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this has been discussed a bit before but its never had its own thread i dont think. ive always wondered about it. i know galactus doesnt really like magic because he doesnt understand it, and hes considered to be the embodyment of the power cosmic. are there any magic weilder out there who could take him on? the marvel universe seems to be based more on science than sourcery so i think the power cosmic is the way to go.

i DID THIS already Dam you
LOL

yeah, your the guy i just read talking about it in a different thread, so i wanted to see if any other people would actually discuss it and give some cool examples of fights between magic users and people who wield the power cosmic.

you mean i inspired you to create a thread

The Power Cosmic is a force that can alter reality, allowing the user to do whatever he/she wants (including breaking the laws of physics) only being limited by how much cosmic energy the character can tap at a time. It seems to be part of the universe itself, and is mostly used by Cosmic Entities.

Magic also appears to be like a form of energy, except that it can defy the laws of physics naturally. However, it does have rules of its own to follow, which vary with the method of invocation, usually in the form of spoken spells. It appears to be present in everything, even living beings. All humans in the Marvel Universe have the ability to use magic, but only if properly trained. Most people are unaware that magic actually works. In addition, powerful magical beings from other dimensions have created specific, extremely powerful magical spells that they allow to be used (often indiscriminately) by those sorcerers who invoke their names. Every 100 years, a contest is held to elect the Sorcerer Supreme, whose job is to keep the universe safe from magical menaces. The current Sorcerer Supreme is Doctor Strange.

i have been thinking about it for a while and did a search and came across your stuff and i thought it deserved its own thread.

PEOPLE KEEP THIS THREAD ALIVE

Cosmic and mystical beings

Abrogate
Adam Warlock with Infinity Gauntlet
Agamotto
Ancient One
Anthos
Anti-Phoenix Force
Asgardian Destroyer
Astaroth
Astronomer
Atum
Blackheart
Beyonder - also called Kosmos, Cosmos and Maker
Captain Marvel
Captain Universe
Celestials - race
Caregiver
Champion
Chronos
Collector
Contemplator
Chthon
Cytorrak
Dark Gods
Death
Deviants - race
Dormammu
Dreamqueen
Ego the Living Planet
Elder Gods
Elders of the Universe - last of their race
Epiphany
Entropy
Eon
Epoch
Era
Eternals - race
Eternity
Explorer
Franklin Richards aka Psi-Lord
Gaia
Galactus
Grandmaster
Gardener
Goblin Force
Hawk God of Arcturus
Hyperstorm
Infiniti
Infinity
Judicator
King Thor
Korvak
Kubik
Living Tribunal
Lord Chaos
Maelstrom with Quantum Bands, Cosmic Awareness, and Anomaly's power; called "Supreme Maelstrom" by fans
Malevolence
Mangog
Master Order
Mephisto
Molecule Man
Monotheistic Gods
Nebula with Infinity Gauntlet
Nightmare
Nth Man
Numinus
Obliterator
Oblivion
One Above All
Onslaught
Origin
Pantheistic Gods
Possesor
Phoenix Force
Protege
Quasar
Runner
Satannish
Set the Serpent God
Shaper of Worlds
Silver Surfer
Spider-Man with the Uni-Power
the Stranger
Thanos with Heart of the Universe
Thanos with Infinity Gauntlet
The One Above All
Trader
Tyrant
Umar
Unbeing
Uni-Lord
Uni-Power
Valeria Von Doom aka Marvel Girl (II)
Void
Vortex
Voyd
The Watchers - a cosmic race
Wolverine with Crystal of Ultimate Vision
Yahweh
Zarathos

I always liked to think of "magic" as a force based on quantum mechanics, whereas cosmic power operates in a more classical fashion. Both can be utilized to achieve similar results; however, I would give the edge to magic because (based on how I'm defining it), it is not limited to the "common" physical laws.

BTW, isn't cosmic power/energy technically mostly protons and other subatomic particles moving close to lightspeed? Not that I wanna be a nit-picker here...

