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Im Christian just to let you know. But I come to the conclusion that Noah Ark could not have existed for a few reasons.....

Races there are people of different races all over the world such as White, Black, Native Americans, Asians, and many more how could we have had all the different races develop if only Noah and his familiy were on the Ark?
The Size of the Boat would have to tremendous in size bigger than any boat the world has ever known. The boat would have to carry all Mammals, Insects, Birds, Reptiles, and Fresh Water Fish. DO you know how many different types of Insects theyre, theyre 900000 types of different insects. Also they would have to carry every plant that is on earth, becuz when the earth floods salt water will go all over the land, and Salt Water kills plants. Also with it raining as much as it did the plants would get no sun light and die. Also whats to keep any of the animals from dieing becuz of sickness, becuz if they did die that spieces would be completely gone.
Also the amount of food they would have to bring would be enormous. They would have to bring much hay for the Herbivores. But heres where the strange part comes in, the meat eaters would have to have meat to eat, and meat would spoil before 40 days were over, so if this was true they couldnt of possibly fed the meat eaters. Then for the amount of water they would have to bring on board would be tremendous too. They would have to carry enough water for the animals and their selves which is impossible.
Another reason is there just isnt enough water in the world to flood the whole world. Also its not possible to rain for 40 days becuz the sun would have to come out to evaporate the water, becuz if it didnt there wouldnt be any rain clouds.
Also how in the world did the animals get on different continents? Did Noah sail to every continent, if he did he would have truly been the first person to find the America's instead of Columbus, but that is most likely not true. Also he would have had to go to every fresh watern lake, river, and stream to put the fresh water fish where they belong, becuz they cant just get there theyre selfs, and that would be journey that could not be made in a single life time. Also how did all the different races get on different continents, that just doesnt seem possible.

More reasons to come.....

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
Im Christian just to let you know. But I come to the conclusion that Noah Ark could not have existed for a few reasons.....

Races there are people of different races all over the world such as White, Black, Native Americans, Asians, and many more how could we have had all the different races develop if only Noah and his familiy were on the Ark?
The Size of the Boat would have to tremendous in size bigger than any boat the world has ever known. The boat would have to carry all Mammals, Insects, Birds, Reptiles, and Fresh Water Fish. DO you know how many different types of Insects theyre, theyre 900000 types of different insects. Also they would have to carry every plant that is on earth, becuz when the earth floods salt water will go all over the land, and Salt Water kills plants. Also with it raining as much as it did the plants would get no sun light and die. Also whats to keep any of the animals from dieing becuz of sickness, becuz if they did die that spieces would be completely gone.
Also the amount of food they would have to bring would be enormous. They would have to bring much hay for the Herbivores. But heres where the strange part comes in, the meat eaters would have to have meat to eat, and meat would spoil before 40 days were over, so if this was true they couldnt of possibly fed the meat eaters. Then for the amount of water they would have to bring on board would be tremendous too. They would have to carry enough water for the animals and their selves which is impossible.
Another reason is there just isnt enough water in the world to flood the whole world. Also its not possible to rain for 40 days becuz the sun would have to come out to evaporate the water, becuz if it didnt there wouldnt be any rain clouds.
Also how in the world did the animals get on different continents? Did Noah sail to every continent, if he did he would have truly been the first person to find the America's instead of Columbus, but that is most likely not true. Also he would have had to go to every fresh watern lake, river, and stream to put the fresh water fish where they belong, becuz they cant just get there theyre selfs, and that would be journey that could not be made in a single life time. Also how did all the different races get on different continents, that just doesnt seem possible.

More reasons to come..... is anything too difficult for God ?

Even though Im christian in my heart I know God doesnt exist. If he did exist he wouldnt allow any people die from unnatural reasons, such as being shot and killed.

obviously since everyone does not believe in this god

christian with an atheist view now thats a new one

Originally posted by mysparrow
is anything too difficult for God ?

Well, he's having a hard time with satan right now......they keep gambling up there...upping the ante.

Texas hold `em?

...Texas hold em...don't know when to fold em....

