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If you notice, a lot of good artists use allusions, puns, similies, metaphorhs, et cetera. Do you think there is literature or a form of spoticated english in music?

Most songs are written, lyrically, as a form of poetry.

Obviously they are unique in that you can't sing a poem to a song. Lyrics are commonly written last, but if good enough I do think they could be considered literary works of genius.

I don't pay much attention to lyrics save for a few.

-AC

I don't know if lyrics are "commonly" written last. Having had the fortune to sit down and talk with a relative accomplished singer/songwriter I had to ask him how he went about writing a song.

His response was that every time was a little different. Sometimes the words came first and it was a task to set music around it. Other times it was a melody in search of words wich could be an equally daunting task.

Music is an artform as it's creation. I don't know if there is any predesignated manner or common way in which to create a song.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
I don't know if lyrics are "commonly" written last. Having had the fortune to sit down and talk with a relative accomplished singer/songwriter I had to ask him how he went about writing a song.

His response was that every time was a little different. Sometimes the words came first and it was a task to set music around it. Other times it was a melody in search of words wich could be an equally daunting task.

Music is an artform as it's creation. I don't know if there is any predesignated manner or common way in which to create a song.

If there was a sort of topic to the song it could be done

I'm going by all the bands I've listened to and them saying that the lyrics are often written last, not by one song writer. Obviously there are exceptions.

I was referring to lyrics being an addition, they're not normally written first because a lot of the vocalists I listen to are reactive artists. They write after being inspired by the music.

I agree it goes both ways though, just not from my experience.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm going by all the bands I've listened to and them saying that the lyrics are often written last, not by one song writer. Obviously there are exceptions.

I was referring to lyrics being an addition, they're not normally written first because a lot of the vocalists I listen to are reactive artists. They write after being inspired by the music.

I agree it goes both ways though, just not from my experience.

-AC

Are you a musician?

Originally posted by Inspectah Deck
Are you a musician?

What makes you ask that? Seems like a bit of a random question. I primarily write lyrics now.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What makes you ask that? Seems like a bit of a random question. I primarily write lyrics now.

-AC

No reason. Just curious

You? (A Musician)

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You? (A Musician)

-AC

Nope

Well, saying that lyrics are commonly written last, and saying that "in my experience and the bands that I listen to, I believe that lyrics are commonly written last are two different things.

I used one songwriter as an example, as you use the bands that you like as another example. I don't believe there are exceptions one way or another as the creative process is binded by few rules that would dictate what is normal or an exception.

Yes, writers are inspired by their music, but it would be a fairly one dimensional artist that is only inspired by their own music, or restricts their lyrics or music to a mere process. Writers are also inspired and affected by the music of others, books, experiences, people, politics and so much more.

Well obviously if every artist/s I've encountered (which is a lot) write their lyrics last then to me it's that they're commonly written last. Not just ones I like.

I'm not saying that's how it always happens.

-AC

Wow, every artist you have encountered writes the same way? Perhaps you need a little more variety in your music?

Lyrics tend to lack the completeness of poetry.

In much the same way that an instrumental will be more musical than a vocal-inclusive song through compensation, so do lyrics have the same luxury.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Lyrics tend to lack the completeness of poetry.

In much the same way that an instrumental will be more musical than a vocal-inclusive song through compensation, so do lyrics have the same luxury.

Well said.

Originally posted by KharmaDog
Wow, every artist you have encountered writes the same way? Perhaps you need a little more variety in your music?

Where did you deduce that they write the same way just because I said they write lyrics last?

You misunderstood the context in which I said it. I was saying it in the context of IF every artist I encountered wrote the same way. Not saying they do.

-AC

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Lyrics tend to lack the completeness of poetry.

In much the same way that an instrumental will be more musical than a vocal-inclusive song through compensation, so do lyrics have the same luxury.

Viktor Vaughn!

As long as it's not rap.

Originally posted by EsteemedLeader
As long as it's not rap.

IMO rap has the most literature content

Well first of all it's not "Rap", is it? It's Hip Hop.

Second, the best Hip Hop lyricists trail the best Rock lyricists by so far that there's no point going into it.

-AC

Both Elton John and Billy Joel write the lyrics first.

Do they use any sort of literature devices?

That means nothing though.

Steve Vai could show you all the guitar techniques in the world, way more than Hendrix. He's not a better guitarist.

Example in hip hop: Canibus. The man pulls out about a million different techniques in every song, it doesn't change the fact that he's just leaning heavily on a thesaurus. He's not saying anything that he couldn't say simpler if he wanted to. That's just impressive vocabulary and technique, it doesn't equate to being good literature or writing.

No hip hop lyricist comes close to people like Chris Cornell, Maynard James Keenan, Mike Patton, Jason Lyttle, Jacob Bannon or Stephen Brodsky. If of course we're judging on RELEVANT literary techniques used and not just showing off.

Rivers Cuomo of Weezer has an English degree from Harvard, if he wanted to he could beat out any lyricist in terms of devices. It was to my understanding that we were judging quality content, not technical content. Because to be fair, anyone with a grasp of advanced English and the dictionary can do that.

The difference between the best hip hop lyricists and the best rock lyricists is that as Revan said, the nature of what MCs do demands that they force themselves to twist things up. It's not needed in rock, so when it happens (Maynard for example) it's natural and that shows quite clearly who the better lyricists are.

No hip hop MC could write the lyrics to Mind Riot, Parabola or such. That's a generalisation but it does also happen to be true which gives it that extra zazz.

-AC

To each their own..

Out of curiousity.. what do you consider to be a "relevant" literary technique used by MJK and company to enhance the lyrics?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Example in hip hop: Canibus. The man pulls out about a million different techniques in every song, it doesn't change the fact that he's just leaning heavily on a thesaurus. He's not saying anything that he couldn't say simpler if he wanted to. That's just impressive vocabulary and technique, it doesn't equate to being good literature or writing.

True. But it does take a certain degree of talent to make all of those techniques, make sense.

It's not to each their own unless we're discussing what we prefer. If we're discussing what genre has the better lyricists it's provable.

By relevancy I mean not going out of your way to come across as intelligent in your lyrics. By using fancy vocab or trying to discuss subjects that you think will make you look smart. Lot's of "smart" hip hop MCs do this. Maynard never does. Even the best hip hop MCs like Doom, who may very well not attempt to look intelligent but are, don't produce lyrics on par with the material Maynard comes up with.

Can any of us seriously say that a hip hop MC could write Parabola, Reflection, Third Eye, Lateralus or any of those? No.

Chris Cornell uses a lot of imagery in his lyrics, most notably the recent song Doesn't Remind Me. I'm not saying hip hop MCs don't use imagery but it's never pulled off as well.

There was a case where a university professor used Maynard's lyrics in a lecture. I don't remember MF Doom or any of hip hop's elite having that accolade.

Originally posted by Inspectah Deck
True. But it does take a certain degree of talent to make all of those techniques, make sense.

That's not what we're discussing though is it? We're not discussing who can show off. We're discussing what genre has the better lyricists.

To imply that hip hop has anyone remotely close to being able to challenge rock's best is hilarity of the highest order.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Obviously they are unique in that you can't sing a poem to a song. Lyrics are commonly written last, but if good enough I do think they could be considered literary works of genius.

I don't pay much attention to lyrics save for a few.

-AC
Hate to bring up old posts...
But thats kinda what my dad does for fun....
Put Poetry to music... Choir plus orchestra or something...

That actually happened in one of my classes last year....though it wasn't really intentional, it got brought up in discussion.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's not to each their own unless we're discussing what we prefer. If we're discussing what genre has the better lyricists it's provable. Then prove it and end this argument before it begins..

Examples:

"With vice I hold the mike device
With force I keep it away of course
And I'm keepin' you from sleepin'
And on stage I rage
And I'm rollin'
To the poor I pour in on in metaphors
Not bluffin', it's nothin'
That we ain't did before
We played you stayed
The points made
You consider it done
By the prophets of rage
(Power of the people say)

I roll with the punches so I survive
Try to rock 'cause it keeps the crowd alive
I'm not ballin', I'm just callin'
But I'm past the days of yes y'allin'
Wa wiggle round and round
I pump, you jump up
Hear my words my verbs
And get juiced up
I been around a while
You can descibe my sound
Clear the way
For the prophets of rage
(Power of the people say)

I rang ya bell
Can you tell I got feelin'
Just peace at least
Cause I want it
Want it so bad
That I'm starvin'
I'm like Garvey
So you can see B
It's like that, I'm like Nat
Leave me the hell alone
If you don't think I'm a brother
Then check the chromosomes
Then check the stage
I declare it a new age
Get down for the prophets of rage
Keep you from gettin' like this

You back the track
You find we're the quotable
You emulate
Brothers, sisters thats beautiful
Follow a path
Of positivity you go
Some sing it or rap it
Or harmonize it through Go-Go
Little you know but very
Seldom I do party jams
About a plan

I'm considered the man
I'm the recordable
But God made it affordable
I say it, you play it
Back in your car or even portable
Stereo
Describes my scenario
Left or right, Black or White
They tell lies in the books
That you're readin'
It's knowledge of yourself
That you're needin'
Like Vescey or Prosser
We have a reason why
To debate the hate
That's why we're born to die
Mandela, cell dweller, Thatcher
You can tell her clear the way for the prophets of rage
(Power of the people you say)

It's raw and keepin' you on the floor
Its soul and keepin' you in control
It's pt. 2 cause I'm
Pumpin' what you're used to
Until the whole juice crew
Gets me in my goose down
I do the rebel yell
And I'm the duracell
Call it plain insane
Brothers causein' me pain
When a brothers a victim
And the sellers a dweller in a cage
Yo, run the a capella
(Power of the people say)"

Chuck D's on Prophets of Rage by Public Enemy.. Incredible.

"To tha young r to tha e tha b to tha e tha l
Never give up just live up
Fed upon America
We be spittin' it up
Rippin' it up
For an even amount in each cup
To my brothers burning bare feet on black top
Whose curled 'neath tha shadows
From tha gaze of tha cops
Whose huntin' for 9 to 5's through factory locks
Is now hunted on this modern day auction block

Mic Check, ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?
Mic Check, ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?

Check check check check the check, oh
packin

Flexin' and mashin'
With complex text
Fast and in a fashion
That snap back necks
Quicker than a fed cash tha company checks
Come with tha fire only Marley could catch
This be tha flame in tha cellar beware
Nameless cold millions gaspin' for air
Those naked and wageless
Now scream within cages
What, they make you pull your shit
Just to get your share, what?

Mic Check, ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?
Mic Check, ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?

Welcome down with the warrior sound, UGH!

