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TPM novel says Qui-Gon's saber skills rival Mace's. TPM Dooku beat Mace (and this is a weaker version of Dooku than AOTC-ROTS Tyranus). Still, Mace is probably the strongest Jedi in the Order at the time of TPM (besides Yoda and Dooku).

On the other hand Anakin (ROTS) is second only to Mace and Yoda as far as Jedi go, managed to defeat Dooku (still a big acclompishment even if Dooku wasn't trying), defeated Cin with one hand (or se we think) and is very strong.


I'd say Anakin, barely. Mace is smarter, Anakin has better saber skills and they are probably tied in pure Force skills. So it'd be close but I'd say saber skills count more than intelligence in a duel.

i think TPM Mace is just like ROTS obi-wan

If only better. Maces takes it easily.

I'll say Anakin, he has clone war experience while Mace doesn't.

War experience? So.....

You think war made Mace a more powerful fighter?

definately, the experience and the studying of fighting.

Mace was powerful even before the war. In any case, ROTS Anakin would be owned.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Mace was powerful even before the war. In any case, ROTS Anakin would be owned.

i disagree, but doesn't it make sense that someone would be better at fighting after they have experienced a war.

It doesn't make sense that lightsaber combat saber-to-saber wise would improve neccessarily with war with droids, either.

Point being, ROTS Anakin lost decisively to ROTS Obi-Wan. Mace in his entire career as a jedi has only ever lost to Yoda and Dooku saber-to-saber. ROTS Anakin could probably NOT beat Yoda or Dooku, even as of TPM, period. So why would he beat Windu?

It would be a slightly better fight than ROTS Mace against Anakin, but same result.

i put 500 dollars on Mace.

It woudln't matter. Mace was the superior duelist.

A horrible factor of the EU. But it is irrelevant. Macitrius.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
It doesn't make sense that lightsaber combat saber-to-saber wise would improve neccessarily with war with droids, either.
Sure it does. I makes them have better reflexes, have stronger muscles, have more endurance, train harder...

For one thing, Vader lost to Obi-Wan. I never said Anakin could beat any version of Dooku or Yoda. But we know TPM Mace is weaker than TPM Yoda/Dooku. But also Yoda didn't get as much stronger between TPM and ROTS (if he even got stronger) as Mace did since he didn't do as much fighting and had probably already reached his prime.

On another note, more people have said Mace in this thread. 6 people have said Mace so I am curious as to why there are only 2 votes for Mace

My God...people actually think Anakin would win...sad.

Sure it does. I makes them have better reflexes, have stronger muscles, have more endurance, train harder...

But it doesn't neccessarily make one a tremendously better saber user. Especially considering that mace created his own lightsaber style and was a Jedi master second on the council before Anakin could say his ABDs.


For one thing, Vader lost to Obi-Wan.

This is arguing semantics. ROTS Vader and Anakin are the same exact people, different handles and Vader has some neat-o contacts. There is NO difference in their abilities. ROTS Anakin and ROTS Vader are the same. Hell, the same day he's appointed a Sith Lord he's defeated. What is the difference?


I never said Anakin could beat any version of Dooku or Yoda. But we know TPM Mace is weaker than TPM Yoda/Dooku.

Not by much, and in any case, this doesn't prove the case for Anakin. So far, Anakin has no case.


But also Yoda didn't get as much stronger between TPM and ROTS (if he even got stronger) as Mace did since he didn't do as much fighting and had probably already reached his prime.

Unsupported speculation. Evidence of this?


On another note, more people have said Mace in this thread. 6 people have said Mace so I am curious as to why there are only 2 votes for Mace



Most people don't take the time to vote, since it reloads the page and it's a futile gesture anyways.

Mace wins. end of discussion. moving on to stupid jokes.

Why did the exterminator get fired? because he bugged his boss

There's a big bottle of mustard. a medium size bottle of mustard, and a small bottle of mustard. what did the two say to the smallest bottle? ketchup.

i know they're not funny but my friends and i laugh since they're so darn stupid.

I'm not sure on this fight. Everyone else basically doubled in power, why didn't Mace(excluding Yoda, but he shoudn't count).

At least he has a good chance. Better than Anakin. IF his skill in ep3 was due to his fighting in the Clone Wars, then I would give this to Anakin. But really, all he did was go spend a few weeks in the jungle and kill a lot of droids on Dantooine. With his fist. Killing those droids with fist isn't going to help him against a lightsaber and the Jungle time mainly is going to keep him from falling to the Darkside, not improve his skill.

I'm leaning towards Mace, but I'm not sure.

No, it wouldn't make one tremendously better at dueling, but it does make them better. Also, I'm sure Mace practiced with other Jedi during the gap between TPM and ROTS (we saw him spar with Vos) and he also fought Depa, Bulq and Asajj is duels, which made him just a bit stronger I'm sure. And did Mace master Vaapad by TPM? I didn't know he had mastered it by then. But I don't know alot about that stuff.

I think there is. Vader fights with rage and is more overconfident. Also I've heard Lucas has said Anakin's stronger than Obi-Wan, meaning Anakin is stronger than vader. Sinse I know you hate it when I say things without supporting any proof but myn own words I'll try to find out where/when he said it.

