to kill him by focusing the magic of the few remaining sorcerers and magicians (few being relative in light of the fact that Spectre destroyed a lot of magic and sorcerers and cut people off from their power streams beforehand). It's not holding up anymore. If it doesn't hold up anymore, you can't cling to it. You don't bring up how Iceman sucks because he can only make snowballs because it just isn't true anymore. Just how weak do you think Ganthet wielding the power of the guardians is? Parallax wielding the power of the guardians remade the entire damn universe. I never saw Spectre do this.

This argument of Spectre can't be weaker because he's an aspect of God is ridiculous. They aren't the same thing. This is a fallacious assumption and you're missing premises. All you have to do, is insert a premise and see if this holds up. One I can think of is this. Spectre can't do anything wrong because he's an aspect of God. Well what the hell is happening now in Day of Vengeance? Spectre can't be weakened or threatened with destruction because he's an aspect of God. Spectre got spanked and says himself that they nearly destroyed him. You're argument inevitably leads to this, Spectre is the most powerful being because he's an aspect of God. And yet, that statement in itself is flawed because you exclude God. If you understand the fallacy, then you realize there are beings stronger than the Spectre. Everything in Rebirth and Day of Vengeance points to this fact. If it contradicts earlier material, scratch it up to God's will if it makes you happy.
#18 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
And just FYI, I was hella surprised to find out Spectre was weaker also. I always thought he was the most powerful also. But if Geoff Johns and the rest of the DC crew are using him in this fashion, I'm not going to stick to my crumbling preconceptions in the face of new evidence that is clearly not PIS. That's the plain bottom line. Things change.

And to keep the assumption that Spectre is more powerful, you basically have to assume the 5 things that I listed up there or explain them away somehow. The fact that they are diffucult to explain away should point out to you, especially in light of Day of Vengeance that it makes more sense that Spectre isn't as powerful as you think. Is it that hard to let go?

#19 Originally posted by Juntai
Also the Shadowpact was tapping into several pantheons, dead gods, the heros, even individuals.. it was like the universe was fighting back at him. Your statement is irrelivent when its the universe vs Spectre.
#20 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Incorrect because it is illogical. He destroyed many sources of magic first off and your argument is fatally flawed anyway. Why? Because if Spectre is an aspect of God and thus unstoppable as you say, how can he be stopped by God's lesser creations, no matter how many there are? Are the beings of the universe (and equating a multitude of magic beings to the universe is ridiculous in itself) coming together to fight, greater than God? Go ahead and try to explain it away, God made a mistake, God wasn't paying attention... but it's just damn easier to realize the illogical nature of it and just turn around and accept it. Spectre is not as powerful as you guys think anymore. If you assume this as fact, then it is very easy to see why Rebirth was presented like that. Its very easy to see why Shadowpact has a chance against somebody like the Spectre. In fact, it makes sense so much, I don't have to resort to disregarding or explaining things away like plot, character dialogue, artistry, storytelling and all that jazz.

#21 Originally posted by kevdude
The Spectre was fighting thousands upon tens of thousands of magic users in that fight anyone else would have been killed if that was them, and yes i do believe Ganthet woulda been beat by Captain Marvel if it was him. Also Parallax did not remake the universe he was using weaknesses left over from the Crisis and Anti-Monitor to rebuild a new universe manipulating everything. The Spectre has never remade the entire universe???? have u read Zero Hour???? at the end The Spectre made the new DCU pumping more and more power into Damage so he couldn't control it creating the new Big Bang.

I don't really agree with juntai about The Spectre being God, he is a fallen angel transformed by The Almighty to work for him, he was given The Spectre Force by God so he could go around bringing Divine Vengeance upon anyone who is evil. The Spectre can make mistakes and when he does he usually ends up losing because that is not how God wants things... The Spectres power was powered down by The Voice. Even though The Spectre is still the most powerful being in the DCU that we usually see.
#22 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
>.> I thought I read the ending. Guess I have to go read it again. Regardless, Zero Hour was a mess and DC stayed as far away as possible from it and its 'supposed' ramifications. You say he's powered down, but if he's still the most powerful being the DC Universe, he ain't really powered down? I'll admit, I know some stuff about Spectre, for instance his humble origins and first appearance and several of his feats. But when I read Rebirth right now and Day of Vengeance, Spectre just ain't the same Spectre anymore. A lot of things changed after Identity Crisis that if held under past continuity and scrutiny don't hold up. One example is Maxwell Lord. The guy turned into a friggin cyborg post-Crisis after having his powers go all loony and the writers basically got together and said,"You think a lot of people are going to remember that?" "No." "Ok forget it, instead of explaining it, lets just ignore it."

http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=40070

Stuff changes. Apparently Phoenix is God in MU. You just roll with the BS after a while if the story reads good. I will make a bonfire of the horsepoo that is X-Men: The End, but Rebirth was ok and I'm thoroughly enjoying Day of Vengeance. It wouldn't nearly be as good if Spectre was the strongest being in the universe. He could have just destroyed Parallax outright and if Geoff Johns let him do that, there's no way Rebirth could have worked. No way does Day of Vengeance work either. Captain Marvel should have just been blinked out of existence, or cut off from Shazam's power. Why would Spectre need to resort to fisticuffs? You guys are arguing with the wrong person, I didn't create the inconsistency, I just read it and roll with it. Go stick a burning cross on Geoff John's lawn. I'm just very surprised even given all of this and my careful premises, you guys still don't roll with it, but to each his own!

#23 Originally posted by kevdude
Captian Marvel was getting murdered when he was fighting Spectre by himself, Spectre didn't even know he(CM) was going to have help (thousands helping him that is). After he was getting help from them he was doing pretty good, but still CM was worn down from controlling powers he was never meant to hold... The Spectre couldn't cut off his power after he was already powered up, if he knew before hand it was going to happen he could have stopped it.

Before the fight with powered up CM, Spectre was already fighting other powerful beings, he was worn down like anyone else would be, hes been fighting constantly in almost every book of Day of Vengeance. There is no inconsistency, just read Rebirth another 10 times and ull get it.
#24 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Alright, there is no way I'm going to get through to you guys. So this is my last post and I'll give you the chance to get through to me instead. You guys decide what to do with it. One of you folks commented on how Spectre was so powerful he "shut off Ganthet, Shazam and Highfather from interfering with him." Well... why didn't he just shut off Captain Marvel or shut off the connection to the power of Shazam in Day of Vengeance? Oh, right... its because he doesn't feel like it, just like he didn't feel like being rid of Parallax. More excuses. My views and logic need no excuses. This is my main problem with looking at Rebirth and Day of Vengeance "your way." Too many inconsistencies and excuses. Therefore, if you counter these points logically, and they make sense with each other, without lame excuses like above, maybe I'll consider actually believing you guys.
Thus, assuming Spectre is the strongest being in the universe, stronger than Ganthet who wielded the power of the Guardians:

1) Why did Spectre say he couldn't get rid of Parallax?
2) He did it before, so why didn't Spectre forego having to 'cook the magic out' of Cap Marvel and just shut off his connection or for that matter, shut off Shazam?
3) Why did the Spectre almost die just by the combined might of a multitude of magical beings?
4) Why did Geoff Johns make P-infected Ganthet look more threatening than P-infected Spectre/Jordan and used the former as the climax?
5) If we assume he's not lying or isn't stupid, why didn't Ganthet understand he was less powerful than the Spectre?
6) Why did Parallax contradict himself?

So far, I think my explanation to all these problems are logical, right? And they don't contradict each other and they are much easier to swallow... well except for the people who apparently refuse to believe DC, :gasps: changes things! Thusly, I challenge you, if you can explain the above coherently, without contradicting your assumption that Spectre is the most powerful being, I will start to see why you assume your views. Have fun.

#25 Originally posted by kevdude
all ur questions have been answered already... About him shutting off Shazam/Highfather/Ganthets powers and not shutting off CM powers when he was getting help, The Spectre did not KNOW that was going to happen, if he did know he would have stopped it before it actually happened ( just like how he was stopping the young girl from taking his powers away from him again ). CM was not just powered by Shazam and a few others, he was powered by all of the magical beings powered on Earth trying to stop Spectre, its kinda of hard even for The Spectre to stop the power that CM was getting because 1. he was fighting a powerful being as powerful as him. and 2. CM was being protected probably by magic so The Spectre couldn't just take it all away from him.. He would have to fight with him and wait until 1. Spectre won and out lasted CM who was being powered by thousands of other beings or 2. lose the fight and be destroyed and probably taking CM down with him.

1. The Spectre never said he couldn't destroy Parallax, he only said he was trying to separate Hal's soul from Parallax then cast judgement on it for all the evil it has done in Gods Universe... when it finally happened that Parallax from freed from Hal's soul, The Spectre was told by Hal to destroy Parallax, The Spectre then told him he was not his ring and he had interfered enough, God was calling him home, and The Spectre had to leave because it was more important for him to serve God then to serve his own will (destroying Parallax).

2. Answered already on top .

3. Hes been fighting very powerful magical beings almost no-stop, he fought CM when he was connect with tens of thousands of magical beings, CM had magic all around him protecting him and helping him in his effort to fight The Spectre. Did u even notice The Shadowpact was complaining that they felt like they felt like crap and they wasn't even the ones physicaly fighting him???

4. Probably because Parallax was getting afraid he was going to lose (they was actually stopping him from putting fear into them so they could fight him). So he did what any villain would do and that is intimidate his rivals, he grew so big to try to make them fear him so he could win, this did not work they all worked together as a team and beat him.

5. Ganthet isn't stupid and i don't believe he was meaning to lie, he can be wrong though, anyone can be wrong even him. Parallax even said right before he infected Ganthet something about like "if you Ganthet are so powerful and more powerful then The Spectre then how am i here now and u can't get rid of me??"

6. When did Parallax contradict himself??? do u mean when he told The Spectre and Hal they was nothing but hosts to him??? if u mean that then, he was being WAY to confident in himself that he forced them to be mute and they wouldn't be a problem anymore..

The Spectre has talked to The Presence, The Word(The Logos), Archangel Michael and others in Heaven, Ganthet i don't believe has even the power to get to The Silver City so how is he going to be more powerful then The Spectre??? Well i hope you understand where we are coming from about him being more powerful then Ganthet if not then maybe well get to see them both fight one on one and see who wins then, but i still say The Spectre is more powerful.

#26 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You guys are averting my lines of premises. So now I'll be more clear.

1) Why didn't Spectre seperate Parallax and Hal earlier?
2) Spectre was brawling with Capt. Marvel himself before the Shadowpact came in, why didn't he just shut off the source from Shazam at that time?
3) Why can a gathering of forces from magic users beat the almighty Spectre, the will of God (the God who is the source of everything)?
4) Why did Geoff Johns make P-infected Ganthet look more threatening than P-infected Spectre/Jordan and used the former as the climax?
5) Why did Ganthet not know he was less powerful than the Spectre?
6) Why did Parallax refer to Spectre and Jordan as mere hosts during their trinity conversation, and also repeat Ganthet's utterances that Ganthet > Spectre right before he infected him?

So far, the answers I've gotten have been: to 1) He didn't feel like it because... God works in mysterious ways 2) He could have shut off his power source, he just decided not to because... God works in mysterious ways... 3) They weren't really beating him, he was just bluffing like Parallax,... oh wait... wait... nvm... you didn't say that... umm... creations can beat that which comes from the Creator because... God works in mysterious ways... 4) It was just to make himself look more threatening,... but he really wasn't, he was just bluffing, because... the writer works in mysterious ways... 5) You can't expect Ganthet to know something like that, just because you're part of the Quintessence you can't be expected to know things like that,... maybe he was bluffing too? Or maybe he works in mysterious ways... 6) Parallax was bluffing to himself the first time... and then bluffing to Ganthet... and the image of him ripping Hal and Spectre apart like shedded skins was part of his image faking too... just to himself... cause nobody was around... cuz... he works in mysterious ways...

I thought I was reading science fiction,... not a mystery novel. Wait... I'm just bluffing... you see... I, too, work in mysterious ways...

#27 Originally posted by Juntai
He could have done it to Shazam, he did it to Black Adam in a Day of Vengeance Tie In.. Just snapped his fingers and the power went off and Black Adam almost died smashing into the ground but was saved by Atom Smasher. The Spectre hasn't almost died yet, and if you've been reading all of the tie ins, Spectre is all across the Universe squashing many of it's most powerful AT THE SAME TIME. We also need to factor in that Spectre is NOT EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE EXISTING ON THE MORTAL PLANE WITHOUT A HOST PER THE WORD OF GOD. Where was Ganthet during Zero Hour? Right, erased with everything else. Where was Spectre? The everpresent Spectre even existed in nothingness, making Hal use all his energy up so he could be defeated, the same thing he did to the Anti-Monitor. If Ganthet was more powerful, why couldn't he override Spectre turning off his powers? Why doesnt or hasnt Spectre snapped his fingers and defeated his opposition? Good storytelling.. or maybe "God works in mysterious ways", either way, Ganthet is of the highest teir in DC for sure, but Spectre is only limited by one will-- The Presence, and one and only one thing can defeat him outside of that, the weapon that pierced the holy veil, The Spear of Destiny.
#28 Originally posted by Juntai
How does Wolverine slice up half the people does? How does Batman take blows from bloodlusted Superman? It's called making a story.. but fact is, it's been proven that he CAN cut Shazam the wizards power granted to his heralds useless, as he turned off Black Adam's in Day of Vengeance tie ins, and when Azmodel turned all of the quintessence's power off when he was Spectre.

#29 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
If you can get past the sarcasm in my above post, you see I address each of kevdude's explanations using the logic of the "Spectre > Ganthet" supporters and it doesn't really convince me at all. So now, I'll address some of Juntai's problems with my theories:

1) "Why didn't Ganthet override Spectre by turning off his powers?" Because he was facing Parallax and not Spectre. You may counter, "why couldn't he shut Spectre off inside of Parallax and relieve Parallax of the Spectre's power?" Maybe because Parallax wouldn't let him or Ganthet couldn't penetrate Parallax? You see, in my scheme of things, Ganthet isn't more powerful than HalSpectrellax, especially not with the immense fear he's causing worldwide. (Yes worldwide, Hal mentions that all the heroes and even normal citizens are going nuts with fear at the end of #5 and remember, fear powers Parallax)

2) "Where was Ganthet during Zero Hour? Right, erased with everything else. Where was Spectre? The everpresent Spectre even existed in nothingness, making Hal use all his energy up so he could be defeated." Yes, he was erased, he doesn't have the power of the Guardian's... cuz Hal/Parallax at that time stole them completely, remember Emerald Twilight? You say Spectre exists in nothing. He's more powerful than the power of the Guardians! Well... umm... you said yourself Hal is there too. Why is he there? Hal/Parallax back then wielded the power of the Guardian's. You said Spectre had to make Hal burn himself out... what's he burning out that is such a threat? The power of the Guardians. Well, do you see? The power of the Guardian's dwarf's even the Spectre's. After Hal/Parallax had relinquished the Guardian's power, before the reappearance of the new Guardian's,......... "Who solely wielded the power of the Guardians?"

<Please insert answer here> Check and mate.

Edit: I still can't believe you're clinging to the writer just decided not to have Spectre do all things he could have for story's sake. Fine, believe that. That decision, EVEN IF TRUE doesn't explain why Ganthet said the things he did and why Parallax said the things he did and why Parallax was even presented that way in the story. Why can't you just believe, THAT's the way the writers wanted you to see it?!

#30 Originally posted by kevdude
onebumbgo i gave u the answers myself , spent 10 mins putting it together o well , read rebirth another 10 times to understand it all, it takes awhile for everything to sink in, took me awhile too

#31 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I read your answers clearly and addressed them. But instead of addressing them in a sarcastic manner, I will address them purely analytically.
Your answer to #1 does not explain why Spectre didn't just seperate Parallax from Jordan. It explains WHAT happened. It does not give reason as to WHY Spectre did not seperate Parallax from Jordan.

Your answer to #2 completely bypasses my premise. You start answering by saying, "Spectre didn't expect the magicians of the world to start feeding power into Capt. Marvel." That isn't what I asked, I asked why Spectre didn't just shut off his Shazam power stream at the very beginning before Shadowpact came in.

Your answer to #3, while logical,... does not give support to 'Spectre > Ganthet w/ Guardian's power.' I thought you were going to say that Spectre was much too powerful, even for combined might of magicians. But you were smart and didn't fall into this trap. But if anything, it gives support to my assertion that Spectre isn't as powerful as you claim. The guy can be beaten and destroyed. The Guardian's power has always existed. It's never been destroyed, only subverted.

Your answer to #4 is weak. If all that presentation and writer/artist design was all just "intimidation tactics by Ganthellax," where's the proof within the story? Proof like, Parallax having an internal conversation saying, "I'll need to scare them." Or Jordan or Ganthet saying at the end, "He was just bluffing. Good job not being intimidated." There's nothing like this. You have to inject this hidden intention yourself, and that is not very reasonable to do considering the proof against it. The proof against it is; that Ganthet said he was more powerful, Parallax confirmed this, therefore he is more powerful and that is why Ganthellax looks more powerful.

Your answer to #5 subverts my premise again. You answer: a) "Ganthet can be wrong." b) "If Ganthet > Spectre, why didn't Ganthet destroy Parallax before being infected?" First off, with respect to a), there is no direct reference or proof in the story that showed Ganthet to be wrong. He didn't say, "I was wrong." Spectre didn't say, "You were wrong." BUT, Parallax confirmed Ganthet's statement twice! Specthallax said, "The Spectre is nothing but a host to me as you (Hal) are to him (Spectre)." and when he repeated to Ganthet, "You say Spectre is nothing to you? Then Parallax lives. In you!" That last comment more reasonably reads to me, that Parallax is confirming what Ganthet said, and dramatically states he is gonna raise the stakes by taking over a being more powerful than the Spectre!

As per the second part of your response b);... Ganthet couldn't destroy Parallax. That is plain to see. But just by being stronger than Spectre doesn't automatically mean he can destroy Parallax. And so, conversely, just by not being able to destroy Parallax, doesn't mean Ganthet is weaker than Spectre. You forget, NOBODY can destroy Parallax. He is a manifestation of sentient fear throughout the universe. The only thing anybody ever did to Parallax is imprison him. The GL's accomplished this because they had the rings as a conduit to send Parallax back into the Power Battery and fought him by embracing their worst fear and conquering it within themselves.

Your answer to #6 shows some confusion to my question. You clearly ask, "When did Parallax contradict himself? Understand, I DON'T think he contradicted himself. But you, with your premise that 'Parallax < Spectre' do believe that. You said it yourself, Parallax is mocking Ganthet's words. He doesn't really believe that the two of them are stronger than Spectre. But if Parallax understands that, why would he refer to Spectre as a mere host in their trinity conversation? Why did the artist render Parallax's return in #3 as ripping Spectre and Jordan as mere husks? That is the contradiction. But it is only a contradiction because of the way you think, not the way I think. Your last bit at the end of your answer was that "He was being overconfident or trying to bluff them." Come on... that is the same kind of weak answer to #4. The only one Parallax was overconfident about was Hal. Nothing in the story points to Parallax ever underestimating the Spectre or intentionally bluffing because of desperation. In fact, there is evidence in the form of actual conversation against this which I just cited above.

Now, if you still disagree with this, that is just too bad. Like I said, I gave you the oppurtunity to convince me. The weak answers above do not convince me. If you want me to take one last shot at convincing you, I'll do it by contrasting how everything in Rebirth and Day of Vengeance makes much more sense if "Ganthet > Spectre." and literally layer that analysis on top of yours and show which one is stronger. Not once, have you shown any actual words, conversation, admission of mistakes within those pages that are in direct contradiction to my premises. Again, your view is colored going into the books. So was mine! But act like you don't know anything and take it at its face value! Don't inject hidden intentions into Parallax, Ganthet or Spectre if there's no evidence for them. In fact, there's evidence against these 'hidden intentions.'

Edit: Can you at least admit, there aren't any glaring holes or inconsistencies in my responses to you? And can you at least admit, that my version of what happened in Rebirth and Day of Vengeance makes sense and has no glaring holes or inconsistencies?

#32 Originally posted by kevdude
I answered #2 on the first paragrapgh. The Spectre was shocked to see how much power/magic Captian Marvel had all around him protecting him..... . why he didn't shut off his power?? my guess he didn't feel the need or threated from Captian Marvel to do it, he just wanted to wear him down and force him to use all his magic up so he wouldn't be a problem later..... In there 2nd fight Captian Marvel was throwing punchs at Spectre and he just stood there telling him he wouldn't allow him to deter him from what he wanted to do there no longer and said "Shazam" turning CM back into Billy, then proceeding to Shazam and killing him. I agree with both of you in some ways but The Spectre is still more powerful then Ganthet. He can be destroyed just like any other being, its just he can take alot more then almost anyone else can. In your ranking Ganthet is almost as powerful as Archangel Michael or The Word which he is not. Do u think Ganthet could ever begin to fight Michael???? he would get killed very easy if he even dared lay a hand on Michael. read rebirth and dov 10 times and LOOK at the pictures they are as big as part of the comic book as the words. If ur still not sure then well have to wait and maybe well see Spectre and Ganthet fight in Infinite Crisis then see who wins.

#33 Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Look at the pictures?! Look at the pictures?!!? That's what I've been asking you to do the whole time! During Parallax's trinity conversation Spectre and Hal are both writhing in pain! Parallax's return in #3 involves him casting aside Spectre and Hal like they were husks of skin! Gathellax is ginormously HUGE compared to Specthallax! You want ME to look at the pictures? Why don't you look at the damn words! Look at what they say, for goodness sake! Look, I'm not saying your view is completely ridiculous, we're not the only ones debating this on the internet. But if you take a Google search, you'll see that most people agree that Rebirth and Day of Vengeance are pretty clear cut, and most people have a problem with that as an inconsistency with the past, not because they believe Geoff Johns painted Parallax as a mocking, bluffing character and Ganthet as being oblivious to the truth. I'm going to post this argument in the forums and let's have some other people weigh in. Because the only thing you reply in this last post of yours is some explanation that BEFORE Shadowpact came in, Spectre didn't cut off Shazam's power source in the beginning of their first fight, simply because he didn't feel like it. He sure felt like dealing with Madame Xanadu's power by bypassing it and taking her eyes.

Alright now. I am done. Please read through carefully and discuss as well. I think just keeping the debate between 3 people has not been very productive. What do you guys in KMC forums think? Please post now and thank you for your patience! Here's the link to the original thread in case you think I may have done some underhanded editing and cutting:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=368278

one theyve probably already read everything lol. but on most other forums i go to The Spectre is always put above Ganthet.

Other forums I saw, everyone pretty much agreed that Ganthet > Spectre because of Rebirth. Any objections were purely based on the fact that they had thought Spectre > Ganthet before they read Rebirth and this took them by surprise. Trust me, you and Juntai are the only ones I have seen, who are arguing that Rebirth cannot be read this way. that the words, picture and storyline mean something else.

Here's one of em:

http://www.sketchyorigins.com/comics/showthread.php?t=8090&page=4

Dr. Zapato and Khastriya was telling Fizerani that they got it wrong when they said that onebumb, saying they ****ed up the grammar in how they said it "Even the power of the Spectre dwarfs the Guardians'', they are telling him its meaning The Spectre is more powerful then the Guardians. BUT in reality that saying how they said it in Rebirth is correct, it means The Spectre is more powerful then the Guardians, it came out of Ganthets own mouth him saying The Spectre is more powerful. I just asked 2 other ppl that i live with and they both agree with the grammar how its being used that The Spectre is above Ganthet(guardians). its just that its throwing ppl off and they think it means The Spectre isn't as powerful as the guardians which he is even more powerful then them.

If Ganthet himself states that the power of the Spectre dwarfs his own then whats there to debate about?

Spectre with ease.

"""""Ganthet: "Kilowog is free from your influence. Even the power of the Spectre dwarfs the Guardians'."""""""

Theres no escaping the fact that this line from Ganthets very mouth means that the Spectre is more powerful.

When i read the issue and i read this line then i went on to read Parallaxs line i just dismissed Parallaxs line as a mistake.

Evereything up until this comic pointed towards Spectre being more powerful as did Ganthets words and even events in the comic. Spectre exorcised Parallax from itself and Hal Jordan yet Ganthet couldnt rid himself of the parasite alone. He required the aid of the 5 Gl's. All of that makes it very clear that Spectre is indeed more powerful.

In the series when Hal became the Spectre, he shut off the entire Quintessence's power.. including Ganthet.

Dude, you cannot match a blue-dwarf against a chalk-white WRATH OF GOD !!!

Originally posted by ImmortalOne
Dude, you cannot match a blue-dwarf against a chalk-white WRATH OF GOD !!! Truth, but Ganthet IS of the highest teir...Outside of the Spectre, there's not too many people matching the raw power of a guardian.

I used to think Ganthet was more powerful than Spectre but after seeing what Spectre did to my homie Shazaam I dont know if Ganthet has what it takes.

Ganthet did say the Spectres powers dwarf his so Im wondering if Ganthet has some tricks up his sleeves that nobody knows about.

By the way I am very upset with the death of Shazaam. That means no more Captain Marvel either.

Never mess with Spectre !!!

Originally posted by snoopdogg
I used to think Ganthet was more powerful than Spectre but after seeing what Spectre did to my homie Shazaam I dont know if Ganthet has what it takes.

