Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Can a "good" Jedi, (any class) use Force lighting?

I never read or saw anything on it.

Enlighten.

Of course. It's not what Force power is used, it's how it's used. Kyle Katarn and Kreia have the smartest grasps on Force Theology.

That's neutrality EU BS; the jedi (read: force users who abide by the jedi code, not the overrated cheap knockoffs in video games or NJO novels) should never use Sith lightning, because it is inherently an aggressive and evil power, meant to kill and hurt, not to defend or aid.

Right, and when a Jedi cuts off an opponents head, that WASN'T aggressive or meant ot hurt the poor guy, was it?

Originally posted by Deus Ex
That's neutrality EU BS; the jedi (read: force users who abide by the jedi code, not the overrated cheap knockoffs in video games or NJO novels) should never use Sith lightning, because it is inherently an aggressive and evil power, meant to kill and hurt, not to defend or aid.

Uh-huh. A knife is a knife whether it is used in self-defense or to hold up a bar, so why would a Force Power be any different?

Sometimes it's necessary. If you were dueling someone, and knew that should they live, they would cause incredible havoc and death in the galaxy, and you had an opening to kill them, would you take it?

Police and military forces use guns everyday to defend people. Intention is everything.

Right. But as Terry Pratchet says in Thud! if you torture a enemy for good reasons it will just lead to bad reasons. This is why I agree with Kreia that the death of the Force would be a good thing. No more Sith Lords or snooty Jedi, just ordinary people who have to really on thier skills like the rest of us.

Firstly, Jedi are discouraged to decapitate or bisect enemies. They -are- encouraged to disarm enemies to disable them but leave them alive andable to walk.

Second, a knife is a knife. And if you use it to kill or hurt, you are not acting in accord with the jedi code, period.

Third, guns -shouldn't- be used in an ideal world to defend people unless they are completely nonlethal. But real cops are horrible shots and average people with no in-depth knowledge of ethics and reasoning.

Fourth, it may seem neccessary to hurt or kill people, but that doesn't make it morally right.

Final point being, Jedi can physically use sith lightning, but no jedi who abides by the code ever would, period.

Janus is right. Jedi aren't supposed to use force lightning. They aren't supposed to cut off someone's head. But they aren't supposed to sit on their arse's and die and then let some Sith take over tha galaxy. NJO Jedi aren't Jedi in the PT sense. They follow the view called the Unifying Force instead of the Living Force.

I'm not sure a Jedi could use Force lightning. My theory is that Force lightning is just a Force push, i.e. pushing electrons together. The ability to see electrons is an unnatural power, a power that only a sith lord could have.

So you don't think that healing yourself in minutes in weird? What about being able to make things spontaneously combust? Jedi have strange powers too.

I've always looked at it like this..

The Force is pure energy, but ceartain powers, after going through your cells and being, become either peverse concentrated forms of evil, or light atoning bodies of light.

Force Lightning is not in itself evil, but when you manifest the power, it converts to evil, it ignites the ceartain frequincies in your brain that would promote malice and malevolance. So when you manifest Force Lightning, you draw yourself closer to the darkside..

ALTERNATIVELY: There is light/darksides to The Force. Both co-exsist simutanously like ying/yang. And to use Force Lightning is to use more yang or "dark" power. Thus, you are more actively pursuing the path to the darkside.

I agree with Spelljammer.

Welcome to one of the inconsistencies with Star Wars.

See, the big reasoning was that using the Force directly to harm is a "dark side" thing. But then why do jedi get away with pushing and pulling? That can cause harm. It could even cause serious injury or death, as people break bones and even die all of the time from falls. And why is it okay to shove someone around but not to squeeze (choke)? You might actually cause less damage with a light, controlled Force "chokehold" than by throwing someone bodily to the ground.

It doesn't make sense precisely because it's poorly conceived. And that's even WITHOUT getting into the inherently violent and destructive nature of lightsabers. Why don't jedi use stun weapons instead, if they're TRULY not pursuing violence and destruction?

All of this is, further, without getting into the frightening nature of the Jedi Code itself. I'd love to see someone who actually followed it to a T. "There is no emotion"? Well now, where would that ACTUALLY lead? With truly no emotion whatsoever, how could you have compassion? How could you care about choosing "right" over "wrong"? How could any person's life mean anything in particular to you?

I don't want to meet the person who has truly managed to dispense with emotion, thanks.

This is why I try to just shut off my brain when I'm dealing with Star Wars. This isn't the Matrix -- it isn't well-thought out philosophy. It's just a cheesy western in space with laser swords.

Actually if Jedi wanted to prusue peace they probably would've been better off using the phasers from Star Wars.. when need be the could set the phasers to a higher level, but normaly they'd just put them on "stun".

Sith could use lightsabers.
Jedi could use phasers.

It'd be a kickass battle of guns versus swords taken to new heights..

The basic logic here- that the Force as a weapon is just a tool and no more innately evil than, say, a Lightsabre- is very true and is certainly a good reason why there is no reason Jedi cannot Grip, which is only telekinesis after all.

However, there is a theory that Lightning is only possible if you focus your hatred and so forth. In which case, tool or otherwise, Jedi simply wouldn't do it- not because the Lightning itself is evil, but because the means to create it is.

Of course, we have absolutely no indication of any of this in the films, so I stick to the simple version. As we have seen powerful good guys and powerful bad guys, but ONLY powerful bad guys have ever used Lightning...

... therefore it seems reasonable to conclude that good guys cannot use it.

I don't actually see an SW inconsistency, Orestes, though to be sure with things like that Code the EU has complicated the issue.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
The basic logic here- that the Force as a weapon is just a tool and no more innately evil than, say, a Lightsabre- is very true and is certainly a good reason why there is no reason Jedi cannot Grip, which is only telekinesis after all.

However, there is a theory that Lightning is only possible if you focus your hatred and so forth. In which case, tool or otherwise, Jedi simply wouldn't do it- not because the Lightning itself is evil, but because the means to create it is.

Of course, we have absolutely no indication of any of this in the films, so I stick to the simple version. As we have seen powerful good guys and powerful bad guys, but ONLY powerful bad guys have ever used Lightning...

... therefore it seems reasonable to conclude that good guys cannot use it.

I don't actually see an SW inconsistency, Orestes, though to be sure with things like that Code the EU has complicated the issue.

Well ... in the D20 game, at least, using Force Grip nets you a Dark side point. What's more, I can't recall -- in the movies, at least -- any Light sider ever using it.

I've given this issue a lot of thought, actually. After a long period of consideration, I came to the conclusion that no matter how you rationalize what is and isn't "Dark," something always fails to fit. And yes, I already thought of the idea that lightning itself is inherently evil. That still doesn't reconcile the grip vs. push issue, which is the really thorny one.

If anyone can think of a way to make it all make sense, hey, please hit me with it. I'd love that.

Luke uses grip to non-lethally subdue the Gammoreans at Jabb'a palace. I have never seen a rationale which explains that Jedi cannot use it.

Originally posted by Orestes
Well ... in the D20 game, at least, using Force Grip nets you a Dark side point. What's more, I can't recall -- in the movies, at least -- any Light sider ever using it.

I've given this issue a lot of thought, actually. After a long period of consideration, I came to the conclusion that no matter how you rationalize what is and isn't "Dark," something always fails to fit. And yes, I already thought of the idea that lightning itself is inherently evil. That still doesn't reconcile the grip vs. push issue, which is the really thorny one.

If anyone can think of a way to make it all make sense, hey, please hit me with it. I'd love that.

Luke force choked two Gammoreans.

Didn't this Plo Koon jedi use lightning? That's EU!

As for the movies, Sidious would have to teach you! You have to be buddies with him!
And I see nothing wrong with a jedi using dark side related techniques, it happens.. As long as they don't lose their minds..

Its against the Jedi Code pure and simple, perhaps there isn't anything wrong with it for some people, but its against the code. Meaning that it could make you fall to the Dark Side faster or move you away from the Jedi.

Whatever the case a good Jedi would never use lightning. A good person with force powers might, but shouldn't.

Plo Koon's lightning is natural; it's a racial talent.

Yeah, I kind of thought that.. Still, isn't the lightning from his fingertips the same as the force one? Does anyone know if he actually used it against opponents?

ForceLightning being forbidden corresponds well with my already philsophy of the darkside being the easier side.

Not stronger the darkside, simply faster..

Consider this, isn't it alot more tedious and inconveient to have to manipulate the will of someone to see the error of thier ways or atleast to make them into an un-threat?

Or to out-combat them in a lightsaber duel using The Force as a means of protection to heal your wounds and pump up your muscles?

Or you could take "the easy way out" and just incenerate your foe with a blast of Force Lightning. No fuss, no muss..

Guys.

There are no D&D rules when it comes to the friggn force. Do what you want to do. You're not gonna gain +5 darkside points if you use lightning.

No! zzzOMG!!1 It is from aggressssive nature!! It is not allowed!!!!1!!!11

But seriously if I would be a stupid padawan and I should suddenly find out how to exactly use force lightning, Yoda would throw a celebration party for me!
It would be a great way for the jedi to maintain the peace by merely shocking enemies when they are getting dangerous! Cool!