And what about psionics? Perhaps somewhere between the two? As much fun as discussing this stuff is, part of the problem lies in not knowing exactly what is meant when certain terms are used (ie, saying psionic is "mental" or "psychic" just skirts the issue).

psionics is kind a like mind of matter using your minds energy with conjuction of moving atoms IMO

saying mental or physic really isn't psionics in my opinion

Originally posted by Mindship
I always liked to think of "magic" as a force based on quantum mechanics, whereas cosmic power operates in a more classical fashion. Both can be utilized to achieve similar results; however, I would give the edge to magic because (based on how I'm defining it), it is not limited to the "common" physical laws.

BTW, isn't cosmic power/energy technically mostly protons and other subatomic particles moving close to lightspeed? Not that I wanna be a nit-picker here...

And what about psionics? Perhaps somewhere between the two? As much fun as discussing this stuff is, part of the problem lies in not knowing exactly what is meant when certain terms are used (ie, saying psionic is "mental" or "psychic" just skirts the issue). Magic exists outside of quantum mechanics otherwise it would be broken down and utilized by people like Reed Richards or Lex Luthor, who already understand quantum physics..

Magic is also much greater than cosmic.

Originally posted by Juntai
Magic exists outside of quantum mechanics otherwise it would be broken down and utilized by people like Reed Richards or Lex Luthor, who already understand quantum physics..

Magic is also much greater than cosmic.

Maybe in DC but not in Marvel. The most powerful beings in Marvel, Phoenix and LT and the likes of the Infinites are all cosmic and would stomp any magic user.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Maybe in DC but not in Marvel. The most powerful beings in Marvel, Phoenix and LT and the likes of the Infinites are all cosmic and would stomp any magic user. I would consider them above common universal energies, but whatever you say.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Maybe in DC but not in Marvel. The most powerful beings in Marvel, Phoenix and LT and the likes of the Infinites are all cosmic and would stomp any magic user.

Phoenix' original entry in Marvel Handbook said that she could generate any type of energy in any amount. I would assume that includes magic as well.

As far as the LT is concerned, I'm sure his power is both cosmic and magic. He interacts in dimensions that aren't bound by the laws of physics, dimensions where laws are based on magic instead.

So I think it all depends on where the user is, ie what type of dimension, what its fundamental laws are, etc.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Phoenix' original entry in Marvel Handbook said that she could generate any type of energy in any amount. I would assume that includes magic as well.

As far as the LT is concerned, I'm sure his power is both cosmic and magic. He interacts in dimensions that aren't bound by the laws of physics, dimensions where laws are based on magic instead.

So I think it all depends on where the user is, ie what type of dimension, what its fundamental laws are, etc. Agreed.

If it's true that Galactus IS power cosmic, then Magic wins.
Characters like Living tribunal are in a class of their own and should control ALL energies.

LT is cogik !!! cosmical magik !!!

Magical is devoid of any scientific reason at all. It follows no rules but it's own. It's like comparing a pencil to a pen. They both can do many of the same things, but lead is a completely different thing then ink.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Magical is devoid of any scientific reason at all. It follows no rules but it's own. It's like comparing a pencil to a pen. They both can do many of the same things, but lead is a completely different thing then ink.

wrong as always tyrant....magic is energy but it vibrates and exists on higher levels .just like celestial tech....it follows principles but they are beyond our comprehension and non static.

Originally posted by RAGE17
wrong as always tyrant....magic is energy but it vibrates and exists on higher levels .just like celestial tech....it follows principles but they are beyond our comprehension and non static.

Either prove this or stop acting like a retard.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Either prove this or stop acting like a retard.

i dont need to proove it .richards said so himself...and watch ur mouth tyrant...i am not ur average member....different name same person remember that......

Originally posted by RAGE17
i dont need to proove it .richards said so himself...and watch ur mouth tyrant...i am not ur average member....different name same person remember that......

Where did Richards say this? If magic is any form of energy, Galactus could just absorb it. It defies the laws of physics, time, space, and reality as we know it. It abides by it's own laws. Why else could Strange resist the IG?