Ganthet did say the Spectres powers dwarf his so Im wondering if Ganthet has some tricks up his sleeves that nobody knows about.

By the way I am very upset with the death of Shazaam. That means no more Captain Marvel either.

wat shazam is dead how? does any one have a scane of it?

Originally posted by supremthor
wat shazam is dead how? does any one have a scane of it? This is the last panel Shazaam was seen in. On the last page of the comic The Phantom Stranger said that he was dead.

I wonder what will happen to Billy Batson?

Originally posted by snoopdogg
This is the last panel Shazaam was seen in. On the last page of the comic The Phantom Stranger said that he was dead.

I wonder what will happen to Billy Batson?

God I love the spectre. lol.
I have nearly assembled every one of his comics, all series'. It was tough, and expensive.

Please. Ganthet is on the same level as Shazam and The Spectre completely raped him in DOV 6. I wouldn't say Ganthet is more powerful than Ion and Hal Jordan Parallax were and Hal said that power was nothing compared to The Spectre.

snoop that isn't the last time we see Shazam alive, on the page where it shows The Rock of Eternity blowing up above Gotham City the page opposite to that Phantom Stranger is telling everyone (in his head for us of course) "I see a Great Stone come crashing down on the ancient Wizard." and it shows a stone coming down on a person that is shaded black looks like Shazam coming down on him. that is the last time we see him in the book, so im pretty sure he's dead since Spectre must have taken all of his power away and he couldn't stop it coming down on him. Shazam was in his place of power and he was at his most powerful during that time and still lost.

Ganthet and the Guardians long ago had Doomsday on there planet Oa and tried for years to destroy him but couldn't so they finally got smart about it realising he couldn't die and sent him halfway across the galaxy. If the Guardians can't even kill Doomsday how is 1 guardian Ganthet going to stand up to The Spectre???

The Spectre wins..................

People have wondered whether those two lines were editorial mistakes. I saw it too. Two different contradicting lines spoken at two different times. One is quoting the other. I've read in other threads that parallax quoting is more reliable. Apaprently, you guys think the second one is unreliable. At that point, it is unclear because it could go either way. But if you take it the way I read it, and the first one is an editorial oversight, which admittedly, not very many people saw at first, and the second comment quoting is the right one, my premises stand as ultimately foolproof except in the face of older comics. However, taking the first to be right, and the second to be wrong still does not change the way the characters behaved, especially Parallax and Spectre himself and the way Geoff Johns presented the story, plotwise and character design wise. So, if we both agree that those statements can read either way, (of course I think the second one is much more clearer and unambiguous and therefore stronger) you line up my presmises and explanations against your own and on a purely dialectic level, they don't stand up.

Spectre doesn't feel like seperating Parallax and Hal? Spectre doesn't feel like shutting off Shazam's power feed when he first battles Cap? Ganthellax is ginormously huge compared to Specthallax because he was just trying to be intimidating? Parallax in his emergence in #3 shreds Spectre and Hal like husks because he was bluffing? The climax of heightened crisis diminishes towards the end of the story? These inconsistencies, in and of itself, clearly show that your conclusions are weak at best. The fact that now your pointing to an editorial ambiguity to bypass these inconsistencies also points to the weakness of your hypothesis. Apparently, the sole evidence you place on Spectre > ganthet w/power of Guardians is now an editorial oversight that could go either way? If that's the case, I have no need to point out anything further and I'll let you chew on it for a while.

Edit: These 3 links point to people on different wavelengths with regards to the editorial oversight. The 2nd one is most on point, but the thread pretty much agrees, the editorial oversight was the 1st comment, not the second:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=77861&page=2&pp=15

http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000042135&messageID=2001237293

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/showthread/t-39960.html

Here's another 5 links more on point with respect to the editorial oversight. They're generally concluded here in my favor as well. You guys are on a dangerous tack. Because if you guys are relying on the editorial oversight in your favor, all you're giving me, is the chance to prove it was on my favor and everything you guys say falls apart. You sure you want to do that? Well maybe you should, because lord knows, your other theses have not kept water with the inconsistencies I have pointed out in plot, actions, artistry, and storytelling:

http://forums.comicbookresources.com/archive/index.php/t-43458.html

http://www.sketchyorigins.com/comics/showthread.php?t=8090&page=4

http://thekryptonian.com/showpost.php?p=187086&postcount=15

http://superherochat.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1208213&sid=46a527006c4174c067b33dc5540cdd56

And on this comic reviewer's page, he also echoes the same editorial oversight thought in my favor:

"I didn%u2019t like how drained Green Arrow was from using the ring, and Johns%u2019s hysterical (not in the funny way) Batman is really grating. Also, there seems to be some confusion in the dialogue about whether the Guardians are more powerful than the Spectre or the other way around. Ganthet says %u201CEven the power of the Spectre dwarfs the Guardians,%u201D (side note: he said %u201Cdwarfs%u201D and %u201CGuardians%u201D >snicker&lt and then Parallax says later, %u201CYou said the Spectre was nothing compared to your power, Guardian.%u201D Uh, no he didn%u2019t%u2026 I%u2019m guessing the first one was the mistake, but if so I think it%u2019s dumb to put the Guardians above the wrath of God. I could go on with the nerdspeak, but why don%u2019t I move on to the next book instead."

Found in:

http://davinder.blogspot.com/2005_02_01_davinder_archive.html

Dude, for Presence's sake..... Spectre is the WRATH OF GOD, its like this..

Spectre= Your Hand
Universe= Aquarium
Inhabitants (Ganthet, Batman, BILLLY BATSON)= Fishes
Presence= You !!!

Get the meaning...... Anything inside the Aquarium can HURT spectre, but the Spectre can kill em all !!!

Maybe the Spectre's normal power is comparable or may be below Ganthet, but Specs power FLUCTUATES !!!! dude....... every fluctuating dude rullezzz these forums (Hulk, Gladiator, GLs) so does Spectre !!!

Even though I said GL powers revolve around will power, Ganthet's power doesnt !!! Because it is capped (I know its never stated, but I'm sure you can see this if use your head) !!!

I don't have to listen to you at all. Especially when you're skirting the issue of what is going on within the pages itself. Your questions are ambiguous, you ask for an EXACT comparison/answer from me, yet you qualify your own statement by saying the power of the spectre fluctuates. Wehn I ask it of you guys, you avoid the contradictions and inconsistencies. Again, try as best to convince me, but do so reasonably. I won't be boxed in.

BTW, if you say the Spectre fluctuates, you just pretty much agreed with everything I said.

Secondly, the power of the Guardians? Yeah, thats been equated to a fundamental part of the Source, which many have referred to as God in the DC universe. Since Ganthet at that time was the sole wielder, you could see why that dwarfs the Spectre who is merely a 'hand' in your analogy. So what now?

Anyway, we're getting off topic dammit. I keep answering and countering everything you guys throw at my position, including peripheral stuff. Time for you guys to buckle down and explain the contradictions and inconsistencies with your own position.

the first 1 where Ganthet says "Even the power of the Spectre dwarfs the Guardians." that means Ganthet is telling Parallax The Spectre is more powerful then the Guardians not the other way around. and pretty much everyone on those forums are in agreement that The Spectre > Ganthet. Even the comic reviewer's page guy says The Spectre should > Ganthet not Ganthet > Spectre. Also during the whole time Parallax was in Hal/Spectre, Spectre himself was trying to figure out a way to get rid of Parallax without hurting Hal, Hal wanted Redemption the Spectre wants Vengeance, Hal won early when he was joined with The Spectre but then Parallax started to come out more and more this was turning Hal into wanting more Redemption and The Spectre then started wanting Vengeance again knowing it could kick Parallax out of Hal's soul but the only way it could happen is if Hal wanted Vengeance not Redemption and right before The Spectre finally split Parallax from Hal Hal was asking for HELP from The Spectre and The Spectre said "ONLY VENGEANCE" then Hal finally went to Vengeance and The Spectre was able to kick him out finally. Right after he dehosted Parallax from Hal, Hal demanded The Spectre to destroy Parallax and The Spectre said "Do not order me, I am not your ring, i am the Spectre, and i have interfered ENOUGH. Your soul is free of the Disease". The Spectre then went directly to Heaven leaving everyone there (notice Ganthet didn't follow him either, if he was more powerful he would be able to stop him from leaving).

also notice in the Forums of this site it is talking about Rebirth #4 and in that they talk about Day of Judgement where some guy puts this down.

"And The Spectre did try to take out Parallax directly on a few occasions, once during Zero Hour and again right afterwards in a tale written by Geoff Johns prior to Day of Judgement. In it, The Spectre is about to destroy Parallax, but stops because he thinks Hal Jordan's soul can be redeemed."

The Spectre was basically trying to free Hal so he could try to be redeemed and have another chance... there is no bigger inconsistence then putting the Wrath of God below Ganthet.

here is a few rankings ppl made showing The Spectre above Ganthet or even Ganthet not being in the ranking at all.
http://bboard.scifi.com/bboard/browse.php/3/4/1505/1/3
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-20314-the-new-whos-the-most-powerfull-marvel-character-ever.html

Your rationales do not directly redeem the 6 inconsistencies I have listed as being important to me. Now according to you, supposedly, its not that the Spectre didn't feel like freeing him, it was because Hal was preventing Spectre because Hal wanting redemption which was counter to Spectre wanting vengeance? You just placed Hal's influence above the Spectre's influence and power! You had better abandon that view and just stick with Spectre didn't feel like it.

Putting the Wrath of God below Ganthet does sound off. I agree. I thought it was vice-versa. But Green Lantern: Rebirth turns that around. But then when you think about it, Ganthet is not just some little gnome alien from another planet. The guy wields the Power of the Guardians solely at that point.

That power comes from the Source itself and is a part of the Source. The Source has been equated to the Presence, God and whatnot. So if Ganthet wielding the Power of the Guardians, is wielding an aspect of the Source/Presence/God itself, and Spectre is merely the wrath avatar, limiting himself to being a pure agent or 'hand' for acts of vengeance, you could logically see how this happens:

'A part of the Source' dwarfs an 'agent of the Source.'

So what now? You guys wanna keep going off these side tacks, I'm happy to tackle them, but I really want to get back to how you guys are reading Green Lantern: Rebirth, because all these peripheral issues are indications to me that your interpretations of Green Lantern: Rebirth are in fact weak and you can't handle the logical arguments I threw your way. Especially after you guys hinged your bets on that editorial/grammatical error and now you have to take it back, given how most people think the other way in my 7 or 8 links. I'm not going to hinge my bets on that. I'm not going to hinge my bets on Source vs Agent of Source. Lets stick to the issues.

And those lists you posted? Those are fan lists, and they aren't even consistent with each other nor with other fan lists I have seen. So those are not convincing to me at all. I might as well quote my own list if I feel like it and prop that up as evidence.

Edit: And how do you reconcile "Hal's desire for redemption overpowering or competing with Spectre's desire for vengeance" with the fact that Parallax was the one responsible for all of Hallax's horrors and not Hal himself? This isn't called Green Lantern: Redemption. Hal doesn't redeem himself at all. Hal is absolved of everything because Parallax is responsible. This is what fans hated, but that is fact. So if this clearly is the case, what does redemption vs vengeance have anything to do with this, given that Hal doesn't have to redeem anything?! Hal never says, "I redeemed myself. It's over." He says, "I'm back to being me again." In other words, Hal wanted to be himself again, and the whole redemption/vengeance motif is not right. He felt it wasn't "him." He suspected that something wasn't right. Of course he feels guilt, but he isn't going around to the confession booth. He's going around living life on his own, free from Parallax and free from Spectre. That is the ultimate triumph of the entire storyline. This 'redemption vs vengeance' is another convenient plot you injected into the storyline to try to explain why Spectre didn't just seperate Hal from Parallax.

for a time Hal won and The Spectre let him continue on that way. Hal did not win in the end The Spectre got his way more then Hal did in wanting Vengeance because he wasn't letting hal sleep or do very much of anything, he was wearing Hal down to the point Hal would have to break and give in to what The Spectre wanted (Vengeance).

Most of those people on those sites don't agree with your view they agree that The Spectre owns Ganthet which he should and does. Shazam/Phantom Stranger/Ganthet are all around the same power level and The Spectre just got done killing Shazam when he was at his most powerful, he made sure Phantom Stranger wouldn't directly be a big problem for a good while and he sure should be able to take out Ganthet, Ganthet can't even get destroy Doomsday.

The 2nd statement Parallax even confirms The Spectre is more powerful when he says The Spectre was holding him back from what he wanted and after he left nobody was there to stop him not even Ganthet that is what this means "Without Jordan's Soul without The Spirit of Vengeance, I have no hands holding me in PLACE. you said The Spectre was nothing compared to YOUR power Guardian, And Parallax STILL LIVES In YOU""" He is going in Ganthet because nobody can stop him and because he was kicked out of Hal's soul and at the same time The Spectre removed him from being his host.

about the 1st statement when they are both talking when Ganthet tells Parallax Spectre is more powerful Parallax says "LIES, You forgot nothing, you allowed for this to happen, without chaos, without evil in the universe you have no reason to exist" Parallax believes Ganthet is lying about what he just said and he believes himself Ganthet is more powerful which he is not..

If you still think Ganthet > Spectre then thats what u think while I and others believe its Spectre > Ganthet. Maybe we will see Spectre and Ganthet fight 1vs1 in Infinite Crisis soon, and if it happens my moneys on Spectre. If the Spectre loses its probably because hes been fighting for almost none stop for 8-10 long months (not even Ganthet can continue to fight like that).

The Redemption vs Vengeance storyline was not injected into the story by me it was injected into the story by DC and the writers themselves! If you followed that storyline along with this 1 it makes sense. Also Hal redeemed himself by fighting the evil that was in him and he does know he was half responsible and everyone else knows that as well, they are not taking all of the blame away from Hal. For people to say DC is just leting Hal off scot free and saying he isn't to blame or he didn't really mean it they don't understand or haven't read everything through correctly. Hal wouldn't even probably remember that part about him needed redeemed because after he was seperated from Spectre he even says he doesn't remember much of what happened while he was connected with him(Spectre).

Originally posted by kevdude
The 2nd statement Parallax even confirms The Spectre is more powerful when he says The Spectre was holding him back from what he wanted and after he left nobody was there to stop him not even Ganthet that is what this means "Without Jordan's Soul without The Spirit of Vengeance, I have no hands holding me in PLACE. you said The Spectre was nothing compared to YOUR power Guardian, And Parallax STILL LIVES In YOU""" He is going in Ganthet because nobody can stop him and because he was kicked out of Hal's soul and at the same time The Spectre removed him from being his host. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here. You say Parallax confirms Spectre > Ganthet in this quote? Looks to me, he confirms the opposite. And where in that quote does it confirm that Spectre was holding Parallax back from what he wanted?

'Holding me in place' does not mean that Parallax was powerless to do anything because he was enjoined to Spectre. I mean, just look at the struggle itself as a chronological timeline. When Hal is joined with Spectre, what happens? Spectre tries to burn Parallax out, ultimately fails and then, asks for Hal's help. During that time, Parallax emerges FULLY and battles Gl's and superheroes. Only until Hal discovers a way to battle Parallax do they together, find a way to seperate Parallax. Therefore, logically, since Spectre's only purpose was to drive Parallax from Hal... and he couldn't do that until Hal was told the truth, then logically, you can conclude, Spectre was powerless on his own against Paralllax. How do you resolve this infallible logic? 'Holding me in place' means that he needs to have a host body to manifest himself, otherwise he's vulnerable to the Guardians' original plan of pure willpower stalemating fear. It doesn't mean Spectre stopped him. If anything, Spectre made things worse because Parallax was leeching onto his power.

Originally posted by kevdude
... About the 1st statement when they are both talking when Ganthet tells Parallax Spectre is more powerful Parallax says "LIES, You forgot nothing, you allowed for this to happen, without chaos, without evil in the universe you have no reason to exist" Parallax believes Ganthet is lying about what he just said and he believes himself Ganthet is more powerful which he is not.. This is exactly why I am taking issue with your positions. You're interpretation of that quote is so far off, man. The 'lies' that Parallax is referring to is when Ganthet references how he was 'free of Parallax's taking away his memories!' Remember when Ganthet and Kyle explain why Ganthet didn't recognize Parallax was free and both hypothesized that Ganthet was somehow brainwashed or influenced by Parallax into forgetting? Ollie and Parallax both reiterate, "That's garbage! They knew!" Ollie thinks they can't be trusted and Parallax believes Ganthet is just purely lying because Ganthet's existence as a Guardian strives on the existence of fear. Without fear and chaos, there is no need for order and the Guardians. I can't believe you think Parallax is referencing Ganthet's comment about how the Power of the Guardians dwarfs the Spectre!

Originally posted by kevdude
The Redemption vs Vengeance storyline was not injected into the story by me it was injected into the story by DC and the writers themselves! If you followed that storyline along with this 1 it makes sense. Also Hal redeemed himself by fighting the evil that was in him and he does know he was half responsible and everyone else knows that as well, they are not taking all of the blame away from Hal. For people to say DC is just leting Hal off scot free and saying he isn't to blame or he didn't really mean it they don't understand or haven't read everything through correctly. Hal wouldn't even probably remember that part about him needed redeemed because after he was seperated from Spectre he even says he doesn't remember much of what happened while he was connected with him(Spectre). Look. There is a reason why this storyline was made. It was to absolve Hal, so that he could return to being a hero. DC dumped this job on Geoff Johns. Although a lot of people have taken issue with this, including myself, that is ultimately the resolution. It is NOT called Green Lantern: Redemption. Rebirth means a new beginning. It means that Hal is free! Everything that happened was the result of Parallax's influence! That's the way the story ends and stands! Hal never says once, "I feel redeemed." He doesn't say, "Now I need to redeem myself." He doesn't say, "There's no way for me to redeem myself." He doesn't say, "Spectre wants vengeance, I just want redemption." You know what he says? He says, "I should have known! If I had known. I would have fought against it!" What does Batman say, "You expect me to believe this? That everything was the result of some parasite influencing you?" How does Hal respond? He doesn't get on the ground and say, "No. You're right. It is my fault and I have to redeem myself." He says, "I don't care what you think." He doesn't have to answer to anybody for Hallax's actions, especially not the one character who wants to hold it against him so badly.

Again, the ultimate resolution of this storyline, is that Hal is free to make his own decisions. No more fear controlling him. No more cries for vengeance. He's in control, in the cockpit, so to speak. Where does Hal go in the new ongoing series? He doesn't go apologizing to ANYBODY. He goes on living his life and trying to pick up its broken pieces by going back to where he left off! For you to say the point of Rebirth was a 'redemption vs vengeance' storyline is so far off from people's interpretations, it leads me to believe that your preconception of Spectre > Ganthet w/ Power of Guardians has completely ruined this storyline for you. For that, I just feel sorry. Now look, Rebirth is an excuse in many people's opinions. But that is what it is and the way DC intended it. They needed Hal back, they didn't want him wrapped up in guilt. Therefore, he needed to be absolved. Absolution does not involve redemption. For you to warp this absolution around to fit your needs of redemption just to show proof as to why Spectre didn't seperate them is what I call 'injecting plot.'

So far, you guys have been bringing up new point after new point and they ultimately fail in convincing me. The ONLY point I am at a loss for is Shazam's apparent defeat. BTW, thanks for spoiling that for me guys. I haven't gotten to my comic shop this week. But in any case, if we assume Shazam's power is completely destroyed, I have to say that Shazam did not represent all of magic, nor did it represent a considerable, fundamental part of the Source/Presence, while the Power of the Guardians does. Weak? Maybe. But let us consider the opposite: If Shazam has survived, and will resurface later, or has transferred his power elsewhere, than this evidence is in my favor in showing how Spectre couldn't vanquish Shazam or his power. Therefore, until we see Crisis resolve itself, this could go either way.

You never adequately countered my 6 original wrongs. You have come up with new points that I have shot down like the editor's oversight and these last two interpretations of quotes. Hell, you even forced me to rationalize the grand order of the DC universe and I have never asked the same of you. You guys need to give it up and concede that my position is stronger. Every new argument of you guys is leading further away from the original 6 premises and is digging yourself further and further into inconsistency. If you want, I can organize a new list of inconsistencies with your opinion and literally pump it back up to nearly a dozen different fallacies and contradictions. But all I need from you, is cogent explanations of the first original 6. The only one I have received a cogent response is to #3. But like I said, that was merely a trap for you and you avoided it.

Originally posted by kevdude
the first 1 where Ganthet says "Even the power of the Spectre dwarfs the Guardians." that means Ganthet is telling Parallax The Spectre is more powerful then the Guardians not the other way around. and pretty much everyone on those forums are in agreement that The Spectre > Ganthet. Even the comic reviewer's page guy says The Spectre should > Ganthet not Ganthet > Spectre. Oh yeah. BTW on this one. Again, a COMPLETE misinterpretation. The gentleman says that the 1st one is a mistake. Which is in agreement with me. Than he says, its dumb to put the Power of the Guardians over the wrath of God. He DOES NOT say its 'wrong.' He says its dumb. Which means, he takes issue with it because it doesn't seem right, but that is how it is presented in the story so he takes it as truth. Stop twisting words like 'dumb' into 'wrong.' I don't like having to point out these misinterpretations.

And apparently, its 3 vs 5 in terms of Ganthet vs Spectre in these forums. The original 2 posters who said Rebirth was written and should be interpreted as ganthet > Spectre and me. The 5 opposers are you, Juntai, GS (who hasn't contributed much), Immortalone and Ultimate Ion. Snoopdog is undecided. Besides, I shot down Juntai's and Immortalone's arguments down.

Honestly, I'm going to start keeping score on each issue presented. If I tally up and illustrate the number of arguments that have been abandoned by you guys, maybe that'll show you how weak your stance is.

Well i give up there no getting through to u that Spectre > Ganthet . Maybe well see them fight in Infinite Crisis and see who wins.

Originally posted by kevdude
I have countered everything you have said, and everything I have said makes perfect sense if you read and look at everything correctly. I was where u was about not understanding rebirth and sorta thinking Ganthet > Spectre but that is not the case at all.. It seems your love for the character Ganthet is blinding you to the truth and you won't give up where it is evidently clear Spectre > Ganthet. Ya I'll admit i love Spectre and I love Ganthet too but I'm not putting him (Spectre) above Archangel Michael or Lucifer Morningstar, that is what you are doing to The Spectre putting Ganthet above him.... GWaaaaagagahghghhhg!!! Man, I couldn't give two craps about Ganthet! I already told you, before reading Rebirth, I thought Spectre > Ganthet also! But that got turned around, not because I am sexually attracted to the stupid midget, but with the way Rebirth reads! WTH?!!? Man, when have any of my damn positions not held water? You keep attacking me by saying, "Well this means this.... and this means that!" Well gimme a break fella, but if you look at the statements in context you see why I think your view is inconsistent!

Your view, just with respect to my 6 original premises:

1) Spectre didn't feel like burning out Parallax on his own,... even though he could. 2) Spectre didn't feel like cutting off Shazam's power stream to Cap at the beginning of the fight,... even though he could. 3)Ganthellax is not as dangerous as Spectrehallax, even though that is the way the creative team depicted him, because Ganthellax is just trying to intimidate them. Also, the stakes were lowered towards the climax, or they weren't really, because people love Ganthet and the possibility of losing him is a 'heightened crisis.' 4)Bottomline, Ganthet has to be wrong for thinking Spectre is weaker. 5) Parallax has to be contradicting himself during his trinity conversation, or in your words, he is making fun of Ganthet and the Spectre.

The first two premises are explained away by "He just didn't feel like it." The third is explained either that the artist was wrong, or via a hypothesis that maybe Parallax was trying to intimidate them, even though rationally, everyone should know he's not as dangerous and people love dwarfs (here, YOU are overestimating people's love for Ganthet, not ME!)... The fourth just flat out rejects the notion that Ganthet knows what he is talking about. Even though Ganthet is a pretty wise character, wiser than all the Guardians and is part of the Quintessence, he simply does not know the pecking order. The fifth one has either one of two alternatives, he either is contradicting himself or he is making 'fun' of Ganthet and the Spectre. You know,... that COULD be an explanation. But doesn't that sound hella weak? Aren't there so many points within just those 5 premises that I can nitpick at to indicate that maybe there is a more rational explanation?

Now lets be fair and structural, list as many reasons that you think are important to your view, where my view doesn't hold up water. List those, and give me a new chance to tackle all your objections at once and if I can resolve them together as a whole, at the very least, all I am expecting you to do, is acknowledge it as being logically airtight.

Originally posted by kevdude
Well i give up there no getting through to u that Spectre > Ganthet . Maybe well see them fight in Infinite Crisis and see who wins. Y'know what. I'm disappointed. Instead of recognizing the faults of your own interpretations and readings, or instead of backing up your own theories by logically debunking my counters, you just decide to give up. Looks like someone just got beaten in a debate. If your position was really that strong and solid, you could reconcile everything with logic. But assumptions and injected plots abound.

The only strong premise that could go either way, is the feat of Spectre apparently destroying Shazam. But again, that could go either way because we haven't seen the end result of this. Is the power of Shazam really gone? Where is Cap and his family? Is their a successor to the power? In the end, when I decide to enlighten you, I'll post my version of what happens in Rebirth in a concise summation and explain how this is reconciled with people's belief that Spectre ought to be greater than Ganthet. Maybe when you see it as a whole, you'll finally own up to the fact that it makes more sense than your view. Because lord knows, I shot down everything you and your friends posted individually and you guys never came back with logical retorts to bolster your own view. Every new premise you tried to use was shot down and subsequently abandoned whereas I have abandoned nothing. You have never shown any of my premises taken as a whole to be weak and contradictory with each other. Maybe tomorrow, I'll post the summation for your benefit.

