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After reading this article...

http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9502/sommers.html

I found myself extremely angry... this woman claiming that Rape was part and parcel of males being sexually aggressive... to be branded in such a way didnt exactly feel great...

I want to know what other guys on KMC think of all this (and i do not want it to turn into some debate on whose fault rape is or anything like that)...

ladies are welcome to post too of course...

i DONT agree with this chick at all

Alot of information to digest here.. but the long & short of it is that the numbers dont f*cking matter..
Add to the mix that I am a rape victim myself and the fact that I do personally know of at least one instance where someone close to me was falsely accused of rape.. so I have had a bit of experience with all aspects of this...
Basically numbers dont mean jack shit... All these 'intellectuals' are doing nothing more than trying to get publicity either by doing their own 'research' or trying to knock the piss out of the other guys numbers.. Bottom line is you can 'study the numbers' and argue over the idiotic things like ' differentiating between a broom handle and a finger' til the cows come home .. Fact is RAPE HAPPENS.. whether its one in a million or 582,000 in a million.. it happens so lets just get past the bullshit & deal with the actual issue itself, not whose numbers are the best and why or why not..
The only reason that I have ever found for statistics to be useful is if you are trying to set priorities.. like illness for example.. x number of people die from cancer, x number from bee stings.. THAT can be useful just too see where money should be spent for the greater good.. but rape is rape is rape.. there are no degrees.. if you have been violated you have been violated so the numbers are useless.. what needs to be addressed is what can be done to help decrease rape across the board, speaking for society as a whole.. to me this includes both the attackers reasons for purpotrating the crime and in cases of date rape.. deal with the issue of low self esteem in girls & women so that they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that THEY call the shots (sorry guys but we have to, its just to risky not to - i know there are girls are there that tease and do the whole regret it the next day thing but better to leave a guy with a hard on than to have a rape victim on your hands)
I dont feel betrayed by this report as a woman or as a rape victim, I feel disgusted that the people who are supposed to be the experts in areas of importance such as this cant get past being publicity whores and petty bickering to address the actual issue.

I'm sorry, Bilb, but I think it is very hasty to dismiss numbers as an irrelevant issue. Any programme that tries to deal with the problem needs accurate data to work omn. As the article explains, inaccurate data simply causes resources to go to the wrong place, and so the risk to vulnerable people is not reduced when it could be, and that is wrong by any definition.

I am afraid it is very likely that whatever the scale of rape in any western society, the issue cannot begin to be properly addressed until its scale is properly known.

Right now the problem isn't even properly defined yet. You can't know it until it is defined, and that is why seemingly petty issues about broom handles are actually quite important.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I'm sorry, Bilb, but I think it is very hasty to dismiss numbers as an irrelevant issue. Any programme that tries to deal with the problem needs accurate data to work omn. As the article explains, inaccurate data simply causes resources to go to the wrong place, and so the risk to vulnerable people is not reduced when it could be, and that is wrong by any definition.

I am afraid it is very likely that whatever the scale of rape in any western society, the issue cannot begin to be properly addressed until its scale is properly known.

Right now the problem isn't even properly defined yet. You can't know it until it is defined, and that is why seemingly petty issues about broom handles are actually quite important.

did you even read what i wrote?



erm.. hello?

and properly defined? do i REALLY have to explain what RAPE is?

Did YOU read the article?

Because yes, you do. Definition is one of the hugest problems.

I think you should read it again more carefully.

ok i'll remeber that next time i'm talking to my therapist about th enight I ACTUALLY WAS RAPED thanks

Originally posted by bilb
ok i'll remeber that next time i'm talking to my therapist about th enight I ACTUALLY WAS RAPED thanks

But this is actually aboot the article...not rape itself......

Sorry, but what does that have to do with what I said?

I'm very sorry for that but that does not change that outlined fact- that the very differing definitions of what rape actually is, is one of the largest problems in this area.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry, but what does that have to do with what I said?

I'm very sorry for that but that does not change that outlined fact- that the very differing definitions of what rape actually is, is one of the largest problems in this area.

hmm must be nice to be able to divorce oneself from the emotional aspects of the crime.. talk to me after its been done to you mmm kay?

That is simply emotional nonsense. That kind of statement does not alter the facts one whit.

Like I say, try reading the article again carefully and you will seewhere the problem exists. Simply ranting at me won't help you at all. I've done you no wrong, I am simply referring you to the reported problem.

Originally posted by bilb
hmm must be nice to be able to divorce oneself from the emotional aspects of the crime.. talk to me after its been done to you mmm kay?

But this Thread really is not aboot the Emotional Aspect of Rape ....