Sure he does. Apparently you think Qui-Gon's saber skills could at least rival Anakin's. But I guess you said Mace would pwn Anakin so I guess you think Qui-Gon would beat Anakin too, right?

Well, you really think he got stronger? Just sitting on his ass in the Council Chambers?

Originally posted by darthsith19
Sure it does. I makes them have better reflexes, have stronger muscles, have more endurance, train harder...

Whoa! Not cool. We belive the same thing in this forum and you put in a quote from someone else. I didn't say that.


Didn't want to double post. The clone wars definately heightened any jedis skills (that lived). In ROTS Anakin is one of the most powerful Jedis ever, not saying that Mace isn't in TPM, but Anakin would be able to take him. Anakin has the speed to take on Windu's Vaapad I would think.

ps- Has Windu mastered Vaapad by TPM?

No, it wouldn't make one tremendously better at dueling, but it does make them better.

I agree that the Clone Wars probably molded the jedi into better warriors. But don't think Anakin's Clone Wars experience is enough to topple someone who has been training and learning longer than he's been alive and then some.


Also, I'm sure Mace practiced with other Jedi during the gap between TPM and ROTS (we saw him spar with Vos) and he also fought Depa, Bulq and Asajj is duels, which made him just a bit stronger I'm sure.

Yeah, and he also sparred before that I'd imagine. I don't see any reason to think that TPM Mace < ROTS Anakinm, however.


And did Mace master Vaapad by TPM? I didn't know he had mastered it by then. But I don't know alot about that stuff.

Hm. It says on the starwars site that he made his own form at 13. This is Vaapad, which is an extension of Juyo (and Juyo itself conbined many elements of other forms). This implies great saber mastery by TPM alone.


I think there is. Vader fights with rage and is more overconfident.

Again, this is semantics. Vader and Anakin are the same physical person. To say that Vader fights with rage and is overconfidant and Anakin isn't is a bit misleading. For one thing, Anakin uses rage quite often in the series, from AOTC slaughtering the Sand People to defeating Assajj to his actions in Jedi Trial and then pushing back Dooku using anger. Anakin is also horribly overconfidant. In AOTC, he charged Dooku (A sith lord and a reputable jedi master) blindly and was rewarded with ownage. Anakin was also overconfidant in going to Geonosia to save Kenobi. He was overconfidant in being able to track down and defeat Grievious (though to be fair, it is possible he could very well have done it had he been sent and not Kenobi). Etc, etc. He was overconfidant in Jedi Trial, overconfidant in Dark Rendezvous, etc. They are the same person. Anakin did not stay as Vader for more than a day when he was struck down and reborn into the mecha-monstrosity we all know and love from the OT.

So really, this proves nothing.


Also I've heard Lucas has said Anakin's stronger than Obi-Wan, meaning Anakin is stronger than vader.

This is probably taken out of context. I -have- heard NG say that Anakin is a 9 on the scale o' lightsaber bias while Obi-Wan is an 8, but this didn't stop Obi-Wan from defeating him. And as pointed out above, Vader and Anakin are the same person until the transformation into the suit, which was a formality.


Sinse I know you hate it when I say things without supporting any proof but myn own words I'll try to find out where/when he said it.

Fair enough.


Sure he does. Apparently you think Qui-Gon's saber skills could at least rival Anakin's. But I guess you said Mace would pwn Anakin so I guess you think Qui-Gon would beat Anakin too, right?

This sole unsupported statement from a non-canon novelisation is ridiculous. I watched Qui-Gon in combat as did you. I read the novels in which he showed up. There is -nothing- to indicate that Qui-Gon is on par with Mace Windu other than this one hyperbole-ish statement.


Well, you really think he got stronger? Just sitting on his ass in the Council Chambers?

Do you really think that's all he did? You think he didn't go to missions or practice with peers or training his padawan (Who was a master by TPM) or train others? You think he just sat cross-legged on that ottoman for what? Years?

Janus could you please explain to me how the TPM novelisation is not canon?

Originally posted by Lord Simus
Janus could you please explain to me how the TPM novelisation is not canon? Oh by the way who is that in your avatar?

Why the hell did you quote yourself a minute after you originally posted?

And her is saying that it's got exagerations in that Novel.

If it contradicts, it's not canon. If it's hyperbole, it should be noted. There is nothing to show or indicate that Qui-Gon Jinn is as good as Mace is, and if this is the basis for this entire battle, come back when some valid points are to be made.

But do we konw for a fact how good Mace is by TPM? And Glentract I went to edit my post and messed up.

Alright. I understand the system screwing up.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
But do we konw for a fact how good Mace is by TPM? And Glentract I went to edit my post and messed up.

Dennis Miller in my avatar.

And Mace's skill with a lightsaber is implied in his position in the council, the fact that he was old enough at this time to have his own padawan be on the council (Depa Bilaba) and this implies a -hell- of a lot of saber training even at this point. ROTS Mace is something like fifty years old at least. If you take even the bare minimum fifty and subtract thirteen years, he's still 37, a jedi master and creator of his own lightsaber style which is based on Juyo (which in turn is based on several other forms, Anakin's of which is one of them).

