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who wins

Dooku, most likely. I hold Kavar in high esteem, but I doubt he can defeat a Makashi master and Sith Lord of 'vast power'.

Considering that Kavar was the leader of the Guardians in time of war, I would consider Kavar to be the victor.

...so?
General in war does not make him the victor. There is more to say about dooku than there is to say about Kavar.

Coleman Trebor was a Council member and guide to Jedi all around. I bet he could take Dooku.

Yes, or even Plo Koon, great general in war, Lead the republic to victory in the stark hyperspace war, he must be able to beat dooku as well.

Kavar seemed to be the strongest in his time apart from Darth Malak, Darth Revan, The Exile, Darth Traya, Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus and Bastilla. I believe he was stronger than Vrook, Vandar, Zez-Kai Ell etc. and even Atris and Darth Bandon. Most of these people were definitely better than Tyranus (including Malak with the power of the Star Forge) and Bastilla arguably, and Kavar seemed to rival Revan during the beginning of the Mandalorian wars and did pretty well against the exile. He was a master in juyo as well as niman and despite popular belief, I don't believe Makashi to be the most effective form and definitely not better than vapaad or ataru. Kavar was very strong in the force as is shown by his use of stasis field when Vaklu's troops ambushed him and The Exile. Dooku also very strong in the force with his powers rivaling Yoda. They were both masters of the force and lightsaber but i believe Dooku is slightly better overall though it does depend on the situation and circumstances.

Originally posted by guesswhosback
Kavar seemed to be the strongest in his time apart from Darth Malak, Darth Revan, The Exile, Darth Traya, Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus and Bastilla. I believe he was stronger than Vrook, Vandar, Zez-Kai Ell etc. and even Atris and Darth Bandon. Most of these people were definitely better than Tyranus (including Malak with the power of the Star Forge) and Bastilla arguably, and Kavar seemed to rival Revan during the beginning of the Mandalorian wars and did pretty well against the exile. He was a master in juyo as well as niman and despite popular belief, I don't believe Makashi to be the most effective form and definitely not better than vapaad or ataru. Kavar was very strong in the force as is shown by his use of stasis field when Vaklu's troops ambushed him and The Exile. Dooku also very strong in the force with his powers rivaling Yoda. They were both masters of the force and lightsaber but i believe Dooku is slightly better overall though it does depend on the situation and circumstances.


F*ck off.

Avis, Kavar was far from an armchair general. He was frontlines style.

used to correcting me arent we Glentract.

Sorgo why did you just say that.

Originally posted by guesswhosback
Sorgo why did you just say that.


Because i felt like it.

dooku has mastered makashi and that is the best lightsaber to lightsaber dueling style (yes, even better than vapaadand has). also he has force powers to rival yodas, i think dooku wins in a few minutes.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
dooku has mastered makashi and that is the best lightsaber to lightsaber dueling style (yes, even better than vapaadand has). also he has force powers to rival yodas, i think dooku wins in a few minutes.

and of course, whan i say had, i mean is.

use edit

That's an exceedingly long list.

I have to give it to Dooku from the evidence we have right now.

True but in his time there were some extremely strong force users around. In Dooku's time I would say that Yoda, Mace Windu and Darth Sidious were all stronger than him and darth vader became more powerful.

vader never became more powerful. Farth Sidious lived in 700 BBY. Get the facts right 700BBY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!

Originally posted by guesswhosback
True but in his time there were some extremely strong force users around. In Dooku's time I would say that Yoda, Mace Windu and Farth Sidious were all stronger than him and darth vader became more powerful.

"farth sidious" typo or you poking fun at old deathbags?

coughdooku>winducoughstayontopiccoughdontarguecough

Originally posted by Sorgo
Because i felt like it.

lol

What a mess.

How does Dooku defeat the head of the Jedi Guardians?

We know Makashi is weak against two people. Kavar uses two blades, this should have a similar effect. Also note the Kavar went into a fight with Malak, and although he wasn't victorious, he survived.

I think Kavar has this.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y89/Dark_Aristokrat/anakinobiavatar6kw.gif

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y89/Dark_Aristokrat/ani-dooku.gif

Say what? Makashi is weak against two blades? Since when?

Looks to me like Dookie can handle two blades, Glentract.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Looks to me like Dookie can handle two blades, Glentract.

I hate Green Day!

