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Cyclops
Wolverine
Beast
Emma Frost
Colossus
Shadowcat

vs



Thing
Human Torch
Mr Fantastic
Ivisible Woman

colossus must fight the thing. Emma Frost must fight IW. however any of the other x-men or FF can help them out or whatever......

No Prep, who wins?

?

X-men. They've got the superior firepower here. Especially with the certain characters being on here.

Colossus can take Thing. And with Beast's help, they can toss Thing aside somewhere a mile away.

Cyclops could DEFINITELY keep Human Torch at bay. Hell, he might even take him alone. But if he can't, Colossus can "Fastball Special" Wolverine right at Human Torch when he isn't looking. There goes HT.

Mr. Fantastic could be taken out by Shadowcat alone.

Invisible Woman will have her hands already full with Emma, who I'm sure will be making IW's mind a living hell. If IW is still fighting then, Shadowcat can easily bypass IW's shield and thrash her.

So, like previously stated. The X-men win this fight. Good choice of X-men for the team there.

cheers.


Anyone else got any opinions?

I agree with emtal x-men win.
wolverien or colossus cna fight thing.
cyclopes can handle human torch
emma can handly invisable woman.
that leaves beast,kitty and wolverine or colossus to help double team the members of the FF

I agrre but are you guys sure cyke can handle torch, who can go all supernova?

he cyclopes loses but he could hold him off

Originally posted by willRules
Cyclops
Wolverine
Beast
Emma Frost
Colossus
Shadowcat

vs



Thing
Human Torch
Mr Fantastic
Invisible Woman

colossus must fight the thing. Emma Frost must fight IW. however any of the other x-men or FF can help them out or whatever......

No Prep, who wins?
HT will fry Wolverine, Beast and Emma, then watch the slugfest of Colossus and Thing, which Colossus will win, thank to superior strenght and agility, cause in the durability sector, it's a stalemate.
No way Logan or Hank are killing Torch.
Damn he was able to fly through two security robots of Doom's embassy in NY, and they were made obviously of some special metallic alloy.
Hank and Logan are made of flesh and bones, he'll leave ashes and an adamantium skeleton on the ground, same for Emma.
His aerial speed and fighting skills will outmatch Cyclops.
Torch has enhanced durability, he can take more than Scott, while 1blast from him will kill him.

wolverine was able to tackle human torch and hold on to him well his flame was on in wolverine enemy of the state. also they hit a gasoline tnak and blow up torch was nocked out wolverine was not. so know I dont see torch taking wolverine out of the fight at all. also wolverine Vs MU wolverine easly dogde human torches attacks and nocked him out

Originally posted by wolverine8888
wolverine was able to tackle human torch and hold on to him well his flame was on in wolverine enemy of the state. also they hit a gasoline tnak and blow up torch was nocked out wolverine was not. so know I dont see torch taking wolverine out of the fight at all. also wolverine Vs MU wolverine easly dogde human torches attacks and nocked him out

If torch goes supernova then logan is screwed, unless shadowcat helps out there..........anway logan may not (and in fact due to his lack of range attacks) fight the Torch who is literally outof reach. Logan is also screwed if he fights IW. She could kill him but she doesnt need to when she can knock him out for the fight........

FF wins. Invisible Woman traps all the X-Men in a forcefield with Johnny who goes Supernova, killing them all except Colossus, since he could probly take the heat, and Wolverine, who'd heal from it. Then Invisible Woman puts a bubble around Wolverine's head, cutting off his air supply while Ben pounds on him, knocking him out quickly whie Reed and Johnny hold off Colossus. Then it's the FF vs Colossus, Colossus is screwed.

That would be such a cool comic fight...........

Originally posted by armandovalles
FF wins. Invisible Woman traps all the X-Men in a forcefield with Johnny who goes Supernova, killing them all except Colossus, since he could probly take the heat, and Wolverine, who'd heal from it. Then Invisible Woman puts a bubble around Wolverine's head, cutting off his air supply while Ben pounds on him, knocking him out quickly whie Reed and Johnny hold off Colossus. Then it's the FF vs Colossus, Colossus is screwed.
.................................You are saying Logan can survive supernova heat?He'll be dead like the others.

I agree

no no he wouldent. he was right next to havok when havok let all his power out at once and wolverine was not even paying attention and he was fine but he did get nocked out but that was because he got hit in the back full force from it when he was not watching because some one was controling havok bod and havok just all of a sudden let it all out.(the blast destroyed the biulding they were in fully). wolverine survived also a direct hit from a nuke befor. he survived a whole castle full of gas with him in the middle of it blowing up. there are many other examples byt u get the piont wolverine will survive it

what're they gonna do about shadowcat?

Emma could take Invisible Woman, Beast and Colossus could EASILY take Thing, and i believe Cyclops could take out Human Torch. Cyclops' uniform is likely heat resistant, but Torch isn't resistant to being crushed like a tin can by Cyclops' phenomonally accurate blasts.

Shadowcat could take out Mr. Fantastic by solidifying something in his brain, not too much sweat.

offensively, the only real things that the F4 can do wouldn't affect shadowcat in her intangible state.

Thing beats Colossus just like the countless other Sub-Hulk power houses he has beaten. Colossus is nothing compared to Thing in a fist fight, its been proven on many occasions, and there isn't even evidence that he's more durable. Everything the pro-colossus people have said is pure opinion. They cant name any instances where thing proved less durable or lost to a similar character. However Thing's list of fights is a mile long.

Torch would take out several X-Men including Cyclops, just the same as he took on Graviton: make flame copies of himself who cant die because they aren't really people. Then roast as many X-Men as he wants. By the way, Colossus melts at 9000 degrees....that is a paltry temperature for torch to produce.

IW has already beaten Emma Frost, and she is way more powerful and accomplished anyway. After she dispatches emma, she skewers beast and any other X-Men that r still breathing.

Reed is way more dangerous than people are giving him credit for. In a blood lust situation he could simply make spikes and blades with his body which he could hit adversaries from any direction. And as the Dark Raider he kept deadly weaponry on him on a regular basis that easily took care of any Earth-level opponents.

Shadowcat is theonly person who may survive cuz she would have the chance to run away...assuming Reed doesnt attack her with some kind of variable frequency weapon.

The problem is Shadowcat. Unless Reed has time to make a device to counter her power, she could kill the entire FF virtually single-handed.

She's cheap like that.

No she couldnt. They could still just as easily avoid her ass after they kill the other X-Men. U wanna talk about cheap? Why doesnt Torch just go Novo on them or Sue blow up their brains. Sue could still make Shadowcats optic nerve invisible and then she would just be fumbling around and would probably just walk into the core of the Earth.

sue can only attack one x-men at a time with out being able to defend her self as soon as she atatck one she be taken out. also blowing up wolverien brian not gunna help. nor is going nova he will heal I dought if he even get nocked out by the nova. plus once jonny goes nova the fights over for him he has barly any power to stand.

is that some kind of Rule or something? She has attacked whole teams in the past, hordes of Skrulls, Doombots, etc. Why not these X-Men? She can punch a hole through Galactus's chest, make the whole planet Earth invisible, shatter the armor of Exitar and destroy his brain; you are underestimating IW.

Wolverine not knocked out by Nova flame? U have serious issues. Wolverine's skin is no more durable than yours or mine. Every once of flesh on his body would be vaporized instantly. Torch has burned a hole straight to the core of the planet and caused the Earth to expand, Burned a hole through the planet Mars, Wolverine is out of his league...every cell, every organic molecule in his body will vaporize and he will die!!!....just be a skelaton like in Hulk's Future Imperfect, granted that he doesnt melt that too.

u do understand wolverien skin is more durable then a normal humans he just not bullet proof. his boneswith out metal are far more denser then a normal humans also. by the way this is comic u most under stand does not fallow same logic as real life.
wolverien was quite fine after havok who was less then a foot away from him unleash a full exstent of his power at once. which totaly destroyed the biulding they were in.
who castle full of gas blow up with wolverine in the middle he easlily survive.
nuke fell right on him he easlily survived. andriod incencrated wolverin body all that was left was skeleton he survived that as well.
from comic evidence wolverine would clearly survive.

um...thats pretty marginal. Titanium Steel Alloy would vaporize at 1,000,000 degrees....Torch's hottest flame is an unknown temp higher. Havok is not the Torch. Wolverine was fine in that instance, so was the material around them. Torch's best Nova blast could destroy a moon. Against Exitar he unleashed enough nova flame to vaporize a hemisphere! Wolverine is outclassed. Wolverine never came back from a skeleton under his own power in a continuity issue. And in this case he would have no cells, no protien to synthesize...HE WOULD CLEARLY BE DEAD.

venom on the run he did it and mighty fast actauly. oh by the way when havok did do that blast the whole biulding was gone there was nuthing left of hit. oh hovak normal blasts are hotter then the outer layer of the sun. full power blast no telling how hot it was. so yes wolverine would survive a nova.

