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someone has probably started a thread on this already, but could dumbledore have created a horocrux for himself. This may explain why he stopped harry from doing anything and why he never questioned snapes loyalty.

no......it can't be because dumbledore isn't a ,murderer, the only way 2 make a horcrux is to kill someone. Besides dumbledore is strongly against them, as slughorn explains in the pensieve.

I arie with allofyousuckkk

u never no he might have killed someone in a duel

Originally posted by Emily_depp
u never no he might have killed someone in a duel
He 'vanquished' some Dark wizard in the '40's, remember? Read the first book again.

oh yeah!!!!

Listen Dumbeldore is not going to come back. Maybe if you read the book again you wil find out. He did not make a Horcrux.

At the bottom of page 583 'The Phoenix Lament'

In silence they ascended the moving spiral staircase and entered the circular office. He did not know what he had expected: that the room would be draped in black, perhaps, or even that Dumbledore's body might be lying there. In fact, it looked almost exactly as it had done when he and Dumbeldore had left it mere hours previously: the silver instruments whirring and puffing on their spindle-legged tables, Gryffindor's sword in it's glass case gleaming in the moonlight, the Sorting Hat on the shelf behind the desk. But Fawkes's perch stood empty: he was still crying his lament to the grounds. And a new portrait had joined the ranks of the dead headmasters and headmistresses of Hogwarts ... Dumbledore was slumbering in a golden frame over the desk, his half-moon spectacles perched upon his crooked nose, looking peaceful and untroubled.
After glancing once at this portrait, Professor McGonagall made and odd movement as though steeling herself, than rounded the desk to look at Harry, her face taut and lined.

Oh and i dont think Dumbledore will be a great use to Harry in the next book.

ok dudes. dumbledore is NOT dead.
the avada does not send you flying back into the air.
snape was sayin avada kedavra and didnt mean it. REMEMBER WHAT MOODY SAYS, AND BELLATRIX, YOU NEED TO MEAN THEM. but he was nonverbally saying something else, thats why dumbledore flew back.
fawkes probably caught him as he fell or he did a simple charm to make himself safe from the impact.
thats why nonverbal spells were mentioned so much in this book.
snape was angry because he didnt want to hurt dumbledore when he sent him flying back.,
hagrid heard them arguing that snape didnt want to do somthing but dumby said he had to.
about the unbreakable vow, who said there wasnt a time limit.
he did everything he could to "help" draco but he wouldnt let snape help him.
he obviously lied to narcissa and bellatrix after he looked into her mind since it was all she could think about and pretended voldy told him about the plan. so the plan he and dumbledore made would work, so snape would be trusted by voldy when he """"kills"""" dumbledore, remaining a spy for dumby ..

tell me if u need more convincing

Another dumbledore thread... great... oh, and he is dead people. Please, just let him rest. He deserves a break after dealing with Harry and his problems for 6 years. Dumbledore R.I.P. man.

he is dead, time to face the music...but i do have a long...tiresome....gruesome theory....

just let it go DD wanted to die....let it go......he's not coming back! JUST ACCECT THAT FOR MERLIN AND DUMBLEDORE'S SAKE!!!

only evil people make hocrox

but doesn't mean DD didn't he had defeated Grimwauld.

Originally posted by danagrint
only evil people make hocrox Anyone can make horcruxes!

that too

horcruxes are made with the supreme act of evil i.e killing

i don't think it's a supreme act of evil to kill someone in self defence, acidentally killing someone or killing someone who is a danger to society. it's got to be spiteful, pre meditated and intended for personal gain

thats my thought




nice theory, i guess we'll have to see when book 7 comes out

Just face it, DUMBLEDORE IS DEAD!!!!!!

This debate can branch off to many different parts, so I want us to explore those different avenues. So the mystery behind Dumbledores death. What did you think of Dumbeldore dying? Did he become an Horcrux? Here are a few more questions to explore provided by the lovely hhhhr:

Originally posted by hhhhr
did ddor became a horcrux? was that the curse on the ring? could it be the reason for his death by snape? since snape was the only one aware of it? and didn't ddor and snape had an argument about something snape was asked to do but he didn't want to do it? could the task be killing ddor? sorry but his death is bugging me. oh and yes i agree with the other guy, did ddor have a horcrux?

So let's get to it! I'll start off with my thoughts:

Personally, I thought Dumbeldore's death was wasted and predictable. I knew when JK killed Sirius that Dumbledore was the next to die. JK wants to kill everyone whose close to Harry to see how Harry will deal with his problems alone, Sirius his father-figure, Dumbledore his mentor and friend. Secondly, I hated that she did it! Dumbledore pleading to Snape? C'mon now! How low can we get?

I was hoping for some type of twist, like maybe Dumbledore really isn't dead and faked his death for some really good reason. As for Dumbledore being an horcrux, I'm not sure I go for that. If killing people is the only way to get an horcrux, then I'd say no, Dumbledore doesn't have one. Then again, we don't know if Dumbledore ever killed someone before. . .it could be for self denfense, I dunno.

Your thoughts?

i think he is dead, yet he could be alive. his death i think was planned, not by accident, and i don't think it was fake. if anyone wants to hear my theory i shall wait, because it is long tiresome and gruesome.

I don't think Dumbledore died now, because one of my friends stated that, when Snape said avada kevadra, he didn't mean it because Dumbleodre flew backwards(I think) and I don't think your supposed to fly backwards when the killing curse was said on you

that's a good thought danagrint.

thanks but who knows what J.K. rowling will do next...

your welcome. true true true...

Originally posted by Saratn
i think he is dead, yet he could be alive. his death i think was planned, not by accident, and i don't think it was fake. if anyone wants to hear my theory i shall wait, because it is long tiresome and gruesome.

I agree fully. I'm nintey-nine point nine nine nine percent sure that he's dead...

lol the other 0.0001 percent is

I, personally, think he is dead. He couldn't have survived the fall damn, even if Snape didn't use the curse correctly.

(OT, Rogue, did we vote this? I don't remember voting for some reason...)

the .0001 or what ever amount of zeroes it was counts towards my insanity.
Dumbledore is either dead or alive. but which is it?
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me...

i do think dumby is dead but it still doesn't stop that from being a good theory

Seriously, that "he shouldn't have flown backwards' idea is the most desperate Potter idea I have ever heard. He fllew back because of drama, and then fell out of a huge tower, afetr being hit by a clearly spoken killing curse.

He's dead, get used to it.

^ hear,hear.

rest in peace man

look it's a book it might be possible it might not we just got to wait till book 7

Originally posted by The Phantom
I, personally, think he is dead. He couldn't have survived the fall damn, even if Snape didn't use the curse correctly.

(OT, Rogue, did we vote this? I don't remember voting for some reason...)

Good Point But if you remember harry has fallen alot farther and is still living.

As for the people who keep bringing up their "he's still alive" theories, I do have to give them credit. They've done some fine analization (real word?!) but I just can't bring myself to believe that Dumbledore is still out walkin and talkin somewhere.

but dumbledore slowed him down magically some how

well that all depends doesn't it? I see your point though. I'm of the opinion that Snape killed Dumbledore but DD asked him too. I don't believe DD is alive either

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Seriously, that "he shouldn't have flown backwards' idea is the most desperate Potter idea I have ever heard. He fllew back because of drama, and then fell out of a huge tower, afetr being hit by a clearly spoken killing curse.

He's dead, get used to it.

He has a very good point. The whole idea is kinda of desperate. You'll keep on harping about that one scene. DD IS DEAD

I think DD is dead, but he planned his death. He knew he had to die to save the Malfoy's I belive. Or maybe not, whatever.

I dislike those "it is a book, anything can happen" points as well. Because, well, sure, of course it can. Rowling can decide that Hogwarts is actually made out of green jelly and the whole thing has been set on Pluto the whole time if she wants. The author can change or re-do ANYTHING.

But on that basis, any speculation would be effectively useless. All we can do is comment on what has been presented so far. And based on that... DD is as dead as a doornail.

Spin out reasons as to why this is not a bad thing, or why he planned it like that, all you like- but there is little ground in claiming he isn't actually dead. And there is no need to give him a damn Gandalf complex either.