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Where did Richards say this? If magic is any form of energy, Galactus could just absorb it. It defies the laws of physics, time, space, and reality as we know it. It abides by it's own laws. Why else could Strange resist the IG?

it just exists on higher levels it defies entropy...and the laws of physics.but so does the power cosmic..but we just understand its inner workings but we don't....understand magic.....galactus cannot manipulate it because its not self organized it exists on higher levels of existence and he cannot understand it.

Power cosmic defies no laws. It abides by all the laws.

Show me one thing it does that defies the laws of physics.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Power cosmic defies no laws. It abides by all the laws.

Show me one thing it does that defies the laws of physics.

time travel.....good night tyrant

Reed actually DID say that once, he even made a device that could syphon/absorb it. But, it was never mentioned again...ever.

Time Travel is entirely possible.

What ?? By Magic or PC, pig ??

Both.

Time travel isn't beyond our intelligence, it's just beyond our means as of right now.

Einstein knew of time travel, and it's it's 100% possible. You can travel to the past but not the future, because the future hasn't happend yet.


But, Magic and Power Cosmic can both Time Travel.

IMO, Magic=Science, because they are basically the same thing.

You know, back in the medieval days, they combine magic and science................... thus created ALCHEMY !!!

Indeedy.

Everyone was trying to turn lead into gold. Why don't magic users do that in comics any more?

Some do, for ex = Von Doom, Dr. Doom, Richards arch-enemy, that metal guy with a green cape, Julian McMahon, Doom, .........

Originally posted by long pig
Both.

Time travel isn't beyond our intelligence, it's just beyond our means as of right now.

Einstein knew of time travel, and it's it's 100% possible. You can travel to the past but not the future, because the future hasn't happend yet.


But, Magic and Power Cosmic can both Time Travel.

IMO, Magic=Science, because they are basically the same thing.

cant happen.

if you cant travel to the future, then you cant travel to the past.

Because travelling in the past, you are therefore proof that the universe
up to that time must be pre-set for every single thing to the past point of view. in other words to you - its the past, but to everyone else - its the present knowing about the future. But as you said, that cant happen since anything in the future hasnt happened yet.... . Its a flawed theory.

Why is that flawed?

Because you don't like it? Because it doesn't go with your beliefs?

Time travel is indeed possible, even if it makes you uncomfortable.

Originally posted by ImmortalOne
You know, back in the medieval days, they combine magic and science................... thus created ALCHEMY !!!

actually special relativity predicts time travel to the future which is a fact.

2 watches set to the same time.

1 in a plane or other faster moving object sees less time pass than one on the ground - mad but true - if your wearing the one in the fast moving object you have travelled to the future. This effect becomes more pronounced the nearer you get to C (the speed of light) travel to the futre is easy. I do it everytime I get on a plane.

Travel to the past is theortically possible through a variety of means - big drawback most require huge amounts of energy, the most likely method more than in the whole universe No Timelords in the foreseeable future.

Keep the faith

Stay Whirly

I'm impressed.

It's totally possible, but you'd need a black hole to do it.

Originally posted by Nataku8188
Where did Richards say this? If magic is any form of energy, Galactus could just absorb it. It defies the laws of physics, time, space, and reality as we know it. It abides by it's own laws. Why else could Strange resist the IG?



also the infinity gauntlet was supposed to have control over every aspect of reality. but conveniently magic wasnt part of that. also i was wondering is that why they conveniently trapped odin and the other "gods" on asgard? i believe they had the power to defeat the gauntlet... which is why they were trapped in the first place.

i believe magic operates on higher levels of power.

Originally posted by Whirlysplatt
actually special relativity predicts time travel to the future which is a fact.

2 watches set to the same time.

1 in a plane or other faster moving object sees less time pass than one on the ground - mad but true - if your wearing the one in the fast moving object you have travelled to the future. This effect becomes more pronounced the nearer you get to C (the speed of light) travel to the futre is easy. I do it everytime I get on a plane.

Travel to the past is theortically possible through a variety of means - big drawback most require huge amounts of energy, the most likely method more than in the whole universe No Timelords in the foreseeable future.