Other than that, I don't have much. But the idea that Qui-Gon Jinn = Mace Windu is hyperbole. Qui-Gon Jinn was not very good at saber combat in TPM, and when Maul counterattacked for the first time, Qui was ataken back. A few short moments later Maul counters again and Qui dies. This implies a very limited understanding of battle and his own abilities, and the fact that he could not hold up a good defense (and indeed, was outdueled by his padawan... Obi-Wan did far more damage in a few short moments) makes me wonder just how much training under Dooku he had. If the argument is QGJ = TPM Mace < ROTS Anakin, I expect proof of the first half even being accurate. So far, I don't see a thing.

Did you ever consider that Qui-Gon=TPM Mace is true but Maul is just that good of a dueler? But before you say anything about Maul being put on his ass by Obi-Wan think about this.

-Maul had just killed a Jedi Master (one held in high regard)
-He also barely exerted himself that whole duel
-He underestimated Obi-Wan (I mean he just killed Qui-Gon)
-Obi-Wan was being fueled by darkside aggression (we all saw what it did for Luke in ROTJ in terms of breaking Vader's saberlock)

You could prove me wrong but I don't think anyone has ever thought about it like that.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
Did you ever consider that Qui-Gon=TPM Mace is true but Maul is just that good of a dueler? But before you say anything about Maul being put on his ass by Obi-Wan think about this.

-Maul had just killed a Jedi Master (one held in high regard)
-He also barely exerted himself that whole duel
-He underestimated Obi-Wan (I mean he just killed Qui-Gon)
-Obi-Wan was being fueled by darkside aggression (we all saw what it did for Luke in ROTJ in terms of breaking Vader's saberlock)

You could prove me wrong but I don't think anyone has ever thought about it like that.

I did! Haha, now your not special!

I never said I was and finally someone else who has thought that, I was starting to believe I was the only one.

Did you ever consider that Qui-Gon=TPM Mace is true but Maul is just that good of a dueler?

I did and then dismissed it. Qui-Gon is a terrible duellist; Mace, however, practices a more variable, solid style and is a virtual lightsaber prodigy. This is evident and there's nothing proofwise to say otherwise. Anyone who thinks Qui-gon -was- a good duellist obviously doesn't know a sword from a sock.


But before you say anything about Maul being put on his ass by Obi-Wan think about this.

He was on his ass. It happened. Admit it and move on.


-Maul had just killed a Jedi Master (one held in high regard)

For his wisdom. Qui Gon sucked. And as for Anoonda or whatever, he killed himself.


-He also barely exerted himself that whole duel

Which was smart, but it didn't keep Obi-Wan from beating his ass.


-He underestimated Obi-Wan (I mean he just killed Qui-Gon)

Trademark of a proud, foolhardy fighter. Sidious himself said he wished he hadn't made Maul so proud, if I remember correctly. In any case, where are you going with this?


-Obi-Wan was being fueled by darkside aggression (we all saw what it did for Luke in ROTJ in terms of breaking Vader's saberlock)

Please... ROTJ finale was pretty well unbelievable as a battle. Vader goads Luke into anger, then suddenly can't hang at all despite Luke's smaller stature, weaker physical strength, and swing, batta batta style. This doesn't imply Luke was stronger or better; it implies Vader was fueling Luke's anger and hatred per his master's orders, and it almost worked.

Secondly, dark side or no, Maul was supposed to be a Sith lord. The only way he'd be schooled by some padawan using the dark side is if A) Obi-Wan was stronger than he was B) Obi-Wan effectively kept him offguard and handed him his ass for a minute. What I noticed was both, apparently.


You could prove me wrong but I don't think anyone has ever thought about it like that.

Uh huh. What does that have to do with the fight? Does Qui-gon suddenly elevate in power level to possibly flirt with the possibility that QGJ = TPM Mace < ROTS Anakin by simply flailing away at a Sith lord who pwned him and in turn had his own ass handed to him by an angry padawan?

Please.

Qui Gon doesn't suck in lightsaber combat at all, he isn't at Windu level, but he doesn't suck. Also Maul died, but he had won the duel and was a better combatant then TPM Obi Wan. Maul was like Chuck Norris badass (Pre-Walker Texas Ranger).

First off Janus the stunt double in that fight probably sucked not to mention a while back in a Sidious thread you said you can't use senimatics in duels. Actually Anoon admitted defeat in that duel and also Sidious wished that he didn't instill so much 'hatred' for jedi. And I used that duel aas an example of Qui-Gon's skill.

It's semantics not senimatics, and there's nothing semantic about Qui-Gon Jinn sucking in the movies, since he does. Movie canon overrides fanfic-like novelisation hyperbole anyday, and Qui-Gon Jinn is not that good a swordsman. He sucks. Period.

Show me proof Qui-Gon sucks and don't use the movie duel.

LMFAO!

It's EVIDENT that he sucks as a duellist. Watch the duel. He leaves himself open constantly. He spins in a dramatic, slow motion to strike once, and Maul sees it before it completes and hops over it. He bashes at Maul and never once is the Zabrak in a tight spot because Qui-Gon Jinn fights like a five year old. Btw, things that are EVIDENT don't require PROOF. PROOF must first be EVIDENT, not the other way around. Jeez. Listen to yourself. You got fifty bucks riding on this battle?

I'm not arguing witn you. I'm debating with Janus. What you said's cool.

Maybe, maybe not, IMHO. But you do see reason to believe ROTS Mace > TPM Mace, right?