A lot of the desire to see him still alive is because people want Snape to be a good guy, basically.

Very well then, let's have it all out here, As this is the official debate thread, let's hear what is now, basically, the dominant view- that it was a plan of Dumbledore's. Let's hear all the reasons and see if they can be attacked. Else there won't be much debate.

Just a random idea/thought. I am not saying this is what i believe. Just a possibility which i would like to hear opinions on..

What if dumbledore is an animagus of a phoenix, and can be reborn?

At the funeral (when his body suddenly erupted into flames)

Wow! NOW PEOPLE GET YELLED AT FOR HAVING AN OPIONIN

Just had a thought, maybe Dumbledore willingly killed himself by drinking the potion and then made it look like snape had taken him out? Perhaps Snape didn't cast a real death curse at all. Either way, I am certain Dumbledore is dead, whether by snapes hand or not. Several of the characters saw his body, and they even buried him, it really makes no sense for him to fake his death.

well look at it this way zombieman... couldent DD have staged his death in order to gain an upper hand on the dark lord... you know snape could have used one of the spells that you dont have to say out loud... i mean it would make some sence... but tell you the truth i think he is dead, its up to harry now.

y would he let those kids be attacked?

But what would he gain from having Harry and co thinking he's dead? Nothing it only makes things tougher for them.

Why would he stage the death? that would be pointless. He saved snapes & malfoys lives by giving up his own. I think he knew that the potion would kill him, but he thought he had to take it in order to get the horcrux. I think dumbledore told snape to kill him. I mean, JK wouldn't have left so many ways for us to come up with theories. If snape was bad, she would have just made him kill him - strait off easy peasy. But nooo, she made it possible for us to think that snape is actually good - and leaving herself the opertunity to also explain to us in the next book that he is good.
That is my theory - i will not go into detail because it has been said countless times..
No one has said anything about my phoenix idea.... anyone wanna share their opinions on it?

y would DD allow snape to perform an unforgivable curse if it was so DD could die. if snape was good why would DD allow him to risk a life sentence in Azkaban

If dumbledore didn't die then Snape would have died (unbreakable vow) and draco and his family would have aswell (Voldy would hunt them down). If the potion was going to kill DD anyway, DD could have told Snape to kill him. Remember DD was overheard telling snape to do it even if he didnt want to (or something like that). DD knew the potion would kill him, so made snape kill him - simple. Snape wouldnt go to azkaban - he's on the run - the guys to clever to get caught. and plus azkaban will like not exist anymore soon. Everyone knows all the death eaters will break out. Snape among them having proved to voldy he is a death eater. And snape would probably turn to the good side right at the end and save the day having tricked everyone into believing he's bad.
I think that explains my views..
Ohhh, the best theory i heard was the one where dd made snape do the unbreakable vow thing to prove that snape is really a good guy. Makes sense...

PPl - Dumbledore=Pheonix??

We are getting a lot of the same ideas thrown out here. We have not the slightest bit of evidence that Dumbledore expected the nature of that potion in advance- I think it is rather silly to assume he did.

That being the case, unless DD was dying of something else, the "did it because he was dying anyway" idea doesn't work.

People should bear in mind the point mentioned above that the Death Eaters could have killed a whole lot of kids in their attack. Do people really think Dumbledore planned things that way?

Originally posted by jedi sarah
y would DD allow snape to perform an unforgivable curse if it was so DD could die. if snape was good why would DD allow him to risk a life sentence in Azkaban

not to great at grammar


i'll try again



if dumbledore asked snape to kill him, why would he allow snape to perform an unforgivable curse to kill dumbledore which potentially could land snape in azkaban for life. i'm sure snape wouldn't want to go to azkaban for life and dumbledore wouldn't want snape to go either (if snape was good of course)

i like what the mod(rogue) said bout exploring different parts of the dumbledore thread,lyk thinking about the curse on the ring....

My thoughts on this is that the curse put upon the ring was very ancient magic ,voldemort would not protect these things with silly charms or defensive spells it would have to be strong magic.
My guess is that its some sort of strong wilting curse that makes whatever comes in contact with it die.
i also think tht the curse is likely to be mentioned in the hbp or in previous books ,some small hint as to what this curse is or where it came from .

i think that seeing as snape did that unforgivable curse thingy that he couldnt not kill dumbledore beacause that could have been what he promised to do for draco and his mother....if he didnt do it, he would have died, and i think dumbledore knows harry needs snape for something...so when dumbledore was saying "please" to snape maube he was saying, in secret words "you have to kill me..." kind of thing....if you know what i mean...but ya, i think snape had to kill dumbledore to make himself look convinceing and dumbledore was willing to sacrifice himself in order to keep snapes cover....and so on....but ya, thats just my view, your guys' sound pretty interesting too

I think Dumbledore had to die. The green liquid qas teh hory-thingy, not the locket. Dumbledore had to die to destory it. I'm sad that Harry never got him socks.

Originally posted by dansdaman
i think that seeing as snape did that unforgivable curse thingy that he couldnt not kill dumbledore beacause that could have been what he promised to do for draco and his mother....if he didnt do it, he would have died, and i think dumbledore knows harry needs snape for something...so when dumbledore was saying "please" to snape maube he was saying, in secret words "you have to kill me..." kind of thing....if you know what i mean...but ya, i think snape had to kill dumbledore to make himself look convinceing and dumbledore was willing to sacrifice himself in order to keep snapes cover....and so on....but ya, thats just my view, your guys' sound pretty interesting too

Again- why would he have to say 'please' in order to get Snape to do something that he was pretty much doing anyway? Snape showed no confusion or hesitation.

DD could not have made a horcrux, not becaus he never killed anyone, he might ha, but becaus it RIPS YOUR SOUL IN TWO, that is messed up DD would not rip his own soul (or anyone else's soul) in two it is violent and unnatural, by destorying the ring the part of Voldemorts soul might have moved into DDs hand, Snape might have been ordered to kill him

he did show hesitation...he waited a while

It might not have been Dumbledore

there is a couldrenful of polyjuce potion in the school

also avada kadevra never leaves a mark but harry wiped some blood from his face

Originally posted by R.E.B_IS....
also avada kadevra never leaves a mark but harry wiped some blood from his face i don't remember harry wiping blood, but mabey i'm forgetting. oh, i don't know, Dumbeldore is such a big charcter and he at least has to have a good portion of a part in harry's life. i mean he brought him to his aunt's and uncle's, he gave him private lessons, and he took him on a mission. he is like a father to harry, and even more. but like yall said, mabey snape didn't want to kill him, but also the book said, "snape killed him, said harry. i was there, i saw it. we arrived back on the Astronomy Tower because that is were the mark was.Dumbledore was weak, he was ill,but i think he realized it was a trap when we heard footsteps running up the stairs. he immobilized me, i couldn't do anything i was under the invisibilty cloak-malfoy throught the door and disarmed him-Hermonie clapped her hand to her mouth and Ron groaned. Luna's mouth trembled.-more Death Eaters arrived-and than Snape did it the Advada Kedavra.' so they were on the tower and the curse has a lot of power so it makes sense for DD to fall off. mabey harry was wipping blood from the fall. that is my opion

well its a proven fact that people that are dead do not bleed and if DD was killed by the curse he wouldent have bled when he hit the ground... thats just a option....

but it is a book so anything could happen....

Just a random thought i just had.....what if dumbledore knew what the potion was ..the one he drank lookin for the horcrux ...maybe it was immortality potion?? thts y he let snape kill him and the avada kedavra curse interacted with the potion an thats why dumbledore flew back but he fell from a height so he died anyway ...which makes it kinda pointless but anyway it was a quick thought that popped into my head thought i would share it even though it sucks

Ah yes, because obviously. Voldemort defended one of his valuable Horcruxes with... an immortality potion? And then forgot to drink it himself, I suppose.

Nice to see insane hope is still alive and well...

its a pretty good thought...but i doubt a fall from a building could kill dumbledore when he can defeat some of the most powerful things in the wizarding world....but nice thinking!

Yeah, but he had his wand when he did that.

Face it= Dumbledore, damn dead, doornailed deceased, definite denoument...