Originally posted by guesswhosback
Kavar seemed to be the strongest in his time apart from Darth Malak, Darth Revan, The Exile, Darth Traya, Darth Sion, Darth Nihilus and Bastilla. I believe he was stronger than Vrook, Vandar, Zez-Kai Ell etc. and even Atris and Darth Bandon. Most of these people were definitely better than Tyranus (including Malak with the power of the Star Forge) and Bastilla arguably, and Kavar seemed to rival Revan during the beginning of the Mandalorian wars and did pretty well against the exile. He was a master in juyo as well as niman and despite popular belief, I don't believe Makashi to be the most effective form and definitely not better than vapaad or ataru. Kavar was very strong in the force as is shown by his use of stasis field when Vaklu's troops ambushed him and The Exile. Dooku also very strong in the force with his powers rivaling Yoda. They were both masters of the force and lightsaber but i believe Dooku is slightly better overall though it does depend on the situation and circumstances.
Guesswhoseback? The name Tommy Vercetti mean anything to you?

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Looks to me like Dookie can handle two blades, Glentract.

It is weak against two though. And Kavar is better than Ovi-wan or Anakin by a good deal.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It is weak against two though. And Kavar is better than Ovi-wan or Anakin by a good deal.

Proof please.

Is Kavar better than the two of them combined, though?

Too many assumptions being leveled around.

Really. I just showed two LIVE examples of Dooku keeping excellent pace with multiple blades and even multiple opponents. Your stance needs proof.

Famed Jedi Weapon Master, able to go head to head with Malak, who appears to be is better than Dooku in his own right. The Mandalorians believed him to be the most powerful Jedi alive, better than Vrook even (they probably didn't know about Revan), or is there another reason for him leading the Republic Army? I also read somewhere(I would give a source if I had it) that he was a master of Juyo.

You said it yourself, if the Mandalorians didn't know about Revan, how would they for sure know of the rest of the Jedi? They're ignorance forces you to take their word with a grain of salt.

We know he survived, but again, that alone doesn't seem to say much. Dooku was one of the most esteemed member of the order, with possibly only Yoda above him (and Sidious and Mace at his level).

Correction on that: The Mandalorians -wanted- Kavar to fight against them. Whether they respected his tactical know-how or his prowess in battle is never implied nor stated. They were much happier with Revan though, that much is stated. No one ever refered to him as the most powerful jedi alive. And as for him knowing Juyo, well... it is possible he knows Ataru, Juyo, Shii-Cho and Shien, since these forms are the ones taught by the three jedi masters. It's hard to tell if this is siply a gameplay mechanic ploy (that is, it appears to be in the storyline, but it doesn't neccessarily make for a canon story point. Example: Kreia can ONLY know forms I - III, but yet she has extensive knowledge of ALL of them.)

So really, we have reputation and hearsay. If we seek to have conclusive evidence, Dooku can contend with and likely kill Kavar.

Prove Makashi was weak against more than one blade. Dooku easily played with Asajj and Grievous. He also could've beat Anakin and Obi-Wan twice.

Originally posted by Illustrious
You said it yourself, if the Mandalorians didn't know about Revan, how would they for sure know of the rest of the Jedi? They're ignorance forces you to take their word with a grain of salt.

We know he survived, but again, that alone doesn't seem to say much. Dooku was one of the most esteemed member of the order, with possibly only Yoda above him (and Sidious and Mace at his level).

But I said they may have not known about Revan. They did know about Kavar though. It seems likely that they knew who the Council Members were. They knew a lot about Ancient Sith, showing they do their research.

Dooku had only Yoda above him, but remember, these are PT Jedi. As you love to talk about, a sword master from Medieval times could waste any swordmaster alive today. Jedi were trained to be soldiers back then, not thug killers.

This was only 40 years after Kun. Many Jedi from the Great Sith War were still alive, yet Kavar was thought to be the best to fight the Mandalorians.

The thing about Makashi being weak against multiple opponents was from KOTOR 2. Not the most reputable source, but its also not from gameplay.

True, but a great swordmaster, sitting close to the peak, from today, would manage to beat an above average swordmaster from the medieval period.

Since you like numbers, I'll use a statistics term. I don't know if Kavar has enough deviations from the norm to beat Dooku, who we KNOW has many deviations above the norm.

And there we have it. Folks, don't quote the gameplay mechanics of KOTOR II when dealing with the lightsaber styles. Even when Kreia talks to you about it, she's basically recapping what you can find out if you look at the style in your powers menu. It's a redundant feature, really.

Originally posted by Illustrious
True, but a great swordmaster, sitting close to the peak, from today, would manage to beat an above average swordmaster from the medieval period.

