Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Well I think this should be a good match. Both amazing ancient sith lords. Highly feared and respected, who would win?

YEAH ROXORS haha exar is used to much in these threads

I've heard from one place that Sidious is the strongest Sith every and in another spurce Exar Kun is. But none have said Freedon Nadd. I mostly know Exar from the New Essential Guide to Characters. Didn't it take a dozen of Luke's best student's to defeat Exar? And what did Freedon Nadd do that was so awesome?

Nadd, I mean conquring a planet all by yourself and only using a short lightsaber and a blaster takes a lot of skill.

Well for those of you who do not know, here is some info on Freedon:

Freedon Nadd started his career as a Jedi student at the Jedi Temple on Ossus approxematly 4,400 years before ANH. While being very strong with the force he failed his trials to become a Jedi Knight. Enraged with the decission of the Council, Freedon Nadd struck down the Jedi Master Matta Tremayne.

Now he started his way on the dark side path studying ancient Sith secrets but because he knew that there can only be one Dark Lord of the Sith at any time (and he thought there was a Dark Lord still alive somewhere) he thought that he could never become more than a Sith Acolyte - something that enraged him even more.

Led by the force Nadd moved to Yavin 4 where he ran across Naga Sadow who had entered suspended animation there after the events of the Great Hyperspace War and sought to complete his training under the Sith Lord. Before he finished his training he thought himself powerful enough to defeat Sadow and claim the title as a Dark Lord for himself - it is believed that he killed Sadow but that is not confirmed yet.

He travelled to Korriban where he gathered many ancient Sith artifacts and from Korriban he moved to Onderon - at this time one of the richest planets in known space - to establish his own Sith Empire.

Armed only with a short lightsaber and a blaster pistol (and his force powers) he conquered the entire planet on his own and nearly destroyed the entire population of Beast Riders using Sith magic only. He ruled over the planet until the Jedi send an army of force users to destroy him but Nadd did kill many Jedi (shooting them with his blaster) before he was defeated but he was able to preserve his spirit in a Sith amulet he found on Korriban and so his spirit still influenced the rulers of Onderon. That was the reason Sith magic was very common among the people of Iziz.

400 years later the descendants of Freedon Nadd (Queen Amanoa and King Ommin) created serveral revolts to finally exterminate the Beast Riders. The first revolt under Queen Amanoa was stopped by a Jedi strike team supported by Master Arca Jeth who used battle meditation to give the Beast Riders a chance to defeat the troops of Iziz, Onderons capital city. Shortly after that another revolt by King Ommin was started who kept Arca Jeth as a prisoner. That revolt was called the "Freedon Nadd uprising" and it lasted until Ulic Quel-Droma cut down King Ommins exo-sceleton. The king was still alive when Freedon Nadd's spirit reappeared and ended the life of his descendant.

After this Exar Kun discovered the amulet Nadd has preserved his spirit in and Nadd started to manipulate Kun, pulling him to the dark side. He led Kun to Korriban and Yavin 4 where Kun discovered more Sith artifacts which finally made him more powerful than Nadd's spirit could control and so Kun - while taking control of the Massasi on Yavin 4 - finally exterminated Nadd's spirit.

For all we know Nadd is easily the most combative Sith Lord ever - at least the one with the most raw combat skills and fighting abilities considering the fact that he killed a decent amount of Jedi with his blaster (!), conquered a planet on his own and was able to waste entire armies with his force knowledge / Sith magic.

And here is some info on Exar:

Exar was an exceptional duelling master; he was a master of form two, the duelling form.
He also was able to freeze the entire (which had jedi that were in the building) with one spell and then rescue his apprentice and kill an extremely powerful jedi master and nobody could do a thing about it. This jedi master was also very similar to Yoda and been training for 600 years, also remember that the jedi master was training during the height or war in the republic so he knew battle better than Yoda did.
The jedi order also sent thousands of jedi to kill Exar. He was able to repel all of them long enough to preserve his spirit for thousands of years.

And Exar did study alot, Vodo-Baas says that Exar is the most powerful student he has ever trained and the most powerful force user of that time, and Vodo was similar to Yoda, he trained lots of jedi over a long period of time, and if Exar was the best, that means something.

Exar also studied alot, he was fascinated by the sith teachings in Vodo's holocron. Exar also learned under the ancient sith, like Freedon Nadd and Marka Ragnos, he would still be very smart. It is also worth noting that the ancient sith said that Exar would be the one to bring about the golden age of the sith and said that he was the Dark Lord of the Sith, over Ulic-Qel Droma.

Exar Kun was also able to destroy the entire massassani race, quite a feat. He drained their life force and used it to prolong his life.

His apprentice, Ulic, was a powerful jedi and dueller in his own right, but Exar was his unquestioned master and the ancient sith said that Kun would be the dark lord, not Ulic, this means that Kun is stronger than Ulic was.

He was also able to hide as a sith in the middle of the jedi stronghold (Ossus) and recruit jedi to become sith, without the jedi even knowing what he was doing, that's got to take some pretty impreesive power. He decived the best jedi in the order, took sith stuff and recruited new allies from the midst of the jedi ranks, lied to the jedi masters, and they couldn't even tell it was going on! Also, this planet (and its sun) were later blown up by Kun so anybody after him would have no knowledge of those things that Exar knew.

Also, he invented his own lightsaber, Exar was the person who invented the double blade lightsaber. He also designed his own unique style of duelling, something that he never tought to anyone and was lost after his defeat. So nobody other than him and Ulic had any idea what to expect from him (everyone else he faced ended up dead)

He is also an amazing dueller, after he decided to try against Vodo (a lightsaber master), Vodo died in around 10 seconds, before that Kun was just toying with him. Toying with him! In the middle of the senate chamber on the same planet as the jedi temple, he could still toy with one of the best duellers in the jedi order and win hands down.

