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I remeber Readin Somehwere That your "Fate" Of wheither you go to Hell or Heaven is chosen when you are born, so basically, whatever you do during your life is not important because your fate is already written....

Oh...that's just predestination teaching, if you're taking it from Biblical sources...

Don't believe it.

Hum, Sowhere nto supposed to beleive parts of the bible? please enlighten me, Which other parts arn't we suppose to beleive.

All of it.........

The bible doesn't teach predestination. That's Calvinism.

As I said once before...God KNOWS what's going to happen in the end but he is not controlling our lives.

You're right!...It is Calvinsim...and it contracts other scriptures...like the one that says "Christ died for all, especially the sinners."..Said by Paul.

Originally posted by debbiejo
You're right!...It is Calvinsim...and it contracts other scriptures...like the one that says "Christ died for all, especially the sinners."..Said by Paul.

Yes, and it is very annoying. It twists the truth of scriptures.

Sure does...But you can't tell a Calvinist that...They'll come up with some main scripture, but at the present moment..I can't remember what it is...But still the predestination is sad...very sad...cause no matter what you do, if you weren't chosen from the beginning, you aint gonna make it...people cry because of this...trying like all hell, and then hoping they will make it.

Originally posted by debbiejo
Sure does...But you can't tell a Calvinist that...They'll come up with some main scripture, but at the present moment..I can't remember what it is...

No course not. They'll just take scripture out of context and then when that is refuted they will yell at you.

I used to say.......sooooooooo....what does it matter...why then preach the gospel, cause everything is predestined anyway...Why would god have people born just to have to suffer in hell for eternity...sounds like making people including babies was a waste of time, if they're gonna suffer for eternity....What kind of god is that?...Why not just not make those people then....it is really a strange doctrine.

Originally posted by debbiejo
I used to say.......sooooooooo....what does it matter...why then preach the gospel, cause everything is predestined anyway...Why would god have people born just to have to suffer in hell for eternity...sounds like making people including babies was a waste of time, if they're gonna suffer for eternity....What kind of god is that?...Why not just not make those people then....it is really a strange doctrine.

That is an excellent point.

Originally posted by debbiejo
All of it.........

How did you know what I was thinking !?

Originally posted by debbiejo
All of it.........

thank you... iwas about to say "Genesus Through Wahetever comes in last" but I wasn't sure on your views and scince I had a lot of heated Religious debates int he past...

Jesus Died for all of humanities Sins, Yet we are still born with original sin?

Originally posted by Acherontia
Jesus Died for all of humanities Sins, Yet we are still born with original sin?

Uh...yes? Something wrong with that?

We can go to him anytime to ask forgiveness of our sins...

so you have to ask forgivness first on behalf of "our" outspring first since you are born with original sin

Originally posted by Acherontia
I remeber Readin Somehwere That your "Fate" Of wheither you go to Hell or Heaven is chosen when you are born, so basically, whatever you do during your life is not important because your fate is already written....
You definitely did not get this from the Bible. And it is absolute nonsence. Your choices in life depends your fate regardless of what faith you are.

Originally posted by debbiejo
I used to say.......sooooooooo....what does it matter...why then preach the gospel, cause everything is predestined anyway...Why would god have people born just to have to suffer in hell for eternity...sounds like making people including babies was a waste of time, if they're gonna suffer for eternity....What kind of god is that?...Why not just not make those people then....it is really a strange doctrine.
Just to add, if our lives where predestined by God, there would have been no reason for Jesus to die. Predestination is not a doctrine found in the Bible because it is not from God but man made.