Its obviously not that hot. If it were Torch going Nova much more than a castle would be getting scorched. Agasint Exitar the narrator explicitely said Torch could have destroyed a hemisphere...Wolverine's outclassed. Venom on the run wasnt continuity and u know it. And Black Panther kicks wolverine's short @ss.

first off the castle one was full of gas and blow up that had nuthing to do with havok. I havok destroyed a good part of the citty with wolverine with wolverien standing next to him when he let out all his power. balck panther is out classed by wolverine it a joke to think other wise

No not really...Black Panther is first class...wolverine is street level crimefighter. U know u might have had an argument but u've revealed your clear bias. U think Havok can produce the same destruction as the torch. Somehow a castle = a hemisphere to u. And wolverine outclasses Black Panther? hmm...last time I checked, T'Challa was one of the most brilliant humans on Earth...Wolverine's an old canadian farmer.

If they fight relying on their powers alone the X-Men win.

wynnder first off no. I said havok destroyed haft a city. second wolverine is A class he. black panthe ru could put on street level but wolverien no way wolverine in every way but intel is superior to panther.
wynnder u trying to say a dude who has gone toe to toe with hulk on some many occassions is street level? when has black panther ever given any one near hulks strength level a fight

Originally posted by wolverine8888
wynnder first off no. I said havok destroyed haft a city. second wolverine is A class he. black panthe ru could put on street level but wolverien no way wolverine in every way but intel is superior to panther.
wynnder u trying to say a dude who has gone toe to toe with hulk on some many occassions is street level? when has black panther ever given any one near hulks strength level a fight

Black Panther has beaten Magneto, Namor, Ironman, Dr. Doom,the Fantastic Four...oh wait...Wolverine too...has his own defense against Galactus...Jeez....Wolverine has a plaid shirt and a pair of Wranglers...

Originally posted by snoopdogg
If they fight relying on their powers alone the X-Men win.

Please Elaborate, Each member of the F4 has higher showings than each member of this XM team, they also have more impressive individual and team victories. Oh and each one has more powerful abilities.

Are we still trying to assert that Invisible Woman or Human Torch can act faster than telepathy?

And why in the hell would Reed have a weapon that would somehow hurt Shadowcat in a non-prep fight?

Shadowcat makes Emma Frost intangible. Emma Frost uses Human Torch, Thing and Reed Richards to kill Invisible Woman and then shuts off the remaining FF's minds.

Wolverine8888 I agree with you that Logan could survive a Nova blast but that is if shadowcat makes him go intangible otherwise hes screwed. You also said that IW could only attack one person at a time this is untrue she could attack every x-man at once, except for possibly Shadowcat, it depends........


As for those who said Cyclops could take Torch out, yes he could but that is assuming those two are fighting each other, cyclops might be fighting Reed or ben or sue. I just said Sue and emma have to fight and colossus and Thing. Any members of the FF or X-men can help their teamates out...........

Originally posted by armandovalles
FF wins. Invisible Woman traps all the X-Men in a forcefield with Johnny who goes Supernova, killing them all except Colossus, since he could probly take the heat, and Wolverine, who'd heal from it. Then Invisible Woman puts a bubble around Wolverine's head, cutting off his air supply while Ben pounds on him, knocking him out quickly whie Reed and Johnny hold off Colossus. Then it's the FF vs Colossus, Colossus is screwed.

Is everyone underestimating torchs nova flame? The old official handbook from the 80's said torch can go up to 1,000,000 degrees. Over the years just like the other ff he has gotten stronger or more skilled he can mostlikely go hotter than that in order to penetrate the core of earth. Colossus melts some where around 12,000 according to c17 or metalman which ever has that book. Wolverine would NOT heal from that. Havok averages around 50,000 degrees this is 1,000,000+.

Originally posted by wolverine8888
no no he wouldent. he was right next to havok when havok let all his power out at once and wolverine was not even paying attention and he was fine but he did get nocked out but that was because he got hit in the back full force from it when he was not watching because some one was controling havok bod and havok just all of a sudden let it all out.(the blast destroyed the biulding they were in fully). wolverine survived also a direct hit from a nuke befor. he survived a whole castle full of gas with him in the middle of it blowing up. there are many other examples byt u get the piont wolverine will survive it

Wolverine would NOT heal from that. Havok averages around 50,000 degrees this is 1,000,000+.

No one on either team would survive a nova flame with the exception of IW.

wynndar no black panther has never beaten wolverine. if u call that little throw a win u are quite stupid. that like saying captain america hit thor in the head with his shield so captain one the fight.
First contest of champions BP fought wolverine and wolverine would of killed him if not thing came.
also since u obviosly wrong about black panther ever beating wolverine then I gunna assume him beating namor.magneto are both bull shit too.
any ways if u dident know wolverine beat namor in 30 seconds last time they fought.

wolverine8888, Havok's blast can level a city at full force, if not more.
Wolverine going through one of his blasts, was mere crap writing.
Since when Wolverine has invulnerability?
Since when a blast that can level a small mountain cannot phase Logan?
xmark Emma has human reaction time and reflexes.
Fight begin, she try to telepathy control one of the FF4, meanwhile, Torch can easy fry her, or Reed can punch her and knock her uncoscious.
A small injury like a stone in the head, make Emma unable to perform even crowd control during an attack against mutants made from civilians.She'll go down fast and easy.

no he got hurt but he lived was up a couple pannels later

Originally posted by life is cruell
Is everyone underestimating torchs nova flame? The old official handbook from the 80's said torch can go up to 1,000,000 degrees. Over the years just like the other ff he has gotten stronger or more skilled he can mostlikely go hotter than that in order to penetrate the core of earth. Colossus melts some where around 12,000 according to c17 or metalman which ever has that book. Wolverine would NOT heal from that. Havok averages around 50,000 degrees this is 1,000,000 .One million degrees Fahrenheit is the limit if I recall which is roughly 500,000 Kelvin. Shadowcat phased survived the heat of a nuclear explosion at the very epicentre where temperatures reach tens of millions Kelvin.Originally posted by K3VIL
xmark Emma has human reaction time and reflexes.The FF don't have human reaction times and reflexes? Sue is faster than telepathy?
Emma can take control of multiple people, or she can just simply mindblast them.
Originally posted by K3VIL
Fight begin, she try to telepathy control one of the FF4, meanwhile, Torch can easy fry her, or Reed can punch her and knock her uncoscious.
A small injury like a stone in the head, make Emma unable to perform even crowd control during an attack against mutants made from civilians.She'll go down fast and easy. Phased by Shadowcat...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
One million degrees Fahrenheit is the limit if I recall which is roughly 500,000 Kelvin. Shadowcat phased survived the heat of a nuclear explosion at the very epicentre where temperatures reach tens of millions Kelvin.

I'm well aware and as much as I like the FF logically I have to go with the x-men. I wouldnt even consider torch going nova in this fight because i like to stay within character just fighting to the best of their ability in this case he really wouldnt need to go nova.

oh if what xmark said is true then wolverine would deffently survive seeign how he took a direct hit form a nuke and lived.

Originally posted by willRules
If torch goes supernova then logan is screwed, unless shadowcat helps out there..........anway logan may not (and in fact due to his lack of range attacks) fight the Torch who is literally outof reach. Logan is also screwed if he fights IW. She could kill him but she doesnt need to when she can knock him out for the fight........

torch can't go super nova. he would kill his whole team.

F4 fanboys!

xmarksthespot has put forth the most likely solution. shadowcat turns emma intangible (which she likely wouldn't even need to do, considering that holding the opinion sue>faster>emma is a defiance of all logic). colossus could at the very least stalemate thing, and with beast it's no contest: thing is going down.

that leaves torch and reed against emma, beast, shadowcat, cyclops, colossus...you get the idea.

aside from the fact that shadowcat cannot be harmed by any of the F4.

its a numbers game .... Xmen wins

Originally posted by hoorayforpeepee
F4 fanboys!

xmarksthespot has put forth the most likely solution. shadowcat turns emma intangible (which she likely wouldn't even need to do, considering that holding the opinion sue>faster>emma is a defiance of all logic). colossus could at the very least stalemate thing, and with beast it's no contest: thing is going down.

that leaves torch and reed against emma, beast, shadowcat, cyclops, colossus...you get the idea.

aside from the fact that shadowcat cannot be harmed by any of the F4.

That's a good strategy. Except that ur ignoring the fact that IW can not only block telepathy (demonstrated by her fight with Psi-Lord) but Reed has provided the F4 with telepathy blocking technology in their costumes i.e. their "fight" with X-Man. But that is good thinking.

Torch's Supernova is said to produce an omnidirectional blast of heat surpassing 1,000,000 degrees. A focused Nova blast reaches unknown extremes however. More recently, its been stated that Torch can match a small star, destroy a moon, and vaporize a hemisphere. This kind of power would make short work of any of these X-Men, including Wolverine. Shadowcat would survive but by herself she's not much of a threat, considering any memeber of the F4 can avoid her and IW could also arguably repel her.

Telepathy-blocking technology all the time? Sounds a lot like prep/plot device to me. Oh and in the "fight" that you like to refer to in order to make some kind of spurious assumption that Sue's powers somehow act faster than telepathy, telepathy seems to affect her and the other FF just fine - within her forcefield.
Torch's nova-level flame has been stated to reach 1,000,000 degrees Fahrenheit (I specifically say Fahrenheit because temperatures in Fahrenheit hyperbolize SI unit temperature) and using it has been stated to exhaust him.
Shadowcat can phase more than just herself. And there is more evidence of her being able to pass through Sue's forcefield than to the contrary.

