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The Grievous I speak of is the one "Team Ki Adi Mundi" (Jedi master) fought against before his chest plate was crushed by Master Windu. Him versus the Negotiator. You can even give Obi Wan a blaster for this battle if you want.

Obi Wan wins... GG from the Clone wars is no different then GG from ROTS.. He just looks different, and Obi Wan is still more powerful then GG, so Obi Wan wins.

This is, oh, the fourth time this thread has come up. . .

Oh yeah that too, use the search button next time

Originally posted by Fishy
Obi Wan wins... GG from the Clone wars is no different then GG from ROTS.. He just looks different, and Obi Wan is still more powerful then GG, so Obi Wan wins.

"toon-Clone Wars" Gen. G. was no different than Ep 3 Gen. G., you say?.

So you're saying Ep3 Gen. G. had the same abilities and was as agile as he was in the "toon-clone war" series.

You do know that Windu used the Force to crush Grievous' entire torso, causing him to developed a sickly cough, his reflexes were slowed, and he became craven. You do know that right..? ok

I would say that Master Ki Adi Mundi, a member of the Jedi Council was a better Jedi than Obi Wan Kenobi was in many respects, otherwise he wouldn't be a Master Jedi while Obi Wan was still a knight just before ep3, right when Gen. G. caught up with Ki Adi Mundi and several other Jedi.

Why was "Master" Ki Adi Mundi, along with other jedi, sweating and trembling his arse of at the footstep of an approaching Gen. G.?

Was he scared? or maybe he just knew what Gen. G. was capable of.

If Jedi Master Ki Adi Mundi barely escaped with his life leaving 4 or 5 dead jedi behind, what makes you think Jedi knight Obi Wan would do better.

Ki adi was a better master than obi wan....? Wow just wow....

Originally posted by Admiral Akbar
Ki adi was a better master than obi wan....? Wow just wow....

LOL!! What?!

I won't give a response to your statement, as I sense your mocking me..

lol.

Fistofthenorth is right in this ONE instance. Most of the time he isn't

GG was damaged a lot when he during his fight with Mace. Think Anakin taking a lava bath. Same idea. CW GG was better that he was in ROTS, but Obi-wan might still win.

Grievous in his previous state(CW)would win. Not easily because Kenobi isn't a chump...

Didn't the Clone Wars use Mace crushing his chest an excuse for his sickly cough, whereas George Lucas wanted him to have it all along to show that cyborgs aren't infallable, or something?

Even when Grievous was healthy, Dooku told him he couldn't hang with the better Jedi, like Cin and Obi.

Was he even crushed? Isn't LOE more official then the CW cartoons, in which case the crushing of the chest never happened.

Besides for all we know the only one that can judge GG his power thinkgs GG Will lose from Obi Wan in perfect health or not, it doesn't matter to him. Obi Wan is better, he's the better fighter. He would slaughter GG no matter what. And there isn't anything that shows him really getting weaker because of what happened except for of course him not being as powerful as in the cartoons, but nobody is. Really for all we know he just developed a cough.

I like how Mace used something so inherently evil minded by Force crushing Grievious' body.

Windu did nothing that was evil. He was attempting to rescue the Chancellor, who he knew (if captured) would lead to the loss of a war and en entire galaxy in darkness. He had an opening to kill him and prevent the loss of the war, and he took it. He did nothing wrong.

You're thinking consequentially; I'm not. The point is jedi are supposed to have reverence for all life and as Mace himself said, "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."

Using the force to crush a living being is a sith trait, not a jedi trait.

Janus is right, it may lead to better good but its an act that goes against the Jedi Code. Just like killing Palpatine would have, it was the better thing to do probably. But when Mace was ready to do so he was betraying the jedi code.

Yeah. I've heard a lot of talk about how the failings of the jedi order didn't start with Dooku or Anakin really, but also with Mace. He's a wild card character with a lot of pent up hatred and anger, and he lives close to the edge. If he force crushed Grievious to save the chancellor, he is violating the jedi code, whether we like it or not.