Keep the faith

Stay Whirly



IF you believe this i'm adding you to my ignore list... thats rediculous. lol, time travel isnt possible, one way or the other.

It is, man. Open up your eyes maaannn it's all there if you look for it...

Most powerful beigns in MU are cosmic beings so I would go with cosmic.
Tell me which magic wielder could take fully power Galactus, no one.

eternity is said to be the greatest magical being of all. he could whip galactus. odin has said he repelled galactus. thor sent galactus fleeing w/ his godforce blast. the destroyer is a magical being, hes shown to be atleast AS powerful as galactus...

Originally posted by KillAll
IF you believe this i'm adding you to my ignore list... thats rediculous. lol, time travel isnt possible, one way or the other.

just do a google search I just did and heres the simplest site I can find supporting exactly what I said

http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/quran/quran_time.htm

Weird but it even gives a similar account to my own but then most sites will as Albert suggested this stuff almost 100 years ago.

Ignore me but not the father of modern Physics

Keep the faith

Stay Whirly

Correct me if I'm wrong but, Lord Chaos uses Magic and Master Order uses Power Cosmic, right?

Is this something I just made up in my head?


Indeed. Ignore whirly, but not me. Oh no sir. Not me.

it doesnt take that much to send galactus on his way. reletivly speaking of course. he doesnt strike me as the kind of person to fight for a planet when its possible he could use as much power in the fight as he will gain from the planet itself. i think if he sees that there might be a bit of a fight he rather be on his way, there are billions of other planets out there for him. thor could never take galactus one on one. is he has any trouble at all with the surfer galactus is infinitly higher up in terms of power and intellegence.

Originally posted by long pig
Correct me if I'm wrong but, Lord Chaos uses Magic and Master Order uses Power Cosmic, right?

Is this something I just made up in my head?


Indeed. Ignore whirly, but not me. Oh no sir. Not me.

Lots of people ignore me someone else added me to there ignore list yesterday Oh well there loss

that was the dumbest thing i think i've ever read. time doesnt travel faster in a plane than in a car. it will be 5 o'clock here, + whatever time it takes to travel when you reach your destination. unless you count different time zones. which isnt really time travel.


and traveling at the speed of light isnt possible for us. we have to much mass.

ok, let me use your own theory against you. take something that doesnt view time at all (such as a tree, or plant). put it in a shuttle. send it through space. it is gone *our time* for a minute. but its traveling at near light speeds. when the tree returns, it could in theory be full grown because you propelled its mass faster?? do you realize how dumb this is.

----and traveling at the speed of light isnt possible for us. we have to much mass.----

Yes, that's why we'd need something to give us extra power. Like the edge of a black hole.


Timetravel is real, and it happens when you don't know it. Sometimes via worm holes.

complete B.S. wormholes?? define a worm hole...

Well, it's bigger than a bread box....

In physics, a wormhole, also known as an Einstein-Rosen bridge (and less commonly as an Einstein-Rosen-Podolsky bridge or Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen bridge), is a hypothetical topological feature of spacetime that is essentially a "shortcut" through space and time. A wormhole has at least two mouths which are connected to a single throat. Matter can 'travel' from one mouth to the other by passing through the throat.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7b/Wormhole-demo.png/350px-Wormhole-demo.png
The name "wormhole" comes from the following analogy used to explain the phenomenon: imagine that the universe is the skin of an apple, and a worm is traveling over its surface. The distance from one side of the apple to the other is equal to half the apple's circumference if the worm stays on the apple's surface, but if it instead burrows a wormhole directly through the apple the distance it has to travel is considerably less.