Yes, but Vader's more overconfident and figts with more rage than Anakin does. Anakin has more patience. And in AOTC he's more overconfident than he is in ROTS.

Wrong. I found out where it was said. George Lucas says it on the bonus dvd for the ot dvd set in the birth of the lightsaber. he says in rots, anakin is more powerful than Obi-Wan. Which also means Anakin's stronger than Vader.

But for all we know he was nearly as strong as TPM Mace since we don't really know how strong TPM Mace was (do we?).

Well, no but as far as action goes I think he only fought on Ilum, Vjun and Geonosis, which isn't much.

Yeah, he trained Younglings but that doesn't make him any stronger. And he pretty much stays in the temple. He's the link between Palpatine and the Jedi (as we find out in Dark Rendezvous).

Once again the stunt double for Qui-Gon probably sucked so other than one duel in the movie you have nothing. Also Mace was on the defensive his whole duel aginst Sidious so therefore Mace must be an inferior duelist by that logic.

qui gon did quite well against maul i thought!!

So he trained a Padawan and that means he had a lot of saber training?

Qui-Gon has been sprinting through the desert and Maul just dropped down on him. You try fighting after sprinting a couple of miles. And to say Qui-Gon's not even that good is riduculous.Only Maul, Mace, Yoda, Sidious, Obi-Wan (ROTS), Anakin (ROTS), Tyranus and Vader (ROTS) have outdueled fought better than him and they're the best of the best.

Qui-Gon was driving Maul back for a while.

All we have to tell how strong Mace is in TPM is the TPM novel, so unless you can contridict what it says...

Yeah they have, not many here, though. Most people here under-estimate both Qui-Gon and Maul.

No, TPM novel states Maul is stronger than Obi-Wan. By quite a bit. The only reason Obi won was because Maul got overconfident.

Maul actually lost because he couldnt sense what obiwan was about to do he had forgotten about the lightsaber he sensed danger but he didnt know what the danger was, also maul could have finished the both of them off in the beginning but he toys with jedi, so he had to pay, come now have you never read any maul books!!!

Originally posted by Lord Simus
Once again the stunt double for Qui-Gon probably sucked so other than one duel in the movie you have nothing. Also Mace was on the defensive his whole duel aginst Sidious so therefore Mace must be an inferior duelist by that logic.

To bad they didn't use stunt doubles in the fights and to bad you retarded. It doesn't matter that the actor sucked at fighting, the character IS that actor.

Second, Mace wasn't on the defensive against Sidious. Stop shouting this Sh!t around here. Mace won. Qui-gon lost.

How about you stop being an ass Glentract. And they did use stunt doubles on some special for Star Wars they said they put CGI images of the actors over the stunt doubles faces. And didn't you see Mace being forced back by Sidious?

Maybe, maybe not, IMHO. But you do see reason to believe ROTS Mace > TPM Mace, right?

This seems evident, considering that it's been thirteen years. Mace is second to a select couple at this point in the entire series. Able to contend with Dooku, Sidious, and Yoda, despite being a few decades younger than the youngest.


Yes, but Vader's more overconfident and figts with more rage than Anakin does. Anakin has more patience. And in AOTC he's more overconfident than he is in ROTS.

I don't see this at all. I think you need something more than your word to back this one up.


Wrong. I found out where it was said. George Lucas says it on the bonus dvd for the ot dvd set in the birth of the lightsaber. he says in rots, anakin is more powerful than Obi-Wan. Which also means Anakin's stronger than Vader.

How does Anakin > Obi-Wan = Anakin > Vader? And define stronger in this instance? Better in force potential? Better in skill. Physically stronger? Which is it? This is unfounded and ridiculous.


But for all we know he was nearly as strong as TPM Mace since we don't really know how strong TPM Mace was (do we?).

By this logic, we can't say for certain that Mace Windu would beat or lose to Anakin since we have so many unknowns. mace as of TPM could be exactly as he is in ROTS, since he, as you say, sits on his ass all day.

But if you want to talk about reasonable assumptions, tell me how an early twenties newly knighted Jedi knight who was trained for exactly 13 years is equal to or better than someone who was a jedi master before he was even born? Hell, by ROTS, Obi-Wan outfought Anakin and matched him for Force powers... are you telling me that the number two guy on the council in TPM was weaker than ROTS Obi-Wan? If so, proof for this?


Well, no but as far as action goes I think he only fought on Ilum, Vjun and Geonosis, which isn't much.

By that same reasoning, Anakin only fought in a handful of places in a span of three years. Before that, Anakin has two documented actions, and only one of those which he used a lightsaber.

... Which isn't much more, really. Doesn't swing the facts in his favor. And considering we have even less than that in line for Yoda as of TPM, he must really suck, huh?


Yeah, he trained Younglings but that doesn't make him any stronger. And he pretty much stays in the temple. He's the link between Palpatine and the Jedi (as we find out in Dark Rendezvous).

Actually, it's shown in Jedi Trial and other places that jedi spar with one another frequently. Considering that Mace is almost or about forty as of TPM and was trained from an infant, he has a wealth more of experience under his belt. And considering his reputation as of AOTC and the Clone Wars for being a badass mother****er, I really don't see ROTS Anakin being better from what's presented. Period.

Not for the entire fight.