Since you like numbers, I'll use a statistics term. I don't know if Kavar has enough deviations from the norm to beat Dooku, who we KNOW has many deviations above the norm.

Close to the peak? As in the human limit, or just the peak of his time? And don't even call Kavar above average, he was the HEAD of the Jedi Guardians. How does that make him just above average?

I'm sorry, I haven'y slept in a long while. What you said in the second paragraph is probably very clear, but can you clarify what you are saying?

He was the peak of the time, we can't place where the peak of the human limit is. We do know that for most instances, there are diminishing returns at the high end save for the case of a breakthrough (more powerful force powers, for example).

Basically, while you may argue the peak from the KotOR era, and even the mean or median, is stronger than the PT era (and I'd agree with you), we don't know exactly where Kavar places along that distribution, so we can't say he would for sure be stronger than Dooku, who's right at the very extreme of his time.

Originally posted by Illustrious
He was the peak of the time, we can't place where the peak of the human limit is. We do know that for most instances, there are diminishing returns at the high end save for the case of a breakthrough (more powerful force powers, for example).

Basically, while you may argue the peak from the KotOR era, and even the mean or median, is stronger than the PT era (and I'd agree with you), we don't know exactly where Kavar places along that distribution, so we can't say he would for sure be stronger than Dooku, who's right at the very extreme of his time.

Alright, thanks for the clarification(I pulled an all-nighter last night studying for a test, so I'm a little tired).

I agree with you on the first point. I just wanted to make sure you weren't going to try and argue like Nai did about Jedi in both times being close to the physical limit.

True, we don't know where exactly Kavar is, but he seems to be the equivlent of Mace, except more infasis on fighting than negoations. That is just speculation though, so I can't expect that to sway anyone.

I am going to stress again that he was the head of the Guardians. Guardians were the soldiers of the Order. There job was to use force to keep the galaxy ticking. They were the best class in the Order for fighting(except Weapon Master, which is pretty much a branch of the Guardians)This basically means(from my definition of Guardian) that Kavar, being the greatest Guardian as the BEST fighter in the Order.

You could very well argue that Yoda wasn't a Guardian, but he was the best in the Order. That is because he was trained close to the Battle of Ruusan. It doesn't seem likely that the Jedi thought the Sith extinct after only 100 or so years, because remember that the Sith had disappered for longer than this in the past. The Jedi just ended a war that had been raging for a thousand years. They are going to keep training fighters instead of siplomats for some time. When they decided that the Sith were extinct, I don't know.

This would put both of them at the very extremes of their times. Kavar maybe an even greater extreme because he seems to be the best alive, with Dooku for sure in the top four, but almost certainly second at the highest. Even if Vrook was better, then Kavar still would be second best in a time of greater Jedi.

Kavar = Simply awesome. He has 2 lightsabers, too.. so that makes him even more deadlier.

I'd call Dooku awsome too. Not as good as Kavar though.

Hm. Anyways, if you're gonna talk about Classes (Such as Watchman, Weapons Master, etc.), you should know this:

Jedi Guardians: The branch of jedi who are more martial than their counterparts. Their saber color is -traditionally- blue.

Jedi Consulars: The branch of jedi who are more into diplomacy and study of the Force. Their color is green.

Jedi Sentinels: The branch of jedi who balance both aspects of diplomacy and force use along with saber skills. They are typically deployed far and wide, and their color is yellow.

Jedi weapons Masters: Drawn from the ranks of the Guardians, these are jedi who have mastered at least one melee weapon (preferably the lightsaber). Mace Windu for all intents and purposes was a jedi weapons master. Yoda was not. It is likely that Kavar is one, but they are not exactly uncommon in his time period.

Jedi Watchmen: These are master level jedi who are competent enough to be assigned to a certain location to watch over it, hence their title. Drawn from the ranks of the Sentinels (but certainly not exclusively), they are a well rounded branch.

Jedi Master: In straight up RPG terms, Plain old jedi master is really a jedi instructor, someone who dedicates themselves to the Force and to teaching the Force. technically, one can be a good saber duellist and be a jedi instructor/master, but their purpose is unstruction in the ways of the jedi, not particularly the lightsaber.

There's a lot more if you look it up.

I know all that. That's why I called Weaponmasters a branch of the Guardians.

If I hear this junk that Makashi is bad against two opponents again, heads will roll.

Yes, heads will roll. Just like Dooku's! lol

Originally posted by Sorgo
If I hear this junk that Makashi is bad against two opponents again, heads will roll.