But hmm seriously did he do that, in LOE there is no mentioning of it, which one is more official? LOE or the CW?

I don't recall it from LOE, but then I don't retain very much. I read all the Clone Wars novels within a week. My mind's still a bit jumbled.

Originally posted by Fishy
Was he even crushed? Isn't LOE more official then the CW cartoons, in which case the crushing of the chest never happened.

Besides for all we know the only one that can judge GG his power thinkgs GG Will lose from Obi Wan in perfect health or not, it doesn't matter to him. Obi Wan is better, he's the better fighter. He would slaughter GG no matter what. And there isn't anything that shows him really getting weaker because of what happened except for of course him not being as powerful as in the cartoons, but nobody is. Really for all we know he just developed a cough.

Well, as far a lightsaber combat Grievous still has a bit too learn. It states on SW.com that when he and Kenobi started throwing punches on the landing platform, Grievous had the clear advantage. In a Lightsaber duel Grievous might win. In a slugfest Grievous owns. Clone Wars Cartoon is canon. It was made to bridge the gap between the movies.

It is canon, but highly exaggerated. It portrayed GG as a powerful fighter, but who was the real competition for him? Ki adi? the only one there who would put up a fight. Not only that but Ki adi is not a fighter just like qui gon. They are both mentally powerfull not physically, and thats the reason GG was able to beat him. But that does noy make GG a dueling god.

I'm not saying it does. All I am saying is for a guy to only have about three years dueling experience he did pretty well against trained from birth Jedi.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
You're thinking consequentially; I'm not. The point is jedi are supposed to have reverence for all life and as Mace himself said, "We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."

Using the force to crush a living being is a sith trait, not a jedi trait.

So you don't think Mace's crushing of GG chest was trying to keep/restore peace?

Had he'd of killed GG on that ship, peace, so to speak, would've been kept and the war stopped.

Did Obi Wan use "Sith Traits" when he offed GG,..or Darth Maul? They were living things...

There're exceptions to the rule when desperate times call for desperate measures i guess...i mean, Obi Wan used a blaster to kill. Thats definetly not a Jedi trait..but he did it.

To use the force to hurt another human being is against the rules of the Jedi, thats why the Jedi didn't use force choking or lightning as attacks or means in a fight. While Sith did. The nature of that power is evil in itself and thats why the Jedi are not allowed to use it.

Using the force to hurt somebody or to kill somebody is allowed as long as that person is evil, but the first and most important option will always be capturing. The Jedi do not kill their prisoners either. Force techniques that are meant to killed or permanently hurt somebody are evil by nature, and because of that against the Jedi code.

Fishy covered it. Using the Force itself to maim or kill is Sithlike. GL's saga is about the abuse of power, among things. The Force is power given new meaning in the series. Jedi use it wisely and for good; the Sith use it capriciously, and with flimsy rationalization.

Exactly right..

easily mace windu because if rots obiwan took out general grievouse who was ROTS grievous then gg in clone wars isnt anything compared to mace from ROTS

Janus I think your forgetting about Mace using Vaapad which requires him to tap into the darkside. As for Grievous being overpowered if he was don't you think GL would have said something about it?

Originally posted by DarthMaul9123
easily mace windu because if rots obiwan took out general grievouse who was ROTS grievous then gg in clone wars isnt anything compared to mace from ROTS

??

Mace Windu is irrelevant, my friend.

Read the thread title.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
Janus I think your forgetting about Mace using Vaapad which requires him to tap into the darkside. As for Grievous being overpowered if he was don't you think GL would have said something about it?

No, first off... Vaapad doesn't require him to act in a dark side manner; it involves him flirting with the dark side while maintaining his good alignment. The moment he does something dark side-esque, he loses it, and comes unraveled. Depa was consumed by the dark side and Vaapad for giving in.