Kun also learned loads of stuff from Ossus, which was later destroyed by him so anyone after him couldn't have learned anything from it, he also used sith holocrons and had the private notes of Naga Sadow, another sith who could blow up a sun. Naga was also a dark lord of the sith from 1000 years before Exar and was Marka Ragnos apprentice and had an amazing grasp of the dark side, Exar learned it all.
Kun was able to walk into the heart of the republic senate, freeze them all, kill their leader and a jedi master, and walk out, nobody could do a thing. This is in the heart of the jedi order! He was also able to kill a beast which is probably very similar to a terentek, or better, with very few problems. Exar was also able to walk into another jedi stronghold (Ossus), kill more jedi, steal the artifacts, and walk out again, unharmed. He was also able to destroy Freedon Nadd with no problems.

Think about how he died, he was faced against 10 000 jedi, and the republic fleet. Under those circumstances, anyone would have died. Exar died sure, but he was able to hold the entire fleet off with the force until he was able to figure out a plan to keep himself alive. Exar was able to kill off an entire race, numbering thousands, to keep himself alive, sure he was killed 4000 years later, but it still took 14 jedi, 12 padawans, Luke and Kuns old master to kill him. Think about it, 2 lightsabers, 12 padawans/knights, 2 jedi masters (including one of the most powerful jedi ever; Luke and the old version of Yoda, Vodo-Baas, he trained lots of jedi, for some reason I think of him like an old Yoda), to kill off Kun's 4000 year old ionized air particles! He must have been near godlike when he was alive.

When Kun walked, the ground shook underneath him from the shear power of the dark side emanating from his body.

Exar did invent his own style of lightsaber combat, the double blade, also, his double blade was different than any other double blade. He was able to move it faster and aim more than with other double blades. Also, since few people had never seen a double bladed sabre, it would throw them off. He can move his lightsaber so quickly that almost anyone he faced would be sliced before he knew what was going on.

Exar wore armor with a cortosis weave in it, allowing him to recieve hits from a lightsaber without doing him damage.

He was also a powerful sith alchemist and created several beasts.

Kunicious.

Naddicious. . . lol.

I don't know. I've been wondering about this recently myself. But my respect for Nadd has grown greatly recently. Taking over a planet with a blaster and a short lightsaber is beyond most, to say the least. I'm leaning slightly towards him, but by a small margin.

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar

He was also able to destroy Freedon Nadd with no problems.


assuming that this is correct it shouldn't be a competition. how/when did he fight him? i'm curious.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
assuming that this is correct it shouldn't be a competition. how/when did he fight him? i'm curious.

He meant when Kun fought Nadd's spirit.

he destroyed Nadd's spirit, not his physical form.

I'm leaning more towards Nadd. While Kun was amazing, Nadd was a step above even him. Nadd was able to conquer a planet and no one did jack about it.

You are learning towards Nadd because he was able to conquer a planet and no one did jack about it? Not good enough, another reason perhaps?

Excuse me? Did I ask you to comment on my decision? No, I didn't. If I had, I'm sure I would have given you a deadline and had a grading scale ready. Please. Stfu. Didn't ask for your input.

Lol. I agree with Janus. It can be gone into with greater detail, but seeing as how everyone seems well-versed enough *end sarcasm*, I don't think that will be necessary.

Quite the History Channel lesson. That will probably affect me more than watching that one on Napoleon...

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Excuse me? Did I ask you to comment on my decision? No, I didn't. If I had, I'm sure I would have given you a deadline and had a grading scale ready. Please. Stfu. Didn't ask for your input.

Whoa, chill dude. I didn't cuss at you in the first place, if I did then you could start getting pissed. Settle down.

I think Nadd will take Exar.

While Exar was really amazing, Nadd was stronger in my oppinion. Since Lord Darkstar did quote my own words on Nadd everything I had to say was said.

Nadd conquered a planet, but Exar ripped a star appart. I admit, my Nadd knowledge is very small, but what has he done. I only know that he conquered a planet and got killed by Exar as a spirit.

He also possibly killed Naga Sadow, which is freaking amazing. And one of the reasons I think Nadd will win this. He just seems to be a bit above Exar.

nadds balster is nasty (in kotor 2 i got 2 by a glitch)

really? I don't remember getting it. What are its stats (damage, bonuses)?

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
really? I don't remember getting it. What are its stats (damage, bonuses)?

damage: 3-12 2-20 dark side
crit: 20
range: 23 m
attack: 2
balanced
upgreadable: (scope)
restricted to sith assassin, sith marauder, sith lord


i found one in his tomb and another in the ruined academy. it was pretty cool, i could duel weild them and just plow through people.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Nadd conquered a planet, but Exar ripped a star appart. I admit, my Nadd knowledge is very small, but what has he done. I only know that he conquered a planet and got killed by Exar as a spirit.

He didn't just take over a planet. He took it over with a blaster and a short lightsaber. And of course, some Force powers. Not to mention that he single-handedly wiped out almost the entire Beast Rider population. And as Fishy said, he may have slain Naga Sadow, although this is an unknown. I myself don't support that theory for Sadow's death, but whatever.

As I was saying, it wasn't like Nadd just stepped onto Onderon and took it over. He fought the forces of an entire planet and won. That takes skill. Exar may have done some nice things, but fighting off an army of Jedi with a blaster?

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
He didn't just take over a planet. He took it over with a blaster and a short lightsaber. And of course, some Force powers. Not to mention that he single-handedly wiped out almost the entire Beast Rider population. And as Fishy said, he may have slain Naga Sadow, although this is an unknown. I myself don't support that theory for Sadow's death, but whatever.