With this mic device
I spit nonfiction
Who got tha power
This be my question
Tha mass of tha few in this torn nation?
Tha priest tha book or tha congregation?
Tha politricks who rob and hold down your zone?
Or those who give tha thieves tha key to their homes?
Tha pig who's free to murder one Shucklak
Or survivors who make a move and murder one back?

This mic device
I spit nonfiction
Who got tha power
This be my question
Tha mass of tha few in this torn nation?
Tha priest tha book or tha congregation?
Tha politricks who rob and hold down your zone?
Or those who give tha thieves tha key to their homes?
Tha pig who's free to murder one Shucklak
Or survivors who make a move and murder one back?

Mic Check, ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?
Mic Check, ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha
I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?"

Zack De La Rocha from Mic Check by Rage Against the Machine.

"My mother said, "You sucked my pussy when you came out
Don't ever talk back
I handed your life and I'll snatch it back"
I'm just a latch key kid with a snotty nose
High school drop out
Space, I'm around me whiteout
And I ain't dealin with no minimum wage
I'd rather construct rhymes on a minimum page
Cynical ways, cats sin for nickels these days
Pulling the chrome out
And you actin like pullin the chrome out
Hated the sound of grandma's cryin the crooked letter
You could hear it from the ground or when the sky thunders
Made you wonder 'bout early
Sunday morning
Relatives dressed in black and they all mourning
Flows be bangin in the paint, throwin elbows
My first fight was me against five boroughs
I lost my first witch
But remembered every detail of my first kiss
That's that Bronx Tale bliss
The holiest of holies
Hip hop, it was '88
Even at the age of 10, phrases levitate
Drinkin Lil' Hug quarter waters
Dodgin stray slugs on the corner in that exact order
While you playin, death is what happens
I found the passion in aerosol cans and hands clappin
Backspins, microphones and cats rappin
Linoleum and up rockers, the show shockers
Who rip Lee patches off of imposters
You ain't the Real McCoy, you a wind up toy
And it's gonna cost ya
And that's my B-Boy Alpha"

Vast Aire's verse from B-Boy Alpha by Cannibal Ox.

So that's some of what I'd consider to be the cream of hip hop lyricism.

Here's the rock side:

"We barely remember who or what came before this precious moment,
We are Choosing to be here right now. Hold on, stay inside...
This holy reality, this holy experience. Choosing to be here in...

This body. This body holding me. Be my reminder here that I am not alone in
This body, this body holding me, feeling eternal all this pain is an illusion.

Alive

This holy reality, in this holy experience. Choosing to be here in...

This body. This body holding me. Be my reminder here that I am not alone in
This body, this body holding me, feeling eternal all this pain is an illusion...
Of what it means to be alive

Swirling round with this familiar parable.
Spinning, weaving round each new experience.
Recognize this as a holy gift and celebrate this
chance to be alive and breathing
chance to be alive and breathing.

This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality.
Embrace this moment. Remember. we are eternal.
all this pain is an illusion."

Maynard James Keenan's lyrics from Parabola by Tool.

"I was slipping through the cracks
Of a stolen jewel
I was tightrope
Walking in two ton shoes
Now somebody is talking about a
Third world war
And the police said this was normal control
And the candle was burning yesterday
Like somebody's best friend died
And I've been caught in a mind riot
I was crying from my eye teeth and
Bleeding from my soul
And I sharpened my wits on a dead man's skull
I built an elevator from his bones
Had to climb to the top floor just
To stamp out the coals
And the candle was burning yesterday
Like somebody's best friend died
And I've been caught in a mind riot
I'm tied within
I'm luck's last match struck
In the pouring down wind"

Chris Cornell's lyrics from Mind Riot by Soundgarden.

"Awaken from the bliss of sleep
The daybreak haunts you in such a subtle light
I hear them. they tell me these roads we have travelled fork up beyond the bend
Beneath the flutter of desperate wings
they sing a song of reclamation
Where tomorrow's hanging horizon
interrupts the hum of electrical towers
Here, there are the shallow graves, the shallower romances
and the shallowest of words still to be spoken
and there you are with open ears
Locust reign on your parade"

Jacob Bannon's lyrics from Locust Reign by Converge.

"And we continue to chase the sun
Only to burn up both our hands
And we will find out what's to know . . .
In warning winds the truth will blow

You might feel I'm feeling all the guilt
Dragging out the hours, all deceived
Well, both are harmless and haunting to me
Now remember your heroes
As a cancel out zero
Like you were young again

A man you haven't seen in years
Ressurecting your deepest fears
Returns a favor unto himself . . .
By turning us the other cheek

You're just a coat of red in hell.

You might feel I'm feeling all the guilt
And now remember your heroes
As a cancel out zero
You were never the one to break away

Dragging out the hours, all deceived
Now remember your heroes
As a cancel out zero
You were never the one to break free

Who turned your eyes away?
Who turned your eyes to grey?

You're another coat of red in hell.
Kill this child to make sure I'd raise him well.

On a concrete road to recovery
While I'm knocking over every road cone
In front of me."

Stephen Brodsky's lyrics from Big Riff by Cave In.

A hip hop MC can rhyme and thesaurus his way through a song all he wants. He won't be able to compete with those men for lyricism and ability. Those are just one song each, I could go on forever.

-AC

Just as great literature can encompass such diverse pieces as the perplexing 'Ulysses' and the simple, beauty of 'The Great Gatsby', so too can great examples of lyrical expression.

One man's 'Parabola' does not beat another's 'Prophets of Rage', just because one conforms to the more rigid definition of what is 'literary'.

Literature and lyricism are both forms of expression. Expression is an individual concept shared with others, therefore arguing over which genre of lyrical expression is better is moot. There is no better or worse, just different forms that appeal to different people.

The point you are quite clearly missing is that I'm pointing out, as you already said, that the lyrics of Maynard and rock's other great lyricists are more ladvanced in the literary sense than hip hop's. I'm not trying to say hip hop's best don't have talent, I'm not claiming any less of MCs which has seem to be the misconception/

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Obviously they are unique in that you can't sing a poem to a song. Lyrics are commonly written last, but if good enough I do think they could be considered literary works of genius.

I don't pay much attention to lyrics save for a few.

-AC

Me too. Some of my favorite songs, I don't even know what they are saying.

Bob Dylan pretty much wrote every song ever made.

Abandoned Love
Absolutely Sweet Marie.....
Ain't A-Gonna Grieve
Ain't No Man Righteous
Alberta (#1 and #2)
All Along The Watchtower.....
All I Really Want To Do
All Over You
All The Tired Horses
Angelina
Apple Suckling Tree
Are You Ready
Arthur McBride
As I Went Out One Morning



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
B
Baby, I'm In The Mood For You
Baby, Stop Crying
Ballad For A Friend
Ballad In Plain D
Ballad Of A Thin Man.....
Ballad Of Donald White
Ballad Of Frankie Lee And Judas Priest
Ballad Of Hollis Brown
Band Of The Hand
Belle Isle
Billy.....
Black Crow Blues
Black Diamond Bay
Blackjack Davey
Blind Willie McTell
Blood In My Eyes
Blowin' In The Wind.....
Bob Dylan's 115th Dream
Bob Dylan's Blues
Bob Dylan's Dream.....
Bob Dylan's New Orleans Rag
Boots Of Spanish Leather
Born In Time
Broke Down Engine
Brownsville Girl
Buckets Of Rain
Bunkhouse Theme
Bye And Bye



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C
California
Call Letter Blues
Can You Please Crawl Out Your Window?
Canadee-I-O
Can't Wait
Cantina Theme (Workin' For The Law)
Caribbean Wind
Catfish
Cat's In The Well
Changing Of The Guards
Chimes Of Freedom
Clean Cut Kid
Clothes Line Saga
Cold Irons Bound
Coming From The Heart
Corrina, Corrina
Country Pie
Covenant Woman
Cover Down, Break Through
Cry A While



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D
Dark Eyes
Day Of The Locusts.....
Dead Man, Dead Man
Dear Landlord.....
Death Is Not The End
Death Of Emmett Till, The
Delia
Denise
Desolation Row.....
Diamond Joe
Dignity
Dirge
Dirt Road Blues
Disease Of Conceit
Do Right To Me Baby
Don't Fall Apart On Me Tonight
Don't Think Twice, It's All Right
Don't Ya Tell Henry
Down Along The Cove
Down In The Flood
Down The Highway
Drifter's Escape
Driftin' Too Far From Shore
Dusty Fairgrounds

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
E
Emotionally Yours
Eternal Circle
Every Grain Of Sand
Everything Is Broken



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
F
Farewell
Farewell, Angelina
Father Of Night
Final Theme
Floater (Too Much To Ask)
Foot Of Pride
Forever Young.....
Fourth Time Around
Frankie And Albert
Freight Train Blues
Froggie Went A-Courtin'
From A Buick 6



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
G
Gates Of Eden
George Jackson
Get Your Rocks Off!
Girl Of The North Country.....
Go 'Way Little Boy
God Knows
Going, Going, Gone.....
Goin' To Acapulco
Golden Loom
Gonna Change My Way Of Thinking
Gospel Plow
Got My Mind Made Up
Gotta Serve Somebody
Groom's Still Waiting At The Altar, The
Guess I'm Doin' Fine
Gypsy Lou



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
H
Had A Dream About You, Baby
Handy Dandy
Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall, A
Hard Times
Hard Times In New York Town
Hazel
He Was A Friend Of Mine
Heart Of Mine
Heartland
Hero Blues
High Water (For Chaley Patton)
Highlands
Highway 61 Revisited
Honest With Me
House Carpenter
House Of The Risin' Sun
Hurricane



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I
I Am A Lonesome Hobo
I And I
I Believe In You
I Don't Believe You
I Dreamed I Saw St. Augustine
I Pity The Poor Immigrant
I Shall Be Free
I Shall Be Free No.10
I Shall Be Released.....
I Threw It All Away
I Wanna Be Your Lover
I Want You.....
Idiot Wind
If Dogs Run Free
If I Don't Be There By Morning
If Not For You.....
If You Gotta Go, Go Now
If You See Her, Say Hello
In Search Of Little Sadie
In The Garden
In The Summertime
Is Your Love In Vain?
Isis
It Ain't Me, Babe
It Hurts Me Too
It Takes A Lot To Laugh, It Takes A Train To Cry
It's All Over Now, Baby Blue.....
It's Alright, Ma
I'd Hate To Be You On That Dreadful Day
I'd Have You Any Time
I'll Be Your Baby Tonight
I'll Keep It With Mine.....
I'll Remember You



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J
Jack-A-Roe
Jet Pilot
Jim Jones
Joey
John Brown
John Wesley Harding
Jokerman
Just Allow Me One More Chance
Just Like A Woman.....
Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
K
Kingsport Town
Knockin' On Heaven's Door.....



