Yoda vs Ulic

Deus Ex

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Well, I'd really rather not see you in that light again. While yes, Nai is biased, his arguments are meant to show something that he deems realistic. I myself dislike the idea that a single being could vanquish the two most powerful Jedi of an era, but I accept it. I think the fanboy statement was a little harsh. True to a point, but not really to the degree that you stressed it.

To be bloody honest, Nai's argument in the Kun versus three PT jedi thread includes Kun sitting there like a moron while the three PT jedi manage to work perfectly to all attack at once and he apparently has no chance because his fighting style is basic and anyone can learn it despite it being relatively unknown but Vaapad is a great unknown and Shatterpoint would allow Mace to contend with Kun while Yod and Dooku would work like "teh perfect team" to keep Kun completely offguard.

Oh, and if Kun uses force powers they must be horribly weak. Nai showed us just how weak every force user before Kun was by saying that blowing up a star is pointless and is more the machine than the man using it. And then if Kun using force lightning it must simply be the same as Dooku's or Sidious' (Despite that fact that greater lightning HAS been shown in the DE series and more) and the others would just easily block it and this wouldn't help Kun at all. He would still die to three lightsabers aimed perfectly at him at the same exact time from which he could not ever ever ever never dodge it.

Seriously... Realistic? Nai Fohl is saying there is absolutely no way Kun can win the fight, period.

While I normally commend him for being smart, educated, and putting forth good arguments, I think his stance on this one is a bit lopsided and he won't even concede when he's blatantly riding on the least likely scenario to make a judgment. I mean, if you want to say "Hey, Kun might be hard pressed here. It isn't 100% in his favor, here's why." Yeah okay. I'll go with that. When you barge in and render absolute judgment on why it just has to be this way and the team you're supporting will act just perfect enough to defeat Kun and there's no two ways about it and then proceed to bash his talents and take him down to Yoda's level (who is your professed favorite character) then...

Then, I think it's a bit overboard. I like Nai, don't get me wrong. I really do. But I think his argument is really, really bias and ridiculous. And I'll stand by that.

Fishy

The thing is, Nai probably doesn't see the power difference the rest see's. Hoping that Kun couldn't be that superior to the PT Jedi. This isn't strange actually when you consider the role Yoda has. He is considered as one of the most powerful, yet still he has many PT that are equal to him.

Meaning that if he really was one of the most powerful the rest would not be equal to him. Its kinda hard to admit to Yoda being weak too, EU is just really overpowered nothing you can do about it. It made the PT Jedi weak, its what peace does to Jedi and Sith, even Jedi like Obi Wan, Mace and Yoda and Sith like Dooku. They are nothing compared to the ancients.

Deus Ex

Definately. This isn't a reflection of our desires; it's the way it is. If we make everything totally subjective and throw logic to the wind, this forum becomes pointless. I might as well hang out in the CVF or the GVF... You should see it... Wolverine and Ryu versus everyone.

Ridiculous.

Admiral Akbar

Yeh......

Kun actually has no chance here...err in the other thread. Yoda and Dooku and Mace would not obliterate or own him, but they would definetly beat him. As expert fighter as he is, 3 best jedi of the PT era would outclass him in saber mastery. All of them together. As for force powers Kun is the ultimate here, but you have 3 powerful force users.
Yoda is not as powerful as Kun with the force, maybe even Yoda and Mace are not as powerful with the force, but Dooku Yoda and Mace ARE more powerful with the force. Seeing how one can force lightning the other one can force push, and another throw an object at him, at the same time. GL deflecting that.

Fishy

Its not one attack thats going at him. Its not impossible to beat back three seperate objects coming at you with different angles and strengths, do not think that these three will become one in this fight. Kun is fighting three weaker people, not a team of people...

He will win this because these people can not and will not work together in a way good enough to beat somebody of his power...

Deus Ex

Akbar, you have an opinion, but you definately don't have a solid stance, I'll tell you that.

Here, read this folks.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/ROTS/Revelations-1.html

DarthMaul9123

if anyone beside luke can beat ulic then prove it

Darth Faunus

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Yeh......

Kun actually has no chance here...err in the other thread. Yoda and Dooku and Mace would not obliterate or own him, but they would definetly beat him. As expert fighter as he is, 3 best jedi of the PT era would outclass him in saber mastery. All of them together. As for force powers Kun is the ultimate here, but you have 3 powerful force users.
Yoda is not as powerful as Kun with the force, maybe even Yoda and Mace are not as powerful with the force, but Dooku Yoda and Mace ARE more powerful with the force. Seeing how one can force lightning the other one can force push, and another throw an object at him, at the same time. GL deflecting that.

This would be an effective argument in some Digimon world where all three could fuse together into some almighty force with the ability to strike as fast as the trio could, had their combined Force powers, and thought like one. No. That happens when you have people so perfectly attuned to eachother that they are two halves of a whole. Or three thirds. And there is no way in bloody hell that these three can do such a thing. It is three inferior warriors against one vastly superior warrior, not the combined power of three good warriors against one good warrior.

Illustrious

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Akbar, you have an opinion, but you definately don't have a solid stance, I'll tell you that.

Here, read this folks.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/ROTS/Revelations-1.html

Some good stuff.

Darth_Glentract

Deus Ex

Mike Wong pwns. He could probably think his way out of the Devil's contract.

Nai Fohl

Well...again one of those fights. I give it 50 / 50 chance for either of them winning:

Ulic:
- was able to stalemate Kun but we don't know how this fight would have ended
- is a exceptional force user
- is an exceptional lightsaber duellist keeping the fact in mind that he was able to outduel a Jedi Knight without having his force powers

Yoda:
- can avoid hits from 3 Jedi Master attacking him with a lightsaber at once
- is very small and fast making it hard to hit him
- has 900 years of experience with a lightsaber and some "frontline" experience against droids and clones

Powerwise I don't think that Ulic can overthrow Yoda, in saberskills they would most likely stalemate each other but seeing that Ulic would most likely posess the better physical condition (especially endurance) he might win that in the end.

offtopic:
Since people again start throwing in critics about my argumentation in the Kun vs Yoda, Mace, Dooku thread again I will explain my point of view so that some people will finally understand it.

I pretty much dislike the idea that the ancient time Jedi would be superior to the PT Jedi because of two very, very simple points:

a) Training time:
If you have a look at the major force users in the TOTJ comics you might simply notice that they all have started training being in a quite advanced age...

Nomi Sunrider was married and had a daughter before she started her Jedi training. The Quel-Droma brothers were already adults before their mother send him to train under Arca Jeth. Aleema and Satal Keto also were adults when they started to learn about the ways of the force (stealing a book from Coruscant). Now what do we have here ? A bunch of little Revans that all can archieve the knowledge in years that others needed decades or even centuries to attain ? Or do they all simply surpass Anakin in terms of midichlorian counts being able to develop their force skills faster ?

The thing is that most things of the EU (alls things pre-Ruusan, most of the past-ROTJ stuff) was written before the PT (or TPM) came out. So the only impression the writers had how long it the training of a force user up to the point he can become a Jedi Knight might take was Luke's training which lasted 3.5 years from "first contact with the force" to "Jedi Knight" status. And still most EU writers gave Luke credit for being something "special" since most of the Ancient force users were either serveral hundret years old (like Yoda) and their students needed years to advance to a point that Luke reached in weeks / months training under Yoda.

The PT pretty much destroyed the concept because now all "powerful" people had to go through 2 decades of training just to become Jedi Knights - far more time than the ancient people have needed as far as we can tell. And thinking about it from the situation like it is now it's very unlikely that the ancient Jedi having that little training would overpower people having 10 or even 100 times there experience in terms of lightsaber combat and force use.

b) Actual power:
If you go through the comics the ancient Jedi appear quite weak. Take Arca Jeth as an example. He's another one of those ancient Jedi Masters with serveral hundrets years of experience and he gets killed by battledroids ! Freaking battledroids ! Something that normal Jedi Knights of the PT era can kill dozens of (unless being Niman practioners) and he trained people like Ulic (who had his force powers stripped of by Nomi Sunrider - something that needs 3 Jedi Masters to do with the Exile, and was killed by a single guy with a blaster - ok he had no force powers any longer but he was able to outduel another Jedi in a lightsaber fight).

If you read through the biographies of those poeple and compare them to the ones of the PT people it seems stupid. Take Nadd as another example. Nadd was about to become a Jedi Knight when he went dark side. Why should he be stronger in terms of force powers than Jedi Masters going dark side (like Dooku) ? Why should he outclass people in lightsaber combat that had 10 times more time training with that weapon.

In conclusion: If you put the ancient time characters above the PT ones you have to assume that all the ancient Jedi could develop skills (in force powers and lightsaber combat) far faster than the PT Jedi because otherwise the whole history of the SW universe wouldn't make sense any longer. We know that the Jedi stored all knowledge they did archieve in the last 25,000 years so the PT era people would have access to the very same things the ancient Jedi would have access too. It makes sense for the Sith to lose knowledge (because killing their masters before having learned anything from them) but that doesn't make sense for the Jedi.

And because of that I would find it very hard to believe that an ancient Jedi would be superior to a PT Jedi. Ancient Sith are a different thing but here again: Ulic had a pretty tough fight with his brother Cay (as far as I remember) and Cay being a Jedi trained for 10 or 15 years. Now cut Cay out of this fight and throw Mace Windu in for example (who has 50 years of experience in lightsaber combat and force use and is naturally gifted with both) - Would Ulic still win ? Maybe...but nowhere close to doing it "easily". And now (developing that idea further and come back to the topic of the critic): If Ulic can't kill Mace Windu "easily" and on the other handside was able to stalemate Kun - how would Kun be able to obliterate Mace and how would Kun be able to defeat 3 people being on Mace his level (thereby quite close to Ulic) ?

Now you might get the idea why I deemed it impossible for Kun to defeat Dooku, Mace and Yoda at once. Each on them on their own - yes. All three together ? No.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
"Wars not make one great."
He put up a good fight, but lost? Maybe he would beat yoda, but not kill him in 5 seconds.

Being great and being powerful are two different things. Hitler was more powerful than Plato, but I would argue that Plato is greater.

Ulic never lost to Exar. Do some research please. If you read it, it says they were EVENLY matched, not, Exar was better and Ulic was just staying alive. Sure evenly matched might not be an exactly true statment, but it is meant to show that the fight was very close and could have gone either way. Remember, Ulic has one of Freedon Nadd's Sith Amulets, greatly enhancing his power. I don't belive anyone said Ulic would beat Yoda in 5 seconds.

Deus Ex

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...again one of those fights. I give it 50 / 50 chance for either of them winning:

Ulic:
- was able to stalemate Kun but we don't know how this fight would have ended
- is a exceptional force user
- is an exceptional lightsaber duellist keeping the fact in mind that he was able to outduel a Jedi Knight without having his force powers

Yoda:
- can avoid hits from 3 Jedi Master attacking him with a lightsaber at once
- is very small and fast making it hard to hit him
- has 900 years of experience with a lightsaber and some "frontline" experience against droids and clones

Powerwise I don't think that Ulic can overthrow Yoda, in saberskills they would most likely stalemate each other but seeing that Ulic would most likely posess the better physical condition (especially endurance) he might win that in the end.

offtopic:
Since people again start throwing in critics about my argumentation in the Kun vs Yoda, Mace, Dooku thread again I will explain my point of view so that some people will finally understand it.

I pretty much dislike the idea that the ancient time Jedi would be superior to the PT Jedi because of two very, very simple points:

a) Training time:
If you have a look at the major force users in the TOTJ comics you might simply notice that they all have started training being in a quite advanced age...

Nomi Sunrider was married and had a daughter before she started her Jedi training. The Quel-Droma brothers were already adults before their mother send him to train under Arca Jeth. Aleema and Satal Keto also were adults when they started to learn about the ways of the force (stealing a book from Coruscant). Now what do we have here ? A bunch of little Revans that all can archieve the knowledge in years that others needed decades or even centuries to attain ? Or do they all simply surpass Anakin in terms of midichlorian counts being able to develop their force skills faster ?

The thing is that most things of the EU (alls things pre-Ruusan, most of the past-ROTJ stuff) was written before the PT (or TPM) came out. So the only impression the writers had how long it the training of a force user up to the point he can become a Jedi Knight might take was Luke's training which lasted 3.5 years from "first contact with the force" to "Jedi Knight" status. And still most EU writers gave Luke credit for being something "special" since most of the Ancient force users were either serveral hundret years old (like Yoda) and their students needed years to advance to a point that Luke reached in weeks / months training under Yoda.

The PT pretty much destroyed the concept because now all "powerful" people had to go through 2 decades of training just to become Jedi Knights - far more time than the ancient people have needed as far as we can tell. And thinking about it from the situation like it is now it's very unlikely that the ancient Jedi having that little training would overpower people having 10 or even 100 times there experience in terms of lightsaber combat and force use.

b) Actual power:
If you go through the comics the ancient Jedi appear quite weak. Take Arca Jeth as an example. He's another one of those ancient Jedi Masters with serveral hundrets years of experience and he gets killed by battledroids ! Freaking battledroids ! Something that normal Jedi Knights of the PT era can kill dozens of (unless being Niman practioners) and he trained people like Ulic (who had his force powers stripped of by Nomi Sunrider - something that needs 3 Jedi Masters to do with the Exile, and was killed by a single guy with a blaster - ok he had no force powers any longer but he was able to outduel another Jedi in a lightsaber fight).

If you read through the biographies of those poeple and compare them to the ones of the PT people it seems stupid. Take Nadd as another example. Nadd was about to become a Jedi Knight when he went dark side. Why should he be stronger in terms of force powers than Jedi Masters going dark side (like Dooku) ? Why should he outclass people in lightsaber combat that had 10 times more time training with that weapon.

In conclusion: If you put the ancient time characters above the PT ones you have to assume that all the ancient Jedi could develop skills (in force powers and lightsaber combat) far faster than the PT Jedi because otherwise the whole history of the SW universe wouldn't make sense any longer. We know that the Jedi stored all knowledge they did archieve in the last 25,000 years so the PT era people would have access to the very same things the ancient Jedi would have access too. It makes sense for the Sith to lose knowledge (because killing their masters before having learned anything from them) but that doesn't make sense for the Jedi.