There was a Noah's Ark "they" suspect although it wasn't like the Noah's Ark in the bible.......historically at least thats what National Geographic told me

Similar stories exist in other religions and cultural traditions. Noah's Ark wasn't the first "let's build a big boat for this flood" story...it was just assimilated into Christianity. I'd say your inclinations are true. Lots of the stories are borrowed or modified once you start to look into it.

And if I could remember the source where I read that about the Ark, I'd post it. So I apologize, but my word is all I have to go off of. It did exist at least in some ancient Hindu text (in a similar form), I just can't remember the details.

Yes I think thats something people need to keep in mind when reading alot of religious texts is that most of what is said is just a parable.

Some philosophies are a little more relaxed in the interpretation and others blind to the reality

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
Im Christian just to let you know. But I come to the conclusion that Noah Ark could not have existed for a few reasons.....

Races there are people of different races all over the world such as White, Black, Native Americans, Asians, and many more how could we have had all the different races develop if only Noah and his familiy were on the Ark?
The Size of the Boat would have to tremendous in size bigger than any boat the world has ever known. The boat would have to carry all Mammals, Insects, Birds, Reptiles, and Fresh Water Fish. DO you know how many different types of Insects theyre, theyre 900000 types of different insects. Also they would have to carry every plant that is on earth, becuz when the earth floods salt water will go all over the land, and Salt Water kills plants. Also with it raining as much as it did the plants would get no sun light and die. Also whats to keep any of the animals from dieing becuz of sickness, becuz if they did die that spieces would be completely gone.
Also the amount of food they would have to bring would be enormous. They would have to bring much hay for the Herbivores. But heres where the strange part comes in, the meat eaters would have to have meat to eat, and meat would spoil before 40 days were over, so if this was true they couldnt of possibly fed the meat eaters. Then for the amount of water they would have to bring on board would be tremendous too. They would have to carry enough water for the animals and their selves which is impossible.
Another reason is there just isnt enough water in the world to flood the whole world. Also its not possible to rain for 40 days becuz the sun would have to come out to evaporate the water, becuz if it didnt there wouldnt be any rain clouds.
Also how in the world did the animals get on different continents? Did Noah sail to every continent, if he did he would have truly been the first person to find the America's instead of Columbus, but that is most likely not true. Also he would have had to go to every fresh watern lake, river, and stream to put the fresh water fish where they belong, becuz they cant just get there theyre selfs, and that would be journey that could not be made in a single life time. Also how did all the different races get on different continents, that just doesnt seem possible.

More reasons to come.....

There's another Noah's Ark thread that covers most of what you are talking about. But...

Races... over hundreds of years different environments will change your appearence.

Boat size... there weren't as many species as there are today. Plus, read the bible and the size conversions it gives. It was a pretty big boat.

Plants on the ark... no they would not have to carry every plant.

Yes they would have to have brought food.

Water... Um they were kinda on a flooded earth... plenty of water for ya there.

Yes there would be enough water to flood the earth. It says for forty days it rained and also water came up from the deep. i.e. underwater springs.

Animals getting from continent to continent..... Okay... when the animals got off the boat... they got their groove on, and on and on and on and on and on. And they spread out around the continents.

The fish you are talking about... Noah did not have to worry about fish since they were already in the water and when there is a flood there is just more water.

Originally posted by soleran30
There was a Noah's Ark "they" suspect although it wasn't like the Noah's Ark in the bible.......historically at least thats what National Geographic told me

It's only presumed to be Noah's Ark...The wood collected along with some other artifact type things dated way off to be the "Ark"...

Originally posted by Echuu
There's another Noah's Ark thread that covers most of what you are talking about. But...

Races... over hundreds of years different environments will change your appearence.

Boat size... there weren't as many species as there are today. Plus, read the bible and the size conversions it gives. It was a pretty big boat.

Plants on the ark... no they would not have to carry every plant.

Yes they would have to have brought food.

Water... Um they were kinda on a flooded earth... plenty of water for ya there.

Yes there would be enough water to flood the earth. It says for forty days it rained and also water came up from the deep. i.e. underwater springs.