Originally posted by Tru_Slice
Guys.

There are no D&D rules when it comes to the friggn force. Do what you want to do. You're not gonna gain +5 darkside points if you use lightning.

Here's a frightening take on the morality and power issues of the SW saga.

You probably kick cats, don't you?

Originally posted by Ganner Rhysode
Right, and when a Jedi cuts off an opponents head, that WASN'T aggressive or meant ot hurt the poor guy, was it? Huh. And said Jedi should never disarm fellow Jedi, it's just not Karma baby...YEAH!

lol.
Oh and since when did you ever believe Plo Koon used lightning Janus..

Originally posted by Tru_Slice
Guys.

There are no D&D rules when it comes to the friggn force. Do what you want to do. You're not gonna gain +5 darkside points if you use lightning.
Yes, and I'm sure you despise the alingment system, and how paladins and clerics must follow a strict code of ethics despite how the paladin is a melee juggarnaut and the cleric is so overly broken power-wise it isn't even funny. Don't even get me started on the druid.

I don't think I need to remind you of the old quote With great power, comes great responsibility. You have a responsibility to yourself and others to not abuse said power, and you dude, would fall faster to the darkside then a bag of bricks with that frame of mind that no-one has a responsibility. That's why you think Force Lightning is a perfectly acceptable power, because you're darkside..

Originally posted by Spelljammer
Yes, and I'm sure you despise the alingment system, and how paladins and clerics must follow a strict code of ethics despite how the paladin is a melee juggarnaut and the cleric is so overly broken power-wise it isn't even funny. Don't even get me started on the druid.

I don't think I need to remind you of the old quote With great power, comes great responsibility. You have a responsibility to yourself and others to not abuse said power, and you dude, would fall faster to the darkside then a bag of bricks with that frame of mind that no-one has a responsibility. That's why you think Force Lightning is a perfectly acceptable power, because you're darkside.. This would explain why the Jedi did so poorly against the Vong. Lightning was physical and a produce of Force-energy so it would have affected the Vong. But noooooo...the Jedi were pussies. Only Kyp had the right idea.

That and the fact that the Vong were Super Ultra Juggernauts at level 87 and the Jedi were only Cosmic Cleric Paladins at level 49. GRRRRR I play Dungeons and Dragons! I'm Kickass!

Ironicaly in the D&D Star Wars (SW d20) Jedi are terribly weak. The Force system is a bad combination of HARP (So they work like skills), power points, (Like Final Fantasy does with mana.) and HP loss. (Like some d6 systems use to do..) ALL AT THE SAME TIME!

And the darkside seems alot more intraguing when The Force causes you to be drained of HP, mana, and has a chance of failure ANYWAY.. but even the darkside evidently gets screwed over later on when those darkside penalties stack up. And at that I'm talking major penalties.. SW d20 is something I find perfect for giritty adventuring, but it's not open game matireal so I can't find anything on it.. (Which is stupid considering Wizards is going to drop it anyway..)

Ofcourse if you think that's bad you obviously havn't played Hyborian Age or Conan d20. That system is so mean to the players it makes my systems look like Candy Land d20..

Originally posted by Ganner Rhysode
Right, and when a Jedi cuts off an opponents head, that WASN'T aggressive or meant ot hurt the poor guy, was it?

Different issue. First off, if the guy is an opponent, I think it doesn't really matter how they kill him with their lightsaber; if they are under attack, they have every right to strike back, injure, kill. It's part of the job.

Lightning, however, is manifested through the harnessing of hatred, fear, anger, jealousy, etc. That is not only morally bad for a Jedi, it's mentally bad. That Jedi should (and would) be going to the Dark Side, if not already.

And then there's always the fact that the Sith Lightning could be just that: only the Sith know it.

Originally posted by Bespin Bart
Different issue. First off, if the guy is an opponent, I think it doesn't really matter how they kill him with their lightsaber; if they are under attack, they have every right to strike back, injure, kill. It's part of the job.

Lightning, however, is manifested through the harnessing of hatred, fear, anger, jealousy, etc. That is not only morally bad for a Jedi, it's mentally bad. That Jedi should (and would) be going to the Dark Side, if not already.

And then there's always the fact that the Sith Lightning could be just that: only the Sith know it. AH! What about all the Dark Jedi who have learnt it in EU?

They can all rot in hell.

lol! Amen!

This thread is retarted...Lucas cleary states that a True Jedi would never use the Dark Side for any reason.

Originally posted by Veneficus
This thread is retarted...Lucas cleary states that a True Jedi would never use the Dark Side for any reason.

As I wrote when I started this thread, "I never read or saw anything on it."

And in this case, I've never heard Lucas say anything about it. I wanted knowledge on the topic because it intrigued me.

This thread has not retarded my thought on the matter, but actually enlightened it, as I requested, my friend.

I am sure the Jedi know how to use the power, but they probably do not use it.


The answer to your question is No. They aren't allowed to use the power. But they could if they wanted to!



http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/8704/l6a4md.jpg
F*CKIN PWNED JAWA STYLE!

And that is just really good, awesomely Yoda fan art.

Well, if anything, Jedi know of it, but most likely do not practice it or learn it, because if they did not fall to the Dark Side after using it, then an author needs to be shot.

Originally posted by Sorgo
I am sure the Jedi know how to use the power, but they probably do not use it.


The answer to your question is No. They aren't allowed to use the power. But they could if they wanted to!



http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/8704/l6a4md.jpg
F*CKIN PWNED JAWA STYLE!

Now that has got to be "The" best peice of Star Wars art I've seen in this entire forum, ever.

And I've seen hundreds of pieces on here.

*nods*

http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/4997/planetmadalore3lr.jpg

Three pages in, and still nobody has managed to even come close to clearing up the inconsistencies.

Oh, well. I didn't really expect anyone could. C'est la vie.

I'll do it then. Many Jedi "can", but don't because it goes against their beliefs. Think of it like, Muslims "can" eat pork, but they don't because it goes against their beliefs.

Fair enough.

That Yoda pic is nice, but he looks like Elmer Fudd the goblin kinda with that nose.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'll do it then. Many Jedi "can", but don't because it goes against their beliefs. Think of it like, Muslims "can" eat pork, but they don't because it goes against their beliefs.

That doesn't make sense to me, really it doesn't.

Jedi shouldn't/wouldn't/couldn't unless there was seriously something wrong with said Jedi, and it apparently takes a lot of practice and anger/hatred/fear/jealousy/whatever to conjure lightning anyway, and a Jedi is not going to be practicing Dark Side techniques such as the lightning.

I think this thread has potential to become a religious/political discussion (wich is bad).. But to answer the threads topic, I think that force lightning is just that, can be learned by any force user, does not make you evil.. And I think it's probably even better to electrocute your sith opponent than chopping his head off. That lightning can at least be survived.

Overlord, you don't know a thing about which you're speaking.

It's called "Sith lightning" for a reason. Duh.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
That's neutrality EU BS; the jedi (read: force users who abide by the jedi code, not the overrated cheap knockoffs in video games or NJO novels) should never use Sith lightning, because it is inherently an aggressive and evil power, meant to kill and hurt, not to defend or aid.
You are correct. However, he is asking whether or not the individual has the ability to do so (I believe).

Thus, the answer is yes.

Originally posted by Orestes
Three pages in, and still nobody has managed to even come close to clearing up the inconsistencies.

Oh, well. I didn't really expect anyone could. C'est la vie.

THat's because they are in your head.

lol

Originally posted by Ushgarak
THat's because they are in your head.

Now that's childish. I gave the reasons why I felt there were inconsistencies before, and there have been several pages' worth of discussion on this, and still nobody has really fully agreed. If it's in my head, I'm apparently sharing a mass hallucination with a whole lot of other people.

I mean, come on.

I questioned why using the Force to grip or strike would be somehow "Dark side," yet using it to shove or create a damaging whirlwind isn't ... and nobody has cleared that up. A few HAVE stated that they believe that none of those actions would be "Dark" (and at least one thinks even lightning wouldn't be), but at the very least, the D20 system makes using the Force to grip and to strike both Dark.

And why? Because they use the Force to cause damage? Well, so does pushing, pulling and creating a whirlwind. So it makes no sense.

As far as the books and the movies go, I'm not aware that a clear line has EVER really been drawn between what's "Light" and "Dark" in terms of using the Force.

The nature of the act makes it different.

Lets assume here that every force technique requires at least some kind of training. The primary use for pushing or pulling can still be to remove obstacles from your path and it is indeed a vital for thing for all force users light side or dark. But it can also easily and quickly without to much damage take out groups of people or disable just one. Its far more for disabling then taking out.

Now a choke, can never ever ever be used for good. Maybe for the greater good but the act of doing it can never be good. Putting time into learning it, would mean you are putting time into learning something that can only be used for evil. That by itself is evil...

Lightning is another thing like that, the few instances you can use it for good do not match up to the time it will take to learn it, not to mention that the good things you can use it for can be done by other things as well. And for almost all things it would be evil.