Ok Ive been maybe tackling it the wrong way lol. u said you thought it was Spectre > Ganthet which it is, you said that before u read Rebirth, now i am asking you to read rebirth again and don't think or listen about what Ganthet and Parallax are saying to one another, listen and really pay attention to what Hal and The Spectre are talking about that is more important then what Parallax and Ganthet is talking about.


1. The main reason he couldn't burn Parallax out of Hals soul was because Hal was wanting redemption while Spectre was wanting Vengeance, "note before Hal/Parallax joined The Spectre he was about to burn Parallax out himself but that would have meant Hal going to hell and The Spectre didn't want that so he gave Hal a chance at redeeming himself and going to Heaven". The main chance Parallax had a chance to begin to fight Spectre was when he was joined along with him, after he was split from him again he wouldn't be a problem for Spectre and Spectre just ignored him while Parallax didn't even fight The Spectre while they was seperated.

2. I'm guessing from what Spectre said he just couldn't take Caption Marvels powers away because he was filled with so much magic, even the Spectre was amazed at how much magic he had protecting him.

3. I wouldn't say the stakes was lowered they could have lost the battle still and lost Ganthet was well, Parallax was getting more determinded because he had beings that was actually fighting him and putting up a good fight, this made him try and start effecting more and more people in Los Angeles riots was breaking out feeding Parallax's power and cops was trigger happy in Star City.

4. In your view Ganthet is more powerful then Spectre in mine he isn't so if your saying u believe that he thinks hes more powerful then The Spectre then I would say he is wrong for thinking that. I wouldn't call him dumb or something like that he's just way to over confiedent in his powers.

5. he is very much contradicting himself because he's way to confident in himself, he thinks hes won the battle between Hal/Spectre so he doesn't care about them.. Parallax even said when he was going into Ganthet 'You said The Spectre was nothing compared to your power guardian, and Parallax still lives in You' if they did indeed mean for Ganthet to say hes more powerful then Spectre in the first 1 then they messed up bad. Parallax is telling Guardian he isn't as powerful as The Spectre and if he was as powerful as The Spectre why isn't he going to stop him now???? He can't stop him because he's not as powerful as The Spectre.

The Spectre has taken on a full powered Shazam in his realm while Spectre wasn't as powerful as he usually is, hes been fighting for 6 long months almost constantly, give the guy a break!

You have renewed my debating vigor! This is more like it! Only,... my back is aching from sitting in class for 3 hours and sitting here at my desk with this crappy chair for another 2 and a half hours listening to Lynyrd Skynyrd and e-mailing/posting. So I'll have at it tomorrow. If you could, it would be awesome if you posted my inconsistencies and own contradictions through your eyes and force me to be on the defensive also. Obviously, some are taken care of by the 5-6 topics we've been discussing. But if you think of anything else inconsistent with my opinion, make a whole list for me and I'll tackle it all tomorrow afternoon. Peace!

Ok, now to tackle this. I'm back and I'm gonna try to bolster my arguments my clear illustrations along with some scans. I'll tackle your arguments in succession:

#1 Why didn't Spectre seperate Parallax and Hal earlier?

Originally posted by kevdude
1. The main reason he couldn't burn Parallax out of Hals soul was because Hal was wanting redemption while Spectre was wanting Vengeance, "note before Hal/Parallax joined The Spectre he was about to burn Parallax out himself but that would have meant Hal going to hell and The Spectre didn't want that so he gave Hal a chance at redeeming himself and going to Heaven". The main chance Parallax had a chance to begin to fight Spectre was when he was joined along with him, after he was split from him again he wouldn't be a problem for Spectre and Spectre just ignored him while Parallax didn't even fight The Spectre while they was seperated. Two reasons why I think this explanation of #1 is wrong. First, if you look at this collage of scans, Spectre clearly says he needs Hal's help and Parallax says, "I'm too powerful even for you" (which Spectre doesn't counter). This shows that Spectre didn't have the power to do it on his own in the first place:

Now the second reason I think you're wrong about premise #1, is because you discuss how Hal's search for redemption countered Spectre's need for vengeance and this dispute was the cause for Spectre's inability to seperate Parallax. This assumption is incorrect. Spectre doesn't say anything about redemption hindering him EVER. If anything, Parallax is too strong.

But the reason why neither Hal nor Spectre could win is because neither redemption nor vengeance is effective. The only thing that works is overcoming great fear with courage and willpower. Hal ultimately brings about the seperation of Parallax from his soul and the entire conflict into resolution by fighting fear. Do you see why the whole 'redemption vs vengeance' is pointless? In the end, those two elements, either together or alone have done NOTHING. Even Hal himself recognizes it. He doesn't say these next few things because he thinks he was redeemed. He doesn't say these things because he thinks the power of vengeance won... Just look at these scans where he actually dismisses redemption (soul-searching) and vengeance altogether!

Now for the next argument, I asked you: #2 Spectre was brawling with Capt. Marvel himself before the Shadowpact came in, why didn't he just shut off the source from Shazam at that time?
Originally posted by kevdude
2. I'm guessing from what Spectre said he just couldn't take Caption Marvels powers away because he was filled with so much magic, even the Spectre was amazed at how much magic he had protecting him.

The Spectre has taken on a full powered Shazam in his realm while Spectre wasn't as powerful as he usually is, hes been fighting for 6 long months almost constantly, give the guy a break! Hmmm. Interesting. What was even more interesting was something Juntai posted after this thread was moved:
Originally posted by Juntai
And also in Day of Vengeance, JSA tie-in, Spectre snapped his fingers and shut off Black Adam, then banished Thunderbolt back to the 5th dimension, then killed Atom Smasher, effortlessly. If he can do it to Black Adam, he could have easily done to Captain Marvel too, right? It's the same shit right? Good. Why didn't he? God works in mysterious ways. Very interesting. I don't have that comic, but Juntai doesn't seem to be lying at all. So in other words, your arguments are that since Spectre can best one of the Quintessential beings, he could best another, namely Ganthet. That certainly provided me food for thought. It was the best argument you guys came up with. However, I have an explanation. If you look at the next few scans, you see that Spectre beats Shazam because he, very simply put, cheats. Let me illustrate with scans of the fight.

Spectre is tired from battling day after day, and he gets a couple of nice zingers on Shazam, but Shazam puts Spectre down completely. Shazam even says that he senses no power in Spectre after the ass-whupping:

ZOUNDS! What is this? Spectre clearly has no power, but he arises?! Is his power purely limitless?! A super-powered Shazam cannot defeat the Spectre?! Crap, my 'Ganthet > Spectre' belief is weakening!

Oh... waitaminute! That cheater! He stole the magic from Shazam! That's how he regenerated. That's how he wins ultimately. Even Spectre says clearly, "Do you finally comprehend, Wizard? In duress, I can take magic from anywhere." Here he explains why he could take out Shazam. He cheated by drawing out his magic and taking it for himself. As you can see, from these last three illustrations: Spectre, by his own power, can't hope to beat a Quintessential being. He will get whupped. Only by virtue of being a magical being himself, was he able to suck out Shazam's incredible power.

If he fought Ganthet, he would get his ass sorely whupped like Shazam initally did. So the real point of the matter now is: Can Spectre suck out the Power of the Guardians from Ganthet? Doubt it. He couldn't do it to Hallax during Zero Hour and he couldn't suck out the fear that drove Parallax. Guess its a one-trick pony that works only on magic. But again... the most important thing to leave this argument with,... is: When the Spectre was using his OWN power, a Quintessential being smacked the crap out of him. So we see now, why Quintessential beings like Ganthet dwarf the Spectre.

Now let me move onto #4, since #2-3 are pretty much the same.

#4 Why did Geoff Johns make P-infected Ganthet look more threatening than P-infected Spectre/Jordan and used the former as the climax? You responded:
Originally posted by kevdude
3. I wouldn't say the stakes was lowered they could have lost the battle still and lost Ganthet was well, Parallax was getting more determinded because he had beings that was actually fighting him and putting up a good fight, this made him try and start effecting more and more people in Los Angeles riots was breaking out feeding Parallax's power and cops was trigger happy in Star City. I still think this is quite weak. First off, look at this collage of scans. Who looks more powerful and more threatening? Spectrehallax or Ganthellax?

I mean... there just isn't any comparison at all. You surmised that maybe Ganthellax was bigger because Parallax, knowing he had less power, wanted to put fear into the heroes. Pretty good logic, except for one thing. He was kicking the crap out of those heroes before, and none of them posed any threat whatsoever. Why try to intimidate those who can't affect you in any way? Even Guy, Kilowog or Stewart at that moment were still useless. In fact, the only ones he was afraid of, were Hal and Kyle. And they weren't even there.

I think this is the MOST logical explanation behind the vast differences in appearance. Ganthellax is seriously more powerful than Spectrehallax. It shows a heightened crisis, which is very logical for the end of the story and the pictures and plot illustrate this very well.

#5 Why did Ganthet not know he was less powerful than the Spectre? You responded:
Originally posted by kevdude
4. In your view Ganthet is more powerful then Spectre in mine he isn't so if your saying u believe that he thinks hes more powerful then The Spectre then I would say he is wrong for thinking that. I wouldn't call him dumb or something like that he's just way to over confiedent in his powers. Well... hey. Just on this very facet alone, we agree Ganthet thinks he is more powerful than Spectre. Ganthet, just by being a Quintessential, would logically know about this, correct? I mean... if you went up to Zeus... and asked him, "Is Spectre more powerful than you?" You won't expect, Zeus to say, "Spectre? That n00b?! Spectre ph33rs my l33t hax0r skillz!!!"

I'm not trying to twist your words so that you're suggesting Ganthet is a fool. What I mean is that they are very very very wise. After all, they've been around since the beginning of time. I think its safe to assume they know what their place in the universe is. After all, a lot of the things I posted earlier help support that Ganthet was indeed, very correct about his statement. Including the scan at the bottom. Hell, in GL Corps: Recharge #1, thats the opening blurb!

BTW, I won't post anything else in that comic because to do that would be to spoil it, since its only been out for less than 2 weeks. Unfortunately, others have not been so polite. I mean, there is stuff in that book that I think supports 'Ganthet > Spectre,' but I am considerate dammit! I mean, at least wait 2 weeks before discussing new comics! DON'T SPOIL!

#6 Why did Parallax refer to Spectre and Jordan as mere hosts during their trinity conversation, and also repeat Ganthet's utterances that Ganthet > Spectre right before he infected him? And finally we come to the end. You responded:
Originally posted by kevdude
5. he is very much contradicting himself because he's way to confident in himself, he thinks hes won the battle between Hal/Spectre so he doesn't care about them.. Parallax even said when he was going into Ganthet 'You said The Spectre was nothing compared to your power guardian, and Parallax still lives in You' if they did indeed mean for Ganthet to say hes more powerful then Spectre in the first 1 then they messed up bad. Parallax is telling Guardian he isn't as powerful as The Spectre and if he was as powerful as The Spectre why isn't he going to stop him now???? He can't stop him because he's not as powerful as The Spectre. Parallax is not contradicting himself, in fact because I've illustrated how Spectre can't do anything on his own in my first rebuttal, what Parallax says in my first scan is very correct. Parallax knows Ganthet is more powerful, and thats why he quotes Ganthet. He doesn't quote him because he is mocking his statement and reversing it. He's putting everyone on notice that the sh1t officially hit the fan. This is in line with the plot and adds to the heightened climax which we expect at the end of the story. You're theory is not very well supported and is controversial at best.

It's been a fine debate and I hope to hear more. Again, I'm not saying your ideas are foolish. You could read GL: Rebirth and DoV that way, but I think they more logically read in a different way. And that different way evidences how 'Ganthet w/ Power of Guardians > Spectre.'

...who the Hell is Ganthet?

Originally posted by EsteemedLeader
...who the Hell is Ganthet?

here...
http://dccomics.com/secret_files/dc_character.php?sc_dc_itemCode=ganthet

Originally posted by EsteemedLeader
...who the Hell is Ganthet? This is Ganthet, you numbnuts:

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
This is Ganthet, you numbnuts:

Just because I don't keep up with GL stuff doesn't make me a numbnuts.

Originally posted by EsteemedLeader
Just because I don't keep up with GL stuff doesn't make me a numbnuts.

Here, from what I have seen this has the most indepth DC information site I have seen. Just search for the character here and get a bio

http://www.dcuguide.com/Who_Home.php

Yes, but I dont see, why Specs cant just absorb Ganthets powers ??

cheating vs Shazam ehh umm no that is a part of his power, just because Shazam says something does not mean it is true, when they was talking The Spectre tells him before the fight "Do you think to understand me? Can you actually imagine id look for wisdom in the insipid babble of a child?" that is clearly saying The Spectre owns anyone he wants except The Presence himself or Lucifer/Michael.... he can draw power from anyone anywhere whenever he wants to help him out which he clearly did. Hes been fighting for MONTHS and during these MONTHS Shazam has had TIME to get ready for the fight which he did and he LOST. what chance would Ganthet have against The Spectre?? NONE, the Spectre knows hes going to win given it be a hard fight or a easy fight he will win!!!!

The combined forces of the guardians with Ganthet couldn't beat Doomsday how are they ever going to beat The Spectre?? they Can't hes above them.... the Spectre needed Hals help because he was wanting Redemption other then Vengeance, notice BEFORE Hal and The Spectre was separated Hal asks Spectre to help him what is Spectres replay??? "ONLY IN VENGEANCE" after a few seconds we turn the page and I'm guessing Hal finally gives into the Spectre into wanting Vengeance and The Spectre alone separates them all. Its another way of separating them from Parallax that Hal/Spectre used then what Ganthet and the 5 GLs used in separating Parallax from Ganthet.... The Spectre and Hal used Vengeance to seperate them from Parallax, while Ganthet and the 5 GLs used Will Power to seperate them from Parallax....


I have already thought of all these things and continue to say The Spectre > Ganthet... Nothing you have ever shown has shown Ganthet > The Spectre, in more you have shown more how The Spectre > Ganthet because he was able to take away power from a full powered Shazam when he was in his own dimension...

The Spectre owns Shazam/Ganthet and pretty much everyone else in the DCU... trust me reread rebirth and the DOV comics another 10 times and you will understand what I'm saying, if not then try reading a few comics of The Spectre with Hal as his Host or whatever and you will understand....

Originally posted by ImmortalOne
Yes, but I dont see, why Specs cant just absorb Ganthets powers ?? He says in this scan I posted, that he can take magic from anywhere. He specifically states magic. The Power of the Guardians is not magic. Even if he could absorb anything, why didn't he absorb Parallax's power to end his threat?

Because, like himself, Parralax is not abeing of Power, he is just a hollow conscience........ If Parralax HAD his OWN power, he surely wouldve struggle to break free from his prison !!!

Parrlax is a spirit who needs a host, a body to do stuff, just like Cyborg Supez !!!

Keep in mind people, Spectre was weakened when he went into the battle against Shazam

"Your overconfidence is misplaced, Ghost! You're still weakened from days of struggle, while I'm in my place of power"

Well, keep in mind wizard, for he is THE WRATH OF GOD !!!

Originally posted by kevdude
cheating vs Shazam ehh umm no that is a part of his power, just because Shazam says something does not mean it is true, when they was talking The Spectre tells him before the fight "Do you think to understand me? Can you actually imagine id look for wisdom in the insipid babble of a child?" that is clearly saying The Spectre owns anyone he wants except The Presence himself or Lucifer/Michael.... he can draw power from anyone anywhere whenever he wants to help him out which he clearly did. Hes been fighting for MONTHS and during these MONTHS Shazam has had TIME to get ready for the fight which he did and he LOST. what chance would Ganthet have against The Spectre?? NONE, the Spectre knows hes going to win given it be a hard fight or a easy fight he will win!!!!

The combined forces of the guardians with Ganthet couldn't beat Doomsday how are they ever going to beat The Spectre?? they Can't hes above them.... the Spectre needed Hals help because he was wanting Redemption other then Vengeance, notice BEFORE Hal and The Spectre was separated Hal asks Spectre to help him what is Spectres replay??? "ONLY IN VENGEANCE" after a few seconds we turn the page and I'm guessing Hal finally gives into the Spectre into wanting Vengeance and The Spectre alone separates them all. Its another way of separating them from Parallax that Hal/Spectre used then what Ganthet and the 5 GLs used in separating Parallax from Ganthet.... The Spectre and Hal used Vengeance to seperate them from Parallax, while Ganthet and the 5 GLs used Will Power to seperate them from Parallax....


I have already thought of all these things and continue to say The Spectre > Ganthet... Nothing you have ever shown has shown Ganthet > The Spectre, in more you have shown more how The Spectre > Ganthet because he was able to take away power from a full powered Shazam when he was in his own dimension...

The Spectre owns Shazam/Ganthet and pretty much everyone else in the DCU... trust me reread rebirth and the DOV comics another 10 times and you will understand what I'm saying, if not then try reading a few comics of The Spectre with Hal as his Host or whatever and you will understand.... So, out of Spectre's own powerless mouth, the statement of him saying "that the reason he won't lose is because he can siphon the power from Shazam and add it to his own" means nothing? I mean... that was the crux of the battle! He used his own magic against him! Magic! He asks if Shazam can comprehend that fact, even! So yes, he does in fact cheat by virtue of being a magical being, just like when super-powered Cap Marvel could go toe-to-toe with Spectre! And I have never seen evidence of him absorbing the Power if the Guardians nor even Parallax's power of fear! If he could absorb anything from anywhere, why didn't he just absorb Parallax's power! Why do you dismiss the Power of the Guardians so much? Its a fundamental part of the Source itself! It powers the GL corps without limit, allowing them to perform miracles!

And also, when did Hal in any of my scans ever respond to Spectre's cry for vengeance during that struggle? He pretty much dismisses it entirely. Spectre's cry for vengeance is distracting Hal from fighting Parallax properly. Hal can't fight Parallax with vengeance. He has to fight it with courage and willpower. Are you arguing this? How many scans and arguments of Hal dismissing redemption and vengeance both in the same sentences do you need to figure out that neither mattered against Parallax?

Redemption was pointless since everything that Hal did as Hallax was done because of Parallax's schemes! That theme is a little bit forced in this storyline by Geoff Johns, but how can you argue that wasn't the intent and purpose of this storyline for DC's editors?! Hal Jordan DOES NOT redeem his or Parallax's actions NOR does he cast vengeance on Parallax. HE CONQUERS GREAT FEAR WITH WILLPOWER AND COURAGE.

Yes, but that still dont explain why he cant absorb GL powers........ ??

He cant absorb Parrlax,its made of FEAR !!! not power !!!

any other forum which debates Ganthet or Shazam > Spectre clearly shows everyone teaching the person that believes Ganthet > Spectre as not true.. Your forums that you brought up shows a few people believed at 1 time from reading Rebirth that Ganthet > Spectre.. They was then taught that the Spectre > Ganthet from everyone on that forum reading Rebirth/DOV and also reading Hal/Spectres comic book and reading JSA a few months before Rebirth.

So because The Spectre is more able to think farther ahead and more smarter then his opponent he is cheating??? No, it is still a part of The Spectre whether Shazam likes it or not... Also the only time Hal has ever wanted to destroy anything was when he turned into Vengeance, right after Parallax was freed from Hal/Spectre he DEMANDED The Spectre to destroy him (something Hal has never tried to do with anyone other then Darksied). The Spectre then told him well you know you have the comic in your hands...

Hal Jordan conquered great fear with Will Power and Courage while he was alive in his real body fighting Parallax with the other 4 GLs... not in the Spirit.. He never conquered it while he was with The Spectre. He only chose to finally give into The Spectres demands for Vengeance when nothing else worked..

Fear/Parallax is everyones emotions in the universe combined into 1, it is even The Spectres fear some could say.

So Parralx is th embodiment of fear in teh whole DCU ?? WHOA !!

yea thats what he is, Parallax = Fear

Thats whack...... Hal Jordan must had a ton of courage and willpower... !!!!

Maybe you're right. Even though Spectre is a magical being and can steal magic, that doesn't automatically prevent him from stealing other types of powers. Even one so vast and limitless as the Power of the Guardians. Although from his conversation with Shazam, why would he say I can absorb magic? Why not just say power? Why would he refer to himself as a magical being rather than a powered being or a powerful being when he is talking to Shazam as he's draining him?

Regardless, the absence of direct evidence is something I've abhorred in kevdude's analyses. Although Spectre didn't say it was Hal's want for redemption that stopped him, apparently that's what kept Spectre from doing his job. Although Hal never even said or thought the word 'redemption' once throughout GL: Rebirth and the new ongoing series, that is what Hal kept fighting for throughout GL: Rebirth.

If anything, Spectre didn't absorb the Power of the Guardians from Hal during Zero Hour. That surely would have hurt him. But the facts remain, Ganthet said Spectre is nothing to him. Parallax repeats this assessment. Parallax also says Spectre is nothing to him. So there is direct evidence of my theory 'Ganthet w/ Power of Guardians > Spectre.' Kevdude's argument that 1) Ganthet is wrong 2) Parallax is mocking Ganthet and 3) Parallax is cocky just seem waaaay too stretched to be taken at face value.

I think your view is very suspect and I can't find any printed words throughout GL: Rebirth that directly confirm what you say. And in fact, there's a lot of printed words that contradict you! But apparently, I can't read them like that because you argue there's a different meaning to what is actually being said or thought. Go figure. How do I fight against that? "Those words in thought captions and in conversation bubbles don't really mean what they say." I had thought, that this shaky view and my solid presentation of the events would be enough to convince you. Apparently not. But feel free to renew the argument to crack my view. You don't have to limit yourself to the six premises anymore. Feel free to take a shot at something else.

Dude, Parallax is way cocky, so is Ganthet (but he has power to back it up)

Why did Spex said I CAN ABSORB ANY MAGIC.......
You wouldnt say "I had sex with everything and everyone in the world" to boast to your partner wouldnt you...... "I had sex with every sexy girl in the world:"//// Now that sounds more masculine and less gay !!!

He said what suits the situation best !!!

And yes, thats not a comical fact, but MY opinion, a Spectre fan !

oneDumb when Ganthet said "even the power of the Spectre Dwarfs the Guardians" that means he is saying The Spectre is more powerful then all of the Guardians even him Ok?? not the other way around like a a lot of other people believe.. If DC and the writers did really mean it as Ganthet saying he is more powerful then The Spectre then it would still work with The Spectre being more powerful then the Guardians as what Parallax said when he was entering Ganthet "Without Jordain's soul without the spirit of vengeance., I have no hands holding me in PLACE, You said The Spectre was nothing compared to Your power Guardian, and Parallax still lives in YOU" That means if the first statement is wrong and it should say Ganthet is supposedly saying hes more powerful then The Spectre then in Parallax's statement he is arguing what Ganthet said saying "If you are more powerful then The Spectre then how can I still be here alive and YOu can't hurt me??" he then enters Ganthet.. Understand??



Whether or not the first statement is wrong is not the argument, the argument is whether Spectre > Ganthet, which he clearly does...

Yeehaw !!!

Originally posted by kevdude
oneDumb when Ganthet said "even the power of the Spectre Dwarfs the Guardians" that means he is saying The Spectre is more powerful then all of the Guardians even him Ok?? not the other way around like a a lot of other people believe.. If DC and the writers did really mean it as Ganthet saying he is more powerful then The Spectre then it would still work with The Spectre being more powerful then the Guardians as what Parallax said when he was entering Ganthet "Without Jordain's soul without the spirit of vengeance., I have no hands holding me in PLACE, You said The Spectre was nothing compared to Your power Guardian, and Parallax still lives in YOU" That means if the first statement is wrong and it should say Ganthet is supposedly saying hes more powerful then The Spectre then in Parallax's statement he is arguing what Ganthet said saying "If you are more powerful then The Spectre then how can I still be here alive and YOu can't hurt me??" he then enters Ganthet.. Understand?? Nice logic. Except when did Ganthet ever try to attack Parallax? So what event was he referring to when he tried to imply that Ganthet couldn't hurt himor get rid him? Ganthet hadn't taken the fight to parallax at all yet. Hell, Ganthet easily freed Kilowog, Guy and Stewart from Parallax's influence with a flick of his finger. That is direct evidence against your line of thought also. Spectre couldn't accomplish that much even when he became one with the damn soul of that person!
Again, you derive many hypotheses without showing direct evidence. And lets not go back to the whole editorial's oversight thing. On that exact issue, I posted no less than 7 different threads earlier, where nearly everybody agreed it was supposed to be "Even the Power of the Guardians' dwarfs the Spectre." So once again, you're propping up a view without direct evidence. I have to look at what is said or being written in a 'different' way. This is weak. Even more so, I've listed a lot of direct evidence against your hypotheses: 1) Ganthet & Parallax saying they're both more powerful than Spectre. 2) Ganthellax looking more poweful than Spectrehallax. 3) Spectre's own words that he cannot accomplish the seperation of Parallax without Hal's help. (And Hal's help DOES NOT come from his relinquishment of redemption, it comes from his perception of the truth that he must fight great fear!) 4) Hal dismissing redemption and vengeance in his words and thoughts. 5) Spectre getting the holy snot beat out of him before he siphons Shazam's power. 6) Spectre stating he is defeating Shazam with Shazam's own power.