Animals getting from continent to continent..... Okay... when the animals got off the boat... they got their groove on, and on and on and on and on and on. And they spread out around the continents.

The fish you are talking about... Noah did not have to worry about fish since they were already in the water and when there is a flood there is just more water.

Your missing the point, salt water kills fresh water fish.

They wouldnt be able to feed the meat eaters becuz the meat would spoil

They would have to bring every plant becuz all the plants would have died becuz of too much water. If you leave a plant under water for 40 days it will die.

There isnt enough water to flood the world. And the world cant flood for 40 days that scientifically impossble.

There was to as many species back then. But according to the bible every creature was made by god, not through evolution, so you just contradicted your self.

Races ummm people dont go from black to white over lets say ten thousand years, but maybe over millions of years they do.

The boat would have had to be at least a mile long to store every spieces and all the supplies. You cant just build a boat that big in a life time especially with such bad technologies.

Noah would have had to go to every continent and release every animal, which would mean he would be the first to discover the america's. Well lets see how come we didnt find the America's until the late 1400's again, did we just forget where it was? nope

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
Your missing the point, salt water kills fresh water fish.

They wouldnt be able to feed the meat eaters becuz the meat would spoil

They would have to bring every plant becuz all the plants would have died becuz of too much water. If you leave a plant under water for 40 days it will die.

There isnt enough water to flood the world. And the world cant flood for 40 days that scientifically impossble.

There was to as many species back then. But according to the bible every creature was made by god, not through evolution, so you just contradicted your self.

Races ummm people dont go from black to white over lets say ten thousand years, but maybe over millions of years they do.

The boat would have had to be at least a mile long to store every spieces and all the supplies. You cant just build a boat that big in a life time especially with such bad technologies.

Noah would have had to go to every continent and release every animal, which would mean he would be the first to discover the america's. Well lets see how come we didnt find the America's until the late 1400's again, did we just forget where it was? nope


God can do all things , he kept the lions from eating daniel , his abilities are out of our scope of what he can do. If you search hard enough you can always find reason to NOT believe something , its a thing of faith, do you believe God is ? if so do you believe the bible is truth of God ?
if so then the stories are true . your choice to believe or not ;

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
Your missing the point, salt water kills fresh water fish.

They wouldnt be able to feed the meat eaters becuz the meat would spoil

They would have to bring every plant becuz all the plants would have died becuz of too much water. If you leave a plant under water for 40 days it will die.

There isnt enough water to flood the world. And the world cant flood for 40 days that scientifically impossble.

There was to as many species back then. But according to the bible every creature was made by god, not through evolution, so you just contradicted your self.

Races ummm people dont go from black to white over lets say ten thousand years, but maybe over millions of years they do.

The boat would have had to be at least a mile long to store every spieces and all the supplies. You cant just build a boat that big in a life time especially with such bad technologies.

Noah would have had to go to every continent and release every animal, which would mean he would be the first to discover the america's. Well lets see how come we didnt find the America's until the late 1400's again, did we just forget where it was? nope

Um, if the salt was already there and the fish were already there? Plus you've heard of salmon right?

I know that the plants would die underwater... before God allowed the ark to be opened again he had them stay inside for a certain amount of time while Noah released a dove to see if there were signs of life yet.

Yes there would have been enough water to flood the earth. Water came from the skies AND from the deep... as in underwater springs and lakes... do you realize how huge some of those underwater springs could have been? Also; think about it storming and raining for 40 days straight across the entire planet.

How did I contradict myself??? There is something called inbreeding... notice how there are more species of dogs now than there were 2,000 years ago... I never mentioned anything about evolution.

Yes races can... think about how you can get a tan in a week(or even a couple days) and imagine being exposed to that for your entire life... I think that can cause some rapid changes.

Read the bible and its measurement conversions... also as I said... there weren't as many species. Ancient technology wasn't as bad as we think... The Roman Colosseum had an air conditioning system and primitive elevators. Also look at some of the ancient wonders of the world like the Pyramids or the Hanging gardens of Babylon or the Colossus in Rhodes.