And because of that I would find it very hard to believe that an ancient Jedi would be superior to a PT Jedi. Ancient Sith are a different thing but here again: Ulic had a pretty tough fight with his brother Cay (as far as I remember) and Cay being a Jedi trained for 10 or 15 years. Now cut Cay out of this fight and throw Mace Windu in for example (who has 50 years of experience in lightsaber combat and force use and is naturally gifted with both) - Would Ulic still win ? Maybe...but nowhere close to doing it "easily". And now (developing that idea further and come back to the topic of the critic): If Ulic can't kill Mace Windu "easily" and on the other handside was able to stalemate Kun - how would Kun be able to obliterate Mace and how would Kun be able to defeat 3 people being on Mace his level (thereby quite close to Ulic) ?

Now you might get the idea why I deemed it impossible for Kun to defeat Dooku, Mace and Yoda at once. Each on them on their own - yes. All three together ? No.

Well, this is much better than I had expected. A few thoughts:

- Blame EU inconsistancies for everything. The late coming of the PT really helped this.

- It is not likely that much information from 4,000 made it to the future era. For one, Ossus was destroyed. Dantooine was razed to the ground and the information either lost, stolen, or both. Malachor V is likely to be destroyed (Yes, it's Sith, but still, my point). Korriban was razed and raided. The jedi order itself was nearly elminated shortly after the time of Exar Kun. Really, some of the havens for Jedi knowledge include (presumably) Coruscant, a few select places, and Telos in Atris' sanctuary. Everything else was wiped out. To say the PT jedi must have had all the comprehensive knowledge from before is like saying the British museum should have damn near every piece of jewelry and pottery from ancient Egypt. There are so many places it could have been lost entirely.

- This isn't my opinion, but you mentioned something about midi-chlorians and the ancient jedi being trained; well, midi-chlorians are apparently genetic. Families of strong Force connections existed frequently back then, and there didn't appear to be apprehensions about having children, marrying, etc.

Well, as of KOTOR II, the jedi were nearly wiped out. Major bloodlines with high midi-chlorian counts ceased to exist. Now I'm going out on a limb here, but it would make sense that stronger Force users ceased to exist in large numbers beyond this time period, or perhaps at all. That might be why Anakin was such a prodigy, and by all accounts he was artificially made by the Sith (If you don't believe in this theory, fine. I do.)

So you see, it IS possible that stronger Force users existed in the past. You just brought up a decent argument as to why they would.

Darth_Glentract

Janus, you forgot that the Republic had to be basically rebuit from the ground up 1000 years earlier. You can expect a ton of knowledge to have been lost in that too.

Deus Ex

True there. But why did the Republic have to reform at that point again?

Darth_Glentract

They were devastated by 1000 years of constant war before that. They also sent almost every Jedi alive to Ruusan and all the Jedi were killed there.

Deus Ex

Damn. That makes the liklihood of Jedi having lots of ancient knowledge very unlikely. So far, if I'm assuming this much, the major high count families were wiped out and the knowledge was lost. The PT jedi are effectively working on a thousand years of new jedi training.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Deus Ex
- Blame EU inconsistancies for everything. The late coming of the PT really helped this.

Yes. The late coming of the PT helped this a lot. But we have to deal with the inconsitancies somehow. Now the thoughts of most EU writers (at least Anderson who did the back story of Kun and the TOTJ) were that Luke has to be one of the strongest force users developing faster than anyone else. You have inconsistancies even in the developing of both Skywalkers seing that it took Anakin 10 years to become a Jedi Knight where it took Luke 4 years.

The question is how much can characters develop their skills compared to Luke / Anakin if Anakin is said to be the most powerful force user ever (raw potential - fact given by Lucas) ? Basically Anakin was lacking of maturity and not force powers therefore it took him longer to become a Jedi Knight compared to people who started training while already being adults (like Luke). So we can assume that the required force powers can be learned quite fast at least by people like Luke / Anakin. But how much power can people with less raw potential (as far as it's told) develop in less time ?

The main archieves of the Jedi Order where always located on Coruscant. We know that the Sith wiped out the Jedi (Nihilus did much of the work - Sion's assasins did some too). But the archieves on Coruscants where never touched as far as we know. Would make no sense if you keep in mind that the Jedi always were closely related to the Republic and Coruscant was the Republics capitol planet and it never fell until the Yuuzhan Vong attack.

You are right. There were families with strong connections to the force (e.g. the Quel-Droma family) and maybe some of them ceased to exist in KotoR times. But from Kotor times on you have 3,000 years to the PT where such bloodlines could have grown again since their were no apprehensions about having children and marrying until the Ruusan reformation.

And as far as we know even in those times two force users having children was quite an exception. Nomi Sunrider wasn't a Jedi when she married her husband. The farther of Ulic and Cay also wasn't a force practioneer. Yet even families that only contained of force users (the entire family of the rulers of Onderon contained of dark side practioners for 300 years) didn't spawn overpowered beings (if compared to the PT Jedi).

Arguing like this you can also say that the concept of Midichlorian testing was developed somewhere between KotoR and PT times making the Jedi able to do some mass recruitments in the systems belonging to the Republic - thereby recruiting "strong" force users in unbelieveable masses which would leave the PT Jedi being the "top of billions" while the ancient Jedi were just discovered by coincidences.

Darth_Glentract

This is probabyl BS, but I heard somewhere that the Durron family is a decendent of the Droma family. Can anyone confirm this? Seems shaky to me.

The Jedi also lost all of the knowledge on the Chu'unthor when is crashed on Dathomir(Yoda didn't feel like killing them over a few books, I guess). There was something else I was going to add, but I forgot it.

Deus Ex

I've heard that before, but I don't remember where.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Good question. But do Luke and Anakin really outrank prodigies and adult jedi like Corran Horn, Ulic or Nomi SUnrider when the two became jedi knights?

Can we tell ? What we can say is that Anakin was able to pacify planets where Ulic failed at the same task on Onderon. Hell...you have Ulic running into a city that is in the grip of the darkside for three centuries and he doesn't even realize it. He was standing at the side of a Sith Witch (Queen Amanoa) and having her command him around to act very not-Jedi-like and didn't realize that fact where Anakin knows when he crosses the Code somewhere or somebody is acting against it.

So Anakin seems to be more skilled than Ulic in terms of "being a Jedi" and that says a lot keeping in mind who Anakin is.

They used to store some stuff on Ossus, yes. But we know that a great amount of knowledge must have been on Coruscant since it's later used by Palpatine (e.g. the Holocron of Vodo). So they did lose some knowledge but if you just have a look at the size of the archieves (compare the ones on Dantooine with that what is shown on Coruscant) it seems that the PT Jedi actually had more knowledge to access than the people in ancient times had. At least they had twice or four times the knowledge that was stored on Dantooine and we know that this was enough to spawn Revan.

This is:
a) Assuming that their were "stronger" bloodlines in the past than theire are in the PT and this is what it is: an assumption.
b) Assuming that the Sith assasins kill everyone. In fact they "missed" Katarr and entire planet filled with force users and they "missed" the Jedi Masters hiding. In fact their could be hundrets or even thousands of Jedi left after the Sith War if they did hide on similar places than the Masters did. We know Bastilla is still alive in KotoR II times and we also know that their are still characters that can develop into powerful Jedi (e.g. the Handmaiden, Atton) not to mention characters we don't know (until now) what happened to them (Revan, the Exile).

Imagine somebody like Revan with all his knowledge participating in the rebuilt of the Jedi Order after the Sith War. Imagine all the knowledge stored on Telos being used (we know that the pre-Ruusan Sith brotherhood was started by somebody that stole a Sith Holocron from the Jedi Archieves on Coruscant). The PT Jedi could have posessed far more knowledge than you think they have and most likely they had - at least they had everything archieved from KotoR II times on.

Now I have to correct you again:
First: of course the Jedi (meaning two Jedi) could have children but where would that lead ? They can only receive 50 % of the genes from their parents (each father and mother) so if you take two force users having a midi-chlorian count of 3000 each their children would again have a midi-chlorian count of 3000 (1500 + 1500)at max. That leads exactly nowhere.
Second: The descendants of Nadd weren't Nadd's children. They simply used Nadd's teachings. So this has nothing to do with "blood". I was simply saying that if you take two force users their children won't be more powerful than the parents. On Onderon it worked like that:
Force sensitive father + force sensitive mother = force sensitive children, then that children again married force sensitives. In fact that can lead to children not having any force powers...seen as the daughter of Ommin and Amanoa (Galia) didn't seem to have any force powers.

There is...Qui-Gon told Shmi that if Anakin would have been born in Republic space the Jedi would have found him. That implies that they tested many or maybe even every child born in Republic space for their midi-chlorian count.

Your proof for that being ? With millions of worlds to protect the Jedi could instantly send 200 Jedi to Geonosis. You have more Jedi there than there were present at the attack on the Star Forge. Even to destroy Kun the Jedi only send "hundrets" and not "thousands" of force users and that was a battle they planed before. Saying that the PT order is smaller than the ancient order seems to be very farfetched for me.

Again because they didn't grow up on Republic worlds. Mace Windu was found on an ass-backward planet, same goes for Anakin. All other "major characters" were found in republic space and were trained from infancy on (Qui-Gon, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Dooku).

Maybe it was the flaw to not send him to the Agricultural Corps thinking of the "what ifs". What if Qui-Gon had a stronger (force power) Padawan on his side when facing Maul ? What if a stronger force user (or Qui-Gon himself) would have trained Anakin.

If they were able to find every being powerful enough to become a Jedi Knight within Republic space (Qui-Gon said this), keeping the fact in mind that there are millions of planets some of them having more than one force user shown in the PT (Corellia, the homeworld of Yoda and Yaddle, Iridonia) that will result in the PT Jedi being the top of millions.
Hell...they had enough people to sort many of them out to serve in the Agricultural Corps - doesn't that fact make you think ?

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
This is:
a) Assuming that their were "stronger" bloodlines in the past than theire are in the PT and this is what it is: an assumption.
b) Assuming that the Sith assasins kill everyone. In fact they "missed" Katarr and entire planet filled with force users and they "missed" the Jedi Masters hiding.

They missed three out of hundreds, if not thousands. They did a better job than Palpatine in fact. And Nihilus got Katarr.

Illustrious

And yet, when a Sith came knocking, they didn't know what to make of it. When the clone wars started, hundreds of Jedi fell because they weren't prepared for full-scale combat and much preferred diplomacy. There are a fair amount of evidence suggesting the Jedi grew weaker over time, not stronger.

That's not how hereditary works. You're right, the offspring will have 50% of its genetic material from each parent, but you can't simply roughly translate the midichlorians from one to another. Yes, having powerful parents will make you far more disposed to having great power yourself, but it is far from a guarantee, many of the greatest Jedi come from lowly backgrounds and born to force insensitives, and offspring of jedi aren't guaranteed to be great Jedi, and sometimes their bloodlines won't resurface until later generations.

Hereditary is too complex a science to assign it a 50/50 and a number.

Testing every child would be impractical. It's more likely that he was referring to Anakin being a slave in Hutt Space, where credits and Republic law don't really apply.

Deus Ex

Can we tell ? What we can say is that Anakin was able to pacify planets where Ulic failed at the same task on Onderon. Hell...you have Ulic running into a city that is in the grip of the darkside for three centuries and he doesn't even realize it. He was standing at the side of a Sith Witch (Queen Amanoa) and having her command him around to act very not-Jedi-like and didn't realize that fact where Anakin knows when he crosses the Code somewhere or somebody is acting against it.

So Anakin seems to be more skilled than Ulic in terms of "being a Jedi" and that says a lot keeping in mind who Anakin is.

Yeah, Anakin knows the code. And he violated it at every turn. And the ENTIRE PT JEDI ORDER was practically having tea with one of two sith lords of their time and -they- couldn't even sense his deceipt! Come on now.

They used to store some stuff on Ossus, yes. But we know that a great amount of knowledge must have been on Coruscant since it's later used by Palpatine (e.g. the Holocron of Vodo). So they did lose some knowledge but if you just have a look at the size of the archieves (compare the ones on Dantooine with that what is shown on Coruscant) it seems that the PT Jedi actually had more knowledge to access than the people in ancient times had. At least they had twice or four times the knowledge that was stored on Dantooine and we know that this was enough to spawn Revan.

This operates on the assumption that these archives were entirely jedi-related. The Jedi order at Coruscant taught children from birth. This includes math, diplomacy, history, etc. The size of the archives isn't reflective of what specifically is within. You can have the largest library in the nation, but to say that people living near it have more knowledge in say, military history as opposed to a group of people who have access to a smaller library that is more military history than general material. The point is, Ossus is noted for Jedi lore, and Dantooine was said to be a terrible loss of jedi knowledge and artifacts. I don't see any real reason to assume that Coruscant is better than those in knowledge.

This is:
a) Assuming that their were "stronger" bloodlines in the past than theire are in the PT and this is what it is: an assumption.

Seems reasonable. Force users in the past are incredibly strong compared to PT era counterparts and as you've said with relatively little training. It would make sense that they have higher midi-chlorian counts then those after them, since this is something that dilutes with the natural flow of time and events. I'd say it's a reasonable assumption.

b) Assuming that the Sith assasins kill everyone. In fact they "missed" Katarr and entire planet filled with force users and they "missed" the Jedi Masters hiding. In fact their could be hundrets or even thousands of Jedi left after the Sith War if they did hide on similar places than the Masters did. We know Bastilla is still alive in KotoR II times and we also know that their are still characters that can develop into powerful Jedi (e.g. the Handmaiden, Atton) not to mention characters we don't know (until now) what happened to them (Revan, the Exile).

You prove to me there are hundreds or thousands of surviving jedi and I'll take this into consideration.

Imagine somebody like Revan with all his knowledge participating in the rebuilt of the Jedi Order after the Sith War. Imagine all the knowledge stored on Telos being used (we know that the pre-Ruusan Sith brotherhood was started by somebody that stole a Sith Holocron from the Jedi Archieves on Coruscant). The PT Jedi could have posessed far more knowledge than you think they have and most likely they had - at least they had everything archieved from KotoR II times on.

This needs to be proven effectively. I don't see it based on what I've seen here and what has been presented. Instead of you -assuming- they must have knowledge from KOTOR II times on, you should work better to convince me of this. ANd the rest of us.

Now I have to correct you again:
First: of course the Jedi (meaning two Jedi) could have children but where would that lead ? They can only receive 50 % of the genes from their parents (each father and mother) so if you take two force users having a midi-chlorian count of 3000 each their children would again have a midi-chlorian count of 3000 (1500 + 1500)at max. That leads exactly nowhere.

More numbers bullshit. Nai, do you not understand that there are no exact figures and sciences for this kinds of situations? You're the same person who tries to tell me Luke is 25% Force. Hell, he looks pretty tangible to me.