Why does reading all this require such a degree of perception that I can't take it for face value and there's something more important that completely sets those things in reverse?! Man, in any formalized debate, this kind of logic would literally be laughed at! If Spectre had said, "My power is greater than yours Ganthet." Would you believe me if I said, thats not what he really meant because of etc, etc?! Throw me a frickin bone here!

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
6) Spectre stating he is defeating Shazam with Shazam's own power.


Well he can do that to Ganthet ~!

are we reading the same comic books???? if you read Rebirth correctly and DOV and anything else that has to do with The Spectre he is more powerful then Ganthet. If you said Ganthet owns The Spectre on any other comic book forums u would be laughed at totally for not understanding Rebirth..... Hardly anyone if you read the forums correctly agree that Ganthet > Spectre, they are all saying The Spectre > Ganthet from looking at how the characters react with each other and other things that happened in Rebirth.

Do you hate The Spectre or what???? It seems you aren't even trying to look into what he is doing or saying to combat your own thoughts that Ganthet > Spectre.. I have said time and time again how The Spectre > Ganthet, and how it works in the Rebirth storyline... Think about it really hard and reread Rebirth another 10 times to understand it...

Also The Spectre does not have to come out and say "I am more powerful then you Ganthet", No he is already saying it WHEN YOU LOOK AT HIS ACTIONS IN THE COMIC BOOK. The Spectre couldn't remove Parallax from Hal because he needed Hals help, before Hal knew what Spectre was doing he was trying to burn Parallax out of Hal himself without Hal's help, he couldn't do it because it would take both of them since Hal is a host for both Spectre and Parallax. Alone Parallax wouldn't even think about doing anything to The Spectre..

When did Ganthet ever try to fight Parallax??? Well he was there helping the JSA and JLA trying to fight it, and none of them was doing anything to Parallax at that time....

During the fight between Spectre and Shazam, he is in Shazams own place of power where he would be at his most powerful.. Are you ignoring that??? Yes???? If anyone is cheating its Shazam not fighting somewhere where it would be fair, he would get the crap beat out of him if he did that and you know it!!! Give Spectre a break hes been fighting and fighting for days. During all this time he has taken on Phantom Stranger turning him into a mouse, Captian Marvel with every magical being in the DC Earth helping him, Blackbriar Thorn and nearly 700 other sorcers at the same time, Doctor Fate, had his chest and head literally cracked open from Black Adam while he was fighting other beings at the same time and dealt with Black Adam also, was blinded by a 5D character Thunderbolt but was STILL able to send him back to the 5th Dimension...

No the Spectre hasn't really been fighting like hell for the past few months (days in comics), give me a break!!!

Originally posted by kevdude
The Spectre couldn't remove Parallax from Hal because he needed Hals help, before Hal knew what Spectre was doing he was trying to burn Parallax out of Hal himself without Hal's help, he couldn't do it because it would take both of them since Hal is a host for both Spectre and Parallax. Alone Parallax wouldn't even think about doing anything to The Spectre..You are completely off the wall. Let me give you a timeline of events to illustrate my points.

1) Hallax reignites the sun and dies in the process.
2) Spectre connects with Hal for the sole purpose of burning out Parallax.
3) Years go by and Spectre has not done this. In fact, Parallax has been getting stronger up until the beginning of Rebirth. Spectre fails monumentally when Parallax completely emerges.
4) Spectre finally realizes he needs help. He asks Hal to fight Parallax in the one way Spectre can't. He reveals to Hal, the truth.
5) Hal realizes that he must recognize fear and fight against it.
6) Hal does this and weakens Parallax's connection to Hal's soul so much that Spectre's lesser power finally seals the deal.

What does this timeline illustrate? Spectre was not more powerful than Parallax. On a pure power level, Spectre's power of vengeance was useless against Parallax. In fact, you could say Parallax's power dwarfs even the Spectre. Kinda like how the Power of the Guardians dwarfs the Spectre, huh?

To reiterate, Spectre's ineffectualness and lack of power against Parallax is a testament to the fact that he had less power than Parallax. Since the Power of the Guardian's beat Parallax once before, obviously, Ganthet w/ Power of Guardians is stronger than Parallax. Thus both are more powerful than Spectre. This is supported by Ganthet's and Parallax's own statements that they are more powerful than the Spectre.

Originally posted by kevdude
During the fight between Spectre and Shazam, he is in Shazams own place of power where he would be at his most powerful.. Are you ignoring that??? Yes???? If anyone is cheating its Shazam not fighting somewhere where it would be fair, he would get the crap beat out of him if he did that and you know it!!! Give Spectre a break hes been fighting and fighting for days. During all this time he has taken on Phantom Stranger turning him into a mouse, Captian Marvel with every magical being in the DC Earth helping him, Blackbriar Thorn and nearly 700 other sorcers at the same time, Doctor Fate, had his chest and head literally cracked open from Black Adam while he was fighting other beings at the same time and dealt with Black Adam also, was blinded by a 5D character Thunderbolt but was STILL able to send him back to the 5th Dimension...

No the Spectre hasn't really been fighting like hell for the past few months (days in comics), give me a break!!! So what does this prove? Spectre has definitively put down Shazam for the count. What does it prove? Absolutely nothing. Again, Spectre had to harness Shazam's own power to best him. This is directly analagous to Dr. Doom besting Silver Surfer. Dr. Doom is pretty powerful, but not as powerful as Silver Surfer's Power Cosmic. But look at Doom! He's a smart guy and siphons the Power Cosmic, making Surfer weaker and Doom stronger at the same time! Doom turns his own power against him. This is exactly what happened at the end of 'Day of Vengeance.'

Once again, look at what Spectre says and does:

You have to also remember that Shazam was a bit drained from his tussle with Mordru. Shazam is a high member of the Lords of Order hes also the most powerful member of the Quintessence imo. Ganthet is pretty high as well.

The opening to the new GL Corps: Recharge comic line is also quite illustrative. The Guardians are the oldest and most powerful beings in existence. Let's not forget, God created the Spectre as a result of his failure with Eclipso. So Ganthet basically pre-existed Spectre. Keeping this in mind as your context, it can help you understand how Ganthet w/ Power of the Guardians dwarfs the Spectre.

Now, just think about the power they harness and for what purpose they wield it. 1) Ganthet wields the Power of the Guardians, a fundamental and limitless aspect of the Source. They protect against evil and compel order throughout the entire universe. 2) Spectre wields magical power of vengeance granted to him by God. His power is very limited in scope and purpose. He uses magic to punish evildoing beings. (Too bad this power was worthless on its own against Parallax).

Originally posted by jrodslam
You have to also remember that Shazam was a bit drained from his tussle with Mordru. Shazam is a high member of the Lords of Order hes also the most powerful member of the Quintessence imo. Ganthet is pretty high as well. Very true. Additionally, the seven sins were also kept prison by Shazam's powers. Who knows what other enchantments were dependant on Shazam's power? The Rock of Eternity seemed to depend on Shazam's power as well. It may very well be, that Shazam could not afford to use all his power for fear of unraveling many enchantments he protected. Which illustrates the dangers inherent when Spectre defeated him. All those enchantments and seals are undone. The Rock of Eternity explodes, the Seven Sins escape,... in other words magic runs rampant.

I happen to think that Ganthet is the most powerful of the Quintessence since he stewards the Power of the Guardians. Thats an entire spectrum or aspect of the Source that he wields. Whereas Shazam's power is magic, and he doesn't hold a monopoly on that. In fact, the Phantom Stranger and Zeus are magical as well.

Lastly, I think there is pretty strong proof that Spectre could not pull the same trick against Ganthet that he did with Shazam. Spectre says himself, that as a magical being he can draw magic from anywhere (see above picture). He doesn't say he can draw power. Additionally, if he could draw ANY power he wanted, then he should have been able to draw Parallax's power into him, but he didn't and couldn't. Therefore, it seems pretty obvious that he can pull the siphon trick only with magic.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Let's not forget, God created the Spectre as a result of his failure with Eclipso. So Ganthet basically pre-existed Spectre. Keeping this in mind as your context, it can help you understand how Ganthet w/ Power of the Guardians dwarfs the Spectre.

GOD created Spectre as a result of his failure with Eclipso? Not as a result of the angel Raphael repenting his sins for rebelling against heaven?

Ive never heard about it being because of Eclipso.

Originally posted by jrodslam
GOD created Spectre as a result of his failure with Eclipso? Not as a result of the angel Raphael repenting his sins for rebelling against heaven?

Ive never heard about it being because of Eclipso. You're right in one sense, the Spectre is an angel who repented for his sins. But the purpose of the Spectre was to replace Eclipso, who was God's original avatar. It was John Ostrander (the main writer responsible for modern-age Spectre) who wrote this: Eclipso was an avatar that carried out revenge, as opposed to the Spectre, a pure avatar of vengeance, which is more in line with God's will.

Cool.

And knowing is half the battle!

I agree The Spectre underestimated Parallax, but Parallax underestimated The Spectre/Hal more.

"He asks Hal to fight Parallax in the one way Spectre can't. He reveals to Hal, the truth"
That is true but its only because his host is wanting redemption not vengeance. The Spectre realised that redemption could not get rid of Parallax without Hal switching to vengeance. when Hal was halfway getting rid of Parallax, The Spectre is not helping at all (because he knows it won't work). the Spectre says Only Vengeance, Hal switches to vengeance at that time and The Spectre easily separates all 3 of them from each other....


6) Hal does this and weakens Parallax's connection to Hal's soul so much that Spectre's lesser power finally seals the deal (ehhhh???)
The Spectre easily got rid of Parallax when Hal switched to vengeance. How can you say "Spectre's lesser power"????

Have you not read the part that I told you to read 3-4 times now???? When they are all separated from each other Hal demands The Spectre to destroy Parallax. Hal KNOWS The Spectre can destroy it when its not connected with him. Parallax didn't even dare fight The Spectre when he was right NEXT TO HIM!!!! After The Spectre leaves Parallax tells Ganthet that he has no hands (Spectre/Hal) holding him in place.
Juntai on this board has even said in the Spectre series with Hal, Hal says The Guardians power is nothing to The Spectre's power, they are like candles and he is like a sun.

Also about the part with Shazam the Wizard. While they are both talking before the fight, Shazam is trying to figure out what is going on with The Spectre, The Spectre gets pissed and says "Do you think to understand me??? Can you actually imagine I'd Look for wisdom in the insipid babble of a Child?? Though you affect the aspect of a frail old man, all you years compared to mine are hardly more than a life span of a mayfly." Nobody knows what is really going on right now with The Spectre but The Spectre himself.

You say Shazam had The Spectre beat???/ No he didn't, Shazam even thinks The Spectre is drained of power which is not true. The Spectre slowly gets up like a monster and says "No Power?" Ignorant backworld conjurer, I AM Power" "I am the undying Spirit of Vengeance. I'll exist as long as there's a need for dark judgement and divine retribution." "And I can't be permanently drained of power until all magic is gone." The Spectre didn't have to take magic from Shazam/his fortress and anything else that is owned by Shazam, he could have taken it from anywhere he wanted!!! The main reason he was taking using Shazams power on himself was because he was showing off to Shazam how powerful he (The Spectre) really is (which is very very powerful).

Go back and reread GL Rebirth another 10+ times to really understand what is going on. Do the same in DOV reread it another 10+ times because you seem you are almost there but just not there yet.

Originally posted by kevdude
The Spectre realised that redemption could not get rid of Parallax without Hal switching to vengeance. when Hal was halfway getting rid of Parallax, The Spectre is not helping at all (because he knows it won't work). the Spectre says Only Vengeance, Hal switches to vengeance at that time and The Spectre easily separates all 3 of them from each other....This is dead wrong. And I'll tell you why. Spectre never realized, "That redemption could not get rid of Parallax." He never used redemption in the first place, he isn't the Spectre of Redemption. If you read Spectre's statement again, he's been trying to burn out Parallax with vengeance and nothing else. So your very first sentence is incorrect.

Lastly, Hal never switches to vengeance. Spectre's quote of vengeance right before the seperation, is Spectre's misguided attempts to use vengeance against Parallax. Hal actually chastizes Spectre for focusing on vengeance solely. Hal knows its not about vengeance and he's yelling at Spectre to recognize that vengeance doesn't mean squat against Parallax. Now what pure indisputable fact supports this? The pure fact that Spectre could not seperate Hal from Parallax with vengeance the entire time they were together.

The way you state it, is that only because Hal switches to vengeance at the behest of the Spectre are they able to seperate from Parallax. On its face you cannot hope to reconcile it with two indisputable facts. Those two facts are 1) The most powerful form of vengeance is the Spectre. 2) Spectre could not seperate the two the entire time.

He recognized the fear and fought against it. Call it courage if anything. Why would Hal switching to vengeance even make a difference if that's what it was? What more vengeance do you need than the Spectre burning you with vengeance from within? And yet, from the Spectre's own mouth, the power of vengeance was completely useless the whole time the three were together.

Originally posted by kevdude
I agree The Spectre underestimated Parallax, but Parallax underestimated The Spectre/Hal more.

"He asks Hal to fight Parallax in the one way Spectre can't. He reveals to Hal, the truth"
That is true but its only because his host is wanting redemption not vengeance. The Spectre realised that redemption could not get rid of Parallax without Hal switching to vengeance. when Hal was halfway getting rid of Parallax, The Spectre is not helping at all (because he knows it won't work). the Spectre says Only Vengeance, Hal switches to vengeance at that time and The Spectre easily separates all 3 of them from each other....


6) Hal does this and weakens Parallax's connection to Hal's soul so much that Spectre's lesser power finally seals the deal (ehhhh???)
The Spectre easily got rid of Parallax when Hal switched to vengeance. How can you say "Spectre's lesser power"????

Have you not read the part that I told you to read 3-4 times now???? When they are all separated from each other Hal demands The Spectre to destroy Parallax. Hal KNOWS The Spectre can destroy it when its not connected with him. Parallax didn't even dare fight The Spectre when he was right NEXT TO HIM!!!! After The Spectre leaves Parallax tells Ganthet that he has no hands (Spectre/Hal) holding him in place.
Juntai on this board has even said in the Spectre series with Hal, Hal says The Guardians power is nothing to The Spectre's power, they are like candles and he is like a sun.

Also about the part with Shazam the Wizard. While they are both talking before the fight, Shazam is trying to figure out what is going on with The Spectre, The Spectre gets pissed and says "Do you think to understand me??? Can you actually imagine I'd Look for wisdom in the insipid babble of a Child?? Though you affect the aspect of a frail old man, all you years compared to mine are hardly more than a life span of a mayfly." Nobody knows what is really going on right now with The Spectre but The Spectre himself.

You say Shazam had The Spectre beat???/ No he didn't, Shazam even thinks The Spectre is drained of power which is not true. The Spectre slowly gets up like a monster and says "No Power?" Ignorant backworld conjurer, I AM Power" "I am the undying Spirit of Vengeance. I'll exist as long as there's a need for dark judgement and divine retribution." "And I can't be permanently drained of power until all magic is gone." The Spectre didn't have to take magic from Shazam/his fortress and anything else that is owned by Shazam, he could have taken it from anywhere he wanted!!! The main reason he was taking using Shazams power on himself was because he was showing off to Shazam how powerful he (The Spectre) really is (which is very very powerful).

Go back and reread GL Rebirth another 10+ times to really understand what is going on. Do the same in DOV reread it another 10+ times because you seem you are almost there but just not there yet.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You're right in one sense, the Spectre is an angel who repented for his sins. But the purpose of the Spectre was to replace Eclipso, who was God's original avatar. It was John Ostrander (the main writer responsible for modern-age Spectre) who wrote this: Eclipso was an avatar that carried out revenge, as opposed to the Spectre, a pure avatar of vengeance, which is more in line with God's will. He figured this out in Volume 3, issue 60, that ages ago, he was an angel who battled against heaven, then reptented. Then Micheal, with The Word, gave "justice", in that his entire being, beside his form, would no longer exist, and that his shell would be filled with the Wrath of God instead. He agreed, hoping that God would let him keep an iota of his being, but God denied him, and he became the wrath. So is the question.. how could God's wrath, have a purpose of fullfilling justice, when he was never shown any to begin with.

Then in issue 4 of Volume 4, Hal's series.
He saw past the Wrath, and found The Logoz.
A piece of God itself, rather than just "The Wrath.".


In Legends of the DCU, Spectre, that kicked off before Hal's series did, right after Day of Judgment. He compared the power of OA as a flickering candle next to an exploding sun. And that was BEFORE he realised the true power of the Spectre, after finding the Logoz.
Because The Wrath itself was limiting him, so that he did not go crazy and try to recreate the universe in his image, and with Spectre's power, he would have been unstoppable.

This is all well documented.

Originally posted by Juntai
In Legends of the DCU, Spectre, that kicked off before Hal's series did, right after Day of Judgment. He compared the power of OA as a flickering candle next to an exploding sun. And that was BEFORE he realised the true power of the Spectre, after finding the Logoz.
Because The Wrath itself was limiting him, so that he did not go crazy and try to recreate the universe in his image, and with Spectre's power, he would have been unstoppable. 'Zero Hour' and 'Green Lantern: Rebirth' and hell, even 'Day of Vengeance' shows 3 things:

1) During 'Zero Hour,' Parallax was able to oppose Spectre.
2) During 'Rebirth,' Spectre admitted his power was worthless against Parallax.
3) During 'Day of Vengeance,' Spectre admitted to Eclipso that he was almost destroyed by Shadowpact and Capt. Marvel. He was again weakened to such a degree that he was forced to steal Shazam's magic and turn it against him to win.

How do you reconcile his vast omnipotence with these occurences? If that analogy is correctly read as Spectre's power of vengeance is an exploding sun next to Power of Guardians, then he would have no problem with any of the above conflicts. Yet he did, and that all supports this reconciliation:

Power of Oa (same thing as Power of the Guardians) is a flickering candle as compared to God. Spectre was referencing the ultimate source of his power, and not the power of vengeance itself. Just ask yourself this question: if everything you say is true, since the Power of the Guardians has the capability of remaking the universe then Spectre also can remake the universe, more easily. Why doesn't he just blink out all of magic? Why can he be weakened to such a degree by any magic for that matter? Reason: Spectre is not as powerful as you think.

Or, more drastically, since 'Rebirth,' Spectre has lost access to a vast amount of his powers, which would end up supporting my conclusions.

JUNTAI I LOVE YOU MAN !!!!.................. not in a gay way !!!

Originally posted by kevdude
You say Shazam had The Spectre beat???/ No he didn't, Shazam even thinks The Spectre is drained of power which is not true. The Spectre slowly gets up like a monster and says "No Power?" Ignorant backworld conjurer, I AM Power" "I am the undying Spirit of Vengeance. I'll exist as long as there's a need for dark judgement and divine retribution." "And I can't be permanently drained of power until all magic is gone." The Spectre didn't have to take magic from Shazam/his fortress and anything else that is owned by Shazam, he could have taken it from anywhere he wanted!!! The main reason he was taking using Shazams power on himself was because he was showing off to Shazam how powerful he (The Spectre) really is (which is very very powerful). You said it yourself in the underlined sentence. He took it from somewhere else. His own power at that point wasn't enough because it was drained in all his fights. The ability to drain magic is not the same as having enough power to defeat magic. Its like saying that Dr. Doom's feat of absorbing Surfer's Power Cosmic means that Dr. Doom is greater than the Power Cosmic. That's ridiculous and everyone knows it.

This is the point. If you're saying that Spectre is like an exploding sun when compared to a fundamental aspect of the Source itself, then how could any magician, no matter how many there are, even begin to drain him of power as happened twice in 'Day of Vengeance?'

Let me cut you off before you try to reason it by saying that there were thousands of magicians who did it, because that would be a bad move on your part. If you say this was the reason, then that could easily lead into the assumption that thousands of Green Lanterns wielding the Power of the Guardians could also weaken Spectre. If you think this is right, then you just proved my own point for me, Power of Guardians > Spectre.

Dude, kevdude said that and said that Spectres power was GREATER THAN SHAZAMS, and if you think the Guardians are trying to drain the Spectre, they COULD, but the Spectre would KILL THEM !!!

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
'Zero Hour' and 'Green Lantern: Rebirth' and hell, even 'Day of Vengeance' shows 3 things:

1) During 'Zero Hour,' Parallax was able to oppose Spectre.
2) During 'Rebirth,' Spectre admitted his power was worthless against Parallax.
3) During 'Day of Vengeance,' Spectre admitted to Eclipso that he was almost destroyed by Shadowpact and Capt. Marvel. He was again weakened to such a degree that he was forced to steal Shazam's magic and turn it against him to win.

How do you reconcile his vast omnipotence with these occurences? If that analogy is correctly read as Spectre's power of vengeance is an exploding sun next to Power of Guardians, then he would have no problem with any of the above conflicts. Yet he did, and that all supports this reconciliation:

Power of Oa (same thing as Power of the Guardians) is a flickering candle as compared to God. Spectre was referencing the ultimate source of his power, and not the power of vengeance itself. Just ask yourself this question: if everything you say is true, since the Power of the Guardians has the capability of remaking the universe then Spectre also can remake the universe, more easily. Why doesn't he just blink out all of magic? Why can he be weakened to such a degree by any magic for that matter? Reason: Spectre is not as powerful as you think.

Or, more drastically, since 'Rebirth,' Spectre has lost access to a vast amount of his powers, which would end up supporting my conclusions. Your intepretation and what actually happened are very different things however, Spectre defeated the Shadowpact, and Spectre defeated Hal as well, the fight drained Hal dry, Kyle even noted it when Ollie was about to shoot him in the chest. Go read it again. "Hal's distracted and his power is almost gone, this is our chance!" In Crisis on Infinite Earths, Spectre destroyed and recreated the multiverse into the DCUniverse.. While fighting and banishing the Anti-Monitor no less. Even as a rookie, Corrigan, with the power of Spectre, slayed Elder Gods. Check out his Year One issue, when he dealt with Kolgoth Shugoth.

If you read the teasers for the upcoming Infintie Crisis issues, the heros eventually have to give in and beg Spectre to help them. lol.

Ok I'll give u 2 instances to think about where it shows in Rebirth that Ganthet is not as powerful as Spectre.

When Hal finally switched to Vengeance (and he did i'll get to that later) it was Spectre being shown that delivered the ultimate removal of Parallax from both of them (even though u kinda ignore that for some reason) !!! After The Spectre removed Parallax he was standing tall acting like he didn't even care what was going on with the Parallax fight that was going on in front of him. Hell Parallax was right in front of The Spectre when they was split apart and Parallax never even dared to fight Spectre when The Spectre was right in FRONT OF HIM!!! Also The Spectre looked as if he was completely healthy and fine after removing Parallax from Hal and himself.

About Hal switching to Vengeance now. All the time Hal was the Spectre's Host he was wanting Redemption right??? right. He never wanted to destroy anything seeing as though it wasn't what he wanted to do. The Spectre was wearing Hal down to the point Hal would eventually give up his Redemption idea and go to Vengeance giving The Spectre the power to remove Parallax from Hal himself. When Parallax was finally removed from Hal/Spectre what did he tell The Spectre to do with Parallax???? He DEMANDED The Spectre to destroy Parallax, The Spectre then told him he was leaving and not to demand something from The Spectre because he wasn't like his GL ring. Hal KNEW Spectre could destroy Parallax.

Another point to be made. When The Spectre/Hal removed Parallax from themselves, The Spectre was standing there as if he was totally healthy and fine. When the 5 other GL's and Ganthet removed Parallax from Ganthet, he was worn out. He looked like he went through hell and back just trying to removed Parallax from himself. If he (Ganthet) was soooooooooo powerful why would have he needed 5 GL's help?? hes not as powerful as u lead yourself to think.

2nd thing that shows Ganthet not as powerful as The Spectre. Ganthet HIMSELF even says The Spectre > Ganthet. "Even the POWER of The Spectre dwarfs the Guardians". That is what he really means. When Parallax says "you said The Spectre was nothing compared to your power guardian" that is Parallax's mistake not Ganthet's.

You are putting the Guardians up to The Spectre, The Word, and Archangel Michael. Yes hes powerful but not that powerful.

These are just a few instances where it shows The Spectre > the Guardians. Keep rereading DOV/Rebirth. I don't really want to write down all of DOV/Rebirth on here to show you how DC really means it. It would be a lot more fun reading it yourself and understanding it.

Day of Judgement also had Spectre turning off Ganthet's power, along with the rest of the Quintessence, after freezing hell over.

Originally posted by Juntai
Day of Judgement also had Spectre turning off Ganthet's power, along with the rest of the Quintessence, after freezing hell over. Really? Can you post what context this happened?

Originally posted by kevdude
About Hal switching to Vengeance now. All the time Hal was the Spectre's Host he was wanting Redemption right??? right. He never wanted to destroy anything seeing as though it wasn't what he wanted to do. The Spectre was wearing Hal down to the point Hal would eventually give up his Redemption idea and go to Vengeance giving The Spectre the power to remove Parallax from Hal himself. When Parallax was finally removed from Hal/Spectre what did he tell The Spectre to do with Parallax???? He DEMANDED The Spectre to destroy Parallax, The Spectre then told him he was leaving and not to demand something from The Spectre because he wasn't like his GL ring. Hal KNEW Spectre could destroy Parallax.