Second, GL didn't protest The Crystal Star, NJO Luke, the title "Darth" in KOTOR or Nihilus... honestly, I don't think he really cares because it makes him money no matter what.

Theres a difference he probably hasn't read those books as to where he actually watched the CW.

That's a damn stupid cop out right there.

Half of the things GL put in the PT he pulled out of Eu, everything from Aayla Secura to Darth Bane and the double bladed lightsaber.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
No, first off... Vaapad doesn't require him to act in a dark side manner; it involves him flirting with the dark side while maintaining his good alignment. The moment he does something dark side-esque, he loses it, and comes unraveled. Depa was consumed by the dark side and Vaapad for giving in.

Second, GL didn't protest The Crystal Star, NJO Luke, the title "Darth" in KOTOR or Nihilus... honestly, I don't think he really cares because it makes him money no matter what.

Ahh...money...one of the most powerful forces in this world.

fist of the north has got the idea a lot better than most of you. Deux, you just use your own facts and dont listen or reply to ones that contradict you for instance fist of the north said "There're exceptions to the rule when desperate times call for desperate measures i guess...i mean, Obi Wan used a blaster to kill. Thats definitely not a Jedi trait..but he did it." Your exact reply afterwards was "Fishy covered it. Using the Force itself to maim or kill is Sithlike. GL's saga is about the abuse of power, among things. The Force is power given new meaning in the series. Jedi use it wisely and for good; the Sith use it capriciously, and with flimsy rationalization" You havent actually replied to what was said before. This is because you know that obi won using a blaster to kill grievous was against the jedi ways but you knew that it contradicted what you said so you ignored it and hoped that people would forget it.

The use of a gun is not the use of the Dark Side, Obi Wan calls it barbaric or primitive I don't remember. But the gun is not a tool of the Dark Side, it is a tool of destruction and his only choice. But he did not use the force to kill GG did he? He didn't use the Dark Side of the force to destroy GG. He just everything he could that was around him and took GG out.

I always enjoy it when people start bashing me on multiple threads because I can be that charming. Here you go.

So you don't think Mace's crushing of GG chest was trying to keep/restore peace?


Had he'd of killed GG on that ship, peace, so to speak, would've been kept and the war stopped.

First off, the war may very well have continued. The only way the war would have totally stopped is if Sidious was removed fromt he equation. He is the one who blackmailed and pressured the Separatists, enlisted Dooku's aid, and set evrything up. GG is minor, and using a force power in a Sithlike manner is not justified, period. This is the jedi code.


Did Obi Wan use "Sith Traits" when he offed GG,..or Darth Maul? They were living things...

He most certainly did. He also uses emotions and lets Anakin get away with a lot despite the fact that he KNOWS Anakin is with Padme. Obi-Wan is a good man, but he's still a human being. He never completely upheld the jedi code in many ways. When he fought with Maul, he was enraged. He bisected Maul, which is frowned upon in Jedi lightsaber etiquette. Later, when he shot Grievious, he was acting out of survival instinct and not adherance to the jedi code. Period. He's lucky Yoda didn't see him.


There're exceptions to the rule when desperate times call for desperate measures i guess...i mean, Obi Wan used a blaster to kill. Thats definetly not a Jedi trait..but he did it.

It appears to be that way, but the jedi code is an absolute binding law of what one ought to do. It's not subjective in any way. Thus, while we might applaud Obi-Wan for being crafty enough to use the blaster, it was still morally wrong by the code he has sworn to uphold his whole life.

There, Darth Supremus... was all that not obvious to you beforehand? Or did you really, really want me to give you the right answers?

Was it? Seriously was the use of the gun against the code? He used a tool of destruction and murder, yes against the code. But he didn't use it for any offensive purposes. He used it to defend himself. He didn't train for it it just came to him and he didn't use the Dark Side to use the gun, he didn't give into any emotions at that time, except for finishing his mission. He had no choice if he wanted to do what he had to do.