I didn't know that, Bilb...

I'll admit I haven't read the article yet. I will - just don't have time right now. But imo, the key to addressing issues such as rape isn't just to look at male sexual behaviours and say it's the result of an intrinsic male aggression. You have to look at behaviours and attitudes fostered by society as a whole. In some socially conservative societies and communities, archaic views of gender roles can produce female attitudes of low self-worth and improper male attitudes and lack of respect towards women.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That is simply emotional nonsense. That kind of statement does not alter the facts one whit.


yeah it felt like nonsense at the time.. still does thanks



I already said her logic, methods, rationale & conclusions were screwed up.. what more do you want?

Originally posted by Imaginary
I didn't know that, Bilb...

well its not exactly something one advertises

but yes its true

Originally posted by bilb
yeah it felt like nonsense at the time.. still does thanks



I already said her logic, methods, rationale & conclusions were screwed up.. what more do you want?

Well but you are not talking aboot the Issue pr adressed but aboot Rape in General...which is a whole different topic

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I'll admit I haven't read the article yet. I will - just don't have time right now. But imo, the key to addressing issues such as rape isn't just to look at male sexual behaviours and say it's the result of an intrinsic male aggression. You have to look at behaviours and attitudes fostered by society as a whole. In some socially conservative societies and communities, archaic views of gender roles can produce female attitudes of low self-worth and improper male attitudes and lack of respect towards women.

yup and I fail to see how statistics are gonna help with that

See, again, Bilb, that's just you throwing an emotional insult at me that is without any value or relevance.

The fact is this. Due to vastly differing definitions of what rape is, from fingers to broomhandles and so forth, the possible accuracy of figures is being vastly distorted and is one of the root cuses of the misallocation of resources outlined above.

You say these issues are unimportant- that is because you are failing to spot the link between the definition of rape, and getting help to the right places. But the link is there, and I think the article outlines that rather well. So these issues ARE important if the right people are to get the help they need.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well but you are not talking aboot the Issue pr adressed but aboot Rape in General...which is a whole different topic Have you read the article? It's really long.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well but you are not talking aboot the Issue pr adressed but aboot Rape in General...which is a whole different topic

ok my prediction right now.. girls on one side, boys on the other..

fact is girls (the MAJORITY of rape victims) cant & shouldnt have to seperate the physical act from the emotional ramifications.. they are a package deal unfortunately

Bilb, no-one is even talking about seperating that other than you. You are making up in your head what the argument is.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Have you read the article? It's really long.

Hell yes.....I didn't...I am still in the second paragraph deciding if I want to go on....but I read PRs post...and he is not adressing a Topic called "Rape" but one "Male beings being discriminated against because some of them Raped Women"

Originally posted by Ushgarak
See, again, Bilb, that's just you throwing an emotional insult at me that is without any value or relevance.

The fact is this. Due to vastly differing definitions of what rape is, from fingers to broomhandles and so forth, the possible accuracy of figures is being vastly distorted and is one of the root cuses of the misallocation of resources outlined above.

You say these issues are unimportant- that is because you are failing to spot the link between the definition of rape, and getting help to the right places. But the link is there, and I think the article outlines that rather well. So these issues ARE important if the right people are to get the help they need.

erm when did i personally insult you?

rape = unwanted penetration.. can we agree on THAT? pretty cut & dry i think

Originally posted by bilb
ok my prediction right now.. girls on one side, boys on the other..

fact is girls (the MAJORITY of rape victims) cant & shouldnt have to seperate the physical act from the emotional ramifications.. they are a package deal unfortunately No really, I don't want you tro seperate that at all..and I am sure it is horrible...and I have no clue how it could feel ....and probably never will (except I will be imprisoned in a Texas Jail...where ol' Bubba is waiting for me) ...but you have to un derstand it'S aboot a whole different aspect...not the women that are raped (horrible) but men that get generalized (not as horrible but bad too)

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Bilb, no-one is even talking about seperating that other than you. You are making up in your head what the argument is.

thank you for that assessment

Originally posted by Bardock42
No really, I don't want you tro seperate that at all..and I am sure it is horrible...and I have no clue how it could feel ....and probably never will (except I will be imprisoned in a Texas Jail...where ol' Bubba is waiting for me) ...but you have to un derstand it'S aboot a whole different aspect...not the women that are raped (horrible) but men that get generalized (not as horrible but bad too)

i agree .. generalizations about men being rapists ARE horrible.. but that doesnt change th efact that it DOES happen.. all too often i'm afraid

You insulted me when you were making out that my position was one of being callous about the plight of such women.

