Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

America's Number One Son vs the Beast from Bavaria! *Trumpeting and catcalls here*

If Kurt tries to grab Steve and teleport skywards, Cap can use his shield to absorb the fall's impact. So what else can Kurt do?

[

Cap wins.

Damn, I thought we'd reached an impasse in the Cyclops thread, but it looks like the other two amscrayed.... =(

Nightcrawler will win this. He's not some untrained teleporter like he used to be. He knows what the hell he's doing.

There are so many ways Kurt can win.

He can:
1. Take away the shield (I dare someone to say he can't) and then pummel Cap
2. Just plan pummel Cap where his shield isn't
3. The whole teleporting limbs thing
4. Teleport Cap into a vat of acid or something, I dunno

Kurt has too many options.

Ahah, I knew someone would show up. =D

So,

How in the hell can Kurt even touch a guy who's peak human in every physical attribute? >[

Originally posted by Piedmon
Ahah, I knew someone would show up. =D

So,

How in the hell can Kurt even touch a guy who's peak human in every physical attribute? >

Taken on account Kurt's intensive training, I doubt that he is so much behind Cap in physical attributes.

What's Kurt going to do, knock him out with that famous right hook? He's nowhere near peak human strength level, and while he might be able to keep up with Cap in agility, he doesn't have the endurance or muscle power to win in a h2h fight.

Originally posted by Piedmon
What's Kurt going to do, knock him out with that famous right hook? He's nowhere near peak human strength level, and while he might be able to keep up with Cap in agility, he doesn't have the endurance or muscle power to win in a h2h fight.

But he could grab him with his tail, which is strong enough to throw an grown man in the air.

That makes it one strong limb versus five (Cap's head could legally be considered a lethal weapon in many circles.)

Originally posted by Piedmon
Ahah, I knew someone would show up. =D

So,

How in the hell can Kurt even touch a guy who's peak human in every physical attribute? >

Did you not just read my post?

Kurt has too many options at his disposal. He doesn't necessarily need to "right hook" Cap to death.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Did you not just read my post?

Kurt has too many options at his disposal. He doesn't necessarily need to "right hook" Cap to death.

sounds right, i'll let you do the fighting for me, metalmanx

Do you guys remember that Captain America has no spider-sense or any sense of premonition? He cannot guess where Nightcrawler will pop up, THEREFORE, Nightcrawler will teleport, wait a second, pop up next to him, and teleport him somewhere that he doesn't want to be, ie, several stories up, directly in front of a giant fan, hanging over the grand canyon with only an umbrella, or any other funny situation.

Nightcrawler easily wins.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Nightcrawler will win this. He's not some untrained teleporter like he used to be. He knows what the hell he's doing.

There are so many ways Kurt can win.

He can:
1. Take away the shield (I dare someone to say he can't) and then pummel Cap

Of course he can't. That shield is an edged weapon wielded by a master. What you're saying is that an unarmed man can defeat an armed man by just taking his weapon away..... if Nightcrawler reaches for it, he's going to have to place himself right in front of Cap, and he's going to get his skull bashed the **** in.




This is especially absurd. Kurt's got a better chance of breaking his hand on Cap's armor than hurting him. If he tries to grip Cap with his tail, than he just made the fatal mistake of CONNECTING HIMSELF to Cap, for however brief a moment. A moment is all Cap needs to break Nightcrawler's skull like cheap china.



Splendiferous bullshit. 616 Nightcrawler's never been able to do that to organic opponents, only to machines. We KNOW the AoA versions of the X-Men were actually better with their powers than the "mainstream," versions, because they'd had to fight their entire lives.

If an AU version of a character, who is KNOWN to be better at using his powers, preforms a feat that we have NEVER seen from the mainstream version (in this case, teleporting away organic body parts), then all Aristotlean logic used as the basis of rational thought for the last 2,000 years STRONGLY INDICATES the "mainstream" version can't.