As I was saying, it wasn't like Nadd just stepped onto Onderon and took it over. He fought the forces of an entire planet and won. That takes skill. Exar may have done some nice things, but fighting off an army of Jedi with a blaster?

I don't think he slew Naga, but if he did, then I would completly change my mind and give him the victory.

Nadd took out a ton of Beast Riders, but Exar killed Nadd and many(not sure of the exact count) in one attack.

Sure Nadd was a spirit, but he was a relativly young one as Sith spirits go.

I'd give Nadd a good chance, but I think its definatly in Exars favor.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I don't think he slew Naga, but if he did, then I would completly change my mind and give him the victory.

Nadd took out a ton of Beast Riders, but Exar killed Nadd and many(not sure of the exact count) in one attack.

Sure Nadd was a spirit, but he was a relativly young one as Sith spirits go.

I'd give Nadd a good chance, but I think its definatly in Exars favor.

I myself doubt that, but whatever. Until proven, we'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

Exar killed Nadd's spirit, which, mind you, was able to kill a rather powerful Force user on its own.

What? So because Nadd's spirit was 'younger' than other spirits, it's that much stronger? Must I rmeind you that Ragnos' spirit, after 5000 years, was strong enough to possess a Dark acolyte of some power, and battle a Jedi Knight who, in the words of Luke, was 'one of our most promising students'? And Exar, who after 4000 years was capable of battling fourteen Jedi, two of which were spirits? I don't think so.

Nadd was likely the most naturally talented lightsaber-duelist the Sith had seen since Tulak Hord. Exar was, and still is, one of the most powerful beings ever. Perhaps, and I say this lightly, possessing more raw power and potential than Nadd. He was, afterall, prophecized to bring about the Golden Age. However, answer me this. How much coordination, skill, and control does it take to slaughter some of the best Jedi of an era with a blaster?

I myself doubt that, but whatever. Until proven, we'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

Nothing really to say here.

Exar killed Nadd's spirit, which, mind you, was able to kill a rather powerful Force user on its own.

Who was this? He was able to influence his decendent, King Omemin(spelling?) to keep Arca Jeth(I think it was him. Like I said, my knowledge of that is limited.). It wasn't just Nadd's spirit, King Omenin did most of the work.

What? So because Nadd's spirit was 'younger' than other spirits, it's that much stronger? Must I rmeind you that Ragnos' spirit, after 5000 years, was strong enough to possess a Dark acolyte of some power, and battle a Jedi Knight who, in the words of Luke, was 'one of our most promising students'? And Exar, who after 4000 years was capable of battling fourteen Jedi, two of which were spirits? I don't think so.

I don't exactly get the point of this, but whatever.

Nadd was likely the most naturally talented lightsaber-duelist the Sith had seen since Tulak Hord. Exar was, and still is, one of the most powerful beings ever. Perhaps, and I say this lightly, possessing more raw power and potential than Nadd. He was, afterall, prophecized to bring about the Golden Age. However, answer me this. How much coordination, skill, and control does it take to slaughter some of the best Jedi of an era with a blaster.

What can you base this off of? You just randomly state that Nadd is the second greatest? He didn't just have a blaster. He had a lightsaber and the force. Exar could have done the same thing. He could have killed every Jedi on Coruscant, but choose not to.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I myself doubt that, but whatever. Until proven, we'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

Nothing really to say here.

Exar killed Nadd's spirit, which, mind you, was able to kill a rather powerful Force user on its own.

Who was this? He was able to influence his decendent, King Omemin(spelling?) to keep Arca Jeth(I think it was him. Like I said, my knowledge of that is limited.). It wasn't just Nadd's spirit, King Omenin did most of the work.

What? So because Nadd's spirit was 'younger' than other spirits, it's that much stronger? Must I rmeind you that Ragnos' spirit, after 5000 years, was strong enough to possess a Dark acolyte of some power, and battle a Jedi Knight who, in the words of Luke, was 'one of our most promising students'? And Exar, who after 4000 years was capable of battling fourteen Jedi, two of which were spirits? I don't think so.

I don't exactly get the point of this, but whatever.

Nadd was likely the most naturally talented lightsaber-duelist the Sith had seen since Tulak Hord. Exar was, and still is, one of the most powerful beings ever. Perhaps, and I say this lightly, possessing more raw power and potential than Nadd. He was, afterall, prophecized to bring about the Golden Age. However, answer me this. How much coordination, skill, and control does it take to slaughter some of the best Jedi of an era with a blaster.

What can you base this off of? You just randomly state that Nadd is the second greatest? He didn't just have a blaster. He had a lightsaber and the force. Exar could have done the same thing. He could have killed every Jedi on Coruscant, but choose not to.

There is no "/' on the first brackets.

Lol

"I don't exactly get the point of this, but whatever."

Upon re-reading it,. neither do I. . . hm.

"There is no "/' on the first brackets."

Whoops. That post is a little messed up.

Freedon Nadd, in my opinion, was little more than a Dark Jedi upstart. He was never close to being declared the Dark Lord of the Sith and he claimed that Exar Kun was a "pretender" to the Sith legacy, in contradiction to the spirit of a Lord of the Sith (Assumed to be Ragnos) who appeared and proclaimed Exar to be the Dark Lord.

Besides, it isn't entirely difficult for a disciple of the Dark Side to win over what amounted to a backwater planet at the time. I'm certain that, put in the same situation, Exar Kun could have performed the same feat with relative ease.