Prove that they used stunt doubles. I've watched the bonus features on the AOTC DVD and it shows SLJ praticing his 180 move sequence for AOTC.

You also missed my point. I was saying that the stunt doubles weren't fighting, the characters were. If the stunt double was only that good, then the character is only that good.

So he trained a Padawan and that means he had a lot of saber training?

Read my above post.


Qui-Gon has been sprinting through the desert and Maul just dropped down on him. You try fighting after sprinting a couple of miles. And to say Qui-Gon's not even that good is riduculous.Only Maul, Mace, Yoda, Sidious, Obi-Wan (ROTS), Anakin (ROTS), Tyranus and Vader (ROTS) have outdueled fought better than him and they're the best of the best.

First, I wasn't talking about the desert fight; I was talking about the generator room scuffle.

Second, where the hell does it say only those people have beaten Qui-Gon Jinn? Lemme guess... TPM novel?


Qui-Gon was driving Maul back for a while.

Maul was in control of the fight. Qui-Gon was lashing out at him over and over again, never scoring a hit. Any decent swordsman will tell you this is poor form.


All we have to tell how strong Mace is in TPM is the TPM novel, so unless you can contridict what it says...

Correction; the only thing you're basing your entire argument off of is one line in the TPM novel. I bet you don't even know what hyperbole is.


Yeah they have, not many here, though. Most people here under-estimate both Qui-Gon and Maul.

Really? Well, you prove a case for them, we'll start believing then.


No, TPM novel states Maul is stronger than Obi-Wan. By quite a bit. The only reason Obi won was because Maul got overconfident.

So he was overconfidant for a whole minute? Really? Does he not know when to switch gears or something? Or could we flirt with the possibility that he was owned?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
To bad they didn't use stunt doubles in the fights and to bad you retarded.


laughinglaughinglaughing

Considering Janus just pwn3d your arguments into nothing. . .

Simus, a stunt double was used for Ian McDiarmid and Christopher Lee. That's it. During fall sequences and hard stunts, yes, there were doubles. But Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor 'dueled' Ray Park. And if you honestly think that 'stunt doubles sucked' is a halfway decent argument, then I laugh. I could just as easily say that Samuel L. Jackson sucks, so Mace Windu must be so much better. Or that Yoda's CG structure makes him too good, and thus, he must suck.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Considering Janus just pwn3d your arguments into nothing. . .

Simus, a stunt double was used for Ian McDiarmid and Christopher Lee. That's it. During fall sequences and hard stunts, yes, there were doubles. But Liam Neeson and Ewan McGregor 'dueled' Ray Park. And if you honestly think that 'stunt doubles sucked' is a halfway decent argument, then I laugh. I could just as easily say that Samuel L. Jackson sucks, so Mace Windu must be so much better. Or that Yoda's CG structure makes him too good, and thus, he must suck.

Arguing like this would make Cin Drallig the sabergod because Nick Gillard "invented" all the fighting for the other people and so he could pretty much waste them all...

Qui-Gon was driving Maul back for a while.

Maul was in control of the fight. Qui-Gon was lashing out at him over and over again, never scoring a hit. Any decent swordsman will tell you this is poor form.


Well Ben Kenobi (as far as technicalities go, Ben was younger than Qui Gon, so don't blame it on his age), Luke, and Vaders form weren't exactly perfect so you expect Qui Gons to be? Plus, you have to understand that the movies were meant to sell, not to be perfect in every area

Vader was using rage during the entire Obi-Wan fight. Anakin used very little for most of the Dooku fight. Heck, he's even the one who tells Obi-Wan to be patient.

So your one of them fools who thinks Vader's stronger than Obi-Wan and Obi only won because he happened got the high ground?

Stronger. Just in general. You have the OT on DVD, right? Watch the birth of the lightsaber yourself.

You know what Janus? Suck it. How damn stubborn can you get. George Lucas says Anakin's stronger then he's stronger. I'm afraid you cannot override what Lucas says.

Look again. I said that's what Yoda does. Snd there are a lot of unknowns.

Dude, this is the Chosenb One. And I guess by your logic Qui-Gon is stronger than ROTS Anakin, as well as Luminara, Plo Koon, Cin Drallig, Yaddle and a whole lot more (from TPM) since they were Jedi Knights before he was born.

Not sure. It could go either way, same as Anakin vs. Mace.

Jabiim, Vjun, the place he was before he went to Vjun, all the places in LOE, all the plavces in Clone Wars Volume 2, Yavin, the place all the Gungans died, Kamino, Munnilinst, the one he went to with A'Shared Hett and the one in Jedi Trial. Just a handful, huh? And that's the ones know/remember right off hand.

Yeah Janus, I'm sure Yoda has only gone of 5 missions by the time of TPM


Good job, you've just told everyone who AOTC-ROTS Mace could beat Anakin.

Okay, yeah, at first Qui-Gon was ataken back.

Good guess, thanks for helping. But no, Qui-Gon fought better than any of the other people in the movies.

Okay, he never scored a hit, but Maul only scored one. And it doesn't matter if he scored a hit, he was still winning for a short period of time. And I don't give a damn what any decent swordsman says about his form, none of you guys know whether it's a good form in a lightsaber duel. It worked for Luke in ROTJ.

