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From what I've heard these two are pretty much even so who do you think wins?

Batgirl takes the majority in a MA hand to hand tussle.

Every resource, i.e figthing in the city: Nightwing, more acrobatic and more experienced.

H2H Batgirl curbstomps Nightwing

see how the hell did batgirl get so good at hand to hand? any ways in a city theres no way night wing going down vs her

Originally posted by steverules
From what I've heard these two are pretty much even so who do you think wins?

You heard wrong!

Batgirl (the new one, i.e Cassandra Cain) is so far ahead of Nightwind in hand to hand combat that this is not even a fair fight. Nightwing wouldn't even be able to HIT HER ONCE! The new batgirl is one of DC's premier martial artists.

Batgirl takes this blindfolded. Literally.

Whoever told you Nightwing and Batgirl were evenly matched either did not know what they were talking about, or they outright lied to you.

"see how the hell did batgirl get so good at hand to hand? any ways in a city theres no way night wing going down vs her"

She has been written since her introduction as being that good. Nightwing on the other hand hasent.

Originally posted by wolverine8888
see how the hell did batgirl get so good at hand to hand? any ways in a city theres no way night wing going down vs her

How did Batgirl get so good hand to hand?
Well, let's see. Since childhood she was trained by Cain to be the perfect assassin, and thus versed in all forms of combat. She was then passed along for a while to the League of Assassins for more training. Add to that her ability to read a person, which basically gives her what is analogous to compbat telepathy (not actual telepathy, but acts like it) where she can 'read' a person's body like it was an open book.
Then add to this that she has stood up to Shiva, and went ahead to beat her.
Oh, add the whole snatching shurikens out of the air, dodging bullets at point blank range, and the CIA (in Knight ALone) confusing her for a metahuman because of her speed and strength (they thought she was metahuman due to her speed being 4 times faster than human baseline, and strength 2 times stronger than human baseline ....but all that was from training). Even Batman has confessed that she is beyond him in combat.

You (as well as the guy who started this thread) must be confusing the current Batgirl Cassandra Cain with the older one (the red head) Barbara Gordon, the current Oracle.

Matching the current Batgirl against NightWing would be tantamount to murder. The chances of Nightwing winning (barring cosmic shifts, tectonic plate upheavals, or the nigh Apocalypse) are ABSOLUTELY ZERO!

I can't even believe this thread made it.

don't count Nightwing out people he's the orginal Batman junior....though if he wins it'd be by the narrowest of margins.


I give Dick a 3 out 10 shot....hey that's better than nuthin right?

Originally posted by steverules
From what I've heard these two are pretty much even so who do you think wins?

Actually the only people in DC earth who can give Batgirl problems are as follows (normal people ....and I don't think Karate Kid is really normal thus I am excluding himsince he can do feats that even Superman would have problems replicating)

The people are:
1) Lady Shiva
2) Richard Dragon.
3) Connor Hawke (the current Green Arrow, and the current Silver Monkey, which is a top echelon of martial artist in the Monkey Cult, which Hawke won due to his skill. He was also invited, along with Richard Dragon, to participate in death matches against the best the world had to offer, with the winner receiving the 'honor' of fighting to the death against Lady Shiva)
4) I have to put Batman.

The above 4 are the only truly 'normal' people on DC that could give Batgirl some pause, and of the four only the first 2 would have a real chance of winning. Batgirl may have 'beaten' Shiva, but it was more of a draw; and Shiva might have killed R.Dragon (the classic fingers through the brain kill technique), but Richard almost killed Shiva in exactly the same way before he was interrupted by Shiva's guards (this was in the Richard Dragon mini-series). Thus one could say Batgirl, Shiva, and Richard Dragon are more or less equal; and depending on the day any of them could win.
Connow Hawke has a slight chance, but not too big. He once faced Shiva, and although he did not come close to winning he did not die. But in actuality his chances of beating Shiva, BGirl or Dragon are slim at best.
Batman couldn't do it if he resorted to pure hand to hand. He once tried to hit Batgirl during training (once she got her 'body reading' ability back), and couldn't even touch her even though he was trying his best.

As for Nightwing.
Well, in this list he is a non-starter.

Originally posted by Mainstream
don't count Nightwing out people he's the orginal Batman junior....though if he wins it'd be by the narrowest of margins.


I give Dick a 3 out 10 shot....hey that's better than nuthin right?

Honestly in H2H I'd give him a zero. He literally has no chance.

After all, how do you beat someone who is by FAR better trained than you are, better skilled than you are (to the point that where you have to evade bullets she merely walks between them), is far faster than you are, and was brought up as a killing machine since childhood?
Oh, and she can also read you and know what moves you are going to do BEFORE you do them!