Noah would NOT have had to go to every continent... What do you mean by 'forget where it was'? There were Native Americans already living here when Columbus discovered the 'New World.' The people and animals migrated when they left the ark. They did as God commanded and were 'fruitful and multiplied.'

and all the other fishes that aint salt water fish?

and then we go again with even if the boat was big, biggert than any other wooden boat in history, it wasnt big enough to host all the animals of this planet

and you get this from????

on a maretim basis it was

and they used comercial airlines to get to certain destinations or..............

What about all the insects, and penguins, and polar bears, and piranha (fresh water)...and barracuda's ouch!..fresh water...

Originally posted by finti
and all the other fishes that aint salt water fish?

and then we go again with even if the boat was big, biggert than any other wooden boat in history, it wasnt big enough to host all the animals of this planet

and you get this from????

on a maretim basis it was

and they used comercial airlines to get to certain destinations or..............

They adapted. Though I don't believe in the evolution that I was accused of in the previous post I do believe in micro evolution in which animals change slightly to adapt to their environment.

Yup and we are going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

Think about it. Do you really think there were the same amount of species today as there were 5,000 years ago?

God was also helping Noah to build the ark(not physically but through inspiration; he told Noah how to build it and Noah obeyed).

Oh that's right.... I kinda forgot about the tower of Babel as to how most people were spread about.

And yes they used commercial airliners built by Noah to get around.

animals dont adapt overnight though

many species have gone instinct and man have been able to "create" new "species" at least in the dog and cat family, and why shouldnt it been the same amount 5000 years ago????, 5000 years ago is that when you date the Noahs Ark event, cause 5000 years ago there were a very active wild life of animals in Norway and there is no evidence of them disappearing nor of the people who lived her either...........To put it simple there are no evidence that life here suddenly and abruptly disappeared, and for the sake of argument, if it did disappear dont you think it would take some time for that little family of Noah to reproduce (inbred misfits) so numberous amount of people that people started to migrate and settle parts of the world, how long do you think it was before mankind was large enough to start setteling the world after this so called biblical flood?

Originally posted by finti
animals dont adapt overnight though

many species have gone instinct and man have been able to "create" new "species" at least in the dog and cat family, and why shouldnt it been the same amount 5000 years ago????, 5000 years ago is that when you date the Noahs Ark event, cause 5000 years ago there were a very active wild life of animals in Norway and there is no evidence of them disappearing nor of the people who lived her either...........To put it simple there are no evidence that life here suddenly and abruptly disappeared, and for the sake of argument, if it did disappear dont you think it would take some time for that little family of Noah to reproduce (inbred misfits) so numberous amount of people that people started to migrate and settle parts of the world, how long do you think it was before mankind was large enough to start setteling the world after this so called biblical flood?

Nope definitely isn't overnight.

There weren't as many species of animals back then just as there weren't as many people living on the earth. It's common sense.

Norway? What's that got to do with anything? The people of Noah's time weren't living in Norway. They were living in the Middle East.
Also I don't remember what it's called but supposedly there is some instinct in humans for reproduction after large catastrophes which helps recover loss of life.

Anyways I do believe there are signs of the flood. They have found fossils of sea creatures on ridiculous places like mountaintops and so forth. My mother(farmer's daughter) when she was very young even found a shell of some sea creature on the farm which was in the middle of nowhere!

now why is it common sence that it was less spiecies when the population was low, the opposite would avtually be more common sence, the less people the more spiecies of animals

so you say the flood was limited to the middle east only?

the time to reproduce is the same regardless events..... 9 months + +

easily explained due to the fact that mountains is a product of movement of lithospheric plates, which simply explains that the rocks are forced upwards making mountains grow taller all the time

ever heard of the ice age well the comming and retraction of the ice glaciers brought with them stuff that belonged elsewhere

Originally posted by finti
now why is it common sence that it was less spiecies when the population was low, the opposite would avtually be more common sence, the less people the more spiecies of animals

so you say the flood was limited to the middle east only?

the time to reproduce is the same regardless events..... 9 months + +

easily explained due to the fact that mountains is a product of movement of lithospheric plates, which simply explains that the rocks are forced upwards making mountains grow taller all the time

ever heard of the ice age well the comming and retraction of the ice glaciers brought with them stuff that belonged elsewhere

'Created species' and the results of inbreeding would be less then than now.