Yeah, someone exaggerating. That'd be like Anakin saying AOTC Obi-Wan's as powerful as Master Windu and as wise as Master Yoda. But unless you can prove it was hyperbole you've got nothing.

Nothing I (or anybody else, for that matter) say will change your mind, Janus. Proof? I've been throwing it at you since I first came here. A few other people also throw some at you every now and then. You just say they're wrong and make an ill attempt (most of the time) to tell them why.

Well, his opponent was in a whole, unarmed, helpless, it seemed. Who wouldn't be overconfident? Yoda, perhaps Mace?

Umm, no.

Ah, but Vader and Luke are weak, remember. Despite what George Lucas says about Sidious being only 20% stronger than OT Vader, Vader's weaker than AOTC Anakin and still OT Sidious could beat ROTS Obi-Wan

You really really never do make sense, I swear. You read everything I post and get something totally different.

But thanks for the suck it comment. Here's one for you, darthsith.

http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/2016/arnoldstfu0fr.jpg

Yeah, DS19, you didn't make any sense to me.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Vader was using rage during the entire Obi-Wan fight. Anakin used very little for most of the Dooku fight. Heck, he's even the one who tells Obi-Wan to be patient.

Why you throw the Dooku fight in here ? Dooku faked it. Period. If he didn't than you have to say that Anakin used his anger to beat Dooku. Now...what do you want to tell me ? That you pulled the Dooku fight out of your hat to show us exactly nothing (Dooku faking it) or you want to tell us that Anakin was fighting Obi-Wan in the same condition he had beaten Dooku (being angry) ?



WTF ? Anakin and Vader are the damn SAME PERSON. Same fighting skills, same force powers. Vader became weaker when he was put in his suit (because losing Midichlorians in the duel with Obi-Wan) but what does this matter in a fight between Mace Windu and ROTS Anakin ?

Obi-Wan won because he outsmarted Anakin. Now Mace Windu (even in TPM) had more experience than Obi-Wan, was a better lightsaber duellist than Obi-Wan, was the superior force user (note Jedi Master in the age of 28, Knight at the age of 13) and he would have outduelled Anakin AND outsmarted him.



Nice definition of "stronger" but again: HUH ?



Stronger compared to what ? To Vader in suit. Sure he is. Now what ?



Use some logic please. Janus was talking about experience. Do the people you mentioned have more experience than Anakin ? Yes. Are they better fighters ? We can't tell. Are they superior force users ? We can't tell.
Mace is naturally gifted with both: Force use and lightsaber fighting and he is simply the second best swordfighter the Jedi have in the PT era. So what ? He lost to Dooku CLOSE in a duel in TPM time now Anakin and Obi-Wan got their ass kicked badly by Dooku when fighting him together in ROTS before he lost the fight on purpose to Anakin. So what ? TPM Mace will most likely school Anakin badly.



No. It could NOT go either way. Obi-Wan will get pwned.



Let's just see.
Mace became a Jedi Knight at the age of 13 and invented his own style which is said to be the most deadly form of lightsaber combat (Shatterpoint). He became Jedi Master at the age of 28 (note: He must have trained a Padawan in order to archieve that status).

Now just notice the following fact: Windu was even legendary BEFORE the clone wars started. He confronted 14 bandits at once and they dropped their weapons instead of trying to fight him.

Even in TPM times he was already sitting on the Council for 12 years and was number 2 of the order. In AotC you basically the very same Mace Windu fighting on Geonosis (since he didn't do much from TPM to AotC) and he was deflecting 6 blaster bolts in less than a second, pwned a droid with a blaster bolt he deflected backwards just to pwn Jango Fett (who heself called the "deadliest man in the galaxy" badly. Not impressive ?



LOL ? Ever watched AotC or ROTS and see Yoda fighting ? He would kick Qui-Gon bad. Obi-Wan and Anakin would do the same. Mace Windu also.



What the hell ?
Qui-Gon used form IV which is very aggressive and therefore he simply lacks a good defence. Obi-Wan changed his style because he saw what flows the style had. The only person who realy fought well with that style is Yoda - and that because he doesn't need his lightsaber for defence (being able to dodge hits).
And Luke is using form V in ROTJ - so a different one. If you don't have an idea what you're talking about better keep your mouth shut.



Read all goddamn SW sources. Mace was ONLY ever challenged, beaten and compared to Dooku and Yoda. So...only Dooku and Yoda (who both could school all other people in the movies badly) can compare to Mace Windu. Now you think that Qui-Gon who lost to somebody like Maul (who would get wasted by Dooku and Yoda in less than a minute) would be a better lightsaber duellist than Mace ? OF COURSE IT WAS A HYPERBOLE.

If you don't want to realize that: In Shatterpoint it's said that Mace can attack people so fast that he seems to be invisible. Now what ? Will Mace pwn Anakin because Anakin would not be able to see him ? Great.



I have changed Janus mind on some occassions. He actually changes his mind when you can provide proof for your oppinion instead of writing down some terrible nonsens - and that's exactly what you're doing here at the moment.



Oh...let's see.
He didn't realize that there was a lightsaber left.
He didn't realize that the lightsaber was moving before Obi-Wan did jump over him.
And being the great lightsaber duellist you think he is - he wasn't able to parry Obi-Wan's strike despite the fact that he had his lightsaber still ignited. Notice that Vader needed less reaction time in ROTJ when Luke tried to kill Sidious.