And I guess I would probably agree with you there, Bilb- but look at the article again. The definition problem there is 'unwanted'. Some definitions are taking it as broadly as any sexual experience that a woman later feels bad about, regardless of how she felt at the time, or any sexual experience had whilst drunk regardless of whether anyone took advantage of that or not.

If these are classified as rapes automatically, you can see how the figures get grossly distorted.

Also, if penetration is taken literally, to be including fingers, you then have a problem of what would be called rape with a woman is 'only' sexual assault with a man, because if a guy is so fondled unwantedly then it is rarely up the backside, and so is never penetrative- but the crime is identical.

Originally posted by bilb
i agree .. generalizations about men being rapists ARE horrible.. but that doesnt change th efact that it DOES happen.. all too often i'm afraid

Yes I agree..and I would gladly participate in a Thread that has that as a topic (if it doesn't involve a *****-ass-long article like this one, of course)....but pr won't be happy with the responses to this one so far I believe....(my fault to , no doubt aboot that)

Originally posted by Ushgarak
You insulted me when you were making out that my position was one of being callous about the plight of such women.

And I guess I would probably agree with you there, Bilb- but look at the article again. The definition problem there is 'unwanted'. Some definitions are taking it as broadly as any sexual experience that a woman later feels bad about, regardless of how she felt at the time, or any sexual experience had whilst drunk regardless of whether anyone took advantage of that or not.

If these are classified as rapes automatically, you can see how the figures get grossly distorted.

Also, if penetration is taking literally, to be including fingers, you then have a problem of what would be called rape with a woman is 'only' sexual assault with a man, because if a guy is so fondled unwantedly then it is rarely up the backside, and so is never penetrative- but the crime is identical. If a sexual assault on a man involves penetration of some form is that not a rape?

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
If a sexual assault on a man involves penetration of some form is that not a rape?

That'S what he is saying...that is too...but not the only......

My point is about fingering. Finger a man, finger a woman- with a woman, that is almost certainly penetrative, with a man, almost certainly not.

Identical crime, but only the woman would have that classed as rape if we use a literal definition of 'rape = penetration'.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
You insulted me when you were making out that my position was one of being callous about the plight of such women.

And I guess I would probably agree with you there, Bilb- but look at the article again. The definition problem there is 'unwanted'. Some definitions are taking it as broadly as any sexual experience that a woman later feels bad about, regardless of how she felt at the time, or any sexual experience had whilst drunk regardless of whether anyone took advantage of that or not.

If these are classified as rapes automatically, you can see how the figures get grossly distorted.

Also, if penetration is taken literally, to be including fingers, you then have a problem of what would be called rape with a woman is 'only' sexual assault with a man, because if a guy is so fondled unwantedly then it is rarely up the backside, and so is never penetrative- but the crime is identical.

well you DO seem callous about it.. sorrry but that sth eway you came across & i called you on it..

and yes i totally agree this chicks questions were loaded & skewed to get higher numbers as to who was & was not raped.. she worded the questions badly then exploited her findings..

ok then we expand teh definition to include unwanted penetration and / or touching..

but no matter how flowery you make the definition RAPE IS RAPE.. THATS my point

Originally posted by Ushgarak
My point is about fingering. Finger a man, finger a woman- with a woman, that is almost certainly penetrative, with a man, almost certainly not.

Identical crime, but only the woman would have that classed as rape if we use a literal definition of 'rape = penetration'. How exactly do you finger a man in the manner that may occur to a woman that would make the crime identical but without penetration?

Err, because you finger the 'front end', yeah?

Fingering a man's genitals is equal as a crime as fingering a woman's. But only a man's backside can be penetrated, so by that definition his experience is not rape.

And I was not being callous at all, Bilb- it was only your way of seeing things that made it seem like that.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Err, because you finger the 'front end', yeah?

Fingering a man's genitals is equal as a crime as fingering a woman's. But only a man's backside can be penetrated, so by that definition his experience is not rape.

And I was not being callous at all, Bilb- it was only your way of seeing things that made it seem like that.

yet again, thank you for telling me how I feel

Darw I say that that is how you came across and I called you on it?

Whoa... my threads never get this kind of response...

firstly, i dont think anyone is trying to cheapen bilb's experience at all... nobody is arguing with you kimmy... hug

except ush...

yes men rape women, but the problem i have is how its been generalised by this nazi woman into saying that its part and parcel of who men are biologically...

No, I am certainly not cheapening Bilb's experience.

And not that it compares, I am sure, but I have been sexually assaulted myself.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, I am certainly not cheapening Bilb's experience.

And not that it compares, I am sure, but I have been sexually assaulted myself.