You can say its no different then killing somebody with a lightsaber well there is a difference. A Jedi may only strike out of defense and not for an offensive reason. Now a force attack like lightning will always be offensive and therefor wrong. Even if used in a defensive way its still an offensive attack designed to do maximum damage, something like that is just against the code. You can move around it all you want it doesn't change a thing its against the Jedi code. The very idea of that attack is that its supposed to kill or maim, Jedi are not supposed to do that unless its a last resort. They are supposed to take their prisoners alive if at all possible. Unless it isn't possible then you can kill, but only then.

And thats ignoring the pain you put somebody through when you shoot lightning at them, the very act of torturing is evil. And lightning is going to torture somebody..

Ores did you read the posts throughly? Though that one newbie's got deleted for a one-liner, he agreed with me that the reasoning was probably because Force Lightning is infact a DARKSIDE power. That the darkside and the lightside co-exsist simutanously. When you manifest Force Lightning, you are invaribably pulling energy from the darkside of The Force, so ofcourse, you're going to bring yourself one step closer to the darkside..

Or alternatively (but this is a bigger stretch) manifesting Force Lightning aggarvates the chemichals in the brain that cause raw negative emotions such as hate, anger, resentment, fear, etc. Things The Jedi try to avoid being at all costs..

Originally posted by Orestes
Now that's childish. I gave the reasons why I felt there were inconsistencies before, and there have been several pages' worth of discussion on this, and still nobody has really fully agreed. If it's in my head, I'm apparently sharing a mass hallucination with a whole lot of other people.

I mean, come on.

I questioned why using the Force to grip or strike would be somehow "Dark side," yet using it to shove or create a damaging whirlwind isn't ... and nobody has cleared that up. A few HAVE stated that they believe that none of those actions would be "Dark" (and at least one thinks even lightning wouldn't be), but at the very least, the D20 system makes using the Force to grip and to strike both Dark.

And why? Because they use the Force to cause damage? Well, so does pushing, pulling and creating a whirlwind. So it makes no sense.

As far as the books and the movies go, I'm not aware that a clear line has EVER really been drawn between what's "Light" and "Dark" in terms of using the Force.

No-one else is discussing an 'inconsistency', only talking about an idea. Like I say, the idea that it is inconsistent is in your head.

No, it never has been defined what is Light and Dark force wise. It's not even discussed if such a difference exists.

Nor does it matter. There is no inconsistency.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Nor does it matter. There is no inconsistency.
Do or do not, there is no try..

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Overlord, you don't know a thing about which you're speaking.

It's called "Sith lightning" for a reason. Duh.

Funny. I always thought it was called "Force Lightning" ...

Which may mean alot.

Out of many things, It may mean that anyone whom is adept in the ways of the Force, be the person good or bad, has the sensible ability to harness Force Lightning.

I have come to my own rational conclusion to my thread question after reading all the posts in this thread and that is this:

The answer to the thread question is simply yes. "Good" Jedi can use Force Lightning because they have the abilities to do so. In order to harness Force lightning you'd need Force powers. Powers Jedi already posses.

Whether they would use it or not or how they'd use it and for what purpose they'd use it for is irrelevant.

To me, "Good" Jedi can do Force lightning simply because they have the facilities and capability to do so, technically speaking. Morally speaking is another issue and still digressive.

No, good Jedi can not use lightning. Powerful Jedi perhaps

Powerful lightside force uers can (probably), but using lightning is against the Jedi Code. And you wouldn't be a good Jedi if you use it anymore..

Fair enough, by what you wanted, FOTN.

Agreed.

Also take into account as stated many of times, the darkside is the easy way out.

You talk about lightsabers. Let's say on a damage scale from 1 to 10, lightsabers are somewhere in the faccinity of 4.

Force Lightning is most deffinitly a 9, thereby one blast could snuffout anyone in an instant. The darkside prides itself in "pumping the volume up to 11" and utterly anniahlating the opponent. Where as the Jedi try to teach discipline, cunning, and resourcefulness. So they don't HAVE to rely on easy streaks and dumb luck..

Spelljammer: I wasn't really talking about lightning, which can be fairly easily rationalized as being inherently "dark" power, so you're missing my point altogether.

Ushgarak: ... okay, whatever. Make yourself happy. Moving on ...

Fishy: That's actually a pretty good rationalization for it. Although it wouldn't work for Star Wars D20 (at least not without house rules), which matters to me since I happen to play that game. But the trouble even there is that choking -- or at least CONTROLLED choking -- could easily be used for good. It could be used to de-escalate a confrontation with minimal violence and absolutely zero killing or even pemanent harm needed. By contrast, a lightsaber can almost NEVER be used in that manner -- it's one of the most inherently lethal weapons in the Star Wars universe. It's ONLY good for killing -- or, at a bare minimum, dismembering -- and NEVER for ending a confrontation without causing death or permanent harm.

(And yes, you could end a confrontation without violence by THREATENING with a lightsaber, but you could as easily do that with the Force itself, so that's meaningless. I'm saying that a lightsaber could not be used ACTIVELY to avoid violence, while choking COULD be.)

Man, I have NO idea why you place Lightning so much better than sabres, SJ, when the films clearly show the opposite to be true.

And yes, you are right about the Sabre, Orestes. Like all proper weapons, it has only one useful purpose, and that is to kill. That Jedi carry them says a lot about their job.

Because lightning requires more power to do...

For apparently less effect. Only one person has ever actually been defeated by Lightning and that was a Padawan.

Sabres are, and always will be, the decsive arm between Force users.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Overlord, you don't know a thing about which you're speaking.

It's called "Sith lightning" for a reason. Duh.

Wow.. That is probably the best argueing skills I have ever seen..
You probably think you are right merely because you said it is called sith lightning.

Originally posted by Fishy
No, good Jedi can not use lightning. Powerful Jedi perhaps

Powerful lightside force uers can (probably), but using lightning is against the Jedi Code. And you wouldn't be a good Jedi if you use it anymore..

There are Jedi and there are Sith. They're both exact opposites of each other. One's good and one's evil. Jedi are good and Sith are evil. Do you agree?

Since we agree that Jedi are "Good", then a powerful Jedi is "Good" also.

So with that said, can you clarify for me what you mean then by saying "Good" Jedi cannot use lightning but powerful Jedi can? Both are good aren't they? But it seems that your implying "Good" powerful Jedi can perhaps use lightning, just not a regular "Good" Jedi? I'm a bit perplexed by your statement as it's comes across as a bit contradictory. And thats beside the fact that your only adding to my "yes" answer in a way by saying powerful Jedi / powerful light-side force users can use lightning.

And as for Jedi not using lightning because it's against the Code is irrelevant, as I have already stated. Didn't you read my conclusive statement on the matter a few posts up regarding the moral issue? Or don't you just get it.

It's against the Law to use a stolen credit card? Yes. Do I have I the ability to use the stolen credit card. Yes. Is it against the Code to use lightning? Yes. Do Jedi have the ability to use lightning, whether it's immoral or not, Yes. Again, morality isn't the question. The ability is. Don't get it twisted.

Depends on how you see good in this post. Good Jedi as Jedi that follow the code, or Good Jedi as in Jedi that are on the lightside.

A powerful Jedi does not have to follow the code and can still be a bad Jedi.

I know thats probably not what you meant when you asked if a Good Jedi can use lightning, but its still true. A good Jedi can not use lightning a Jedi can perhaps.. Although you could doubt if he or she is a Jedi then.

And they might have the ability, assuming you don't have to learn for it. If you have to learn for it then they simply can not do it. Because learning the technique would probably mean drawing on the Dark Side and thus drawing them closer and closer to the Dark Side.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Man, I have NO idea why you place Lightning so much better than sabres, SJ, when the films clearly show the opposite to be true.

And yes, you are right about the Sabre, Orestes. Like all proper weapons, it has only one useful purpose, and that is to kill. That Jedi carry them says a lot about their job.

What you're saying makes half-sense.

I think light-sabers are used not only to kill (offense) but for other purposes as well, like for example, among many other things, defense, like deflecting blaster blots or force lightning or other light-sabers.

To say light-sabers have "only one useful purpose, and that is to kill." is just not fully correct and very limiting.

Originally posted by Orestes
Spelljammer: I wasn't really talking about lightning, which can be fairly easily rationalized as being inherently "dark" power, so you're missing my point altogether.

Ushgarak: ... okay, whatever. Make yourself happy. Moving on ...

Fishy: That's actually a pretty good rationalization for it. Although it wouldn't work for Star Wars D20 (at least not without house rules), which matters to me since I happen to play that game. But the trouble even there is that choking -- or at least CONTROLLED choking -- could easily be used for good. It could be used to de-escalate a confrontation with minimal violence and absolutely zero killing or even pemanent harm needed. By contrast, a lightsaber can almost NEVER be used in that manner -- it's one of the most inherently lethal weapons in the Star Wars universe. It's ONLY good for killing -- or, at a bare minimum, dismembering -- and NEVER for ending a confrontation without causing death or permanent harm.

(And yes, you could end a confrontation without violence by THREATENING with a lightsaber, but you could as easily do that with the Force itself, so that's meaningless. I'm saying that a lightsaber could not be used ACTIVELY to avoid violence, while choking COULD be.)