Another point to be made. When The Spectre/Hal removed Parallax from themselves, The Spectre was standing there as if he was totally healthy and fine. When the 5 other GL's and Ganthet removed Parallax from Ganthet, he was worn out. He looked like he went through hell and back just trying to removed Parallax from himself. If he (Ganthet) was soooooooooo powerful why would have he needed 5 GL's help?? hes not as powerful as u lead yourself to think.

2nd thing that shows Ganthet not as powerful as The Spectre. Ganthet HIMSELF even says The Spectre > Ganthet. "Even the POWER of The Spectre dwarfs the Guardians". That is what he really means. When Parallax says "you said The Spectre was nothing compared to your power guardian" that is Parallax's mistake not Ganthet's.

You are putting the Guardians up to The Spectre, The Word, and Archangel Michael. Yes hes powerful but not that powerful. I do believe that Hal was seeking redemption while all three were connected. Even before Spectre connected to Hal, at the end of 'Emerald Twilight,' he sacrificed himself to reignite the sun and undo all teh damage of the Suneater. However, Hal's ultimate salvation from the influence of Parallax was not vengeance. I'll give you several reasons why. The first is this: 1) When Hal advises the other GL's, he doesn't advise them to use vengeance against Parallax. He advises them to recognize fear and fight it on that level. He even states this to John after 'Rebirth' in the ongoing series. I think this speaks for itself in volumes. 2) Hal's search for redemption never led him anywhere because it wasn't what Hal was supposed to be doing. You see him make comments about how there's no more soul-searching, no more cries of vengeance (after he is revived), about how who he is and what he's doing with the Spectre doesn't feel right (early issues of 'Rebirth'), that none of what happened is ultimately doing anything in the picture below. That is why I'm saying that redemption and vengeance were useless and ultimately distracting him from the real solution. 3) Hal begins using dismissive language towards the Spectre when he is struggling with Parallax. Now, this is up to interpretation, so it isn't something I'm going to nitpick. 4) The fact that Parallax isn't removed by Spectre's own burning vengeance when he is connected to Hallax. Hal's switch to vengeance was the ultimate solution? What more vengeance than the SPECTRE do you need, I again ask to you?

Ultimately, these proofs I offer lead to the one essential idea, which was the theme of the whole story of 'Rebirth.' Redemption and vengeance were paths that Hal tried walking down but never got anywhere with. The entire time he was Spectrehallax, he knew something wasn't right. He says this. He knew all the things he was doing weren't getting him anywhere. And thus, he had to throw away all his ideas about redemption (obviously, because he was never ultimately responsible for his actions as Hallax) and throw away the ideas about vengeance (because you can't fight Parallax with vengeance, you have to recognize and overcome great fear). Fear was Parallax's hold on Hal's soul. It is what allowed him to twist Hal around to do his own bidding. When Hal's greatest fear of watching his dad die in a crash was something he could conquer, Parallax's grip loosened. He couldn't hold onto a man who has come to terms with and overcome his own greatest fear. This idea of fear and overcoming it, were echoed throughout 'Rebirth' and throughout the entire GL legend. You see now how this switch in themes works. You're getting back to the basics and essentials of what makes GL Hal work. He overcomes great fear with pure willpower. The ultimate victory is not one of redemption nor of vengeance. And the themes of redemption of vengeance never survive the series. GL #1 is all about a hero facing fear on different levels. On a societal level (is fear what rules society in the wake of terrorism and destruction?) and on a purely physically dangerous level (when Hal jumps out a burning jet to recharge his depleted ring by catching the Manhunter, ALL IN MID-AIR!).

It sounds a bit lame to whitewash everything, and even Hal struggles with the idea that everything was Parallax's fault n the first place, but he accepts it. That is his ultimate victory, facing fear and conquering it. He doesn't redeem himself, and then proceeds to cast vengeance on Parallax to win. He ignores all of that and embraces the fear, conquers it and pushes past it. Without fear, Parallax is powerless and the yellow spectrum weakness is overcome. This entire analysis is quite possibly my biggest disagreement with you as to the interpretation of the storyline. Forget Ganthet vs. Spectre. The writers didn't comment or base the storyline around our argument. But they did base the entire storyline on Rebirth, a new beginning. A new beginning free from the god awful issues of redemption and vengeance that continued to restrict Hal's character. When you continue to focus on Hal's focus on vengeance and switch to vengeance as his ultimate salvation from Parallax's influence, it just does NOT make sense to me. This wasn't 'Green Lantern: Vengeance,' and this interpretation of yours seems waaay off point.

Now, moving onto your next comment, that is interesting that Ganthet seemed so weak after the seperation as opposed to Hal and Parallax. But I can explain it away without much issue. We know Ganthet is more powerful than Hal. Hal wasn't tired after being seperated. Does that mean Hal's soul is stronger than Ganthet? Obviously not. So your argument leads us nowhere. Secondly, the means of seperation were different. Parallax was forcibly seperated from the outside by continual barrages of attacks by GL's which hurt Ganthet as well and ultimately concluded with his being bottled up in the Lantern on Oa which Ganthet himself most likely had a hand in. Whereas Hal just fought fear, making Parallax's grip onto his soul weak. Two completely different methods of seperation and ultimately, your logic would support that Hal is stronger than Ganthet. So interesting observation, but easily explained.

Also, I will not get into this editorial typo argument again. We both talked about this over several posts. To put the issue at rest, I will refrain from using those statements to support my argument and so will you. No matter how often we post other people's thoughts on it, it is ambiguous at best. The lowdown is this, one character directly quotes another, but the comparison is reversed. Which comparison was the right one? The first one, or the quote? Ambiguous. We'll both stay away from that. I have attempted e-mailing Geoff Johns' webpage but received no e-mails in reply. We'll never know.

Finally, I am not putting Ganthet above anybody other than the Spectre. I do not have much information on Archangels and such, but my understanding of the Word is not in conflict with my view. I don't think Ganthet is more powerful than the Word. And I don't think this undoes anything I assert. I also fail to see the inherent problem with Ganthet's control over the Power of the Guardians as being sufficiently powerful to overshadow an avatar of vengeance, even if he is God's chosen avatar. Eclipso used to be God's chosen avatar of revenge. It didn't make that entity more powerful than the Quintessence. So past Juntai's postings, (I'll argue those seperately) tell me what would be fundamentally wrong with the DC universe, if the Power of the Guardians was a greater power than Spectre's burning power of vengeance? Lets argue now on a theoretical basis as we have butted heads endlessly on storyline interpretations and seem to be getting nowhere.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Ganthet vs Spectre

Alright, boys and toys. Unbeknowest to most in this vs forum, a raging debate has been forming in one particular vs thread. This debate is the above subject. It started because eleveninches started a 'Ganthet vs White Crown Phoenix' thread. Several opinions abounded, but one particular off-the-topic debate literally took over the thread. After several replies, the thread opener commented that, "Ganthet is more powerful than the Spectre" to which some replied, "Garbage!" That is how this started.

I have been the sole proponent for one side of this debate and now, since I have been unable to convince my opponents and I am honestly beginning to think they are partly ignoring my premises, I leave it to you other posters who may not have had a chance to weigh in on this topic with your own opinions. Thus, for your benefit, I have decided to repost every reply, rebuttal and whatnot directly pertaining to this debate in its entirety so that you may judge. It is basically Juntai and kevdude who believe 'Spectre > Ganthet' and I, OneDumbG0, who believes 'Ganthet > Spectre.'

Keep in mind, this is not the only forum to debate this topic. Right now, several other forums which I have googled are hotly debating this topic as well. The main points of reference are 'Green lantern: Rebirth' and 'Day of Vengeance.' So it is important for people to have read these. Please be patient with me as I upload every response individually and wait for my signal to begin a NEW round of debating. Thank you for your patience!

The real point is, your arguement of Ganthet being more powerful is weak, when he's never been shown to be more powerful at all. It's all grounded is offhand remarks and speculation. He DOES NOT have the feats to back this claim. Spectre on the other hand, has these feats of awesome power. One of them even includes him turning off Ganthet's powers.

Isn't that what Hal did??? He realized how to fight Parallax using Vengeance. Part of using Vengeance is Fighting and Facing Fear, Face To Face not running away from it. After Spectre realised he couldn't burn out Parallax out of Hal he knew he had to get Hal to switch to Vengeance. Hal is the Host to both Spectre/Parallax. The Spectre just can't remove Parallax from Hal when Hal doesn't even know whats going on, its a joint effort on them both. Alone The Spectre wouldn't even need to have any help at all fighting Parallax....

Originally posted by Juntai
The real point is, your arguement of Ganthet being more powerful is weak, when he's never been shown to be more powerful at all. It's all grounded is offhand remarks and speculation. He DOES NOT have the feats to back this claim. Spectre on the other hand, has these feats of awesome power. One of them even includes him turning off Ganthet's powers. I'd like to know the context. I don't think my arguments are weak since i've backed them up. Several facts for you to chew on:

1) The Power of the Guardians was sufficient to disposses Parallax of his control of a great portion of the universe near the beginning of time. Spectre though, couldn't even seperate Parallax from one soul on his own.

2) The Power of the Guardians is a limitless fundamental aspect of the Source. Spectre is an avatar of vengeance powered by magic. Apparently his magic is not limitless and he has been forced to pull magic from elsewhere in his battles like in 'Day of Vengeance.'

3) You may dispute #2, but he did this also in 'Crisis on Infinite Earths.' He had to have his own powers enforced with all the mages he could find including the Phantom Stranger in the lead up battle to the conclusion. Before even that, Spectre admitted his power was worthless in the anti-matter universe since he is a magical being by the way, fyi.

4) The Power of the Guardians has been shown to be powerful enough to remake the universe in Zero Hour.

5) Krona, a fellow Oan of Ganthet (or fellow Malthusan based on your nitpickiness), was basically responsible for creating the anti-matter universe and the Anti-Monitor himself. The resolution of 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' all revolved around the actions of an Oan. You point to a spoiler that shows Spectre has big rumblings in the coming Infinite Crisis, but do not forget what role the Guardians will play.

Originally posted by kevdude
Isn't that what Hal did??? He realized how to fight Parallax using Vengeance. Part of using Vengeance is Fighting and Facing Fear, Face To Face not running away from it. After Spectre realised he couldn't burn out Parallax out of Hal he knew he had to get Hal to switch to Vengeance. Hal is the Host to both Spectre/Parallax. The Spectre just can't remove Parallax from Hal when Hal doesn't even know whats going on, its a joint effort on them both. Alone The Spectre wouldn't even need to have any help at all fighting Parallax.... No. I don't know how you could equate the two. From now on, I'll call what Hal utilized: courage. I don't like calling it courage, but its the simplest word I can think of. My "idea" of courage that freed him is "Facing your greatest fear and overcoming it." Here, Hal was being possessed by a cosmic entity of living fear. It worked his fears on him. So what he did was remembered his greatest fear, his dad's death. Once he embraced that and conquered that, the fear that Parallax held on him meant nothing.

This idea is supported by Hal's flashbacks and conversations with his ex-girlfriend about how watching his father die was his worst fear. He flashbacks to it when he explains to the other GL's how to bypass Parallax's powers. So, from now on, I'll call it courage.

Now, I don't see how you could equate that courage with vengeance. In any respect, whether its revenge or avenging or retribution... what does that have to do with Hal's greatest fear? Hal didn't avenge his father's accident, he didn't deal out retribution on anybody.

On the other hand, we all know that Spectre tried fighting Parallax with vengeance. He says it himself below, "I had hoped... to cast vengeance upon it (Parallax) for all the death and fear it spread throughout God's universe." Obviously he failed. At that point, I think it should be obvious to the reader, at least to Hal, that you cannot fight fear with vengeance. Even Spectre couldn't judge Parallax. This is explicit in the storyline because Parallax was gaining in strength the whole time all three were connected together. These are the reasons why I believe that any of your ideas stemming from Hal switching to vengeance are incorrect. I think its a stretch and contradicts several important flashbacks, actions and conversations which are not as ambiguous as the 'Ganthet vs. Spectre garbage.'

Again, ask yourself this question, does what I state, make sense? Here, we have a story of a hero overcoming great fear. He recognizes his greatest fear and fights against a cosmic entity of living fear that threatens the universe. It all comes back to what makes a Green Lantern a Green Lantern and why Hal is the greatest Green Lantern. Abin Sur himself said in the famous origin that "You will overcome great fear." Everything comes back to a beginning, or as aptly titled 'Rebirth.' If this was all about redemption, then 'Emerald Twilight' would have been the end of it. If this was all about vengeance, Hal as the Spectre would have been the final chapter. But its about neither, its about the courage of a hero. Its a simple poetry and quite thematic at times and Geoff Johns pulled it off very well. I hope that I've convinced you that this reading of the story is the most consistent.

Now, what is the importance of this in our argument? It presents a fundamental coloring of opinion on just how powerful Spectre was with regards to Parallax. I think he was utterly useless and Hal did most of the work. You think Spectre did most of the work and was shown to be stronger than Parallax.

You've now examined my reading of the themes inherent in 'Rebirth,' and perhaps now you can see why I think Spectre was worthless and powerless against Parallax. Again, his limitations as an avatar of vengeance limited his role in the entire storyline. He couldn't cast vengeance and judgement on Parallax. He even states how he has failed. Now, the Guardians have fought Parallax before as Kyle had told Ollie. Towards the beginning of the universe, Parallax had nearly infected the entire universe with fear and had grown tremendously powerful. It was the Guardians who beat him definitively and sealed him for so long. The Guardians harnessed the Power of the Guardians. So do you see the comparison? Spectre was nothing as compared to the Power of the Guardians. Just the mere reading of the history of Parallax points to this.

Your reading is that Spectre did most of the work. I think this is incorrect. The first inconsistency is, why did Spectre fail before Hal started taking things into his own hands? What was the point of Hal recognizing his greatest fear if he only needed to think about vengeance to beat Parallax? Why didn't Hal use vengeance to fight Parallax in the climax along with the other GL's? I think the answers to these questions defeat your interpretation of 'Rebirth.'

But even if I move past this, all your questions about Hal asking Spectre to destroy Parallax can be explained. Parallax's powerbase was inside Hal and Spectre. He harnessed their powers and was being fed by the fear of the heroes. However, once Hal seperated everybody (with a lil nudge by the Spectre), Parallax had no base and nothing to hold onto. So I agree that Spectre MIGHT have been able to destroy him at that point and this admission does nothing to undo my logic. In fact, I think it strengthens it.

And it all adds up to the climax that I have been espousing which supports my contention that Ganthet > Spectre. Parallax was basically beaten, but he infected Ganthet and that allowed him to resurrect himself in an even more powerful form then he was in as Spectrehallax. He was now Ganthellax. Hence, the heightening sense of danger at the climax, the artist's renditions of an enormously huge Ganthellax making the heroes look tiny, Ganthellax being able to infect the entire world so quickly with fear. It all escalates. If you want just a pure illustration, look at the posted picture below. The top part is what Spectrehallax looks like, the bottom part is what Ganthellax looks like. See the huge difference?

Most importantly, that escalation is supported by a heightened sense of crisis which is based on the heightened stakes and powers. Your theory when applied to the climax makes the story go backwards and I don't think it holds up as a climax. I also do not believe it holds up as the general theme that makes Hal great. Hal turns to vengeance to win? What kind of story is that? Hal overcomes great fear as Abin Sur first prophesized in Hal's origin as GL? Now that sounds like a return to the triumph of Hal as GL, now that sounds like a 'Rebirth.'

My question to you is, if my reading of the story is right, isn't it logical that "Ganthet w/ Power of the Guardians > Spectre" is supported by 1) Spectre's admitted ineffectiveness as opposed to the Guardians who punked Parallax once already, 2) the heightened climax at the end that makes Spectrehallax look weak compared to Ganthellax, and 3) just in keeping with the themes of the storyline of overcoming great fear and coming back to a new beginning?

Originally posted by Juntai
Your intepretation and what actually happened are very different things however, Spectre defeated the Shadowpact, and Spectre defeated Hal as well, the fight drained Hal dry, Kyle even noted it when Ollie was about to shoot him in the chest. Go read it again. "Hal's distracted and his power is almost gone, this is our chance!" In Crisis on Infinite Earths, Spectre destroyed and recreated the multiverse into the DCUniverse.. While fighting and banishing the Anti-Monitor no less. Even as a rookie, Corrigan, with the power of Spectre, slayed Elder Gods. Check out his Year One issue, when he dealt with Kolgoth Shugoth. Oh yeah, about this also. I think you need to reread 'Crisis on Infinite Earths.' Spectre never banished Anti-Monitor by himself. That is just a complete misread of what happened. When Anti-Monitor went back in #10 of 'Crisis on Infinite Earths,' the Spectre did indeed engage him. But the Spectre was being fed by the most powerful sorcerers available at the time. So you can hardly call it Spectre going mano-y-mano against the Anti-Monitor. Secondly, he did not banish the Anti-Monitor. He came back in the very next issue and threatened everybody again. I don't know how you confused that. In the conclusion it was the combined might of the heroes, specifically, Alexander Luthor, Superman-2 + (Barry Allen's Speedforce if you read epilogues) and Darkseid that ultimately did the Anti-Monitor in. Spectre was punked throughout this entire fight. I also am not sure how you interpreted that Spectre himself reconstructed the universe. I will get a trade paperback, since I read it a while ago, but even in summaries like this great one...

http://www.monitorduty.com/mdarchives/2005/10/alan_kistlers_g_2.shtml

... nothing is mentioned of Spectre doing anything consciously of his own power to ensure that the universe was constructed in the way it was. I mean, his big fight was to beat the Anti-Monitor and prevent further destruction, not to create a new universe. And he clearly did not beat the Anti-Monitor. He also failed in preventing the destruction of the other universes. The big ghost got an "F" in my opinion. If anything, the Anti-Monitor was responsible for destroying the multiverse and the ensuing struggle was responsible for the single DCuniverse. At the end, the Anti-Monitor came back to finish the job with one single universe, but was stopped by the heroes, not the Spectre. I'm interested to hear your interpretation of 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' to be honest because I think you give the Spectre waaay too much credit.

He does over come great fear but that was after The Spectre gets Hal to switch to Vengeance allowing Hal to have a chance to overcome great fear. In that picture it shows The Spectre talking to Hal about everything that has been going on with Hal and himself. Right before Spectre got interrupted by Parallax showing himself, Spectre says what after Gods Universe?? "And to Free you Soul arghh!" We never get to hear what Spectre was going to say there but by how he was acting and talking he was showing Hal how to fight Parallax. Parallax then interrupted him before he was done talking to Hal!!

When Hal finally switched to Vengeance and Parallax was removed from him he was on his way to Heaven when Ganthet tried to stop him, saying to Hal "follow my light" Hal then replied "Not Again I wont". This then led to Abin talking to Hal about Hal overcoming great fear. His father even appeared and told him to go back.. Hal never overcame great fear when he was separated by The Spectre. The Spectre finally was able to remove Parallax from Hal because Hal needed to know about Parallax being in him so Spectre could remove it from Hal. If Hal never found out about Parallax being in him and Spectre still continuing to try to burn out Parallax it wouldn't work see???? He needs Hal's help because it is Hal keeping Parallax connected with him.

How can you say Hal separated Parallax from himself and Spectre only helped with a little nudge?? That is completely wrong. It shows The Spectre literally forcing both of them out of all 3 of them while Parallax just falls away.

About Crisis on Infinite Earths. Who was the main being everyone wanted to fight the Anti-Monitor?? The Spectre. Where was The Guardians at?? If there power was so powerful why did everyone want The Spectre to help them fight?? Is Magic more powerful then The Guardians power?? Can anyone say The Anti-Monitor wouldn't have won if The Spectre was not there to slow him down and they both beat the living hell out of each other??? Even Darksied knew if he didn't act at that point to get rid of the Anti-Monitor, that would be the last chance everyone had. The chances of the universe being saved isn't realistic if Spectre was not there helping the heroes out.

In DOV when Captian Marvel was at the Rock of Eternity he says to the Spectre to stay away from him. These hits are having no effect at ALL on Spectre. Spectre says "SHAZAM" and CM is turned back into Billy. Billy is amazed at what Spectre just did and Spectre says "i can have any powers i want to child" and makes CM fall asleep.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Oh yeah, about this also. I think you need to reread 'Crisis on Infinite Earths.' Spectre never banished Anti-Monitor by himself. That is just a complete misread of what happened. When Anti-Monitor went back in #10 of 'Crisis on Infinite Earths,' the Spectre did indeed engage him. But the Spectre was being fed by the most powerful sorcerers available at the time. So you can hardly call it Spectre going mano-y-mano against the Anti-Monitor. Secondly, he did not banish the Anti-Monitor. He came back in the very next issue and threatened everybody again. I don't know how you confused that. In the conclusion it was the combined might of the heroes, specifically, Alexander Luthor, Superman-2 + (Barry Allen's Speedforce if you read epilogues) and Darkseid that ultimately did the Anti-Monitor in. Spectre was punked throughout this entire fight. I also am not sure how you interpreted that Spectre himself reconstructed the universe. I will get a trade paperback, since I read it a while ago, but even in summaries like this great one...

http://www.monitorduty.com/mdarchives/2005/10/alan_kistlers_g_2.shtml

... nothing is mentioned of Spectre doing anything consciously of his own power to ensure that the universe was constructed in the way it was. I mean, his big fight was to beat the Anti-Monitor and prevent further destruction, not to create a new universe. And he clearly did not beat the Anti-Monitor. He also failed in preventing the destruction of the other universes. The big ghost got an "F" in my opinion. If anything, the Anti-Monitor was responsible for destroying the multiverse and the ensuing struggle was responsible for the single DCuniverse. At the end, the Anti-Monitor came back to finish the job with one single universe, but was stopped by the heroes, not the Spectre. I'm interested to hear your interpretation of 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' to be honest because I think you give the Spectre waaay too much credit.

You're the one that needs to read it, dude. I have it.

He sent the Anti-Monitor back to his own universe. You're trying to twist the events again. In the next issue, when they engage him again, it's back in the anti-matter realm. Spectre banished him. Spectre was yelling"more power more power", then he shattered the universe and it was recreated as one. It's quite easy to see.

He also recreated the universe at the end of the Emperor Joker series.


During Final Night, he single handedly kept the Earth alive by sharing a piece of his power with Gaia.


I'm telling you. Spectre has the feats, Ganthet does not.
That pretty much proves this story, no matter how much bashing on him you try to do.

Originally posted by Juntai
You're the one that needs to read it, dude. I have it.

He sent the Anti-Monitor back to his own universe. You're trying to twist the events again. In the next issue, when they engage him again, it's back in the anti-matter realm. Spectre banished him. Spectre was yelling"more power more power", then he shattered the universe and it was recreated as one. It's quite easy to see.

He also recreated the universe at the end of the Emperor Joker series.

During Final Night, he single handedly kept the Earth alive by sharing a piece of his power with Gaia.

I'm telling you. Spectre has the feats, Ganthet does not.
That pretty much proves this story, no matter how much bashing on him you try to do. Spectre shunted him into his own dimension..... and? You made it sound like Spectre ended the Crisis. He didn't. He was yelling for more power to prevent Anti-Monitor from destroying the positive matter universe at the dawn of time. As Anti-Monitor reaches for it, Spectre stops him from doing this, but I don't remember anything that pointed to the fact, that he stopped Anti-Monitor AND remade the last few universes into one. Everything just went white in my recollection as he was screaming. I don't remember any thought bubbles or narrative boxes that stated Spectre was attempting to construct the universe into one. If you have it, can you post that page I'm referencing?

The remaking of the universe into one appeared to me to be a result of the clash between Spectre and Anti-Monitor and not the ultimate result that Spectre was hoping for. I can't remember anywhere where Spectre stated his plans to merge the universes into one anywhere at all. And besides, Spectre was asking for more power from the mages. You make it sound like he did all this under his own power and completely ignored the fact that he was indeed asking for more power from other people.

You made a blanket statement with your first post that made it sound like Spectre ended the Crisis. He didn't. The combined might of the heroes did. I mean... what was the big deal about him being in the anti-matter universe anyway? He pulled the combined Earth into the antimatter universe and started threatening it again and Spectre was comatose at that point and would have been worthless even if he was awake since he has no power in the anti-matter universe.

And about the Guardians role during the Crisis, Anti-Monitor took them out of the game first in like issue #2 with a sneak attack. I don't think its fair to say, just because they were out of action means that they were as worthless as the Crime Syndicate was. I think, the fact that Anti-Monitor went after them personally from the outset says a lot of their significance and the danger they posed to Anti-Monitor. If you think being waylaid during Crisis makes you worthless, then Spectre was worthless in the final climactic battle too, compared to Alexander Luthor, Superman-2 and Darkseid, because he was comatose and would have been unable to do anythign anyway since his power doesn't work in the anti-matter universe. My point being, we don't know what the Guardians could have done, because they weren't given the chance.

I'm not bashing Spectre. But just because the Power of the Guardians didn't get a chance to take on the Anti-Monitor isn't proof against its limits. The best tests are to see how the two powers react in similar situations:

1) Destroying and remaking the universe.

The Power of the Guardians has indeed destroyed the universe and remade it, same as Spectre. So we're even on that. Just cause Spectre did it more often, isn't proof that his power is greater. I mean, the time he supposedly did it in Crisis according to you (and I'll take your word on it, even though I would like to see that last page), he still needed help to do so. But, I'll leave that alone since apparently in 'Emperor Joker,' which I have not had the pleasure to read, he did it all by his lonesome. Fine.