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
L
Last Thoughts On Woody Guthrie
Lay Down Your Weary Tune
Lay, Lady, Lay
Legionnaire's Disease
Lenny Bruce
Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat
Let Me Die In My Footsteps
Let's Keep It Between Us
License To Kill
Like A Rolling Stone.....
Lily, Rosemary And The Jack Of Hearts
Little Maggie
Little Sadie
Living The Blues
Lo And Behold!
Lone Pilgrim
Lonesome Day Blues
Lonesome Death Of Hattie Carroll, The
Long Ago, Far Away
Long Distance Operator
Long Time Gone
Lord Protect My Child
Love Henry
Love Is Just A Four Letter Word
Love Minus Zero/No Limit.....
Love Sick



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
M
Maggie's Farm
Main Title Theme (Billy)
Make You Feel My Love
Mama, You Been On My Mind
Man Gave Names To All The Animals
Man In Me, The
Man In The Long Black Coat
Man Of Constant Sorrow
Man Of Peace
Man On The Street
Masters Of War
Maybe Someday
Meet Me In The Morning
Million Dollar Bash
Million Miles
Minstrel Boy
Mississippi
Mixed-Up Confusion
Money Blues
Moonlight
Moonshiner
Most Likely You Go Your Way
Most Of The Time
Motorpsycho Nitemare
Mozambique
Mr. Tambourine Man.....
My Back Pages



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N
Nashville Skyline Rag
Need A Woman
Neighborhood Bully
Never Gonna Be The Same Again
Never Say Goodbye
New Morning
New Pony
Night After Night
No Time To Think
No More Auction Block
Nobody 'Cept You
North Country Blues
Not Dark Yet
Nothing Was Delivered



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
O
Obviously 5 Believers
Odds And Ends
Oh, Sister
On A Night Like This
On The Road Again
One More Cup Of Coffee.....
One More Night
One More Weekend
One Of Us Must Know
One Too Many Mornings
Only A Hobo
Only A Pawn In Their Game
Open The Door, Homer
Outlaw Blues
Oxford Town



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P
Paths Of Victory
Peggy Day
Percy's Song
Playboys And Playgirls
Please, Mrs. Henry
Pledging My Time
Po' Boy
Political World
Poor Boy Blues
Positively 4th Street
Precious Angel
Precious Memories
Pressing On
Property Of Jesus



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q
Queen Jane Approximately.....
Quinn, The Eskimo
Quit Your Low Down Ways



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
R
Ragged & Dirty
Rainy Day Women #12 & 35
Rambling, Gambling Willie
Restless Farewell
Ring Them Bells.....
Rita May
River Theme
Rocks And Gravel (Solid Road)
Romance In Durango



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S
Sad Eyed Lady Of The Lowlands
Santa-Fe
Sara
Sarah Jane
Saved
Saving Grace
Seeing The Real You At Last
Series Of Dreams
Seven Curses
Seven Days
Senor (Tales Of Yankee Power)
She Belongs To Me
Shelter From The Storm
Shenandoah
She's Your Lover Now
Shooting Star
Shot Of Love
Sign Language
Sign On The Cross
Sign On The Window.....
Silent Weekend
Silvio
Simple Twist Of Fate
Sitting On A Barbed Wire Fence
Sittin' On Top Of The World
Slow Train
Solid Rock
Someone's Got A Hold Of My Heart
Something There Is About You.....
Something's Burning, Baby
Song To Woody
Spanish Harlem Incident
Spanish Is The Loving Tongue
Stack A Lee
Standing In The Doorway
Standing On The Highway
Steel Bars
Step It Up And Go
Stuck Inside Of Mobile With The Memphis Blues Again.....
Subterranean Homesick Blues
Sugar baby
Summer Days
Suze (The Cough Song)
Sweetheart Like You



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
T
T V Talkin' Song
Talkin' Bear Mountain Picnic Massacre
Talkin' Hava Negeilah Blues
Talkin' John Birch Paranoid Blues
Talkin' New York Blues
Talkin' World War III Blues
Tangled Up In Blue
Tears Of Rage
Tell Me
Tell Me That It Isn't True
Tell Me, Momma
Temporary Like Achilles
Things Have Changed
This Wheel's On Fire
Three Angels
Tight Connection To My Heart
'Til I Fell In Love With You
Time Passes Slowly.....
Times They Are A-Changin', The
Tiny Montgomery
To Be Alone With You
To Ramona
Tombstone Blues
Tomorrow Is A Long Time
Tonight I'll Be Staying Here With You
Too Much Of Nothing
Tough Mama
Train A-Travelin'
Trouble
Trouble In Mind
True Love Tends To Forget
Trust Yourself
Tryin' To Get To Heaven
Turkey Chase
Tweedle Dee & Tweedle Dum
Two Soldiers



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
U
Ugliest Girl In The World
Unbelievable
Under The Red Sky
Under Your Spell
Union Sundown
Up To Me



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
V
Visions Of Johanna



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
W
Walk Out In The Rain
Walkin' Down The Line
Wallflower
Walls Of Red Wing
Wandering Kind, The
Wanted Man
Watching The River Flow
Watered-Down Love
We Better Talk This Over
Wedding Song
Went To See The Gypsy
What Can I Do For You?
What Good Am I
What Was It You Wanted
Whatcha Gonna Do?
When He Returns
When I Paint My Masterpiece
When The Night Comes Falling
When The Ship Comes In
When You Gonna Wake Up
Where Are You Tonight
Where The Teardrops Fall
Who Killed Davey Moore
Wicked Messenger, The
Wiggle Wiggle
Wigwam
Winterlude
With God On Our Side
Woogie Boogie
World Gone Wrong
Worried Blues



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y
Ye Shall Be Changed
Yea! Heavy And A Bottle Of Bread
You Ain't Goin' Nowhere
You Angel, You
You Changed My Life
You're A Big Girl Now
You're Gonna Make Me Lonesome When You Go
You're Gonna Quit Me

A hip hop MC can rhyme and thesaurus his way through a song all he wants. He won't be able to compete with those men for lyricism and ability. Those are just one song each, I could go on forever.

-AC Ok well you've provided examples of what you consider to be the best lyrics from each genre, now it's time to connect the dots and prove that the lyrics in the second half are better than the lyrics in the first half.

And for the record, I don't think you really chose the "cream of the crop" in hip hop. I mean obviously you love songs like parabola for the content, not the words used correct? Cause the words (like most rock songs ) are pretty simple and straight forward, cause like you said before they have no need to "show off." So if you're judging the rock lyrics on content, why would you choose rap lyrics that have little to no content value? I mean the verses you chose were great and all when it comes to said literary devices, but they weren't really ABOUT anything. I could think of plenty of hip hop songs that have strong content the same way Tool songs do.. maybe not in the same "philosophical" way, but that's what leads us back to "different strokes for different folks."

Well you show what you believe to be the cream of the crop in terms of hip hop lyricism, content wise. A few, infact. I'll then post a couple Tool songs and we can analyse what lyrics are superior in terms of literature, meaning and such.

I think it's quite futile trying to find a hip hop lyric that will be anything worthy of thinking to compare to Tool, but by all means I'm up for being surprised.

-AC

Learn to swim. Learn to swim.

Well honestly even if we "analyse" the lyrics all day long, you're never going to be able to "prove" that the Tool lyrics are better so this whole thing is pretty futile.

But here are some examples of what I consider the cream of the crop hip hop lyrics content wise..

Here's one of my favorite Pulp songs called I Spy.

I Spy Lyrics
by Pulp

I spy a boy, I spy a girl.
I spy the worst place in the world, in the whole world.
Oh you didn't do bad, you made it out, I'm still stuck here oh but I'll get out.
Oh yeah I'll get out.
Can't you see a walks among you seeing through your pretty lives.
Do you think I do these things for real?
I do these things just so I survive. And you know I will survive.
It may look to the untrained eye
I'm sitting on my arse all day
And I'm biding my time until I take you all on my Lords and Ladies
I will prevail, I cannot fail.
Cause I spy.
Oh I've got your numbers taken notes and all the ways your minds work out.
I've studied and your mind's just the same as mine except that you're just clever swines
You never let masks slip, you never admit to it, you're never hurried.
Oh no no no.
And every night I hold my plan how I'll get my satisfaction
How I will blow your paradise away away away ooh.
Cause I spy.
It's just like in the old days - I used to compose my own critical notices in my head.
The crowd gasps at Cocker's masterful control of the bicycle
Skilfully avoiding the dog turd next to the corner shop.
Imagining a blue plaque above the place I first ever felt a girl's breasts,
the whole 'nana.
You've got to wait for the best.
You see you should take me seriously. Very seriously indeed.
Cause I've been sleeping with your wife for the past sixteen weeks
Smoking your cigarettes, drinking your brandy,
messing up the bed you chose together.
And in all that time I just wanted you to come home unexpectedly one afternoon
And catch us at it in the front room.
You see I spy for a living and I specialise in revenge
On taking the things I know will cause you pain.
I can't help it, I was dragged up.
My favourite park's a car park, grass is something you smoke,
birds is something you shag.
Take your year in Provence and shove it right up your arse.
Your Ladbroke Grove looks turn me on, yeah.
With your frightened eyes and roach burns under your eyes and addresses
And thousands of tiny dryna-slides running a path,
running a path to the corner of your eyes.
And every night I hatch my plan, it's not a case of woman v man.
It's more a case of haves against haven'ts and I just
happen to have got what you need, just exactly what you need yeah.
La la la la la la la la la la, in the midnight hour.
La la la la la la la la la la, I will come to you, I will come to you
I will take you from this sickness, dinner parties and champagne
I'll hold your body and make it sing again. come on - sing again, let's sing again.
Oh yeah, cause I spy, yes, I spy, ssss.
I spy a boy and I spy a girl.
I spy the chance to change the world, to change your world.

Lyrics are sooo subjective. Now, AC, you and I have argued the merrits of Elton John, before. But, as I stated in that discussion, I think so highly of Elton and Bernies lyrics, because that is how if effects me....personally. And, lyrics effect people because of their interpretation of those lyrics. Now, I agree with you 100% that rap lyrics are terrible. However, I admit that those who find them...inspirational....deep...meaningful....are allowed to their opinion.

Take this song for example: I think it has some of the greatest lyrics ever put to music, but others might not think so....

GREY SEAL

Why's it never light on my lawn
Why does it rain and never say good-day to the new-born
On the big screen they showed us a sun
But not as bright in life as the real one
It's never quite the same as the real one

And tell me grey seal
How does it feel
To be so wise
To see through eyes
That only see what's real
Tell me grey seal

I never learned why meteors were formed
I only farmed in schools that were so warn and torn
If anyone can cry then so can I
I read books and draw life from the eye
All my life is drawings from the eye

Your mission bells were wrought by ancient men
The roots were formed by twisted roots
Your roots were twisted then
I was re-born before all life could die
The Phoenix bird will leave this world to fly
If the Phoenix bird can fly then so can I

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Lyrics are sooo subjective. Now, AC, you and I have argued the merrits of Elton John, before. But, as I stated in that discussion, I think so highly of Elton and Bernies lyrics, because that is how if effects me....personally. And, lyrics effect people because of their interpretation of those lyrics. Now, I agree with you 100% that rap lyrics are terrible. However, I admit that those who find them...inspirational....deep...meaningful....are allowed to their opinion.