Second: The descendants of Nadd weren't Nadd's children. They simply used Nadd's teachings. So this has nothing to do with "blood". I was simply saying that if you take two force users their children won't be more powerful than the parents. On Onderon it worked like that:
Force sensitive father + force sensitive mother = force sensitive children, then that children again married force sensitives. In fact that can lead to children not having any force powers...seen as the daughter of Ommin and Amanoa (Galia) didn't seem to have any force powers.

They're not his children? Then why the hell was I under the strong impression that Freedan Nadd's descendants ruled the planet for what? 500 years? Did they do that by ... not having his genetic material? And let's hear this- you PROVE to me that genetic Force abilities don't fade with time. You SHOW me how the children of Ommin and Amanoa are clearly not possessing of Force powers and that they are not Force sensitive. Then tell me exactly how it is that Nadd's line got weaker if this isn't the case?

There is...Qui-Gon told Shmi that if Anakin would have been born in Republic space the Jedi would have found him. That implies that they tested many or maybe even every child born in Republic space for their midi-chlorian count.

No, it doesn't. It implies the liklihood of the jedi finding him would have been higher. He doesn't say explicitly that they ran mass recruitment and if that's your stance you need to prove up.

Your proof for that being ? With millions of worlds to protect the Jedi could instantly send 200 Jedi to Geonosis. You have more Jedi there than there were present at the attack on the Star Forge. Even to destroy Kun the Jedi only send "hundrets" and not "thousands" of force users and that was a battle they planed before. Saying that the PT order is smaller than the ancient order seems to be very farfetched for me.

Assumption # 1- The 200 jedi had to do with jedi being spread out to cover and protect millions of solar systems. Despite claims that Coruscant is the cetralised focal point of the jedi order, somehow they were able to field 200 jedi from -other- locations.

Assumption #2- That we actually saw every jedi in the Star Forge scenario. The battle -was- ragingin on for the time it took Revan and his crew to tromp through the place.

Again because they didn't grow up on Republic worlds. Mace Windu was found on an ass-backward planet, same goes for Anakin. All other "major characters" were found in republic space and were trained from infancy on (Qui-Gon, Yoda, Obi-Wan, Dooku).

I already addressed this.

Maybe it was the flaw to not send him to the Agricultural Corps thinking of the "what ifs". What if Qui-Gon had a stronger (force power) Padawan on his side when facing Maul ? What if a stronger force user (or Qui-Gon himself) would have trained Anakin.

Where did this come from? My point was that despite their supposively iron-clad testing procedure, they actually DID send one of their best Jedi to the Agricultural Corps. Qui-Gon rescued Obi-Wan from there and he became one of the most important jedi in the PT era. Yeah, oops.

If they were able to find every being powerful enough to become a Jedi Knight within Republic space (Qui-Gon said this), keeping the fact in mind that there are millions of planets some of them having more than one force user shown in the PT (Corellia, the homeworld of Yoda and Yaddle, Iridonia) that will result in the PT Jedi being the top of millions.
Hell...they had enough people to sort many of them out to serve in the Agricultural Corps - doesn't that fact make you think ?

Assumption #1- They had the means and clout, and manpower to find -ever- single being powerful enough to become a jedi before they were "too old" to become one.

Assumption #2- There was only one Force user found by the jedi. Thus, there can only be that one on that planet. The blood test doesn't lie, you know. And they can administer it to billions of people. Really.

Assumption #3- The size of the Agricultural Corps.

Way to go there.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Illustrious
And yet, when a Sith came knocking, they didn't know what to make of it. When the clone wars started, hundreds of Jedi fell because they weren't prepared for full-scale combat and much preferred diplomacy. There are a fair amount of evidence suggesting the Jedi grew weaker over time, not stronger.

The ancient Jedi needed hundrets of beings to overcome Nadd and Kun - really stronger than the PT ones ? They preferred diplomacy - what did the ancients do ? Prefer wars ?
Hell...Arca Jeth being one of the most powerful beings in ancient times was killed by battledroids. Do you want to argue that he was stronger than Yoda ? The entire order in KotoR times was wiped out by some Sith Assasins and one single Sith Lord - again did the do better than the PT Jedi ?

You have very few "top of the line" force users (like Nomi Sunrider) now throw them into a fight with PT "top of the line" force users. Personally I don't see Nomi outduelling Dooku, Mace or Yoda.

I know that this isn't how herditary works exactly but it doesn't work like Janus seems to think about it either (force user + force user = more powerful force user, done over generations = over powerful force users).

Impractical ? Testing a child only takes seconds where would that be "impractical" ? You take a blood sample and check it for medi-chlorian count and if the count is above a certain number the child is powerful enough to become a Jedi. Now tell me where this would be "impractical" ? And why the hell would the Jedi not do that if they want to train every force with a potential that is great enough to develop into a threat ?

Darth_Glentract

I know that this isn't how herditary works exactly but it doesn't work like Janus seems to think about it either (force user force user = more powerful force user, done over generations = over powerful force users).

(There is this square thing that they use, but you have to trace back through every generation to get it really accuret. It takes a lot of time and there isn't enough actual Star Wars to do this. Wait 100 years when they've made Star Wars as detailed as real life.

Impractical ? Testing a child only takes seconds where would that be "impractical" ? You take a blood sample and check it for medi-chlorian count and if the count is above a certain number the child is powerful enough to become a Jedi. Now tell me where this would be "impractical" ? And why the hell would the Jedi not do that if they want to train every force with a potential that is great enough to develop into a threat ?

(You need to realize that even if the actual testing of a child only takes a few seconds, they can't get to everyone child in that amount of time. Even if they did it at the extreme speed of 1 every minute for each person, then it would take at MINIMUM 68,493 years to test every three generations if that was all that every Jedi did all the time. And they wouldn't be anle to train all them, because they would be testing others. It is cleary impractical to test everyone.)

(68,493 years in also assuming that every person in the galaxy was killed by the Yuuzhan Vong, as that is the best estimate to the number of people alive in the galaxy. The true number is most like several times this. Remember, 68,943 years for every 100 years of people, or however long the average lifespan of the aveage galatic citizen is.)

Deus Ex

The ancient Jedi needed hundrets of beings to overcome Nadd and Kun - really stronger than the PT ones ? They preferred diplomacy - what did the ancients do ? Prefer wars ?
Hell...Arca Jeth being one of the most powerful beings in ancient times was killed by battledroids. Do you want to argue that he was stronger than Yoda ? The entire order in KotoR times was wiped out by some Sith Assasins and one single Sith Lord - again did the do better than the PT Jedi ?

And you have the entire PT jedi order being killed by Clone troopers and a half-rate Sith lord and his barely-jedi knight pawn. Please. Don't oversimplify things to garner support.

You have very few "top of the line" force users (like Nomi Sunrider) now throw them into a fight with PT "top of the line" force users. Personally I don't see Nomi outduelling Dooku, Mace or Yoda.

Define "top of the line" before we get into your opinion and wordplay here, Nai.

I know that this isn't how herditary works exactly but it doesn't work like Janus seems to think about it either (force user + force user = more powerful force user, done over generations = over powerful force users).

WTF? Did you misunderstand me like eight times today or what? I said force users bloodlines get WEAKER with time, not stronger. Even if they keep it in the family, it probably increases the chance of force sensitivity but it sure as hell does become an exact number science like you insinuate. If that were true, no child in our world could ever mentally surpass his parents, right?

Impractical ? Testing a child only takes seconds where would that be "impractical" ? You take a blood sample and check it for medi-chlorian count and if the count is above a certain number the child is powerful enough to become a Jedi. Now tell me where this would be "impractical" ? And why the hell would the Jedi not do that if they want to train every force with a potential that is great enough to develop into a threat ?

There are MILLIONS of star systems!

Billions of people on one planet!

Who the hell is gonna stick every kid on each planet and whisk them away for jedi training? Answer me that please!

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Deus Ex
This operates on the assumption that these archives were entirely jedi-related. The Jedi order at Coruscant taught children from birth. This includes math, diplomacy, history, etc. The size of the archives isn't reflective of what specifically is within. You can have the largest library in the nation, but to say that people living near it have more knowledge in say, military history as opposed to a group of people who have access to a smaller library that is more military history than general material. The point is, Ossus is noted for Jedi lore, and Dantooine was said to be a terrible loss of jedi knowledge and artifacts. I don't see any real reason to assume that Coruscant is better than those in knowledge.

Oh great. Dantooine's archieves are filled with Jedi lore, so are the ones on Ossus but the main archieve on Coruscant only has math, diplomacy and historical stuff on it - same things that were taught on Ossus and Dantooine.
Why would the archieves on Coruscant would be bigger if they not stored Jedi lore in it ? The general informations had to be accessable on Dantooine too.

*cough*
Again...Anakin is the person with the highest midi-chlorian count ever (fact given by Lucas) and after 10 years of training (being twice of what some of the ancient people had) he wasn't able to overcome Dooku. Now...what does that tell you ?

You prove to me they all were killed...this again leads nowhere...

Assuming they had knowledge from KOTOR II times on ? Where should they have lost the knowledge from KOTOR II times on since there was only the archieves on Coruscant left and they were never touched from KOTOR II times to PT times ?

You better proof to me Nadd had children...oh...
Most likely the "strongest" persons simply took over when Nadd was killed. Do you really think the Jedi would have left Nadd's children alive or on the planet to rule it after exterminating Nadd ? Most likely not...
Show you that the children of Amanoa and Ommin weren't force users ? Gilia (their daughter) hasn't shown any force use being around twenty years old. Talia (Gilias daughter - ruling Onderon in KotoR II) also didn't show any force powers.

The fact that they (instantly) mobilized an amount of Jedi that is close to the amount the ancient order send to confront Kun (where they had time to plan that attack) makes it very unlikely that the ancient Order is greater than the PT one.

We saw only one Master (Vandar) being present where you have the entire council raiding Geonosis. We only saw a few Jedi (hell...it's even said that there are only a "few" Jedi present) and now you want to tell me that there is an unseen strike force of thousands of force users somewhere despite the fact that we hardly saw a dozen of Jedi in that battle ?

They don't have to use manpower since midi-chlorian testing can be easily done by machines. Take a blood sample and test it. This can be done to every new born child if you want it without needing a single Jedi in that process.

See above. Since we never get the number of force users being around in the PT there could be dozens of "force users" per planet. The question is: Are they strong enough to become Jedi (we saw that all Koruuns were force sensitive but only Mace Windu was trained - as far as we know).

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Deus Ex
There are MILLIONS of star systems!

Billions of people on one planet!

Who the hell is gonna stick every kid on each planet and whisk them away for jedi training? Answer me that please!

Simply testing childrens blood when they are born. Doing exactly the same thing most hospitals in industrial countries are doing to newborn childs ? I must be really totally out of my mind assuming that they can do a simple bloodtest to a newborn child having DROIDS doing all the medical work...

Deus Ex

Oh great. Dantooine's archieves are filled with Jedi lore, so are the ones on Ossus but the main archieve on Coruscant only has math, diplomacy and historical stuff on it - same things that were taught on Ossus and Dantooine.
Why would the archieves on Coruscant would be bigger if they not stored Jedi lore in it ? The general informations had to be accessable on Dantooine too.

First, Ossus was considerable. It -was- noted for housing jedi lore in particular. A lot of it. And good quality stuff too.

Dantooine was small, yes. It was not likely to have been built for long term jedi raising. Then again, perhaps it was. It's in-game size might not be honestly reflective of it, since it's also depicted in SW Galaxies and other places.

And my point is you need to prove just what the jedi archives consisted of in the PT era on Coruscant. By all accounts large portions of knowledge were lost over the years and the jedi order itself lost many members in Ruusan. This needs elaboration, not assumption.

*cough*
Again...Anakin is the person with the highest midi-chlorian count ever (fact given by Lucas) and after 10 years of training (being twice of what some of the ancient people had) he wasn't able to overcome Dooku. Now...what does that tell you ?

*Cough* Learn to think outside of the box, Nai. Anakin has the highest midi-chlorian count in the PT era!. You find me an exact quote where Gl says Anakin has the higest count ever, of all time, including EU, and I'll eat this point right up, okay?

You prove to me they all were killed...this again leads nowhere...

"The jedi are all but extinct..." Narration from KOTOR II.

Assuming they had knowledge from KOTOR II times on ? Where should they have lost the knowledge from KOTOR II times on since there was only the archieves on Coruscant left and they were never touched from KOTOR II times to PT times ?

Again, this operates under the ASSUMPTION that A) the Coruscanti archives were comparible to what they are in the PT times as of KOTOR II's end, B) nothing happened to them before this time period, or during say, KOTOR III, and C) this is sufficient knowledge to make the PT jedi better than those before them.

You better proof to me Nadd had children...oh...
Most likely the "strongest" persons simply took over when Nadd was killed. Do you really think the Jedi would have left Nadd's children alive or on the planet to rule it after exterminating Nadd ? Most likely not...
Show you that the children of Amanoa and Ommin weren't force users ? Gilia (their daughter) hasn't shown any force use being around twenty years old. Talia (Gilias daughter - ruling Onderon in KotoR II) also didn't show any force powers.

Damn, you set yourself up something good. First, you don't even know if Nadd's children were hidden or left alone or what, do you? Second, Luke didn't show ANY force powers at twenty either, and he's a friggin' forcegod in the future. So yeah, nice.

The fact that they (instantly) mobilized an amount of Jedi that is close to the amount the ancient order send to confront Kun (where they had time to plan that attack) makes it very unlikely that the ancient Order is greater than the PT one.

So two hundred jedi that were able to be mobilized in the time it took the Jeid order and the Republic to field enough Clone troopers, ships, manned crews and whatnot to attack Genosis is impressive enough to think that they were equal to the ancient jedi order that was able to defeat navies of Sith lords, huh? Yeah, sure. Nice one.

We saw only one Master (Vandar) being present where you have the entire council raiding Geonosis. We only saw a few Jedi (hell...it's even said that there are only a "few" Jedi present) and now you want to tell me that there is an unseen strike force of thousands of force users somewhere despite the fact that we hardly saw a dozen of Jedi in that battle ?

I never implied there were thousands of jedi, Nai. I also don't recall the phrase "there's only a few jedi present", so that requires verification. And lastly, I'm logically pointing out that because we didn't see more jedi there doesn't mean that they weren't there. The Star Forge is huge, you know. Like, big? Also, we have no idea how many jedi were in Vandar's ship or the others, do we? huh.