Choking a aggressive power. It is meant to damage, it's meant to hurt people or kill them. Choke has no other use except for hurting; Force Push can be used various ways, smae with a lightsaber. A lightsaber is a last resort for Jedi after the Ruusan Reform; this was a last minute weapon. And they would not try to kill at all unless forced. A Dark Sider would try to kill or injure someone as well as they can. And also a Lightsaber ca nbe used to intimate and avoid fighting, and it can also be used to remove obstacles.

Their ability to reflect blaster bolts is only a compliment to their use as a deadly weapon! It allows their bearers to close to range and kill. That is their useful purpose. It is what they are designed for. A singular design gives a better purpose and that is theirs.

If you want to concentrate on defence, build a shield. But a sabre is a weapon, amke no mistake about it. If you draw it, it is because you are prepared to kill.

I just picture it as yet another technique without a real meaning. But where does it say that it is against the jedi code to use it anyway?

As a point for it being an evil ability, you can't really picture it as an attack or defending power but as a torturing ability instead wich is unnecessary and evil!

Originally posted by FistOfThe North

It's against the Law to use a stolen credit card? Yes. Do I have I the ability to use the stolen credit card. Yes. Is it against the Code to use lightning? Yes. Do Jedi have the ability to use lightning, whether it's immoral or not, Yes. Again, morality isn't the question. The ability is. Don't get it twisted.
The Jedi follow thier code which is more sacred then the law.

And just as you will be punished by the law too for using a credit card that isn't your's. So too will karma destroy your inner being if you use Force Lightning.

Originally posted by Fishy
Depends on how you see good in this post. Good Jedi as Jedi that follow the code, or Good Jedi as in Jedi that are on the lightside.

A powerful Jedi does not have to follow the code and can still be a bad Jedi.

I know thats probably not what you meant when you asked if a Good Jedi can use lightning, but its still true. A good Jedi can not use lightning a Jedi can perhaps.. Although you could doubt if he or she is a Jedi then.

And they might have the ability, assuming you don't have to learn for it. If you have to learn for it then they simply can not do it. Because learning the technique would probably mean drawing on the Dark Side and thus drawing them closer and closer to the Dark Side.

lol, what?

Look, Fishy, understand this. To be a Jedi of any kind, whether you're a good Jedi, a Jedi Jedi, a Jedi that's on the lightside or Jedi that follows the Code, is to be good. For the plain and simple fact that merely you're a Jedi. That's it. If you have Jedi as your title, you're good, period. Frankly, they're all the same, to me.

And I still think a Good Jedi can use Force lighting because A Good Jedi has the force, the main ingredient needed to harness lightning.

And don't get me wrong, Fishy, I understand what you mean by how it would make a Jedi not "Good" if he were to use lightning because it is a Darkside Force that can only be obtained by becoming a bad Jedi, ergo you cant use force lightning if your a good person therefore a "Good" Jedi cannot use Force lightning. But I say you're wrong. Good Jedi can use lightning because "Good" Jedi of high level may use any Force ability, light or dark, according to their wisdom, since their high experience averts them from slanting toward the Dark.

4 examples of "Good" Jedi, regular and high level, using lightning to their advantage:

1. Yoda in Ep.2, when he deflected Dooku's bolt back directly at him,as an attack.

2. Mace Windu in Ep.3, when he deflected Sidious's lightning back at Sidious. And don't say the deflection was the result of lighting coming into contact with the lightsaber's laser because if that were the case, Dooku's lightning strike against Obi Wan would've been automatically deflected. Mace controlled that s***.

3. Luke's wife, Jedi Mara Jade, and

4 Kyle Katarn from "Jedi Knight" .and "Academy" as well, too.

lol will this ever end?

The Lightsaber a Tool? Right.



The Jedi don't carry the Lightsaber on them as a "Last resort" or to "Open a can of beans". Do the Police carry their gun for a tool? Didn't think so. The Lightsaber is there for usage of dismembering others and/or killing others for a last resort.

Saying that the Jedi don't use Force lightning may be a wee bit out of proportion just because they didn't use it the movies.


Sorgo, no Jedi used Force Lightning in the movies. Only the Sith did! THIS IS RIDICULOUS! HAXXXXXXXXX!

I didn't see a Jedi use Force Pull in the movies. Does this mean they don't use it generally?


Wait, i have only seen Jedi use mind trick. Maybe ONLY JEDI USE IT! *GASP*


There is not a single drop of proof that Jedi do not use Force Lightning.

C'mon now, Sorgo! Force Lightning is an aggressive Force Power! Jeez...

Right, and force push isn't? Or force pull isn't? Or force choke isn't? Hell, if a Jedi violently pushes an opponent into a wall and cracks their head open, i suppose Force push remains nonlethal?



But the Jedi use Lightsabers!


SORGO! OMFG! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!



Can anyone really prove that there is a divine difference between a Lightsaber and Force Lightning?


Lightning can kill people. The Lightsaber can kill people.

Sorgo, lightning is a very torturous force. It tortures people before killing them!

Now i could easily torture someone with a lightsaber. Shoving it up their ass, grading it along their arm and cutting them open....


If you use the force to throw a Lightsaber into a crowd, and you use force lightning into a crowd. Which one is gonna kill more people? THE LIGHTSABER!

You throw lightning into a crowd, sure it is gonna shock a few people, maybe kill two or three, and some residue electricity may pass on to someone else in the crowd.


You throw a Lightsaber, your slashing limbs off, killing people rapidly, and seriously injuring people. You're gonna kill a minimum of ten to fifteen people. Plus, the Lightsaber has to come back to you.


Apparently, the Jedi have the Lightsaber as an essential part of their order and code, but apparently having a numerous array of Force powers that are harmful and an extremely hot and fatal Sword on them makes them somewhat restricted to use something that may not even be fatal on occasion.

What the f*ck?

Does anyone ever think that the Jedi may not use it in the movies to restrict themselves from destroying or frying someone? Or maybe they do not wish to use it because of it's apparent "Torturable nature"?


The difference between knowing how to use it and/or being allowed to use it is bigger than Oprah.

Maybe they know how to use it, but aren't allowed. In a situation where a Jedi may need to use restrictions to win a fight (EX: Kenobi shooting Grievous) if they are not allowed to use it, they may do so. Because any Jedi isn't stupid enough to let themselves die over the Jedi Code.

Or they may be allowed to use it, but just never found it necessary in their fighting tactics.


Who knows.

Originally posted by Spelljammer
The Jedi follow thier code which is more sacred then the law.

And just as you will be punished by the law too for using a credit card that isn't your's. So too will karma destroy your inner being if you use Force Lightning.

Oh boy, another one. Is today, Dumb-Day or am I just being mind-tricked by the Moderator, lol cause I dont get it with some of the posters in here, honstly.

Ok, first off i thought it unskillful of you to initially use the sanctity of the Jedi Code against Law only to use Law as a defensible reason in your next statement. Using backstabber statements like that ARE SPCULATIVE

Originally posted by Spelljammer
The Jedi follow thier code which is more sacred then the law.

And just as you will be punished by the law too for using a credit card that isn't your's. So too will karma destroy your inner being if you use Force Lightning.

Oh boy, another one. Is today Dumb-Day or is the Moderator using a mind trick on me, lol cause i don't get some of the posters in here, honestly.

Ok, 1st off, I thought it unskillful of you to use the sanctity of the Jedi Code against Law only for you to use it as a defensible reason in your next statement, turning your post an 2 incompatible analogy.

Using Backstabber statements like that, not matter how wordy or pompous, are not only speculative but also make you look incredulous as well.

I dunno. Did i make the question too complicated? Even though I have my factual answer, the question only ask for a yes or no answer. Thats it. lol

Well duh, that's all you've been saying the entire thread..

"That's subjective"
"It's all relative"
It's all darkside bullshit. Which is precisely why you feel the need to justify Force Lightning in the first place. I'm sure Palpatine thought it was all relative too when he convinced the universe to give up everything they knew about freedom and morality and bow down to the empire.. i'd say to learn to accept what is, and who you are, but then if you did, you wouldn't be darkside. The darkside has to lie, cheat, and find ways to make one second guess the will of The Force. If they didn't, they wouldn't be darkside, and if they weren't darkside, they wouldn't have to do it. Life can be answered so simplisticaly. Only those who have blocked themselves from hearing The Force think in complexity..

Originally posted by Sorgo
The Lightsaber a Tool? Right.

I didn't see a Jedi use Force Pull in the movies. Does this mean they don't use it generally?


Actually, Sorgo, the Force pull technique is used by the Jedi all over all 6 of the Star Wars films.

Well, in my opinion it is at least. It also depends on what you consider Force pull, even though the word itself makes it simply obvious to what it is and actually does.

When Jedi summon their lightsabers from an unreachable distance, would you consider that Force pull?

And Sorge, not trying to bust your chops or no one else's for that matter as I am in agreement with you even if your path towards the idea is at a different area than mine but we're still headed in the same direction towards the same point.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Actually, Sorgo, the Force pull technique is used by the Jedi all over all 6 of the Star Wars films.