A Sith Lord that can stride into the Republic Senate, freeze its members and guard instantly, use the Chancellor as a literal puppet, toy with and kill the Jedi Order's grandmaster, and stride out has my vote over a dark jedi that may or may not have destroyed Naga Sadow's spirit form and conquered a planet.

Originally posted by IKC
Besides, it isn't entirely difficult for a disciple of the Dark Side to win over what amounted to a backwater planet at the time. I'm certain that, put in the same situation, Exar Kun could have performed the same feat with relative ease.

Onderon at the time Nadd took the planet over was one of the wealthiest planets in the entire Galaxy. So...they would have some of the best planetary defenses and Nadd destroyed it completely AND he did wipe out the Beast Riders with sheer force power.



Not Naga Sadow's spirit - Naga Sadow in his physical form. Sadow entered suspended animation after the Great Hyperspace War so he was still alive when Nadd did run across him.
And if you have a look at the description of Nadd's blaster in KotoR 2 it says that this blasters has killed more Jedi than any lightsaber known. So Nadd killed more Jedi with his blaster than Exar, Hord and Ulic killed with their lightsabers. And that's impressive...

Actually, here is a good site that I found,

http://www.gamebanshee.com/starwarskotorii/chronicles.php

You can browse around there and find lots of info dealing with loads of different computer/console games.

However, the point is that if you look at the info for Freedon's blaster, it says that this weapon has killed more jedi than any lightsaber ever has. Also, under his lightsaber, it says that he trained with, and later destroyed Naga Sadow.

So, that tells us that Nadd can kill more jedi with a freaking blaster than any other sith up to the time in KotOR II (including Revan, Malak, Exar, Ulic, Kreia, Sion, Nihilius and the Exile) ever had. Also, that tells us that he did kill Sadow off.

Very impressive in my opinion, Nadd wins, though after a hard fight that would devastate the world that it was fought on

Originally posted by Lord Darkstar
However, the point is that if you look at the info for Freedon's blaster, it says that this weapon has killed more jedi than any lightsaber ever has. Also, under his lightsaber, it says that he trained with, and later destroyed Naga Sadow.

So, that tells us that Nadd can kill more jedi with a freaking blaster than any other sith up to the time in KotOR II (including Revan, Malak, Exar, Ulic, Kreia, Sion, Nihilius and the Exile) ever had. Also, that tells us that he did kill Sadow off.

"The fate of Sadow remained a mystery."

Thats right off that site.

It also doesn't say how he killed those Jedi with that blaster. And no, it doesn't mean Nadd killed more than Exar, Sion, or Nihilus. Exar killed thousands on Ossus by destroying a star(using the force.) Sion gassed Jedi, hit them with grenades(killed most without a lightsaber.). And Nihilus just plain ate them(using force powers.). Most powerful people used the force to kill their opponents. Also, powerful Sith generally fought each other more than they fought Jedi,

And even if he had killed the most out of them, is Anakin more powerful than Ragnos? No, he isn't but he killed more than him. Others who didn't kill more could have killed more, but chose not to.

So basically, you didn't really show anything force Nadd in that post.

What I meant by the killed more jedi part is that he killed more jedi with the blaster than any of the others that I mentioned did with a lightsaber, remember this includes Sion who basically hunted down and destroyed the entire order.

As for where it says that Nadd destroyed Sadow, go here:

http://www.gamebanshee.com/starwarskotorii/equipment/lightsabers.php#null

then click on 'Freedon Nadd's Short Lightsaber' scroll down and it says that he destroyed Sadow.

Like I said, Sion didn't kill most of his victims with lightsabers, he used bombs, poison gas, ect.

That site is contradicting itself. In one part it says Naga was killed by Nadd and in another it says his fate was unknown. Add that to that site going against many other sources, and it doesn't mean anything.

No it isn't. The only Jedi Ulic ever struck down with a lightsaber was his brother, yet for as long as I've been watching this forum Ulic is considered an upper-tier force user. The number of Jedi one kills with weapon X isn't a measurement of power or if one might be able to defeat a certain opponent.

It took the arrival of all the Jedi - all of them - in orbit above Yavin 4 to defeat Exar Kun at the height of his power. (TOTJ: The Sith War. "Even I can't fight the combined might of all the Jedi!".

Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith says this about Nadd in the intro:



Note how he isn't even considered a Sith, much less the Dark Lord. Note also how it describes his so-called "conquest." It merely says that his powers "took hold" on the isolated (read, backwater) world. Granted, he may have destroyed the beastriders, but non-force users have never been a match for those who can use the force. I'd like to ask what the source is on those who say that Freedon actually conquered Onderon. If it's the site Darkstar keeps referencing, I'd like to point out that it's full of quite a few factual errors.

For example, when it speaks of Exar Kun killing master Odan-Urr, it says, "When the young Padawans discover the slaying, Kun informs them that the sacrifice was necessary to grant him even more knowledge."

This is nonsense, and anyone with a brain would assume the Padawans would have turned on Kun. What Kun actually did was lie to the Jedi, who were actually Jedi Knights, saying that "(Odan-Urr) was ancient and it was his time. But before he left, he gave me a gift... a rare Holocron. He said it was a fitting present for a Jedi Master. I am a Jedi Master. Odan-Urr has passed his flame to me."

Putting aside that I think that such a lie is a tremendous demonstration of Kun's ability to sway people, I'd have to say that the gamebanshee site is not a completely trustworthy source. They play hard and loose with the facts and they take their summarizing too far, cutting out other key things.

Bottom line, Kun takes this fight, showing Nadd who the real "pretender" to the Sith legacy is.

How does Kun take this? I see no real evidence for it at least not in your post.