Another good point... women arent the only ones affected...

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Darw I say that that is how you came across and I called you on it?

if it makes you feel better sure go ahead

and Ok paul.. we'll change tactics a bit here:

if rape werent prevalant there would be no reason for the perception of men as potential attackers .. right?

However is "fingering" - which I take it you mean fondling - of a man's genitalia comparable, considering I'm assuming an unwanted penetration of a woman (although I am not a woman so wouldn't know) by fingers would cause physical pain.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, I am certainly not cheapening Bilb's experience.

And not that it compares, I am sure, but I have been sexually assaulted myself.

its not a mtter of comparison.. being violated is being violated.. thats my point.. is that stats dont matter when sucj a horrible thing is happening

pain & grief over similar experiences are not a competition

Originally posted by bilb
if it makes you feel better sure go ahead

and Ok paul.. we'll change tactics a bit here:

if rape werent prevalant there would be no reason for the perception of men as potential attackers .. right?

Men go around south america growing huge fields of marijuana and around africa performing ethnic cleansing...

doesnt mean every man does it...

Originally posted by pr1983
Men go around south america growing huge fields of marijuana and around africa performing ethnic cleansing...

doesnt mean every man does it...


very true,, but a girl SHOULD protect herself shouldnt she?

Err, I think the capacity for pain is equal, X.

And whilst I see what you are saying, Bilb, the fact is that sexual assault can still be classified by severity. Some forms are worse than others, and punishment must fit the scale of it.

Originally posted by pr1983
Men go around south america growing huge fields of marijuana and around africa performing ethnic cleansing...

doesnt mean every man does it...

Yes

And I beleive it's an even bigger problem for men to tell they were raped than for woman......

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Err, I think the capacity for pain is equal, X.

And whilst I see what you are saying, Bilb, the fact is that sexual assault can still be classified by severity. Some forms are worse than others, and punishment must fit the scale of it.

yes it CAN be.. i am just not so sure it SHOULD be is my point

and by the by.. very sorry for what happened to you

Originally posted by bilb
very true,, but a girl SHOULD protect herself shouldnt she?

of course, but she should also have the sense not to put herself in a potentially dangerous position... but again we're moving away from the topic...

edit: sorry double post...

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes

And I beleive it's an even bigger problem for men to tell they were raped than for woman......

Definately...

Originally posted by Bardock42
Yes

And I beleive it's an even bigger problem for men to tell they were raped than for woman......

and THAT needs to be addressed as well.. cause as I have said over & over.. violaion is violation no matter what

Originally posted by pr1983
of course, but she should also have the sense not to put herself in a potentially dangerous position... but again we're moving away from the topic... pr could you clarify as to what the topic officially was. Still reading the article....

That's very kind.

But I think perhaps it should; I think a guy who kindnaps a girl and ties her up and rapes her in every way conceivable, forcibly, and with damage, should be seen as doing a worse thing than a drunk guy who was too dumb to think a girl meant no when he fondled her for a few minutes.

Not that I am saying what drunk guy did wasn't wrong, but it is a palpably different scale to the first.

Originally posted by bilb
and THAT needs to be addressed as well.. cause as I have said over & over.. violaion is violation no matter what

true...

now please...

TOPIC...

blowup

Originally posted by pr1983
of course, but she should also have the sense not to put herself in a potentially dangerous position... but again we're moving away from the topic...

maybe its a chick thing but i just dont see how you can seperate the act & the emotions

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
pr could you clarify as to what the topic officially was. Still reading the article....

The topic is...

How does it feel being a man and being told that being able to commit rape is a natural part of our biology...

Originally posted by bilb
maybe its a chick thing but i just dont see how you can seperate the act & the emotions

I dont see how i said otherwise...

Originally posted by pr1983
The topic is...

How does it feel being a man and being told that being able to commit rape is a natural part of our biology... As a man and a biologist I say that's nonsense.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That's very kind.

But I think perhaps it should; I think a guy who kindnaps a girl and ties her up and rapes her in every way conceivable, forcibly, and with damage, should be seen as doing a worse thing than a drunk guy who was too dumb to think a girl meant no when he fondled her for a few minutes.

Not that I am saying what drunk guy did wasn't wrong, but it is a palpably differenr scale to the first.

thats true when you come to the punishment phase of the case, but when talking about the issue in general a crime is a crime

and i know what you men paul.. but not all women see all men as rapists.. its just that you have to be careful.. and yes th eones who arent are just being dumb.. but that doesnt mean they deserve to be raped

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
As a man and a biologist I say it's nonsense.

Originally posted by pr1983
The topic is...