Well thats the scope of understanding u have of IW. Her fields r not generic. Each one is specific to the task at hand and she can produce a field for blocking telepathy... She makes fields that are soft or porous for catching people, fields that are sound proof so she wont be detected, fields that allow sound so she can communicate through them, fields that do or do not allow in heat, fields that dont even allow LIGHT itself through. And yes, even fields for blocking telepathy; i dont think there is a better example than her fighting Psi-Lord. She can also produce a resonance and attack phasing individuals.

Why is anti-telepathy a plot device? If all it took to beat the F4 was a mediocre telepath dont u think Dr Doom would have simply used a morlock to fight the F4 rather than elaborate schemes which involved freeing Tryos, nursing him back to health, and then empowering him with the powercosmic; or stealing and amplifying the power of a Watcher and taking the F4 head on?

Practically everyone in the MU has access to anti telepath tech these days and yet the most technologically advanced super team on Earth should only have it as a plot device?

Having anti-telepathy devices in a no prep fight... isn't prep?

Oh and about the forcefields - yes I know they're varied in nature - but 1) you're still assuming Sue acts faster than telepathy, 2) if she puts each of the FF in forcefields how exactly do you propose they attack?

She can cover their skin in a forcefield....she routinely has one around her skin at all time in case Dr.Doom, Skrulls, Mad Thinker, etc. try a sneak attack. She covered Reed's skin in a forcefield when he fought Grey Gargoyle and was so tactful about it neither Reed or GG knew he had it until Gragoyle grabbed Reed's face.

"She routinely has one around her skin at all times"? Sue Richards is secretly Superman?

Human Torch's heat is self-generated. A skin-tight forcefield that allows heat through but not telepathy. As well as allowing the propulsive forces in order to fly out and the oxygen to sustain HT's life and any flames in and the forcefield allows CO2 out.
Thing attacks via physical force. A skin-tight forcefield that allows force out but not in and that allows air in and out and blocks telepathy.
Reed stretches and Invisible Woman expands the forcefield to exactly the right shape, and this forcefield also blocks telepathy while allowing oxygen in and out, force out, and preventing force from coming in.
Meanwhile she also has to put up a skin-tight forcefield that allows oxygen in, CO2 out, and prevents telepathy and force from entering.

She does all this simultaneously before Emma Frost can use telepathy... methinks your somewhat stretching.

What do you mean by "allows force out"? If Thing punches someone with a forcefield around his fist it's not going to sprout flowers.

You're impacting on a forcefield that prevents the passage of force whether on the inside or the outside. Maybe a diagram will help.

It's like a body suit though. It doesn't even need to be physically strong, it just needs to block telepathy. In fact, it only really needs to be like an orb around their head.

Originally posted by cheldon
torch can't go super nova. he would kill his whole team.

not if sue puts up a bubble around herslef and her team.........

in this fight there are only 2 things to worry about

1) If human torch has to he will go supernova and that will take out all the x men
2) I dont know if any of the ff will be able to take out shadow cat and all she has to do is just start phasing threw people and she could take out the whole team.

So I think im going to have to go with the x men on this one just because of shadow cat

Reed might be smart enough to attack and maybe knock out kitty before she goes intagible, but seeing as its her natural state its a long shot.........

Originally posted by Wynndar
Well thats the scope of understanding u have of IW. Her fields r not generic. Each one is specific to the task at hand and she can produce a field for blocking telepathy... She makes fields that are soft or porous for catching people, fields that are sound proof so she wont be detected, fields that allow sound so she can communicate through them, fields that do or do not allow in heat, fields that dont even allow LIGHT itself through. And yes, even fields for blocking telepathy; i dont think there is a better example than her fighting Psi-Lord. She can also produce a resonance and attack phasing individuals.

Why is anti-telepathy a plot device? If all it took to beat the F4 was a mediocre telepath dont u think Dr Doom would have simply used a morlock to fight the F4 rather than elaborate schemes which involved freeing Tryos, nursing him back to health, and then empowering him with the powercosmic; or stealing and amplifying the power of a Watcher and taking the F4 head on?

Practically everyone in the MU has access to anti telepath tech these days and yet the most technologically advanced super team on Earth should only have it as a plot device?

Wow. Those light-blocking forcefields must be pretty dark inside.

Just thought I'd mention that. I'm also under the assumption that Shadowcat can indeed phase through IW's forcefield. Since, you know, she breaks down into atoms and such to phase through things.

I agree with earlier statement, I think Shadowcat could indeed take out the entire Fantastic Four herself.

Yes...to phase through matter. Sue's field is not made of matter.

And concerning Sue's control of her forcefield, yes she can encapsulate even Reed when he is fighting. She was doing it in the fight I mentioned with the Grey Gargoyle.

She isn't just putting up a forcefield around Reed. She's doing this.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Human Torch's heat is self-generated. A skin-tight forcefield that allows heat through but not telepathy. As well as allowing the propulsive forces in order to fly out and the oxygen to sustain HT's life and any flames in and the forcefield allows CO2 out.
Thing attacks via physical force. A skin-tight forcefield that allows force out but not in and that allows air in and out and blocks telepathy.
Reed stretches and Invisible Woman expands the forcefield to exactly the right shape, and this forcefield also blocks telepathy while allowing oxygen in and out, force out, and preventing force from coming in.
Meanwhile she also has to put up a skin-tight forcefield that allows oxygen in, CO2 out, and prevents telepathy and force from entering around herself.All before Emma Frost can use telepathy. Because she's Flash-in-drag. As well as having a Superman biofield.

Shadowcat can phase through matter, energy and force. So what exactly do you propose Invisible Woman's fields are made of?

your seriously doubting her forcefield, if most cosmic powers/evil geniouses can't solve the field, i don't think she will. Yes they do have anti-telepathic tech, can't remember the issue, and storm only ever goes nova as last resort. I think either team can win with proper writing. Thing and colossus would be a fun fight to watch even though some people think stalemates are boring. I think unless torch gets hit right off, he owns cyclops. He has the agility of spiderman in the air when he is on his game. I think the dynamic of the team is sue/reed because i think as a strategist IW would put a shield around them to give him time to formulate a plan while the others are trying to get in, i like it when she puts up a hundred shields as layers.

In the scenario you just created Human Torch and Thing would be taken control of by Emma Frost. In a non-prep fight why would they have anti-telepathic devices. Answer: they wouldn't.

A resonance from hyperspace.

Im not implying she has to do all that, She could either protect the team until Emma is delt with. And thats only assuming the F4 dont have telepathy blocking tech...which they do.

Both strategies, IW protecting the whole F4 and making them invulnerable while Torch Nova blasts the X-Men, and Emma mind wiping the F4 and Kitty phasing them to death, are cheap idealistic arguments.

I think the F4 would out last the X-Men in a straight up realistic battle.

And I think this particular set of X-Men is more likely to win in a "straight up realistic battle." Take out Shadowcat and Emma Frost and the FF win easily - but they're there. Anti-telepathic devices in a non-prep fight? Based on an assumption that they always have anti-telepathic devices - when most recently in the crossover in which "Emma and Sue fight and Sue is faster than telepathy" they succumb to telepathy?

Oh and I don't see why Emma Frost using telepathy on the FF is a "cheap idealistic argument" considering she's a telepath. It's actually perfectly in character - whereas a Torch nova-blast to kill isn't. What exactly do you expect her to do? Throw rocks?

I think it'd be stupid not to have the anti-telepathic devices on you at all times. Especially if it's just built into the suits. Otherwise it'd be like "The FF have a defense against anything but they always leave it at home so you always get one free shot!"

So you're saying we should give the FF every single item they've ever once built and used even in non-prep fights?

No. I'm saying it wouldn't be the craziest concept in the universe for people who have costumes with anti-telepath devices built-in to actually wear them.

Besides, Reed is a shapeshifter, who apparently have great resistance or possibly immunity to telepathy, and Wynnder insures us that Sue keeps a field up at all times in case of sneak attacks.

Sue would only need to notice white queen and her turncoated teammates to know to put shields around their heads.

Why do u argue about what the F4 have/dont have, can/cannot do, when u apparently don't know much about them. Anti Telepathy isnt a big deal for Reed. Although they may appear rather simple, the F4 costumes r actually pretty complex. Reed's costume at least, functions as a supercomputer integrated into unstable molecules. They also repair themselves.

Like I said, it makes perfect sense for them to always have a defense against telepathy...otherwise Doom, Hyperstorm, and the Skrulls wouldnt go through the trouble of such elaborate plans if all they need is one mediocre mutant telepath to beat the F4.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
No. I'm saying it wouldn't be the craziest concept in the universe for people who have costumes with anti-telepath devices built-in to actually wear them.The same people who stroll into the Xavier Institute, full well knowing that telepaths reside there and are subdued by telepathy? You're basing your argument on them always having these (prep) devices - strange definition of "always".

Reed isn't a metamorph his powers make his body malleable - you're stretching as much as he can if you're saying his powers would give him telepathic resistance because Mystique has developed resistance.

First off if she keeps a forcefield up all the time she would never get attacked - ever. So I do question the veracity of that claim. Secondly the forcefield kept up all the time is a specialised one that prevents force from entering, yet is ventilated for respiration, and allows light in and out, heat to escape and blocks telepathy? Third, setting up forcefields is specifically mentioned in the "prep rule". Fourth, she can't seal off their heads and protect them from telepathy considering there's be a big ol' hole in the forcefield where the field stops at the neck. Telepathy isn't water. Fifth, you're premise is still based on the illogical Sue>faster>telepathy. She can take over multiple people with ease - even those trained by Charles Xavier to resist telepathy.
And finally Emma doesn't even have to control anyone, she can just do this:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/anticryste/bliss.jpg

But then a "mediocre telepath" (who schooled the Omega level Rachel Summers due to her skill) using telepathy is just a "cheap idealistic argument". Those X-Men... they should just stick to being "mutant crimefighters."