A proposed time-travel machine using a wormhole would (hypothetically) work something like this: A wormhole is created somehow. One end of the wormhole is accelerated to nearly the speed of light, perhaps with an advanced spaceship, and then brought back to the point of origin.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d4/Cow_with_calf.jpg/200px-Cow_with_calf.jpg

Due to time dilation, the accelerated end of the wormhole has now experienced less subjective passage of time than the stationary end. An object that goes into the stationary end would come out of the other end in the past relative to the time when it enters. One significant limitation of such a time machine is that it is only possible to go as far back in time as the initial creation of the machine; in essence, it is more of a path through time than it is a device that itself moves through time, and it would not allow the technology itself to be moved backwards in time. This could provide an alternative explanation for Hawking's observation: a time machine will be built someday, but has not yet been built, so the tourists from the future cannot reach this far back in time.

time is really just a concept, we are here in the "present" and always will be. you cannot cut/fold/bend/repeat time. you cannot travel through something that isnt physical. a wormhole cant connect 2 universes. there is only one universe. what does the wormhole cut through? where does the other universe exist, if not inside our own?? it is impossible to have overlapping universes. you cant lay a universe on top of another, when our own universe expandes out in every direction for an infinite distance. does the alternate universe lay inbetween the molecules of ours?? if it does, then why couldnt we see things from this other universe??

Originally posted by KillAll
time is really just a concept, we are here in the "present" and always will be. you cannot cut/fold/bend/repeat time. you cannot travel through something that isnt physical. a wormhole cant connect 2 universes. there is only one universe. what does the wormhole cut through? where does the other universe exist, if not inside our own?? it is impossible to have overlapping universes. you cant lay a universe on top of another, when our own universe expandes out in every direction for an infinite distance. does the alternate universe lay inbetween the molecules of ours?? if it does, then why couldnt we see things from this other universe??

Sorry your wrong my friend

Time Dilation in terms of Special relativity has been proven

Suppose Mary is watching a train go by. On the train is John. Next to him is a "light clock": two horizontal mirrors, one on the train floor and one several feet above it. The mirrors are reflecting a beam of light back and forth. Every time light makes a round trip between the mirrors it counts as one tick of the clock. John's watch is synchronized with this clock. Similarly, Mary has a light clock next to her, and her watch is synchronized with it. As the train moves, John will see no change in the synchronization of his watch with the light clock. And why should he? The light will always move the same distance between the two mirrors, and since its speed is constant, the clock will tick at the same rate.


But Mary sees John's light clock differently. After the light leaves the lower mirror, it must travel a longer distance to the upper mirror because the upper mirror has moved forward with the train (this is, of course, assuming the clocks and watches are very accurate). Similarly, when light bounces back from the upper mirror, the lower mirror will move while the light is in transit, forcing it to travel a longer distance. Since light travels at a constant speed, Mary will conclude that the time it takes to make one round trip between the mirrors--one "tick" of the light clock--will be longer. And John's watch, which is synchronized to the mirrors, will also appear slower to Mary.


Such an effect, of course, is negligible for a real train because light travels so fast. But if John were on not a train but a spaceship going close to the speed of light, this relativistic effect could be significant. Mary would see time slow down for John. She might observe him to be gone for 20 years. But because she also sees time slowing down for him, he may appear to have aged only 10 years when he returns.


This effect has actually been observed, using highly accurate atomic clocks. When two such clocks were synchronized and one was flown on a high-speed airplane, the clock that flew came back to earth running behind its stationary partner.


The crucial factor is how close to the speed of light one is going. The equations of special relativity show that the faster you go, the stronger the effects on time. enjoy

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&q=relativity+time+watches+speed+aeroplane

800 000 internet sites agree

Keep the faith

Stay Whirly

and yes I believe it as its been proven

so if 80,000 websites are made that say pink elephants exist, its true?


what you are saying about light, is just the distance light has to travel for our eyes to see it. its like if i was standing at a star that you would see out in space, and you were here on earth. if the said star exploded, and i witnessed it, then traveled to earth faster than light, to tell you about a star that was "going to explode". in actuality the person on earth would just see what already happened. it just took that long for light to travel to earth to see it. but i would have already witnessed these events. it doesnt change the fact that it happened before. it is like a delayed reaction. its not actually the slowing down or speeding up of time. its just how we percieve the event.

again, let me ask you the original question i would like you to answer. forget clocks. if you put a plant on a shuttle and send it off through space at the speed of light. it all the sudden grows faster because you propelled its mass... faster? doesnt make sense does it.