They don't have to use manpower since midi-chlorian testing can be easily done by machines. Take a blood sample and test it. This can be done to every new born child if you want it without needing a single Jedi in that process.

Prove this, Nai. Prove to me there was some readily accessible machine on even -half- of the millions of star systems in the SW galaxy and that the denizens of each planet used them and all the good viable jedi went straight to Coruscant and became uber PT era jedi. Prove up.

See above. Since we never get the number of force users being around in the PT there could be dozens of "force users" per planet. The question is: Are they strong enough to become Jedi (we saw that all Koruuns were force sensitive but only Mace Windu was trained - as far as we know).

Indeed, that is the question. But a better one is "Do you really think the PT era Jedi were so efficient and had the means to find each and every good jedi? And assuming for the sake of argument they do, does this mean jack shit when we all know that Force sensitives of presumably higher power were elminated in the hundreds, thousands even?"

Darth_Glentract

There are FAR more people in the Star Wars universe. Droids cost money, and the Senate was greedy. Why should they spend money on testing everyone?

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Dantooine was small, yes. It was not likely to have been built for long term jedi raising. Then again, perhaps it was. It's in-game size might not be honestly reflective of it, since it's also depicted in SW Galaxies and other places.

It was built for long term Jedi raising. Malak, Revan and the Exile were all trained on Dantooine.

Why is that so hard to understand. There is basic knowledge that would be stored in that archieves (history, geography etc.) - the same stuff being stored on Dantooine too since they did train Jedi there the same way they trained Jedi on Coruscant.
Now the Archieve on Dantooine is clearly smaller than the one we saw on Coruscant (AotC) - now the things seen in AotC isn't even all the Jedi had. There is a special archieve that is only accessable if you reach master status (told in the ROTS novel)
Of course the size and the things stored there are unknown. What we know is that this archieve contained descriptions of ancient force techniques (Morichu - used by Yaddle for example) and with the fact that there was no knowledge lost from KotoR II times on (except a single Sith holocron - the things on the Chu'unthor were copies) they must know about every single thing used from that time on.

Lucas clearly said that Anakin would have become the most powerful force user ever - how often do you want to argue that ?

That's what Sion said - the same person that thought the Exile was the only Jedi left when those masters were still around and Bastilla too.

There wasn't anything happen to the archieves from KotoR II times to the PT times because Coruscant was never attacked. Who should have attacked Coruscant or mess around with the archieves having no Sith until 2,000 BBY (from KotoR times on) and considering the fact that Coruscant was never attacked from KotoR II to the PT era.

You can't even prove that Nadd had children (yes...suddenly Sith Lords are falling in love and produce children...this has never happened before but of course it's true for Nadd) so why even talk about it ? Yes...Luke didn't show any force powers but Luke didn't grow up in a family of force users like Gilia (growing up with Ommin and Amanoa) or Talia (growing up with Gilia assuming Gilia had some force powers).

Navies of Sith Lords ? Where ? Did I miss something ? I was talking about that the ancient Jedi send hundrets of people to deal with a major threat like Kun (so they would most likely have send everything they had) when they had the time to plan their attack where the PT Jedi did attack instantly without having much time to plan.

And are you talking about the ships that already where manned with Clone Troopers when Obi-Wan left Geonosis (you can see that) ?

Vandar commands the Jedi to protect the Ebon Hawk. You can see a few Jedi starfighters moving in (6 or 12) some of them get destroyed by frontal fire from blaster canons (must be great force users though) and then the only other are those we see inside the SF (which might also be the same that entered the SF on the sides of the Ebon Hawk since they are in the same hangar).

a) They have the computers needed on a goddamn star ship from Naboo (seen in TPM). Why would the not have that stuff in a hospital ?

b) Why would the people on Republic planets not use machnines installed by the Jedi considering the fact that the Jedi were well respected at that time. If the Jedi say "test the children" they will most likely test the children. Why would they not ? It's a bloodtest not an organ transplantation.

c) As I already said. The needed midi-chlorian count might be somewhat rare (and I call 10 in 6 billions - for example - rare) still there would be quite some force users with the needed midi-chlorian count.

Force sensitives of presumably higher power ? Name one single ancient Jedi Knight being more powerful than Mace or Yoda and keep in mind that Arca Jeth - being one of the most powerful - was killed by battledroids. Seems I need some enlightment here...

D_CP

So... I want to hear your opinion Deus Ex, who would win, Yoda or Ulic? Explain.

Deus Ex

It was built for long term Jedi raising. Malak, Revan and the Exile were all trained on Dantooine.

Proof of this? In fact, I didn't see a single child on the planet. And all three of them were trained on Dantooine, eh? Well, there's evidence of the exile being trained here, yes. The droid's recording. Then again, it's entirely possible that the droid was at another academy elsewhere. All we see are two figures. More likely than not it's at Dantooine, but really... who cares? The point is, you haven't shown me how the archives of Coruscant make PT era jedi know all, like you claim.

Why is that so hard to understand. There is basic knowledge that would be stored in that archieves (history, geography etc.) - the same stuff being stored on Dantooine too since they did train Jedi there the same way they trained Jedi on Coruscant.
Now the Archieve on Dantooine is clearly smaller than the one we saw on Coruscant (AotC) - now the things seen in AotC isn't even all the Jedi had. There is a special archieve that is only accessable if you reach master status (told in the ROTS novel)
Of course the size and the things stored there are unknown. What we know is that this archieve contained descriptions of ancient force techniques (Morichu - used by Yaddle for example) and with the fact that there was no knowledge lost from KotoR II times on (except a single Sith holocron - the things on the Chu'unthor were copies) they must know about every single thing used from that time on.

This is ridiculous. Am I to believe that the jedi successfully kept knowledge and data from right after KOTOR II and they amassed enough to being these mega badasses, as you claim? The entire problem with your stance on the PT jedi, Nai, lies in your inability to prove exactly -what- they know. We already have seen them in action, both in the movies and in the novels, comics, etc. By all accounts they have gotten weaker over the years. And if anything, living for a thousand years complacent, not having to deal with the Sith (Which they thougth extinct even) would make one soft. And it did. The jedi were slain because they let their guard down and they were not good enough. Period. Now, seeing as these Pax Republica Jedi are inferior (and aside from grasping at straws you have not proven otherwise) how can they possibly kill ancient Sith? Ancient Sith are better than their ancient jedi counterparts by far! How does this add up?

Lucas clearly said that Anakin would have become the most powerful force user ever - how often do you want to argue that ?

I'm arguing YOU. Provide the official source for us to see. I can just as easily claim that GL said Yoda is half monkey, but if I can't prove GL said it and people can verify its every word, why the hell am I gonna sling it around, trying to prove my stance and convince people? Nai, am I supposed to take your word for it that you know GL's word exactly and that it totally elminates the possibility for anyone having more potential and power beyond Anakin? Does this totally elminate any chance of their being NJO Luke or Ragnos or anything simply because of this statement? No, sounds like a serious cop out to me. You want to prove your case, start by providing the proof first. All I've seen out of you is assumptions, conjectures, and nothing behind it.

That's what Sion said - the same person that thought the Exile was the only Jedi left when those masters were still around and Bastilla too.

Hm. So the narration to the game, which is in Sion's voice (and perhaps even from his standpoint) said "The jedi are all but extinct" and he missed the Exile (Which is ridiculous, because in the narration he points out that the exile is the last one) and Bastila and Revan are possibly Jedi -or- Sith and presumably beyond the OUter Rim or even dead (Since no one knows) so this suddenly opens up what? Thousands upon thousands of amazing jedi who were smart enough to hide and last forever and pass their seed on to make the PT era jedi more badass? Please. Get real. This is folly at its height.

There wasn't anything happen to the archieves from KotoR II times to the PT times because Coruscant was never attacked. Who should have attacked Coruscant or mess around with the archieves having no Sith until 2,000 BBY (from KotoR times on) and considering the fact that Coruscant was never attacked from KotoR II to the PT era.

Proof of Coruscant not being attacked in the time span from KOTOR II (About 4,000 years before the battle of Yavin) and the PT era? Honestly, Nai... I sure hope you have something other than your good name to back this one up.

You can't even prove that Nadd had children (yes...suddenly Sith Lords are falling in love and produce children...this has never happened before but of course it's true for Nadd) so why even talk about it ? Yes...Luke didn't show any force powers but Luke didn't grow up in a family of force users like Gilia (growing up with Ommin and Amanoa) or Talia (growing up with Gilia assuming Gilia had some force powers).

First point, the idea of Onderon's descendants being of Nadd's bloodline I'm quite sure is accurate, and I'm gonna go out of my way to prove this to you. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it. Simple. Point being, if Nadd had children who carried on the bloodline, and they were strong, but not as strong as him, it's just another instance of force sensitivity getting weaker over the years. And no, Sith don't "fall in love and produce children" any more than tyrants and evil kings produce heirs. Don't be silly. You know exactly what I mean and if you don't, you should learn to examine things more closely. You've already mistaken my words enough tonight.

Second, then it's very likely they weren't A) force sensitive enough or B) perhaps like Illustrious said, it skipped a generation. Either scenario is entirely true, and in particular the first one bodes quite badly for your badass super PT jedi, since Force sensitivity seems to get weaker with time and dilution.

Navies of Sith Lords ? Where ? Did I miss something ? I was talking about that the ancient Jedi send hundrets of people to deal with a major threat like Kun (so they would most likely have send everything they had) when they had the time to plan their attack where the PT Jedi did attack instantly without having much time to plan.

First, you're assuming without any basis or factual grounding that the "hundreds" they sent after Kun were all they had. Second, the idea that the PT jedi did this instantly is ludicrous; they had to scramble fighters, ship crews, arm and get the clones into formation, have a basic plan of attack, etc. Hell, considering how long it takes for Anakin to get to Genosia from Tatooine (same day travel despite being halfway across the galaxy) it's entirely possible the jedi brought two hundred jedi from the temple and met up with the clones elswhere. This is even more plausible when you consider that all of the council jedi (well, more or less) where there. Since they are on Coruscant as shown before, how is this impressive for them that they can load up two hundred jedi.

Really, what I'm wanting to know is how they managed to ready the Clone army that fast. It's unrealistic.

Vandar commands the Jedi to protect the Ebon Hawk. You can see a few Jedi starfighters moving in (6 or 12) some of them get destroyed by frontal fire from blaster canons (must be great force users though) and then the only other are those we see inside the SF (which might also be the same that entered the SF on the sides of the Ebon Hawk since they are in the same hangar).

Point being, this doesn't preclude numbers being absent neccessarily, and this proves jack **** all for anything you've been arguing. So why bother with it?

b) Why would the people on Republic planets not use machnines installed by the Jedi considering the fact that the Jedi were well respected at that time. If the Jedi say "test the children" they will most likely test the children. Why would they not ? It's a bloodtest not an organ transplantation.

I don't care how feasible you think this is in your wildest dreams. I want you to PROVE IT, Nai. Show something for your views, don't just throw them out there and say "oh great, *cough* erm... sigh... this is how it is. I swear! Honest!" You're entire argument has nothing substantial behind it and it only gets worse when you'll argue the little parts but ignore key questions and fail to provide proof.

c) As I already said. The needed midi-chlorian count might be somewhat rare (and I call 10 in 6 billions - for example - rare) still there would be quite some force users with the needed midi-chlorian count.

And this is shown/proven/hinted at where?

Well, I found the evidence that the rulers of Onderon ARE Nadd's descendants...

The Jedi continued to learn more of Iziz's dark secrets. They learned it was under the pall of the dark side. Four hundred years earlier, a Sith student named Freedon Nadd brought the power of the dark side to Onderon, and his descendents included King Ommin and Queen Amanoa, whose forms were riddled with the dark side.

Source: Starwars.com (Ulic's profile)

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Deus Ex
The point is, you haven't shown me how the archives of Coruscant make PT era jedi know all, like you claim.

The point is that NJO Luke only used parts of those archieves (in fact very small parts) and developed into a force god. Now people using the same stuff (and even more of it) have actually no knowledge. That fits how ?

Oh great. You can't even prove what Ragnos can do but still think he's superior to anyone else. You can't prove what force powers Kun, Nadd or Sadow can use in a battle but still they must be superior to anyone else because they're ancient Sith Lords. And again...you can't proof that the ancient Jedi are superior in one single aspect to the PT Jedi but they must be - because for the single reason that they have lived 4,000 years earlier. Your point being what ? That I can't tell what the PT Jedi exactly know where you can't tell what the ancient Jedi / Sith did exactly know - this again leads nowhere...

Oh yes. Now people get weaker all over a sudden, because there are no "Sith" around. There where still other conflicts Jedi participated in (Stark Hyperspace War / Battles against Mandalorians) and by the skills they displayed so far (movies, EU) there is exactly nothing that makes them look inferior to the ancient Jedi.

Again you are acting totally out of any logic. The Jedi that were slain used a style with many flaws in fighting circumstances and you can see enough ancient Jedi getting slain even worse. Your point being here ? That ancient and PT Jedi can die in stupid ways ? And the ancient Sith ar by far better than their Jedi counterparts ?
Tell me how Ulic (being a Sith) first had a tough fight with Cay (being a Jedi Knight) and than got his force connection removed by Nomi Sunrider (another Jedi) if he's "better by far". How did they capture Ulic on Coruscant if he's "better by far" ?

Oh great. Now I'm a liar. Read the interview with GL in "Vanity fair" (February 2005) and you might find the line there if not it's either from theforce.net / starwars.com or the Star Wars Insider. I don't write down my sources for quotes somewhere since I'm not used to throwing faked quotes into somewhere.

Now the idea of Anakin simply being the guy with the greatest potential eliminates the chance of NJO Luke (who is Anakin's son having less potential than Anakin) or Ragnos despite the fact that Anakin never developed into full potential ? Great logic, Janus.

a)
From Sion's point of view all Jedi except the Exile are killed. That's why he was hunting the Exile.

b)
The lightside ending of KotoR is canon so Revan and Bastilla are Jedi in the end. And you're simply ignoring facts. You can see Bastilla and Carth talking on Telos in KotoR 2 and it's a fact that Revan went alone to face the Sith Empire.

There is no indication for Coruscant being attacked in that entire time. You have no Sith around until 2,000 BBY and those never attacked Coruscant (up to 1,000 BBY) and after them there was a time period up peace (to the PT era).