I'm not so sure on using a gun in this case is against the code.

well deux ex i have just read what he said and he has actually given better points than you and all he needed was 9 lines

Well, cosidering that the jedi ALWAYS believe in capturing as opposed to killing, Obi-Wan didn't do a very good job of capturing Grievious, did he?

Originally posted by birthoftheforce
well deux ex i have just read what he said and he has actually given better points than you and all he needed was 9 lines

Oh joy... another hater.

Are you darth supremus, too?

How cute.

If you actually read what I said and what he said and you thought about it, you'd see I totally answered his question. Now go bug your mother or something.

No, but capturing is their first priority... Killing is allowed when they have no other choice... Its not what they should do, but when they have no choice the Jedi are allowed to do it. Preferably not though. And as long as they don't use the Dark Side it probably doesn't matter...

I don't agree with that. If "not using the dark side" opens up the opportunity to kill, this means that the jedi as an order don't mind non force sensitives murdering and killing for whatever reason.

And the point is, the jedi should ALWAYS work to take someone prisoner. I mean, it may seem like Obi-Wan had no other choice, but he did. Even Anakin had a clear view of the jedi code when he said they should take in Dooku and later Sidious, not kill them. -Despite their potential threat, even-.

Take a look at Luke Skywalker: He faced Vader. But at the last moment, despite what we might consider better judgment, he dropped his lightsaber and refused to kill vader or Sidious. He refused to give in to base, petty human hatred... hence, the dark side. Luke may have been writhing on the floor later, suffering, but he won a moral victory.

If you don't believe in moral objectivism or at least are familiar with it, none of the above will make any sense to you. we've been over this before, Fishy.

No because this has nothing to do with Morale, this has to do with your mission towards the Jedi. Your mission is to stop GG, preferably by capturing him. But nobody cared when GG died, Jedi have killed Dark Jedi and Sith throughout all ages. Why? Not because its the good thing to do and if it could be avoided it should be avoided. But if you can not avoid it then you can not avoid it and you will just have to do it.

I agree Obi Wan should not have done it, but I do not think it was an effective violatin against the Jedi Code.

jedi only aimed on capturing their enemy if their enemy was defenceless such as after anakin had just cut dookus hands off.

stop pretending that you know the jedi code inside out because you dont

Fishy, I hope you're not confusing morale with moral. And the jedi are not about survival. Even Yoda has a casual attitude towards his own death. They believe you become one with the Force; why would such scenarios be accepted and even applauded? The jedi revere life, and the Force comes from life. Death is never a good thing to them, even to an enemy.

And birthoftheforce, you know apparently nothing, since all you do is sit around and bash on my every word. Please. Go away.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Fishy, I hope you're not confusing morale with moral. And the jedi are not about survival. Even Yoda has a casual attitude towards his own death. They believe you become one with the Force; why would such scenarios be accepted and even applauded? The jedi revere life, and the Force comes from life. Death is never a good thing to them, even to an enemy.

And birthoftheforce, you know apparently nothing, since all you do is sit around and bash on my every word. Please. Go away.

Seeing as I don't know what the hell the difference is supposed to be, I don't know if i'm confusing one with the other.

And yeah you are right Yoda had a casual attitude towards his own death, but not when he had to deal with Sidious he wanted to survive then. Otherwise he would have risked it. Besides you have to remember, Yoda the one that practically created the order and the new Jedi Code was the one that said they had to destroy the Sith and that he had to kill Sidious.

He went there to kill, Sidious surrendering would have done, but his primary mission wasn't to capture Sidious. His primary mission was to take him out, either by death or by capture.

Originally posted by Fishy
Seeing as I don't know what the hell the difference is supposed to be, I don't know if i'm confusing one with the other.

And yeah you are right Yoda had a casual attitude towards his own death, but not when he had to deal with Sidious he wanted to survive then. Otherwise he would have risked it. Besides you have to remember, Yoda the one that practically created the order and the new Jedi Code was the one that said they had to destroy the Sith and that he had to kill Sidious.