DEAD!

Has anyone realised how many Pheonix references JK has put in the book? eg. Order of the Pheonix, DD's pet Pheonix and pheonixs come back from the dead, they rise from the flames and DD was cremated and harry did think that he might have seen a pheonix flying out from the fire......

Originally posted by jessblack
Has anyone realised how many Pheonix references JK has put in the book? eg. Order of the Pheonix, DD's pet Pheonix and pheonixs come back from the dead, they rise from the flames and DD was cremated and harry did think that he might have seen a pheonix flying out from the fire......
that would be kinda cool... but i dont think so. maybe....

Originally posted by jessblack
Has anyone realised how many Pheonix references JK has put in the book? eg. Order of the Pheonix, DD's pet Pheonix and pheonixs come back from the dead, they rise from the flames and DD was cremated and harry did think that he might have seen a pheonix flying out from the fire......

OMG, what a nice brand new original idea. And i haven't mentioned that like 5 times in this thread already!! Grrrrr
Well, at least someone else is thinking about this idea. Now maybe others will share their thoughts.....

yeah that could be a possibility... but i dunno like i said before anything can happen its a book.

well i know in my heart sad as it may be to hear! tht dumbledore if defo dead for sure...
although im sure there will be like a "dumbledores spirit lives on in the heart of phoenix" thing in book 7

well my opinion was that perhaps dumbledore had done something like make a double of himself...because, it was very strange situation for three reasons 1.dumbledore told harry he needed his invisibility cloak for what...just to let madame rosmerta no that he was goin somewhere alone...yeah right! 2.dumbledore froze harry while he knew that draco was the only one coming...harry could have taken him! 3.snape trust has always been a debatable isue...but i dont beleive that dumbledore is so trusting that he would not see that snape was in cohorts with the dark side...it was a scam!...so in my opinion i beleive dumbledor did this to strengthen harry's desire to desroy the dark arts and v...v..oldemorts (twitches) followers.so maybe if harry wanted to go after snape and voldy he will want to be stronger AND want to collect the horocruxes

well i dont think DD would ever attack a student.... thats a possibly why he dident atack draco but there is many different opinions and every one thinks there right....

i just thought of somthing some one was telling me that you couldent aperate in school.... ok.... i just got through reading that the kids are having lessons in school..... the reson this came up is i thought that mybe DD would still be alive... and that he aperiated out of the cofin at his funeral by taking down the aperate charm surounding the school ... the reply was y would DD let the protection of the school down, that death eaters would be all over them... but if he let it down for the students to learn how to aperate then they would have done it then.... just a radom idea.. also if death eater came to that big of a funeral it would be a death wish....

but guys JK Rowling said she would KILL some important character off in the sixth book....so doesnt that mean hes gone, dead...fineto?.....i want him back as much as anyone, but the guy is so dead

yeah the guys dead...but i think there will be references about him in the next book ...phoenix...portrait ...etc and so on..i think hes dead but i think he is still going to play a part in the next book dead or alive?? (possible harry potter 7 title) harry potter dead or alive!!(its probs not jus messin around tho)

Originally posted by dumbyaintdead
fawkes probably caught him as he fell or he did a simple charm to make himself safe from the impact.


That explains perfectly why Dumbledore was in his casket.

Originally posted by Solo
That explains perfectly why Dumbledore was in his casket.
Actually, I take that back. All of the books revolved around Harry questioning on Snape being bad. Which means that he probably isn't. Which means that Dumbledore probably isn't dead. I mean you'd think if they can do all this crazy shit, they could make a fake dead body that looks like Dumbledore.

There's something strange going on for sure.

okay! DUMBLEDORE IS ****** DEAD!!!!! if your saying he faced dead cause he had a horcrux, then why does he have to know all about it in book 6? why did he and harry studied voldemort and his horcrux when he already had it on his mind? and people, maybe the reason he chose to die is yet to be revealed and im pretty sure its a good one. snape didnt betray him, he could be following orders from dumbledore since the very beggining. remember when dumbledore's PLEADING? he's pleading for snape to obey his order's and that is to KILL HIM!!!

yeah we all know that its obvious...
dumbledore let snape kill him because he knew that draco couldnt kill him... snape had to .. in order to save draco
dumbledore would not let a student die through his cause ..(even if that student is an evil ****) snape told dumbledore about dracos mission to kill dumbledore and tolt him about how he made the unbreakable vow! so dumbledore told him that if the situation arises that snape must kill him to protect draco!!

If Dumbledore had created a horcrux he would no longer be capable of a good thought and would have become physically bestial.

really..oh..that's makes sense cause it's realy evil to make a horecrux

Dumbledore lives,for one apart from at the bottom of the tower when do we ever see Dumbledores body at the funeral?! Alot of theories that the green liquid is the Draught of Living Death or something like that, so couldn't Dumbledore have been sleeping at that point, also the chapter Pheonix Laments, the Phoenix tears have healing powers so couldn't Fakwes have been trying to resucitate him, which is why it cried for so long?! I think Dumbledore will remain dead to everyone but Snape until, Harry meets Snape then the truth will come out!

I think Dumbledore dying in the end of the book was a load of crap seeing as Dumbledore was one of the main characters through all of the books. My step brother and I are wondering what the seventh book will be about get back to me if u have any information on this.

i think dumbledore dying was unavoidable, come to think of it how else would harry spread his wings. he needs to get out there sometimes, and if they just keep protecting him, he can't do what he has too. he usually has the right idea about what is going on but everybody he talks to keep ignoring his points, now that there really isn't anyone to really talk to he can do what he thinks is right.

or even possibly what is wrong...

Actully, I personally dont care if hes dead or not, Harry needed 2 learn 2 cope w/o him. Besides it hurt WAY more when Sirius died than Dumbledor. But all that aside, yes i do belive hes dead.

I think that Snape is on Dumbledore's side instead of Voldemorts. Whenever Dumbledore pleaded to Snape, it was for him to kill him. Dumbledore knew that at this point, when he has taught Harry everything he needs to know, that Snape was more important in the battle to defeat Voldemort. If snape wouldn't have killed Dumbledore then Snape would have died because of the unbreakable vow that he made with Narcia Malfoy. And if Snape would have died, then they wouldnt have anymore spies for Voldemort and they wouldn't be able to find out what he's doing as easily. Dumbledore's death by Snape also "proved" to the death eaters watching that he was on Voldemort's Side.

Anyway...

i agree with Henrik1991, on the other hand you never know what might happen in the 7th book. But i think dumbledore is now dead, BUT
remember that portraits can talk, so dumbledore will still be able to give Harry advice.

DD is def. dead. Dead Dead Dead...he can't get any deader or any un-deader. Well that wat I think anyway

Snape..is he evil? I have nooo idea. Tho I think there is a lot more to the whole him killing DD n being evil n stuff then wat we have be shown so far.

i think that DD is dead now but he planed it.. if he is the most powerfull wizard he could have unarmed Draco before Draco unarmed DD. duh but DD sacraficed his life for snape... snape made the unbreadable vow so that means it would have killed Snape if Snape did not kill DD, when DD said no dont in the book he knew Snape wasent going to kill him, and him saying no was just telling snape that snape is a valuable spi to voldy and the good guys cant afford to loose him.... if snape was such a bad person when harry was chaseing after him he would of killed harry... and he also stoped harry from using an unforgiveable curse... it all makes since.... i think

Snape IS evil!... or else i don't think he would help Drago with hes mission

Originally posted by Henrik1991
Snape IS evil!... or else i don't think he would help Drago with hes mission
well the thing is draco isn't evil, he couldn't kill dd and snape did it so he wouldn't have to.