Well, in my opinion it is at least. It also depends on what you consider Force pull, even though the word itself makes it simply obvious to what it is and actually does.

When Jedi summon their lightsabers from an unreachable distance, would you consider that Force pull?

And Sorge, not trying to bust your chops or no one else's for that matter as I am in agreement with you even if your path towards the idea is at a different area than mine but we're still headed in the same direction towards the same point.


Okay, they use force pull. That's only one of my points that has been shot down, though.

Originally posted by Spelljammer

I'm sure Palpatine thought it was all relative too when he convinced the universe

Only those who have blocked themselves from hearing think in complexity..

lol omg, dude what?

ROTLMfAO

On your second statement...You got that right, lol but change complexity into confusion. It'd be more of a fitting word.

Besides, out of all the psychokinetics, which ones do we asscosiate with evil people?

Empathy:
Commonly used by Jedi to change the feelings of individuals. Anywhere from neutral to good. Ohnoes! This can be used evily to distort feelings into anger, resentment, and other negative emotions. Commonly used by evil magicians such as BLACKMAGES from final fantasy when they use confusion and rage.

Telepathy:
Telepathy is a pretty neutral power and used mostly to deliever and receive information.

Psychometabolism:
The art of empowering one's body through the mind. This is mostly used for self-defence as shown through martial artists. Ofcourse it can be abused but then again, so can anything. The point is sense it is innard the power, the only way it can be evil, is if the self is evil and uses it wrongly.

Metacreativity:
Here we go. The "evocation". When you think lightning bolts and fireballs, do you think about a calm, collected person? I seriously doubt it. You either think teenage punk who found a spellbook, or crazy old wizard. This is precisely proof why this is the darkside of The Force. Whatever excuse you could makeup to use metacreativity is poor and vain, for that matter why didn't you just use psychometabolism? That way you empower YOURSELF, rather then manipulate what is around you. It's alot harder to have ill intentions when the only one being influenced by The Force is you.. not to meation, if we traditionaly see metacreativity as wrong and psychometabolism as right, why bother to change the view? What could it solve? All it does it bring arguments. Which makes you come across as an atognostic fool.. IE: darkside..

Originally posted by Spelljammer
Besides, out of all the psychokinetics, which ones do we asscosiate with evil people?

Empathy:
Commonly used by Jedi to change the feelings of individuals. Anywhere from neutral to good. Ohnoes! This can be used evily to distort feelings into anger, resentment, and other negative emotions. Commonly used by evil magicians such as BLACKMAGES from final fantasy when they use confusion and rage.

Telepathy:
Telepathy is a pretty neutral power and used mostly to deliever and receive information.

Psychometabolism:
The art of empowering one's body through the mind. This is mostly used for self-defence as shown through martial artists. Ofcourse it can be abused but then again, so can anything. The point is sense it is innard the power, the only way it can be evil, is if the self is evil and uses it wrongly.

Metacreativity:
Here we go. The "evocation". When you think lightning bolts and fireballs, do you think about a calm, collected person? I seriously doubt it. You either think teenage punk who found a spellbook, or crazy old wizard. This is precisely proof why this is the darkside of The Force. Whatever excuse you could makeup to use metacreativity is poor and vain, for that matter why didn't you just use psychometabolism? That way you empower YOURSELF, rather then manipulate what is around you. It's alot harder to have ill intentions when the only one being influenced by The Force is you.. not to meation, if we traditionaly see metacreativity as wrong and psychometabolism as right, why bother to change the view? What could it solve? All it does it bring arguments. Which makes you come across as an atognostic fool.. IE: darkside..




You're going far too deep. It Star Wars, buddy. Any of the previous things you mentioned could have been switched around to fit within the Star Wars Universe. You cannot use that logic.

Originally posted by Spelljammer
Besides, out of all the psychokinetics, which ones do we asscosiate with evil people?

Empathy:
Commonly used by Jedi to change the feelings of individuals. Anywhere from neutral to good. Ohnoes! This can be used evily to distort feelings into anger, resentment, and other negative emotions. Commonly used by evil magicians such as BLACKMAGES from final fantasy when they use confusion and rage.

Telepathy:
Telepathy is a pretty neutral power and used mostly to deliever and receive information.

Psychometabolism:
The art of empowering one's body through the mind. This is mostly used for self-defence as shown through martial artists. Ofcourse it can be abused but then again, so can anything. The point is sense it is innard the power, the only way it can be evil, is if the self is evil and uses it wrongly.

Metacreativity:
Here we go. The "evocation". When you think lightning bolts and fireballs, do you think about a calm, collected person? I seriously doubt it. You either think teenage punk who found a spellbook, or crazy old wizard. This is precisely proof why this is the darkside of The Force. Whatever excuse you could makeup to use metacreativity is poor and vain, for that matter why didn't you just use psychometabolism? That way you empower YOURSELF, rather then manipulate what is around you. It's alot harder to have ill intentions when the only one being influenced by The Force is you.. not to meation, if we traditionaly see metacreativity as wrong and psychometabolism as right, why bother to change the view? What could it solve? All it does it bring arguments. Which makes you come across as an atognostic fool.. IE: darkside..

Umm...Let's see...

What should I get.

I'll have a small version of whatever, in God's name, you wrote, in English, hold the Physio-McTabolism and the BS.

And, hmm....a side order of what your point is.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Sorgo
The Lightsaber a Tool? Right.



The Jedi don't carry the Lightsaber on them as a "Last resort" or to "Open a can of beans". Do the Police carry their gun for a tool? Didn't think so. The Lightsaber is there for usage of dismembering others and/or killing others for a last resort.

Saying that the Jedi don't use Force lightning may be a wee bit out of proportion just because they didn't use it the movies.


Sorgo, no Jedi used Force Lightning in the movies. Only the Sith did! THIS IS RIDICULOUS! HAXXXXXXXXX!

I didn't see a Jedi use Force Pull in the movies. Does this mean they don't use it generally?


Wait, i have only seen Jedi use mind trick. Maybe ONLY JEDI USE IT! *GASP*


There is not a single drop of proof that Jedi do not use Force Lightning.

C'mon now, Sorgo! Force Lightning is an aggressive Force Power! Jeez...

Right, and force push isn't? Or force pull isn't? Or force choke isn't? Hell, if a Jedi violently pushes an opponent into a wall and cracks their head open, i suppose Force push remains nonlethal?



But the Jedi use Lightsabers!


SORGO! OMFG! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE!



Can anyone really prove that there is a divine difference between a Lightsaber and Force Lightning?


Lightning can kill people. The Lightsaber can kill people.

Sorgo, lightning is a very torturous force. It tortures people before killing them!

Now i could easily torture someone with a lightsaber. Shoving it up their ass, grading it along their arm and cutting them open....


If you use the force to throw a Lightsaber into a crowd, and you use force lightning into a crowd. Which one is gonna kill more people? THE LIGHTSABER!

You throw lightning into a crowd, sure it is gonna shock a few people, maybe kill two or three, and some residue electricity may pass on to someone else in the crowd.


You throw a Lightsaber, your slashing limbs off, killing people rapidly, and seriously injuring people. You're gonna kill a minimum of ten to fifteen people. Plus, the Lightsaber has to come back to you.


Apparently, the Jedi have the Lightsaber as an essential part of their order and code, but apparently having a numerous array of Force powers that are harmful and an extremely hot and fatal Sword on them makes them somewhat restricted to use something that may not even be fatal on occasion.

What the f*ck?

Does anyone ever think that the Jedi may not use it in the movies to restrict themselves from destroying or frying someone? Or maybe they do not wish to use it because of it's apparent "Torturable nature"?


The difference between knowing how to use it and/or being allowed to use it is bigger than Oprah.

Maybe they know how to use it, but aren't allowed. In a situation where a Jedi may need to use restrictions to win a fight (EX: Kenobi shooting Grievous) if they are not allowed to use it, they may do so. Because any Jedi isn't stupid enough to let themselves die over the Jedi Code.

Or they may be allowed to use it, but just never found it necessary in their fighting tactics.


Who knows.

First thing: Everything is a tool. No matter what it is, it's a tool. The lightsaber isused as a tool. That's that.

Saying that lightning is out of proportion is just stupid. We have seen time and time again that Lightning manifest'semotions, which is against the Jedi Code. Emotion is meant to be controlled, and not let loose.

Yes, we have proof they didn't. We have never seen a true Jedi use force lightning. Why? Becuase as I said before, it requires emotion to use it. Without letting your emotion go, you won't have a force lighting happening.

Force Push is not only agressive. Neither is Pull. Choke is agressive also, and has never been used by a Jedi up to date. If a Jedi violently pushes a person against the wall and cracks their head's open, it becomes a aggressive power. But the difference is from lightning and push is Push is not only a offensive power; it can be usedf for peaceful measures, unlike force lgihtning, which is a offensive power by nature and cannot be sued without a aggressive attack.
Yes the Jedi use Lightsabers. They use them sparringly, and only as a very very last resort.

Force Lightning is aggressive only; a lgihtsabe rcan be used for mundane tasks and defensively. Saying they are the same is like calling Shirey Temple and a porn star the same.