How does it feel being a man and being told that being able to commit rape is a natural part of our biology...



I dont see how i said otherwise...
Exactly...that'S what I am saying all along...but no one listens to me....yeah right...just ignore the German Kid....you are all potential countrycists cry

Originally posted by bilb
thats true when you come to the punishment phase of the case, but when talking about the issue in general a crime is a crime

and i know what you men paul.. but not all women see all men as rapists.. its just that you have to be careful.. and yes th eones who arent are just being dumb.. but that doesnt mean they deserve to be raped

But thats what im saying... not all women SHOULD see all men as rapists... they should just have a bit of common sense... if a girl spends a night getting twenty drinks off a guy and then agrees to go home with him, what does she honestly think he's expecting?

Originally posted by pr1983
The topic is...

How does it feel being a man and being told that being able to commit rape is a natural part of our biology...



ok then.. i cant really speak to that as i am not a man.. BUT there is a biological basis in it.. cavemen (for lack of a better word) did what they had to in order to both get release and procreate.. no i dont think maist men are like that today but you cant deny that it WAS there at one point

Originally posted by bilb
ok then.. i cant really speak to that as i am not a man.. BUT there is a biological basis in it.. cavemen (for lack of a better word) did what they had to in order to both get release and procreate.. no i dont think maist men are like that today but you cant deny that it WAS there at one point

Evolution... cavemen are very different from men today... so i disagree...

Originally posted by pr1983
But thats what im saying... not all women SHOULD see all men as rapists... they should just have a bit of common sense... if a girl spends a night getting twenty drinks off a guy and then agrees to go home with him, what does she honestly think he's expecting?

agreed she is being a tease & a dumb twit.. BUT she still reverves the right to stop th eact at ANY given point

Originally posted by pr1983
But thats what im saying... not all women SHOULD see all men as rapists... they should just have a bit of common sense... if a girl spends a night getting twenty drinks off a guy and then agrees to go home with him, what does she honestly think he's expecting? Ah but then low self-worth can make some women believe that they aren't raped when by external definition one would consider it rape. In the same way that victims of molestation tend to blame themselves when they aren't to blame. It's difficult to tackle an issue such as rape considering the diversity of individual cases.

Originally posted by bilb
agreed she is being a tease & a dumb twit.. BUT she still reverves the right to stop th eact at ANY given point

Yet that also gives her the right to treat a man like shit?

Originally posted by bilb
ok then.. i cant really speak to that as i am not a man.. BUT there is a biological basis in it.. cavemen (for lack of a better word) did what they had to in order to both get release and procreate.. no i dont think maist men are like that today but you cant deny that it WAS there at one point

But why only Caveman....weren't Cavewoman made to be the same way...it'S like saying it's only the mans duty to procreate....there must be some sort of fault there....

Originally posted by pr1983
Evolution... cavemen are very different from men today... so i disagree...

i just said most men arent like that.. i was just saying its there is all

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Ah but then low self-worth can make some women believe that they aren't raped when by external definition one would consider it rape. In the same way that victims of molestation tend to blame themselves when they aren't to blame. It's difficult to tackle an issue such as rape considering the diversity of individual cases.

Yeah, i know what u mean... society sucks...

Originally posted by bilb
i just said most men arent like that.. i was just saying its there is all

I dont agree...

Originally posted by pr1983
Yet that also gives her the right to treat a man like shit?

of course not.. but its the lesser of two evils.. he gets treated bad emotionally or she gets violated.. i happen to think whatever can be done to prevent th elatter is preferable

Originally posted by bilb
of course not.. but its the lesser of two evils.. he gets treated bad emotionally or she gets violated.. i happen to think whatever can be done to prevent th elatter is preferable

So then women need to stop being so naive...

PR, how do you otherwise address the point that the overwhelming majority of rapists are men?

Originally posted by pr1983
So then women need to stop being so naive...

agreed

Originally posted by Ushgarak
PR, how do you otherwise address the point that the overwhelming majority of rapists are men?

Well you could for once say that Men are usually physically stronger...so that might be something.
Then what aboot the upbringing....which is quite diofferent from males to females....

There is undeniable evidence that androgens are linked to aggression in humans - not just males. However translating that into saying all males are intrinsically agressive and violent, and further translating that into saying all men are capable and willing to perform acts of sexual violence is highly specious. God this is a long article...

Originally posted by pr1983
The topic is...

How does it feel being a man and being told that being able to commit rape is a natural part of our biology...





To slightly address an 'off-topic' point, re: the whole rape/penetration issue.

Legally, only a man can commit rape. The definition is penile penetration of the anus, vagina, and, as has been recently added, mouth.