Originally posted by sonnet
Just to add, if our lives where predestined by God, there would have been no reason for Jesus to die. Predestination is not a doctrine found in the Bible because it is not from God but man made. Tell me something? Does the god of The Bible know everything that ever has happened or ever will happen? You know being omniscient, omnipotent etc and all. If he/she/it does know everything that will happen then how is that not predestination. Nothing can happen contrary to god's knowledge as this would prove him fallible and therefore not omnipotent, thus everything must happen according to god's knowledge, thus everything is predestined under an omniscient god.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Tell me something? Does the god of The Bible know everything that ever has happened or ever will happen? You know being omniscient, omnipotent etc and all. If he/she/it does know everything that will happen then how is that not predestination. Nothing can happen contrary to god's knowledge as this would prove him fallible and therefore not omnipotent, thus everything must happen according to god's knowledge, thus everything is predestined under an omniscient god.
God has all knowledge about evrything we will ever know: science, medical, technological etc. When he created man he gave man a will of his own which man used to his own downfall even still today. God does not sit somewhere and watch our evey move and knows what every person will decide every second of the day - he does not have to because he gave the solution to salvation from the fate he decided for the earth and Satan. But you as a person needs to accept His offering of salvation to not be included in His wrath. There in lies your choice. If God knew who would be saved and who not He would have not sacrificed Jesus to die. Earth and the fate of this world is already set by God, but your own fate lies in the choices you make. God left that up to you and me.

So are you saying that god is or isn't omniscient? There's no such thing as partial omniscience. That's a contradiction in terms.

He's incapable of knowing what people will do?

Even if he/she/it is only capable of knowing about future technology that predestines the innovation of said technology by specific people, thus predestining their fate.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So are you saying that god is or isn't omniscient.

He's incapable of knowing what people will do?

Even if he/she/it is only capable of knowing about future technology that predestines the innovation of said technology by specific people, thus predestining their fate.
The Bible tells us that God is omniscient and what that means. Man made up the rest.

what does the bible say omniscient means besides total knowledge

Originally posted by finti
what does the bible say omniscient means besides total knowledge
I'll find the relevant scriptures and let you know.

Originally posted by sonnet
The Bible tells us that God is omniscient and what that means. Man made up the rest. No, you're mistaking The Bible with the dictionary - and both were written by men.

Etymology: New Latin omniscient-, omnisciens, back-formation from Medieval Latin omniscientia
1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge

oh so you havent studied the bible enough to know where to find it

try jeremiah or the psalms

I disagree with god' s alleged attributes.

The different characteristics attributed to god have a tendency to conflict. Christian theologians and Western philosophers have engaged in great efforts to find ways to make them compatible.
In the end, the argument is that the god which is said to exist is either incompatible with reality or is incompatible with itself (because of the conflicting of its claimed characteristics). Either way, then that god cannot exist.

Originally posted by Storm
I disagree with god' s alleged attributes.

The different characteristics attributed to god have a tendency to conflict. Christian theologians and Western philosophers have engaged in great efforts to find ways to make them compatible.
In the end, the argument is that the god which is said to exist is either incompatible with reality or is incompatible with itself (because of the conflicting of its claimed characteristics). Either way, then that god cannot exist. Yep.

Originally posted by finti
so you have to ask forgivness first on behalf of "our" outspring first since you are born with original sin

you mean for humanity?



xmarksthesport>..... Just because you know something is going to happen doesn't mean you are controling it or making it happen.

It does if you are supposedly infallible.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It does if you are supposedly infallible.

Not even the Pope is infallible.

I'm just using that example to show that God may know what I'm going to do and say tomorrow but it does not mean he is making it happen.

Originally posted by finti
oh so you havent studied the bible enough to know where to find it

try jeremiah or the psalms It is easy to quote any scriptures or even just the names of the books like you do, but I prefer to give you exact scriptures and cross references. Unlike you I do not make fun of other people and therefor show my insecurities.

Originally posted by Echuu
Not even the Pope is infallible.