*sigh* Im not trying to personally offend u by arguing against the X-Men but it seems like u r taking it that way.

By "mediocre telepath" Im not explicitely refering to Emma. Emma isnt mediocre at all! in one of her classic appearances she battled Jean Grey when she possessed the Phoenix Force!

I was pointing out that if the F4 didnt routinely have defense against a power as common as telepathy in the MU, then the why would someone like Doom go through the trouble of nurturing Tyros back to health and granting him the Power Cosmic again so that he could go toe-to-toe with the F4, when he could give some morlock twenty bucks to mind-wipe them then blast them with a disinigrator?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The same people who stroll into the Xavier Institute, full well knowing that telepaths reside there and are subdued by telepathy? You're basing your argument on them always having these (prep) devices - strange definition of "always".

Reed isn't a metamorph his powers make his body malleable - you're stretching as much as he can if you're saying his powers would give him telepathic resistance because Mystique has developed resistance.

First off if she keeps a forcefield up all the time she would never get attacked - ever. So I do question the veracity of that claim. Secondly the forcefield kept up all the time is a specialised one that prevents force from entering, yet is ventilated for respiration, and allows light in and out, heat to escape and blocks telepathy? Third, setting up forcefields is specifically mentioned in the "prep rule". Fourth, she can't seal off their heads and protect them from telepathy considering there's be a big ol' hole in the forcefield where the field stops at the neck. Telepathy isn't water. Fifth, you're premise is still based on the illogical Sue>faster>telepathy. She can take over multiple people with ease - even those trained by Charles Xavier to resist telepathy.

But then a "mediocre telepath" (who schooled the Omega level Rachel Summers due to her skill) using telepathy is just a "cheap idealistic argument". Those X-Men... they should just stick to being "mutant crimefighters." OHHH...xmarksthespot, you have forgotten to mention that the FF have emergency plans, devices and tactics for EVERY possible situation at ANY time. That's why they win every fight in their series within the first two seconds!

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The same people who stroll into the Xavier Institute, full well knowing that telepaths reside there and are subdued by telepathy? You're basing your argument on them always having these (prep) devices - strange definition of "always".
No, not really. It's just one option.


I've heard from multiple people that shapeshifting causes problems with telepathy. I'm not quite sure if he counts but I figure the elongation and no internal organ thing would make it close enough.


You make it sound as if it's some huge challenge to make a friggen forcefield. Sue's been making forcefields for like 40 years. It's probably as easy as you or I manipulating the muscles in our face.

When you smile do you have to go through the grueling task of remembering which muscles make a smile and then painfully concentrate to maintain it?


Tell it to Marvel. It works with Juggernaut and Magneto, who actually has an open faced helmet.


Why would it be so illogical? They're both, likely, quickdraws and Sue would at *least* get herself. Then it'd be the simple process of freeing/protecting the others with more forcefields.


Blah blah bliss button. Those are normal people. They're not really as mentally fortified as people who fight space zombies and crap every other day.


Nobody's saying Emma isn't good. It's just silly to think a low level telepath could just make Thing blindside his teammates at an autograph signing or something because they left their telepathy blocking suits at home because no telepaths called them up ahead of time to fight.

To be good you have to be good and the FF are good.

Originally posted by Wynndar
*sigh* Im not trying to personally offend u by arguing against the X-Men but it seems like u r taking it that way.Dude... you think a versus forum fight about fictional characters is going to offend me?

You're basing you're entire argument on two big assumptions though: That Sue is faster than Emma. That the FF cannot be subdued by telepathic attack because of devices that have been claimed to be always on them and yet have been shown to not be always on them and thus require prep.

Oh and Doom is much too classy and elaborate to just send telepaths to take out the FF - doesn't mean it wouldn't work.

Swanky -
Juggernaut's helmet and armour are mystical in nature if I recall correctly. And Mags helmet is specially designed to prevent telepathy - it's not a forcefield so it doesn't encapsulate.
She's going to free the others who have been mindblasted unconscious? And the point of that would be?
She's mindblasted/taken control of students of Charles Xavier, trained to resist psionic attack, with ease. Tell me - who trained the FF to resist psionic attack?

NO device SPECIFICALLY designed to protect from telepathy has shown to grant actual immunity so far, not even Jugg's helmet.

Btw...since when are there such devices included into the suits of the FF? I don't mean to question that, i just didn't notice it in the comics i have of them.

its not a matter of being quicker unless its a sneak attack on IW because with a constant shield on and anti-telepathic suit always on and she has a degree of telepathy to sense an on coming attack to ramp up her shields. Not just a snap of your finger knock out by a long shot. Take emma outta this and it is a FF victory, right now more a stalemate.

plus i think if IW can withstand emma's first attack her counter will tie her up for along time, multiple forcefields.

I have an issue where X-man took on the FF by himself. It was quite a good issue. he managed to mind control Thing and managed to get him to take out the Torch who didn't think his teammate would be able to do. Then he made thing attack Mr Fantastic an he also mind controlled the Torch to attack Reed, as he did this the Invisible Woman made some forcefields around Nates chest and threatened to squeeze and suffocate him unless he stopped which he did. It turned out it was all a training session and reed had physic bafflers in his ears to not be controlled by Nate. However Jonny and Ben had them too but Nate managed to remove Ben's and control Jonny despite them...........

Yep

Originally posted by willRules
I have an issue where X-man took on the FF by himself. It was quite a good issue. he managed to mind control Thing and managed to get him to take out the Torch who didn't think his teammate would be able to do. Then he made thing attack Mr Fantastic an he also mind controlled the Torch to attack Reed, as he did this the Invisible Woman made some forcefields around Nates chest and threatened to squeeze and suffocate him unless he stopped which he did. It turned out it was all a training session and reed had physic bafflers in his ears to not be controlled by Nate. However Jonny and Ben had them too but Nate managed to remove Ben's and control Jonny despite them...........

So basically yes the FF do have physic bafflers/earpieces but they can be renderred useless quite easily..........

Originally posted by Metalmanx
X-men. They've got the superior firepower here. Especially with the certain characters being on here.

Colossus can take Thing. And with Beast's help, they can toss Thing aside somewhere a mile away.

Cyclops could DEFINITELY keep Human Torch at bay. Hell, he might even take him alone. But if he can't, Colossus can "Fastball Special" Wolverine right at Human Torch when he isn't looking. There goes HT.

Mr. Fantastic could be taken out by Shadowcat alone.

Invisible Woman will have her hands already full with Emma, who I'm sure will be making IW's mind a living hell. If IW is still fighting then, Shadowcat can easily bypass IW's shield and thrash her.

So, like previously stated. The X-men win this fight. Good choice of X-men for the team there.
I agree except with the Mr. Fantastic and Shadowcat thing. Kitty is good, but Reed is just much better, experienced and smarter. He'll probably know her weaknesses better than Shadowcat does.

her weakness is pritty much wolverine lol. if she even trys fazing throu him she gets like nocked out lol. he fine by the way when it happens

yes but wolverine isnt fighting his teamates..........

I know thats what im sayign so besides that she realy doesent have one lol

X-men. .

Haven't we gone over this subject of Telepathy vs FF enough before? They don't have sufficient shielding in non-prep.

yup

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Swanky -
Juggernaut's helmet and armour are mystical in nature if I recall correctly. And Mags helmet is specially designed to prevent telepathy - it's not a forcefield so it doesn't encapsulate.
I know they block telepathy and why. That's why I mentioned them. The point was they have big giant holes in them just like the forcefield.


How is Emma going to see the battle, decide to active her powers, use her powers to control a FF member, then see the battle, then decide she would rather give them orgasms, activate her powers again, use her powers to give orgasms, see the battle, decide to know them out, then activate her powers once more, then use them to mindblast them all in the time it takes Sue's forcefield to set up because thinking doesn't count, only power activation.


Generic Xavier students are friggen extras. Pawns. Mooks.

Originally posted by LexCorp
its not a matter of being quicker unless its a sneak attack on IW because with a constant shield on and anti-telepathic suit always on and she has a degree of telepathy to sense an on coming attack to ramp up her shields. Not just a snap of your finger knock out by a long shot. Take emma outta this and it is a FF victory, right now more a stalemate. Firstly I contest the "constant shield on" as it's not an automated power, and they don't always have anti-telepathic devices in their suits unless your definition of "always" is "sometimes when necessary to the plot."
And Sue Richards is a telepath precognitive now...? Okay... right....
Take out Emma and the FF can do absolutely nothing to Shadowcat or anyone she phases with her.
Originally posted by Creshosk
X-men. .