Where did you get the idea from that OT Vader is weaker than AotC Anakin ? He's only weaker than Anakin in terms of force potential and physical speed. This is what Lucas is always talking about. Anakin lost some of his potential when Obi-Wan cut his legs and arm of. Your point here being ? If Sidious is only 20 % better than OT Vader and OT Vader would be weaker than AotC Anakin, every damn stupid Jedi in ROTS would be able to kick Sidious ass which isn't the case.

^amen to that!

Well, I wasn't gonna do the footwork to correct someone who is obviously confused, but looks like Nai didn't pass up the punch. Touche, man.

To answer Janus's question. I guess next time I won't bother as it does no good. NTW, nice comeback, Janus. Telling me to shut the **** up. Real good.


I know Dooku fakes it. Why the **** are you bringing that up? My point was Vader used much more uncontrolled rage while fighting Obi-Wan than Anakin did while fighting Dooku. But my main point was Anakin's stronger than Obi-Wan, which means he's stronger than Vader. And since my point has been proved lets just drop this part of the debate.

Tell that to Obi-Wan, Vader and Luke.

So Vader's stronger than Obi-Wan?

More experience than someone who has fought in the Clone Wars? And TPM Mace is only 2 years older than ROTS Obi-Wan.

Huh what?

No, Anakin's stronger than Obi-Wan.

Yes, that's all ture but Dooku got alot stronger between TPM and ROTS as well.

You say that when you only have a vague idea of how strong TPM Mace is.

Wow, Thirteen? Are you serious?

Yes, he did train Depa but you don't have to train a Padawan to become a Master.

AOTC Mace could beat Anakin. And how do you know he did nothing between TPM and AOTC? Just because there's no books on what he did doesn't mean he did nothing. And did you say Mace called Jango the deadliest man in the galaxy? When? Snd anywahs, this is clearly wrong. Sidiious is clearly the deadliest. And Jango's jetpack broke, whoch is why he got pwned.


You don't know what you're talking about. If you read my previous post you'd know I meant everybody except Yoda, Mace, Sidious, Tyranus and Anakin/Obi-Wan (ROTS).

Okay, just because his form had flaws doesn't mean Qui-Gon was weak. Yoda used it and it worked well. yes, he can dodge hits, but so can any Jedi, some better than others.

You to. I didn't say they used the same form, just that wacking and lashing out worked for Luke when he defeated Vader.

According to who? You? And sw's sources say Qui-Gon rivaled Mace.

Okay, Yoda and Dooku were the only ones who could ever beat Mace, but I would say Yoda's quite a ways above TPM Mace. And AOTC-ROTS Dooku would beat Maul by quite a bit, TPM Dooku would be a better match for Maul.

How many times have I got to say AOTC and ROTS Mace would beat Anakin? And his punches are invisible to the naked eye, not to someone using the Force to make things seem slower.

Good job. You deserve a gold medal.

Yeah, what I'm saying is ubber nonsense

He was caught by surprise. Vader was expecting Luke to do what he did.

That's what Janus said.

Exactly my point.

You just made a bunch of gay nonsensical arguments. Congratulations.

I said AOTC Anakin is better than OT Vader? When was this? More darthshit19 stuff?

Yeah, I just skimmed through Janus' post and didn't that.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I know Dooku fakes it. Why the **** are you bringing that up? My point was Vader used much more uncontrolled rage while fighting Obi-Wan than Anakin did while fighting Dooku. But my main point was Anakin's stronger than Obi-Wan, which means he's stronger than Vader. And since my point has been proved lets just drop this part of the debate.

Hell...
a) Anakin is stronger than Obi-Wan. Yes.
b) Anakin is stronger than Vader. In terms of raw potential. Yes. In terms of movement abilities. Yes. In terms of lightsaber combat. No. How would he ? Vader in suit is Anakin with mechanical arms (more strength) and more practice in lightsaber combat. You know that fighting is not only a matter of physical condition. Do you ?



No. Obi-Wan would still most likely beat ANH Vader. But he has beaten ROTS Anakin too. Your point being ?



a) "Wars don't make someone great" - Yoda.
b) Yes. He has more experience because he's 40 and Anakin is 23.
c) TPM Mace reached Knight status in half the time Obi-Wan needed and has reached Master status in an age where Obi-Wan became a Jedi Knight. So what ?



And TPM Mace is simply better than Obi-Wan and Anakin. He would outclass Anakin. Period.



He's a living legend even in that time. Number 2 of the order. Not to mention he must have mastered forms IV, V and VII in this time in order to use Vaapad. He would destroy Anakin.



Yes. Thirteen.



Becoming a Master does require to train a Padawan. Being on the Council does not but Master status does require that. Just read something about Ki-Adi-Mundi. He was a Knight in TPM times but on the Council and became Master AFTER having trained a Padawan.



What should he have done between TPM and AotC ? Obviously no bigger conflicts where going on.
Mace called Jango the deadliest man in the galaxy in "Shatterpoint" when he doesn't know about Sidious (but he did know Dooku) and obviously he considered Jango to be a bigger thread.