This is on a neutral battlefield. There are no vats of lava or giant whirlblades. Nightcrawler can only teleport to a place he can see, anyway, or else he risks teleporting his foot inside a table or something.



Kurt's got nothing.

Originally posted by Piedmon
Of course he can't. That shield is an edged weapon wielded by a master. What you're saying is that an unarmed man can defeat an armed man by just taking his weapon away..... if Nightcrawler reaches for it, he's going to have to place himself right in front of Cap, and he's going to get his skull bashed the **** in.Nightcrawler is running towards Cap? He's there and gone with the shield faster than you can say BAMF.
Originally posted by Piedmon
This is especially absurd. Kurt's got a better chance of breaking his hand on Cap's armor than hurting him. If he tries to grip Cap with his tail, than he just made the fatal mistake of CONNECTING HIMSELF to Cap, for however brief a moment. A moment is all Cap needs to break Nightcrawler's skull like cheap china.Read above and replace "shield" with "armour". Captain America is now shieldless and armourless.
Originally posted by Piedmon
Splendiferous bullshit. 616 Nightcrawler's never been able to do that to organic opponents, only to machines. We KNOW the AoA versions of the X-Men were actually better with their powers than the "mainstream," versions, because they'd had to fight their entire lives.

If an AU version of a character, who is KNOWN to be better at using his powers, preforms a feat that we have NEVER seen from the mainstream version (in this case, teleporting away organic body parts), then all Aristotlean logic used as the basis of rational thought for the last 2,000 years STRONGLY INDICATES the "mainstream" version can't.Which AoA characters were so much stronger than their 616 counterparts? You speculate that AoA Nightcrawler is more powerful than 616 because he chooses to limit the amount of additional mass he takes with him in a port? Nightcrawler always chooses what additional mass he takes with him. He regularly does so. The difference between AoA and 616 is that AoA had no qualms about killing. Unless CIS is on, teleporting parts of things and people is a viable option.

kurt has more agility then captain america. but I still think captain winns. also kurt form normal unverse does not know how to teleport body parts off people. any ways it does not work on some people

...What the hell makes him unable to teleport limbs off? It's just as easy as teleporting himself or someone else. He chooses what mass he takes with it. He can easily take off Cap's right arm, then his left, and then his head.

Easily.

And the shield and armor thing...well...Xmarks already took care of that now, didn't he?

has he ever done ti befor becaus im pritty sure he need a little practice. also if night crawler cna just teleport any ones arm or head off that would mean he could beat any one which in AoA he cant so he must have some limitaions.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Nightcrawler is running towards Cap? He's there and gone with the shield faster than you can say BAMF.

Cap's not just some bruiser. All of his physical attributes--strength, speed, stamina, agility--have been upgraded to HUMAN MAX.

Nightcrawler's speed and agility do not come from Mutant Power. They come from his training in the Bavarian circus. His acrobatics, coordination, agility--it's the product of sheer hard work, as has been noted in the pages of Excalibur issues that I own.

Let's take a look at what Marvel Directory has to say:



Hey, can someone remind me what it says in just about every single issue of Captain America, ever? Oh yeah.... SUPERIOR TO ANY OLYMPIC ATHLETE WHO EVER PREFORMED. Sans teleportation, Nightcrawler is by no means faster than Cap. Teleportation is the only way he can keep up. If he tries to remain in one place long enough to grab the shield, he's going to get knocked and rocked before he can react.



OK, now you're just being silly. Do you really think Nightcrawler can put his hands, feet, or tail on Captain America's chest or back too fast for Cap to reach out and touch him in return? Even if you put Nightcrawler at MAX HUMAN agility, which I doubt he is, that just makes their speeds comparable. Again, if Nightcrawler tries to just grab any part of Cap, Steve will reach around and slap him upside the head so hard he gets brain trauma.



Iceman was practically a metamorph, without any 2ndary mutation. Dazzler was making hard light holograms so convincing, she was a walking danger room. Gambit killed Colossus with one card. Magneto RIPPED APOCALYPSE APART. The AoA universe was topsy-turvy PL-wise compared to 616, you can't use one to support an argument for the other!