Haven't we gone over this subject of Telepathy vs FF enough before? They don't have sufficient shielding in non-prep. Yes. Yes we have. Bored of arguing in circles now so this is my last post in the thread.Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
I know they block telepathy and why. That's why I mentioned them. The point was they have big giant holes in them just like the forcefield.Juggernaut's helmet and armour are magical, I recall his helmet when on, is bonded to his armour by magical seal, and whence bonded he is invulnerable to psionic attack - the design of his armour and helmet is extraneous. Magneto's helmet doesn't physically block telepathy it's design prevents telepathy from affecting him. Sue makes forcefields - barriers - a barrier with a hole in it isn't doing jack.
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
How is Emma going to see the battle, decide to active her powers, use her powers to control a FF member, then see the battle, then decide she would rather give them orgasms, activate her powers again, use her powers to give orgasms, see the battle, decide to know them out, then activate her powers once more, then use them to mindblast them all in the time it takes Sue's forcefield to set up because thinking doesn't count, only power activation.It's a battle so why have you got Emma playing games. She's changing her mind as to what she wants to do several times - just so Sue can get a hit in? Fight starts she'd most probably use her most offensive power and that's a mindblast. It's irrelevant because if she's going to control them she'll control them all, if she's going to telepathicall make orgasm to unconsciousness she'll do it to all four, if she's going to mindblast she does it to all four.
And you're still going with illogical Sue>faster>telepathy? Telepathy is the thought.
Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Generic Xavier students are friggen extras. Pawns. Mooks. I meant students trained by Charles to resist psionic attack as in X-Men - Beast, Wolverine, Colossus etc. Now tell me, who trained the FF in techniques to resist psionic attack?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Juggernaut's helmet and armour are magical, I recall his helmet when on, is bonded to his armour by magical seal, and whence bonded he is invulnerable to psionic attack - the design of his armour and helmet is extraneous.
His second helmet blocks telepathy too and there's a big gap between where that one ends and his armor begins.


How is it any different? Hmm... in fact, isn't Magneto hard to read anyway on account of his willpower? The same as Doom if I recall correctly. Sue has pretty high willpower.


No, really I was just remembering your earlier arguement on the different types of forcefields, pooling all my willpower into moving my fingers together, and typing out a post that poked fun at that.


And at least Sue would be protected.


Forcefields aren't pizzas. They don't take half an hour to arrive. In both situations there's a result with a thought. One offense and one defense. They meet at a crossroads in the woods and one has an amulet and the other a ring. Logically the one with the staff would cancel out the one with the cloak.


From what I've gathered, with great will comes resistance to telepathy. And energy welders tend to have mighty willpower.

Sue's going to be completely unfazed by a mindblast because of willpower?
Uh... Magneto's resistance comes from his electromagnetic powers.

Storm has had training from Xavier to resist mental attacks, high willpower, electromagnetic powers, and has been a telepath temporarily and still she goes down from a mindblast when Emma isn't even going all out.

Yet Sue is completely unfazed from a mindblast simply because she's Sue? Okay... this really has reached the point of being pointless.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Sue's going to be completely unfazed by a mindblast because of willpower?
Uh... Magneto's resistance comes from his electromagnetic powers.

Storm has had training from Xavier to resist mental attacks, high willpower, electromagnetic powers, and has been a telepath temporarily and still she goes down from a mindblast when Emma isn't even going all out.

Yet Sue is completely unfazed from a mindblast simply because she's Sue? Okay... this really has reached the point of being pointless.
My cheeks are sore from all the words you're putting in my mouth.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Sue's going to be completely unfazed by a mindblast because of willpower?
Uh... Magneto's resistance comes from his electromagnetic powers.

Storm has had training from Xavier to resist mental attacks, high willpower, electromagnetic powers, and has been a telepath temporarily and still she goes down from a mindblast when Emma isn't even going all out.

Yet Sue is completely unfazed from a mindblast simply because she's Sue? Okay... this really has reached the point of being pointless.

U know ur making a lot of good points and I respect that, but Simply Sue? Hmmm....she's seen and done more than that whole X-Team. I dont think ur aknowledging her powers and experience. Actually, I dont think you've aknowledged anything about the F4 or anyone they've fought in the past. The only example u've brought up is X4 which wasnt even in continuity. I think if u knew more about what the F4 have done and faced u wouldnt even be making this argument.

Sue is definitely one of the most powerful earthborn heroes there is but that doesn't mean sheer willpower is going to protect her from a mind assault. Given time she could blow holes right through the X-Men (bar Shadowcat) and I'm sure she could shield her team from telepathy - but that all depends on her being able to act faster than telepathy can knock out her team and at the very least stun her enough to prevent her from using her powers effectively. Imo logically telepathy effects faster than forcefields.

Both teams could win in a well written realistic fight.

Actually, Dr Doom has withstood Xavier's telepathy from his sheer willpower...Doom's a crazy bastard though

Even if this fight came down to this showdown between Emma and Sue scenerio, I still have to give it to Sue. She is a real warrior, and leader... lead the F4 against Exitar, Galactus, Hyperstorm. She has experienced mental attacks too, in fact she was mind raped by Galactus...it was pretty impressive.

Emma's had some pretty impressive showing lately too, i.e. against the Golgotha, the latest Brotherhood and Black Tom...But I dont think I'll ever have level of respect for her that I have for Sue.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/anticryste/emmaff.jpg
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=364456&perpage=20&highlight=Emma+Sue+Speed+of+thought&pagenumber=5



Originally posted by Wynndar
Actually, Dr Doom has withstood Xavier's telepathy from his sheer willpower...Doom's a crazy bastard though

Even if this fight came down to this showdown between Emma and Sue scenerio, I still have to give it to Sue. She is a real warrior, and leader... lead the F4 against Exitar, Galactus, Hyperstorm. She has experienced mental attacks too, in fact she was mind raped by Galactus...it was pretty impressive.

Emma's had some pretty impressive showing lately too, i.e. against the Golgotha, the latest Brotherhood and Black Tom...But I dont think I'll ever have level of respect for her that I have for Sue. Your level of respect for her has no bearing on the outcome of the fight.

Originally posted by Creshosk
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/anticryste/emmaff.jpg
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=364456&perpage=20&highlight=Emma+Sue+Speed+of+thought&pagenumber=5



Your level of respect for her has no bearing on the outcome of the fight.

Well...I guess u didnt get my point. Since we are all expressing our subjective opinions on this fight, many of us are chosing a side based on which character we like most or respect most or know the most about.

I honestly dont consider u anymore objective than myself. U are generally an X-Men/Wolverine supporter while I'm generally an F4 supporter...just being honest.

I respect IW more because what I know she's done...Im not even going to use the argument that if this group has taken on Exitar, Galactus, Abraxis, the Dreaming Celestial, Ego, Overmind, Watcher Doom, Cosmic Doom, Occulus, etc. I dont think they would even take this team of X-Men seriously.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Well...I guess u didnt get my point. Since we are all expressing our subjective opinions on this fight, many of us are chosing a side based on which character we like most or respect most or know the most about.

I honestly dont consider u anymore objective than myself. U are generally an X-Men/Wolverine supporter while I'm generally an F4 supporter...just being honest.

I respect IW more because what I know she's done...Im not even going to use the argument that if this group has taken on Exitar, Galactus, Abraxis, the Dreaming Celestial, Ego, Overmind, Watcher Doom, Cosmic Doom, Occulus, etc. I dont think they would even take this team of X-Men seriously. Right. . which is why I support any of the FF over Wolverine . . . right?

Hey Im not calling u a fanboy...ur not Wolverine8888. Im just saying I get the impression u like them. Im not saying u get irrational. I like the X-Men too. X-Men is my favorite book right now. The art and writing is better than F4 at the present.

Neither of us is saying anything wrong, I was just defending myself against ur comment about my respect for IW over Emma.

X-men with ease.

Too many factors.

wolverine
cyclops
gambit
professor x
jean*cough* pheonix*cough* grey
They don't even need to nothing except let pheonix take em on while the rest of the x-men have a coke and a smile.

read the first page...thats not the X-team in this thread.

A lot of you seem convinced Cyclops can take down the Torch, Im not too sure about this...............

I love how wynndar talks crap about me when I havent been posting in this thread lol by the way u know nuthing wynndar lol thing beating wolverine is a joke hell thing when ever wolverine fights to kill or gets realy pissed takes him out in seconds. enemy of the state wait what it take totaly of 5 seconds for thing to be taken down. any ways X-men win this

X-Men win.

When I created this thread I thought the teams were pretty even and I
think the almost are but the deciding factors in this fight are either Torch's nova blast or Shadowcat's phasin...............

X-team wins and yes i have read the thread

Originally posted by wolverine8888
I love how wynndar talks crap about me when I havent been posting in this thread lol by the way u know nuthing wynndar lol thing beating wolverine is a joke hell thing when ever wolverine fights to kill or gets realy pissed takes him out in seconds. enemy of the state wait what it take totaly of 5 seconds for thing to be taken down. any ways X-men win this

...judging by the way u write, there is no way u read all those panels in 5 seconds.

And dont take it personal...but u r considered a *gasp!!!* fanboy by most people in this forum, thats why I used your example.

the whole phasing deaths vs nova blast is weak as this is the exceptions, not the regular m.o. 's of the characters. Like saying silver surfer can just change molecules, magneto/ice man can control blood and IW puttin a bubble up someones nose.

I'm not sure who would win, but the X-men have the advantage in numbers. Though that doesn't mean much when both sides have superpowers, it would help them slightly.

Originally posted by willRules
I agrre but are you guys sure cyke can handle torch, who can go all supernova?
Okay, the "supernova" thing was too powerful and required IW to make a bubble around HT to contain it (at least in the game). With Emma Frost attacking her mind, I doubt IW would be able to concentrate enough to make the shield to protect the three not-flame covered members of the FF.