forgive me, but this is very long...
i cried when i read dumbledore's death scene. however, i have since reread the whole series, and i do not believe that dumbledore is dead. the theory that dumbledore asked snape to kill him is all well and good, but why? why should snape kill dumbledore when snape could just as easily pretend to kill dumbledore, leaving dumbledore alive and able to continue his work against voldemort without having to take care of hogwarts (since everyone believes he is dead, there will obviously be a new headmaster/mistress) or continue to help harry? not to mention that dumbledore would be able to operate much more easily if voldemort and the death eaters believed him dead. i firmly believe that dumbledore froze harry on the tower not to protect him (as someone has said in this forum already, harry could have taken draco, especially with draco so scared of what he was supposed to do) but to prevent him from interfering in his "death scene" which had been carefully planned out with snape. i don't think anyone has mentioned dumbledore's big speech to draco about how the order (the "right side" could hide him so completely that he needn't fear voldemort. "'he cannot kill you if you are already dead. come over to the right side, draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. what is more, i can send members of the order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise.'" (p.592). dumbledore even says "it is my mercy, and not yours, that matters now." if dumbledore was about to die, and he knew it, why would he be saying his mercy mattered? and if the order could hide draco, someone who had never done anything positive in the fight against voldemort, and even his mother, why could they not hide dumbledore, a figure of the utmost importance in the war against voldemort? the answer is, they could hide dumbledore, they could make everyone believe he was dead, and that's exactly what they did. snape is not evil; even as he was running from the school, he was helping harry and giving him advice: "blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, potter!" (p. 603). he's trying to help harry to know what he needs to work on before facing voldemort. one thing that struck me was how angry snape was at being called a coward. imagine being in his position, risking your life every day to help the cause you believed in, to help rid the world of voldemort, all the while educating and protecting ungrateful students, orchestrating a huge fake death, keeping your true thoughts hidden from the most evil wizard of all time at huge personal risk, risking making a "fake" unbreakable vow, and being called a coward. wouldn't you want to shout at the top of your lungs that you were on the good side? that you weren't a coward at all? that's why snape was so furious, in so much pain (p. 604) at being called a coward. you may have noticed i said snape made a "fake" unbreakable vow. during the process of making the vow, snape promises to watch over draco and protect him from harm with no hesitation at all. however, when narcissa asks him to "carry out the deed" if draco can't do it, his hand twitches, and he hesitates. i think this is significant. whether i'm right or not, we'll see in book seven. snape is a very good occlumens, several people say so in this book, and is a very good actor. there is no reason to believe that he and dumbledore could not have pulled off a fake death, nor is there reason to believe that they wouldn't have. while i've accepted that sirius is indeed dead, i'm hoping that book seven will see some of these dumbledore/snape theories proven. i also find the theory that dumbledore is an animagus phoenix very interesting, i'll do some thinking about that one too, now i've read it.
i think that's all of my theory for now. could somebody point me to the discussion on regulus black, how it came about that he found the horcrux, and what happened to the locket after it was found at grimmauld place?

The reason that Snape helped Draco Malfoy with his mission was because he is a spy for dumbledore. If he would've declined the unbreakable vow, then they would know for sure that he was on Dumbledores side considering bellatrix lestrange already thought he was.

good god finaly some one who thinks like i do!!!!!!!!!!! i noticed the exact same things in the book its kinda obvious that snape was helping harry i mean come on how much more obvious could it get.... he was trying to help harry and tell him to use nonverble spells..... if harry just anounces what his attack is he will loose.......... also if snape was so bad whould he have stoped harry from using an unforgiveable curse... and the who thing with DD not dead i believe think about it, it would set up for a total surprise attack...... and surprise is someones best wepon... So i think that DD went looking for the last and final horcruxes and then is going to launch an attack on the dark Lord or when harry meets the dark lord... he could protect harry....... now my words are geting twisted i beter stop

At least you know what your talking about. Snape is innocent after all and it's not that hard to see that. JK did say that there was more to Snape than meets the eye. I think that right there gives evidence to Snape's innocence.

I personally don't think that DD is dead. I also dont think he made a Horcrux. I agree with the fact that he went flying back. I may just be hoping more than anything because i really liked DD. By the way im new. Actually just started my thingy like four minutes ago. Anywasy those are my thoughts. I have a question though any one think Ron and Hermione are gonna hook up.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Again- why would he have to say 'please' in order to get Snape to do something that he was pretty much doing anyway? Snape showed no confusion or hesitation.

Ok I think that him saying "Please" had nothing to do with killing him I don't think Snape performed the part of the vow to kill Dumbledore because just before Narcissa asks him to (in the vow) it says that his hand twitched why would Rowling give us that little bit of information. Now with that said What would be the best way to get Voldemort to come out intot he open?? If Dumbledore appeared to be gone cause we all know it's been in every book almost that the only wizard Voldemort fears is Dumbldore. I think he said please because he was making Snape return to the Dark Lord as a spy and Snape didn't want to. I could be wrong and he could be dead but it was in the book that he had an ironclad reason for trusting Snape and I just don't think him regretting what he'd done was good enough reason for Dumbldore to trust him. Well I've been dying to share that little theory even if it is wrong.

JKR has said many times that once a character is dead...that character is dead. NO COMING BACK! End of story. I don't want him to be dead either, but he is. AD said himself that Harry had to face Voldemort.

hello snape had to kill DD he made the umbreakable vow.... and that ment he had to help draco kill DD..... if snape had not done it then that would mean that the order would loose a vary important spi.... it makes sence, when harry was chasing snape... snape gave him a hint.... i dont remember what he said exactly but he was telling harry to work on his noverbal spells......... and snape also stoped harry from using an unforgiveable curse.... if he was agenst harry he would have let harry use it... harry would have went to azkaban and harry would be a sitting duck in a cell, and prisions are made to stop people from excaping not to stop people form breaking in.... so if any one has any objections pleas let me know....

WHAT DUMBLEDORE DIED??!!! icon5 icon5

I knew I shouldn't have come in here.... weep












































Just kidding!


couldn't help myself....

I think snape hit him with the exspelyomis. like harry did him in POA.
it made snape fly back and up on the bed. snape was good at casting spells with out saying it.

ok... what if dumbledoor didn't die...
instead he used a polyjuice potion on his phoenix...
the phoenix = looks like dumbledoor
snape uses killing curse on phoenix not dumbledoor (snape has completed his vow... he has killed "dumbledoor"
phoenix burned instead of dumbledoor
that is why a phoenix flies out of the fire when dumbledoor is cremated...
either this... or what if dumbledoor used the potion that makes it look like you are dead... and snape did not use the killing curse properly (remember when potter tried to use the crucio (pain one) and failed miserably...)... that way it would look to harry (and others) like he was dead after he fell...

Nah, Dumbledore is dead. Not as dead as Black, but still dead. And I'm not sure if Snape really bad or not. I'm leaning toward him being evil, but what he said in the very beginning of the book makes me wonder. Because he said that he didn't kill Harry in the beginning because he wanted to see if Harry could be the new dark lord. But that doesn't make any sense because Snape just hated Harry's father so much that I can't see him wanting to follow his son for any reason.

Originally posted by Makae
Nah, Dumbledore is dead. Not as dead as Black, but still dead. And I'm not sure if Snape really bad or not. I'm leaning toward him being evil, but what he said in the very beginning of the book makes me wonder. Because he said that he didn't kill Harry in the beginning because he wanted to see if Harry could be the new dark lord. But that doesn't make any sense because Snape just hated Harry's father so much that I can't see him wanting to follow his son for any reason.
"Tis true, gotoDumbledoreisnotdead.com
i also agree on the snape being evil thingy, but Dumbledore is alive, read the site, i also agree on the harry-dark lord thing the little Half-Blood Prince so n' so

i dont think snape is evil,,, i think DD new what had to be done.. DD is dead. sadly he is... but i think snape is not evil he stoped harry from usin the unforgivalbe curse... using the curse would give u a one way ticket to askaban... and if snape was evil dont you think he would have captured Harry,,, since harry was practically at snapes mercy,, and take him to the dark lord.... not only that but snape also gave harry a vital clue.... he almost said it out load.... he told harry not to anounce his attackes.... another words to use nonverbal spells... thats the only way harry will succeed in defeating the dark lord... just thik about what i have said if any one dissagrees or has some input please send my a private message and let me know..

That's another good point. Snape could have done so much to Harry at that end bit there, but he seemed to be trying to teach him instead... very fishy. And Dumbledore had to die. Harry has to face Voldermort alone. It just had to happen that way. Sad, but true.

thank you

Just giving credit where credit is due.