Only proven events that could have had an effect on the archieves would have been:

a) Ulic's attack on Coruscant - pre KotoR
b) Empire taking Coruscant over - past PT
c) Rebel Alliance / New Republic retaking Coruscant - past PT
d) Yuuzhan Vong attack on Coruscant - past PT

So it's quite easy to think about Coruscant never being attacked between KotoR II and PT times when we have never seen the planet being attacked from the beginning of the Republic to the point Ulic attacked it (21,000 years) and in the time period between KotoR II and the PT. It the most fortified planet in the entire Galaxy and since Ulic with the aid of the Mandalorians failed to sucessfully attack the planet what the hell makes you think there could have been an attack past KotoR II times ? Who should have done it ?

Even if the Onderon Royal family are descendants of Nadd's bloodline that exactly proofs what considering the fact that we don't know who he had children with ? You're mixing different bloodlines for 300 years and than come up with the conclusion that one of them got weaker - sure it got because mixing it with others. How much ? You have no idea. In fact Amanoa and Ommin still seem to be quite powerful considering the facts that Amanoa fooled Ulic and Ommin kept Arca Jeth as a prisoner with his force powers alone.

And let's have a look at other families: Vima Da-Boda is a direct descant of Nomi Sunrider (7 generations) and was a Jedi Knight in times of the Clone Wars (she is around in the DE comics). Serra Keto (another Clone War Jedi) seems to be a descendant of the Keto family. Actually both didn't seem to have lost much of the force powers their ancient familiy members have shown...

In fact you're now saying that the universe started with uber-powerful-force users everywhere and since their bloodlines got weaker the ancient Jedi must be more powerful than the PT Jedi ?
So please tell me how somebody like Ragnos can exist with that theory. The most powerful being in the Sith Empire just popped up out of nowhere after 20,000 years of "force potential degeneration" ? Hell...Ajunta Pall must be the uber asskicker if his bloodline and those of his fellow Dark Jedi spawned something like Ragnos after their bloodlines had 20,000 years to get weaker.

Nai Fohl

The "hundreds" (quote from the JA trilogy) where most likely everything they could have send. Why would they not send anyone possible there ?

You don't get my idea.

a)
The fighters, ship crews, armed clones and anything else were ready. You can see that in AotC when Obi-Wan is on Kamino. He watches the clones entering one of those capital ships. What do you think they're doing there "And now: All people enter the Ship. Fine. And now all people get out of it again. And back into it. And out....I love clones..." ?

b)
Tatooine and Geonosis being on different sides of the Galaxy ? In fact they are very close to each other same counts for Kamino. If you don't thrust me (because I'm a notorious liar nowadays) have a look at this map:
http://www.starwars.idv.tw/starwarsgalaxy.jpg

c)
Coming back to my basical idea. How would the PT Jedi be able to mobilize 200 people instantly (as they did) when the PT Jedi Order is smaller than the ancient Jedi Order (who did never mobilze more than hundrets of people even against major threats like Kun when they had the time to plan their attack). See...you are simply assuming the ancient Jedi Order was bigger without having any proof for it and while pretty much everything contradicts that oppinion.

The clone army was ready and when you have a look at the distance between Kamino and Geonosis compared to the distance between Geonosis and Coruscant they could have easily commanded the Clone Army to Geonosis and launch an attack fast. Keep in mind that the Millenium Falcon needed only 7 hours to cross the distance between Tatooine and Alderaan this could have been done quite fast.

What the hell ?
They have the machines needed for midichlorian count testing installed in a goddamn starship (TPM) - must be totally uncommon technology if they put it into a starship like a radio being put in cars in our times. Must be something nobody in space had ever came across except the people on Naboo who can build stuff like that into their goddamn starships where it would be most likely not ever be needed. Yes...that sounds completely logical to me. Lmao.

And then we have Qui-Gon:
"Had he been born in the Republic, we would have identified him early, and he would have become Jedi, no doubt..."

Oh yes...that should have been: "Had he been born in the Republic we maybe would have identified him at some time in his life because we have to search all the millions of planets with our bare hands to find some force sensitive people with one Jedi being responsible for 1000 star systems (since their are so few of us). And if some force sensitive with Anakin's potential get's lucky we MAY find him to train him to become a Jedi but I'm not entirely sure."

Does that interpretation fit your idea how "finding force sensitive beings" works ?

No...despite of the fact what kinds of force user we can see in the PT. For example their are 3 Zabrak force users shown in the PT era (Agen Kolar, Eeth Koth and Darth Maul), 4 if you count Kadrian Sey. Well...how many people live on Iridonia ?
We have two people from Yoda's homeworld on the TPM council. We have two people from Shili (Shaak Ti and one of the Younglings that can be seen in AotC). We have two people from Mirial (Luminara Unduli and Bariss Offee) and we have Stass Allie and Adi Gallia who are cousins.

So we have enough examples for multiple force users coming from a single planet in the same time period.

And I'm still waiting that you give me the name of one single ancient Jedi that is more powerful than Yoda or Mace...must be an easy thing to do if all ancient Jedi are uber-powerful force users compared to the PT ones.

Deus Ex

The point is that NJO Luke only used parts of those archieves (in fact very small parts) and developed into a force god. Now people using the same stuff (and even more of it) have actually no knowledge. That fits how ?

Well, for one thing, NJO is a certified forcegod. That's apparent. We can see it. But you, you're claiming the PT jedi are something more than what we see. Specifically, that they have amazing saber skills better than anyone else; more knowledge of the Force (despite earlier Force users like Kreia using far more in their bag of tricks); the ability to work perfectly (better even than older eras of jedi) to fight wars and enemies and such despite never having a use for it. I mean, come on, Nai... you're talking about an era where there is one guy who practices the true saber-to-saber style. Just one. This is not an era of war-oriented, battleready and Sith slaying jedi. Period. The difference between NJO Luke (Which is stupid, but I've ranted about this before) and your idea of the PT jedi being great is.... there's actual instances of NJO Luke doing such things. All instances of the PT jedi's powers and abilities are before us, too. Guess what? Nothing impressive.

Oh great. You can't even prove what Ragnos can do but still think he's superior to anyone else.

This is obvious, Nai. I'd think with you being the ultimate logician you'd realize this: the narration in the Tales of the Jedi comics label the ancient Sith as "godlike" (Yes, that's the exact term.) and that Marka Ragnos ruled over these godlike Sith for a century and a half. Seeing as how we like to employ Occum's Razor when it can be applied, it's more reasonable to assume he was the best of the best (Which it even says IN narration) then to assume he wasn't worth nothing. If you're arguing otherwise, you need to get proof. Bad example, Nai.

You can't prove what force powers Kun, Nadd or Sadow can use in a battle but still they must be superior to anyone else because they're ancient Sith Lords.

Nai, this is obvious. Sadow, Kun and Nadd all displayed Force mastery and feats that couldn't be replicated by anyone in the PT. Period. No one in the PT could destroy a star system nor even hinted that they knew how. No one in the PT era ever had a hundred jedi and a Republic fleet sent after them before. No on else usurped the role Dark Lord of the Sith despite having severe, cutthroat competition. It's only natural that these Sith contained amazing power well above the PT era force users. And since to imply otherwise begs for proof, I'll let you work on that.

And again...you can't proof that the ancient Jedi are superior in one single aspect to the PT Jedi but they must be - because for the single reason that they have lived 4,000 years earlier. Your point being what ? That I can't tell what the PT Jedi exactly know where you can't tell what the ancient Jedi / Sith did exactly know - this again leads nowhere...

You know, I'm not entirely certain if we were even on the same page... I was speaking of force users in general from an earlier period were much stronger, but if you want to go the whole jedi order angle, fine. Let's look at this:

- Jedi from an earlier time period accomplished much with little training.
- Jedi from an earlier time period showed abilities that PT era jedi never showed (Such as battle meditation, Nomi stripping the Force from Ulic, etc.)
- Jedi from an earlier time period turned the tide of the ground battle when Sadow attacked (Golden Age of the Sith comic series)
- Jedi from an earlier time period spawned Sith demigods like Kun, Nadd, and Ulic.
- Jedi from an earlier time period fought Sith and dark jedi by far more than the PT era jedi.
- Jedi from an earlier time period were more knowledgable in Makashi and in general with the lightsaber styles (Kreia, the KOTOR era jedi masters for example)
- Jedi from an earlier time period served under different mentors at different times, with far more chances to battle training and experience, had a wealth of jedi lore to pour over, and were more likely than not possessing of great Force sensitivity which was removed from the galaxy after the Great Sith War, the Jedi Civil War, and the Battle of Ruusan, in which many jedi died and their bloodlines ended.

Oh yes. Now people get weaker all over a sudden, because there are no "Sith" around. There where still other conflicts Jedi participated in (Stark Hyperspace War / Battles against Mandalorians) and by the skills they displayed so far (movies, EU) there is exactly nothing that makes them look inferior to the ancient Jedi.

First, what is there in the Stark Hyperspace War that compares it to anything from an earlier time? I mean, technically there hasn't been a full-scale galactic war since before the refromation of the Republic (Which was 1,000 years before Yavin), so this Stark Hyperspace War wasn't on par with the wars of yesteryear. Second, what specifics do we have of this war? Did the jedi help? Lead from the front? Lead from behind the lines? Even ignite their lightsabers? DId they use amazing Force powers that they didn't use in the movies or the EU sources? What does-this- prove, besides nothing?

Again you are acting totally out of any logic. The Jedi that were slain used a style with many flaws in fighting circumstances and you can see enough ancient Jedi getting slain even worse. Your point being here ? That ancient and PT Jedi can die in stupid ways ? And the ancient Sith ar by far better than their Jedi counterparts ?

You were the one who started poo-pooing the deaths of Arca Jeth. And no, not just the Niman users died stupidly, Nai. Jedi masters on the council of the PT era got creamed by clone troopers. So yeah, where was that great power at? Odun-Orr and a few other jedi cut a swath through the forces of Naga Sadow in that war, despite being heavily outnumbered and the Sith lord using illusionary tactics. Odun-Orr, mind you, who more often than not had his nose in a book. And I'd like to point out that the troops of Sadow employed lots of melee weapons, too, and were more likely than not trained for minor sith civil wars and the like.

Tell me how Ulic (being a Sith) first had a tough fight with Cay (being a Jedi Knight) and than got his force connection removed by Nomi Sunrider (another Jedi) if he's "better by far". How did they capture Ulic on Coruscant if he's "better by far" ?

It even says on Starwars.com in his profile that Nadd said Ulic would be "one of the greatest". If he has a rough fight with someone of his bloodline, I'm not going to say "omfg he sucks". And to be completely fair, there are no specifics put forth on how Nomi did it. And they captured Revan too. Does he suck, Nai?

Deus Ex

Oh great. Now I'm a liar. Read the interview with GL in "Vanity fair" (February 2005) and you might find the line there if not it's either from theforce.net / starwars.com or the Star Wars Insider. I don't write down my sources for quotes somewhere since I'm not used to throwing faked quotes into somewhere.

No, I didn't say you were a liar, Nai. I said you need to show me the exact quote. For all I know (or anyone else knows) you could be inaccurate, wrong, or lying. Either scenario is entirely possible. If you want to take it personally when I ask for proof (and when I have given YOu proof for my claims in our arguments) you need to learn the etiquette of debate.

Now the idea of Anakin simply being the guy with the greatest potential eliminates the chance of NJO Luke (who is Anakin's son having less potential than Anakin) or Ragnos despite the fact that Anakin never developed into full potential ? Great logic, Janus.

Nice redirection, Nai. Took it completely out of context. The point is... what was -your- point for bringing it up in relation to your argument?

a)
From Sion's point of view all Jedi except the Exile are killed. That's why he was hunting the Exile.

It's not a straight absolute, but sure, whatever.

b)
The lightside ending of KotoR is canon so Revan and Bastilla are Jedi in the end. And you're simply ignoring facts. You can see Bastilla and Carth talking on Telos in KotoR 2 and it's a fact that Revan went alone to face the Sith Empire.

Ah, actually... I haven't seen a single official point that Revan and Bastila were canonically jedi. Except of course, from the dubious Wikipedia. And that doesn't hold water for shit, you know that. And the thing you're refering to is... duh, the light side ending. On the dark side on she never appears except in T3's recording and in the Sith holocron on Korriban. However, I should point out that the official KOTOR II website still calls Revan "Darth Revan" after the battle of the Star Forge.

There is no indication for Coruscant being attacked in that entire time. You have no Sith around until 2,000 BBY and those never attacked Coruscant (up to 1,000 BBY) and after them there was a time period up peace (to the PT era).

Only proven events that could have had an effect on the archieves would have been:

a) Ulic's attack on Coruscant - pre KotoR
b) Empire taking Coruscant over - past PT
c) Rebel Alliance / New Republic retaking Coruscant - past PT
d) Yuuzhan Vong attack on Coruscant - past PT

So it's quite easy to think about Coruscant never being attacked between KotoR II and PT times when we have never seen the planet being attacked from the beginning of the Republic to the point Ulic attacked it (21,000 years) and in the time period between KotoR II and the PT. It the most fortified planet in the entire Galaxy and since Ulic with the aid of the Mandalorians failed to sucessfully attack the planet what the hell makes you think there could have been an attack past KotoR II times ? Who should have done it ?

You tell me. The point here was, you're claiming there's no way it got attacked, period. You're dealing in absolutes to save your stance, and to be honest, Nai... KOTOR III could come out next week with the Battle of Coruscant where the real Sith dstroy the jedi temple and you'd be caught out in the open with a bad way. If you're going to hold this, then you should word it more carefully. IN particular, "well, there isn't an instance of it being attacked, so presumably it remained intact and unmolested". Instead, you're telling me there's NO WAY it was molested or attacked.

Even if the Onderon Royal family are descendants of Nadd's bloodline that exactly proofs what considering the fact that we don't know who he had children with ? You're mixing different bloodlines for 300 years and than come up with the conclusion that one of them got weaker - sure it got because mixing it with others. How much ? You have no idea. In fact Amanoa and Ommin still seem to be quite powerful considering the facts that Amanoa fooled Ulic and Ommin kept Arca Jeth as a prisoner with his force powers alone.

Well, Padme was non force sensitive but Anakin was very potentially powerful. They bred NJO Luke. This is one generation. Ulic and the others arrive on ONderon something like 500 years after Nadd. By this time, there are still very powerful Force users as you have noted. And Nadd's spirit... (His spirit) was able to kill King Ommin without any apparent effort. This is a considerable gap.