2) 'Final Night'

How did the Power of the Guardians do when trying to keep the Earth alive during Final Night? It reversed the damage done and even reignited the sun and absorbed the Suneater to boot. How did the Spectre do when trying to keep the Earth alive during 'Final Night?' Kept it alive... but we never got to see whether Spectre could have done the other things. So we're even on that I guess also. Because, unlike you I don't assume that Spectre couldn't, just because he didn't get a chance to.

3) Anti-matter Universe effectiveness

How is the Power of the Guardians in the Anti-Matter Universe? Just fine. Spectre's power in the Anti-Matter Universe? Worthless. One for the Power of the Guardians definitely.

4) Fighting against Parallax.

How did the Power of the Guardians do against Parallax? At the dawn of time, it beat him almost completely, even when he was at the pinnacle of his power since he held the universe in the grip of fear. How did Spectre do against Parallax? Didn't have any effect whatsoever until Hal weakened his grip by overcoming fear. One more for the Power of the Guardians.

Personally, I don't know if the Power of the Guardians has ever defeated an Elder God. I haven't read enough GL comics. But I know that Nekron, Lord of the Unliving was defeated. He was pretty powerful. He owned his own dimension and had a connection with every being that ever died in the DCUniverse. Combined with Krona, he was causing the universe to collapse on itself also until the Guardians and GL Corp stopped him. But, I don't know if Nekron is on the same level to be honest.

Other things that I thought were interesting that I learned when reading about Alan Scott's origin is that the Guardians also tried trapping all random magic throughout the universe and imprisoning it in the Starheart, so that is somewhat comparable to Spectre's assault on magic. At the very least, it shows that the Power of the Guardians can manipulate magic...

So is the Power of the Guardians' performance alongside the Spectre's performance in those similar and directly analagous situations enough to convince you otherwise? I think I outlined it pretty well.

Originally posted by kevdude
He does over come great fear but that was after The Spectre gets Hal to switch to Vengeance allowing Hal to have a chance to overcome great fear. In that picture it shows The Spectre talking to Hal about everything that has been going on with Hal and himself. Right before Spectre got interrupted by Parallax showing himself, Spectre says what after Gods Universe?? "And to Free you Soul arghh!" We never get to hear what Spectre was going to say there but by how he was acting and talking he was showing Hal how to fight Parallax. Parallax then interrupted him before he was done talking to Hal!!

When Hal finally switched to Vengeance and Parallax was removed from him he was on his way to Heaven when Ganthet tried to stop him, saying to Hal "follow my light" Hal then replied "Not Again I wont". This then led to Abin talking to Hal about Hal overcoming great fear. His father even appeared and told him to go back.. Hal never overcame great fear when he was separated by The Spectre. The Spectre finally was able to remove Parallax from Hal because Hal needed to know about Parallax being in him so Spectre could remove it from Hal. If Hal never found out about Parallax being in him and Spectre still continuing to try to burn out Parallax it wouldn't work see???? He needs Hal's help because it is Hal keeping Parallax connected with him.

How can you say Hal separated Parallax from himself and Spectre only helped with a little nudge?? That is completely wrong. It shows The Spectre literally forcing both of them out of all 3 of them while Parallax just falls away. I understand what you're saying. That Spectre's power was able to take effect because Hal switched to vengeance. But what proof do you see, other than extrapolation that directly evidences Hal's switch to vengeance or that this was Spectre's intent? I don't see any. Spectre even said his power of vengeance was worthless the whole time they were connected.

Yes, Spectre needs help. He needs Hal to loosen Parallax's grip. But Hal doesn't loosen its grip with vengeance. He embraces and moves past his greatest fear and that's how Parallax's hold onto him is weakened. I don't know how I could make it any clearer than that. If an entity of living fear grips onto your soul through fear, how do you weaken its grip?

....With vengeance? Vengeance against what, his father's death? That makes absolutely no sense.

Hal weakened his grip by embracing his greatest fear and moving past it so that fear means nothing to him anymore. How many different times can I spell this out? I mean... this idea is repeated to the other GL's when Hal plans his final assault and even in the ongoing series when he and John encounter the color yellow.

Isn't that the clearest reason why Hal is ripping out of Parallax in the pictures posted? I mean, Hal is friggin arguing with Spectre to stop babbling about vengeance and help Hal fight it. His tone of voice sounds dismissive to Spectre's comments stubbornly clinging to vengeance. And I'll tell you why, because he knows that you don't fight fear with vengeance. You fight fear by embracing your greatest fear, moving past that and not letting fear effect you. That's why I keep saying Hal did most of the work. A flash of power worked at that point because Parallax's grip on Hal's soul was rendered nearly moot at that point. To be honest, I think any flash of power would have done the job.

And besides, Hal never told Ganthet he won't follow the light again. That's COMPLETELY incorrect. I mean, he DOES end up following the light to his body. That's how he is resurrected. You don't see his soul veering to the right away from heaven and zooming towards somewhere following Ganthet's ball of light? Where do you think that somewhere is? Its zooming to his body. If anything, Hal did EXACTLY what Ganthet asks him to do, and followed Ganthet's ball of light to his body. I don't understand how you could have confused that.

And finally, I fail to see how my explanation of things isn't more coherent, more thematic and more supported by the story's actions, words and flashbacks than yours. It just works better and sounds better in every way. It's like the only thing you hate about it, is that Hal's actions meant more in the seperation than Spectre's did. But doesn't that make sense since this was Hal's return and Hal's fight? How else can I spell it out?

Hal never told Ganthet he would never follow his light again??? WHAT??? Are you reading that at all ????? Ganthet says while he is being infected by Parallax "Hal Jordan... Follow My Light...." what does Hal say to Ganthet???? "Not Again... I Won't".... HOW IN THE WORLD DO U NOT THINK THATS HAL NOT TELLING GANTHET HE ISN'T GOING TO FOLLOW HIS LIGHT AGAIN??? Who is Hal talking too for crying out loud?? Spectre?? Superman?? Guy?? No!!! hes talking to Ganthet.... Hal would have been fine to just leave everyone and go straight to Heaven but that was not what was suppose to happen, its not part of Gods plan for Hal to come to Heaven at this time... So Abin then shows up and talks to Hal about Hal overcoming great Fear something he has not done YET!! During this time Ganthets Green ball of light is following Hal and Hal is ignoring it correct?? correct. After a few more seconds Hals father appears and tells him to "Fly Home". It is at that time Hal changes course at the last minute and looks at Ganthets green light and follows it back to Hals body.... That is how it ends with Spectre/Hals relationship.

Also, Hal doesn't hear no more crys for Vengeance because why?? Because he isn't with The Spectre no more... Hal can't even remember much when he was with The Spectre which makes sense, hes back to being a normal/hero human living his life.

About Crisis.. i've read it before but i don't have it. I'll have to get it . Anyway, while The Spectre grabs the Anti-Monitors hand and holds him back, the Anti-Monitor is beginning to win (wooo) at this time The Spectre is amazed and starts screaming for more power more power. Who would he be asking for more power from??? The Hero's?? I doubt that, the Hero's was already helping, he was probably asking The Logos(The Word) for more power. after a few moments because of the amount of power that is being given to him to fight the Anti-Monitor he starts screaming in pain and he sees worlds and dimensions that he never thought possible. After this everything explodes and the universe turns to blinding white light and everything is recreated as the 5 earths are now 1 and 1 Universe. Did The Spectre really win?? nobody really knows but we do know he was in a coma and still had power in him that the Hero's was using (might be wrong haven't read crisis lately). My best guess is that he did beat the Anti-Monitor when it really mattered, and he did recreate the DC Universe it just took so much out of him fighting the Anti-Monitor and remaking the universe and having that much power. if he didn't beat him at that point the DC Universe would be destroyed (As long as thats what The Presence would want of course).
Well enough for tonight...

Originally posted by kevdude
Hal never told Ganthet he would never follow his light again??? WHAT??? Are you reading that at all ????? Ganthet says while he is being infected by Parallax "Hal Jordan... Follow My Light...." what does Hal say to Ganthet???? "Not Again... I Won't".... HOW IN THE WORLD DO U NOT THINK THATS HAL NOT TELLING GANTHET HE ISN'T GOING TO FOLLOW HIS LIGHT AGAIN??? Who is Hal talking too for crying out loud?? Spectre?? Superman?? Guy?? No!!! hes talking to Ganthet.... Hal would have been fine to just leave everyone and go straight to Heaven but that was not what was suppose to happen, its not part of Gods plan for Hal to come to Heaven at this time... So Abin then shows up and talks to Hal about Hal overcoming great Fear something he has not done YET!! During this time Ganthets Green ball of light is following Hal and Hal is ignoring it correct?? correct. After a few more seconds Hals father appears and tells him to "Fly Home". It is at that time Hal changes course at the last minute and looks at Ganthets green light and follows it back to Hals body.... That is how it ends with Spectre/Hals relationship.

Also, Hal doesn't hear no more crys for Vengeance because why?? Because he isn't with The Spectre no more... Hal can't even remember much when he was with The Spectre which makes sense, hes back to being a normal/hero human living his life. Hal is not dismissing Ganthet's request to follow his light. I wish I had the comic and the scanner handy. The comment of, "No... not again..." is a protest of him being pulled away into heaven against his will. He wants to finish the fight, he knows Ganthet and the heroes are in a big pile of doo-doo having just watched Ganthet get infected, since he is the only one who knows how to really fight Parallax.

He's saying, "No... not again..." because he doesn't want to get pulled into Heaven like he did the first time he died. You could say that this is my interpretation, but theres evidence for it. You see Hal reaching towards Ganthet as he is saying this. He's looking for a tether and resisting the pull. Why would he reach towards him if he's refusing Ganthet's request? And most importantly, we both recognize that Hal does end up following Ganthet's ball of light. That ball of light veers him away from Heaven's path of light and towards his body, since Ganthet is one of the few people who actually knows where Hal's body is. So I think my interpretation of Hal's comment is very consistent with the end result we both recognize, he ends up doing what Ganthet asks. For Hal to watch his ultimate enemy Parallax take control of Ganthet, reach out to Ganthet and then essentially say to him, "Piss off. I don't take orders from you anymore..." and then to change his mind and decide to follow his ball of light... is reallly stretching it. I don't think that's the appropriate interpretation anyway you cut it. Besides, he never shows contempt for Ganthet in the conclusion nor in the ongoing series.

Your interpretation of Abin's famous words to Hal as being evidence that Hal did not overcome his greatest fear to loosen Parallax's grip on his own soul is stretching it as well. Parallax hasn't been beaten yet, the job isn't finished. So of course Abin's comment is true, but that doesn't necessarily mean Hal hasn't figured out how to fight Parallax by that time. I want you to re-read Hal's conversation with Kyle, Guy and Stewart right before they fly off to confront Ganthellax together. He talks about knowing your greatest fear, and moving past it and Parallax won't affect you, as if he had already used this knowledge against Parallax before. He is confident that this will work. So if he never attempted it (according to you), why would he know that this will work and protect the GL's? Why would he suddenly just think about his greatest fear of watching his dad die out of the blue like that? It is more obvious to conclude that Hal used this method against Parallax before in loosening his grip on his soul, and was advising the other GL's with this experience.

You mention that the cries of vengeance that are absent from Hal's soul after he is seperated are a result of his seperation. Absolutely correct. You also use this to support your contention that perhaps this is not evidence that Hal ever dismissed these cries for vengeance as I have alleged. However, even before they were separated, haven't we seen Hal complaining to Ollie about how he doesn't feel right and that his burning of Black Hand was not him? Haven't we also seen Hal talk to Carol about how his actions as the Spectre was "nonsense?" We also saw Hal literally struggle with Spectre who forced him away when possessed-Stewart attacked the JLA at Ferris Airport. He's been fighting the idea of vengeance and his role because he knows that 1) It's not him and 2) It's not the solution to Hal's unseen angst (who ended up being Parallax).

This wrestling with Spectre who even admitted that his power was ineffectual against Parallax directly, combined with the knowledge of Parallax's nature of feeding upon fear, combined with his recent epiphanies about his father's death as being his greatest fear (during his conversation with Carol) all led him to move away from the idea of vengeance. Look at the scan below again. Hal asks Spectre to help him at that point, not vice-versa. Hal asks twice and starts swearing at Spectre. Doesn't it appear that he is dismissing Spectre's moan for vengeance and even swearing at him? I interpret this as: "Dammit Spectre! Shut the hell up about vengeance! This isn't about vengeance anymore, I just need help breaking through!" That is my interpretation and is thusly supported by Hal's conversations with Ollie and Carol about how vengeance just doesn't seem right. Ganthet even states that Parallax chose the wrong soul to corrupt, he didn't comment that Spectre was guiding him to win or that Spectre had anything to do with the tearing through Parallax right before the seperation.

You interpret this scene as Spectre compelling Hal to switch to vengeance. When Hal is asking for help and swearing,... what is he doing? According to you, he's stating, "Dammit. I hate vengeance. I don't want any part of it." And then when you see Spectre's request for vengeance one last time, you believe that Hal finally accepts it. Several flaws though. First, Hal, in reply to Spectre's final request for vengeance basically is a reiteration of "Dammit. Help me." That doesn't sound like a passive tone of voice, indicative of Hal's final submission to the power of vengeance that allowed Spectre to free them. It sounds more like what I think, "Shut the hell up about vengeance. This isn't about vengeance anymore. Just help me." The most obvious flaw in your theory is that, if Hal does not switch to vengeance until that one final moment in reply to Spectre's last call... just how exactly is Hal breaking free from Parallax? He doesn't switch to vengeance until the end... so how's he ripping Parallax apart? Isn't it easier to assume that Hal is doing it of his own power by making fear ineffectual against him? Because this is certainly supported by his conversations and flashbacks and even after-the-fact conversations. Hell... its the ultimate theme of the story. Another flaw in your version of that event is Hal never says anything good about vengeance throughout the entire storyline. Suddenly he has an epiphany after struggling with Spectre for so long and that was the ultimate resolution that freed Hal? And yet, Hal never once thinks, "I see now. Vengeance is the only way." He never speaks these words of advice to the other GL's as the base for resisting parallax's power either. There is simply NO evidence other than your direct interpretation that Hal ever switched to vengeance. But he sure repeats the thought of "Embracing your greatest fear so that fear has no hold on you" a whole lot.

I'll hit you up in the morning, on most of this...

but Spectre slept after remaking the universes in Crisis and banishing the Anti-Monitor, because the soul that was attached to him was separated from his body.
You don't think it was the Spectre that did it in the Crisis? Yet the blinding flash of light that destroyed and remade the universe... came out Spectre's hand. lol.

Spectre had recreated reality a number of times, as I've pointed out. And even some I didn't.
Ganthet has never shown that level of power.

Originally posted by Juntai
I'll hit you up in the morning, on most of this...

but Spectre slept after remaking the universes in Crisis and banishing the Anti-Monitor, because the soul that was attached to him was separated from his body.
You don't think it was the Spectre that did it in the Crisis? Yet the blinding flash of light that destroyed and remade the universe... came out Spectre's hand. lol.

Spectre had recreated reality a number of times, as I've pointed out. And even some I didn't.
Ganthet has never shown that level of power. I do not interpret the blinding flash of light as Spectre consciously destroying the universe and molding it into single DCUniverse. The multiverse is being destroyed by a chain reaction caused by viewing the dawn of time. It looks to me that he was struggling to prevent the destruction of the multiverse and the single DCUniverse was the incidental result of the struggle. In my recollection, never once does he say, "I must make the multiverse into one." Never does he say, "I must destroy and remake everything." He DOES state beforehand, that they must stop the Anti-monitor. And he did w/ some mages help. But he did NOT prevent the destruction of the multiverse. That is why I can't give him as much credit as you, because he essentially failed in that purpose. There used to be a multiverse, now there's only one universe. I'm not saying he didn't do all he could, but what evidence do you have that the end result of one DCUniverse was his conscious plan all along?

I've shown multiple instances where the Power of the Guardians has shown the same or similar levels of power of destroying and recreating the universe as well. So I don't understand how your using Spectre's feats to trump this. You also act like Ganthet can't do this. Let me ask you one question, "The Power of the Guardians... whose power is that?" It's the Guardian's power! If the Guardian's power has been used by other people to destroy and remake and do all sorts of other high end feats, why do you act like Ganthet can't accomplish all that? It's HIS power! It's the Guardian's power! Just because Ganthet was never so reckless or irresponsible to remake and remold universes doesn't mean he can't! What kind of logic is this? It's like saying that Hulk can't beat up 5-yr old lil Timmy, because he never beat up 5-yr old lil Timmy. I've shown you how the Power of the Guardians has been used to accomplish high end feats like the Spectre. And yet, you act like the Guardians and especially Ganthet can't do that. How can you possibly ignore that the Power of the Guardians IS IN FACT, the Guardian's power?! The friggin name of the power is just SO obvious!

The fact that you rely on Ganthet never personally doing stuff like this leads me to believe that you cannot assail my other arguments and proofs and are relying on this as your last bastion. You never counter the feats that the Power of the Guardians has accomplished where the Spectre's power couldn't. Namely, effectivness in Anti-matter universe and the defeat of Parallax. So until you address that, I will continue to seriously doubt your interpretations of things. I have tackled EVERY single objection you have posted. You have not done the same.

BTW, that's not entirely true. I didn't tackle one interesting objection. You said Spectre turned off Ganthet's power. Very interesting. I asked for context, you never gave it. But for one last time, I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and take your word for it. I will assume he merely snapped his fingers and shut em off. It really does sound like Spectre is indeed stronger than Ganthet if he could do that. But hey... I know a being that has shut off Spectre's power also. As easy as a snap of her fingers. Black Alice. Not only did she shut em off, she used em for herself! So I guess by your run of logic, one little teenage girl named Black Alice is now the undisputed most powerful being in the universe. She shut off the Spectre who shut off Ganthet. She must be friggin God. Yeah,... right. Warpin reality and preventing access to power isn't just reserved for the strongest beings in the DCUniverse. I hope you abandon this ridiculous line of logic.

Now I wait for your counters and please post some scans for stories that I did not read, because I'm not taking what you say at face value anymore. They were interesting, and even though I haven't read the stories AND gave you the benefit of the doubt, I've still completely and utterly rebutted everything you've posted. I wait for you to attempt to do the same. Start with Spectre being worthless in the Anti-matter universe and Spectre being worthless against Parallax.

SO by your interpretation of this event, Hal Jordan does not want to go to Heaven??? Does that really make sense?? Who wouldn't want to go to Heaven??? Nobody. You say he is trying to find a way away from the light and hes resisting the pull??? Not really, Hal is just relaxing and flying stretching out his arms waiting to be embraced by God. If he was as you say resisting the pull wouldn't he just have to look at Ganthets ball of light to leave Gods light and go back to his body like he did AFTER Abin and his dad talked with him? They was the ones that changed Hals mind. I don't need to see a picture of it, I have it in my lap lol. This is the correct interpretation of that event. We do agree that Hal does do what Ganthet wants him to do but its not Ganthet that was the reason Hal returned at all...

About Ganthet, If I was Hal Jordan I wouldn't listen to Ganthet either, look at there history. Ganthet didn't help Jordan when he most needed him (after Coast City was destroyed, not saying to try to make it seem like nothing ever happened but at least acting like a real friend which Ganthet and the Guardians didn't do). Ollie even tells Kyle (or someone else don't remember right now) that he doesn't trust Ganthet, so how would Hal feel about him???

Why is it taking so long for you to understand this???? Most of these questions have already been answered correctly, just open your mind up to the possibility that Spectre does > Ganthet.. You keep saying your not anti-spectre but how you act you seem you don't want to waste your time with it, you just want to prove Ganthet > Spectre. I've read Rebirth many times and I know how they mean what is put in Rebirth.

Also about the Anti-Monitors powers, he was being powered by hundreds if not thousands of universes dieing, The Anti-Monitor would be foolish to go up against The Spectre at the beginning, he would lose! That is why DC saved the big battle for last almost The Anti-Monitor took out The Guardians right at the beginning, how can they be so powerful so smart if they can't come back when they are really really needed?

I do not interpret the blinding flash of light as Spectre consciously destroying the universe and molding it into single DCUniverse. The multiverse is being destroyed by a chain reaction caused by viewing the dawn of time. It looks to me that he was struggling to prevent the destruction of the multiverse and the single DCUniverse was the incidental result of the struggle.

--Wrong, because the viewing of the dawn of time, happened years earlier in DC comics. It didn't destroy the universe, and it didn't almost destroy the universe.. it just created an END of time. Where it loops and starts over. Anti-Monitor was trying to go BACK to this moment, which happened EARLIER, and BECOME the hand, but Spectre fought back, and his blinding light coming from HIS HAND, SHATTERED AND REACREATED THE UNIVERSE. Whether he declared it not, that eminating white light that did this feat, came out of his hand, that is undisputable. "The energy explodes inside him!" Did you ever actually read, rather than just looking at the pictures? It's obvious he shattered and recreated the universe.

You'll also see Doctor Fate claiming, that if Spectre killed Anti-Monitor outright, that in that instant, every hero he was drawing power from would die. There's your reason on why Spectre DIDN'T do that.

Like I said, read the preview for Infinite Crisis 5. Some of the most powerful beings in the universe can't stop what's coming. They have to beg Spectre to help.

"and Spectre being worthless against Parallax."
In Zero Hour, between the page when you see Spectre get a hole in his chest, and what like a page or two after that? You'll notice, Hal didn't do anything with his power between these points but rather was fighting hand to hand, punches and headbutts, and a bubble comes off of Kyle's head. "He's completely drained, now's our chance!"
Then Spectre pops back up says "Justice is satisfied." and recreates the universe.

lol

You'll also notice through the fight people are begging Spectre not to kill him.

How about we talk about how Ganthet ran and hid from Hal during this whole ordeal? Or how all the guardians couldn't stop him from entering the battery? Or all but Ganthet sacrifices themselves and said to LEAVE and usher in a new era? They knew Ganthet wasn't powerful enough for Hal. And that was BEFORE he took in the Anti-Monitor's power as well.

lol.

In Day of Judgement, Azmodel/Spectre turned off the power of the entire Quintessence with a wave of his hand-- Shazam, Odin, Zues, Ganthet, Highfather. These guys are some of the universes largest sources of magic. Hal also came back in this series, led from purgatory.. he was still crazy powerful. He recreated the Corp to fight alongside him. Spectre looked at him and turned him into glass and shattered him. He was still running off of Parallax's energy at this point. Everyone stood aside so he could try to take on Spectre, and he just owned like a *****. lol.

Originally posted by Juntai
--Wrong, because the viewing of the dawn of time, happened years earlier in DC comics. It didn't destroy the universe, and it didn't almost destroy the universe.. it just created an END of time. Where it loops and starts over. Anti-Monitor was trying to go BACK to this moment, which happened EARLIER, and BECOME the hand, but Spectre fought back, and his blinding light coming from HIS HAND, SHATTERED AND REACREATED THE UNIVERSE. Whether he declared it not, that eminating white light that did this feat, came out of his hand, that is undisputable. "The energy explodes inside him!" Did you ever actually read, rather than just looking at the pictures? It's obvious he shattered and recreated the universe.

You'll also see Doctor Fate claiming, that if Spectre killed Anti-Monitor outright, that in that instant, every hero he was drawing power from would die. There's your reason on why Spectre DIDN'T do that.

Like I said, read the preview for Infinite Crisis 5. Some of the most powerful beings in the universe can't stop what's coming. They have to beg Spectre to help.

"and Spectre being worthless against Parallax."
In Zero Hour, between the page when you see Spectre get a hole in his chest, and what like a page or two after that? You'll notice, Hal didn't do anything with his power between these points but rather was fighting hand to hand, punches and headbutts, and a bubble comes off of Kyle's head. "He's completely drained, now's our chance!"
Then Spectre pops back up says "Justice is satisfied." and recreates the universe.

lol

You'll also notice through the fight people are begging Spectre not to kill him.

How about we talk about how Ganthet ran and hid from Hal during this whole ordeal? Or how all the guardians couldn't stop him from entering the battery? Or all but Ganthet sacrifices themselves and said to LEAVE and usher in a new era? They knew Ganthet wasn't powerful enough for Hal. And that was BEFORE he took in the Anti-Monitor's power as well.

lol.

In Day of Judgement, Azmodel/Spectre turned off the power of the entire Quintessence with a wave of his hand-- Shazam, Odin, Zues, Ganthet, Highfather. These guys are some of the universes largest sources of magic. Hal also came back in this series, led from purgatory.. he was still crazy powerful. He recreated the Corp to fight alongside him. Spectre looked at him and turned him into glass and shattered him. He was still running off of Parallax's energy at this point. Everyone stood aside so he could try to take on Spectre, and he just owned like a *****. lol. Your observation that Spectre and the mages did not want to kill the Anti-monitor is correct. I remember that. However, I still don't think that the flash of light is his conscious effort to remold the universe, but rather to end the continued destruction of the multiverse. I think that he's trying to stop the destruction of the multiverse and his mage reinforced power was only enough to incidentally force the multiverse to restructure itself. It's like when I try to hit a homerun, but end up hitting a double. Yes, I did hit the double, but I was trying to do something else and the result of the double was incidental and not conscious to my real plan. But whether or not I think he did it at that particular instance consciously is belaboring an inconsequential point. Even if I get Wolfman and Perez themselves to support my argument, it doesn't change that Spectre has indeed destroyed and recreated the universe on other occasions.