Originally posted by KillAll
again, let me ask you the original question i would like you to answer. forget clocks. if you put a plant on a shuttle and send it off through space at the speed of light. it all the sudden grows faster because you propelled its mass... faster? doesnt make sense does it.

At the end of the day the views displayed here are those of some of the greatest scientific minds we've ever had. No offence but you're just an average joe who disputes it because you dont understand it. While your opinions are valuable they dont cut it against such opposition and certainly hold relatively little weight in a debate.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
At the end of the day the views displayed here are those of some of the greatest scientific minds we've ever had. No offence but you're just an average joe who disputes it because you dont understand it. While your opinions are valuable they dont cut it against such opposition and certainly hold relatively little weight in a debate.

so does you objection,therefore its irrelevant. no essays please....

its not that i dont understand the opposing side. its just i disagree w/ it. i believe exactly what i've stated. time travel will never be possible... ever. you mind trying to relate (humor me) to me how a tree would grow faster if you propel its mass faster? let me relate to you yet again. IF we could spin the earth at light speed, but keep our bodies stationary, we could grow crops faster??? we could feed everybody that is starving by this simple concept? you see how silly it sounds...

Originally posted by RAGE17
so does you objection,therefore its irrelevant. no essays please....

My objection wasnt here to be counted as a part of this threads debate, it was my take on the situation developing here therefore your post is irrelevant because once again its based on a misinterpretation. Good try tho.

time travel is possible......but u just end up in a parallel universe to ur own.,...so u wont create a paradox by killin ur dad or somethin.........fear me for i am colossus17

i also think that Einstein stated that time TRAVEL was impossible, but time viewing was possible. which would coencide *spelling* w/ what i stated above....

Originally posted by KillAll
i also think that Einstein stated that time TRAVEL was impossible, but time viewing was possible. which would coencide *spelling* w/ what i stated above....

einstein was my grandpa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by KillAll
its not that i dont understand the opposing side. its just i disagree w/ it. i believe exactly what i've stated. time travel will never be possible... ever. you mind trying to relate (humor me) to me how a tree would grow faster if you propel its mass faster? let me relate to you yet again. IF we could spin the earth at light speed, but keep our bodies stationary, we could grow crops faster??? we could feed everybody that is starving by this simple concept? you see how silly it sounds...

you do it everytime you get on a train, plane or fast moving object - no - time is not changing due to light (although it can) it does it due to observance - Study Special Relativity, then you'll get it - its not hard - trust me

Eienstein never stated tt was impossible (its a fallicy) Special relativity is all about time being different at different speeds for the observer - its called "time dilation". I am bored with you now.

Keep the faith

Stay Whirly

Originally posted by RAGE17
time travel is possible......but u just end up in a parallel universe to ur own.,...so u wont create a paradox by killin ur dad or somethin.........fear me for i am colossus17


The going "back in time and killing your grandfather" paradox has been highly contemplated... I personally believe, from a practical standpoint (saying time travel is possible, and saying time travel to the past is possible - even saying hawkings theory stated earlier, that a machine must be built for time travel to happen at all.) That an alternate or parallel universe would not be made because it would take a universally large source of energy to do that. If you could do that, then a infinite amount of universes would be created by just simply time-travelling into the past. Since you would be occupying space/time that has been now changed due to you being there. You cant create a universe out of nothing. Some theorys state there would be a 'time loop', another says that every event that you could do, you could never change the past, and you would end up failing infinitely trying to kill your grandfather - for instance. which I find very theoretical .. I dont feel like crediting sources because im lazy right now lol, but those are all true. Believe me, I am God. Lol.

also, heres a little known fact - when we view galaxies, not only do we see a few millions of light years in distance spanned. But time spanning from one end of the galaxy to the other, viewed by our standpoint, we see the past - im a little shaky on the specifics, but I was in astronomy, so yeah..

Magic should be equal to cosmic in the grand scheme of things. Perhaps on average there are more powerful cosmic users (though I think it's debatable) but magic can have omniversal effects just like the power cosmic. I mean Sise-Neg was able to absorb time and space and create a Big Bang using purely magical energy.