Therefore in a literal sense, it is a natural part of our biology.

However, I imagine the question relates to an innate desire or drive to commit rape, which is lurking underneath whatever surfaces.

To be quite honest, this is probably true. That's not to say, though, that we cannot have 100% control over it at all times.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
PR, how do you otherwise address the point that the overwhelming majority of rapists are men?



where do i start...

why are most murders men? why are so many priests child molesters?

Maybe its an emotional instability, maybe a psychological problem, maybe a case of being frustrated to breaking point...

But i dont think theres a 'rape' gene inherently contained within every man...

ok for the record:

this chick & her 'study' were wrong imo

i personally DONT think all males are rapists, but i can understand why some woen WOULD feel that way be it right or wrong

there is a biological reason, no matter how dormant that CAN (not that it is) be awloen in men

girls SHOULD take mnore reposnsibility for their action but they still retain the right to say NO at ANY point

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
To be quite honest, this is probably true. That's not to say, though, that we cannot have 100% control over it at all times.

So say, for instance, a healthy sex life would dull this desire?

As I just posted, it's a quirk of the legal system that all rapists are actually men.

So legally, penetration by digits or object isn't rape?

Originally posted by pr1983
So say, for instance, a healthy sex life would dull this desire?

I suppose it would, but it's one of those things that has no practical input on most people's lives.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So legally, penetration by digits or object isn't rape?

No, it's a separate offence.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
I suppose it would, but it's one of those things that has no practical input on most people's lives.

K, i get what you mean...

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
No, it's a separate offence. Hmm. I find that somewhat odd. Here (New Zealand) I recall forcible violation with objects is considered rape under the legal framework.

Originally posted by pr1983
K, i get what you mean...

Just noticed that Cyclops in your avatar looks a lot like Elijah Wood as Kevin in Sin City.

I was thinking about your caveman point. It's hard to imagine that societal frameworks can do anything other than suffocate natural (in the literal sense) drives.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Hmm. I find that somewhat odd. Here (New Zealand) I recall forcible violation with objects is considered rape under the legal framework.

In the UK, the sexual offences are a mess. There seems to be some desperate drive to keep rape a pure male crime.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Just noticed that Cyclops in your avatar looks a lot like Elijah Wood as Kevin in Sin City.

I was thinking about your caveman point. It's hard to imagine that societal frameworks can do anything other than suffocate natural (in the literal sense) drives.

Kevin? Aw hell...

Possibly... but i honestly don't believe society had as big a hand as evolution....

There are societal frameworks that are and aren't conducive to rape.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The key to addressing issues such as rape isn't just to look at male sexual behaviours and say it's the result of an intrinsic male aggression. You have to look at behaviours and attitudes fostered by society as a whole. In some socially conservative societies and communities, archaic views of gender roles can produce female attitudes of low self-worth and self respect and improper male attitudes and lack of respect towards women. In a society where there is mutual and equal respect between men and women I very much doubt rape would be as prevalent.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
.
In a society where there is mutual and equal respect between men and women I very much doubt rape would be as prevalent.

amen

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
There are societal frameworks that are and aren't conducive to rape.


That's true. The ones that aren't, though, do not eradicate natural urges was my point.

Pr1983- you think those urges have 'evolved' out somehow?

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
That's true. The ones that aren't, though, do not eradicate natural urges was my point.

Pr1983- you think those urges have 'evolved' out somehow? If by eradicate you mean completely or partially remove the underlying basis - you must first define the underlying basis. If by eradicate you mean diminish completely or partially the prevalence of the act - then I don't see how good societal frameworks don't "eradicate natural urges."

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
If by eradicate you mean completely or partially remove the underlying basis - you must first define the underlying basis. If by eradicate you mean diminish completely or partially the prevalence of the act - then I don't see how good societal frameworks don't "eradicate natural urges."

phew!! right over my head there

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
If by eradicate you mean completely or partially remove the underlying basis - you must first define the underlying basis. If by eradicate you mean diminish completely or partially the prevalence of the act - then I don't see how good societal frameworks don't "eradicate natural urges."

with chemical neutering

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
I suppose it would, but it's one of those things that has no practical input on most people's lives.

Its called gross indecency in the uk

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
That's true. The ones that aren't, though, do not eradicate natural urges was my point.

Pr1983- you think those urges have 'evolved' out somehow?

To a point, yes... there are so many other thought processes that have come with evolution that i believe men are not as easily influenced by such urges...

I dont know if that makes any sense...

Sort of... men's brains have moulded and changed such urges until they are very different to what they once were...