After reading what the lot of you have said it has made me wonder myself what the truth is, because they said that in order to kill someone with the avada kedavra curse you were supposed to mean it, and if sanpe didn't want to do it he couldn't mean it, so the spell could not have worked maybe sent Dumbledore into a coma. But then there is other things that you guys have said that just...


YOU CONFUSE ME PEOPLE !!!!!

They never said that you had to mean it for Avada Kedavra to work. They only said it for the torture curse. Plus, Snape made a magical vow, and there is no fooling magic.

I went to that site and they make some very good points. Like, why didn't Fawkes try to heal Dumbledore? He did it for Harry when in Book 2 I think.

With everything going on, it would make sense for Dumbledore to be in hiding. Like him faking his death so that he can try and get to Voldey anomyously or something.

Originally posted by Makae
They never said that you had to mean it for Avada Kedavra to work. They only said it for the torture curse. Plus, Snape made a magical vow, and there is no fooling magic.

yeah he made a vow to help draco not kill DD i dont think he is dead the killing curse does not send ppl flying through the air and this year at hogwarts they were teaching the students non verbal spells so i reckon snape was saying one thing but doing another i dont know thats what i think i got a really big theory but i will save it for another time i want to hear more ideas to see if ppl r thinking along the same lines as me my mum reckons that harry is a horcruxes his scar anyway

The beginning of his vow was to help Draco. The last part of the vow way to do the job himself if it looked like Draco couldn't. And the disarming curse doesn't usually send people flying either, but it did in PoA. Dumbledore probably went flying because Snape was emotional when he cast the cusre.

Nice how many theories are posted here. Let me just add my personal theory.

First we have to take a look at the unbreakable vow. What did Snape swear ?

a) Watch over Malfoy when he's trying to carry out Voldemorts plans.
b) Protect Malfoy against all kinds of dangers / threats.
c) Kill DD himself if Draco is about to fail.

Now we know that breaking the unbreakable vow will result in the death of the person that is under it's influence meaning if Snape acts against one of the points he will die.
Now let's just think about the points b and c. The only real danger or threat to Draco is Voldemort himself and the only protection against this threat is Dumbledore. Now killing Dumbledore might result in breaking the second unbreakable vow but as we have seen Snape was still alive after doing that.
And the third unbreakable vow ? Where was Draco about to fail ? He had Dumbledore disarmed and there were 4 Death-eaters in the room for backup then you have Snape coming in and immediatly cursing Dumbledore without even waiting for Draco doing something.

But let's go back to the actual scene and have a look at it.
We have Harry and Dumbledore arriving with the magic brooms. Then DD freezes Harry and get's disarmed before talking to Draco but think about it.

- in OotP Dumbledore alone took out Fudge, Percy Weasley, Kingsley, Umbridge and Dawlish at once and he mentioned that he would easily be able to escape from Askaban. Draco would have had no chance to disarm him if Dumbledore didn't want to get disarmed.
- the hint that he will be able to escape from Askaban as well as the scene when he saves Harry in PoA have shown that Dumbledore is able to use spells without having his wand at hand (wandless magic). It's hinted again in the scene when Dumbledore tells Draco that now everything is up to his mercy.

And now think about the possibilities Dumbledore had in the scene even when the Deatheaters arrived. He had the two magic brooms up there that he could have used to escape from the tower. He had Harry hidden under his magic cape and I'm pretty sure that Harry could have taken out all the people in the room from his hidden position if Dumbledore lowered his spell. And we know that Dumbledore is able to lower Hogwarts protections to give people the ability to use Apparition within the school building meaing he could have used Disapparition to get away from the tower.

But he didn't do anything like that but instead waited for Snape coming. And DD didn't beg for mercy and he didn't beg for getting killed by Snape. Why should he ? If Snape had shown mercy then he wouldn't be able to spy on Voldemort and the Deatheaters any longer and as we have seen all the Deatheaters wanted Dumbledore dead.
The only thing that he could have begged for was that Snape should have continued his spy works for the Order of the Phoenix.

My personal theory:
I think Snape told Dumbledore about everything Malfoy was doing and he told Dumbledore about the unbreakable vow. Dumbledore knew that Malfoy won't be able to kill him and he knew that Snape will come which he utilized to fake his own death.

Now point one: The Avada Kedavra
Bellatrix Lestrange's own words in OotP:
"Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy? You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really cause pain--to enjoy it-- righteous anger won't hurt me for long..."

That means that Snape must have wanted to kill Dumbledore and he must have enjoyed killing him. We know that Snape started spying on Voldemort before Voldemort's fall and his hand twitched before giving the third unbreakable vow. I don't think he would hesitated a second if he enjoyed the idea having to kill Dumbledore or if he really wanted to do it.
Therefore we can say that the Avada Kedavra Snape used against Dumbledore didn't kill Dumbledore.

Next observation: Dumbledore flying backwards being hit by the curse and it seems like he was "standing in the air" before he actually fell down from the tower.

I think Snape used some nonverbal spell to get Dumbledore out of sight either a banishing charm (Flitwick was thrown across the room when Neville accidentially used it on him in GoF) or the Levitation charm just to cover that he didn't really kill Dumbledore.

Next observation: Dumbledore bleeding when he's found at the side of the tower.

As it was already pointed out: Dead people don't bleed. That means Dumbledore was still alive when he was lying there although he was injured by the fall. And here we have a perfect recycling of the scene when Harry fell down from his broomstick during the Quidditch-match against Hufflepuff in PoA. Dumbledore used wandless spell casting to stop Harry from falling down and although he managed to slower down Harry's fall, Harry was still injured through it. I think the same thing was happening here...Dumbledore slowed down his own fall but still the impact did hurt him enough to bleed and maybe break some bones - then Fawkes moved in and cried to heal him.

Next observations all from the funeral scene:
- we never see Dumbledore's body
- Harry sees a Phoenix flying away

I think Dumbledore used the flames as a cover up and then Fawkes carried him away. We have seen in OotP that Fawkes can simply disappear from Dumbledore's office although Hogwarts has anti-Appartion magic installed and Fawkes wasn't present at the funeral which seemed very odd to me since all creatures did show their respect for Dumbledore but Fawkes was missing.

Conclusion: I think Dumbledore faked his death to make Voldemort reveal himself and provoke Voldemort to make mistakes. The entire search for the Horcrux was senseless and I bet that Dumbledore knew there was no real Horcrux in that cave (R.A.B who removed / destroyed the Horcrux seems to be Sirius brother Regulus Black) and just wanted to show Harry what awaits him when trying to find the other Horcruxs. I don't think that Jo Rowling would kill Dumbledore in such a useless way (having himself weakened through the search for a Horcrux which wasn't even at the place, having Draco disarm him and then Snape killing him).

Originally posted by Borbarad
Nice how many theories are posted here. Let me just add my personal theory.

First we have to take a look at the unbreakable vow. What did Snape swear ?

a) Watch over Malfoy when he's trying to carry out Voldemorts plans.
b) Protect Malfoy against all kinds of dangers / threats.
c) Kill DD himself if Draco is about to fail.

Now we know that breaking the unbreakable vow will result in the death of the person that is under it's influence meaning if Snape acts against one of the points he will die.
Now let's just think about the points b and c. The only real danger or threat to Draco is Voldemort himself and the only protection against this threat is Dumbledore. Now killing Dumbledore might result in breaking the second unbreakable vow but as we have seen Snape was still alive after doing that.
And the third unbreakable vow ? Where was Draco about to fail ? He had Dumbledore disarmed and there were 4 Death-eaters in the room for backup then you have Snape coming in and immediatly cursing Dumbledore without even waiting for Draco doing something.

But let's go back to the actual scene and have a look at it.
We have Harry and Dumbledore arriving with the magic brooms. Then DD freezes Harry and get's disarmed before talking to Draco but think about it.

- in OotP Dumbledore alone took out Fudge, Percy Weasley, Kingsley, Umbridge and Dawlish at once and he mentioned that he would easily be able to escape from Askaban. Draco would have had no chance to disarm him if Dumbledore didn't want to get disarmed.
- the hint that he will be able to escape from Askaban as well as the scene when he saves Harry in PoA have shown that Dumbledore is able to use spells without having his wand at hand (wandless magic). It's hinted again in the scene when Dumbledore tells Draco that now everything is up to his mercy.