How could it be? Dooku beat more than one person..at a time

Showing Dooku is good. That not up for debate, I'd call it a forum fact. Kavar is better though, and Makashi is less effective against two blades, that doesn't mean it is completly worthless.

No, Kavar isn't clearly better by anything presented here, and Makashi is not less effective against two blades. My two animated gifs proved that. Dooku can keep pace with two blades and even dictate the pace.

Alright fine, we'll drop the duel blade advantage. Kavar was the best out of a stronger time of Jedi, how is Dooku better?

lol

He may not be. The point me and Illustrious are trying to make it we don't entirely know enough to make a good guess. Kavar could be leagues above Dooku or on par with Obi-wan. We don't know enough about him to call it either way.

Well of course we can't say for sure, but it certainly points towards Kavar being better.

Well, I always figured he wasn't as good as the Exile because they made the Exile due to their lack of ability to destroy the dark side. However, that might just be because he was a hole in the Force, too. Regardless, that is how I relate Kavar and the other Masters to the rest of the SW universe - through the appearance that they are worse than the Exile, who is on par with Kreia, who is etc., etc. all the way to Dooku and the others.

Originally posted by Darth L. Dipsit
Well, I always figured he wasn't as good as the Exile because they made the Exile due to their lack of ability to destroy the dark side. However, that might just be because he was a hole in the Force, too. Regardless, that is how I relate Kavar and the other Masters to the rest of the SW universe - through the appearance that they are worse than the Exile, who is on par with Kreia, who is etc., etc. all the way to Dooku and the others.

The Exile is most certainly not on par with Traya.

But Traya is defeated by the Exile - how is she better?

I've made a thread about that in the EU section, read it...

Anyways Glentract is fighting for the underdog here, but I have to agree with him. There is very little proof but what he has said does make sense to me at least.

Now a few things

Somebody said the Mandelorians must have misinformed because they didn't know about Revan.

How the hell should they have known about every Jedi there is, they would focus on the more powerful one's and the older one's.

Also always keep in mind that the masters although weaker will be seen as far more important then the rest. Now Kavar is called the strongest by one master who seems to know what he's talking about. And thats saying a lot, there were people around that survived the wars with Exar Kun. And still Kavar also has more experience then them. Now you can put this all in some doubt of course but it has to based on a very large truth, and not just ignorance. Kavar definitly is powerful.

I think that he would defeat Dooku, but just like Glentract I can't really proof it. Which kinda makes this entire debate worthless.

Makashi is not as strong against multiple opponents and is likely not to be as strong against multiple blades. The reason Dooku is very easily able to hold his own against Skywalker and Kenobi is due to the fact that he is extremely incredible with using makashi. His dueling ability is not amazing because of the fact that he used Makashi but because of his strength, skill and precision with a lightsaber.

^^
agreed

sorry guys, im still going for dooku. he seems to be more intune with the force (and he has the darkside). Also he has incredible skill with a blade.

Yeah I go with Dooku too.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
sorry guys, im still going for dooku. he seems to be more intune with the force (and he has the darkside). Also he has incredible skill with a blade.

The Dark Side is not more powerful then the light side. Kavar does too... But nevermind, this debate will go nowhere. No real proof for Kavar so we can't really say he will win.

^agreed. Lacking proof is becoming more and more of a problem these days as people bring up new characters.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
The Exile is most certainly not on par with Traya.

Maybe not mentally, but the Exile owned Traya when it came down to the Lightsaber scrappage.

interesting fight theme... hmmmm, who would win?... I think Duku would win

I think it's even, they stop fighting and decide to buy eachother beers.

so its even?

No. But since Kavar's supporters can't come up with anything substantial for their side, they want a draw.

Thats because there isn't anything besides a few loose quotes...

Look there is a lot of absurd logic that can be used here, but its not going to do any good. Kavar has the reputation in a time of greater Jedi then Windu. He was greater then most other Jedi at that time that includes Jedi that survived the time of Exar Kun and Jedi that fought in the Jedi Civil war.

He has lost from Malak, but thats only logical. I mean we are talking about Malak here. But really Kavar has to be powerful, is he a Dooku? I don't know, I think so yes. But I simply do not have the proof nobody does. Making this thread worthless really.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
No. But since Kavar's supporters can't come up with anything substantial for their side, they want a draw.

Kavar's supporters are doing no such thing(at least this one isn't).

The result is inconclusive. Kavar doesn't have anything to properly measure him up to at this point. Perhaps more will be revealed in the next game. Perhaps not.