Damn Keyboard...

I live about 45 mins. from Flint in Michigan which for a while was considered the rape capital of the US......I always lock my doors when going through that city...But at least Detroit isn't the murder capital anymore....I think it's number 3 or 5.....Which is one of the reasons I moved to the country.....

Originally posted by pr1983
To a point, yes... there are so many other thought processes that have come with evolution that i believe men are not as easily influenced by such urges...

I dont know if that makes any sense...

Sort of... men's brains have moulded and changed such urges until they are very different to what they once were...

Damn Keyboard...

This is more or less what I was hinting towards.

X-

'If by eradicate you mean completely or partially remove the underlying basis - you must first define the underlying basis. If by eradicate you mean diminish completely or partially the prevalence of the act - then I don't see how good societal frameworks don't "eradicate natural urges.'

What I mean is more like the former. It's slightly complicated to fully outline my position on it, but I am thinking about the way in which feelings and laws interact. It's probably going to derail the thread, so nevermind. Maybe if another thread comes up.


Returning to Pr1983- just to throw something out there: could evolution be coloured by our societal framework?

Okay I didn't read through pages 2-4 but I'll just jump in here real quick.

1. Bilb I am very sorry about what happened to you.
2. I think more sexual awareness would help stop rape. Either through sex ed or from parents teaching their children respect for others at a young age and encouraging that throughout their entire life.

Why isn't it "natural"? It happens in the natural world between animals everyday.

It's just another way to spread your sperm to as many different eggs as you can before you die.
Mother nature doesn't give a shit if it makes you have night terrors.

I thought everyone agreed it was natural.

Well, great.

Rapes all around.

umm SEX is natural.. RAPE is not

its a mtter of control not 'spreading one's seed'

You're putting morals on evolution?

long pig... evolution is a theory.

Also. Animals don't have free will or love. They have instinct. Humans on the other hand do and can make choices based on their experiences and wants in life to love someone or not; or to harm someone or not.

Says who? Maybe animals are just assholes who like to kill each other and rape bitches while flinging dung. No one knows for sure.


A theory that just so happens to be 100% true.

We are animals, just bald monkeys with big brains and natural urges, and a few of those natural urges evolved for some as violence/rape/murder.

Doesn't make it ok, it doesn't make it right, it just makes it the truth.

Originally posted by long pig
Says who? Maybe animals are just assholes who like to kill each other and rape bitches while flinging dung. No one knows for sure.


A theory that just so happens to be 100% true.

We are animals, just bald monkeys with big brains and natural urges, and a few of those natural urges evolved for some as violence/rape/murder.

Doesn't make it ok, it doesn't make it right, it just makes it the truth.

No, I'm pretty sure that's instinct.


Evolution is a theory. And are you trying to justify murder?

Originally posted by Echuu


Also. Animals don't have free will or love. They have instinct. Humans on the other hand do and can make choices based on their experiences and wants in life to love someone or not; or to harm someone or not.

spot on

Murder is justifiable.

Are you trying to prove Creationism?

Originally posted by long pig
Murder is justifiable.

Are you trying to prove Creationism?

Murder is justifiable in certain situations. You seem to be trying to justify all murder in your other post.

Did I say I was trying to prove creationism?

Not really, no.
I just implied it, the same way you implied Creationism.

Sex is natural. Most definitely. Rape is natural? Well that depends on whether you believe a concept of "consent" exists amongst other animals. Even if one is to argue that rape is a result of primitive instinct - the desire for sex - it doesn't really mitigate the act of rape as higher brain functions due to biological evolution and human cultural evolution have made human life anything but natural.

Originally posted by bilb
umm SEX is natural.. RAPE is not

its a mtter of control not 'spreading one's seed'


well, rape occurs in nature among some primates and higher mammals but it is usually committed against subordinate males as a rite of subordination. Rape among humans is deviant in nearly every society except for several historical ones. In any case, our cultural revolution has gone to the point where rape IS an unnatural crime against humanity and should be treated as such.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
well, rape occurs in nature among some primates and higher mammals but it is usually committed against subordinate males as a rite of subordination. Rape among humans is deviant in nearly every society except for several historical ones. In any case, our cultural revolution has gone to the point where rape IS an unnatural crime against humanity and should be treated as such.


We have evolved....

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Sex is natural. Most definitely. Rape is natural? Well that depends on whether you believe a concept of "consent" exists amongst other animals. Even if one is to argue that rape is a result of primitive instinct - the desire for sex - it doesn't really mitigate the act of rape as higher brain functions due to biological evolution and human cultural evolution have made human life anything but natural.

EXCELLENT post!!