In fact you're now saying that the universe started with uber-powerful-force users everywhere and since their bloodlines got weaker the ancient Jedi must be more powerful than the PT Jedi ?
So please tell me how somebody like Ragnos can exist with that theory. The most powerful being in the Sith Empire just popped up out of nowhere after 20,000 years of "force potential degeneration" ? Hell...Ajunta Pall must be the uber asskicker if his bloodline and those of his fellow Dark Jedi spawned something like Ragnos after their bloodlines had 20,000 years to get weaker.

Interesting thought, but... The jedi were already stretched thin. They went through a series of purges. Their bloodlines ended with the death of certain Force sensitive families or dynasties. That's -obvious-. The Sith were a closed Force sensitive community who's only opponents were themselves. They weren't wiped out almost to a man several times. Considering that the rogue dark jedi who later came to be known as the Sith bred with the Sith race (Who was supposively very very powerful in the Force, if primitive) only strengthened their bloodlines as opposed to the jedi. Nadd had descendants, and I doubt he fell in love and married, as you so eloquently put it. Sith lords in the past probably spread their seed as often as they could. And Ragnos is a half-blood... his Force power was reputedly tremendous, and he commanded great respect. So the situations are different.

Deus Ex

The "hundreds" (quote from the JA trilogy) where most likely everything they could have send. Why would they not send anyone possible there ?

Depends, really. But unlike you, I'm not about to assume that's the only possible reason why they only sent "hundreds". Considering that the older jedi order was less centralized than the new one (Considering they had Watchman, jedi masters of council level who watcehd planets and even whole star systems) fielding more might have been impractical.

You don't get my idea.

a)
The fighters, ship crews, armed clones and anything else were ready. You can see that in AotC when Obi-Wan is on Kamino. He watches the clones entering one of those capital ships. What do you think they're doing there "And now: All people enter the Ship. Fine. And now all people get out of it again. And back into it. And out....I love clones..." ?

So this proves what for your argument? Are you just fighting me on every little thing now?

b)
Tatooine and Geonosis being on different sides of the Galaxy ? In fact they are very close to each other same counts for Kamino. If you don't thrust me (because I'm a notorious liar nowadays) have a look at this map:
http://www.starwars.idv.tw/starwarsgalaxy.jpg

Nice map. But Padme said it was halfway across the galaxy, and this is besides the point.

c)
Coming back to my basical idea. How would the PT Jedi be able to mobilize 200 people instantly (as they did) when the PT Jedi Order is smaller than the ancient Jedi Order (who did never mobilze more than hundrets of people even against major threats like Kun when they had the time to plan their attack). See...you are simply assuming the ancient Jedi Order was bigger without having any proof for it and while pretty much everything contradicts that oppinion.

Instantly, eh? Well, when the PT jedi order is more or less centralized. (And they were... Coruscant was the mainstay of their operations) and they supposively numbered anywhere between 2 and 10 thousand jedi (This figure, mind you, is tenative for the sake of argument) I'm surprised they could ONLY field two hundred. And considering the ones they fielded died, well... they must be better, right?

The clone army was ready and when you have a look at the distance between Kamino and Geonosis compared to the distance between Geonosis and Coruscant they could have easily commanded the Clone Army to Geonosis and launch an attack fast. Keep in mind that the Millenium Falcon needed only 7 hours to cross the distance between Tatooine and Alderaan this could have been done quite fast.

That doesn't always follow. If you look at the distance guide on the DVD special features for the OT... it can take seven hours to get to Alderaan from Tatooine, but twenty three days to get to Dagobah or some other place on the other side of the galaxy because of things like star clusters, novas, etc. It's not always a straight shot, as Han implied in ANH when he talked about properly charting their course.

What the hell ?
They have the machines needed for midichlorian count testing installed in a goddamn starship (TPM) - must be totally uncommon technology if they put it into a starship like a radio being put in cars in our times. Must be something nobody in space had ever came across except the people on Naboo who can build stuff like that into their goddamn starships where it would be most likely not ever be needed. Yes...that sounds completely logical to me. Lmao.

Nai... how does this prove the feasibility of testing EVERY DAMN PERSON IN A GALAXY OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE? Talk about "lmao"... that idea is ludicrous despite your best efforts.

And then we have Qui-Gon:
"Had he been born in the Republic, we would have identified him early, and he would have become Jedi, no doubt..."

Oh yes...that should have been: "Had he been born in the Republic we maybe would have identified him at some time in his life because we have to search all the millions of planets with our bare hands to find some force sensitive people with one Jedi being responsible for 1000 star systems (since their are so few of us). And if some force sensitive with Anakin's potential get's lucky we MAY find him to train him to become a Jedi but I'm not entirely sure."

Does that interpretation fit your idea how "finding force sensitive beings" works ?

You always do exaggerate my words to make them seem silly. My point is, there is NO evidence of their being galaxy wide midi-chlorian testing systems nor is there any evidence for people using them or even talking about them. So how the hell does this compute into "omfg pt jedi era has the cream o' the crop jedi from everywhere, all time lmao"? Seriously. Get a grip. You're claims are outlandish, not mine.

No...despite of the fact what kinds of force user we can see in the PT. For example their are 3 Zabrak force users shown in the PT era (Agen Kolar, Eeth Koth and Darth Maul), 4 if you count Kadrian Sey. Well...how many people live on Iridonia ?

Nice one. But Zabraks live OFF of Iridonia as well. Most planets are cosmopolitan enough to have multiple races. Coruscant and Nar Shaddaa are excellent examples. And because of the commonplace space travel, races can get anywhere they can find work or a ride.

We have two people from Yoda's homeworld on the TPM council. We have two people from Shili (Shaak Ti and one of the Younglings that can be seen in AotC). We have two people from Mirial (Luminara Unduli and Bariss Offee) and we have Stass Allie and Adi Gallia who are cousins.

So we have enough examples for multiple force users coming from a single planet in the same time period.

... Ooookay. So what? This proves what? That there are mass produced machines everywhere like little midi-chlorian ATMs and people walk up and test their kids blood on some sanitary needle and then the results go right to the jedi who send someone running to grab the kid? And this in turn proves that PT jedi are what? Cream of the crop? Nai, are you implying that the PT jedi are good based on this?

And I'm still waiting that you give me the name of one single ancient Jedi that is more powerful than Yoda or Mace...must be an easy thing to do if all ancient Jedi are uber-powerful force users compared to the PT ones.

Ah... Ulic. Technically, he died as a jedi master (becoming a force ghost and one with the force) and he could tool Mace or Yoda. so yeah. There ya go. Have fun with that.

darthsupremus

do you guys have no other way of proving your point without making a whole speech because the people on this sith with a life cannot actually be bothered.

Deus Ex

Originally posted by darthsupremus
do you guys have no other way of proving your point without making a whole speech because the people on this sith with a life cannot actually be bothered.

...

You have exactly fourteen posts and just registered this month. You have the audacity to come in here and make some worthless comment regarding this debate? Seriously... this IS a forum. People communicate here. If that is too big for you to comprehend, ignore the thread. No one asked nor needed your input.

darthsupremus

how do you know this was my only account. It is by the way but that is not the point

Deus Ex

Because if it wasn't, you'd be a sock and banned. Forum rules. And your comment is still pointless.

And a correction on my earlier post. There are specifics on Nomi taking Ulic's powers from him. I don't know why I said there weren't... I just reread the comic.

darthsupremus

man you must be cool

Deus Ex

And more... Apparently they did rally ALL the jedi after Kun. I stand corrected. There.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Well, for one thing, NJO is a certified forcegod. That's apparent. We can see it. But you, you're claiming the PT jedi are something more than what we see. Specifically, that they have amazing saber skills better than anyone else; more knowledge of the Force (despite earlier Force users like Kreia using far more in their bag of tricks); the ability to work perfectly (better even than older eras of jedi) to fight wars and enemies and such despite never having a use for it. I mean, come on, Nai... you're talking about an era where there is one guy who practices the true saber-to-saber style. Just one. This is not an era of war-oriented, battleready and Sith slaying jedi. Period. The difference between NJO Luke (Which is stupid, but I've ranted about this before) and your idea of the PT jedi being great is.... there's actual instances of NJO Luke doing such things. All instances of the PT jedi's powers and abilities are before us, too. Guess what? Nothing impressive.

a)
Fact remains that Luke developed all of his force powers with knowledge that the PT Jedi had access to. So unless it's against the code why would the PT Jedi not learn some stuff ?

b)
To quote yourself: Absense of proof isn't proof of absense. If you consider the CW cartoons we have seen the PT Jedi doing some powerful stuff (Mace wasting those droids on Dantooine) now matter how stupid it is. More stupid than the NJO series ? Hardly.

Where did they show feats that couldn't be replicated by anyone in the PT ? This again is assumption since noone in the PT had a starship amplifying his force powers to destroy a star. We have seen people using force grip, force lightning and telekenesis (so everything shown by Kun, Nadd, Sadow) in the PT and again it would be an assumption to say that the ancient ones did use it in a "stronger" way.

Due to the simple fact of inconsistencies between PT and EU released before the PT. Actually we have never seen somebody being considered Jedi Knight at the age of 13 or Master at the age of 28.

Simply wrong. Yarael Poof and Oppo Rancisis where both able to use Battle Meditation. Sidious did it, Joruus C'baoth also did it. All of them being PT force users.

Yes. After Sadow was blown out of orbit by his own commander. Nice action.

Yap. They did. That tells us what since the only Jedi that turned into Sith in PT times where a crippled Anakin becoming Darth Vader and an old man - Dooku - becoming Darth Tyranus ?

What time period are you talking about ? In really ancient times there were no Sith to fight for the Jedi. Sadow was the first one and got killed because of betrayal.

Kun's period...major people to fight:
Exar, Ulic, Aleema and Satal Keto, King Ommin, Queen Amanoa, Warb Null, Crado

KotoR times:
Revan used special forces to capture the Jedi and convert them where Malak used Sith Assasins to simply kill them. That was continued after the war. In fact the only people we know that did fight Dark Jedi / Sith and survived are the people on board the Ebon Hawk (KotoR 1 + 2) and Kavar (since he went to fight Malak). Major people to fight: Revan, Malak, Sion, Kreia (?)

PT times:
Maul, Dooku, Sidious, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, Kadrian Sey, Kar Vastor, Xanatos, Komari Vosa, Bruck Chun, Artel Darc, The Dark Acolytes (Asajj Ventress, Trenox, Saato, Sev'rance Tann). Did I miss somebody ?

a) Makashi didn't help Dooku to overcome Yoda as we've all seen.
b) They were more knowledgeable in general with lightsaber styles ? Hardly.
- they had one style less (since Vaapad was invented in PT times)
- Kreia (from game experience) was able to use 3 styles (form I, II, III at max)
- as far as we seen every one of that Jedi Masters did practice one style where some PT users have mastered more than one.

People at PT times had general instructors from very young age up to the point they became Padawans (e.g. Yoda, Cin Drallig) then continued as Padawans under one Master so they did have more "masters" in fact than people like Nomi Sunrider or Ulic Quel-Droma.

Again the bloodline theory. It's great how a single person can assume bloodlikes of thousands of Jedi "ended" somehow where proof shows that some bloodlines survived all that and (just to remind you) not all force users were involved in the Battle of Ruusan.

Yap. Jedi masters on the Council replacing other people where creamed by clone troopers who are still better than battle droids and all this happen while completely thrusting those clone troopers and being hopelessly outnumbered.

Revan was shot down and on the edge of death before they were able to capture him while Ulic was simply captured. When Nomi did cut Ulic's connection to the force up Ulic was just hesitating because he killed his own brother just moments before. Well...he doesn't seem to be that evil at all...

birthoftheforce

nai you just proved my point, god when you reply just take it slow and easy

DarthMaul9123

yo supremus let me give you some advice on your first month day week whatever at this website the best thing to do is not make everybody hate you especially janus

Darth Faunus

6 B.B.Y.? Luke was fourteen. . . I believe you mean 6 A.B.Y.

Darth_Glentract

Sorry. I'm so used to talking about Ancient Sith recently. 6 A.B.Y.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So we only see a few people from Coruscant? That doesn't make a lot of sense, since that is where all the knowledge is, isn't it.

Oh...are all people sitting in a library where you live since that is the place where all the knowledge is ? At least think before posting, Glentract.

And again Glentract...don't even try to argue me when you basically no nothing.

a)
Things that Luke found on Dathomir were the same things that were on board of the Cu'unthor which contained copies from the things stored in the archieves on Coruscant. That was the "Jedi library" he found.

b)
Ossus was completely destroyed and he basically found nothing there. Only thing I have seen coming from Ossus was a approxematly 10,000 year old lightsaber given to Leia by Vima Da-Boda.

c)
The holocrons Palpatine had were either taken away from the Jedi Temple after he had taken over the Republic or they were passed on through the Sith order from times of Ruusan reformation on (again the holocrons were stolen from the Jedi archieves in 2,000 BBY) and as far as we know Sidious only had one Holocron (being the one of Master Vodo).

Nice you give me information I have already postet myself. Still no explanation how they would be able to capture him on Coruscant.

Darth_Glentract

Oh...are all people sitting in a library where you live since that is the place where all the knowledge is ? At least think before posting, Glentract.

I'll admit, I missread your post. I thought you were saying many Jedi weren't trained on Coruscant.

And again Glentract...don't even try to argue me when you basically no nothing.

I was showing why Luke is powerful, not showing that the Jedi Council had less power than him do to knowledge alone.

a)
Things that Luke found on Dathomir were the same things that were on board of the Cu'unthor which contained copies from the things stored in the archieves on Coruscant. That was the "Jedi library" he found.

Where has it ever been shown that these things were copies? I want to see a quote. And I want that quote to have a source.

b)
Ossus was completely destroyed and he basically found nothing there. Only thing I have seen coming from Ossus was a approxematly 10,000 year old lightsaber given to Leia by Vima Da-Boda.

So, unlike on Dantooine, the Jedi didn't save ANY of the knowledge from Ossus? I never said he got all of it.

c)
The holocrons Palpatine had were either taken away from the Jedi Temple after he had taken over the Republic or they were passed on through the Sith order from times of Ruusan reformation on (again the holocrons were stolen from the Jedi archieves in 2,000 BBY) and as far as we know Sidious only had one Holocron (being the one of Master Vodo).

So there is no way that Palpatine got any of those holocrons from other sources? Add to that, where did Vodo's holocron come from? How do you know the PT Jedi had it. Leia recovered Bodo's holocron from Palpatine's body, not Vodo's. I want to see where this one came from, or at least a logical argument for the PT Jedi having had access to it.