About your analysis of 'Zero Hour,' I wasn't asking for that. I was asking you to resolve Spectre's ineffectiveness against Parallax itself, the entity of living fear in 'Green Lantern: Rebirth.' But now that you bring it up, your interpretation of the Guardians being punked by Hal is off-point. The Guardians actually chose not to do anything. They suddenly had a bout of 'non-interference' going and basically allowed themselves to be destroyed rather then fight back. An odd choice, since they interfered at other times like with Sinestro, but if you read 'Emerald Twilight,' its clear that is what happened. I suppose the writers had to do this, so that Hal had a fighting chance to absorb the power. We've seen how veteran GL's do against Guardians personally. For a pure bloodlust fight, look no further than when Kilowog tried to attack Ganthet in 'Rebirth.' Either way, Hal punking them is off-point since they made that choice.

About 'Day of Judgement,' I thought we went over this already. People can bypass raw power to steal and/or shut off access to powers. We see this plot device ALL THE TIME. Doom must have absorbed the Power Cosmic from Surfer a dozen times over in MU. Does that feat show he personally outpowers Surfer? C'mon, man. It would be different if nobody EVER did this to Spectre, but I already pointed out Black Alice! Spectre's raw power did not stop her from stealing it. Hallax's raw power or the Quintessence's raw power did not prevent the Spectre from shutting their power off either. If you run with this logic, to show this feat as proof that Spectre outpowers them personally, then you've shown that Black Alice outpowers Spectre personally. This is just ridiculous and I thought it patently obvious that running with this logic leads us to a patently absurd reordering of the powers of the DCUniverse: 1) God 2) Word and whatnot 3) Black Alice 4) Spectre and so on... You can't use this logic to prove Spectre being more powerful and then ignore that you've just now shown Spectre to be weaker than a human girl magician. These feats shouldn't be used to support one character personally outpowering another. I think we can easily agree on this.

So after reading your post, you've tried several things:

1) Attempt to prove your interpretation of Crisis. To be honest, I don't agree with it, (I still see no evidence that Spectre consciously molded the universe) but that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, since we both recognize that Spectre did it with help and that either way, Spectre has destroyed and recreated the universe afterwards.

2) Completely went off on a tangent with 'Zero Hour.' But I still explained the punking of the Guardians, and even if we find their excuse lame, its still the explicit reason why that happened.

3) Brought up the Black Alice argument again. I just won't even talk about this anymore.

Now, you've been bringing up some old and new things, but you still haven't addressed the two points I asked you to address. Spectre's ineffectivness in the anti-matter universe and Spectre's ineffectiveness against Parallax (the cosmic entity of living fear). I'm pretty sure I've got you in a corner, but I will give you another shot to try to resolve this. If you continue to ignore it, then I will consider it a complete concession. Also, knock it off with the constant 'lols.' Since I just turned everything you've posted on its head, they're pointless. But I did that without rubbing it in and you could show the same courtesy.

Can't really compare Black Alice to The Spectre shutting off other beings powers. Black Alices power is to steal any beings power for a short time and use them. While Black Alice had The Spectres power she was trying to keep it but it was going back to The Spectre, and with only a little bit of Spectres power back to him he was setting up barriers up against her so she couldn't do it ever again.

All of your questions dude has been answered its just you don't like the answers or are ignoring them outright which isn't fair to Spectre. I've reread Rebirth/DOV and i'm in the process of getting all of Hal/Spectre series now on ebay so i'll know what really happened. And has Ganthet ever shown any power to shut off other beings powered other then the GL rings (I've never seen him shut off a GL ring now thinking about).

Originally posted by kevdude
Can't really compare Black Alice to The Spectre shutting off other beings powers. Black Alices power is to steal any beings power for a short time and use them. While Black Alice had The Spectres power she was trying to keep it but it was going back to The Spectre, and with only a little bit of Spectres power back to him he was setting up barriers up against her so she couldn't do it ever again.

All of your questions dude has been answered its just you don't like the answers or are ignoring them outright which isn't fair to Spectre. I've reread Rebirth/DOV and i'm in the process of getting all of Hal/Spectre series now on ebay so i'll know what really happened. And has Ganthet ever shown any power to shut off other beings powered other then the GL rings (I've never seen him shut off a GL ring now thinking about). I can't believe you man. So now you're saying, that when Spectre shut off Ganthet (I STILL haven't seen the context), that proves he is more powerful. When someone shuts off someone else's power, that is proof that they are more powerful.

But when Black Alice shut off Spectre, that doesn't count. When Dr. Doom nullified Surfer's Power Cosmic, that doesn't count either. I just showed you two instances when someone who wasn't more powerful, was able to shut off someone who was more powerful... and yet... that doesn't count. I'll be honest, kevdude. That not only is plain unfair, but it sounds stupid and ignorant.

Face it. Being able to shut off somebody else's power doesn't prove a god damn thing about who is stronger, because if it did, then Black Alice is stronger than Spectre and Dr. Doom is stronger than Silver Surfer.

Originally posted by kevdude
SO by your interpretation of this event, Hal Jordan does not want to go to Heaven??? Does that really make sense?? Who wouldn't want to go to Heaven??? Nobody. You say he is trying to find a way away from the light and hes resisting the pull??? Not really, Hal is just relaxing and flying stretching out his arms waiting to be embraced by God. If he was as you say resisting the pull wouldn't he just have to look at Ganthets ball of light to leave Gods light and go back to his body like he did AFTER Abin and his dad talked with him? They was the ones that changed Hals mind. I don't need to see a picture of it, I have it in my lap lol. This is the correct interpretation of that event. We do agree that Hal does do what Ganthet wants him to do but its not Ganthet that was the reason Hal returned at all...

About Ganthet, If I was Hal Jordan I wouldn't listen to Ganthet either, look at there history. Ganthet didn't help Jordan when he most needed him (after Coast City was destroyed, not saying to try to make it seem like nothing ever happened but at least acting like a real friend which Ganthet and the Guardians didn't do). Ollie even tells Kyle (or someone else don't remember right now) that he doesn't trust Ganthet, so how would Hal feel about him???

Why is it taking so long for you to understand this???? Most of these questions have already been answered correctly, just open your mind up to the possibility that Spectre does > Ganthet.. You keep saying your not anti-spectre but how you act you seem you don't want to waste your time with it, you just want to prove Ganthet > Spectre. I've read Rebirth many times and I know how they mean what is put in Rebirth.

Also about the Anti-Monitors powers, he was being powered by hundreds if not thousands of universes dieing, The Anti-Monitor would be foolish to go up against The Spectre at the beginning, he would lose! That is why DC saved the big battle for last almost The Anti-Monitor took out The Guardians right at the beginning, how can they be so powerful so smart if they can't come back when they are really really needed? You're starting to frustrate me by not even seeing something as simple as this. "Who in their right mind, would resist going to Heaven?" How about when a hero has been fighting his worst enemy, that worst enemy now threatens his friends and the universe again and then you're not being allowed to finish the fight? Hasn't this plot device been used before? Where a hero sacrifices happiness, EVEN eternal happiness to do the right thing? Its like a prerequisite for every superhero! You have to give up being happy even when you earned the right to be happy because the battle isn't over yet. Cap in 'Paradise X' gave up Heaven in order to protect it as a guardian angel. Adam Warlock gave up Paradise in the Soul Gem to fight Thanos during the 'Infinity Gauntlet.' This seems so patently obvious that I don't even think its necessary to offer more proof. So just admit, that your assumption is wrong. But since you have the comic in your laptop, post the scan and I will edit the image and point out even further proof this is what Hal is doing. Like the way Hal reaches out towards everybody before he gets pulled away. What's he doing there... waving goodbye?! You honestly think he is saying or thinking, "I'm going to Heaven now, so screw you guys, you're on your own." This makes absolutely no sense.

If Hal was still upset about Ganthet not helping him resurrect Coast City, then you're saying that Hal thinks resurrecting Coast City was the right thing to do. Isn't it obvious how wrong that is when its spelled out? Especially in the face of the fact that Hal doesn't just run off and steal the Power of the Guardians again right after 'Rebirth.' Why would he resent Ganthet, when Hal recognizes that using all that power was the wrong thing to do? I wanted to kill 5-yr old Timmy. Sure,... killing 5-yr old Timmy was actually wrong. But you know what, you're a jerk for trying to stop me. This makes absolutely no sense.

About Guardians being useless in Crisis again. Let me repeat, we never saw what the Guardians could have done. They were taken out of the game with a sneak attack all the way back in issue #2. A, sneak, attack. You're saying because they couldn't do anything in response, we should assume they suck and would have been useless anyway? First off, why the hell would you make a sneak attack against someone that was inconsequential? Does that make sense or is Anti-monitor an idiot?

Secondly, let me further illustrate with an analagous comic book story: The fight in 'Ultimate War' between the Ultimates and Ult. X-Men. I hope you've read that, but even if you didn't, here's the lowdown: Nick Fury used psionic inhibitors to preemptively knock out Prof X and Jean Grey before the fight cause the Ultimates would just have been zapped by psychic attacks. So according to your reasoning, Prof X and Jean Grey suck and would have been useless since they got knocked out when they were really really really needed. Riiiiight... Well, maybe now its obvious why this line of reasoning is just wrong. The Guardians being the first people Anti-monitor even engaged with a sneak attack should, if anything, tell you that they were really dangerous to him. I won't ask you to make that assumption, but don't use this sneak attack as proof that the Guardians suck. If anything, it is evidence that the Guardians would have caused the Anti-Monitor a heap of trouble if he didn't take em out first with a sneak attack. Your interpretation doesn't make any sense.

Again, it is my honest opinion that your interpretation of 'Rebirth' is totally off-the-wall. There are too many holes and conflicts and you've had to change your positions many times. I wouldn't be having this debate with you if I didn't think it was so obvious that 'Rebirth' established that 'Ganthet > Spectre.' Face it, my interpretation is more logically sound, sounds better on a thematic scale and you've NEVER been able to show anything in my interpretation that is inconsistent. You stretch things, your themes are all over the place and I've constantly been picking your views apart with the obvious artwork, conversations, actions and flashbacks that make your view inconsistent. I've also made you reverse some of your positions and forced you to just plain abandon others. I've even shown some of your explanations as just sounding plain nonsensical. I'm not insulting you, but I just can't avoid calling some of yur explanation as anything other than that. Like this below:
Originally posted by kevdude
Isn't that what Hal did??? He realized how to fight Parallax using Vengeance. Part of using Vengeance is Fighting and Facing Fear, Face To Face not running away from it. I don't even know how to start attacking that, because it just makes no sense!
Originally posted by kevdude
And has Ganthet ever shown any power to shut off other beings powered other then the GL rings (I've never seen him shut off a GL ring now thinking about). What?! have you ever seen Dr. Doom break an egg with his fist? No? Well.. I guess he can't break an egg with his fist. Come to think of it, Spectre never beat Ambush Bug either... guess that means he can't and Ambush Bug is more powerful than him...... That just doesn't make sense.

I haven't abandoned anything at all ive just moved on since to other things because you aren't understanding it. About Hal reaching for Ganthets light, he isn't really reaching for Ganthets light at all in the picture, hes looking back to John and then is pulled into Gods light. If you want to say "well look at his hand, its reaching out towards John", no its not, John pulled his arm away while trying to get Hals attention and his arm is just there!! I don't have a scanner the comics is in my lap. You must have the comic so just read it and look at it this way and you would see im right, and if im right about that then who knows what else im right about??

About Hal not caring about his friends and Parallax. I'm sure he cared alot about what was going on, but if anyone is in Gods presence who would really in there right mind want to leave??? nobody. remember when the heros went to ask Jim Corrigan to come back to be the Spectres host again while he was in Heaven, what did he say?? he said no, and of course he would say no anyone would, that just makes sense. If you get this confused then how are u going to understand Rebirth really?

about Ganthets power ability's and him shutting off other beings powers. That was just a test i did for you to see how much of a pro-Ganthet and anti-Spectre you are. Maybe doing this would make u look at everything me and Juntai said different and make you look at your posts in another way but who knows.

........

Fact is--- Spectre is a piece of God.
Ganthet is a creation thereof.

As was noted in Spectre volume 4, issue 4. Or Hal's run as Spectre. While Logoz/The Spectre, is not "THE ALL", it IS God's will and physical manifestation.. The Logoz assumed the form of Aztar. As Corrigan saw in Spectre volume 3 issue 60.

If you want to believe a random being inside of the universe is greater than the manifestation of the God that created it... "You outcho damn mind, yo." But still, after this post, I'll leave you to your delusions.

You're good and solid at debating, but you're completely ignoring these facts. And while I'm not answering ALL of your questions, it's because they are completly irrelivent to the point here-- ...Spectre is the will of God... Ganthet is a blue midget.


-fin'.

Originally posted by Juntai
Fact is--- Spectre is a piece of God.
Ganthet is a creation thereof.

As was noted in Spectre volume 4, issue 4. Or Hal's run as Spectre. While Logoz/The Spectre, is not "THE ALL", it IS God's will and physical manifestation.. The Logoz assumed the form of Aztar. As Corrigan saw in Spectre volume 3 issue 60.

If you want to believe a random being inside of the universe is greater than the manifestation of the God that created it... "You outcho damn mind, yo." But still, after this post, I'll leave you to your delusions.

You're good and solid at debating, but you're completely ignoring these facts. And while I'm not answering ALL of your questions, it's because they are completly irrelivent to the point here-- ...Spectre is the will of God... Ganthet is a blue midget.


-fin'. Again, I would very much like to see the context of those passages. Because this is the ultimate issue: If I take what you say to be true, then God's will has no power in the anti-matter universe. That doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things. I don't think Qward or the anti-matter universe is outside God's control. The Spectre has explicitly stated that his power is useless in the anti-matter universe. He was also useless against a cosmic entity of living fear. I'm pretty sure even the concept of anti-matter and fear is not foreign to God. Hell, a teenage girl magician was able to steal Spectre's powers and show him to be nothing more than a ghost.

So I must assume that these instances are complete author's error, or I can offer these as evidence that your interpretation of the Spectre series is taken out of context. If you decide not to address the imminent and clear inconsistencies presented, 1) the will of God or a piece of God has no bearing in the anti-matter universe, 2) the will of god or a piece of God cannot affect a cosmic entity of living fear and 3) a teenage girl magician may subvert the will of God or a piece of God for her own purposes... then I have no choice but to decide that your involvement in this debate is over and you've given up. I'm not going to beat a dead horse, unless it involves Captain America being beaten by some 2nd rate character.

But moving past that, I am interested in hearing your other interpretations of the Spectre. Such as, if Spectre is a piece of God, which by your understanding is a virtue that places him above any of God's creations,... how do you explain that these Archangels and such basically tell Spectre what to do? Because if they are Archangels, then they are creations of God right? And it seems they are at least equal to Spectre's power or authority from what you've told me. If that's the case, than your assertion that a creation of God cannot match a piece of God Himself is defeated on its face. Also, what about the Spear of Destiny? Hasn't that been shown to be able to destroy the Spectre? If it can, does that mean a weapon exists that can destroy a piece of God?

Again, keep in mind that what I think the Spectre series shows, is that the Spectre isn't merely some disembodied and brainwashed angel. He is a disembodied and brainwashed angel that derives his power from a part of God himself, his Wrath. However, that is different from equating Spectre to being a piece of God. But my interpretation certainly allows for the blatant inconsistencies I've demonstrated. Either way, since you won't answer my questions about anti-matter universes and Parallax, how about you tell me some more about when in the universe's timeline, the Spectre came into being, how Michael has interacted with Spectre and what danger the Spear of Destiny poses to him. If you want, you can also talk about Jesus in DCU and how his presence limited the Spectre as well.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Again, I would very much like to see the context of those passages. Because this is the ultimate issue: If I take what you say to be true, then God's will has no power in the anti-matter universe. That doesn't make sense in the grand scheme of things. I don't think Qward or the anti-matter universe is outside God's control. The Spectre has explicitly stated that his power is useless in the anti-matter universe. He was also useless against a cosmic entity of living fear. I'm pretty sure even the concept of anti-matter and fear is not foreign to God. Hell, a teenage girl magician was able to steal Spectre's powers and show him to be nothing more than a ghost.

So I must assume that these instances are complete author's error, or I can offer these as evidence that your interpretation of the Spectre series is taken out of context. If you decide not to address the imminent and clear inconsistencies presented, 1) the will of God or a piece of God has no bearing in the anti-matter universe, 2) the will of god or a piece of God cannot affect a cosmic entity of living fear and 3) a teenage girl magician may subvert the will of God or a piece of God for her own purposes... then I have no choice but to decide that your involvement in this debate is over and you've given up. I'm not going to beat a dead horse, unless it involves Captain America being beaten by some 2nd rate character.

But moving past that, I am interested in hearing your other interpretations of the Spectre. Such as, if Spectre is a piece of God, which by your understanding is a virtue that places him above any of God's creations,... how do you explain that these Archangels and such basically tell Spectre what to do? Because if they are Archangels, then they are creations of God right? And it seems they are at least equal to Spectre's power or authority from what you've told me. If that's the case, than your assertion that a creation of God cannot match a piece of God Himself is defeated on its face. Also, what about the Spear of Destiny? Hasn't that been shown to be able to destroy the Spectre? If it can, does that mean a weapon exists that can destroy a piece of God?

Again, keep in mind that what I think the Spectre series shows, is that the Spectre isn't merely some disembodied and brainwashed angel. He is a disembodied and brainwashed angel that derives his power from a part of God himself, his Wrath. However, that is different from equating Spectre to being a piece of God. But my interpretation certainly allows for the blatant inconsistencies I've demonstrated. Either way, since you won't answer my questions about anti-matter universes and Parallax, how about you tell me some more about when in the universe's timeline, the Spectre came into being, how Michael has interacted with Spectre and what danger the Spear of Destiny poses to him. If you want, you can also talk about Jesus in DCU and how his presence limited the Spectre as well. Read Spectre's series and you will be enlightened.

I've already posted the piece on him being identified on page as a piece of God itself.

Hal saw past The Wrath and found what it actually is. The Logoz, it told him itself in issue 4 of his series.

And The Spear if Destiny is the ONLY weapon that can destroy The Spectre, because it has ALREADY pierced the Holy Veil when it killed Jesus.

And The Angels don't TELL Spectre what to do. They offer guidance to the HOST at times.

The times that MICHEAL came and told The Spectre what to do- is when he said he came in fullfillment of what The Word had spoken to him. The Word also known as The Logoz, or, The Spectre-Force.

Any faults you may pretend to be able to find in The Spectre, is actually in the HOST, and not the power itself..The Spectre Force cuts the power out of the host if it is going against it's will. This has all been explained in his own series.

Regardless of anything you're trying to point out, the fact is, on page, on paper, in the comics, Spectre itself spoke to Hal, and told him what was up. Same as I'm trying to help you with. lol.

Straight out of that issue. Issue 4 of Spectre's series.

"I have not changed Hal -- you have! For at last you believe to the core of your being that there is hope... for yourself and the children of Earth. And in believing you have freed me from the tyranny of man's projections."

Hal: "This is your true face?"

"As best you can percieve it."

Hal: "Not a demon at all, you're a. . . a . . piece of God itself."


Then on page 14, for further backup..

"For far too long I have reflected darkness in the human heart. I have been everything they wanted me to be. For the moment at least, your belief has pierced the viel of The Wrath and revealed THE LOGOZ that lies beneath! But do you have the courage to continue seeing me this way? To overide the consensus of reality and embrace the possibilities of what you... what we... what the world...can become?"

Originally posted by Juntai
Any faults you may pretend to be able to find in The Spectre, is actually in the HOST, and not the power itself..The Spectre Force cuts the power out of the host if it is going against it's will. This has all been explained in his own series.

Regardless of anything you're trying to point out, the fact is, on page, on paper, in the comics, Spectre itself spoke to Hal, and told him what was up. Same as I'm trying to help you with. lol. I've been away because of law school exams, but I'm back and the last thing I want to think about is contracts and torts. So I decided to haunt some of my old battlegrounds again. First off, just a quick comment on your whole 'Spectre giving the low-down.' Haven't we been making points that people's words aren't truth? You guys repeatedly told me how Parallax saying Spectre is powerless against him is false. Even in the face of evidence that Hal's overcoming fear was the major catalyst, you guys argued that this statement by Parallax is erroneous. I'm not saying that Spectre's testimony to Hal is false, but just because he said it proves nothing, otherwise this whole debate would have been over when Parallax stated Spectre was powerless against him. You need to support your interpretation of Spectre's testimony with evidence and resolve my discrepancies before you can award yourself an open and shut case. You're starting to do that with this whole 'host being at fault' theory. But I don't think it holds water, as I'll argue.

So you're saying that the reason Spectre can't do anything in the anti-matter universe is because the host was at fault? Yet, nothing in 'Crisis on Infinite Earths' or elsewhere for that matter, stated that if Spectre was disembodied from Corrigan, he could go ahead and run into the anti-matter universe without restriction. In fact, contrary to that, he states that explicitly in 'Crisis,' the reason he can't go into the anti-matter universe is that his power is magical in nature. Magic as we know doesn't work in the anti-matter universe. So are we to assume that Corrigan was speaking and Spectre was actually thinking, "Pfft. Stupid Corrigan, if only he knew the truth, we could go ahead and resolve this mess right up."??? I doubt even you would make this leap.

Hell, I'll do you even one better than that. A disembodied Spectre in 'Day of Vengeance' explicitly described himself as a magical being who would no longer exist once all magic was destroyed! Resolve that! I promise, scans will come shortly this week, but I'm pretty sure that conversation took place in the 3rd or 4th issue and I hope you remember that. So resolve that with your explanation.

Again I ask, how can the will of God have no bearing in the anti-matter universe as you've explained? I've already explained my belief, the Spectre-force is the manifestation of the power of vengeance. It finds its obvious source from God, but it is magical and therefore, it has its own limits, such as ineffectiveness in the anti-matter universe.

omg

Ok does this make sense, since Doomsday was able to almost destroy Oa and none of the Guardians could stop him, Doomsday must > Spectre. So then Superman must own > Spectre as well(even tho Superman never has been shown to > the Spectre or even on his power level ever!). The Spectre DOES > Ganthet and Parallax bro.

Hal/Spectre was on Apokolips and stood his ground when Darksied shot his Omega Beams at him, Hal/Spectre took the blow and then sent a beam of light to Darksied which killed him within seconds. The Source brought him back though cause Darksied wasn't allowed to die at that time.

You're bringing up something entirely new and avoiding my arguments. But if you want me to tackle this, I need more information. I remember reading that comic book, a part of Doomsday's origins. I think it was after he confronted Darkseid and neither decided to fight the other. Then I believe Darkseid transported him and he ran into a GL, who tried to trap him in a bubble. Than he overwhelms the bubble construct and the GL gets slain. Doomsday takes his ring and then you see a collage of shots where he travels on a yellow chunk of rock beating the crap out of a bunch of GL's. He finally gets in the middle of a civil war on an alien planet and makes a big mess of things whereupon he gets trapped in that container that eventually crashes into Earth just in time for 'Death of Superman.' I don't remember him on Oa kicking the crap out of the Guardians. If you say so, please post scans or some reference so I can see what context this was.

What I'm pointing out is not that hard to wrap around. The Power of the Guardians has shown the same feats of power that the Spectre's power of vengeance has. I think we're agreed on that. But when you directly compare feats/limits, even more than that, its done better in that it survives the anti-matter universe and worked against Parallax (at near universal power, mind you). What's so difficult to concede at this point?

And I don't particularly understand how Hal/Spectre taking a shot from Darkseid's Omega Beams relates to this conversation. Superman takes shots from the Omega Beams. Wonder Woman deflects Omega Beams with her bracelets for goodness' sake. Hal/Spectre killed Darkseid and resurrected him? Good for him. What's your point?

-- We know that many characters words aren't always true, but you're now saying that DC's Gods weren't aren't true. The Logoz itself and Hal had the conversation in Spectre v3 issue 4. Go read it.



--He is a victim of a retcon multiple times since then, so current Spectre is NOT the same as it was back then. Back then he was considered a manifestation of vengeance, he was depowered in the 1987-1989 series of Spectre, and then had to earn his place back through that series.. fostforward until now, and we know that Spectre is indeed the Logoz, which is a piece of God, as it said itself, and has also been noted for many times throughout DC comics' history. Corrigan used to explain all the time that he could not do things because he couldn't go against the Will of God. Hal, in his series unlocked the full potential of The Spectreforce in his series. Through the Legends of the DCU: Destroyer of World's series and his early apperances as Spectre, and all the way up until early in Spectre v.3 it was described many times that the Spectre was limiting him because if he was still crazy he do what he tried to as Parallax and that no one would be able to stop him.



--He didn't say that he'd no longer exist, he alluded to the point that he would destroy himself to rid the universe of all things magic, but that still agrees with him being magic as you said-- but it doesn't seem to prove anything.


--As I said he's a victim of a retcon. Also- your belief, and the comics don't seem to coincide, who are we to believe more when discussing DC's comics? OneDumbGo, or DC's God?


You keep making me defend Spectre in this thread, because of simply a complete lack of knowing his character or reading his comics, but what it comes down to is that this thread is Ganthet vs Spectre, and Ganthet's position in the universe, and the feats his power has accomplished, is nothing next to The Spectre's. Leading me, everyone else on this the forum who knows the characters decently well, the guys down at the comic shop, and pretty much everyone but you, that he is.