I'm just using that example to show that God may know what I'm going to do and say tomorrow but it does not mean he is making it happen. The Pope is a man, he is not a supposedly infallible god. If god has prior knowledge of what you are going to do and say and is infallible, your actions and words must conform to those of god's knowledge. Therefore god is predestining your actions. If your actions and words do not conform to his knowledge that means god was incorrect and is fallible.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The Pope is a man, he is not a supposedly infallible god. If god has prior knowledge of what you are going to do and say and is infallible, your actions and words must conform to those of god's knowledge. Therefore god is predestining your actions. If your actions and words do not conform to his knowledge that means god was incorrect and is fallible.

So like me knowing that my parents are going to die makes me infallible?

Rather than act foolish you should just go and look up the definition of infallible. Your Pope and parents analogy are flawed.

Infallible means incapable of error.

Is his/her/its knowledge always correct? (Is god infallible?)
Does he/she/it have knowledge of everything that will happen? (Is god omniscient?)

Assuming the answer to the above questions is "Yes." then predestination is a requisite. Actions and events contravening the knowledge of future actions that god has would render him/her/it fallible, and brings into question his/her/its omniscience.

I dont think you are capable of showing a sence of humor that would make you able to make fun of ohters,

I just tried to help you to which direction to look. You dont need to give me exact scriptures, there aint nothing in this bible that you can show me I havent seen many many times before, even if it is hard for you to believe I know my way around the bible just as good as you do.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Rather than act foolish you should just go and look up the definition of infallible. Your Pope and parents analogy are flawed.

Infallible means incapable of error.

Is his/her/its knowledge always correct? (Is god infallible?)
Does he/she/it have knowledge of everything that will happen? (Is god omniscient?)

Assuming the answer to the above questions is "Yes." then predestination is a requisite. Actions and events contravening the knowledge of future actions that god has would render him/her/it fallible, and brings into question his/her/its omniscience.

Rather than act foolish you should read what I really said...

I said "NOT even the Pope is infallible." I know he isn't infallible and I was just pointing to the fault in the Catholic doctrine which says he is.

As for the parents thing I am just saying that just because someone knows something is going to happen doesn't mean they are causing it...infallible or not.

Originally posted by sonnet
It is easy to quote any scriptures or even just the names of the books like you do, but I prefer to give you exact scriptures and cross references. Unlike you I do not make fun of other people and therefor show my insecurities.

You could also do a quick search on the net to find it really easy by typing key words and the word "Bible."

Originally posted by Echuu
Rather than act foolish you should read what I really said...

I said "NOT even the Pope is infallible." I know he isn't infallible and I was just pointing to the fault in the Catholic doctrine which says he is.

As for the parents thing I am just saying that just because someone knows something is going to happen doesn't mean they are causing it...infallible or not. I read what you said. But neither of your analogies are relevant. Unless you're saying that the Christian god isn't meant to be infallible. Just because a person knows something is going to happen doesn't mean they are causing it, true. But if an entity is supposed to have (precognitive) omniscience and is supposed to be infallible, then existence of the entity in itself predestines future events.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I read what you said. But neither of your analogies are relevant. Unless you're saying that the Christian god isn't meant to be infallible. Just because a person knows something is going to happen doesn't mean they are causing it, true. But if an entity is supposed to have (precognitive) omniscience and is supposed to be infallible, then existence of the entity in itself predestines future events.

ok ok here's where I need clarification. The fate issue is relevant and I pretty well agree. But when 'predestination' is mentioned I get wary because of a teaching called Calvinism. It says our souls are predestined to heaven or hell but that we have no control AT ALL of where we go.
Now I do have control over my soul. I could renounce my faith right now and kill myself if I wanted to or I could stay the course like I am doing now.
And Calvinism teaches against that. So from that point I disagree with you but from the point that we are 'destined' to do certain things I agree mostly.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I read what you said. But neither of your analogies are relevant. Unless you're saying that the Christian god isn't meant to be infallible. Just because a person knows something is going to happen doesn't mean they are causing it, true. But if an entity is supposed to have (precognitive) omniscience and is supposed to be infallible, then existence of the entity in itself predestines future events.

your not up to your old twisting what people say tricks are you X