Originally posted by LexCorp
the whole phasing deaths vs nova blast is weak as this is the exceptions, not the regular m.o. 's of the characters. Like saying silver surfer can just change molecules, magneto/ice man can control blood and IW puttin a bubble up someones nose.

I agree...but the F4 are generally more powerful than X-characters. They are a quartet that takes on challenges on the meta-galactic scale. The X-Men have an enormous roster and still get hastled by Black Tom, "?Mammomax?", Avalanche, and Sabretooth. Thus I can see them simply out powering this group.

I agree that shadowcat can take out most if not all the FF, but I don't think Cyke can take Torch..........

wynndar it happen in 2 panels

Hehehehehe

Oh Wolverine8888

Originally posted by Wynndar
I agree...but the F4 are generally more powerful than X-characters. They are a quartet that takes on challenges on the meta-galactic scale. The X-Men have an enormous roster and still get hastled by Black Tom, "?Mammomax?", Avalanche, and Sabretooth. Thus I can see them simply out powering this group.

I don't agree that the FF are generally more powerful than X-characters at all. For every member of the FF, there's an X-man that is at least a match in power. Granted, there are a lot more X-men to choose from, so they have the advantage of selection, but still, I don't believe it's a correct assumption that the FF are more powerful.

I don't think anyone can effectively argue that the FF are more powerful than, say, Iceman, Phoenix, Storm, and Colossus. And that's just one combination.

To me, the FF are effective not because they're powerful (aside from Sue and sometimes Johnny, they're not), but because they're well-connected and great with prep and inventions. They have Uatu on speed-dial and are on pretty friendly terms with Galactus. With prep, I think they are a match for most teams and most opponents. The problem is that they don't have that luxury on these threads. They're innately disadvantaged on no-prep battle boards. I find that, relying in their power alone without prep, they usually lose to the likes of the Fearsome Four (who count among their members such powerhouses as Paste Pot Pete). That's why I'd give most permutations of four X-men the win over the FF in most threads.

Hmm...yea the fearsome four years ago...good point.

Phoenix is more powerful than any member of the F4...but that is the PF, not necessarily her own power. Xavier too.

Colossus? When has he done ANYTHING that demonstrated power?

Iceman? Was taken down by lasers and sleeping gas in his last appearance....Jeez the F4 should have called him last time they had trouble with Dr Doom.

Storm...powerful...but loses to F4 characters just as its demonstrated in the Storm v HT thread

Originally posted by Wynndar
Hmm...yea the fearsome four years ago...good point.

Phoenix is more powerful than any member of the F4...but that is the PF, not necessarily her own power. Xavier too.

Colossus? When has he done ANYTHING that demonstrated power?

Iceman? Was taken down by lasers and sleeping gas in his last appearance....Jeez the F4 should have called him last time they had trouble with Dr Doom.

Storm...powerful...but loses to F4 characters just as its demonstrated in the Storm v HT thread

Fearsome Four "years" ago? They last beat the FF during Pacheco's run, within the last four years. You make it sound like it was AGES ago.

Phoenix, as one of GS's essays will tell you, is one with the force. She's the ultimate expression of her mutation. It's her own power. Are are you saying Xavier taps into the Phoenix Force as well???

Colossus did better against Gladiator than the entire Fantastic Four, who got completely manhandled until they introduced...you guessed it, prep time and inventions, which again prove the point I was making before. Thing didn't last more than a couple of panels. Colossus lasted several pages and brought down entire structures in the fight. He also did well against the Juggernaut. He's more than a match for the Thing.

The Iceman who was taken down by lasers was in the HoM. His history was different as a result, as was his training and memories. While everybody had basically the same powers, their adeptness with those powers vary. HoM Iceman never trained with Emma, never trained with Mikhail, never got boosted by Prosh. So he never learned to put his powers to full use and overcome psychosomatic defeats like being torn apart by lasers in HoM that way he did in 616. He was basically at X-factor level, when he was much more beatable. Your example is meaningless. Regular 616 Iceman is a beast because of his training.

Since when was board opinion used as evidence of what would happen in a comic? Because some posters said Storm would lose to Iceman, suddenly we're referencing that as proof of some kind? If you want to use official proof, you have to go to their actual encounter where, as luck would have it, Storm and HT did actually fight.

I don't think I need to discuss the outcome. We all know what it was.

Human Torch gets put out by things like sprinklers, fire hydrants and foam. MULTIPLE TIMES. You call that powerful?

Yea u've got some good points. Board opinion doesnt mean much...but I was moreso refering to the points and scans people have made.

Colossus lost to Gladiator who was scaled down in comparison to his fight against the F4...Byrne had him survive a solar system destroying explosion without a scratch, then had him pick up the Baxter building. Against Colossus they traded some punches but it was clear Gladiator wasnt making the kind of showing he was against the F4...and Colossus didnt make the guy flinch. Gladiator went all out against the Thing knocked him out eventually...and minutes later Thing got up and punched the bus Gladiator buried him with into the sky. Then he manhandled a Skrull imitating Colossus with superior powers. In the end the F4 beat the Skrulls and Gladiator. We could argue all day about Colossus and Thing, but in the end Thing has way more accomplishments and is clearly demonstrated as being more powerful.

I guess u dont read comic books much lately if u say Iceman is HOM in Black Panther #8 or X-Men #175...cuz Im pretty sure its 616...and yes he was taken down by Lasers and sleeping gas...he's not immortal or invulnerable...or sh!t He froze some mutant crocadiles and X-Fans treat him like a Sky-Father!

Of course we know the outcome of this fight...The F4 r the Earth's first defense from cosmic threats. The X-Men mostly stick to fighting evil mutants. Marvel's most accomplished and experienced team against one who's characters and roster are practically disposable, yea it would be interesting to read but the F4 would come out on top.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Yea u've got some good points. Board opinion doesnt mean much...but I was moreso refering to the points and scans people have made.

Colossus lost to Gladiator who was scaled down in comparison to his fight against the F4...Byrne had him survive a solar system destroying explosion without a scratch, then had him pick up the Baxter building. Against Colossus they traded some punches but it was clear Gladiator wasnt making the kind of showing he was against the F4...and Colossus didnt make the guy flinch. Gladiator went all out against the Thing knocked him out eventually...and minutes later Thing got up and punched the bus Gladiator buried him with into the sky. Then he manhandled a Skrull imitating Colossus with superior powers. In the end the F4 beat the Skrulls and Gladiator. We could argue all day about Colossus and Thing, but in the end Thing has way more accomplishments and is clearly demonstrated as being more powerful.

I guess u dont read comic books much lately if u say Iceman is HOM in Black Panther #8 or X-Men #175...cuz Im pretty sure its 616...and yes he was taken down by Lasers and sleeping gas...he's not immortal or invulnerable...or sh!t He froze some mutant crocadiles and X-Fans treat him like a Sky-Father!

Of course we know the outcome of this fight...The F4 r the Earth's first defense from cosmic threats. The X-Men mostly stick to fighting evil mutants. Marvel's most accomplished and experienced team against one who's characters and roster are practically disposable, yea it would be interesting to read but the F4 would come out on top.

Wow. Way to severely downgrade the "evil mutants" the X-men fight.

I can think of many X-men enemies that would destroy the Fantastic Four.

Magneto.
Juggernaut (Classic)
Apocalypse.
Polaris (when she was an enemy).
Selene.
Scarlet Witch.
Shadow King.

Those are some.

If the X-men didn't take out these "evil mutants", they would take over the world. The FF couldn't do a thing to stop these enemies.

By the way, didn't Colossus "manhandle" a Hulk-Skrull? Yes, yes he did.

And I could be wrong, but to my knowledge at least, HOM isn't 616. Again, I could be wrong.

Iceman suffers from a severe case of Flash like PIS - thus you disregard that he is nigh invulnerable to physical death?

Check out my new "Fantastic Four vs. Magneto" thread.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Wow. Way to severely downgrade the "evil mutants" the X-men fight.

I can think of many X-men enemies that would destroy the Fantastic Four.

Magneto.-------------------------No
Juggernaut (Classic)------------No
Apocalypse.---------------------No
Polaris (when she was an enemy).-------No
Selene.--------------------------No
Scarlet Witch.-------------------No-----And not an enemy of the Xmen.
Shadow King.-------------------No

Those are some.

If the X-men didn't take out these "evil mutants", they would take over the world. The FF couldn't do a thing to stop these enemies.

By the way, didn't Colossus "manhandle" a Hulk-Skrull?
Yes, yes he did.------------------------------The big problem no rage increased strength for the Skrulk...

And I could be wrong, but to my knowledge at least, HOM isn't 616. Again, I could be wrong.

Originally posted by Tony Stark


Scarlet Witch was indeed an enemy at a time.

And all those "No"s...are you saying that the Fantastic Four would beat them all?

Or are you agreeing with me?

I think the "No"s are that he thinks those villains in a non-prep would lose to the FF. The Shadow King, Classic Juggernaut, Magneto, Apocalypse (if not written as pathetic), would most definitely kill the FF in a non-prep battle. Selene too.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I think the "No"s are that he thinks those villains in a non-prep would lose to the FF. The Shadow King, Classic Juggernaut, Magneto, Apocalypse (if not written as pathetic), would most definitely kill the FF in a non-prep battle. Selene too.