Originally posted by spetznaz
You heard wrong!

Batgirl (the new one, i.e Cassandra Cain) is so far ahead of Nightwind in hand to hand combat that this is not even a fair fight. Nightwing wouldn't even be able to HIT HER ONCE! The new batgirl is one of DC's premier martial artists.

Batgirl takes this blindfolded. Literally.

Whoever told you Nightwing and Batgirl were evenly matched either did not know what they were talking about, or they outright lied to you.

whoa calm down i told him that........I don't wanna look bad......

Originally posted by spetznaz
Honestly in H2H I'd give him a zero. He literally has no chance.

After all, how do you beat someone who is by FAR better trained than you are, better skilled than you are (to the point that where you have to evade bullets she merely walks between them), is far faster than you are, and was brought up as a killing machine since childhood?
Oh, and she can also read you and know what moves you are going to do BEFORE you do them!

ah come on Dick Grayson can swing and kick a$$ with the greatest of ease.

What surprised me more in the last Dragon/Shiva fight was essentially two things.

He had Shiva down quickier than Cassie did. OTOH he knows her alot better.

And Dragon also knows the leopard blow. That was damn neat.

Spetznaz you also missed one in your list: Bronze Tiger. I place him above Connor -at least-. For those who think Batman is at least better than this guy?

He never lost against Batman. And he won once.

whoa calm down i told him that........I don't wanna look bad......

Sorry Will but you already have by admitting to it. I wasn't going to mension that you told me they were on the same level because I thought that would be mean. Oh well better coming from you than from me.

Originally posted by olympian
What surprised me more in the last Dragon/Shiva fight was essentially two things.

He had Shiva down quickier than Cassie did. OTOH he knows her alot better.

And Dragon also knows the leopard blow. That was damn neat.

Spetznaz you also missed one in your list: Bronze Tiger. I place him above Connor -at least-. For those who think Batman is at least better than this guy?

He never lost against Batman. And he won once.

I wanted to include the Bronze Tiger but didn't know where he stacked compared to the rest on the list. Based on his (Bronze Tiger's) showing where he, Dragon and NightWing kicked the behinds of those League of Assassins dudes, shows that Tiger is definitely kick-ass (and better than NightWing). And the fact that he was the one who introduced Dragon into the martial arts gives him depth. What i don't know is how he currently stacks up against the others (who are at their prime in age).

And I agree when it comes to Connor. Hawke is sweet.

Originally posted by olympian
What surprised me more in the last Dragon/Shiva fight was essentially two things.

He had Shiva down quickier than Cassie did. OTOH he knows her alot better.

And Dragon also knows the leopard blow. That was damn neat.

Spetznaz you also missed one in your list: Bronze Tiger. I place him above Connor -at least-. For those who think Batman is at least better than this guy?

He never lost against Batman. And he won once.

And yes, Richard Dragon kicked butt in that mini-series. He actually won the fight in my opinion, since he had Shiva down and was prepared to deliver the Leopard Blow by driving his fingers through her skull. He had the fight in the bag .....but then Shiva's guards tackled him and they had to restart the fight (in which case Shiva got mad-furious and killed Dragon by using the Leopard Blow).
That was cool.

Originally posted by steverules
From what I've heard these two are pretty much even so who do you think wins?
Who ever told you that needs to be slapped down. Batgirl can curbstomp Batman much less Nightwing.

"I wanted to include the Bronze Tiger but didn't know where he stacked compared to the rest on the list"

I place him as below Dragon/Shiva. Right now probably Cassie can be better, but i wouldnt place many bets on it, since pre crisis he has that place going for him.

Honestly there is no way to know right now, Dragon/Shiva/Tiger/Connor and Cassie are what the top martial arts tier are all about. I just tend to go by his rep, and experience over the two youngest. He also gave a good fight against Dragon (Dragon #1), easily stalemated Bats in a Suicide Squade/JL kind of match and won another solo match against him. So hes surely up there.

And yup. Dragon had her pinned and the fight pretty much where he wanted to.

Hmm it's a tough call....Batgirl is a better fighter..but Nightwing is more expierienced and can use the gadgets more properly...I might go way out here but I believe he's stronger and at least as fast.......so I'd say .....Batgirl....sorry she beat Shiva Nightwsing can not do that...he's still the better heroe but a fight won't end good for him....

Although..what the **** is up with Batman beating Shiva with one blow...that'S jsut wrong....

She was being mind controlled, and didnt fought as she knew. Batman makes reference to it after he koed her.

Even so it wasent either a one shot ko. There was more of the fight before that.

Who ever told you that needs to be slapped down. Batgirl can curbstomp Batman much less Nightwing.