Yoda can avoid hits from Depa Billaba, Plo Koon and Saesee Tiin at once without using a lightsaber. If Qui-Gon was anywhere near that level he would have killed Maul. Form IV only works well for Yoda because he can go 100 % offense since he doesn't need the lightsaber for defensive actions.



Bad choreography 20 years ago and Vader didn't want to kill his son so he wasn't trying. The very same way Obi-Wan wasn't trying to kill Vader in ANH.



According to the starwars.com Databank:
"In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him -- Yoda, and Dooku."



They are all FAR above ROTS Anakin so why you even writing about that ?



How many times do I have to tell you that TPM Mace is basically = AotC Mace and he would beat Anakin too. And Mace was fighting another FORCE USER and seemed to be "invisible" to him, placing 6 hits onto his opponent before he could even react.



Yes. It is. Nice that you're finally realizing it.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
I said AOTC Anakin is better than OT Vader? When was this? More darthshit19 stuff?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=366952&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=3

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Hell...
a) Anakin is stronger than Obi-Wan. Yes.
b) Anakin is stronger than Vader. In terms of raw potential. Yes. In terms of movement abilities. Yes. In terms of lightsaber combat. No. How would he ? Vader in suit is Anakin with mechanical arms (more strength) and more practice in lightsaber combat. You know that fighting is not only a matter of physical condition. Do you ?


A. Okay, we agree.
B. He's better than at saber combat. How would he not be? Not only ROTS non-mechanical Vader but definately OT Vader. OT Vader may have more arm strength but he's alot slower.


No, I mean you think ROTS non-mechanical Vader is stronger than Obi-Wan?


Yeah, it doesn't make one a great person. But it does make them strong. There's no denying that, having seen how much stronger both Anakin and Obi-Wan became between AOTC and ROTS.

Yes, I meant more experienced than Obi-Wan?


Just over 1/2 the time, actually, and he was 3 years stronger than Obi-Wan when he became a Master than when Obi became a Knight. But yes, those are great acclompishments. 28 year old Mace would beat 28 year old Obi-Wan. But this doesn't mean 40 year old Mace would beat 38 year old Obi-Wan. And Anakin was the youngest Jedi ever to be on the Council. Sn acclompishment above the one's of Mace's you posted, with the exception, perhaps, of becoming a Knight at the age of 13.

Number 2 of the order, yes. But ROTS Anakin wasn't around then. Anyway, maybe Mace would beat Anakin. Either way I'm sure it'd be very close. But I'm still leaning on Anakin. Mace may have been a legend at the age of 40 but Anakin was a legend at the age of 23.

No, an experienced Jedi Knight may become a Master, upon approval of the Jedi Council, after showing great understanding of the Force. This became apparent in ROTS when Mace said the Council did not grant him the rank of Master, thus implying that they had the authority of granting him the rank of master, despite him not having trained a padawan.

No, Mundi was a Master in TPM. Remember what Anakin said in ROTS. No other Jedi Knight has ever been on the Council. And Mundi never trained a Padawan.

No, nothing big but at the least Mace practiced between that time. Does Mace strike you as the type of Jedi who'd just not have any action in 10 years?

Hmm. And do the movies go along with this? No, it is very clear Mace was wrong. It's very clear Dooku was more deadly. Perhaps Mace meant Jango has personally killed more people? Or he was the most dangerous before Dooku revealed himself as a Sith?

Yoda can avoid hits from them but he'd need a blade to beat them. Qui-Gon's nopt near that level but any jedi can go offensive somehwat. And any Jedi, no matter what form they use, can defend themselves with a blade at least somewhat. Not saying Jinn could evade those 3 Jedi without a blade but he can defend himself somewhat.

Okay, Vader wasn't trying to kill Luke and that's why he threw his saber at him? That's why he swung at Luke after Luke had lowered his defenses? And even if he didn't want to kill Luke (which he did) he could have at least defended himself. Or could he have? Apparently not.

Nice find. Okay, there the only ones who ever bested Mace. But they arn't the only one's who ever rivaled him.

TPM Dooku? Hard to say. Though he is stronger than TPM Mace. In any case he wasn't FAR above Anakin. Though Yoda was.

Keyword "basically." and what've you got to prove that?

Did it ever say in the book Kar couldn't see Mace's punches? I don't think so. And Luke, in Shadows of the Emperor (between ESB and ROTJ) slowed Guri down enough with the Force that he beat her easily (once he got fully connected with the Force). And normally she can move so fast she can kill you before you can draw your blaster. Not quite as fast as Mace but then again, ROTS Anakin is leagues above Shadows of the Emperor Luke.

I was kidding (duh).

Awwww, Darth Sith is so cute when he is obscenely overconfident.
And everyone on the Mace side is only looking at one side of the facts.
I'm out to make as many enemies as possible.
I came into this thinking Anakin could win because he has more potential, he had lots of experience from the clone wars, and the age difference wasn't that much. Darth Sith, no offence but I,ve seen no good arguments for this, It was all like haha, lol, like that could happen

p.s.-(My brothers theory) Dooku didn't fake it, Sids helped Anakin out in the fight with the force.

I'm thinking of responding to every post here too and then agreeing with everything. It would make an annoying unreadable post, everybody will think I'm a good debasor then.
I rock.

heh,yeah yeah, i know

Bumpity bump.

I don't know who would win.