You don't get it. Lightning can ONLY be used to torture. A lightsaber does not have to be used as a torture device. Using that logic, a sheep is as bad as a lightsaber since I can torture people with it.

http://www.icelandicsheep.com/SheepMasterListPics/STS%20501E.jpg
Hard to see the darkside is..
But rest assure it's bahhhd.

Originally posted by ResubianNushi


You don't get it. Lightning can ONLY be used to torture.

A lightsaber does not have to be used as a torture device. Using that logic, a sheep is as bad as a lightsaber since I can torture people with it.

I think you don't get it.

Lightning can "ONLY" be used to torture, you say?
Can lightning be used to kill as well?
Can it be used to physically maim, maul, and/or disable temporarily, as Dooku did to Anakin in Ep.2, or permanently as it did Sidious, allegedly?

answer those questions. maybe then you'll "get it", ResubianNushi

Originally posted by Spelljammer
http://www.icelandicsheep.com/SheepMasterListPics/STS%20501E.jpg
Hard to see the darkside is..
But rest assure it's bahhhd.

Ok, you're officially wierd. lol

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
I think you don't get it.

Lightning can "ONLY" be used to torture, you say?
Can lightning be used to kill as well?
Can it be used to physically maim, maul, and/or disable temporarily, as Dooku did to Anakin in Ep.2, or permanently as it did Sidious, allegedly?

answer those questions. maybe then you'll "get it", ResubianNushi

OOh. Typo. I'm meant that lgihtsaber don't only have to be used for torture.

Originally posted by ResubianNushi
First thing: Everything is a tool. No matter what it is, it's a tool. The lightsaber isused as a tool. That's that.

Saying that lightning is out of proportion is just stupid. We have seen time and time again that Lightning manifest'semotions, which is against the Jedi Code. Emotion is meant to be controlled, and not let loose.

Yes, we have proof they didn't. We have never seen a true Jedi use force lightning. Why? Becuase as I said before, it requires emotion to use it. Without letting your emotion go, you won't have a force lighting happening.

Force Push is not only agressive. Neither is Pull. Choke is agressive also, and has never been used by a Jedi up to date. If a Jedi violently pushes a person against the wall and cracks their head's open, it becomes a aggressive power. But the difference is from lightning and push is Push is not only a offensive power; it can be usedf for peaceful measures, unlike force lgihtning, which is a offensive power by nature and cannot be sued without a aggressive attack.
Yes the Jedi use Lightsabers. They use them sparringly, and only as a very very last resort.

Force Lightning is aggressive only; a lgihtsabe rcan be used for mundane tasks and defensively. Saying they are the same is like calling Shirey Temple and a porn star the same.

You don't get it. Lightning can ONLY be used to torture. A lightsaber does not have to be used as a torture device. Using that logic, a sheep is as bad as a lightsaber since I can torture people with it.




Yes, we have proof they didn't. We have never seen a true Jedi use force lightning. Why? Becuase as I said before, it requires emotion to use it. Without letting your emotion go, you won't have a force lighting happening.



Mace Windu's Lightsaber form requires you to pit not only emotions into it, but darkened feelings. I am guessing Mace isn't a "True Jedi" then?

Alot of things the Jedi use require some strain of Emotion. They aren't "emotionless" nor close to having virtually no emotion at all. And like i said before, maybe they know it but are not allowed to use it. I did not slap down and confirm that they could use it.


You don't get it. Lightning can ONLY be used to torture. A lightsaber does not have to be used as a torture device. Using that logic, a sheep is as bad as a lightsaber since I can torture people with it.


Lightning is only used in torture? F*ck man, prove it!

Sidious wasn't trying to torture Mace on Episode III, he was trying to KILL him. Same with ROTJ. Sure, it lasted a bit, but that doesn't mean he was trying to torture him. He wanted the Lightning to "KILL" him.

Like i said before, using a Lightsaber does require some strain of emotion. Christ, you're killing people with it. You would HAVE to feel something. And the fact that a Lightsaber is more dangerous than Lightning still stands. Lightning is a KILLING TOOL. It can be used for torture, but it is also mean't to KILL.

Saying that Lightning is stricly used for torture is just crap served on a golden platter.

This topic is based on a matter of opinion. There's no way everyone here will agree.

Originally posted by Se7in
This topic is based on a matter of opinion. There's no way everyone here will agree.



NEWS FLASH


Captain Obvious strikes again: Fourty dead.

Did you even read what I wrote? For God's sake, you quoted it. Did you READ it??

Here's an important snippet that I believe you must have missed:



Additionally, I noted the following:



Earlier, I made this observation:



Your response deals with exactly none of this. All you're doing is repeating the (erroneous) claim that choking could only be used to hurt. In reality, it could easily be used to:



Something that, ONCE AGAIN, emphatically cannot be said of lightsabers. While, at the same time, a push or a pull:

Originally posted by Se7in
This topic is based on a matter of opinion. There's no way everyone here will agree.

That can't be true because any perceived inconsistencies exist only in my head. And if it's all perfectly consistent and clear, there's no need for conflicting opinions.

Damn, i wish i could be a shithead subliminally, but i am a blunt person.

Sure, good guys can use force lightning, it's just not recommended for friend making

Originally posted by Julie
Sure, good guys can use force lightning, it's just not recommended for friend making

Women...

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Women...


Fools...

haha

Jedi don't really use Force push/pull with the intention of breaking people's bones/skulls or ending their lives with a shove off of a building.

All that matters, when it comes down to it, is if they use their emotions or not. If they don't use their emotions to power their Force abilities, then they're Light Side. If they use their emotions to power their abilities, they're Dark Side.

Force Lightning is harnessed, as I've read, through concentrating hatred/anger/fear/jealousy/whatever. Obviously, a Jedi can't concentrate those, or he isn't a Jedi.

Originally posted by Bespin Bart
Jedi don't really use Force push/pull with the intention of breaking people's bones/skulls or ending their lives with a shove off of a building.

All that matters, when it comes down to it, is if they use their emotions or not. If they don't use their emotions to power their Force abilities, then they're Light Side. If they use their emotions to power their abilities, they're Dark Side.

Force Lightning is harnessed, as I've read, through concentrating hatred/anger/fear/jealousy/whatever. Obviously, a Jedi can't concentrate those, or he isn't a Jedi.


*Thwaps Bart*


Sorry, i just had to. No reason, really....

Even jedi have flashes of anger...it makes them sentient beings

Originally posted by Sorgo
Fools...
n00b

There's a chain or progress to determine morality of acts. Such as lightsabers, lightning, etc.

Intention or Motivation - Act - Consequence.

For an act to be morally permissable, the intent AND the act must be morally right (read: there can't be any moral ambiguity to it, it's either right -like healing someone- or wrong - like stealing, killing etc.-)

If you think that stealing can potentially be right (then you would be a subjectivist) then you could argue semantics and situations all day and never come to a moral standard with which to draw upon for judgment.

If you think stealing is always wrong (even when it seems prudent, life-threateningly neccessary, etc.) then you are a moral objectivist. And this formula will help you with any situations.

As for can Jedi do it, I may have missed someone's point, but I don't see any reason to support whether they can or cannot. But obviously the jedi didn't use it, and there is more likely than not a reason for it.

Discussions like this is why I have begun to believe the Jedi are weak. They empathize far too greatly. I'm not saying they should be slaughtered people left and right, but in battle they hold too much in themselves. In battle, all should be put aside from killing your opponent. They complicate battle with mercy, emotion, and empathy. There should be none of this in a fight, duel or otherwise. Odan-Urr, Kreia, and to some points Katarn had the best ideals.

But Jedi fight for a higher cause- they can trust and have associations and work in Balance. What you call weakness is also great strength, that the Dark Side can never overcome.

Definately. There are two kinds of people- those who fight for higher causes and those who seek tangible, worldly power. They are represented in the series by the Jedi and the Sith.

The other side can't see the strength nor the reason of their opponent. This is true for real life, which is why there is no one set standard for beliefs that people adhere to.

Originally posted by Se7in
Discussions like this is why I have begun to believe the Jedi are weak. They empathize far too greatly. I'm not saying they should be slaughtered people left and right, but in battle they hold too much in themselves. In battle, all should be put aside from killing your opponent. They complicate battle with mercy, emotion, and empathy. There should be none of this in a fight, duel or otherwise. Odan-Urr, Kreia, and to some points Katarn had the best ideals.

Then what would seperate them from the Sith? They'd become warriors focused on achieving their goals regardless of anything else. They'd be vigilantes. They'd be murderers. They'd cease to be guardians of peace and justice. . . they'd become enforcers.

I'm not surey they use lightsabers, except that it's some macho thing to do and GL thought it'd look cool. Seriously, they would better serve the peace if they were unarmed martial artist masters and learned how to deflect blaster bolts with a staff or with their hands. Lightsabers complicate the morality of the order anyways.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
I'm not surey they use lightsabers, except that it's some macho thing to do and GL thought it'd look cool. Seriously, they would better serve the peace if they were unarmed martial artist masters and learned how to deflect blaster bolts with a staff or with their hands. Lightsabers complicate the morality of the order anyways.