But still what Darkstar quoted is the ingame description of the weapon incorrect as it may be its still there. But does it really matter, if Nadd killed Sadow or not? The fact does he remain he did defeat him. And he did kill a shit load of Jedi with a blaster.

A freaking blaster, its incredibly hard to do that. If not impossible. Yet Nadd pulled it off and not just one of them, but a lot of them.

Why do you guys keep saying it was done with only a blaster? He had a lightsaber with him. He also had the force. Onderon was a military world, but Coruscant was the heart of the Republic. Exar walked onto Coruscant and froze all the Jedi except Vodo. He could have easily killed everyone, they were just standing still.

That site contradicts itself. It contradicts other sources. Does Ben and Anakin Solo finding Anakin Skywalkers lightsaber 30 years after Yavin have a higher profile with you than all the other sources that have Anakin Solo dying ~26 after the battle of Yavin? Of course you don't. Its the same way with the description of the blaster, so why should you, or anyone else believe that?

Thats not the only place that talks about Nadd killing Jedi with a blaster.

I'm not saying he didn't kill Jedi with a blaster. I'm saying that when he took over Onderon, that was far from his only weapon.

Well yeah you are right, but killing Jedi with a blaster stays damn amazing... I mean its just something that should never kill a Jedi and Nadd used it to kill not one but many Jedi.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Like I said, Sion didn't kill most of his victims with lightsabers, he used bombs, poison gas, ect.

That site is contradicting itself. In one part it says Naga was killed by Nadd and in another it says his fate was unknown. Add that to that site going against many other sources, and it doesn't mean anything.

First off, proof of Sion killing people with bombs, poison gas, etc? Don't leap to conclusions, Glentract.

Second, that site is suspect, and considering KOTOR's notorious issues with accuracy (Proclaiming Naga Sadow the greatest of the Sith lords on Korriban, having tombs for SIth lords who didn't even die on-planet, etc.) I would not neccessarily put too much of my faith into the item descriptions.

Third, props to IKC for doing his homework.

Fishy, killing a Jedi with a blaster isn't too amazing. Clones trooper killed thousands of them like that.

Janus, Sion trained his troops in ways to kill Jedi without engaging them in main stream combat. Atton said that this was a way that made killing Jedi easy. Why would Sion be an expert in killing with bombs, gas ect. and then not utilize those skills when they are the most effective?

Hmm dude... The clone troopers had superior numbers like the droids they also attacked from the back. The droids heavily outnumbered weak and phathetic Jedi... Nadd did it by himself... No support no overwelming surprise attacks.. No he killed them with a blaster in a one on one fight.

Obi-wan took out GG with a blaster. What I'm getting at is that being able to kill someone with a blaster doesn't mean he is going to be a pimp with a lightsaber or be able to kill Exar with that blaster.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Fishy, killing a Jedi with a blaster isn't too amazing. Clones trooper killed thousands of them like that.

Janus, Sion trained his troops in ways to kill Jedi without engaging them in main stream combat. Atton said that this was a way that made killing Jedi easy. Why would Sion be an expert in killing with bombs, gas ect. and then not utilize those skills when they are the most effective?

First point, the jedi were betrayed by the entire Grand Army of the Republic. This is a different scenario than being destroyed by a single "dark jedi apprentice" as people put it.

Second, there is NO indication that the Sith assassins used bombs or gas. Atton said they practiced methods to get closer to enemies. In particular, they cloaked themselves both visibly and in the Force (seeing as they sneak right up on the Exile and even Kreia in many cutscenes) and they use staff like weapons and lightsabers, not bombs or gas.

This is leaping to conclusions. You don't have a thing to support this idea, yet you assume and uphold it simply because it makes sense... to you.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Second, there is NO indication that the Sith assassins used bombs or gas. Atton said they practiced methods to get closer to enemies. In particular, they cloaked themselves both visibly and in the Force (seeing as they sneak right up on the Exile and even Kreia in many cutscenes) and they use staff like weapons and lightsabers, not bombs or gas.

Go talk to Atton again. He says that they used bombs, gas ect.(does no one else remember this?)

I'd also like to point out that Freedan Nadd instakilled King Ommnin, who himself was a potent Force user (and descedant of Nadd) who could successfully overwhelm and capture Arca Jeth. Nadd's teachings come from Naga Sadow himself, and the possibility exists that Nadd destroyed Sadow (Although the condition of Sadow before or during the time of the act is entirely open to question). I mean, this fight will be amazingly vicious and explosive, and I think Exar Kun has a chance of winning... But let's face it- Freedan Nadd's powers were immense. And he had a whole lifetime (Several actually, since he remained after death to instruct his descendants of Onderon) to practice Naga's dark arts. Exar Kun was a sith lord for a relatively short amount of time, and bound himself to the temple, effectively losing his freewill and later his sanity.

It seems reasonable that Nadd would be more formidable, even if in sheer Force powers.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Go talk to Atton again. He says that they used bombs, gas ect.(does no one else remember this?)

I do. Atton does say that he used gas but that does not mean that Sion did.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Go talk to Atton again. He says that they used bombs, gas ect.(does no one else remember this?)

Atton used bombs, gas. Sion didn't. Leaping to conclusions. And Atton wasn't a rank and file Sith Assassin as depicted in KOTOR II; he was a special ops type, considered non-force sensitive. Despite their weakness, the Sith Assassins in KOTOR II are Force sensitive as Kreia says. They draw on the Force power of the nearby Force users.

If Atton was trained by Sion as an assassin, it makes since that they would kill in similar ways.

Actually Kreia describes them like this "The Sith assassins drain the force to fill the hollow places where the force used to be" Obviously they are force sensitve... But appearantly they were losing some of their connection to the force. It became hollow and they needed to feed to fill it. Nihilus power. The Sith assassins in Kotor II are different then those that would have acted in the times of Kotor.