Take this song for example: I think it has some of the greatest lyrics ever put to music, but others might not think so....

GREY SEAL

Why's it never light on my lawn
Why does it rain and never say good-day to the new-born
On the big screen they showed us a sun
But not as bright in life as the real one
It's never quite the same as the real one

And tell me grey seal
How does it feel
To be so wise
To see through eyes
That only see what's real
Tell me grey seal

I never learned why meteors were formed
I only farmed in schools that were so warn and torn
If anyone can cry then so can I
I read books and draw life from the eye
All my life is drawings from the eye

Your mission bells were wrought by ancient men
The roots were formed by twisted roots
Your roots were twisted then
I was re-born before all life could die
The Phoenix bird will leave this world to fly
If the Phoenix bird can fly then so can I

A) Never did I say hip hop lyrics are terrible.

B) Lyrics are only subjective in terms of what we prefer. Like music. I can't make you hear how great I think a band are, vice versa. There ARE areas where it's probably. It was to my understanding that we were discussing who uses the balance of technical ability with lyrics and actual intelligent/meaningful subject matter. In which case, I don't think Maynard can be topped by any hip hop lyricist. Or any of rock's best.

That was my only point.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Personally I find it outlandish to insist any MC could equal or better those.

-AC That's fine. Personally, I find it outlandish to place anyone as high as you place Maynard as far as lyricism goes. And Maynard happens to be one of my favorite rock lyricists, but the way you act as if he's miles and miles above other lyricists I like.. I just think it's a bit over the top. But it's your opinion, and I'm fine with that. The only thing I'm not fine with is you claiming that it's something factual.

I believe it to be one of those issues that can't factually be proven (where preference is concerned) but is more or less true.

I cannot make you admit that Maynard is better than any hip hop lyricist, but I think it's about as borderline to being a fact as you can get. No hip hop lyricist has ever or will ever write something of the quality that I just showed you.

-AC

That's not the same as claiming it's a fact.. that's basically just an opinion you believe very strongly..

I know, what's your point?

When I say provable I meant in technique only. Not preference. Of course I can't prove preference.

Doesn't disprove that what I said it's more likely to be true than it is false.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Those songs are excellent. I'm a big fan of Common, Mos Def and Aesop Rock.

Personally I find it outlandish to insist any MC could equal or better those.

-AC

Forgot what is (in my opinion) the best Tool song....



Anyway, I do think that Maynard is probably the best lyricist, by far. Honestly, I listen to a lot of different music, some has excellent lyrics, some has crap...but I really haven't heard anything yet that approaches the lyrics that he writes.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I know, what's your point?

When I say provable I meant in technique only. Not preference. Of course I can't prove preference.You haven't proven either..

And really when it comes to "technique" I'd say the best rappers outdo the best rock lyricists, although you just consider it "showing off" rap lyricism revolves around literary devices and complicated rhymes..

I'm the one arguing that this whole thing is subjective and can't be proven or disproven. How does it make sense for me to argue that it's subjective while trying to disprove your preference on lyricism? That makes no sense.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
You haven't proven either..

And really when it comes to "technique" I'd say the best rappers outdo the best rock lyricists, although you just consider it "showing off" rap lyricism revolves around literary devices and complicated rhymes..

As I said, Canibus uses all the techniques and complex devices under the sun. It doesn't change the fact that he's just leaning on the thesaurus. It's not natural use, it's just trying hard. Something Maynard could do, something Rivers Cuomo could do. They don't, they write naturally and they're still producing transcendtal lyrics that surpass that of hip hop MCs. If you PREFER the hip hop MCs, fine. You can't deny that what Maynard writes is beyond hip hop MCs, you can't sanely deny that.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I'm the one arguing that this whole thing is subjective and can't be proven or disproven. How does it make sense for me to argue that it's subjective while trying to disprove your preference on lyricism? That makes no sense.

You missed my point. Preference or not, my claim of Maynard being better than any lyricist in hip hop is more likely to be true than not true. The lyrics you posted in terms of subject matter and topic, literacy, fall way short of anything I just posted. If you prefer them, fine.

Originally posted by Lana
Forgot what is (in my opinion) the best Tool song....

I don't think there is a best Tool song really. I think there are ones better than others but once you get to a certain level it's impossible to call.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't think there is a best Tool song really. I think there are ones better than others but once you get to a certain level it's impossible to call.

-AC

True....but you know that that particular song means more for me than any other song.

Of course, I remember sending you the lyrics in conjunction with that .

I was just saying.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
As I said, Canibus uses all the techniques and complex devices under the sun. It doesn't change the fact that he's just leaning on the thesaurus. It's not natural use, it's just trying hard. Something Maynard could do, something Rivers Cuomo could do. They don't, they write naturally and they're still producing transcendtal lyrics that surpass that of hip hop MCs. If you PREFER the hip hop MCs, fine. You can't deny that what Maynard writes is beyond hip hop MCs, you can't sanely deny that. I'm not really familiar with Canibus so I'm not going to argue him personally.. but technical rappers like Nas and GZA don't rely on a thesaurus at all. In fact I don't get where you think a thesaurus would help one with developing complex rhyme schemes and punchlines or the storytelling abilities often displayed in hip hop lyricism. That's what I consider technique, bending and manipulating words to sound good when put together beyond just the basic "meaning" of what they are saying.. without even understanding the message of the song I can say that Nas's lyrics SOUND good cause the words go great together, I can't say that about Maynard cause the appreciation I get from his lyrics are from the content alone, not from the words used. Get me?


"More likely to be true than false?" It doesn't work like that. If it's a matter of fact it's either true or false.. not just leaning more to one side than the other. This happens to be a matter of opinion. Opinions can't be "more" or "less" true no matter how strongly you believe in them.

Anyway... I gotta go to work. It's been nice. Peace.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
A) Never did I say hip hop lyrics are terrible.

B) Lyrics are only subjective in terms of what we prefer.
-AC

A) Okay, I'm the one that thinks that rap lyrics are terrible

B) Duh

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I'm not really familiar with Canibus so I'm not going to argue him personally.. but technical rappers like Nas and GZA don't rely on a thesaurus at all. In fact I don't get where you think a thesaurus would help one with developing complex rhyme schemes and punchlines or the storytelling abilities often displayed in hip hop lyricism. That's what I consider technique, bending and manipulating words to sound good when put together beyond just the basic "meaning" of what they are saying.. without even understanding the message of the song I can say that Nas's lyrics SOUND good cause the words go great together, I can't say that about Maynard cause the appreciation I get from his lyrics are from the content alone, not from the words used. Get me?

I love Illmatic but I lost respect for Nas when he became hypocrite of the century. The man contradicts himself more than anyone. GZA is one of my favourite MCs ever, but nothing he has produced is on intelligence par with what Maynard comes up with lyrically. Both in literacy or subject.

I do get you there, that's fine. It doesn't mean that Maynard isn't using words that are equally impressive, just doesn't stand out as much.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
"More likely to be true than false?" It doesn't work like that. If it's a matter of fact it's either true or false.. not just leaning more to one side than the other. This happens to be a matter of opinion. Opinions can't be "more" or "less" true no matter how strongly you believe in them.

Well opinion can be wrong and some opinions are more valid than others.

I'm not denying it's opinion, you can sit there and deny it all day long due to preference. You're obviously not aware that the point I'm making is that Maynard's lyrics (see the ones I posted) are beyond any MC's ability.

-AC

The examining of 'literary devices' amounts to a comparison in linguistics. Comparing them doesn't equate to a literary comparison.

This discussion is all over the place.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's not what we're discussing though is it? We're not discussing who can show off. We're discussing what genre has the better lyricists.

To imply that hip hop has anyone remotely close to being able to challenge rock's best is hilarity of the highest order.

-AC

Rock in general is mostly instrumental. Not much of the lyrics have depth. Hip Hop on the other hand is all about lyrics IMO

I think Iron Maiden turned some literature into music.Think The Trooper.No choruses and all.Sounds like a poem too.Dont really know if im right

Originally posted by Inspectah Deck
Rock in general is mostly instrumental. Not much of the lyrics have depth. Hip Hop on the other hand is all about lyrics IMO

Not much of the lyrics in rock have depth?

Please leave the thread, learn about music then return when you have some knowledge.

-AC

The Counting Crows, Bruce Springsteen, Van Morrison, John Lennon, Elvis Costello, Bob Dylan, Ian Brown, Shaun Ryder some of the lyrics these guys have produced do speak to you.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Those songs are excellent. I'm a big fan of Common, Mos Def and Aesop Rock.







Personally I find it outlandish to insist any MC could equal or better those.

-AC

Alot of MC's could do better. So far you named a couple of bands that write good lyrics. I can give you a page of rappers that can do equal or even better than the bands you stated

Common Sense - G.O.D
After bein' 25 you know just trying to survive in the world Bout
to have a little boy or baby girl. Who knows? Anyway just when you start
gettin that little age and experience to you You start thinkin about
stuff...tryin to make the right moves So bust it out this is what I was
thinkin check it Yo the education of the Lon chicka Lonnie Lynn
Began, began with time Bein my bloodline is one with the divine In
time brotha, you will discover the light Some say that God is Black and the
Devil's White Well, the Devil is wrong and God is what's right I fight,
with myself in the ring of doubt and fear The rain ain't gone, but I can
still see clear As a child, given religion with no answer to why Just
told believe in Jesus cuz for me he did die Curiosity killed the catechism
Understanding and wisdom became the rhythm that I played to And became a
slave to master self A rich man is one with knowledge, happiness and his
health My mind had dealt with the books of Zen, Tao the lessons Koran
and the Bible, to me they all vital And got truth within 'em, gotta read
them boys You just can't skim 'em, different branches of belief But one
root that stem 'em, but people of the venom try to trim 'em And use religion
as an emblem When it should be a natural way of life Who am I or they to
say to whom you pray ain't right That's who got you doin right and got you
this far Whether you say "in Jesus name" or Hum do Allah Long as you
know it's a bein' that's supreme to you You let that show towards others in
the things you do Cuz when the trumpets blowin, 24 elders surround the
throne Only 144,000 gon get home Only 144,000 gon get home Only
144,000 gon get it baby Chorus Cee-Lo: I've lived and I've learned
I have taken and I've earned I have laughed, I've cried I have
failed and I have tried Sunshine, pouring rain found joy through all my
pain I just wanna be happy with being me

Son I'm 30, I only went with mother cause she's dirty and I don't have decent bone in me. The Happy Mondays

You claimed not much of the lyrics have depth and that what I've posted are just "good". That verse is nothing special at all. It's actually not anything remotely special. If you understood the lyrics I posted (which I'm sure you don't) then you'd see why you're wrong in painting rock with one brush.