It's speculation the way Evolution and Gravity are theories. The fact that AoA Nightcrawler can choose to limit that amount shows he has greater CONTROL over his powers.

As for killing.... do you think Nightcrawler wasn't trying to kill Azazel? Or Belasco? There have been several times throughout the X-continuity when he was enraged enough to kill, or felt lethal force was necessary, and he NEVER DID IT.

www.marvel.com

actauly is agility does come from his muntant ability and is probly one of the clossest to spidermans agility

Originally posted by Piedmon
Cap's not just some bruiser. All of his physical attributes--strength, speed, stamina, agility--have been upgraded to HUMAN MAX.
Nightcrawler's speed and agility do not come from Mutant Power. They come from his training in the Bavarian circus. His acrobatics, coordination, agility--it's the product of sheer hard work, as has been noted in the pages of Excalibur issues that I own.It's enhanced beyond that of an olympic athlete due to his mutant anatomy. Nightcrawler's agility honed to it's peak is higher than that possible for an normal human.
Originally posted by Piedmon
Hey, can someone remind me what it says in just about every single issue of Captain America, ever? Oh yeah.... SUPERIOR TO ANY OLYMPIC ATHLETE WHO EVER PREFORMED. Sans teleportation, Nightcrawler is by no means faster than Cap. Teleportation is the only way he can keep up. If he tries to remain in one place long enough to grab the shield, he's going to get knocked and rocked before he can react.Originally posted by Piedmon
OK, now you're just being silly. Do you really think Nightcrawler can put his hands, feet, or tail on Captain America's chest or back too fast for Cap to reach out and touch him in return? Even if you put Nightcrawler at MAX HUMAN agility, which I doubt he is, that just makes their speeds comparable. Again, if Nightcrawler tries to just grab any part of Cap, Steve will reach around and slap him upside the head so hard he gets brain trauma.Nightcrawler can appear and disappear in milliseconds. Captain America isn't a precog.
Originally posted by Piedmon
Iceman was practically a metamorph, without any 2ndary mutation. Dazzler was making hard light holograms so convincing, she was a walking danger room. Gambit killed Colossus with one card. Magneto RIPPED APOCALYPSE APART. The AoA universe was topsy-turvy PL-wise compared to 616, you can't use one to support an argument for the other! Magneto was less powerful in AoA.
Originally posted by Piedmon
It's speculation the way Evolution and Gravity are theories. The fact that AoA Nightcrawler can choose to limit that amount shows he has greater CONTROL over his powers.Because he never limits what he teleports with him? Oh wait he has in fact he does it all the time. If he stands on a table he doesn't have to teleport the table with him. If someone holds him he can teleport himself and his clothing without teleporting the person. Parts of things? He teleported part of Nimrod.
Originally posted by Piedmon
As for killing.... do you think Nightcrawler wasn't trying to kill Azazel? Or Belasco? There have been several times throughout the X-continuity when he was enraged enough to kill, or felt lethal force was necessary, and he NEVER DID IT.Last I recall killing is anathema to NC.

thou night crawler can be hit well teleporting. wolverine played tag with night crawler many tiems and show that now if night crawler ever atatcked him he coudl deffently get him rather easly. but thing is wolverien did get night crawler the first tiem but took a little while so captain first time would take a while for him to if he even could get night crawler and also will captain suurvive that long. I say yes

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
It's enhanced beyond that of an olympic athlete due to his mutant anatomy. Nightcrawler's agility honed to it's peak is higher than that possible for an normal human.

I have a site and issues to back up my statement. The burden of proof is on you.



It takes longer than milliseconds for him to reach out his arm, though. If Nightcrawler just wants to noncommitally dance around Cap, he can probably do that all day. It's when he tries to move in for the strike that Cap (who is a master of Judo, a defensive style, btw) would take him out.



Bull hockey. 616 Magneto sucks 616 Apoc's blue metal cock.