Nice you give me information I have already postet myself. Still no explanation how they would be able to capture him on Coruscant.

Yes, why would they be able to capture Ulic? Maybe because there were thousands of Jedi there. It's not like one guy walked up to him and in one on one combat disarmed him and dragged him back to the Jedi Temple.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Where has it ever been shown that these things were copies? I want to see a quote. And I want that quote to have a source.

The Chu'unthor was built 400 years before TPM, designed as a mobile Jedi school and it's archives are copies of the Jedi Archives on Coruscant (where else do you think this stuff was coming from ?). That can all be read in "The Courtship of Princess Leia" which I don't have around here at the moment (being quite the stupid book it is) and if I would only have the German version so I am unable to provide a quote and a source.

Ossus surface was hit by a supernova. What exactly do you think can be found there ? The Jedi tried to save some of the documents that were stored there (and guess where they brought the things they wer able to save). Luke Skywalker visted the planet and found the "Ysanna" there.

a)
Well...there is a possiblity that Sidious had holocrons coming from other sources but as far as we know he had only one - that being the one Leia found at his body.

b)
That Holocron belonged to Bodo Baas but the information stored in it were much older and it contained information from Vodo Siosk-Baas himself (that can be seen in the JA trilogy when Luke uses the holocron). Now Bodo lived for more than 600 years and was killed during the Jedi Purge in the end of the Clone Wars. He simply organized the informations stored in the holocron.

Now seeing that Bodo was part of the PT Jedi Order how would the knowledge of that holocron would have not be accessable by the PT Jedi Order members and where should Palpatine have found that holocron if not in the Jedi Temple (keeping the fact in mind that it belonged to a PT time Jedi) ?

No the simple reason is that Cay Quel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider did capture him. Him...the Sith who should be far better than the two Jedi.

Darth_Glentract

The Chu'unthor was built 400 years before TPM, designed as a mobile Jedi school and it's archives are copies of the Jedi Archives on Coruscant (where else do you think this stuff was coming from ?). That can all be read in "The Courtship of Princess Leia" which I don't have around here at the moment (being quite the stupid book it is) and if I would only have the German version so I am unable to provide a quote and a source.

Alright, good enough for me. At least in part. Does it actually say that the info in copies. No quote needed. I forget that English isn't a lot of people here's promary language.

Ossus surface was hit by a supernova. What exactly do you think can be found there ? The Jedi tried to save some of the documents that were stored there (and guess where they brought the things they wer able to save). Luke Skywalker visted the planet and found the "Ysanna" there.

There was time to evacuate. They moved some(a small portion out of the whole, but still a large amount) to other places. This didn't necessarily go to Coruscant.

a)
Well...there is a possiblity that Sidious had holocrons coming from other sources but as far as we know he had only one - that being the one Leia found at his body.

Thus proving that Luke got a holocron from a different source. There were two different holocrons. One was Bodo's holocron. That was the one Palpatine had. Luke recieved a different one from somewhere else that was made by Vodo. There is no way it is the same holocron.

One, The Essential Guide to Characters says they were different ones. Two, Exar as a spirit destroyed Vodo's holocron before the Emperor came back as a clone. Since Leia got Bodo's holocron off of Palpatines body, they must be different.

b)
That Holocron belonged to Bodo Baas but the information stored in it were much older and it contained information from Vodo Siosk-Baas himself (that can be seen in the JA trilogy when Luke uses the holocron). Now Bodo lived for more than 600 years and was killed during the Jedi Purge in the end of the Clone Wars. He simply organized the informations stored in the holocron.

See above. They are two different holocrons.

Now seeing that Bodo was part of the PT Jedi Order how would the knowledge of that holocron would have not be accessable by the PT Jedi Order members and where should Palpatine have found that holocron if not in the Jedi Temple (keeping the fact in mind that it belonged to a PT time Jedi) ?

You do realize that Bodo is not a PT Jedi. Yoda probably talked to him, but Bodo died hundreds of years before the PT. Also, please restate this now that you know Vodo and Bodo were different and each had their own holocrons.

No the simple reason is that Cay Quel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider did capture him. Him...the Sith who should be far better than the two Jedi.

Two Jedi capturing him, if true, doesn't mean a PT Jedi could have done the same thing. Both have extremly powerful bloodlines. And, does in make any sense for just two Jedi out of the thousands of Jedi on Coruscant to go after him?

This could mean any of these things to me.

Either Cay and Nomi are extremly powerful and the Order knew they were enough to do it one their own or....

There were other Jedi, but we only saw those two, as they were important characters in the comic.

Still, I want to see why only two Jedi went after Ulic out of thousands.

Remember that Ulic had Nadd's Amulet, so he had artifacts of extreme power and that he stalemated with the guy who destroyed Nadd's spirit and many Massassi THEN trained for years before reaching his peak.

Deus Ex

a)
Fact remains that Luke developed all of his force powers with knowledge that the PT Jedi had access to. So unless it's against the code why would the PT Jedi not learn some stuff ?

Why would they not use it when it mattered most? Hoenstly, Nai... they showed nothing to indicate that they were better than they are.

b)
To quote yourself: Absense of proof isn't proof of absense. If you consider the CW cartoons we have seen the PT Jedi doing some powerful stuff (Mace wasting those droids on Dantooine) now matter how stupid it is. More stupid than the NJO series ? Hardly.

And it's not proof of proof either, Nai. The default stance for any debater listening to another propose in idea (in this case, you saying the PT jedi are better than every one else) is disbelief. False. And it is up to you to prove otherwise. Everyone and his mother thinks the CW cartoon stuff is ridiculous except you now, because it supports your point. So really, does this absence of proof make the PT jedi better? I mean, in that case I could argue that the absence of proof on the earlier force users must mean they are also very good. See where that leads us? Nowhere.

Where did they show feats that couldn't be replicated by anyone in the PT ? This again is assumption since noone in the PT had a starship amplifying his force powers to destroy a star. We have seen people using force grip, force lightning and telekenesis (so everything shown by Kun, Nadd, Sadow) in the PT and again it would be an assumption to say that the ancient ones did use it in a "stronger" way.

I like how that ship suddenly undermines the ancient Force users. They must all be weaker than the PT ones simply because of a ship. How quaint. I like how you're ignoring the obvious- the ancients actually HAD the knowledge to build a ship like that. Obviously they understood the Force VERY well, and this should not take away from their prowess; if anything, it should verify it. And Nomi Sunrider used a technique she learned from Odun-Orr in which she effectively and suddenly shut Ulic off from the Force. No prep, no ship, no nothing. Why didn't Yoda do that to Dooku or Sidious in the PT? COuld it be he.... couldn't, Nai?

Due to the simple fact of inconsistencies between PT and EU released before the PT. Actually we have never seen somebody being considered Jedi Knight at the age of 13 or Master at the age of 28.

Because the practice wasn't to train younglings. You said it yourself. But it's not a complete inconsistency since they went ahead and said that the notion of training jedi from youth didn't come until abour Ruusan time period. So how does this change anything? With less training they became just as good if not even better.

Simply wrong. Yarael Poof and Oppo Rancisis where both able to use Battle Meditation. Sidious did it, Joruus C'baoth also did it. All of them being PT force users.

Alright, I concede on the Battle meditation. I didn't remember either of those two using it. But the ancients still used Force techniques and powers above and beyond those of the PT era. In particular, Nomi's ability to tear Ulic from the force is a considerable and effective talent. Also, when Vodo and the jedi captured Ulic after Aleema betrayed him, they put him into a shield of light that he (despite being a powerful jedi and Sith lord) couldn't break free from. Both of those are fine instances of when the ancient jedi used exceptional force powers. And I'm not even mentioning the ancient Sith, who were above even that.

Yap. They did. That tells us what since the only Jedi that turned into Sith in PT times where a crippled Anakin becoming Darth Vader and an old man - Dooku - becoming Darth Tyranus ?

Oh I get it. So because of their status (old and crippled..) they aren't viable examples of PT jedi turned Sith being much much weaker than their ancient counterparts? Please...

What time period are you talking about ? In really ancient times there were no Sith to fight for the Jedi. Sadow was the first one and got killed because of betrayal.

Kun's period...major people to fight:
Exar, Ulic, Aleema and Satal Keto, King Ommin, Queen Amanoa, Warb Null, Crado

KotoR times:
Revan used special forces to capture the Jedi and convert them where Malak used Sith Assasins to simply kill them. That was continued after the war. In fact the only people we know that did fight Dark Jedi / Sith and survived are the people on board the Ebon Hawk (KotoR 1 + 2) and Kavar (since he went to fight Malak). Major people to fight: Revan, Malak, Sion, Kreia (?)

PT times:
Maul, Dooku, Sidious, Sora Bulq, Depa Billaba, Kadrian Sey, Kar Vastor, Xanatos, Komari Vosa, Bruck Chun, Artel Darc, The Dark Acolytes (Asajj Ventress, Trenox, Saato, Sev'rance Tann). Did I miss somebody ?

Touche on the listing. You can put forth data, if you can't always back up your argument. But really... did the PT jedi show sufficient saber-to-saber fighting techniques? No. Assajj Ventress killed jedi masters, and defeated the likes of Obi-Wan and Kit Fisto. Sidious murdered the order as a whole, and personally killed four. Dooku was beyond the ability of the majority of the jedi to fight, and Maul effectively killed a jedi master who was renowned for his wisdom and cleverness. This is an era where Niman (The diplomat's form) was commonplace, obviously. Since you like to use sampling yourself, try this: at Geonosis there were slightly over a hundred jedi there. An overwhelming majority practiced Niman. -If- this is reflective of the entire order (and we're never specifically shown otherwise) since they ARE keepers of the peace and not soldiers with no known natural enemies until the Sith reemerge, it's very likely that the majority of the order practices Niman.

a) Makashi didn't help Dooku to overcome Yoda as we've all seen.

And Ataru didn't help Yoda overcome Makashi or Sidious, either. The point is, Makashi is the refinement of saber to saber combat, hailing from an ancient era. Dooku's saber hilt is even supposed to be ancient in design. Just because Dooku can't defeat Yoda using Makashi doesn't mean there weren't practitioners in the past who couldn't. Absence of proof, Nai. It cuts both ways here and there.

b) They were more knowledgeable in general with lightsaber styles ? Hardly.
- they had one style less (since Vaapad was invented in PT times)
- Kreia (from game experience) was able to use 3 styles (form I, II, III at max)
- as far as we seen every one of that Jedi Masters did practice one style where some PT users have mastered more than one.

Vaapad is a COMPLETION of Juyo; it is not a whole 'nother style. And in any case, you argued that they all use the basics, so what difference should that make in your opinion anyway? Second, gameplay experience is stupid to use in debate. Kreia knows (as in, her dialogue) all of the styles in the order. The three jedi masters know each of the higher forms (Juyo, Ataru, etc.) Just because a Jedi consular in game stats cannot use certain styles does not preclude the person actually not using them. what if the exile never leveled up past a certain point? Could he NOT use Shii-Cho? And secondly, only Mace Windu has shown multiple style mastery, and this is implied in his form.

People at PT times had general instructors from very young age up to the point they became Padawans (e.g. Yoda, Cin Drallig) then continued as Padawans under one Master so they did have more "masters" in fact than people like Nomi Sunrider or Ulic Quel-Droma.

But not on the same level. We know from KOTOR times that Jedi often floated from one mastr to another, even up and past adulthood, learning what they could. It was an open school. in the PT era, children learn under multiple masters until they are apprenticed to one person. Then they Study under that master primarily from that point on. It's the way it is. As for learning as younglings, etc. ... do you honestly remember everything you learned in grade school as a child? Do you think that despite research indicating that youth generally don't develop most logical functions and retention features until past their early preteens, these children learned enough from multiple masters to what? Be good? Please...

Again the bloodline theory. It's great how a single person can assume bloodlikes of thousands of Jedi "ended" somehow where proof shows that some bloodlines survived all that and (just to remind you) not all force users were involved in the Battle of Ruusan.

Voma survived. Who else? And really, are you going to argue that all those jedi didn't die without kin? That they all secretly had hidden away children and family members who survived the purges?

Yap. Jedi masters on the Council replacing other people where creamed by clone troopers who are still better than battle droids and all this happen while completely thrusting those clone troopers and being hopelessly outnumbered.

Yeah, Ki was hopelessly outnumbered by... about the same number of clone troopers that padawan started owning. And even if they are replacement council members, they should still be good, since that is your premise, is it not?

Revan was shot down and on the edge of death before they were able to capture him while Ulic was simply captured. When Nomi did cut Ulic's connection to the force up Ulic was just hesitating because he killed his own brother just moments before. Well...he doesn't seem to be that evil at all...

Ulic was not simply captured, Nai. He was confronted with the grandmaster of the order and a handful of other jedi who ahd to combined (pool, it says) their powers to overcome him and trap him.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
There was time to evacuate. They moved some(a small portion out of the whole, but still a large amount) to other places. This didn't necessarily go to Coruscant.

If they moved something away from Ossus this would have been transportet to Coruscant. The archive on Ossus was started 5,000 BBY and remained there for 1,000 years. The archives on Coruscant were still the main archives of the order thus existing probably since 25,000 years BBY.

That is simply wrong. Read the JA trilogy if you don't believe me. Bodo was the keeper of Vodo's holocron. He reorganized the information in it (stored in it by Vodo) and made his own personality part of the Holocron basically as an "archivar".
You can see Luke asking Bodo for information about Kun (or the Great Sith War) and than Vodo is talking about his old student (which would be Kun).

Either you missunderstood the Essential Guide or it's simply wrong there. And have a look at the EU timeline. Palpatine returned 10 ABY and Luke did start his Jedi Academy in 11 ABY so after the Emperor was defeated in the Dark Empire comics.

No. They aren't. Period. Read the beginning of chapter 23 of "Dark Apprentice". The holocron tells the students how Yoda became a Jedi Knight (which Vodo Siosk-Baas can't tell of course) and the very same holocron gave information about Nomi Sunrider before. Now if you read the end of chapter 29 of "Dark Apprentice" (were the Holocron gets destroyed by Kun) you have Vodo Siosk-Baas talking to Luke about Exar Kun right before that.
All the very same holocron that's the reason why it's called "the Jedi Holocron" and not "a Jedi Holocron".