You don't think Scarlet Witch or Polaris could do it, too?

Depends on which SW. Current one can beat pretty much anyone.

Polaris when possessed by Sinister's agent Malice or Polaris when she went nuts?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Depends on which SW. Current one can beat pretty much anyone.

Polaris when possessed by Sinister's agent Malice or Polaris when she went nuts?

I think either Polaris can do it.

Hmm I'm trying to remember whether the retro Polaris was that powerful. Crazy Polaris would fare well imo.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Hmm I'm trying to remember whether the retro Polaris was that powerful. Crazy Polaris would fare well imo.

I agree completely. And by agree, I mean that she will probably stomp them.

? half a dozen earthly villains who wouldnt even bother attacking the F4 cuz they'd get their asses thrown in the negative zone and cancelled out of reality.

Yes the F4 have fought "The Trapster"

But they've also fought the dreaming Celestial on multiple occasions
Galactus on multiple occasions
Ego
Annihilus
The Destroyer
Terrax
Abraxis
Hyperstorm
Occulus
Silver Surfer
The Inhumans
Aron the rogue Watcher
Dr Doom
Terminus
The list goes on


Where r u going with this..."well look who's fought the tougher villains" argument? SHADOWKING????

Physically fight or fight with Reed's brain... for the most part they don't kick Galactus ass with their powers.

And I maintain the FF can't do a thing to stop the Shadow King in a non-prep fight.

Exactly. No-prep: Shadow King rapes them something nasty.

Actually, no-prep, the rest of the people I mentioned will also rape them.

Thats assuming Shadowking sneaks up on them...a telepathic being...who could do the same to any number of X-Men without telepathy. However, I still think defeating a powerful telepath isnt nearly as dificult as beating a CELESTIAL.

And no...without prep, in a bloodlust situation the F4 rape all those characters...F4 in a bloodlust situation where Reed takes on the Dark Raider qualities and Sue acts as MAlice either of them could handle those guys on their own.

Magneto
Juggernaut (Classic)
Apocalypse
Polaris (when she was an enemy)
Selene
Scarlet Witch
Shadow King
^ These characters? Really?
With Magneto and Polaris again it's a matter of whose power's work faster. Polaris knocksout a wedding-full of people instantaneously. Magneto can do the same only better and faster.
Shadow King would either take control of them or pull their minds onto the Astral plane, his domain. He can't be killed in the physical realm.
None of their physical powers short of a nova blast would kill Apocalyse. Unless he's written pathetic as usual.
Very few people beat current Scarlet Witch.
Classic Juggernaut. Nuff said. They have no magic they have no telepathy.
Only IW actually stands a chance to do anything to Selene.

If I put a combo of those characters together would you still side with the FF?

Tell me Wynndar do the FF rape:
Fury
Cassandra Nova
Exodus
Proteus

Without prep.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Magneto
Juggernaut (Classic)
Apocalypse
Polaris (when she was an enemy)
Selene
Scarlet Witch
Shadow King
^ These characters? Really?
With Magneto and Polaris again it's a matter of whose power's work faster. Polaris knocksout a wedding-full of people instantaneously. Magneto can do the same only better and faster.
Shadow King would either take control of them or pull their minds onto the Astral plane, his domain. He can't be killed in the physical realm.
None of their physical powers short of a nova blast would kill Apocalyse. Unless he's written pathetic as usual.
Very few people beat current Scarlet Witch.
Classic Juggernaut. Nuff said. They have no magic they have no telepathy.
Only IW actually stands a chance to do anything to Selene.

If I put a combo of those characters together would you still side with the FF?

Tell me Wynndar do the FF rape:
Fury
Cassandra Nova
Exodus
Proteus

Without prep.

Ah, yes. I forgot about some of those characters.

Don't forget Legion.

Technically Onslaught although pan-comic, started as an X-Men villain, he's composed of Xavier and Magneto and he first appeared in X-Men. But hey he's just a lowly Earth villain - who nearly killed all the heroes in the MU.

I'm still trying to figure out what exactly the FF plan to do to Classic Juggs. I should make a thread.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Technically Onslaught although pan-comic, started as an X-Men villain, he's composed of Xavier and Magneto and he first appeared in X-Men. But hey he's just a lowly Earth villain - who nearly killed all the heroes in the MU.

I'm still trying to figure out what exactly the FF plan to do to Classic Juggs. I should make a thread.

You're exactly right. Onslaught was indeed an X-men villian. One that the FF would have to bow down to since they have no chance of defeating him.

And you should make a thread of that!

Classic Juggernaut vs. Fantastic Four.

Go hit up my "Fantastic Four vs. Magneto" thread again. It needs so more replies, .

There was an F4 Jugs thread last yea i think.

Your argument against the F4 still isnt working. The F4 would be at a disadvantage fighting telepathic villains or villains who are vulnerable to telepathy...but still just as capable as the X-Men.

Why bring up the argument of Juggernaut's, Apoc's, Onslaught's raw power?

Before fighting Onslaught, the F4 had just came home from beating Hyperstorm...they couldnt take Onslaught seriously...Hyperstorm was more powerful than all these X-Villains combined.

Actually it's your argument that the FF win this and that "cos look at this list of villains I compiled." Well the thing is they would lose in a lot of non-prep fights to these X-Men villains and a lot of the villains in the lists you compiled. Trying to belittle other characters doesn't change that. But hey if it floats your boat.

Metalmax started the list of villains argument back on page six.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Colossus lost to Gladiator who was scaled down in comparison to his fight against the F4...Byrne had him survive a solar system destroying explosion without a scratch, then had him pick up the Baxter building. Against Colossus they traded some punches but it was clear Gladiator wasnt making the kind of showing he was against the F4...and Colossus didnt make the guy flinch.


Your only evidence that Gladiator was more powerful against the FF than against Colossus is your underestimation of Colossus. "Oh, well, he struggled against Colossus but manhandled the entire Fantastic Four. Obviously he was less powerful when he fought Colossus". But there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that his powers were any different. It's the same Gladiator who, a couple of issues before, took out an entire team of X-men before getting stopped by the Phoenix Force. Canon is canon and canon dictates that he beat Thing MUCH more easily than Colossus, who didn't go down against Gladiator until an entire city came down on their heads. Even you don't dispute this.



All out? Eventually? I read the issue....you're kidding me. He took down Thing in a few panels, no going all out was necessary. Compare his "battle" with the Thing to his battle with Colossus and tell me which one was a better example of Gladiator going "all out".

Just for reference, Colossus also did better against Black Bolt than Thing did.



Cyclops owned a Skrull imitating Thor with "superior" powers. Those Skrulls are all hype.



Way more accomplishments, yes. I'll actually grant you that. But he's an older character who has been a regular in a comic its entire run over a half century. Colossus spent a lot of time being non-existent, dead, or on the sidelines among a cast of dozens. So is Thing's resume better? Of course. You have to compare similar situations, like their respective fights against other characters. In each of those, Colossus has consistently fared better than Ben under similar circumstances. That's the only evidence that counts in my book.



The issue where he was taken out by lasers, wasn't that the issue where he was working for Apocalypse?

There are scans all over this board of crazy Iceman feats....they go far beyond mutant crocodiles.

Besides, if you want to play the "taken out by lasers" game, Human Torch got extinguished by a fire hydrant (multiple times), a Sprinkler system, Hydroman, Storm's winds and some foam.

And Thing seems to make a habit out of getting owned by Wolverine.



The X-men fight evil mutants not because of their power level but because it's their stated mission. The FF are cosmic explorers, as such they run into cosmic threats. And whenever the X-men do find themselves in cosmic situations (Dark Phoenix, M'Kraan Crystal, Brood, Celestials in Judgement War), they ALWAYS come out on top. They just have other goals.

I just don't see the FF having the raw power to compete with most X-men.

Originally posted by demigawd
Your only evidence that Gladiator was more powerful against the FF than against Colossus is your underestimation of Colossus. "Oh, well, he struggled against Colossus but manhandled the entire Fantastic Four. Obviously he was less powerful when he fought Colossus". But there's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that his powers were any different. It's the same Gladiator who, a couple of issues before, took out an entire team of X-men before getting stopped by the Phoenix Force. Canon is canon and canon dictates that he beat Thing MUCH more easily than Colossus, who didn't go down against Gladiator until an entire city came down on their heads. Even you don't dispute this.


Didnt u say u read the comic book? yes some rubble fell on top of Gladiator and Colossus...a battered Gladiator emerged. But in F4 Gladiator shrugged off an explosion that could "destroy half our star system" according to Richards...and it didnt even tear his mufnckin uniform! So r u saying these were comparable feats? Surviving that rubble compared to surviving a reaction that creates stars?

Originally posted by demigawd
All out? Eventually? I read the issue....you're kidding me. He took down Thing in a few panels, no going all out was necessary. Compare his "battle" with the Thing to his battle with Colossus and tell me which one was a better example of Gladiator going "all out".


No Im not kidding. Gladiator and Colossus traded blows. Although initially Colossus' attacks didnt make Gladiator blink. Gladiator hit the Thing and he tore through approximately forty cars in a straight vector. Gladiator was moving so fast that he was a blur. (was he a blur against Colossus?)Thing was also able to explicitely mumble he hadnt been hit that hard...ever. This is after fighting Hulk, the Destroyer, BlackBolt, Silver Surfer, Terrax, etc. Thing was back up moments later and punched the same bus Gladiator covered him with, far into the air...then went back into the fight.