And now think about the possibilities Dumbledore had in the scene even when the Deatheaters arrived. He had the two magic brooms up there that he could have used to escape from the tower. He had Harry hidden under his magic cape and I'm pretty sure that Harry could have taken out all the people in the room from his hidden position if Dumbledore lowered his spell. And we know that Dumbledore is able to lower Hogwarts protections to give people the ability to use Apparition within the school building meaing he could have used Disapparition to get away from the tower.

But he didn't do anything like that but instead waited for Snape coming. And DD didn't beg for mercy and he didn't beg for getting killed by Snape. Why should he ? If Snape had shown mercy then he wouldn't be able to spy on Voldemort and the Deatheaters any longer and as we have seen all the Deatheaters wanted Dumbledore dead.
The only thing that he could have begged for was that Snape should have continued his spy works for the Order of the Phoenix.

My personal theory:
I think Snape told Dumbledore about everything Malfoy was doing and he told Dumbledore about the unbreakable vow. Dumbledore knew that Malfoy won't be able to kill him and he knew that Snape will come which he utilized to fake his own death.

Now point one: The Avada Kedavra
Bellatrix Lestrange's own words in OotP:
"Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy? You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really cause pain--to enjoy it-- righteous anger won't hurt me for long..."

That means that Snape must have wanted to kill Dumbledore and he must have enjoyed killing him. We know that Snape started spying on Voldemort before Voldemort's fall and his hand twitched before giving the third unbreakable vow. I don't think he would hesitated a second if he enjoyed the idea having to kill Dumbledore or if he really wanted to do it.
Therefore we can say that the Avada Kedavra Snape used against Dumbledore didn't kill Dumbledore.

Next observation: Dumbledore flying backwards being hit by the curse and it seems like he was "standing in the air" before he actually fell down from the tower.

I think Snape used some nonverbal spell to get Dumbledore out of sight either a banishing charm (Flitwick was thrown across the room when Neville accidentially used it on him in GoF) or the Levitation charm just to cover that he didn't really kill Dumbledore.

Next observation: Dumbledore bleeding when he's found at the side of the tower.

As it was already pointed out: Dead people don't bleed. That means Dumbledore was still alive when he was lying there although he was injured by the fall. And here we have a perfect recycling of the scene when Harry fell down from his broomstick during the Quidditch-match against Hufflepuff in PoA. Dumbledore used wandless spell casting to stop Harry from falling down and although he managed to slower down Harry's fall, Harry was still injured through it. I think the same thing was happening here...Dumbledore slowed down his own fall but still the impact did hurt him enough to bleed and maybe break some bones - then Fawkes moved in and cried to heal him.

Next observations all from the funeral scene:
- we never see Dumbledore's body
- Harry sees a Phoenix flying away

I think Dumbledore used the flames as a cover up and then Fawkes carried him away. We have seen in OotP that Fawkes can simply disappear from Dumbledore's office although Hogwarts has anti-Appartion magic installed and Fawkes wasn't present at the funeral which seemed very odd to me since all creatures did show their respect for Dumbledore but Fawkes was missing.

Conclusion: I think Dumbledore faked his death to make Voldemort reveal himself and provoke Voldemort to make mistakes. The entire search for the Horcrux was senseless and I bet that Dumbledore knew there was no real Horcrux in that cave (R.A.B who removed / destroyed the Horcrux seems to be Sirius brother Regulus Black) and just wanted to show Harry what awaits him when trying to find the other Horcruxs. I don't think that Jo Rowling would kill Dumbledore in such a useless way (having himself weakened through the search for a Horcrux which wasn't even at the place, having Draco disarm him and then Snape killing him).

question who was r.a.b.

Originally posted by Makae
They never said that you had to mean it for Avada Kedavra to work. They only said it for the torture curse. Plus, Snape made a magical vow, and there is no fooling magic.

he may have not fooled it but only delayed it..

Originally posted by Borbarad
Nice how many theories are posted here. Let me just add my personal theory.

First we have to take a look at the unbreakable vow. What did Snape swear ?

a) Watch over Malfoy when he's trying to carry out Voldemorts plans.
b) Protect Malfoy against all kinds of dangers / threats.
c) Kill DD himself if Draco is about to fail.

Now we know that breaking the unbreakable vow will result in the death of the person that is under it's influence meaning if Snape acts against one of the points he will die.
Now let's just think about the points b and c. The only real danger or threat to Draco is Voldemort himself and the only protection against this threat is Dumbledore. Now killing Dumbledore might result in breaking the second unbreakable vow but as we have seen Snape was still alive after doing that.
And the third unbreakable vow ? Where was Draco about to fail ? He had Dumbledore disarmed and there were 4 Death-eaters in the room for backup then you have Snape coming in and immediatly cursing Dumbledore without even waiting for Draco doing something.

But let's go back to the actual scene and have a look at it.
We have Harry and Dumbledore arriving with the magic brooms. Then DD freezes Harry and get's disarmed before talking to Draco but think about it.

- in OotP Dumbledore alone took out Fudge, Percy Weasley, Kingsley, Umbridge and Dawlish at once and he mentioned that he would easily be able to escape from Askaban. Draco would have had no chance to disarm him if Dumbledore didn't want to get disarmed.
- the hint that he will be able to escape from Askaban as well as the scene when he saves Harry in PoA have shown that Dumbledore is able to use spells without having his wand at hand (wandless magic). It's hinted again in the scene when Dumbledore tells Draco that now everything is up to his mercy.

And now think about the possibilities Dumbledore had in the scene even when the Deatheaters arrived. He had the two magic brooms up there that he could have used to escape from the tower. He had Harry hidden under his magic cape and I'm pretty sure that Harry could have taken out all the people in the room from his hidden position if Dumbledore lowered his spell. And we know that Dumbledore is able to lower Hogwarts protections to give people the ability to use Apparition within the school building meaing he could have used Disapparition to get away from the tower.

But he didn't do anything like that but instead waited for Snape coming. And DD didn't beg for mercy and he didn't beg for getting killed by Snape. Why should he ? If Snape had shown mercy then he wouldn't be able to spy on Voldemort and the Deatheaters any longer and as we have seen all the Deatheaters wanted Dumbledore dead.
The only thing that he could have begged for was that Snape should have continued his spy works for the Order of the Phoenix.

My personal theory:
I think Snape told Dumbledore about everything Malfoy was doing and he told Dumbledore about the unbreakable vow. Dumbledore knew that Malfoy won't be able to kill him and he knew that Snape will come which he utilized to fake his own death.

Now point one: The Avada Kedavra
Bellatrix Lestrange's own words in OotP:
"Never used an Unforgivable Curse before, have you, boy? You need to mean them, Potter! You need to really cause pain--to enjoy it-- righteous anger won't hurt me for long..."

That means that Snape must have wanted to kill Dumbledore and he must have enjoyed killing him. We know that Snape started spying on Voldemort before Voldemort's fall and his hand twitched before giving the third unbreakable vow. I don't think he would hesitated a second if he enjoyed the idea having to kill Dumbledore or if he really wanted to do it.
Therefore we can say that the Avada Kedavra Snape used against Dumbledore didn't kill Dumbledore.

Next observation: Dumbledore flying backwards being hit by the curse and it seems like he was "standing in the air" before he actually fell down from the tower.

I think Snape used some nonverbal spell to get Dumbledore out of sight either a banishing charm (Flitwick was thrown across the room when Neville accidentially used it on him in GoF) or the Levitation charm just to cover that he didn't really kill Dumbledore.

Next observation: Dumbledore bleeding when he's found at the side of the tower.

As it was already pointed out: Dead people don't bleed. That means Dumbledore was still alive when he was lying there although he was injured by the fall. And here we have a perfect recycling of the scene when Harry fell down from his broomstick during the Quidditch-match against Hufflepuff in PoA. Dumbledore used wandless spell casting to stop Harry from falling down and although he managed to slower down Harry's fall, Harry was still injured through it. I think the same thing was happening here...Dumbledore slowed down his own fall but still the impact did hurt him enough to bleed and maybe break some bones - then Fawkes moved in and cried to heal him.