An inert slab of wood and living tissue aren't the same.



Nimrod is a robot. He's not held together by a living will. He was put together from seperate components. A human being is one package, all the organs grew together from the original zygote. In the world of comic pseudoscience, that would be more than reason enough to declare humans more "cohesive," than robots. It would take much more control over his powers to disassemble a human than an unliving robot.




He wouldn't just do it for revenge, but at the same time he's not Vash the Stampede. I think Kurt would kill an enemy if he felt it the only way to save his friends, or the world, or both.

kurt helped wolverine kill a whole bunch of demonds befor

Did he grab their heads and teleport away?

Well, did he?

no he teleported wolverine to them and stuff he actuly never killed one

Originally posted by Piedmon
I have a site and issues to back up my statement. The burden of proof is on you.He has a spine that can contort beyond the ranges of normal humans. His agility is well known.
Originally posted by Piedmon
It takes longer than milliseconds for him to reach out his arm, though. If Nightcrawler just wants to noncommitally dance around Cap, he can probably do that all day. It's when he tries to move in for the strike that Cap (who is a master of Judo, a defensive style, btw) would take him out. It takes milliseconds. He saved a woman from a guillotine in "less than half a second" with "time to spare".
Originally posted by Piedmon
Bull hockey. 616 Magneto sucks 616 Apoc's blue metal cock.AoA is more powerful than 616 Magneto. AoA was never reduced to an infant state and expended a great deal of power stopping one of Apocalypse's early assaults.
Originally posted by Piedmon
An inert slab of wood and living tissue aren't the same.
Nimrod is a robot. He's not held together by a living will. He was put together from seperate components. A human being is one package, all the organs grew together from the original zygote. In the world of comic pseudoscience, that would be more than reason enough to declare humans more "cohesive," than robots. It would take much more control over his powers to disassemble a human than an unliving robot.Captain America is held together by weak force and strong force. Not "will". Besides cells die and are replaced regularly whereas, whereas a robot maintains the same composition. If anything a human being is less cohesive.
Originally posted by Piedmon
He wouldn't just do it for revenge, but at the same time he's not Vash the Stampede. I think Kurt would kill an enemy if he felt it the only way to save his friends, or the world, or both. You "think" Kurt would. As part of his character he doesn't kill and he wouldn't just maim people left and right.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
He has a spine that can contort beyond the ranges of normal humans. His agility is well known.

Seriously. Give me something beyond your own word.



Think that guillotine moves faster than the bullets Cap dodged moving his way through Normandy?



Reguardless, my point was this: AoA was an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE. These versions of the characters had markedly different experiences and were effectively different people with the same basic power (and codename.) You can't use something in one universe as evidence for another....



Don't count willpower out. It's carried Cap through a lot of tougher shit than some bavarian guy who can't play the piano.




No, he was going at Azazel with a damn sword. He was fighting to kill the bastard. Nightcrawler is one of the more gentle X-Men by demeanor, but there have been times he fought with intention to kill. And he's never used this UNSTOPPABLE MONSTER TECHNIQUE. Only fans remember the original AoA anyway, these days. I guarantee no writer on X-Men right now, or any who are likely to be hired in the near future, would have Nightcrawler do this.

Originally posted by Piedmon
Seriously. Give me something beyond your own word.UXN and the handbook attribute his agility to his mutant anatomy. So are you saying that Captain America is more agile than Nightcrawler? A teleporter with five prehensile limbs and a spine capable of impossible contortions trained to his personal peak?
Originally posted by Piedmon
Think that guillotine moves faster than the bullets Cap dodged moving his way through Normandy?Milliseconds.
Originally posted by Piedmon
Reguardless, my point was this: AoA was an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE. These versions of the characters had markedly different experiences and were effectively different people with the same basic power (and codename.) You can't use something in one universe as evidence for another....Your point was people can't use things that would make Captain America lose. He teleported part of Nimrod, 616.
Originally posted by Piedmon
Don't count willpower out. It's carried Cap through a lot of tougher shit than some bavarian guy who can't play the piano.Are you actually saying Captain America's molecules are held together by willpower? Is this part of the Cap force.
Originally posted by Piedmon
No, he was going at Azazel with a damn sword. He was fighting to kill the bastard. Nightcrawler is one of the more gentle X-Men by demeanor, but there have been times he fought with intention to kill. And he's never used this UNSTOPPABLE MONSTER TECHNIQUE. Only fans remember the original AoA anyway, these days. I guarantee no writer on X-Men right now, or any who are likely to be hired in the near future, would have Nightcrawler do this. Writers don't make Flash speedblitz every opponent. Bored. Nobody's going to convince you that Captain America is capable of losing.