Still it matters not, the assassins were not all that was around and they had to fight as well. There isn't an assassin that could move without using a lightsaber. Sion would have to know how to use a lightsaber and he would use it too on many occassions.

He wasn't. He didn't know Sion personally. And Atton was part of Revan's special ops, not the Sith Assassins trained at Malachor V under Sion, who was in turn under Kreia. And I'd like to point out that Atton doesn't know Kreia, Sion, Nihilus OR Revan personally. He was a low-level grunt for much of his career, and when he started to climb the ranks, word got out of him being Force sensitive. If he hadn't deserted, he might be a minor Sith character in the game.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
If Atton was trained by Sion as an assassin, it makes since that they would kill in similar ways.

Atton wasn't trained by Sion though.

Glentract, you need radiation treatment sometimes. You get infected with these brain bugs and they run away with you.

Next Nadd will suck because he used a blaster, Kun will suck because he didn't use Force choke, Vader will pwn because he's a Sith lord and Yoda will be god because he practices Ataru.

Btw: If atton was trained by Sion he would lure his prey towards him and then trap them and take them out. There is nothing to suggest Atton fought like that, nothing at all. He never talks about that. So we can only assume he doesn't do that.

Unlike Sion who made sure he had something to lure the Exile with, Lona Vash. Then he kept her alive until the Exile arrived on the planet. He killed her when the Exile was already on the planet (Visas says she fell the death of this master shortly after they arrived) then he locks them up in the Academy and faces them personally. If anything Sion seems to kill his victims personally with possible help from some assassins. He does not seem to use gas or bombs. But lightsabers and weapons in close up fights.

He's too proud a Sith Lord. And if he showed weakness, he might be exposed to the lesser Sith.

Okay. So apparently he didn't fight like that.

So Nadd killed more than Sion. This doesn't mean he will be any good against Kun. Kun could have personally killed every Jedi on Coruscant, but decided not to. That would be far more than the number of Jedi on Onderon.

Exar also ripped the core out of a star. Where has Nadd ever demonstrated power on that level?

Nadd as a spirit killed King Ominen(spelling?), but Kun, as a spirit that was ten times older, ripped Luke from his body.

Exar held off the Republic Army which had at LEAST hundreds of Jedi in it. Where has Nadd equaled this?

Nadd killing those Jedi with a blaster is impressive, but if Exar went down to a blaster shot, I would cry. He can presumably asorb blaster bolts with his hands as Darth Vader did.


As a side note, Jedi from Exar's era seem like they would be stronger because they lived in a time when their were wars(Exar fought them several years into the Great Sith War) where Nadd fought Jedi where their were maybe one person who was old enough to have lived back to the Great Hyperspace War. Jedi from Nadd's time generally had LESS War experince than even PT Jedi since at least some PT Jedi fought in the Stark Hyperspace War.

I'd like to point out that it's highly inaccurate to say that either Exar Kun or Naga Sadow, with their own power, ripped the cores from stars.

They did this using a blend of Sith magic and technology. The only way they could do it was by using Naga Sadow's ship, the "star-ripping" was its primary weapon that only a Force user could use. Why do you think Exar Kun sent Aleema, by all respects a very low-level Force user considering he knocked her out in one blast before becoming "Uber-Kun," to destroy the Cron Cluster and thereby destroy Ossus?

That means, technically, Aleema Keto "ripped the core from a star." That doesn't make her powerful, since she used Sadow's ship to do it, as did Sadow himself.

Moving on, the ability to kill a Jedi with a blaster isn't too impressive. Does anyone remember Coleman Trebor getting blasted by Jango Fett? Any number of scenarios could arise where Nadd could use trickery to blast a Jedi. I envision him dueling with his lightsaber and then blasting the Jedi from point blank range, for example. (This is despite the fact that I think KOTOR is irrelevant to arguing EU Star Wars, since it contradicts other sound sources and also plays "hard and loose" with the facts for the purposes of putting together a game that is fun and will sell well.)

However, Glentract, I do remember his "bombs and poison gas" advice. HK-47 gave the same advice in-game.

And again, I don't think Nadd conquered Onderon. I think he merely used a less subtle Sidious-like political maneuvering and dark side powers to put himself in power. Sure he fought the beast riders, but since they were at a constant war with the other people of Onderon that doesn't make him special. Honestly I could be wrong, but from what I remember of my TOTJ, he didn't stand against the combined might of all the peoples of Onderon and win. TOTJ: Dark Lords of the Sith says, "Nadd roamed the uncharted (backwater) systems, until he found a world (Onderon) he could dominate (emphasis theirs) using the powers of the Dark Side."

Oh, by the way... I also don't think Naga Sadow was ever the Dark Lord of the Sith. According to the holocron Exar Kun is studying in the beginning of Dark Lords of the Sith, when Naga Sadow fled the galaxy, he was

Just a couple of pages later, it says that Sadow

If the holocron is true (as well it should be, since it was a history Vodo Siosk-Bass was keeping) then the KOTOR nonsense about Sadow ever vying for the throne of Dark Lord is nowhere near true, much less the even bigger nonsense about his tomb being on Korriban.

Good points.

Does using technology mean much though? Nadd used a blaster, which is a form of technology. They use lightsabers, which is technology.

It means something inasmuch as you assumed that these men ripped the cores from stars using nothing but their own Force powers, which would be a near-godlike feat.

They didn't do this. They used Sadow's invention, triggered by their powers.

Yes, but until we know just how much of it was the ship, and how much it was the man, it's still quite a feat. That, and that we've seen other godlike feats.