Originally posted by long pig
Not really, no.
I just implied it, the same way you implied Creationism.

Okay. This kinda threw me off.

"We are animals, just bald monkeys with big brains and natural urges, and a few of those natural urges evolved for some as violence/rape/murder."

Anger and lust may be natural urges but the lashing out in murder, violence, or rape can be controled.

I never implied creationism. I said evolution is a theory.
I believe in creationism but that doesn't change the fact that both evolution and creationism are theories of how the world came into existence.

not to jump on any bandwagons but i think the under lying theme that bilb was trying to bring across is that stats dont mean anyhting to the person the crime was perpetrated against. meaning, thats like saying to a girl who was raped, "11 girls were raped this year, but last year it was 15.......sooooooooo...at least the number is lower, right?" *shrugs shoulders*

Originally posted by Echuu
Okay. This kinda threw me off.

"We are animals, just bald monkeys with big brains and natural urges, and a few of those natural urges evolved for some as violence/rape/murder."

Anger and lust may be natural urges but the lashing out in murder, violence, or rape can be controled.



That's the point: they can be 'controlled'. This implies their presence.

That's not to say we are naturally rapists, just that society has evolved to a different point. We are now more aware of, and place a higher value on, the feelings of others- both legally and morally.

you think we'd even be talking about this if we were like Israel and taught the majority of it's public school students Krav Magah?

Originally posted by Darth Jello
you think we'd even be talking about this if we were like Israel and taught the majority of it's public school students Krav Magah?

LOL...yes, we would. Rape would just take longer, and we'd be selling tickets to it.

really? cause i would think that a guy having his eye plucked out would be a real deterrent.
I mean, don't get me wrong, i'm not generally a violent person, but i see absolutely no problem with using sickening degrees of violence against rapists.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
really? cause i would think that a guy having his eye plucked out would be a real deterrent.
I mean, don't get me wrong, i'm not generally a violent person, but i see absolutely no problem with using sickening degrees of violence against rapists.

Not my point...

My point is, that in the US...if everyone was trained in some form of martial arts...then rape would continue....only, the rapist could win, and have his way with her, despite her training. So, that's why I say it would just take longer.


It was all a joke.

But, in reality, rape still happens in Israel. I don't know the statistics, but the population is much smaller.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
really? cause i would think that a guy having his eye plucked out would be a real deterrent.
I mean, don't get me wrong, i'm not generally a violent person, but i see absolutely no problem with using sickening degrees of violence against rapists.

Yeah but wouldn't the Rapist know the Martial Art too?

i um, disagree....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_maga

summary-I'd place Krav maga up there with Muay Boran/Muay Thai, and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu in terms of real world relevance and lethality.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
i um, disagree....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_maga

summary-I'd place Krav maga up there with Muay Boran/Muay Thai, and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu in terms of real world relevance and lethality.

But if all get taught it...the agressor will still be stronger and in the end probably win....

see, as far as i know, all don't get taught it, i believe they administer psychological tests before they actually teach it to students and in any case, decide whether to teach the most lethal techniques to each student on an individual basis.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
see, as far as i know, all don't get taught it, i believe they administer psychological tests before they actually teach it to students and in any case, decide whether to teach the most lethal techniques to each student on an individual basis.


That's right. It is taught mostly to police and military officials.

Originally posted by Darth Jello
see, as far as i know, all don't get taught it, i believe they administer psychological tests before they actually teach it to students and in any case, decide whether to teach the most lethal techniques to each student on an individual basis.

Maybe you should start a thread about this, sounds interesting.

i don't really think i should do that cause i have only a basic knowledge of the theory and a few techniques. the only things i've really done are tai kwon do, Muay Thai/Muay Boran, and a few european and japanese styles of swordfighting

Originally posted by Darth Jello
I mean, don't get me wrong, i'm not generally a violent person, but i see absolutely no problem with using sickening degrees of violence against rapists.

And if they did do that rape would hardly ever occur.

Originally posted by manjaro
not to jump on any bandwagons but i think the under lying theme that bilb was trying to bring across is that stats dont mean anyhting to the person the crime was perpetrated against. meaning, thats like saying to a girl who was raped, "11 girls were raped this year, but last year it was 15.......sooooooooo...at least the number is lower, right?" *shrugs shoulders*

thats EXACTLY what i meant!! THANK YOU!!

Originally posted by Darth Jello
i don't really think i should do that cause i have only a basic knowledge of the theory and a few techniques. the only things i've really done are tai kwon do, Muay Thai/Muay Boran, and a few european and japanese styles of swordfighting

I was thinking different styles and such. Which are more effective.