"Rock is mostly instrumental and not too much of the lyrics have depth."

Hahaha, learn something.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Not much of the lyrics in rock have depth?

Please leave the thread, learn about music then return when you have some knowledge.

-AC

How can I do that if I made the thread?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You claimed not much of the lyrics have depth and that what I've posted are just "good". That verse is nothing special at all. It's actually not anything remotely special. If you understood the lyrics I posted (which I'm sure you don't) then you'd see why you're wrong in painting rock with one brush.

"Rock is mostly instrumental and not too much of the lyrics have depth."

Hahaha, learn something.

-AC

Still not the point. Please give me a list of bands that have more literature abilities than a MC

Originally posted by Inspectah Deck
How can I do that if I made the thread?



Still not the point. Please give me a list of bands that have more literature abilities than a MC

Im not really somebody who knows rap,but from the most MC lyrics i heard,were about booty,be burnin' and Money on there mind

It is the point isn't it? You're claiming rock is mostly instrumental (how much rock are you even aware of?) and you're claiming that the lyrics don't have much depth. Which suggests that you just don't know many bands or that you do and don't have what it takes to perceive them. Why do you need a list? So you can be as ignorant as you just were and deny that they are geniuses purely because you don't get them?

If you don't understand or "get" the lyrics I've posted here, that's too bad. Don't assume they're just "good" or nothing special, that's a bit stupid.

If you don't recognise that the lyrics of Maynard James Keenan are intellectually superior then you probably don't understand what they mean. Why don't you go look at them and them come back and tell me in all seriousness why you think they're mediocre or "nothing special"? Seeing as you have the burden here.

You made the claim.

Originally posted by Otaku
Im not really somebody who knows rap,but from the most MC lyrics i heard,were about booty,be burnin' and Money on there mind

They're not but I'm curious as to how Inspectah views your comment. Because he did the exact same thing with rock.

-AC

Originally posted by Otaku
Im not really somebody who knows rap,but from the most MC lyrics i heard,were about booty,be burnin' and Money on there mind

Depends what MC you listen too

Originally posted by Inspectah Deck
Depends what MC you listen too

What rock do you listen to seeing as "most" of the lyrics don't have much depth and "most" of it is instrumental?

-AC

Originally posted by Inspectah Deck
Depends what MC you listen too

I dont.Thats why i said im not somebody who knows rap.I just hear it on the radio sometimes

You should never judge a genre by what you hear on the radio.

There's a lot of excellent hip hop out there.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You should never judge a genre by what you hear on the radio.

There's a lot of excellent hip hop out there.

-AC

I'll just take your word then.
What i do find bullcrap is that Inspectah says Rock lyrics dont have depth like rap lyrics do.Just like you said,it depends which band you listen too,just like it depends which MC you listen too.Did i just sort of contradict myself?

I'm curious as to what bands he is judging the entire genre of rock (which is bigger and more diverse than hip hop) by.

He's wrong, either way, but I'm curious.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm curious as to what bands he is judging the entire genre of rock (which is bigger and more diverse than hip hop) by.

He's wrong, either way, but I'm curious.

-AC

Probably as what i did,with rap.From what he hears on the Radio

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What rock do you listen to seeing as "most" of the lyrics don't have much depth and "most" of it is instrumental?

-AC

Not much. But saying no MC is better than Maynard is generalism. I want a list to see how many lyricists you claim are better than MC's.

Saying artist like GZA, Doom, (old) Nas, et cetera don't compare lyrically to other bands is a understatement

Originally posted by Inspectah Deck
Not much. But saying no MC is better than Maynard is generalism. I want a list to see how many lyricists you claim are better than MC's.

Saying artist like GZA, Doom, (old) Nas, et cetera don't compare lyrically to other bands is a understatement

There are enough Rock lyricists who are better thenthose rappers at lyrics,but there also are enough who aren't

Originally posted by Inspectah Deck
Not much. But saying no MC is better than Maynard is generalism. I want a list to see how many lyricists you claim are better than MC's.

Saying that there isn't much depth to rock lyrics is generalising also. Me saying that is easily debateable. I can easily make a case for Maynard being better, where as you are hanging yourself by the neck for even thinking that rock lyrics don't have depth.

As for the list: Maynard, Chris Cornell, Mike Patton, Eddie Vedder, Jason Lyttle, Jacob Bannon, Stephen Brodsky, Thom Yorke, Jerry Cantrell, Bob Dylan (I suppose), Rivers Cuomo (when he writes his best), Carley Coma etc. The list just goes on.

The difference between us is that I understand the lyrics wrote by those men, you don't. As displayed in your previous posts. I have more knowledge to debate with, you don't even listen to rock. So the chances of you having anything but a one-sided bias debate is slim.

Originally posted by Inspectah Deck
Saying artist like GZA, Doom, (old) Nas, et cetera don't compare lyrically to other bands is a understatement

Indeed, it is an understatement . We agree.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Saying that there isn't much depth to rock lyrics is generalising also. Me saying that is easily debateable. I can easily make a case for Maynard being better, where as you are hanging yourself by the neck for even thinking that rock lyrics don't have depth.

As for the list: Maynard, Chris Cornell, Mike Patton, Eddie Vedder , Jason Lyttle, Jacob Bannon, Stephen Brodsky, Thom Yorke, Jerry Cantrell etc.

The difference between us is that I understand the lyrics wrote by those men, you don't. As displayed in your previous posts.



Indeed, it is an understatement . We agree.

-AC

Ahh Pearl Jam...Jeremy has great lyrics

And so do many other PJ songs.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Saying that there isn't much depth to rock lyrics is generalising also. Me saying that is easily debateable. I can easily make a case for Maynard being better, where as you are hanging yourself by the neck for even thinking that rock lyrics don't have depth.

As for the list: Maynard, Chris Cornell, Mike Patton, Eddie Vedder, Jason Lyttle, Jacob Bannon, Stephen Brodsky, Thom Yorke, Jerry Cantrell, Bob Dylan (I suppose), Rivers Cuomo (when he writes his best), Carley Coma etc. The list just goes on.

The difference between us is that I understand the lyrics wrote by those men, you don't. As displayed in your previous posts. I have more knowledge to debate with, you don't even listen to rock. So the chances of you having anything but a one-sided bias debate is slim.

Don't jump to conclusions now. I have listened to SOAD, Slipknot, Led Zeppelin, Jet etc. From my point of view rock lyricist to have a certain degree of literature talent. I agree with you on that.

IMO Doom and Canibus use the most intersting literature devices. Just by listening to the first verse your hooked to the song. But I'm not trying to change your opinion though, just saying

And to contrast, here is my list: Aesop, GZA, RZA, Doom, Canibus, Roots, Talib Kweli, Nas, Gangstarr, Prefuse 73, El-P, Inspectah Deck, Kool Keith, Brother Ali, Common, Mos Def, Method Man, Redman(sometimes), Blacklisous, Ice Cube, Del, tc

Originally posted by Inspectah Deck
Don't jump to conclusions now. I have listened to SOAD, Slipknot, Led Zeppelin, Jet etc. From my point of view rock lyricist to have a certain degree of literature talent. I agree with you on that.

IMO Doom and Canibus use the most intersting literature devices. Just by listening to the first verse your hooked to the song. But I'm not trying to change your opinion though, just saying

Hahaha, oh dear. System of a Down and Led Zeppelin are phenomenal, Slipknot are quite good. Jet? They're a horrible band. You just named a few really well known bands, that doesn't mean you know about rock. So my jumping still stands,

Secondly, you claim rock lyricists have a certain degree of literary talent (you're not giving them enough credit due to lack of understanding and that's quite lame) but then you go and cite Canibus as someone who you believe to be excellent. He knows lots of big words and uses them to impress people who don't know any better, apparantly it works.

Originally posted by Inspectah Deck
:And to contrast, here is my list: Aesop, GZA, RZA, Doom, Canibus, Roots, Talib Kweli, Nas, Gangstarr, Prefuse 73, El-P, Inspectah Deck, Kool Keith, Brother Ali, Common, Mos Def, Method Man, Redman(sometimes), Blacklisous, Ice Cube, Del, tc

A lot of them are excellent hip hop lyricists. None of them are better than any lyricist I mentioned in terms of intellectual ability.

Ice Cube? Del? Nas? Canibus? Give me a break. Taking nothing away from a lot of those MCs but you're really in no place to be making claims. I suggest you become well versed on both areas first.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Hahaha, oh dear. System of a Down and Led Zeppelin are phenomenal, Slipknot are quite good. Jet? They're a horrible band. You just named a few really well known bands, that doesn't mean you know about rock. So my jumping still stands,

Secondly, you claim rock lyricists have a certain degree of literary talent (you're not giving them enough credit due to lack of understanding and that's quite lame) but then you go and cite Canibus as someone who you believe to be excellent. He knows lots of big words and uses them to impress people who don't know any better, apparantly it works.



A lot of them are excellent hip hop lyricists. None of them are better than any lyricist I mentioned in terms of intellectual ability.

Ice Cube? Del? Nas? Canibus? Give me a break. Taking nothing away from a lot of those MCs but you're really in no place to be making claims. I suggest you become well versed on both areas first.

-AC

To be technical, you don't have to know anything about rock to know it has good lyrics. Misunderstanding? The 3 prvious pages of the thread was of you saying Maynard is better than all MC's.

Both areas? I listen to a variety of music my friend. Like I said, don't jump to conclusions

You claimed that rock is mostly instrumental with mostly no depth to the lyrics.

This automatically suggests you are either unable to perceive complex lyrics or you don't know much about rock, which you don't by both your own admission and by actions.

-AC

Since I'm too lazy to go back and read the other pages to join the conversation I'll just name two songs that I think are awesome artistically and lyrically.

Sunday, Bloody Sunday- U2
Scientist- Coldplay

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You claimed that rock is mostly instrumental with mostly no depth to the lyrics.

This automatically suggests you are either unable to perceive complex lyrics or you don't know much about rock, which you don't by both your own admission and by actions.

-AC

Let me elaborate for you AC.

I was comparing rock to rap, if you didn't know. I said instrumental because rock is mainly focus upon the beat, bass, tempo, etc. When I said not much depth I was talking about how it doesn't give a vivid "illustration" like hip hop does

It does give a valid illustration, you obviously just don't know any good descriptive lyricists.

-AC

Really?

I think people are confusing FACTS with OPINIONS throughout this thread.