Well the person who told me has alredy admitted it, so you may as well scroll up the page and the look for the spidey sig that says willrules.

Originally posted by olympian
What surprised me more in the last Dragon/Shiva fight was essentially two things.

He had Shiva down quickier than Cassie did. OTOH he knows her alot better.

And Dragon also knows the leopard blow. That was damn neat.

Spetznaz you also missed one in your list: Bronze Tiger. I place him above Connor -at least-. For those who think Batman is at least better than this guy?

He never lost against Batman. And he won once.


Actually Olympian, I remembered the fight between Bronze Tiger/Batman. That was the one which Kathy Kane dies right? I think you were refering where Batman was knocked out by BT but that was from behind. Later they fought again. But Bats was not only fighting BT but several of the league members also. BT later escaped with the sensei. Batman did well in that fight. How can you consider BT win?

You have scans? I think it was that one, but i dont remember if anyone died or not.

Both BT and Batman wer figthing others beyond themselves in that second match iirc, both teams wer involved, not only them.

Yeah, second face off between Bats and BT was the fair one at least. From what i remember, Batman was holding on against the more vicious BT. But kathy's death was the one that pushed Bruce for that stalemate. If only i had that issue now with me.

Ill try to get the scans if possible.

If not, at least more info on how both matchs went.

dont forget batman can do almost all the stuff they can do but constatenly holds back

Everyone holds back when they have to.

Anyway here are two of the fights he had with Bronze Tiger. There is one missing wich is the first where Batman lost.

This is the second match. Bronze Tiger prepares. ( he was with the league of assasines by then ).

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3971/tigerskill1.jpg
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9776/tigerskill2.jpg

Second match, on:

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/2375/batiger1.jpg
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9849/batiger2.jpg
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/3967/batiger3.jpg
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/8091/batiger4.jpg
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5397/batiger5.jpg
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/945/batiger6.jpg
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/9859/batiger7.jpg

And the third match.

http://img126.exs.cx/img126/2444/man0.jpg
http://img30.exs.cx/img30/1559/man5.jpg
http://img132.exs.cx/img132/2168/man2.jpg
http://img108.exs.cx/img108/4033/man3.jpg
http://img115.exs.cx/img115/1559/man5.jpg

All in all, the match is closer than i remembered. Altho i still mantain the position that Bronze Tiger always seems to have a slight skill edge over Batman.

If someone has the first match, post aye.

Absolutely no doubt Batgirl (Cass) would literally use Nightwing as a
training dummy. He simply wouldn't have a prayer.
A few things to consider about the portrayal of martial arts in comic
books and the media in general:
1) There is a tendency to show flashy techniques that have visual
appeal but are not effective against even a moderately skilled opponent in actual combat. Observe Batman's high kick in the last
fight against the Bronze Tiger. The higher the kick the more power
you lose and the more likely it is that the opponent will see it coming
and counter. The same applies in relation to jumping/flying
techniques and other fancy but ineffective acrobatic moves. Mobility
and great power are generated by being in contact with the Earth
(the ground - though the use of the word Earth is a clue to some of
the higher martial arts training that is not generally known).

2) Assassins are trained in the art of killing by stealth. As such their
training concentrates on (a) long range techniques using weapons (b)
supprise attacks using weapons and (c) deception/sleight of hand like
the use of poisons etc. There is a widely held misconception that they
are consummate masters of unarmed combat. They do receive some
unarmed combat training but they are not specialists in it & certainly
not highly skilled masters.

3) Turning your body into a finely tuned instrument/weapon is not
the realm of the assassin. It is a life long dedication devoted to
embracing the mystery of your being and essentially spiritual in
nature.

Take care & have fun for the journey of life passing in the blink of an
eye

Why are people responding based solely on H2H?

Wow this is an old thread bring's back the good old memories of the summer holidays and now the good soon to be old memories of the half term.

Nightwing is the leader of the outsiders he'll just call them to kick her ass and he'll just rellax and drink lemonade or shit shit

I think it's possible Nightwing could pull a win through some sort of trick or trap. I'd give him somewhere between 1 and 2 chances in 100.

If he just needed to delay her, his odds might go up to 3 chances in 10 (hey, he's avoided being completely outclassed by Deathstroke before).

I'd say NW the majority why?He's been fighting and beating people with super powers that make them more dangerous then Batgirl.He's stronger,faster, and more agile plus he's tougher.

There's a good chance that Batgirl's around Nightwing's level of strength. Compared to a normal human, she's about twice human norm.

She's definitely faster. She can dodge point blank shots and is said to be about four times human norm.

She's also tougher. She was shot by Cain as part of her training. Even Batman's not that nuts. NW got off easy in his training.