Next observations all from the funeral scene:
- we never see Dumbledore's body
- Harry sees a Phoenix flying away

I think Dumbledore used the flames as a cover up and then Fawkes carried him away. We have seen in OotP that Fawkes can simply disappear from Dumbledore's office although Hogwarts has anti-Appartion magic installed and Fawkes wasn't present at the funeral which seemed very odd to me since all creatures did show their respect for Dumbledore but Fawkes was missing.

Conclusion: I think Dumbledore faked his death to make Voldemort reveal himself and provoke Voldemort to make mistakes. The entire search for the Horcrux was senseless and I bet that Dumbledore knew there was no real Horcrux in that cave (R.A.B who removed / destroyed the Horcrux seems to be Sirius brother Regulus Black) and just wanted to show Harry what awaits him when trying to find the other Horcruxs. I don't think that Jo Rowling would kill Dumbledore in such a useless way (having himself weakened through the search for a Horcrux which wasn't even at the place, having Draco disarm him and then Snape killing him).

only thing i diss agree with is that RAB, it said on the locket that RAB is the one who discoverd the truth... about the horicuxs... i jus dont know it doesent sound right... and also "if" DD is alive then why would he have let any one take the real locket that he and harry had worked so hard to retrieve.... thats the only things i question..

in other words we will just have to wait till the 7th book comes out to find out what the true story is....... and stop racking our brains to come up with somthing that may or may not be true....

THIS IS SO FRUSTRATING!!!! i just think its fishy the way that JK like showed us since the beginning Snapes "true self"....usually she just waits to the last moment or in a really tense moment to show us...for example...
in POA we all hated Sirius until i dont know when we found out that all was wrong and that in fact he was good...
Mad Eye Moody after all the things with the cemetery and that, we dont find out IMMEDIATELY he was barty crouch jr we found out a little later...

so see where im going? just that JK always comes up with something that is completely wrong(she misleads us) and just in the last moment she shows us the true colors of it. So maybe at the beginning with the unforgivable curses and all that maybe she was trying to mislead us making us thing that snape was a voldy spy...and if you ask me that i know that none of you did she sort of like wheeled us around with that one really hard...cause all of the sudden we see hes bad?!!? AAAA!!! TOO MUCH to take but o well lets see!

He is not dead. I refuse to believe it. NO NO NO NO NO schmoll

Not unless they are freshly dead, and Harry couldn't have taken more than an hour to arrive back at where Dumbledore's body lay.

i think the fact that fawkes did not save him is big evidence.
first-(ootp pg.815)


i think fawkes would have saved him again. and the fact that he didnt is very suspicious.

my next theory-
(hbp pg 645)


we are not really sure what dumbledore's animagus is but it could be a phoenix and the phoenix harry saw could be him flying away.

(ootp pg 622)


dumbledore could have also escaped throught the fire on his tomb.

Yeah, in the 6th book Harry was told by Hagrid that DD and Snape were arguing and that DD told him he had to do it, (kill DD? or fake it?) But why did Snape accuse DD of taking too much for granted?

hmm i dont know. but i think there was definitely some kind of plan going on between them.

I agree that the unbreakable vow was made to Narcissa to make the illusion that Snape was gonna help draco to the end. But Malfoy never followed through and Albus made the vow with Snape so he would kill him. But Dumbledor wasn't begging for his life he was begging for his death So that the plans could go through in the Order.

And truely i think that this former Death eater has a good heart. His history is dark and evil that would make anyone sour and bitter. He was trapped with the group of servers to the darkest wizard ever.

Snape couldn't possibly do it when it came down to it just like Draco. Trust me AD isn't gone JK Rowling has something in store for us all. I have yet to re-read the book but i strongly am against his death it was all strange. Esp his journey with Harry in the end.

Check out my post "Dumbledores Death is Staged"

Lots of evidence of JK's tricks

Originally posted by DarkC
Not unless they are freshly dead, and Harry couldn't have taken more than an hour to arrive back at where Dumbledore's body lay.

The question is where did the blood came from and how did it come to DD's face ?

We know that he wasn't bleeding before getting hit by the Avada Kedavra. We know that the Avada Kedavra instantly kills people without doing visible damage to them.

Thus being said the blood can only come from wounds that DD suffered from the fall from the tower (maybe inner wounds). But how did it get to DD's face ? He was lying on his back and if the Avada Kedavra killed him there is no possibility that he was breathing any longer and therefore there is no way that blood from his mouth or nose had come to his face (blood can't defy gravity and DD was lying on his back). And since he couldn't have moved there is no possibility that blood from other parts of his body got on his face.
And that means that DD was still alive after having hit the ground.

@seanjones:


JKR has basically admitted that "RAB" was Sirius brother Regulus Black. If that's the truth then the Horcrux must have been stolen before Voldemort's fall (about 16 years before HBP). If that's the truth I guess Regulus would have told DD, Sirius or somebody else about it. How else would DD know anything about the Horcruxs ?

And thinking about that point: Why did DD weaken himself ? In the cave he used his own blood instead of letting Harry spend some which I don't understand because he can instantly heal wounds. Then he is drinking the magic potion although he exactly knew what it will do before they even entered the cave (He told Harry before).

I think DD has been to that cave before and just wanted to teach Harry about the things Voldemort will use to protect the Horcruxes so that Harry would be able to deal with that tests alone and that's why he explained everything they found to Harry.

About "Snape and Dumbledore arguing":
I still think that Dumbledore wanted Snape to go and spy on Voldemort himself. As far as we knew Snape only spied on the Deatheaters and not on the Dark Lord himself. And that's what Dumbledore begged for when Snape arrived at the Tower. As I said...it doesn't make sense if he begged for getting killed or not getting killed.

And now...even if all that things can be explained there is still no explanation for the following questions:
- Why wasn't Fawkes present at DD's funeral ?
- Where did the flames surrounding DD's body came from ?
- Where did the tomb come from ?
- Why did Harry see a Phoenix flying away ?

Beside of that I think there is a reason why DD is always associated with the Phoenix (his pet is a phoenix, his patronus has the shape of a phoenix, he called the organisation of Wizards against Voldemort the Order of the Phoenix). If he really was killed (which I still doubt) I think he will return.

Borbarad has made some excellent points and made them very well. I am in total agreement with him/her.

Dumbledore is not dead. JKR would not have even left the slightest possibility that he was alive, let alone so many.

A lot of people have made reference to the point of JKR saying that 'once a character is dead, it's dead' and 'i'm killing someone off in HBP' but come on, think about it. She's hardly going to say 'Oh, you never know, he could be alive' because that would totally blow secrecy and it would be obvious he was alive. I mean, if you were worth more than the queen and you had a load of losers like us racking our brains and spending time thinking about this you are hardly going to blow your cover. No one would discuss the book, it would be less popular!

This is just added to Borbarad's theory. Read the one on page 6 that he/she wrote, it is very good.

Guys, I don't know what to believe. Of course, I want Dumbledore to be alive. It was a poor way he died (if he really did). But still, I don't know, after reading the Order of the Phoenix, I honestly believed Sirius would come back. (He didn't, though he has one more chance (or book) to show up.)
And again, JKR put me in denial. I don't believe Snape's evil. I don't think he is. I guess he would come back in the 7th book and explain everything and maybe sacrifice himself in some kind of fight and this way, he finally manages to prove that he's on the right side.
It's really simple: Harry and Ron can't be right about Snape if Dumbledore, Lupin and Hermione think he's a good guy.
I think there are two choices: either Snape's evil, or they faked Dumbledore's death. Otherwise, how could Snape explain why he killed Dumbledore and who would believe him? Let me know if I'm wrong or right.

Hold on a sec, i have read arguements on both sides, apparently there seems to be decent evidence and respectable arguements for both, but....the arguement of dumbledore being alive appears to be stronger. If I may?