Well, in one X-Men comics, where they all had losed their powers, Kurt was going behind old recording of his Danger Room practice and wasn't able to pull off the same feats without his powers.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
He teleported part of Nimrod.





hmmm... didnt rogue teleport part of nimrod??? even then she had her own durability/strength added w/ colossus durability and strength. even then it hurt her. by this logic, night crawler isnt any where near as durable as them individually, let alone together... it could kill night crawler...

Originally posted by KillAll
hmmm... didnt rogue teleport part of nimrod??? even then she had her own durability/strength added w/ colossus durability and strength. even then it hurt her. by this logic, night crawler isnt any where near as durable as them individually, let alone together... it could kill night crawler...

REALLY.

Wow guys, way to be comprehensive....

I read that years ago. Oversight. Still his powers.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Well, in one X-Men comics, where they all had losed their powers, Kurt was going behind old recording of his Danger Room practice and wasn't able to pull off the same feats without his powers.

OK, I can buy that his agility increased (as it was an old issue of Excalibur, circa 1991.) All I was asking for was proof.

Doesn't change the outcome now that this other piece of information has come to light....

Well, good that Cap isn't as durable as Nimrod is. Or Kurt doesn't have to teleport as big piece of him.

Which mean's that he won't be as exhausted then if he would try to teleport Nimrod.

No, but neither is Nighcrawler as durable as Rogue + Colossus. And Cap can certainly take more raw punishment than Kurt.

Nightcrawler wins. He danced around X-23, who had peak human stats when she was a friggin KID. He was just chatting her up while she was swinging razor sharp adamantium claws at him. The shield flies fast, but no way does it move faster than gunfire, and Nightcrawler can dodge gunfire at point blank range. Oh, and he's taken blows with Captain Britain and kept fighting, so even if Cap gets in a hit Nightcrawler isn't just going to crumple.

Originally posted by Piedmon
HUMAN MAX.

Human max<Steel,

Nightcrawler teleported Nimrod's arms off. . .

Captain America just isn't fast enough to deal with Nightcrawler. . .

Originally posted by Creshosk
Human max<Steel,

Nightcrawler teleported Nimrod's arms off. . .

Captain America just isn't fast enough to deal with Nightcrawler. . .

So ****ing sick of that.....

It was done once by an alternate universe version....

It was done to a damn ROBOT by ROGUE who had other powers to make her extra durable.....

That is the biggest piece of crap since Wolverine shitting nuclear fire and Spiderman slapping down Firelord.

Captain Britain DID break Nightcrawler's leg. If Cap connects to Kurt's limbs, they'll break. If it's his head, that breaks too.

Originally posted by Khellendros
Nightcrawler wins. He danced around X-23, who had peak human stats when she was a friggin KID. He was just chatting her up while she was swinging razor sharp adamantium claws at him. The shield flies fast, but no way does it move faster than gunfire, and Nightcrawler can dodge gunfire at point blank range. Oh, and he's taken blows with Captain Britain and kept fighting, so even if Cap gets in a hit Nightcrawler isn't just going to crumple.

X-23 is just a brawler with speed and strength. She has training, yes, but that's no substitute for real experience. The number of fights she's wheathered are a drop in the bucket to Cap or Wolvie. I hope you're not suggesting she's some kind of credible threat.