The Ancient Sith were narratively "godlike," and Sadow also demonstrated other force powers that could well fall into that category. To say his force powers are diminished because "it's the ship" would be like saying "it's the shoes" for a basketball player.

A counterassumption also isn't fair.

I'd have to say that most of the power came from the ship itself, since a relative weakling like Aleema Keto used it to destroy the Cron Cluster, Illustrious. (Aleema even said, "Naga Sadow's weaponry is so powerful... I can't wait to use it." I'm not using it to diminish Exar's powers, since he didn't actually use it. I'm using it to diminish Naga's force powers. However, it raises Naga's prestige as far as alchemy and inventiveness goes.

Could you name some of these other powers Naga used that fall into that category?

Originally posted by IKC
Moving on, the ability to kill a Jedi with a blaster isn't too impressive. Does anyone remember Coleman Trebor getting blasted by Jango Fett?

Don't use that scene as proof that killing a Jedi with a blaster is "easy". Coleman Trebor was 100 % focusing on Dooku so basically Jango was shooting him "off guard".
Also notice that Lucas himself in the TPM commentary said it's basically impossible for a non-force-user to kill a Jedi in direct combat. And all situations we see Jedi getting killed by non-force-users they are:

a) caught off guard (Coleman Trebor killed by Jango Fett)
b) horribly outnumbered (Geonosis)
c) shot by heavy weapons (Geonosis)
d) killed in "non direct" ways (gas, explosives and so on...)



An entire army of Jedi ? Hardly...and duelling Jedi with a short lightsaber and then shoot them from point blank range is still impressive...



First Nadd was not much of a "political" genious. He was a martial type of person. He failed his Jedi trials and immediatly killed his master. Nothing a "political" character would do.
Second: He did destroy the beast riders using Sith Magic ON HIS OWN. So he basically wiped out an entire army of people riding on beasts. That doesn't make him special ? I've never seen any other force user entering a battle field and fight back and fight back an entire army with his force powers only.



I thought you read TOTJ ?

a)
It's told in TOTJ that Sadow was a member of the Sith priesthood. Yes. But in fact he and Ludo Kressh were both Sith Lords (under Sadow who was the Dark Lord of the Sith) and after Ragnos death they did fight for the title of the Dark Lord. Sadow manipulated the other Sith Lords to support him making him think the Republic wanted to attack the Sith Empire. So...Sadow was the Dark Lord of the Sith after Ragnos. Kressh later took that title from him before he was killed. So Kressh (being the Dark Lord now) exiled Sadow who was the Dark Lord before.

It's basically: Ajunta Pall (start of the Sith Empire) > Simus (before Ragnos) > Ragnos (until 5,000 BBY) > Sadow > Kressh. And that's the point were the Sith Empire disappeared.

b)
What the hell would a JEDI know about the history of the SITH considering the fact that they actually never had contact with the Sith Empire until the Great Hyperspace War ? They obviously didn't know that Sadow was still on Yavin 4 after the war - otherwise they would have killed him. The information given by the holocron about the Sith before the Great Hyperspace War is only speculation (because it simply can't be more than speculation).

TOTJ ("Golden Age of the Sith" and "The Fall of the Sith Empire" both contradict your idea and they were both written by the same author that did the rest of the TOTJ comics (Kevin J. Anderson) but later. So Anderson simply developed his own idea further or it just wasn't clear enough in the first TOTJ comics. Note that the last Kun comic was finished in 1996 and the both I mentioned were finished in 1997 and 1998.

My oh my how times have changed, the last time this thread was made everyone was convinced Kun would take this.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
First Nadd was not much of a "political" genious. He was a martial type of person. He failed his Jedi trials and immediatly killed his master. Nothing a "political" character would do.
Second: He did destroy the beast riders using Sith Magic ON HIS OWN. So he basically wiped out an entire army of people riding on beasts. That doesn't make him special ? I've never seen any other force user entering a battle field and fight back and fight back an entire army with his force powers only.

I don't have much to say about the other stuff, but I think you are incorrect on these.

First, Nadd failed the Jedi trials, Sidious would have too and he has political genious all over his face. Why wouldn't a politival person kill their master if they were going to leave anyway?

Second, you've never seen someone take an army with force powers? Exar took out the Massassi, who were able to give a Jedi a hard time in one-on-one. He also held off the Republic Fleet with just force powers. And greatest of all, he froze all the Jedi able to react to him attacking Vodo save one. He could have easily force the Beast Riders and then killed them all with his fist whicl they were frozen. Nadd taking out the Beast Riders is impressive, but Exar's done plenty of more impresive things.

Clarification: Out of TOTJ, I've only read Dark Lords of the Sith and The Sith War.

That being said, where in TOTJ is it said that Sadow ever became the Dark Lord? I've only ever heard of anything of the sort in KOTOR, which I've already expressed my opinion about. That and I've only heard of Ludo Kressh in KOTOR as well.

As well, in Dark Lords of the Sith it clearly states that Sadow was,

Tell me this, then. If Sadow was ever once the Dark Lord, why would he and his fellow pure-bloods be in rebellion against the Dark Lords collectively? That and it appears from the words used that only the fallen Jedi were eligible to become Lords of the Sith.

By the way, the Jedi at that time knew plenty Sith lore, much of it gleaned from the recently-freed Onderon and the artifacts Nadd left there. That and the Great Hyperspace War had already happened.

Furthermore, I never wrote Nadd was a "political genius." If you read what I wrote you'd see I argued that Nadd used a less subtle blend of Dark Side "persuasion" (displays of power) and political maneuvering to make himself the ruler. A sort of coup, if you will, much like Satal and Aleema Keto (Nadd's Krath disciples) did to take control of the Empress Teta system. (Read, multiple planets)

As well, like Glentract said, it's nothing special that Nadd was able to eliminate the beast riders. Exar could have easily done the same with the "freeze" sith spell he used on the Senate.