He went there to kill, Sidious surrendering would have done, but his primary mission wasn't to capture Sidious. His primary mission was to take him out, either by death or by capture.

Morale is the general good spirits of men in combat. Bad morale can lead to bad performance or even desertion.

And Yoda was casual about his death, but I don't neccessarily think his concern in the battle with Sidious was for himself. If he died and Obi-Wan failed, who would see to it that the Sith were challenged later on in the future?

And it's not entirely clear whether or not Yoda was out to kill Sidious, although I wouldn't think he would pass up the opportunity, since Sidious DID obliterate the jedi order right under Yoda's nose. IF so, this is a case where even Yoda can't abide by the code because of life's demands. It shows the contrast between what we want and what rules tell us we should do.

Ohh yeah stupid me, I knew that..

And if Yoda was out to kill Sidious it could show us that the rules are either different then you think, or that he's not listening to them anymore.

Actually now that I think of it, him just throwing away the rules doesn't seem that strange when you watch ESB he doesn't seem to care as much about them anymore. He never really taught Luke much of the things he taught other Jedi. Kinda strange really.

I thought this birthoftheforce chump got banned. . .

dude you are just plain stupid if you do not know the difference between morale and moral

Originally posted by birthoftheforce
dude you are just plain stupid if you do not know the difference between morale and moral

Dude thx for calling me stupid, second of all I know the difference I just didn't realise what the word meant when I read it.. One of the downsides of having another first language. Can you read and write Dutch as well as I can English? If no then please shut the **** up and move on. okay? Thank you.

Originally posted by birthoftheforce
dude you are just plain stupid if you do not know the difference between morale and moral

I really don't know what to say. I don't really want to get into another idiotic rumble with you. But insulting someone like Fishy, especially using the particular insults you did, is just plain hypocritical, not to mention, in your words, 'just plain stupid.'

You're calling me stupid. You worship some guy called artoo and im stupid. Go suck on some jawa

Since obviously you have absolutely no sense of humor, I won't bother explaining.

However, insulting Fishy based on one error is yes, stupid. Idiotic, unreasonable, stupid. Not to mention that the dude learned English off of video games. Actually, he's better spoken than you. So I suggest you hold your tongue in the future. I won't hesistate to report you. We actually have a Code of Conduct. Follow it.

Originally posted by birthoftheforce
You're calling me stupid. You worship some guy called artoo and im stupid. Go suck on some jawa

hystericalhysterical

. . .

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
. . .

I'm not laughing at the insult he gave you or you yourself. I am laughing at him. I don't keep grudges

actually faunus if i wanted to speak better english than any of you i could but i choose not to. Also explain to me again how calling fishy stupid for what he said is stupid. You could of said rude, un-called for or even dikhed but what i said to fishy is not stupid. By calling me stupid i assume you mean that i am lacking knowledge in what i said. if that is what you believe than you are stupid. jawa geek.

You can speak better English than us, huh?

Proof is in the pudding, kid. Prove up. Or better, shut up if all you're gonna do is pop in and insult people. You already got banned before, and you should be banned again for having socks.

Originally posted by birthoftheforce
actually faunus if i wanted to speak better english than any of you i could but i choose not to. Also explain to me again how calling fishy stupid for what he said is stupid. You could of said rude, un-called for or even dikhed but what i said to fishy is not stupid. By calling me stupid i assume you mean that i am lacking knowledge in what i said. if that is what you believe than you are stupid. jawa geek.

Better English, huh? Awkward......

dude what the hell are you on

umm... lol? What am I on? Be a little more specific.

Originally posted by ReverendMakashi
I'm not laughing at the insult he gave you or you yourself. I am laughing at him. I don't keep grudges

Kewl. That makes two of us.

birthoftheforce, go away. Really. Just leave.

He's like the kid who keeps putting his hand in the cookie jar. Better attention is better than no attention.