You do realize that Bodo was born around 600 years before BBY and died being executed during the Jedi Purge being acused of "crimes against the Empire". So he in fact was a PT Jedi. And you better realize that Vodo Siosk-Baas holocron was the same holocron that Bodo Baas had, that was taken by the Emperor after he was executed and it's the same holocron Leia found in Dark Empire after the Emperor was killed and the very same holocron that Luke used during the Jedi Academy trilogy being destroyed by Exar Kun.

Where have I landed here ? In the institute for Jedi bloodlines ?

Nomi had a powerful bloodline ? Great. In fact we don't know anything about Nomi's ancestors since she just married Andur Sunrider, taking his name and he was the one who's father was a Jedi.

But yes Cay must be the uber powerful force users because being a Quel-Droma. As far as we know, there were only 4 Jedi in the Quel-Droma family: Ulic, Cay, their mother and their cousin with the ladder one and his fellow Jedi were slain by two Tarantateks that Revan later killed on his own.

Shut that goddamn bloodline theory down or else I will throw in an argumentation like that: Each generation of force users got weaker. From 25,000 years BBY to 4,000 years BBY (time of the acients) that would have been 840 generations of human beings but less than 100 generations for Yoda's species (1,000 generations of humans and still less than 100 for Yoda's species to PT times) so Yoda's bloodline would have suffered 10 times less "weakening" than the ones of the ancient Jedi (like Ulic) and therefore he must be much stronger. Period. (What a stupid idea...)

It was not me who said that the ancient Sith are "better by far" compared to the ancient Jedi.

Why they did it ? I don't know. But when Ulic is finally defeated it's again only vs Cay and Nomi (he killing Cay and then get his force connection cut by Nomi).

Erm...actually all events of the Great Sith War (from Ulic's and Kun's first battle to Kun's defeat on Yavin 4) happened in 3,996 BBY so I wonder where one of them should have had "years" of training from their duel on.

Nai Fohl

Doublepost...argh...

Deus Ex

And btw Nai... it says in the narration in the comic, Sith wars # 6 that "thousands upon thousands" of force users were in the skies over Yavin VI.

So yeah. I'm off to work. You can go ahead and refute all you'd like.

Deus Ex

And correction on the first above post... I meant "Slightly over two hundred" at the battle of Geonosis.

Deus Ex

I didn't even catch that. It is more of a race, and I think a mixed one too, since unless there were enough jedi on the ship to perpetuate a race of people for a long time, it is likely (and I think is implied in the book, but I haven't read it since February so don't quote me on that one) that such was the case.

If anything, that would reinforce the idea that closed, interbreeding can produce strong Force sensitive peoples. The PT Jedi aren't like this at all. If anything, they discourage breeding and attachment. I remember that Ki-Adi-Mundi was an exception to having a significant other(s) because of the low birthrate of his species. Also, Master Halcyon and Anakin has secret lovers, so it's not beyond thought that PT jedi did breed; just not enough to suggest they interbred to achieve a strong connetion to the Force.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Why would they not use it when it mattered most? Hoenstly, Nai... they showed nothing to indicate that they were better than they are.

Erm ? Yes...of course...if you only use sources you like. Watch the clone war cartoons and use the things seen there. I know all the people seem to be overpowered there compared to the movies but hell...people in the other EU sources also seem to be "overpowered" compared to the one in the movies.

No. I'm not talking about the CW cartoon because it supports my point but because it's simply part of the EU universe. People dislike the NJO (in fact most people here agree it's ridiculous - I would agree on the CW cartoons being redicoulus) but despite of that fact the NJO books still are valid EU material that can be used in arguments. Same counts for the DE comics or (if you like it) even the KotoR games. The simple fact that you, me or anyone else doesn't like something doesn't makes the thing disliked invalid as a source.

First:
The ship ? What about chrystals, armulets, artifacts and stuff like that boosting force powers up. What do you think all that stuff was invented for (from a authors point of view) ? It's limiting their natural abilities they won't have without the stuff they used.
In fact...when a PT force user uses the same stuff he suddenly developes into a force god (see DE Sidious).

Second:
Sure they understood the force very well. How would they understand the force better than people 4,000 years later who had those 4,000 years to solve more riddles when it comes to the force ? See...the people in ancient Egypt had tons of knowledge about certain things but still our knowledge today is simply better. You sometimes should get rid of the idea that "being ancient" doesn't necessarily mean "being better" because you seem to use that idea very often even in situation where it doesn't fit.

Third:
Why Yoda wouldn't cut peoples connection to the force ? Hell...because of the new Jedi code obviously. In KotoR II the Jedi Masters hesitated and did a lot of thinking before deciding to cut the Exile's connection to the force and they thought that the Exile would have been able to simply destroy the force itself if they didn't do that. Still they hesitated doing it. Now why would any PT Jedi do something like that keeping the fact in mind nearly all "aggressive" force powers (or even aggressive use of the force) were forbidden (but were still known to them) at least used against other intelligent beings ?

Cutting someones connection to the force off is something that can't be undone later and since Kreia (or the Exile) descriped that process feeling similar to "dying" I doubt any PT Jedi would use it against whoever.

The inconsisties aren't in the training methods but in the training time and what is archieved with that training time.

I already gave reasons why no PT Jedi would cut somebody's connection to the force. That shield of light required serveral Jedi (as you said) and we never had serveral Jedi with one of them having Vodo's force knowledge together to do something like that. I mean...Vodo + Cay + Nomi are a powerful combination.

No. This is only one side (yeah...in fact...somebody that did lose a great part of his original potential would be a great Sith Lord - Vader) and I said on multiple occassions that the Sith lost knowledge from ancient times on since they didn't have any real archieves (the pre Ruusan order used a Sith holocron stolen from the Jedi temple) and the Sith order was extinct on multiple occasions (after the Great Hyperspace War, after the Great Sith War, after the Jedi Civil War, after Ruusan).

So you idea that the PT Jedi must be weaker than the ancient Jedi because they spawned the better Sith Lords simply doesn't work.

No ?

What the hell do you think the ancient Jedi were ? They were keepers of peace. It's not that they were constantly challenged with Sith. In fact in the entirety of 5,000 years the only "ancient" Jedi that were constantly challenged Sith were the Jedi that lived in the era from 2,000 to 1,000 BBY.

All other conflicts between Jedi and Sith didn't last very long:
Great Hyperspace War = less than a year (5,000 BBY)
Battle against Nadd = a single fight 4,400 BBY
Great Sith War = less than a year (3,996 BBY) even if you consider all events before the Jedi had hardly seen more than 3 major battles (2 battles against Ommin and Amanoa during the Nadd uprising)
Jedi Civil War = 5 years (3,956-3,951 BBY) but as I said that was more Jedi assasination than anything else.

So do you want to tell me that the 2,000 to 1,000 BBY Jedi are the best (so...somebody like Lord Hoth = best Jedi ever) ?

Name one single being that trained that form longer than Dooku did. See...you develop skill through practice and it doesn't matter if you fight other people in sparing matches or in actual wars. Training is all that matters. Now...as I said. Name a single being that trained a form for more than 6 decades or - throwing Yoda into the field - trained with a lightsaber for 9 centuries.

4,000 years more time to refine the basic movements ?

Nai Fohl

a)
Multiple style mastery is implied in mastering Vaapad (form IV, V and VII) so you would have at least two people since Depa Billaba mastered Vaapad too.

b)
Considering the fact that all Jedi are trained in form I from infancy on until they reach Padawan status (that might most likely be enough time to master that basic style) you can consider everyone mastering a style not being form I a multiple form master.

c)
Most likely the people responsible for lightsaber instruction mastered more than one style (or two if you count form I in) that would be Yoda, Cin Drallig and Sora Bulq.

d)
Name one single being in the ancient times mastering a single or even multiple styles. In fact they most likely wouldn't been able to master one (name one single being that MASTERED a combat style in 4 years) and the idea of using multiple styles was first brought up with the PT.

Now the only persons you can consider to have "mastered" a single form would be the Jedi Masters shown in the PT or people that designed their own style (Kun, Hord).

Again, you're wrong here. First "Shadowhunter" Darsha mentioned that she had participated in multiple lectures held by Yoda even when she was already a Padawan so they keep on learning under multiple masters. Second: Mace Windu is able to remember Yoda giving him "lessons" when he was a baby (Shatterpoint) - obviously the memory of force users works better than that of normal humans.

The only purge that matters here is the purge following the Jedi Civil War under Sion / Nihilus. Now...you are a Jedi and you know that a huge amount of force users got killed by Sith assasins: What would you do ? Try to hide yourself and your children somewhere.
There are millions (!) of civilisated worlds in the Galaxy - how many Jedi do you think the Sith could have exterminated in 5 years ?

And for the bloodlines that obviously survived:
The Sunrider family (still around in Dark Empire times - Vima Da-Boda)
The Baas family (still around 600 years BBY - Bodo Baas)
The Keto family (still around in PT times - Serra Keto)

The Battle of Ruusan doesn't apply here since the Army of Light (being only a part of the Jedi Order) went to Ruusan to face the Sith.

Deus Ex

This is tiring, Nai. I'm getting tired of going back and forth with you; it gets nothing accomplished. Two things: Vader is possibly genetically altered to have a high midi-chlorian count, higher even than Yoda. This means he is the exception to the rule, not the norm. Second, you cannot master Form I in infantcy. This is noted that in The Cestus Deception, despite his constant training and dedication to Form I, Kit Fisto is not a master yet.

And the rest I am not arguing anymore. This is ridiculous. IF you want to convince us of your opinion, Nai, you need to form a cohesive and solid argument. I'm not gonna reply to your nitpicking posts anymore, because they are getting WAY off track. And after you do this (or refuse to do this, even.. whatever) if I'm convinced, I'll admit it. If not, agree to disagree. This is tiring for me, and I'm thinkiing for everyone else.

Darth Faunus

Well, this debate has become an argument. Little civility going on here. But I must agree. No one's budging, and all we're doing is straining relations. I say you guys drop it.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Because you're being overly sensitive. I'm not "arguing your person", I'm arguing the validity of something you popped up with and claim it says "anakin is THE best force user potentially of all time, period, no exceptions" That and you're notorious for arguing in absolutes when there are none. So yeah, I'm arguing your position.

What should I else use than absolutes when Lucas always comes up with absolutes ?
- Anakin was conceived by midi-chlorians. An absolute. How should somebody develop more potential than a being that "the force" itself created ?
- Lucas himself said that Anakin was the force user with the most potential ever. You can argue that back an forth. Fact is that NJO Luke Skywalker having less potential than Anakin developed force powers that can compete with the ones of the Ancient Sith Lords (yet he's no darksider). So if Anakin had more potential than Luke (that being an absolute) how would he NOT have been the best force user EVER if Luke rivals the best we have having less potential than Anakin.

Again. I never stated that the entirety of the PT Jedi's is superior to the entirety of the ancient Jedi. My idea was that the "major" force users of the PT Jedi (Mace, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda) could hold their own against ancient time force users. Exactly THIS is what I was talking about.
And sorry...you claimed that the ancient Jedi must be absolutely more powerful than the PT ones without having proof yourself. Some ancient Jedi showed some nice amounts of power - same was shown by some PT Jedi. Now that tells us what ? Nothing...

As I said: And Caesar had conquered the American continent in ancient times. Because it could have happend.

It's as simply as that: Either you want to stay inside the Star Wars history told or you want to completely ignore it like you do it now. We know that the greatest military strategist we know about all failed to take Coruscant over or didn't even try because they knew they would fail (Ulic, Exar, Thrawn, Revan, Grievous) but now there must be some possibilty for some person never mentioned to do something that requires having military forces that the galaxy had never seen before.

In fact Janus...yes there is a "possibility" that Coruscant was attacked. Exactly the same possibility there is that you receive a direct hit from a meteor into your left eye while putting your head in the sand. That would be a chance of 100 billion to one (?). So it's save to simply say it never happened at least saver to assume that it did happen with the single reason to cut the PT Jedi's amount of knowledge down. It's simply speaking against all established facts we know so far so why the hell assume it.

On that level you can close this forum because in every versus thread I can always say "There is a chance that X might defeat Y" totally against the establish facts and you keep turning in circles without end. There is a chance that Han Solo will kill Ragnos in frontal combat with a single blaster shot. There is a chance that Jabba might kill Exar Kun in a lightsaber duel. In fact those "chances" are so little that they are nonexistant so why mentioning them ? And that's exactly what you do here...

Again throwing in assumptions were the "most likely" case is simply ignored because you want to make your own oppinion the right one. We know that the PT Sith order had access to Sith holocrons (stolen from the Jedi archieves) and they had personal information from Freedon Nadd. Now you want to tell me that not learned techniques from that ancient sources but instead developed the exact same stuff new again ?

Again I was only stating that they had ancient knowledge accessable and not that this will make them better than the ancient Jedi. You assumed that they must be weaker because "losing knowledge" and I simply proved (note that) that they had knowledge from "ancient" times.

Maybe I've simply used the wrong words here. If you have a theory you can consider it to be "true" unless something contradicts it. Now...you would not even think about Caesar conquering America, would you ? The same way I would not think about Coruscant being attacked between KotoR II and PT times.
Because while there is tons of evidence that it has never happened there is no evidence that it could have happened. So why even assume that it could have happened. It's simply senseless for me.

Where the hell I said millions. Again you said that most likely all powerful bloodlines were exterminated because of some purges. Hell...we have more than a dozen of force users surviving Order 66 and that Purge when you had a "centralized" Jedi Order and Sidious / Vader had nearly 2 decades and an entire army to exterminate them all but Sion and Nihilus with some Assasins should have done a better job ? Most likely not...

a)
The bloodlines we see that have survived don't seem any weaker than the people in ancient times. Thereby your "bloodlines getting weaker over time" theory is not viable.

b)
As I said the entire bloodline theory is completely stupid since most force users "popped up out of nowhere" instead of "coming from bloodlines strong with the force". See Kun, Nadd, Nomi Sunrider most of all Jedi in any times.

c)
For the developing of the Jedi Order. You said yourself (and this is true afaik that the ancient times order was less centralized than the PT one - at least until KotoR times). Now we have a totaly centralized Order of Jedi Knights (at least from 1,000 BBY on). The idea of Jedi having children together would be actually more likely when most of all Jedi lived centralized on a single place and (before somebody starts arguing that the Jedi have to be celibate):

"Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships" (George Lucas in an interview).

So actually the enviroment for producing "more force sensitives" were better in PT times than they were in ancient times even when you consider that they had sex with non-Jedi their would have been a huge number of force sensitive persons (not force senstive enough to become Jedi Knights) near the Order (most likely on Coruscant).