By the way, since when did Nadd fight an "army of Jedi?" From what I understand, and from the introduction in Dark Lords of the Sith, Nadd had taken over Onderon without Jedi interference (inasmuch as the Republic was unaware of Onderon's existence) and ruled until he died, leaving behind his descendants which ruled Onderon (among them King Ommin and Queen Amanda). He controlled these descendants in spirit form. Four hundred years after Nadd's arrival on Onderon, Master Arca brought a band of Jedi including Dace Diath, Tott Doneeta, Shoanes Culu, Oss Wilum, Cay and Ulic Qel-Droma, Qrrl Toq, and Nomi Sunrider to liberate Onderon (recently discovered by the Republic) from the Dark Side legacy of Freedon Nadd.

That and the fact that KOTOR is notorious for contradicting other, earlier sources of the Star Wars mythos makes the "Freedon Nadd's blaster skills" point a moot one.

Ah, I've found the answer myself. I concede the point that Naga became the Dark Lord, though I'm confused inasmuch as it says that Naga was a half-blood. Why Kevin J. Anderson would contradict himself is beyond me. As well, Ludo Kressh is a character that's not exclusive to KOTOR.

However, I maintain all my other points, especially those about Nadd and the fact that Jedi knew a great deal about the Sith and their Empire.

By the way, since when did Nadd fight an "army of Jedi?" From what I understand, and from the introduction in Dark Lords of the Sith, Nadd had taken over Onderon without Jedi interference (inasmuch as the Republic was unaware of Onderon's existence) and ruled until he died, leaving behind his descendants which ruled Onderon (among them King Ommin and Queen Amanda). He controlled these descendants in spirit form. Four hundred years after Nadd's arrival on Onderon, Master Arca brought a band of Jedi including Dace Diath, Tott Doneeta, Shoanes Culu, Oss Wilum, Cay and Ulic Qel-Droma, Qrrl Toq, and Nomi Sunrider to liberate Onderon (recently discovered by the Republic) from the Dark Side legacy of Freedon Nadd.

Unless I'm gravely mistaken, Nadd fell against the army of Jedi. Similarly to Exar Kun, except that he actually stood toe-to-toe with them. It was during the climax of the battle that he transferred his spirit into an amulet, one that Exar would come across in times to come. I'm not positive on this, but I'm quite sure of it.

Exar's amulet was Sadow's. The amulet Nadd was linked to stayed with his descendants. (Why would the Jedi have left them alive if they fought Nadd? And why would they leave them to rule Onderon only to return centuries later to root them and Nadd's spirit out?)

I'm fairly certain Nadd died naturally.

Bump.

Bump

Ludo Kressh was also the Dark Lord at the time Sadow was fighting his hyperspace war.

Originally posted by Rayvann
Bump

Apparently an attempt at:

Ad hominem tu quoque - This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that a person's claim is false because 1) it is inconsistent with something else a person has said or 2) what a person says is inconsistent with her actions. This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
3. Therefore X is false.

The fact that a person makes inconsistent claims does not make any particular claim he makes false (although of any pair of inconsistent claims only one can be true - but both can be false). Also, the fact that a person's claims are not consistent with his actions might indicate that the person is a hypocrite but this does not prove his claims are false.

You can't possibly still be typing..

Originally posted by IKC
Apparently an attempt at:

Ad hominem tu quoque - This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that a person's claim is false because 1) it is inconsistent with something else a person has said or 2) what a person says is inconsistent with her actions. This type of "argument" has the following form:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B asserts that A's actions or past claims are inconsistent with the truth of claim X.
3. Therefore X is false.

The fact that a person makes inconsistent claims does not make any particular claim he makes false (although of any pair of inconsistent claims only one can be true - but both can be false). Also, the fact that a person's claims are not consistent with his actions might indicate that the person is a hypocrite but this does not prove his claims are false.
WTF?

Yup.. I think IKC needs a nap.

No... I'm just confused as to why he typed all that up over the word "bump".

Originally posted by Rayvann
WTF?

Please. I'm not blind.

Originally posted by IKC
Please. I'm not blind.

Whatever...

IKC take your pills and go to sleep, you're losing your mind as time progresses.

Any special reason why you got rid of the second quote in your sig?

Guess we can't appear too biased, can we?

Originally posted by tdtd
IKC take your pills and go to sleep, you're losing your mind as time progresses.

Ad hominem.

accurate statement.

Begging the question.

Denial.

Originally posted by IKC
Any special reason why you got rid of the second quote in your sig?

Guess we can't appear too biased, can we?

At these forums? This place is filled with rabid dogs hungry to kill the word bias.

IKC is talking about Bias? I'll have him look up the word hypocricy the next time he copies the dictionary, unless he's fgured out he's made a fool out of himself and went to bed. I'm done with him, it's becoming too easy and I don't want to anger Rex who's going to wake up to 10+ pages of redundant crap. I hope he gets a good night's rest.

Originally posted by Rayvann
At these forums? This place is filled with rabid dogs hungry to kill the word bias.

So that's a yes.



Hasty generalization

Begging the question



Ad hominem

Begging the question

Straw man

Originally posted by IKC
So that's a yes.



Hasty generalization

Begging the question



Ad hominem

Begging the question

Straw man


Enough said, enjoy the reading Rex, enjoy your night on the forum IKC, it's been a pleasure embarassing you, good night my love.

Ad hominem

Begging the question

Appeal to ridicule