It is best if we don't confuse the two and try to respect the musical choices of others as we put forth our own arguements.

People aren't just confusing facts and opinions, they are confusing what is fact, and what is opinion.

It is opinion when it comes down to personal preference.

However, depending on the criteria, it can be factual that a certain lyric is better than another.

When people state that such comparisons aren't comparable by reference to facts, they simply mean that their standard for measurement is personal choice.

I can't say I've ever listened to Tool that much but after browsing through a couple of threads discussing them i am certainly intrigued. I read the lyrics AC posted a few pages back and while they were impressive they didnt strike me as any more powerful or potent than some of the emcees i listen to (Illogic being my favourite lyricist).
A question for you Tool fans, do you hold their lyrics in such high regard just as they are or does the way they are delivered accompanied by the music elevate them to such an elite status in your eyes? Understand i am just curious, i am not interested with entering the hip hop vs rock debate because a) i dont have the time and b) my mind wont be changed anyway. I am just curious about Tool and would like to start listening to them if they are as incredible as i have been reading.

I personally don't ever hold lyrics as high as music no matter who it is because they're not as important as the music. The only reason I've put focus on them now is because it's a debate about lyrics.

I hold Maynard's lyrics in such high regard when discussing lyricism because of a multitude of elements. Certain things he has written mean quite a lot to me but that's not why I hold them as high as I do.

The thing that makes Tool what they are isn't the lyrics, it's the music. All the music the four of them make. They're not a band you can just throw on and tap your foot to, it's an interactive process. So if you have time, patience and intelligence to go with understanding, then you'll be rewarded. If not, I suggest not trying. A lot of people haven't been able to get into them and just write them off (as Inspectah more or less did). Which is sad. Don't judge how incredible they are by what people think because the things you've read are by people who love Tool for different reasons. So just appreciate it how you want to.

The first piece of advice is to not get into them by downloading the odd song, to get everything out of them you need to be a part of the albums.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

So if you have time, patience and intelligence to go with understanding, then you'll be rewarded. If not, I suggest not trying.
-AC

When you read this, do you think this comment at all sounds pretentious?

No. Because it happens to be true.

-AC

I think I missed the joke, woe is me.

Never mind. That smiley is excellent though, hahaha. http://www.killermovies.com/forums/images/smilies/cartoon/laugh.gif Hahaha look at it. Insane.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I personally don't ever hold lyrics as high as music no matter who it is because they're not as important as the music. The only reason I've put focus on them now is because it's a debate about lyrics.

I hold Maynard's lyrics in such high regard when discussing lyricism because of a multitude of elements. Certain things he has written mean quite a lot to me but that's not why I hold them as high as I do.

The thing that makes Tool what they are isn't the lyrics, it's the music. All the music the four of them make. They're not a band you can just throw on and tap your foot to, it's an interactive process. So if you have time, patience and intelligence to go with understanding, then you'll be rewarded. If not, I suggest not trying. A lot of people haven't been able to get into them and just write them off (as Inspectah more or less did). Which is sad. Don't judge how incredible they are by what people think because the things you've read are by people who love Tool for different reasons. So just appreciate it how you want to.

The first piece of advice is to not get into them by downloading the odd song, to get everything out of them you need to be a part of the albums.

-AC

Cool, thanks. BTW i wasnt judging them by what people have been saying (i'll let my own ears do that). But if you read about a band who are as well thought of by people who seem to know what they are talking about, you (or maybe just me) are naturally curious, thats all.

Yeah, understandable. Wasn't having a go, just making suggestions.

-AC

I know man, we both obviously have a need to clarify ourselves.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
The point you are quite clearly missing is that I'm pointing out, as you already said, that the lyrics of Maynard and rock's other great lyricists are more ladvanced in the literary sense than hip hop's. I'm not trying to say hip hop's best don't have talent, I'm not claiming any less of MCs which has seem to be the misconception

Your comprehension of the term 'literary' is very narrow-minded. I suggest you breathe in and expand your lungs.

I suggest you let me worry about me and my comprehension of things. People understood the point, still do and will continue to. No point in your point.

-AC

Round 1!

Not round anything, he said something then I said something. He made a suggestion, I made a suggestion.

Never understood why people take everything to be hostile here.

-AC

Dont take it so personal man. I was just remembering the 5 page barn stormer you with Krunk'd about downloading. This could easily be the start of another (or not).

It wasn't a barn stormer about downloading. It was him not liking what I said and as a result, trolling me across the forum and my PM box.

Contrary to belief I'd rather not have that again and in all the other times I've encountered him on the forum he hasn't done it again so I'm guessing it was a one off.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Not round anything, he said something then I said something. He made a suggestion, I made a suggestion.

Never understood why people take everything to be hostile here.

-AC


OHHHHHHH, No you didn't!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It wasn't a barn stormer about downloading. It was him not liking what I said and as a result, trolling me across the forum and my PM box.

Contrary to belief I'd rather not have that again and in all the other times I've encountered him on the forum he hasn't done it again so I'm guessing it was a one off.

-AC

Thanks for clearing that up then. It just seemed like it from the outside.

Originally posted by BackFire
OHHHHHHH, No you didn't!!!!!!!

Yes, you bet I did.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well opinion can be wrong No...

I'm fully aware that you hold Maynard above any MC, what I'm still a little unclear on is whether or not you believe it's a fact. I mean in one post you'll say it's provable then you'll say its more likely to be true and then you say that you're not denying it's an opinion. Which is it?

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
No...

Yes, factually an opinion can be wrong. There's no debate on this. Opinion can be wrong, I'm sorry you feel it can't, but it can. Please don't turn into one of those people who hides behind "Oh but it's my opinion" as if it's some bulletproof shield.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
I'm fully aware that you hold Maynard above any MC, what I'm still a little unclear on is whether or not you believe it's a fact. I mean in one post you'll say it's provable then you'll say its more likely to be true and then you say that you're not denying it's an opinion. Which is it?

Why are you continually asking? I never even said it was a fact because it's always gonna be slightly subjective. I do believe it's as close to fact as you can get while being subjective though. I don't believe anyone who appreciates lyricism, REGARDLESS OF PREFERENCE, can look at Maynard's lyrics and claim that a hip hop MC has produced more intellectual/intelligent lyrics. It's not something I can prove but I can't prove that Britney Spears is shit either, see where I'm going?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Yes, factually an opinion can be wrong. There's no debate on this. Opinion can be wrong, I'm sorry you feel it can't, but it can. Please don't turn into one of those people who hides behind "Oh but it's my opinion" as if it's some bulletproof shield. Come on.. you're a smart guy.. you can't see the contradiciton in an opinion being wrong?



Well you did say it was provable... and you can't prove a "slightly subjective opinion that's really close to being a fact."

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Come on.. you're a smart guy.. you can't see the contradiciton in an opinion being wrong?

No, because there isn't one. An opinion is a belief upheld with confidence. Anything believed with confidence is an opinion. People believed with confidence that the Earth was flat. It was their opinion, they were wrong. Opinions can be wrong, I'm not going to sit here trying to cure your confusion as to why they can be, but they can be.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Well you did say it was provable... and you can't prove a "slightly subjective opinion that's really close to being a fact."

Well as it's been stated above, subjectively I can't. Under certain criteria lyrics can be proven to be better than another.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
No, because there isn't one. An opinion is a belief upheld with confidence. Anything believed with confidence is an opinion. People believed with confidence that the Earth was flat. It was their opinion, they were wrong. Opinions can be wrong, I'm not going to sit here trying to cure your confusion as to why they can be, but they can be.
But that's not an opinion, it's a fact. The fact that they had their facts wrong back then doesn't mean an opinion can be wrong. There's a difference between a false fact and an opinion.

Once something is factually "right" or "wrong" it's not an opinion, it's a fact.
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Well as it's been stated above, subjectively I can't. Under certain criteria lyrics can be proven to be better than another.

-AC Eh.. I'm not denying this but I would like to see at least one example where one lyric beats another factually in a certain criteria. Just to see where you're coming from.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
But that's not an opinion, it's a fact. The fact that they had their facts wrong back then doesn't mean an opinion can be wrong. There's a difference between a false fact and an opinion.

No you're wrong. Back then, nobody knew. They believed with confidence that the Earth was flat and nobody could prove it wrong or right. It was their opinion, it was proven wrong. NOW it's a fact, THEN it was still round but nobody knew, and people believed with confidence that it was flat. It was a wrong opinion. An opinion proven wrong. Because? Opinion can be wrong. I've gone over this and proven it to about seven different people in the music forum, with about five others who know that opinion can be wrong. Whether you agree or not, it doesn't matter. Anything believed with confidence that isn't yet proven to be a fact, is an opinion. That's what their's was, an opinion and as you said, once it was proven to be a fact, it was no longer an opinion. Their opinion was proven wrong by fact. Opinion can be wrong. You can't grasp or accept this, it's not my problem.

Originally posted by Afro Cheese
Eh.. I'm not denying this but I would like to see at least one example where one lyric beats another factually in a certain criteria. Just to see where you're coming from.

Intelligence/intellectual subjects, innovative/uniqueness.

No hip hop MC has done anything as intelligent with lyrics or on subjects as Maynard has. Proof? Read the lyrics I posted and then tell me that any MC has equalled or bettered that in terms of intelligence. You can't, because there hasn't been any. Assuming you know what they're referring to.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It wasn't a barn stormer about downloading. It was him not liking what I said and as a result, trolling me across the forum and my PM box.

Contrary to belief I'd rather not have that again and in all the other times I've encountered him on the forum he hasn't done it again so I'm guessing it was a one off.

-AC

This is more than a little off-topic, but I feel I should enlighten you again. I responded to your post about 'why would anyone skip a track on an album' and your waffer-thin skin came out in pimples. Also, I never PM'd you about it, so stick the facts, Batman.

It never happened again - 'til now (oh, the irony!) - because I had no interest in debating with someone who resorts to playground retorts along the line of "Waaah, you started it!".

So, my new suggestion to you is...Goo-goo-goo-ga-gaaa-ge-gaaa - Yep, now I'm speaking your language! Better? That's good.

I think that music and literature are very close. It's much more pleasant to listen to songs which contain poetry.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
This is more than a little off-topic, but I feel I should enlighten you again. I responded to your post about 'why would anyone skip a track on an album' and your waffer-thin skin came out in pimples. Also, I never PM'd you about it, so stick the facts, Batman.

It never happened again - 'til now (oh, the irony!) - because I had no interest in debating with someone who resorts to playground retorts along the line of "Waaah, you started it!".

So, my new suggestion to you is...Goo-goo-goo-ga-gaaa-ge-gaaa - Yep, now I'm speaking your language! Better? That's good.