Lightsabers are used as a defensive weapon, like it or not without some kind of defense the Jedi are screwed.

Their well-being isn't the paramount goal, though. It's peace, balance, and harmony. By using deadly, destructive weapons they don't achieve harmony. They'd be better off honing nondeadly restraining powers. Or learning how to disarm enemies and even strip the Force from dark jedi and Sith. Fighting them on equal terms apparently solves nothing, and the Sith excel at saber combat and aggressive force powers.

Well tell me then honestly, how can they strip the force of the Dark Jedi and the Sith? They can't, and if they could and would do it a few times the Sith would find ways to block it. Simple as that.

Now then how are they going to defend themselves? Using the force alone, unless you are Yoda you don't stand a chance in hell of winning then. An average Sith could still kill a good Jedi.

Hand to hand fighting, against somebody with a lightsaber? No way in hell you are going to win.

Disarming? Well isn't that what they are supposed to do with the lightsaber, besides it has a few other functions besides killing as well. Few as they may be they are still there. Nothing would work as well as a weapon like that.

No, Deus, that's not the mood of what Star Wars are about. They are like noble knights, Paladins, or white-hat Wild West Marshalls, living in a Galaxy where the good has to be fought for- and they are the ones who do it.

Don't confuse SW philsophy with real world philosophy. GL sets the rules here.

Jedi fight and kill if they have to, and that does not contradict their philosophies.

You are thinking too practically. The Jedi Order are not shock troops or police; they are a religious order. Violence as a means to an end is a fault, not a strength. Now...


Well tell me then honestly, how can they strip the force of the Dark Jedi and the Sith? They can't, and if they could and would do it a few times the Sith would find ways to block it. Simple as that.

Ancient Jedi showed the ability to do this to offenders. Since the jedi already believe in capture, and this ability IS possible (and no, it was not blocked in the series thus far, so why should we assume it can be blocked?) it would make sense to strip potential dangers of the Force to -preserve- the balance.


Now then how are they going to defend themselves? Using the force alone, unless you are Yoda you don't stand a chance in hell of winning then. An average Sith could still kill a good Jedi.

The better question would be, "How can they defend OTHERS with a lightsaber?" The Jedi are better off thinking less of their battle readiness and more of how they can use the Force for good and can defend others, to uphold the jedi ideal. Winning a fight can still lose a war, you know.


Hand to hand fighting, against somebody with a lightsaber? No way in hell you are going to win.

Directly? Not likely. Battle is a last resort. And I did recommend staves. Staves are practical and less deadly than an energy blade that cuts through doors.


Disarming? Well isn't that what they are supposed to do with the lightsaber, besides it has a few other functions besides killing as well. Few as they may be they are still there. Nothing would work as well as a weapon like that.

What instances are there of jedi disarming opponents? Well, if the skill level is low enough, a few. But they sure as hell don't abide by it all the time. Mace Windu in particular killed plenty in Shatterpoint, as did Yoda when it came to -skewering- those Clone troopers. Even the head of the Order practices death when he sees fit. This isn't a solid ideology. It's flawed.

Perhaps it doesn't, Ush. But it still shows flaws in the system. A system which was eliminated.

And if anything, the OT was all about not killing people if you didn't have to. The PT became a saberfest with Yoda skewering clone troopers and leading armies. Really took a lot out of the series for me anyways.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Definately. There are two kinds of people- those who fight for higher causes and those who seek tangible, worldly power. They are represented in the series by the Jedi and the Sith.

The other side can't see the strength nor the reason of their opponent. This is true for real life, which is why there is no one set standard for beliefs that people adhere to.

Curiously, in KOTOR 2, Kreia fights for a higher cause (the death of the Force) and yet is represented as dark ...

Edit: But I wanted to say also, Deus, that I think you and I see some of the same flaws. That the jedi meet violence with violence is very, very flawed indeed, as violence can never be brought to an end by attempting to counter it with more violence. Violence is, in truth, a tool of those who would spread the same.

And oddly enough, the movies and the EU both support this contention. Over thousands of years, what changes? Nothing. It's a neverending cycle of sith vs. jedi violence, with whole worlds being the victims.

The system would simply be re-instated. Just because the Jedi were defeated does not mean they were wrong. And what flaw? The Jedi HAVE to fight. The whole point is that someone has to.

I suppose you can look at it like that, yeah. Fighting when one has to is easily understandable. But paladins and white knights are supposed to uphold their ideals above all else. They're actually bound by their code, principles, and pride. They are virtually inflexible. Ideally, they would be pacifist. Since idealism is a dead line of thought, the next best thing would be what? Rigid code by which to live, right?

Ancient Jedi showed the ability to do this to offenders. Since the jedi already believe in capture, and this ability IS possible (and no, it was not blocked in the series thus far, so why should we assume it can be blocked?) it would make sense to strip potential dangers of the Force to -preserve- the balance.

Why? Because it would the ultimate technique and it would defeat everybody, if it could really do what you would claim then the Jedi would have learned it into perfection its the only logical thing to do.

The better question would be, "How can they defend OTHERS with a lightsaber?" The Jedi are better off thinking less of their battle readiness and more of how they can use the Force for good and can defend others, to uphold the jedi ideal. Winning a fight can still lose a war, you know.

Idealistic bullshit. There is no way the Jedi can stand up against a threat like the Sith without weapons. A lightsaber is the perfect weapon. Its quick its precise and it allows you to use none deadly attacks sometimes. A gun would never allow you to do that. Without weapons the Jedi would be dead.

Hand to hand fighting, against somebody with a lightsaber? No way in hell you are going to win.

They also identify you, are harder to use in certain area's, are harder to take with you and weigh more... Lightsaber is a better weapon, and you will less likely have to use it because you can hide it. Coming in somewhere with a weapon and you are going to fight faster.

Disarming? Well isn't that what they are supposed to do with the lightsaber, besides it has a few other functions besides killing as well. Few as they may be they are still there. Nothing would work as well as a weapon like that.


Dooku disarmed Obi Wan and Anakin twice. okay he was a Sith but he wanted them to live showing that it can be done. Mace disarmed Sidious then decided he wanted to kill him. Anakin disarmed Dooku then killed him but still it shows that it can be done. Its what Jedi are supposed to do.

Okay it wasn't done against the clones but the clones can't be left alive. Seriously you know this.

And like USH said, they are more like Crusaders then monks.

Furthermore, there's a difference between fighting and defending. The lightsaber, even more than Force lightning, is a tool only good for spreading death and destruction. What possible rationalization could support jedi wielding it?

The time spent gaining so much skill in its use could instead be spent gaining more knowledge of the Force itself -- its non-violent and/or defensive applications. Or even learning the use of stunning, non-lethal weaponry. But the lightsaber ... the lightsaber is the ultimate expression of uncompromising violence. It has no stun setting. It's like a disruptor for swordfighters. It has no place in the hands of people whose function is to bring peace.

Originally posted by Orestes
Furthermore, there's a difference between fighting and defending. The lightsaber, even more than Force lightning, is a tool only good for spreading death and destruction. What possible rationalization could support jedi wielding it?

The time spent gaining so much skill in its use could instead be spent gaining more knowledge of the Force itself -- its non-violent and/or defensive applications. Or even learning the use of stunning, non-lethal weaponry. But the lightsaber ... the lightsaber is the ultimate expression of uncompromising violence. It has no stun setting. It's like a disruptor for swordfighters. It has no place in the hands of people whose function is to bring peace.

Agreed. This is my point, but since I believe in a bit of Idealistic bullshit, I'll just sit back and leave it at this.

"Not more powerful, the Dark side. Only faster." Wasn't it something like that that Yoda said? Curious that the best defense of the lightsaber puts it firmly in the "only faster" category.

The best defence period is not getting hit.

Its impossible..

Look if the Jedi were more powerful then the Sith, if the Jedi could block Sith attacks. If the Jedi were really gods then yes what you say could happen. But even then the casualty's were enormous. Fact is however that they need weapons to defend themselves and others.

In an Ideal world what you would want them to do would be true, but the Jedi don't live in that world. They need weapons. Everybody fighting for something needs weapons, especially when fighting Sith.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
I suppose you can look at it like that, yeah. Fighting when one has to is easily understandable. But paladins and white knights are supposed to uphold their ideals above all else. They're actually bound by their code, principles, and pride. They are virtually inflexible. Ideally, they would be pacifist. Since idealism is a dead line of thought, the next best thing would be what? Rigid code by which to live, right?

It would not be remotely ideal for Jedi to be pacifist. They couldn't defend the Republic if they were.

You are making a big mistake about the direction the Jedi come from.

I know exactly where they come from. They come from the macho stance that you can kill violence if you just hit back with enough violence. It's the reason the jedi vs. sith thing never ends -- a mirror reflection of our own real world, wherein people think that it's better to fight and fight and fight than try the harder ... less "fast" ... but more powerful ... solution of peace. The funny thing is, Yoda said it himself, but he didn't quite follow his own reasoning to its final conclusion.

Edit: And don't get me wrong -- I like plenty of violent fictional characters. They can be fun and interesting, no question. But their way can never ... EVER ... bring peace.