Dumbledore is dead:

1)He was old anyway, and JK figured it was time for Harry, Ron, Hermoine, and Neville to grow up journey together.
2)Dumbledore knew some of Voldemort's weaknesses just as Voldemort knew some of Dumbledore's weaknesses. Trust.
3)Dumbledore said himself that Voldemort put an enchantment on Defense Against the Dark Arts (D.A.D.D.) which is why a teacher of that subject in Hogwarts never lasted more than a year. It just so happens that Snape became a teacher of the subject meaning it is possible that he chose the evil side instead.

Dumbledore is alive:

1)Dumbledore said over and over again that he trusted Snape and never mention why.
2)Dumbledore purposley kept harry frozen even when it appeared that he, Dumbledore, was pleading to Snape not to kill him because "all of a sudden" it seemed like Dumbledore was afraid of Snape. And after all that talk of trust? dont think so.
3)And yeah, we've all heard about the avada kedavra curse incident. The curse does not send you flying in the air and then stop and fall. It kills you instantly, maybe knocking you slighly off your feet. Snape must've done something that no one else noticed.

Originally posted by Auror_Elite
Hold on a sec, i have read arguements on both sides, apparently there seems to be decent evidence and respectable arguements for both, but....the arguement of dumbledore being alive appears to be stronger. If I may?

Dumbledore is dead:

1)He was old anyway, and JK figured it was time for Harry, Ron, Hermoine, and Neville to grow up journey together.
2)Dumbledore knew some of Voldemort's weaknesses just as Voldemort knew some of Dumbledore's weaknesses. Trust.
3)Dumbledore said himself that Voldemort put an enchantment on Defense Against the Dark Arts (D.A.D.D.) which is why a teacher of that subject in Hogwarts never lasted more than a year. It just so happens that Snape became a teacher of the subject meaning it is possible that he chose the evil side instead.

Dumbledore is alive:

1)Dumbledore said over and over again that he trusted Snape and never mention why.
2)Dumbledore purposley kept harry frozen even when it appeared that he, Dumbledore, was pleading to Snape not to kill him because "all of a sudden" it seemed like Dumbledore was afraid of Snape. And after all that talk of trust? dont think so.
3)And yeah, we've all heard about the avada kedavra curse incident. The curse does not send you flying in the air and then stop and fall. It kills you instantly, maybe knocking you slighly off your feet. Snape must've done something that no one else noticed.

Agreed. Although one other argument for Dumbledore is Dead part is that it did say he copped it. But meh. He's gotta be alive.

Ok Voldemort-best wizard of all times-EVIL
Dumbledor-best wizard of all times-GOOD

Both are extremely great wizards,even though one in each side. If Voldemort didnt ever try to do something while Dumbledore lived (he didnt even tried to kill him) why did Snape,one of his teachers, one of his member of the order of the phoenix, one which he gave so much trust...killed him just like puf, its done, over...dont get it

And why in the last book DD is so wrong so many times?!!?!??! he was so wise in all the other books he never was wrong and in the last book...suddenly gets so old and weary, finally gives Snape DADA and gets killed and many more...i just sensed DD in this book so weird!!

it's still frustrating to me...but might as well wait until the final book comes out(hope its 8942893 pages long cause shes got a lot of explaining to do)

im not sure i almost fell over hearing that dd died i meean seriously

I think danagrint is right because if you watch the Goblet Of Fire Mad-Eye moody did avada kevadra in the dark arts class the spider didn't fly backwards.

dont base your theories on what happened in the movies.

as it is stated in the books, whenever the killing curse is performed the person just drops down dead.

Yeah the movies are defenatly wrong, In Goblet of Fire, Cedric gets blown backward, which obviouslly makes the MOVIE WAY WRONG!!!

thank you lord obvious.... now that we are all up to date on that... the reason i think that the curs sent cidric backwards is jus the vilocity of the curs it hits them and the get propelled back wards... just like if you were hit with a car... the part of you what was hit wold fly backwards am i not right...??? i think that DD is dead... but i also think that snape is good.. snape was forced to kill DD he made the unbreakable vow... and if he dident go through with the vow he would be killed and then the good guys would loss a varry important spi.. and snape was giving harry some varry important hints... im not going to go through with the details... its quite long.

Originally posted by seanjones
thank you lord obvious.... now that we are all up to date on that... the reason i think that the curs sent cidric backwards is jus the vilocity of the curs it hits them and the get propelled back wards... just like if you were hit with a car... the part of you what was hit wold fly backwards am i not right...??? i think that DD is dead... but i also think that snape is good.. snape was forced to kill DD he made the unbreakable vow... and if he dident go through with the vow he would be killed and then the good guys would loss a varry important spi.. and snape was giving harry some varry important hints... im not going to go through with the details... its quite long.

avada kedavra never sends the victim flying in the air as it is stated in the books, the person just falls down dead. i dont think there is a velocity of the curse. it just instantly kills you.

well i think dumbledore will be in the last book a little bit becuase remeber all of the portraits os the headmasters are posted in the office so dumbledore will be in there and you can talk to the portraits. so i think that MAYBE harry will talk to a picture of dumbledore for advice because who else would he get that advice from? i do think dumbledores dead and hes going to stay dead. remember the quote from the 4th book? dumbledore states this " there is no spell to re-awaken the dead harry" so hes dead for sure but i do think they will talk to dumbledore through one of his portraits. just like they did with sirious's grandfather. he's dead but his portrait helped in the Order of the phoniex.

Originally posted by undomiel
avada kedavra never sends the victim flying in the air as it is stated in the books, the person just falls down dead. i dont think there is a velocity of the curse. it just instaintly kills you.

it didnot send him flying in the air.. it hit him... he got thrown backwards.. it acted like if you were standing still and a simytruck went flying past you at like 90mph you couldent just stand perfectly still you would be forced in a direction away from the truck... beacuse of the wind vilocity... the curse killed him and the wind behind the curse pushed him away.... and also there are reflexes when you see your bout to get hit with somthing you jump out of the way... well he could have jumped backwards... it doesent nessesaraly have to be the curse its self that pushed him backwards.

(hbp pg. 596)

throughout this whole scene dumbledore is very weak and is slumped against the wall. he would not have the strength to move out of the way or jump backwards.
and spells do not have a speed or velocity. it does not force you into the air. it simply kills you.

Originally posted by undomiel
(hbp pg. 596)

throughout this whole scene dumbledore is very weak and is slumped against the wall. he would not have the strength to move out of the way or jump backwards.
and spells do not have a speed or velocity. it does not force you into the air. it simply kills you.

i was talking about feaking Cedric. and anything moving through the air has vilocity

but im not going to argue its a matter of opinyon....

i think that harrys mum" slughorne told harry that his mum was good at potion making" made a potion that awakens the dead because dumbldore said that no spell can reawaken the dead.. not potion... i think thats why voldermort wanted to spare her so he would no how then he would have killed her... harry will go to godrics hollo and find the instructions that she left him to find he will awaken dumbledore, his dad and mum... he cant reawaken sirius cause he has no body to find...

What if?

Slughorn takes harry to the cave to teach him a lesson about how dangerous horcruxes are - responding to his interest.
He had polyjuice in one of the cauldrons at the beginning of his first potions lesson. Dumbledore at the cave says 'oho!' (a favourite Dumbledore saying.) He also seems to be bragging about his abilities - very slughorn like.
Mundungus was selling Sirius' possessions at Hogmede.
Dumbledore may have already got the horcrux from the cave earlier.
If Slughorn reset the whole cave thing up he could have used one of the items bought from Mundungus as an example - Hence the initials RAB.

Where is Slughorn at Dumbledore's funeral?

Dumbledore is alive!

Originally posted by HagridsRazor
What if?

Slughorn takes harry to the cave to teach him a lesson about how dangerous horcruxes are - responding to his interest.
He had polyjuice in one of the cauldrons at the beginning of his first potions lesson. Dumbledore at the cave says 'oho!' (a favourite Dumbledore saying.) He also seems to be bragging about his abilities - very slughorn like.
Mundungus was selling Sirius' possessions at Hogmede.
Dumbledore may have already got the horcrux from the cave earlier.
If Slughorn reset the whole cave thing up he could have used one of the items bought from Mundungus as an example - Hence the initials RAB.

Where is Slughorn at Dumbledore's funeral?

Dumbledore is alive!
ok waaay too complicated