So you want me to stop doing what you are doing? How does that work, Robin? No, wait...don't worry. The very fact that you were acting like a complete child (and still are) is astounding.

You can sit there and lie through your back teeth all you want. It doesn't matter to me. You let a passing comment get you riled up.

-AC

I'm older than you, Poppy. I'm not 'riled-up', but rather mildly amused by your bloated posturing. I've no problem with a display of 'confidence', but that's not the name we give it when it's coupled with ignorance.

I find it rather amusing that you say I am lying. I'm sure in one of your sweet, sweet dreams I'm sending you PM after PM after PM, but in the real world of man-made things it ain't much more than a willow in the whisp.

I'd be angry, if I didn't pity you.

"All the world's a stage, now watch me prance like a spring deer"

-Shakesheadspeare

Back to the topic...The quality of 'literature' is not subjected to tests in regards to how many words are used on a page, but rather the vividness of the descriptions and the evocative emotions it can arouse. The same applies to music.

Lesson over, take a break.

I wish all lessons were that switft.

*takes break*

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
I'm older than you, Poppy. I'm not 'riled-up', but rather mildly amused by your bloated posturing. I've no problem with a display of 'confidence', but that's not the name we give it when it's coupled with ignorance.

I find it rather amusing that you say I am lying. I'm sure in one of your sweet, sweet dreams I'm sending you PM after PM after PM, but in the real world of man-made things it ain't much more than a willow in the whisp.

I'd be angry, if I didn't pity you.

"All the world's a stage, now watch me prance like a spring deer"

-Shakesheadspeare

Funny how you opened it with "I'm older than you, Poppy." If I were presumptuous I'd say that you're just bitten by the fact that I'm younger, not that you're older. Luckily for us, I'm not. I'm also not here to get into a "fight" with anyone, which is less than I can say for someone who is known to troll certain members across the forum because they are at a disliking for what someone has said (Lest we forget your temper tantrum after you didn't like what I said. Which, ironically, ended with you completely cocking up your definitions of a word and looking completely silly for trying to weasel out of it).

Anyway, as you said, on topic:

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Back to the topic...The quality of 'literature' is not subjected to tests in regards to how many words are used on a page, but rather the vividness of the descriptions and the evocative emotions it can arouse. The same applies to music.

Lesson over, take a break.

Right, the vividness of description and evocative emotions is exactly right. Which is why I've said to Afro Cheese that I'm not about to claim I can prove something that really amounts to being different strokes etc. I was asked for criteria, incase you missed it. The criteria I put forth was intelligence through lyricism. In this case? Lyrical content. I never stated there was anything wrong with anyone preferring lyrics over lyrics I like, it's what makes the world rotate. I was putting forth the claim and question that no hip hop MC had produced (or was/is capable of producing) lyrics equalling or surpassing the intellectual content of Maynard James Keenan.

So why you went all Whitney Houston on me is a question even I can't answer. Maybe you'd consider giving me a lesson on how to be a complete diva, seeing as you're in the trade and all.

-AC

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
So, my new suggestion to you is...Goo-goo-goo-ga-gaaa-ge-gaaa - Yep, now I'm speaking your language! Better? That's good.

(Because it was supposed to sound like baby talk)

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Funny how you opened it with "I'm older than you, Poppy." If I were presumptuous I'd say that you're just bitten by the fact that I'm younger, not that you're older. Luckily for us, I'm not. I'm also not here to get into a "fight" with anyone, which is less than I can say for someone who is known to troll certain members across the forum because they are at a disliking for what someone has said (Lest we forget your temper tantrum after you didn't like what I said. Which, ironically, ended with you completely cocking up your definitions of a word and looking completely silly for trying to weasel out of it).

Although my words are beautiful, sometimes it is better to use another's...

"Blessed is the man who, having nothing to stay, abstains from giving us worthy evidence of the fact."

If only you had followed dear ol' George Eliot's advice.

Oh, yeah...We were just getting back on topic weren't we, Poppy...



I have another lesson for you. This one is more of a journey of self-discovery. Try reading your post again and see if you can point out the contradictions.



Something about Mariah calling Whitney an over-the-top performer...

Finally, I'm pleased to see that you have realised the error of your ways and acknowledged that I have never touched your PM box - unless, of course, you're getting your acronyms mixed-up and you actually mean 'Mussy Puff', in which case, I've flicked a few...

'Oh You Tea' spells...

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
I have another lesson for you. This one is more of a journey of self-discovery. Try reading your post again and see if you can point out the contradictions.

I didn't contradict myself, unless of course you are implying that intelligent lyrical content is still subjective.

If someone in this thread can prove that there's a hip hop MC capable of producing more intellectual and intelligent lyrics, I'm here ready to read them and ready to admit such. It hasn't happened, so I can't do that. Nor do I believe it will.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
...Says Mariah.

Finally, I'm pleased to see that you have realised the error of your ways and acknowledged that I have never touched your PM box - unless you're getting your acronyms mixed-up and you actually mean 'Mussy Puff', in which case, I've flicked a few...

'Oh You Tea' spells...

(Haha, cos she's a singer also. Quite slick.)

I don't have the PM anymore so admittedly I can't prove you did it, but you did. You know you did, I know you did. If you are trying to convince yourself you didn't do it, fine with me. I won't sit here saying "You did, you did, you did" because I can't prove you did. It's my word vs yours and I have absolutely no reason at all to lie. Also, given that a good number of people (your supposed evidence of the fact) saw you do what you did, I don't think I have to convince anyone. I'm done with this part of the conversation as a result. Don't bring up maturity if you act like a 10 year old.

-AC

Once again AC doesn't fail to entertain. Another member, another lively debate. Thanks for the laughs my friend.

You're welcome, my friend.

-AC

I was being sarcastic, but thanx anyway.

These are some of my favorite lyrics by Illogic that i think stand up to some of the Rock ones posted earlier, the song is called Hate in a puddle and its about the artists own self loathing:

I hate when it rains, cause in puddles I encounter this guy
Unable to give a rebuttal but swift as the pain flood his eyes
wonderin why he's a gift with no purpose
A priceless one-of-a-kind piece that's worthless
Grounded with no surface
And when he shows one, it's a facade
Cause inside he fights feelings that he was mistake by God
I see his confusion and self-deception
Questions of relevance and intelligence
He holds an illusion of self-acceptance
that he shows to those outside lookin in
He's outside lookin in to his own life; lookin for strength
to carry on as a pawn in this chess game of existance
In his mind he wants to go on to the dawn
and leave the stress that came with existance
Hopin in death he'll find life
Cause as he lives, he roams the dark, tryin to find light
He's made his heart so hard, he doesn't even cry anymore
Cause he's confronted sorrow frequently
His heart's been broken frequently
It's like he's lost some part of him and just haven't found it yet
So in his search, he's left with nothin but questions and regret
All he wants to know is how one day, he's content
and the next day he's cryin
cause his life isn't what he thought life meant
He just wants to be happy, with his love and all
But too often I get messages through telepathic calls
He's askin me through a puddle what more must he endure to continue
But for some reason he knows he most endure to continue



When I walk past puddles, my reflection calls beggin me
to answer his questions about life and his perceptions
and tell him why I hate him so much
And you wonder why I hate him so much?
Now when I walk past puddles, my reflection calls beggin me
to answer his questions about life, and his perceptions
and tell him why I hate him so much
Damn, I wonder why I hate him so much


Why did I hate him so much?I wondered, pondered on the question
What in my mind caused me to despise my reflection?
I didn't know I just knew when I saw him, how I felt
and hated the fact that he had to play with the cards that he was dealt
He's come in contact with some ill things that can't be explained
Life's extracted his energy to where the pain can't be contained
So to me he comes, sheddin tears like skin
Intimate with some, only the ones he calls friends
If he even exists, he only exists in pain
It's like his life is a myth
and he's been blessed with the gift of shame, I mean
From birth to love he's been betrayed
He's an unknown in how to cope with that pain and dissapointment
he's come to know as he's grown
He feels he stands alone in this world of puddle images
And he awaits the time for when, time finishes
He tries to elevate thought, but he's still chillin in the basement
Awaitin a rebirth of his soul as it fears it's spiritual placement




God I pray you can give me a purpose or help me find it
Cause on this narrow path of self-damnation, I can't find it
Is it somethin I need to know, some way I need to grow
to get out of this rut, God give me some self-trust
Love is somethin I'm lookin for but I've found it, or have I?
I wanna live but can I, or do I have to die to?
I try to, have life but my life seems kinda worthless
as I'm starin at this puddle
God I pray that you can give me a purpose or help me find it
Cause on this narrow path of self-damnation, I can't find it
Is it somethin I need to know, some way I need to grow
to get out of this rut, God please give me some self-trust
Love is somethin I'm lookin for - thought I found it, or have I?
I wanna live but can I, or do I have to die to?
I try to, have life but my life seems kinda worthless
as I'm starin in this puddle




I sit alone in dismal silence
Peering into the eyes of my reflection
Wondering if his thoughts are adjacent to my own
What visions of eerie savagery
are passing if purity lurks in the mind of he who I mirror?
Lookin at him I am disgusted
He lacks beauty in all external areas
and internally he seems so confused
Perplexed with this conundrum of life
He proceeds to function or cope, lookin at it realistically
Esteem he lacks, in all areas of existance
Reason unknown
What is the cause of the lack of this self-acceptance?
I mean it seems like he needs constant assurance
Some type of ritual proof that he's even worth the oxygen he breathes
A, light that shines upon him
Is his living in vein?Does he have a purpose?
Answer - eternally unknown

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I didn't contradict myself, unless of course you are implying that intelligent lyrical content is still subjective.

I feel awkward taking you seriously, but I will indulge you here...Comparing the 'intelligent lyrical content' of two songs from different genres is like comparing an orange to furry, little animal who hops on two legs. What I have just done is demonstrate an exercise in futility; I don't expect you to understand the concept, but I have attempted to explain it to you none-the-less...

I'd hate this delightful thread to degenerate into name calling, but I feel that I should acknowledge this post in light of your accusations of 'immaturity':

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
If someone in this thread can prove that there's a hip hop MC capable of producing more intellectual and intelligent lyrics, I'm here ready to read them and ready to admit such. It hasn't happened, so I can't do that. Nor do I believe it will.

If you don't get what I'm saying, then the demonstration is reinforced. Thanks for your support.

NEXT!

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
(Haha, cos she's a singer also. Quite slick.)

I'm honored that it tickled you, but you should have waited for the edited version. I feel it's funnier and a little more sophisticated. I'd love to read your thoughts...

Now for the big doo-doo from you-you-you...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I don't have the PM anymore so admittedly I can't prove you did it, but you did. You know you did, I know you did. If you are trying to convince yourself you didn't do it, fine with me. I won't sit here saying "You did, you did, you did" because I can't prove you did. It's my word vs yours and I have absolutely no reason at all to lie. Also, given that a good number of people (your supposed evidence of the fact) saw you do what you did, I don't think I have to convince anyone. I'm done with this part of the conversation as a result. Don't bring up maturity if you act like a 10 year old.