Originally posted by demigawd
Just for reference, Colossus also did better against Black Bolt than Thing did.


Just for reference...this is nonsense...Thing has fought Blackbolt at least 3 times and has beaten him...I wasnt even aware Colossus fought him in 616.

Originally posted by demigawd
Way more accomplishments, yes. I'll actually grant you that. But he's an older character who has been a regular in a comic its entire run over a half century. Colossus spent a lot of time being non-existent, dead, or on the sidelines among a cast of dozens. So is Thing's resume better? Of course. You have to compare similar situations, like their respective fights against other characters. In each of those, Colossus has consistently fared better than Ben under similar circumstances. That's the only evidence that counts in my book.


Colossus has done better than Thing against Juggernaut? Well Thing is yet to fight Juggernaut in a straight up fight...he fought Juggernaut along with 98 other villains and still stopped Juggernaut from reaching his goal, touching the Beyonder-FACT.


Originally posted by demigawd
The issue where he was taken out by lasers, wasn't that the issue where he was working for Apocalypse?

There are scans all over this board of crazy Iceman feats....they go far beyond mutant crocodiles.

Besides, if you want to play the "taken out by lasers" game, Human Torch got extinguished by a fire hydrant (multiple times), a Sprinkler system, Hydroman, Storm's winds and some foam.

And Thing seems to make a habit out of getting owned by Wolverine.



No...BP #8 is in 616...I suggest u get it...and the latest issue of X-Men, its a crossover. Ur thinking of BP#7 when he decapitates Sabretooth. Human Torch being snuffed out is irrelavent. Im not going to argue his lowest flame can be snuffed out...he doesnt walk around at Nova temp. Examples of Torch's power have been posted on his vs Storm page...check it out. Iceman's getting beat by lasers and gas is an example of him not being invulnerable or immortal as X-fanboys persist. Wolverine has cheap shotted Thing so what? One backhand from Thing and Wolvie's back in Canada.

Originally posted by demigawd
The X-men fight evil mutants not because of their power level but because it's their stated mission. The FF are cosmic explorers, as such they run into cosmic threats. And whenever the X-men do find themselves in cosmic situations (Dark Phoenix, M'Kraan Crystal, Brood, Celestials in Judgement War), they ALWAYS come out on top. They just have other goals.

True...but the X-Men r not avidly involved in the cosmic world. M'Kraan and Phoenix r kinda the same example. The brood r not an example...they r big insects...not cosmics.

Originally posted by demigawd
I just don't see the FF having the raw power to compete with most X-men.

We can both have our opinion.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Didnt u say u read the comic book? yes some rubble fell on top of Gladiator and Colossus...a battered Gladiator emerged. But in F4 Gladiator shrugged off an explosion that could "destroy half our star system" according to Richards...and it didnt even tear his mufnckin uniform! So r u saying these were comparable feats? Surviving that rubble compared to surviving a reaction that creates stars?


I don't get it...he survived both. You can only argue a change in power level if he DIDN'T survive the rubble and DID survive the reaction that creates stars. Saying he survived both doesn't mean anything. Gladiator was battered because he was battling Colossus, not because of a structure collapsing. The collapsing structure is what did Colossus in. The fact that Gladiator emerged wounded against Colossus is a credit to Colossus.



The fight was shown differently in the Phoenix Saga. They didn't show the entire fight panel for panel the way it was shown in FF (largely because Thing was put down in only a few panels). Instead, it showed some images of Colossus' battle with Gladiator while describing it as being a very lengthy and very brutal epic that created an incredible amount of destruction. Again, a BIG difference in the way the two fights were portrayed that definitely showed Colossus in a better light.



Because, luckily, the FF just had Gladiator do deal with (and lose to), as opposed to the X-men, who had to fight not just Gladiator, but the entire Imperial Guard.

And I'm pretty sure Colossus hadn't been hit that hard....ever, either. Not sure what point you're trying to make with that.



Thing was completely owned by Black Bolt. Couldn't land a hit on him, then got the Master Blow and was totally out. Some time before Colossus died, the X-men traveled to the Moon and encountered the Inhumans, where Black Bolt was unable to put down Colossus.

I just recently read the other FF threads, and Juggernaut is another good example of Colossus outperforming Thing. It's been pretty consistent. Current Colossus is 15 tons stronger than Original Colossus, too.



I didn't say anything about Juggernaut until just now, because I didn't read the fight. But according to everybody else, Juggernaut took him out in three punches. Juggernaut was impressed with Colossus when they fought because Colossus did so well...and Colossus was drunk.




Oh, are you talking about the issue written by the guy who thinks Radioactive Man is Russian instead of Chinese and Black Knight is a villain instead of a hero? I don't use the PIS label very often, but when a writer makes as many continuity mistakes as Hudlin does, it applies. Besides, it's outweighed by tons of evidence to the contrary.



Exactly, because it burns him out faster and it harder to control. That's why. Wolverine was all over Torch and Torch was burning the flesh off his bones, but Wolverine still used a fire extingusher to put him out. So Torch's flame would have to be pretty high intensity to avoid being extinguished. Higher than his normal combat intensity.

I'm just saying, if you're going to reference one time Iceman had a low showing, I can reference the multiple times Torch got embarassed.



And yet Wolverine has never gone to Canada by way of the Thing Express. You saying Wolverine cheapshotted the Thing every time now? And it wasn't a cheapshot. Thing charged up on Wolverine in the Millar issue, and Wolverine took him down. In one shot.

I read the thread with Storm and HT just now. It clearly shows Storm beating HT, too. HT's only option was use of lethal force, going a step beyond where Storm was willing to go (but not a step beyond where Storm was more than capable of going).



No. Dark Phoenix is a completely different storyline from the M'Kraan-empowered D'Ken. The X-men also did better against Japh than the FF did. The X-men beat him. The FF had to talk their way out. All this, and the X-men are not avidly involved in the cosmic world, as you said. It's not their mission. But when they are, they've had a spotless record. That should say something.

Thing was class 5 tons in that fight u mentioned against BB...he's fought him many times though.

My points were pretty clear I thought so Im not going to get back into it

Good debating with u...Ive gotta get to class though man.

umm ok does anyone here really think cyclops can take the Human Torch?

I think reasonable arguments can be made for either, but I'd have to lean towards Torch for that fight. Cyclops is, in the final analysis, a guy with a gun. The gun just so happens to be his eyes (and really powerful). Anyone Cyclops can beat, there's a reasonable chance The Punisher can beat as well.

ERRRRRRG !!!! one thing that makes me irrated is flawed logic. I am a fan of sports and its the best evidence. Some teams can defeat the other other elite teams with ease and lose really bad to some of the worst stink bomb teams ever the next match. so to use the A beats B and B beats C so A HAS to beat C logic goes out the window. Thats why wolvie is one of my fav characters ever written, one day he could beat galactus but the next day lose to the Yancy Street gang. Hey hapens in sports and in life.

i have been away from FF comics the last 4 so years and i read that Reed and Doom both have studied and have scarlet witch/Dr Strange level magic? I always loved FF comics but its true their strength is in prep, they always lost the first battle but came back and schooled who was fighting them. I think that would make an interesting crossover, FF4 vs x villians and Xmen vs FF4 villians. Xmen vs Doom would be cool.

Originally posted by demigawd
I think reasonable arguments can be made for either, but I'd have to lean towards Torch for that fight. Cyclops is, in the final analysis, a guy with a gun. The gun just so happens to be his eyes (and really powerful). Anyone Cyclops can beat, there's a reasonable chance The Punisher can beat as well.

Cyclop's powers r utterly useless against Torch...his strategic skills would be his only hope.

Everyone's powers are utterly useless on the FF according to you. A page ago you basically said that Onslaught is nothing to the FF.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Are we still trying to assert that Invisible Woman or Human Torch can act faster than telepathy?

And why in the hell would Reed have a weapon that would somehow hurt Shadowcat in a non-prep fight?


Shadowcat makes Emma Frost intangible. Emma Frost uses Human Torch, Thing and Reed Richards to kill Invisible Woman and then shuts off the remaining FF's minds.

It's Reed ****ing Richards.

The man spends his days making crap to do this kind of thing.

Originally posted by MuffinmanMike
It's Reed ****ing Richards.

The man spends his days making crap to do this kind of thing. This is no prep. Whether or not it's Reed ****ing Richards is irrelevant.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Everyone's powers are utterly useless on the FF according to you. A page ago you basically said that Onslaught is nothing to the FF.
In another thread he brought up that torch could absorb the energy from a guy with the same powers as cyclops, except it shot out of his hands, passively. It just makes him hotter.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
This is no prep. Whether or not it's Reed ****ing Richards is irrelevant.

I'm just sayin he has it

Swanky - Cyclops blasts produce no heat and are totally concussive.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
In another thread he brought up that torch could absorb the energy from a guy with the same powers as cyclops, except it shot out of his hands, passively. It just makes him hotter. Cyclops beams are portrayed as pure heatless concussive force - in it's essence it's an "eye-punch". It's not an energy blast. You're saying Torch can absorb energies like heat, however although his durability to physical forces is higher than a normal human's he isn't the physically invulnerable.