Originally posted by Piedmon
So ****ing sick of that.....

It was done once by an alternate universe version.... No it wasn't. LMAO. . . it was a 616 Nightcrawler that teleported off an arm of Nimrod.

Uncanny X-men issue 194. Nightcrawler, not the Nightrougalosurine. . .

Nightcrawler teleported off Nimrod's arm.

I have two conflicting reports on it, then.

Thanks for giving me the issue number. I'll hunt down that issue on my own and see it for myself.

Originally posted by Piedmon
I have two conflicting reports on it, then.

Thanks for giving me the issue number. I'll hunt down that issue on my own and see it for myself. And don't get it confused with round two, Captain America can't put out energy so can't put out the energy signature that ended round two. . .

Originally posted by Creshosk
No it wasn't. LMAO. . . it was a 616 Nightcrawler that teleported off an arm of Nimrod.

Uncanny X-men issue 194. Nightcrawler, not the Nightrougalosurine. . .

Nightcrawler teleported off Nimrod's arm.

Rogue did it when she absorbed Colossus' and Nightcrawler's powers...but the reason she absorbed Colossus' powers was because Nightcrawler almost died when he tried that attack on someone much less powerful and durable than Nimrod. Rogue figured if she absorbed Colossus' durability she would have a chance...and I think it still hurt her.

Originally posted by Creshosk
And don't get it confused with round two, Captain America can't put out energy so can't put out the energy signature that ended round two. . .

What? o_O

Hmm. . yeah, I guess it was. . .

But he could still teleport that sheild away, it's not nearly as attatched as an arm is anyway. . .

Originally posted by Piedmon
What? o_O Round two ended rather differently:

http://www.uncannyxmen.net/images/spotlight/nightcrawler13.jpg

Due to him being able to predict his movement by tracking it, and then hitting him with a special energy signature. . .

So has Nightcrawler actually teleported Nimrod's limb?

Originally posted by Wynndar
So has Nightcrawler actually teleported Nimrod's limb? Obviously his power is capable of removing limbs. . .

Do you think that Nightcrawler can't?

Obviously nightcrawler thought he could. . .

ah...but he hasnt and it was rogue who successfully did it right? My point is that he could probably be very proficient at dismembering...but his durability limits him from doing it. BTW what ended up happening to him later in that scan?

Originally posted by Wynndar
ah...but he hasnt and it was rogue who successfully did it right? My point is that he could probably be very proficient at dismembering...but his durability limits him from doing it. BTW what ended up happening to him later in that scan?

Kurt wound up near the harbor of New York, he was about to be killed by an angry mob, as he was too exhausted to teleport (his mutant powers was temporarily diminished).

Do you guys remeber that Kurt can take off a view heads in a second !!

What if Nightcrawler would manage to catch Cap and quickly teleport him around in few seconds?

He did that to one superhuman being who was pretty durable and knocked her out. The caption said that it felt the same to the passenger then "set of punches from Wolverine's adamantium knuckles".

Originally posted by Piedmon
X-23 is just a brawler with speed and strength. She has training, yes, but that's no substitute for real experience. The number of fights she's wheathered are a drop in the bucket to Cap or Wolvie. I hope you're not suggesting she's some kind of credible threat.
Dide you read her little miniseries? She was carrying out black ops missions before she had breasts. She waded through more than a dozen soldiers and at the end of the fight was holding one full grown man up off the ground with one arm. Again, this was before puberty.

Also, I notice you didn't reply to the bit about him taking hits from Captain Britain.

Originally posted by Khellendros
Also, I notice you didn't reply to the bit about him taking hits from Captain Britain.

Originally posted by Piedmon
Captain Britain DID break Nightcrawler's leg. If Cap connects to Kurt's limbs, they'll break. If it's his head, that breaks too.

Whoops. My bad. Need to pay more attention.

EDIT: But did he seriously compare CLASS NINETY Captain Britain with Enhanced Human Captain America? Nice.