Wow. Sometimes, I can't work out if you are a real live boy or a fantastic fallacy fountain. Although, considering the garbage you spew, perhaps the sobriquet 'Muck-Spreader' would be more appropriate.

Either way, I like your work. It's like a teenage angst case-study for all the net to see.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
I feel awkward taking you seriously, but I will indulge you here...Comparing the 'intelligent lyrical content' of two songs from different genres is like comparing an orange to furry, little animal who hops on two legs. What I have just done is demonstrate an exercise in futility; I don't expect you to understand the concept, but I have attempted to explain it to you none-the-less...

It's not like comparing those two things is it? Where did you get that from? By your rationale you can't compare a karate expert and a boxing expert? They're both fighting styles.

It's quite obvious that talking about certain subjects requires more intelligence than it does for others, right? I mean surely a smart guy like yourself knows that you can't pull your average joe off the street and discuss alternative universes and the nature of infinity. So let's say Maynard writes about the possibilities of humans being eternal in spirit, humanity as a singular consciousness experiencing itself subjectively or the process of evolution through jungian theory and other such caper, right? (Which he does, to name but a few simpler subjects). You'd be willing to tell me that it's irrelevant to try and compare that level of lyrical intelligence to that of any hip hop MC? I find it hard to believe that you believe that.

Koolrunningz, those lyrics are astounding for the most part. In terms of hip hop lyricism. However, all it really boils down to is a guy trying to find meaning with his life. It's nothing a thousand other MCs haven't done. Worse? Sure, but still done.

-AC

Originally posted by KharmaDog
Once again AC doesn't fail to entertain. Another member, another lively debate. Thanks for the laughs my friend.

Yes. Quite a talkative character he is yawn

All this talk of intelligence in lyrics and literary devices,

---------------
AC - My artist is more intelligent than yours
blah blah blah
----------------

You guys are forgeting one thing. "The Hook"

And for me,atleast for right now, my favorite hook is

"Turn off the lights, light a candle"

Ofcourse this could be related to the mood I'm in now

Originally posted by jerlark386
All this talk of intelligence in lyrics and literary devices,

---------------
AC - My artist is more intelligent than yours
blah blah blah
----------------

You guys are forgeting one thing. "The Hook"

And for me,atleast for right now, my favorite hook is

"Turn off the lights, light a candle"

Ofcourse this could be related to the mood I'm in now

"I'm On It"

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It's not like comparing those two things is it? Where did you get that from? By your rationale you can't compare a karate expert and a boxing expert? They're both fighting styles.

It's quite obvious that talking about certain subjects requires more intelligence than it does for others, right? I mean surely a smart guy like yourself knows that you can't pull your average joe off the street and discuss alternative universes and the nature of infinity. So let's say Maynard writes about the possibilities of humans being eternal in spirit, humanity as a singular consciousness experiencing itself subjectively or the process of evolution through jungian theory and other such caper, right? (Which he does, to name but a few simpler subjects). You'd be willing to tell me that it's irrelevant to try and compare that level of lyrical intelligence to that of any hip hop MC? I find it hard to believe that you believe that.

Of course, you can compare the 'literary intelligence' of different genres, but it's a futile exercise as each example is ultimately representative to its own genre. There is simply no point in trying to argue that a lyric from a prog-rock group is superior to that of a ghetto-supastar. They are both born into the circle they live in.

Ya catch ma fire?

Originally posted by koolruningz
These are some of my favorite lyrics by Illogic that i think stand up to some of the Rock ones posted earlier, the song is called Hate in a puddle and its about the artists own self loathing:

I hate when it rains, cause in puddles I encounter this guy
Unable to give a rebuttal but swift as the pain flood his eyes
wonderin why he's a gift with no purpose
A priceless one-of-a-kind piece that's worthless
Grounded with no surface
And when he shows one, it's a facade
Cause inside he fights feelings that he was mistake by God
I see his confusion and self-deception
Questions of relevance and intelligence
He holds an illusion of self-acceptance
that he shows to those outside lookin in
He's outside lookin in to his own life; lookin for strength
to carry on as a pawn in this chess game of existance
In his mind he wants to go on to the dawn
and leave the stress that came with existance
Hopin in death he'll find life
Cause as he lives, he roams the dark, tryin to find light
He's made his heart so hard, he doesn't even cry anymore
Cause he's confronted sorrow frequently
His heart's been broken frequently
It's like he's lost some part of him and just haven't found it yet
So in his search, he's left with nothin but questions and regret
All he wants to know is how one day, he's content
and the next day he's cryin
cause his life isn't what he thought life meant
He just wants to be happy, with his love and all
But too often I get messages through telepathic calls
He's askin me through a puddle what more must he endure to continue
But for some reason he knows he most endure to continue



When I walk past puddles, my reflection calls beggin me
to answer his questions about life and his perceptions
and tell him why I hate him so much
And you wonder why I hate him so much?
Now when I walk past puddles, my reflection calls beggin me
to answer his questions about life, and his perceptions
and tell him why I hate him so much
Damn, I wonder why I hate him so much


Why did I hate him so much?I wondered, pondered on the question
What in my mind caused me to despise my reflection?
I didn't know I just knew when I saw him, how I felt
and hated the fact that he had to play with the cards that he was dealt
He's come in contact with some ill things that can't be explained
Life's extracted his energy to where the pain can't be contained
So to me he comes, sheddin tears like skin
Intimate with some, only the ones he calls friends
If he even exists, he only exists in pain
It's like his life is a myth
and he's been blessed with the gift of shame, I mean
From birth to love he's been betrayed
He's an unknown in how to cope with that pain and dissapointment
he's come to know as he's grown
He feels he stands alone in this world of puddle images
And he awaits the time for when, time finishes
He tries to elevate thought, but he's still chillin in the basement
Awaitin a rebirth of his soul as it fears it's spiritual placement




God I pray you can give me a purpose or help me find it
Cause on this narrow path of self-damnation, I can't find it
Is it somethin I need to know, some way I need to grow
to get out of this rut, God give me some self-trust
Love is somethin I'm lookin for but I've found it, or have I?
I wanna live but can I, or do I have to die to?
I try to, have life but my life seems kinda worthless
as I'm starin at this puddle
God I pray that you can give me a purpose or help me find it
Cause on this narrow path of self-damnation, I can't find it
Is it somethin I need to know, some way I need to grow
to get out of this rut, God please give me some self-trust
Love is somethin I'm lookin for - thought I found it, or have I?
I wanna live but can I, or do I have to die to?
I try to, have life but my life seems kinda worthless
as I'm starin in this puddle




I sit alone in dismal silence
Peering into the eyes of my reflection
Wondering if his thoughts are adjacent to my own
What visions of eerie savagery
are passing if purity lurks in the mind of he who I mirror?
Lookin at him I am disgusted
He lacks beauty in all external areas
and internally he seems so confused
Perplexed with this conundrum of life
He proceeds to function or cope, lookin at it realistically
Esteem he lacks, in all areas of existance
Reason unknown
What is the cause of the lack of this self-acceptance?
I mean it seems like he needs constant assurance
Some type of ritual proof that he's even worth the oxygen he breathes
A, light that shines upon him
Is his living in vein?Does he have a purpose?
Answer - eternally unknown

i was gonna post this.

Originally posted by Dr. Octagon
i was gonna post this.

Great minds think alike my friend.

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
Of course, you can compare the 'literary intelligence' of different genres, but it's a futile exercise as each example is ultimately representative to its own genre. There is simply no point in trying to argue that a lyric from a prog-rock group is superior to that of a ghetto-supastar. They are both born into the circle they live in.

Ya catch ma fire?

Yes, I never missed.......ya fahre.

It depends one why you're arguing superiority doesn't it? My point was that I don't believe there's ever been a hip hop artist (no disrespect to hip hop, because I love it too) who can match lyrics like that. Not do I believe there will be, just because of the nature of the genre. Hip hop, despite being focused on lyricism, is more limited than rock lyricism. Eg: It has to rhyme for the most part. Has to go to a beat.

-AC

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo


Wow. Sometimes, I can't work out if you are a real live boy or a fantastic fallacy fountain. Although, considering the garbage you spew, perhaps the sobriquet 'Muck-Spreader' would be more appropriate.

Either way, I like your work. It's like a teenage angst case-study for all the net to see.

Quite humourous: 8 on ten.

He may want to be camp but he wants that to be HIS decision. He uses NME-isms as a breakwater.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It depends one why you're arguing superiority doesn't it? My point was that I don't believe there's ever been a hip hop artist (no disrespect to hip hop, because I love it too) who can match lyrics like that. Not do I believe there will be, just because of the nature of the genre. Hip hop, despite being focused on lyricism, is more limited than rock lyricism. Eg: It has to rhyme for the most part. Has to go to a beat.

I don't limit the accolade of being 'intelligent' to those who consider the stars. There's intelligence to be found in the hip-hop artist's appreciation of the street life. Just because one is going galactic and the other is positively grounded, doesn't mean that they both can't be appreciated as being equally intelligent.

It may seem that I am straying slightly from the 'literature in music' debate, but I feel the same sentiments can be applied. As I stated before, the term 'literature' can be applied to any form of creative writing. The key here then is 'creativity'. I feel that good hip-hop artists show - in their lyrical dexterity - an equal amount of creativity to that found in the philosophical musings of bands like Tool.

This is why I think it is futile to compare levels of 'intelligence'.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He may want to be camp but he wants that to be HIS decision. He uses NME-isms as a breakwater.

"Man, I don't know what the fuuck you just said, little kid, but you special, man."

Originally posted by Ya Krunk'd Floo
"Man, I don't know what the fuuck you just said, little kid, but you special, man."

It's a TV show phrase.

Well no band has lyrics like Tool, nor are there bands like Tool, though that's a whole other debate.

The key is only creativity if that's what you're looking for. You're making new points that I haven't even delved into. The whole reason I am involved in this debate is because I don't believe that, when it comes down to intelligence, Maynard James Keenan has produced far greater lyrics than any hip hop artists ever. Reason being that it takes a greater mind to have those philosophical musings than it does to talk about streetlife. Streetlife is mainly based off experience, the subject matter in Tool songs are mainly to do with that which isn't as readily accessible. Anybody with the right application of skill, has a personal life to rhyme about. Not everybody could write a Tool song, because not everybody is smart enough to understand what's being discussed.

-AC

Again, you are suffering from an inability to expand your conception of the essence of intelligence...

No, I'm not. You're just once again failing to comprehend that someone thinks differently from you as encountered before.

And as before, it's not my problem.

-AC