In the beginning it seemed as your whole basis for arguement in the thread was Ganthet claiming to be more powerful than Spectre, when it isn't true, in Rebirth, Ganthet says Spectre's power was greater than his own. It was Parallax who insinuated otherwise, and you'll notice he only wanted to feed off of Ganthet's powers once Spectre had departed from being seperated with Ha Jordan.

The Rebirth story in it's entirety was more an introspective story of Hal's soul needing to beat Parallax, or rather, it's fears. Which was what his whole run of Spectre was about as well.

Then again you left that theory behind back a while in the thread, and have just made it an attack on The Spectre's character only to the obvious conclusion that Spectre, now is much stronger than he was, due to retcon after Hal Jordan's run as Spectre, having unlocked it's full potential in issue 4. Likewise most all heros are much stronger now than they were back then. Corrigan himself for example seemed to struggle in recreating the universe in Crisis on Infinite Earths, but he did it effortlessly at the end of Zero Hour, and Hal has done it effortlessly since then as well..


Again I ask YOU, where do Ganthet and Spectre's feats even come close to matching up? Fact is, they don't. Spectre is shown regularly to be far beyond Ganthet's powers. No Guardians power matches up.

In Crisis on Infinite Earths, you see Guardians getting wiped out, you see Spectre defeating and banishing the Anti-Monitor, depowering him to a point where heros defeat him, and recreating the multiverse, and it was said the reason he couldn't kill the anti-monitor, was because he'd destroy all the heros and villains that were there saving the day... in Corrigan's mind, this was not an option, apperently, who opted for the previous.

We seen Guardians getting killed in Doomsday Annual 1, The Tales of the Green Lantern Corp miniseries, COIE, The GL volume 2 Crisis crossover issues, and Appa Ali Apsa was killed in The Road Back. And in GL Issue 40, Krona's first story arc ,it is said that the Guardians merely figured out a way to slow the aging process, but weren't immortal. Also, Krona himself killed many Guardians. When was the last time you seen Spectre killed?

If you want to continue trying to understand Spectre, by all means keep posting or ask me in PM or something, but it should be clear that Spectre is far greater than him from comic appearances and feats alone.

Btw, welcome back.

And again, in Green Lantern Corps, "In Blackest Night", Zharan Pel encounters Doomsday ravaging a planet. Doomsday, never having met a Green Lantern before, responded with maddened glee at the challenge. Even when trapped inside a green energy cage, Doomsday is able to burst free and steal Pel's power ring. Pel's masters, the Guardians, intervene but only cause Doomsday to head for their planet, Oa, defeating all the emerald warriors trying to stop him en route. On Oa, the combined power of the Guardians is only able to force the beast to a standstill - until one Guardian sacrifices himself to remove Doomsday's power ring, enabling a final massive assault. In the destructive aftermath, the Guardians fail to notice that Doomsday is not destroyed, but is blasted through a hole in space ... where he lands on Calaton for the first time.only to be defeated by the energy being The Radiant.

Originally posted by Juntai
-- We know that many characters words aren't always true, but you're now saying that DC's Gods weren't aren't true.Yeah, but my side of that argument was one of the Quintessential beings would know what he's talking about as well. But that is dismissed for some reason. I personally don't think they conflict, but if they do in your mind, let's drop this side of the argument and agree that testimony is not enough on its own and must be backed up by evidence.
Originally posted by Juntai
--He is a victim of a retcon multiple times since then, so current Spectre is NOT the same as it was back then. Back then he was considered a manifestation of vengeance, he was depowered in the 1987-1989 series of Spectre, and then had to earn his place back through that series.. fostforward until now, and we know that Spectre is indeed the Logoz, which is a piece of God, as it said itself, and has also been noted for many times throughout DC comics' history. Corrigan used to explain all the time that he could not do things because he couldn't go against the Will of God. Hal, in his series unlocked the full potential of The Spectreforce in his series. Through the Legends of the DCU: Destroyer of World's series and his early apperances as Spectre, and all the way up until early in Spectre v.3 it was described many times that the Spectre was limiting him because if he was still crazy he do what he tried to as Parallax and that no one would be able to stop him.Fair enough, he is indeed a victim of retcons. But as you've conceded later on, he's still a being of magic and magic don't work in the anti-matter universe, so you can't use retcon to explain that away. Furthermore, 'Green Lantern: Rebirth' and 'Day of Vengeance' are both events after your Spectre series established his "true form," so to speak. Yet we see Spectre ineffectual against Parallax in the former and describing himself as a magical being in the latter. Again, you're main crux of your thesis is that, "Since Spectre is revealed to be a piece of God, how can one of God's creations like Ganthet possibly outdo Spectre, a literal piece of God?" Yet we see in 'Green Lantern: Rebirth' and 'Day of Vengeance,' evidence that is exactly indicative of this!
Originally posted by Juntai
--He didn't say that he'd no longer exist, he alluded to the point that he would destroy himself to rid the universe of all things magic, but that still agrees with him being magic as you said-- but it doesn't seem to prove anything.Yes, it does prove something. Magic doesn't work in the anti-matter universe. Spectre isn't ineffectual in the anti-matter universe simply because he is. His impotence results from the failure of magic to exist and/or work in the anti-matter universe in the first place. This is an important point, because another crux of your argument is that the Power of the Guardians doesn't match the feats of the Spectre. Yet, here we have an example where the Power of the Guardians is "better" than the Spectre's. I'll finalize my argument with a list, to not only prove I've got feats to match the Spectre's but even more feats that you can't match.
Originally posted by Juntai
You keep making me defend Spectre in this thread, because of simply a complete lack of knowing his character or reading his comics, but what it comes down to is that this thread is Ganthet vs Spectre, and Ganthet's position in the universe, and the feats his power has accomplished, is nothing next to The Spectre's.

Again I ask YOU, where do Ganthet and Spectre's feats even come close to matching up? Fact is, they don't. Spectre is shown regularly to be far beyond Ganthet's powers. No Guardians power matches up.

In Crisis on Infinite Earths, you see Guardians getting wiped out,... We seen Guardians getting killed in Doomsday Annual 1, The Tales of the Green Lantern Corp miniseries, COIE, The GL volume 2 Crisis crossover issues, and Appa Ali Apsa was killed in The Road Back. And in GL Issue 40, Krona's first story arc ,it is said that the Guardians merely figured out a way to slow the aging process, but weren't immortal. Also, Krona himself killed many Guardians. When was the last time you seen Spectre killed?

If you want to continue trying to understand Spectre, by all means keep posting or ask me in PM or something, but it should be clear that Spectre is far greater than him from comic appearances and feats alone. First off, list of feats compared to one another:

1. Power of Guardians can recreate universe 1. Power of Spectre can recreate universe
2. Power of Guardians can defeat Parallax 2. Power of Spectre can't defeat Parallax
3. Power of Guardians works in anti-matter u 3. Power of Spectre impotent in anti-matter u

That's the first crux of my argument. Pretty much unassailable and you avoid the obvious answer to this that can easily resolve your beliefs and these facts: Being a piece of God does not mean pure omnipotence. This piece of God's power is manifested as magic and sometimes it doesn't work. He's still a piece of God, but limited. You may scoff at this notion of limitations but you already concede an obvious limitation in the first place. He is only a piece of God. Surely powerful,... but as all-encompassing and omnipotent as the whole God? Obviously not.

Second, to address the belief that since none of the Guardians actually did the feats like recreating the universe and whatnot is ridiculous. Why? Because the Power of the Guardians comes solely from them. It is their personal power. The Central Battery's power comes from the Guardians themselves. As such, if they wanted to, they could perform those feats. Of course, they never did. Why? Call it non-interference, who cares. As long as we know that they could do it, that it is within their power, it doesn't detract from my argument. To put it simply, guys with my strength can rip paper apart with bare hands. But I never actually ripped apart paper. So even though I have the strength, simply because I never ripped paper before, we must conclude I can't rip paper. Utterly ridiculous, which is how some of your accusations sound. You should drop the whole, no Guardian ever actually personally recreated the universe. The fact is, we know they could.

Guardians get *****-slapped all over the place? An overstatement. Yes, some of them have died. But you misinterpret 'Crisis.' None of the Guardians were killed by the Anti-Monitor. They are only ambushed and held in stasis by his power. Some sacrifice themselves later on to empower Guy Gardner to carry out a mission in the anti-matter universe. I now have 'Crisis' on my laptop. Additionally, when the Guardians were slaughtered by Hal in 'Emerald Twilight,' they allowed him to do so. They didn't even fight him. More of that non-interference crap going around. Doomsday killed a Guardian? Okay, I believe you. I don't care what context. It's a fact. Apparently, I can kill Spectre as long as I've got the Spear of Destiny myself. Nobody's done it, but its possible, therefore the Guardian's mortality is not an issue since Spectre can be killed as well. The fact that a bunch of Guardians have been killed and Spectre never has been is evidence against the Guardians? Dude... I've been cutting down trees. Me and my friends cut down a whole bunch in forest A. Nobody has ever cut trees down in forest B. From that fact, we must conclude that the trees in forest B are stronger than forest A. C'mon... I don't mean to insult your intelligence with these simple exercises in fallacy, but you keep using them.

The way I see it, this is the way our debate has stacked: 1) I've shown that the Power of the Guardians can match the greatest feats of the Spectre (creating the universe, it doesn't get bigger than that frankly). 2) I've also shown how the Power of the Guardians is "better" than the Spectre's by showing how Spectre has been limited in the very recent past (you have not come up with a logical explanation to this). 3) Your argument about personal feats and mortality is off-point because you're misapplying logic. 4) I've resolved how a piece of God can be limited and fare worse than a creation of God. That's it, man. And before you go off believing that I am dissing the Spectre or trying to shoot down his status as a piece of God. Let me repeat, "I am not." I don't diss the Spectre and I believe he is a piece of God. However, recently his power's manifestation is still limited in ways the Power of the Guardian's isn't. Simple as that. I explained how he could be a piece of God and still be limited. Your belief that these limitations don't apply, fails in the evidence I've provided. Even after the retcons! Face it. I've weathered the best you've thrown at me and you haven't fared as well. How do I some up with a zany idea that Ganthet > Spectre? Well, their powers have both recreated universes (greatest feat we can think of),... but lo and behold, the Spectre's power is limited in ways Ganthet's isn't! Therefore, I conclude that Ganthet > Spectre. What is illogical about that? And if it isn't illogical, but you're still not convinced, then you need to explain why Spectre's power is limited in ways Ganthet's isn't. This is really where you've got to hit me. But I think we both know, it really is unassailable.

I don't have time to break it all down as I have to run off to work in the next 4 minutes, but...
Not just creation of UNIVERSE though, Spectre is accredited with the creation of the MULTIVERSE that Ganthet exists within, in the Guide to the DC Universe. See the difference?
And no Guardian has recreated the universe -- even if it IS a possibility, they never have, so the feat cannot be added to their side. Like I said, Spectre has ALL the feats stacked to his side through all of comic history.

Originally posted by Juntai
I don't have time to break it all down as I have to run off to work in the next 4 minutes, but...
Not just creation of UNIVERSE though, Spectre is accredited with the creation of the MULTIVERSE that Ganthet exists within, in the Guide to the DC Universe. See the difference?
And no Guardian has recreated the universe -- even if it IS a possibility, they never have, so the feat cannot be added to their side. Like I said, Spectre has ALL the feats stacked to his side through all of comic history. Didn't Parallax use the power he stole from the Central Battery to recreate the universe? Why can't I add that to my list? Power of the Guardians was used to recreate universe. It's been conceded that it has that capability by both of us. Don't use your ridiculous technicality that because they didn't, I can't argue like they could. This isn't an argument about feats performed, but about power level and versatility. That's what should be used to decide who outpowers who in this thread. Both of their powers are so great that it isn't about counting up feats anymore. What greater feat is there then recreating the universe!? The highest manifestation of the Power of the Guardians vs the highest manifestation of the Spectre's power. And in that, we tie. BUT, what about the limitation on those powers?

And as far as I'm concerned, this Ganthet existing within while Spectre existing without is weak also. Both the Guardians and Spectre are unique beings. Similarly to Spectre, Ganthet and the Guardians never had a bunch of mirror selves in other multiverses like the rest of the heroes did. They are similarly unique. Let us say that you might be on to something in this distinction. But let me approach it thusly, had the Guardians rallied and confronted Anti-Monitor and won and recreated the universe themselves, then your argument is moot. But we will never know because that is not the way it happened. These events and feats that you use, are useless in our debate on a simple level: we don't know how either would have fared in that same situation.

Did Spectre absorb the Suneater and reignite the sun and undo all the damage on the Earth during 'Final Night' like Hallax did with the Power of the Guardians? No. But he might have. So it's not fair for me to stack this against you.

Did Spectre ever empower countless simple mortals with near limitless power and form a corps to bring order to the entire universe? No. But he might be able to. So its not fair for me to stack this against you.

Did Spectre ever cause the creation of Entropy and cut the universe's lifespan a billion years? No. But he might be able to. So its not fair for me to stack this against you.

So what is fair to mention? Easy. Acts and/or feats in same or similar situations that the two share! Power of Guardians recreated the universe and so did the Spectre. Power of Guardians held up well against Parallax, but Spectre's power did not. Power of Guardians holds up well in the anti-matter universe, but Spectre's power does not. That's why the list is short on my side and you keep spouting off stuff that isn't even addressable. Don't mistake my short list for vulnerability. I'm attempting to create an even and fair playing field. I'm not going to stack the three additional feats against you because Spectre never had a chance to perform those feats! Just like Ganthet and the Guardians never had a chance to throw down with the Monitor! Stick to the issue: Spectre's power is limited in ways the Guardians' isn't. And when you finally realize the inevitable and unassailable truth of that issue, maybe you will concede that on a logical level, my arguments are stronger than yours whether you like it or not.

EDIT: Lastly,... when did Spectre create a multiverse? The multiverse ended in 'Crisis.' I think you typed it wrong. And in essence, it was really the Oan, Krona who created the multiverse.

1. Power of Guardians can recreate universe(the guardians never have, Parallax was destroying barriers that was keeping the universe together then remaking the timeline at Vanishing Point) 1. Power of Spectre can recreate universe
2. Power of Guardians can defeat Parallax 2. Power of Spectre can't defeat Parallax (thats wrong and i dont know why u keep saying it )
3. Power of Guardians works in anti-matter u 3. Power of Spectre impotent in anti-matter u (thats true but magic/power works different in that universe then in the correct u).

The Spectre has also gone up against beings more powerful then Parallax before and are beyond the Universe, Michael and The Beast who is Gods only equal. Parallax and Ganthet are not on those power ranks.

The combined forces of the Guardians couldn't kill Doomsday, what chance is Ganthet going to have?? None dude, come on u say ur not anti-Spectre and ur reading everything we are saying and thinking about it, but ARE U REALLY?? Oh and the Spear of Destiny can kill anyone Yup Anyone. Spectre can die, but it takes alot of fighting and punishment to do it! Or when all the magic in the Universe is gone then Spectre won't be needed and will kill himself, but I dont think thats ever going to happen and if it does it will take forever.

Krona never created the Multiverse, he caused it yes but didn't create it. 2 seperate things. Watching the creation of the Universe messed up the Universe, and created the Multiverse which the Multiverse was never suppose to happen anyway.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
... we all know that Spectre tried fighting Parallax with vengeance. He says it himself below, "I had hoped... to cast vengeance upon it (Parallax) for all the death and fear it spread throughout God's universe." Obviously he failed. At that point, I think it should be obvious to the reader, at least to Hal, that you cannot fight fear with vengeance. Even Spectre couldn't judge Parallax. This is explicit in the storyline because Parallax was gaining in strength the whole time all three were connected together. These are the reasons why I believe that any of your ideas stemming from Hal switching to vengeance are incorrect. I think its a stretch and contradicts several important flashbacks, actions and conversations which are not as ambiguous as the 'Ganthet vs. Spectre garbage.'

Again, ask yourself this question, does what I state, make sense? Here, we have a story of a hero overcoming great fear. He recognizes his greatest fear and fights against a cosmic entity of living fear that threatens the universe. It all comes back to what makes a Green Lantern a Green Lantern and why Hal is the greatest Green Lantern. Abin Sur himself said in the famous origin that "You will overcome great fear." Everything comes back to a beginning, or as aptly titled 'Rebirth.' If this was all about redemption, then 'Emerald Twilight' would have been the end of it. If this was all about vengeance, Hal as the Spectre would have been the final chapter. But its about neither, its about the courage of a hero. Its a simple poetry and quite thematic at times and Geoff Johns pulled it off very well. I hope that I've convinced you that this reading of the story is the most consistent... Obviously, with your last post, I haven't convinced you of my interpretation. So let me go all the way back and attempt to isolate why I believe Spectre was ineffectual against Parallax. This is really more for Juntai's benefit and not yours, since no matter how many times I present it to you and point out your weaknesses and defend against every perceived inconsistency in mine, you simply won't accept it. First off, we know the Guardians beat Parallax at the height of his power near the beginning of sentience. Parallax had nearly consumed the entireuniverse with fear and the Guardians stopped him. There is no way we could interpret that differently. I am convinced of this at the least.

So now... was Spectre ineffectual against Parallax? I believe there is evidence. Forget everything we know of DCU. Act like you've been reading Marvel the whole time and you pick up and start reading 'Green Lantern: Rebirth' as your first comic. First off, Spectre stated his plan was to connect with Hal and burn out Parallax and cast vengeance on him. As is obvious just from the history of when Spectre connected to Hal in the first place, Spectre never followed through on this purpose. Obviously, it follows because he couldn't. That is clear evidence that Spectre was ineffectual against Parallax. Secondly, Parallax's plans to manipulate Hal and the Spectre's powers never abated until Hal started fighting him. That is more evidence. Thirdly, while this is all going on, Parallax states he is too powerful for Spectre and this struggle is depicted as Parallax ripping apart Spectre's corporeal form. How would a first time reader see this? Exactly, as more evidence. Fourthly, Spectre himself asked Hal to help him! When you ask for help, that implicitly means you can't do it on your own. He obviously abandoned his original plan and asked for help. More clear evidence. Hal begins tearing apart Parallax's hold on his own, and is nearly free of him and Spectre helps him after Hal screams for it. More evidence that it really took what Hal did to turn things around and more evidence that Spectre didn't. If Spectre had been tearing up Parallax from the inside the whole time and Hal provided some last irg of power, I could interpret that as Spectre doing most of the work. But it didn't happen that way, in fact the exact opposite happens.

On that evidence, which is solely found within the struggles in the trinity of Spectrehallax, it appears evident that Spectre's power was ineffectual against Parallax. Again, adding to that, it was Hal embracing his greatest fear (watching his dad die) and conquering it, so that fear in any form could never affect him, that truly undid the bond that Parallax had. Again, Parallax's very nature is to leech onto an entity's fears. Because Hal conquered his greatest fear, Parallax could not hold onto Hal. This is the same exact reason why the 5 vets of the GL Corps can overcome the traditional yellow weakness.

Now, I remember your interpretation of this down to the letter. You said it was Hal who refused vengeance that rendered Spectre's power ineffectual. And the switch to vengeance ignited the Spectre's power and Spectre himself was truly responsible for separating Parallax. This could reasonably explain why Spectre never did anything until Hal got into it, and why Parallax had his way with them before Hal switched. Although it never explains why Spectre waited so long to simply tell Hal this until the sh1t hit the fan. BUT... your biggest flaw in this theory, is that the entire theme of conquering one's greatest fear has no place in this interpretation. All Hal really needed to do was think about vengeance and be wrathful against Parallax. Yet, it is clear in his flashbacks and monologues and subsequent conversations, he doesn't dwell on vengeance AT ALL to fight Parallax. He embraces and conquers great fear to render Parallax's influence ineffectual and uses willpower to defeat Parallax both from within and without. If Hal switching to vengeance was the key to victory, wouldn't you expect Hal to think or have monologues about vengeance as a solution? He even dismisses vengeance before and after the separation? You tried to explain this huge flaw as follows:
Originally posted by kevdude
Isn't that what Hal did??? He realized how to fight Parallax using Vengeance. Part of using Vengeance is Fighting and Facing Fear, Face To Face not running away from it.You believe that part of using vengeance is fighting and facing fear... and therefore the whole fighting and facing fear was actually vengeance in a way... You're grasping at straws. There's nothing that indicates this. And it is illogical for you to assume so. Spectre doesn't fight and face fear to be capable of casting vengeance on evil-doers. Fear has nothing to do with wrath or retribution. Maybe by forcing the one being punished to face all his fears and that in itself is vengeful punishment. Yeah, I could see that. But that has nothing to do with what happened within Spectrehallax. Hal didn't harness Spectre's power by making Parallax face fear. It makes no sense, Parallax is living fear itself! You try to cover up this huge flaw on this single point with this interesting but flimsy and unsupported premise. It doesn't work.

If there's no evidence within Hal's flashbacks and monologues before the separation that Hal was switching to vengeance, it probably means that he didn't consider a switch to vengeance as the solution. Since he thought about fear and conquering it and stating fear doesn't have a hold on you, isn't it obvious that was the solution Hal came up with? Given Parallax's nature as a fear leech and Hal's subsequent advice to everyone on how to fight Parallax, there is clear evidence this was Hal's solution. Given that, and observing the ultimate flaw in your theory, I am confident that my interpretation of Spectre being ineffectual holds up. And since we've seen the Guardians fare well against Parallax historically, I've been using that as evidence that in a similar situation with the same enemy, Guardians did better than the Spectre. In fact, Spectre couldn't do much at all. Similar to how his power can't work in the anti-matter universe whereas the Guardians' does.

Ok dude that first paragraph where u think ur right, ur not understanding it correctly. when Kyle was on that planet, the beings on it was scared to see him and his GL Ring. Because they knew the universe was about to end (something that hasn't happened YET). the Guardians of the Universe knew they had to stop it from happening and gathered Willpower while Parallax gathered Fear. they both couldn't destroy each other, but the Guardians was able to IMPRISON him, so not really winning but stalling him for a very long time.

About if me or anyone else was a Marvel reader and just picked up DC Rebirth and read it, if they really READ the comic correctly they would understand it like others on this forum do. It wouldn't really matter if i was knew to comics anyway so thats irrelevant.

Also u don't need to show me pictures of Rebirth, I have the comics in my hands. Why do u show Parallax doing that to Spectre??? trying to make me think Ganthet > Spectre?? Not happening. Why don't u show a picture of Spectre kicking Parallax out of Hal and Hal and Parallax just falling away from Spectre like he was nothing??? Oh wait a minute that wouldn't be good. Why don't u show The Spectre standing with the JSA/JLA and the Corps/w Ganthet and Parallax being kicked out of both Hal and Spectre when Parallax doesn't even dare do anything to The Spectre???? I could imagine if Ganthet didn't need the help of 5 GL's and stood there acting like Parallax was nothing to him, u would be showing pictures of that for sure!

About the end of the universe thing, they could be talking about Infinite Crisis and Parallax being the bad guy, but we don't know yet there is a few others it could be, Imperiex Prime or Anti-Monitor is others it could be.

Id like to say what i think happened with Hal/Parallax/Spectre.

I do think that over time, Parallax influenced Spectre and the way he did things. Most of the time, Hal had control of what he did and as time went on Parallax started putting his own little twist on things. Spectre=Vengeance. Everytime he does seeks it, he creates FEAR in others. Because Parallax lives/powers from that, it made a perfect bond. Like Parallax stated, he was a part of Hal's soul as well as Spectre. In the beginning, Spectre asked Hal to help him fight Parallax because Spectre could only do so much with Hals soul. Hal was the one who was to make the decision on who would be in control. Les remember that Hal never knew the story about Parallax the entity. Spectre said that when he binded to Hal, he hoped to burn out Parallax. That could never be because Spectre=Vengeance which=Fear. Its not because Parallax is more powerful that Spectre. Its like using fuel to put out a fire.

Now with Ganthet being more powerful than Spectre? I dont believe it. I think the Guardin was just talking smack when he said Spectres powersw dwarf the guardians. Do the guardians have the ability to change reality? Just wondering. Why didnt they kill Hal when he first went bad? Ive always wondered that. When Parallax took over Ganthet, i believe he was hoping to be a more powerful being than Spectre which clearly wasnt the case. Maybe because the battle between him and the GL's seemed so easy.

Hal needed to know about Parallax and help Spectre fight him with Vengeance. right after Hal was freed from Parallax and Spectre he told the Spectre to destroy Parallax, Spectre told him not to boss him around and God was calling him home (parallax didn't dare bother Spectre while they was both separated from each other). Onedumb is having trouble understanding Rebirth even though its now 8 pages long and everything has been answered already.

You have to remember that Spectre wouldnt be able to do anything to Parallax only because hes based off dealing Vengeance which causes fear in others.

Like Parallax said, Spectre was a host to him, like Hal was a host to Spectre. As Spectre, everytime Hal delivered vengeance, that would cause others to have fear which fueled Parallax imo. Prime example was Black Hand. Also, when Parallax took over Ganthet, notice how he say "Hungry for you. Victims of fear." "And yet...I sense a worshipper." "A desciple."
Then it shows Batman. Because he like Spectre delivers vengeance which causes fear in the hearts of others.

I still dont think Ganthet is more powerful than Spectre.