Originally posted by Orestes
I know exactly where they come from. They come from the macho stance that you can kill violence if you just hit back with enough violence. It's the reason the jedi vs. sith thing never ends -- a mirror reflection of our own real world, wherein people thinking that it's better to fight and fight and fight than try the harder ... less "fast" ... but more powerful ... solution of peace. The funny thing is, Yoda said it himself, but he didn't quite follow his own reasoning to its final conclusion.

Edit: And don't get me wrong -- I like plenty of violent fictional characters. They can be fun and interesting, no question. But their way can never ... EVER ... bring peace.

How could they use peace then? Explain.

Could they lay silent on the road while Sith tanks go over them? Well yeah they could but what would it do?

Could the most powerful avoid the attacks of the most powerful of Sith and trying to talk them into peace? No way, maybe a few sentences but then they are toast

Could they perhaps use diplomacy? I'm sure they could try, but unless they say you get the universe and we commit suicide I don't think they are going to agree on anything.

Fact is the Jedi would have been destroyed if they were paficist, there is no way they can keep peace in the way you want them too. People who tried that only succeeded for a small period of time until even they had to create an army of a police force or whatever. Peace is an illusion and a peaceful solution for a thousand years is hilarious. It will never happen.

Edit: Wrong it did bring peace, and how. For a thousand years no Sith challenged the Republic. Thats a peace that lasted for a thousand years. For a thousand years the Republic had no need for any real army. Because there weren't any real threats. Border conflicts and shit like that sure, but nothing really important and those things that happened well true peace can not be acquired as long as people are still alive.

That thousands of years of peace was the Sith taking a hands off approaching so they could concentrate on the motherlode of all revenge. It works.

Err, yes, Orestes, I am afraid that in Star Wars terms, they DO bring peace.

Meanwhile- after their greatest effort... the Sith are destroyed, but the Jedi endure. All the better for the Galaxy, and brought about by force of arms.

It's not macho- it's a stance they have taken as a result of enlightenment.

And it took a thousand years for the Republic to decay enough after the Sith's total defeat. They would have done it in ten years if they could. That thousand years was a testament to the success of the Jedi.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
That thousands of years of peace was the Sith taking a hands off approaching so they could concentrate on the motherlode of all revenge. It works.

It works, but it was still caused by the Jedi's use of violence. A violence that no Sith could survive... You may think Palpatine was bad but another 1000 years of war would have been worse. The Jedi's offensive ways saved the Galaxy a lot of suffering.

Ever since RotS I've regarded the Jedi belief system as flawed. It leaves open gaps in important situations and is often self-contradictory.

A Jedi is supposed to be emotionless. If that's the ideal for a Jedi, they lose the essence of what makes a sentient being. If the ideal Jedi is emotionless, 'droids would be the height of Jedi discipline.

The truth is, one cannot uphold a moral code without some sort of emotion. Emotion is what decides morality: you are pleased when you perform an act you deem "moral" and displeased or guilty when you perform an act you deem "immoral."

Even overlooking the flaws in the Code, the Jedi themselves do not strive to be emotionless. What about Obi-wan's call of "I loved you!" to Anakin? Even Yoda, the greatest of the Jedi Order, shows sadness and disappointment, such as Luke's failure in the tree on Dagobah.

As for the morality of certain Force abilities, that's just a product of flawed Jedi thinking. The Force is a tool. Its actual uses are determined by what it is; its practical uses are determined by the user.

No matter the user, the Force retains its double-form of Yin and Yang. Just as Yin complements Yang, the Light Side complements the Dark Side. Neither can exist without the other. There is not an absolute system of Good and Evil; the only true difference is in the span of abilities/attributes associated with each one.

So Force powers like Grip and Lightning are pushed into the Dark Side, because they use emotion. Apparently, Healing requires no empathy for the "patient" and is therefore a Light Side power.

But how do we know those who use the Dark Side aren't able to tap into the Light Side? In fact, have there been any purely Light powers in the movies, things we've seen the Jedi do that the Sith cannot? I sure can't remember any.

Therefore, like Palpitine said, the Dark Side is simply the other half of the Force, and a true master must know both sides. The Jedi are restricting themselves.

So in answer to the original question, yes, a "good" Jedi COULD use Lightning, but they aren't going to because of their beliefs.

Actually, the Sith's perchant for violence wiped them out at Ruusan, not the Jedi's amazing battle skills.

The Jedi are not meant to be emotionless- they are simply meant to exert control over their emotions.

Remember, the 'Code' you may have heard is a strange EU invention.

I am afraid GL does not agree with you one whit, GK- and simple Yin Yang balance is not a factor in Star Wars.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Actually, the Sith's perchant for violence wiped them out at Ruusan, not the Jedi's amazing battle skills.

If the Jedi would not have answered with violence then there would have no battle of Ruusan just a battle of Coruscant which would basicaly mean one farmer standing up against all the Sith army's, while the Jedi sit by asking the Sith to stop. Fighting is sometimes necessary.

I agree, fighting is neccessary. But the exact opposite of the Sith would be a pacifist with no earthly concerns, since the Sith themselves are totally concerned with earthly gain.

In any case, the jedi are obviously not the exact polar opposite of the Sith, even if they oppose them.

Well, agreed- was there any reason they should have been the polar opposite?

It's more fitting to me personally. I can't really relate it any better than that. Fire directly opposes ice, light to dark, etc.

Jedi and Sith are more flip sides of the same coin than eternal opposites in some degrees.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
I agree, fighting is neccessary. But the exact opposite of the Sith would be a pacifist with no earthly concerns, since the Sith themselves are totally concerned with earthly gain.

In any case, the jedi are obviously not the exact polar opposite of the Sith, even if they oppose them.
They can't be polar oppisites, as sentinent beings, will find some way to relate as we will find ways to differ.

The only thing that is polar is The Force, and this is how we differ in what to do with it, and which polarity to draw energy from..

I personally see them as a brilliant illustration of the flaw in the belief that violence can end violence for good. It never does. Sure, they win battles, but they never win the war because it CAN'T be won that way. Ghandi tried to show us this, King tried to show us this ... hell, we still haven't learned, have we?

But there they are, the two opposing forces -- thesis and counter-thesis -- like Deus said, flip sides of the same coin. A very destructive coin.

And yes, there are ways to respond to violence without countering it with equal violence. I even gave examples. The jedi simply choose the faster way. The easier way. More like their sith counterparts than they care to admit, they are.

Originally posted by Spelljammer
The only thing that is polar is The Force, and this is how we differ in what to do with it, and which polarity to draw energy from..

But the Force isn't polar. The Dark Side and the Light Side cannot be at opposite ends of an absolute spectrum, or else Luke could not have been able to use the Grip and remain a Jedi, as the Grip has been clearly labeled as a Dark Side power.

If it weren't for the Sith themselves referring to "The Dark Side" of the Force, I would have to say that the two Sides were an arbitrary belief set upon a whole by the Jedi.

GL's rules reign supreme- the Jedi are defending in the best way else they wouldn't do it.

Sorry, but you are applying values and ideas that are not relevant.

That's silly. That'd be like walking into a philosophy class and saying, "Aristotle reigns supreme. What he said cannot be questioned!"

To the extent that we're discussing this from a philosophical perspective, Lucas's ideas and conclusions sure as hell CAN be called into question! And should be, too.

Furthermore, who said the jedi got it all right anyway? For all anyone can say, maybe that's the big secret underneath it all: the jedi were wrong, too.

That's what I've been saying, Orestes. I think the Jedi don't have a clear view of the Force, and as a result they've restricted their abilities.

I rather agree with Orestes on that. If we're looking at SW philosophy from an outside view here we should be able to put forth our own ideas. While it's presumptuous for anyone to say this or that is Gl's view without expressed proof (which I wouldn't doubt Ush has) we are still entitled to debate this line of thought. That's the purpose of the forum. Or... if that is too much to ask, then this should be moved to the philosophy forum and debated there.

This has gotten patheic...

As GL has stated in the movies no "true" Jedi would ever use powers of the Dark Side for any reason. Within the SW universe there is good and there is evil and the only neurality going on is with non-force sensitives who cannot be influenced by the Light or Dark sides but by their own moral choices. Everyone has a choice over their actions and Jedi are no exception they are simply more exposeded to the more base emotions such as greed, lust, hate, and anger that is why the Jedi stress the need for control.

Ha listen me...I sound like a philospher...

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
n00b



Why? Because you have two extra months? Oops!


How about this? I am older than you, so your a n00b in real life, B!TCHERZ!

Originally posted by Sorgo
Why? Because you have two extra months? Oops!


How about this? I am older than you, so your a n00b in real life, B!TCHERZ!

No. Because "I sense a great deal of confusion in you" everytime you post something.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
No. Because "I sense a great deal of confusion in you" everytime you post something.



C'mon now. You could have done better than that, no matter how old you are.

Originally posted by Sorgo
C'mon now. You could have done better than that, no matter how old you are.

oh, were you taking me serious all this time...? wow..um

With that, if I angered you, I apoligize.

My intent was merely jest, and not to upset you.