Originally posted by birthoftheforce
actually faunus if i wanted to speak better english than any of you i could but i choose not to. Also explain to me again how calling fishy stupid for what he said is stupid. You could of said rude, un-called for or even dikhed but what i said to fishy is not stupid. By calling me stupid i assume you mean that i am lacking knowledge in what i said. if that is what you believe than you are stupid. jawa geek.

Is that so. Well prove it to me. I would really like to see your true knowledge, seeing as how you managed to fool all of us by not using grammar or not respecting the English Language. Tip: Try capitalizing the letters that you start a sentence with or Proper Nouns. Question: If you can speak better than all of us, why put up a front that your a blithering idiot?

Originally posted by ReverendMakashi
Is that so. Well prove it to me. I would really like to see your true knowledge, seeing as how you managed to fool all of us by not using grammar or not respecting the English Language. Tip: Try capitalizing the letters that you start a sentence with or Proper Nouns. Question: If you can speak better than all of us, why put up a front that your a blithering idiot?

*Yawns*

What are you, 80 yr. old Eng. I major?

chill out, he's not in class, he's in a forum, where people make mistakes, as you and i do. sometimes even on purpose.

No one likes overblown oratory or pseudo-scientific gobbledygook and pontifical hooey. lol

Leave your pomposity in the tub and just relax and have fun, dude

don't blow a vein.

This coming from the guy who flips out and starts cursing, netting himself a warning no less.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
This coming from the guy who flips out and starts cursing, netting himself a warning no less.

shall i go back into those ways then?

it seems your're promoting it?

since i got back from my 2 week ban a week ago, you know, the unjust ban you and your minions imposed on me at your request, iv'e chilled.

but thats another book. i will not sit here and write about my thoughts on how pathetic it's is to argue with others on the internet.

this is the 3rd time you've tried to aggresively engage me. and you had my thread closed yesterday. i fell for your ignorance once, or the last time i should say, rather. i mean don't get me wrong, i'd fiercly & sensibly debate you balls to bones if i think your wrong.

i will speak no more on this matter. and i want to be neither your friend or enemy. and i already told you that i come in peace. but this is for you, Janus..

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
shall i go back into those ways then?

it seems your're promoting it?

since i got back from my 2 week ban a week ago, you know, the unjust ban you and your minions imposed on me at your request, iv'e chilled.

but thats another book. i will not sit here and write about my thoughts on how pathetic it's is to argue with others on the internet.

this is the 3rd time you've tried to aggresively engage me. and you had my thread closed yesterday. i fell for your ignorance once, or the last time i should say, rather. i mean don't get me wrong, i'd fiercly & sensibly debate you balls to bones if i think your wrong.

i will speak no more on this matter. and i want to be neither your friend or enemy. and i already told you that i come in peace. but this is for you, Janus..

Actually, a mod saw you flipping out and cursing and had you banned, not me.

Second, I'm not aggressively engaging you. I think it's funny when you said what you said considering your past for repeated warnings by mods for your heated behavior.

And third, nice pic.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
*Yawns*

What are you, 80 yr. old Eng. I major?

chill out, he's not in class, he's in a forum, where people make mistakes, as you and i do. sometimes even on purpose.

No one likes overblown oratory or pseudo-scientific gobbledygook and pontifical hooey. lol

Leave your pomposity in the tub and just relax and have fun, dude

don't blow a vein.




No I'm not a 80 year old English Prof. I am guy who could kick your ass though

Originally posted by ReverendMakashi
No I'm not a 80 year old English Prof. I am guy who could kick your ass though

Prove it.

Prove war doesn't lead to peace.

LOL, this fight is in the bag, Grievous. The only way that Windu beat Grievous the first time was because he got lucky.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Prove it.



I don't open up can o' whoop@$$ by physical means, but by exorcisms...

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Prove war doesn't lead to peace.

Iraq.

lol nuff said