I never said that. That is where Noah resided. I highly doubt that many, if any, people were living in Norway at the time of the flood.

Also easily explained that as the floodwaters receded sea creatures swimming in waters above the mountains got stuck on them and died.

Yes I have heard of the ice age... but I am not the most educated person on the subject; so if possible it would be nice for you to fill me in.

still it was plenty of different spices of all kinds back then and way too many to fit in the ark given the measurement of the bible
the entire Scandinavia was populated long before the time the christians date the so called flood.
Man followed the retractions of the glaciers from the last Ice age and settled the areas of Northern Europe, we have dugouts of settlements where I live that is dated to 8000 BC
maybe you should learn a bit more about it before throwing yourself into a discussion of this kind then, to put it simple the changing in the climate ended the last ice age ended around 10 000 years ago when ice sheets covered most of the European Continent and Northern America. The last 3 million years (the last ice age) the glacier have advanced and retreated on a cycle of 40- 100 000 years intervals, the last one as mention earlier retracted 10 000 years ago a retraction that formed much of the landscape of the Northern European Countries........this retraction led to new land for animals to live in and where the animals went humans followed.

Originally posted by finti
still it was plenty of different spices of all kinds back then and way too many to fit in the ark given the measurement of the bible
the entire Scandinavia was populated long before the time the christians date the so called flood.
Man followed the retractions of the glaciers from the last Ice age and settled the areas of Northern Europe, we have dugouts of settlements where I live that is dated to 8000 BC
maybe you should learn a bit more about it before throwing yourself into a discussion of this kind then, to put it simple the changing in the climate ended the last ice age ended around 10 000 years ago when ice sheets covered most of the European Continent and Northern America. The last 3 million years (the last ice age) the glacier have advanced and retreated on a cycle of 40- 100 000 years intervals, the last one as mention earlier retracted 10 000 years ago a retraction that formed much of the landscape of the Northern European Countries........this retraction led to new land for animals to live in and where the animals went humans followed.

Once again... have to agree to disagree

Maybe you should cut down on the run-on sentances and form paragraphs??? I was just asking for you to fill me in on the Ice Age because I didn't know the exact details.

The flood can actually account for the ice age also because of the rapid climate changes the earth experiences.

Also...carbon dating has its flaws.

For the settlements... just dugouts or human remains also?

Originally posted by Echuu
Once again... have to agree to disagree

Maybe you should cut down on the run-on sentances and form paragraphs??? I was just asking for you to fill me in on the Ice Age because I didn't know the exact details.

The flood can actually account for the ice age also because of the rapid climate changes the earth experiences.

Also...carbon dating has its flaws.

For the settlements... just dugouts or human remains also?

Every time carbon dating has been refined, the dates have gotten longer. So something they thought was 10,000 years old may end up being 20,000 years old.

Also, there is good evidence that the story of Gilgamesh ( http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/GILG.HTM ) was the origin of the Noah's ark story, and Gilgamesh may have taken place at the time of the Black Sea flood. http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/

Yeah I've heard of that before. Long story short it tries to explain the appearence and stories of a large flood in different cultures due to one flood in the Black Sea.

I would love to see you elaborate this.

you got a problem understanding them when they consist of more than 4 words?

Actually one doesnt need human remains to explain a settlement. The objects they found there is enough to tell humans lived there, but to answer your question yes they found human remains as well

Originally posted by finti
I would love to see you elaborate this.

you got a problem understanding them when they consist of more than 4 words?

Actually one doesnt need human remains to explain a settlement. The objects they found there is enough to tell humans lived there, but to answer your question yes they found human remains as well

Okay
Assuming the earth is flooded...as the waters receded the polar ice caps and other places of the world were frozen.
I could give you an article that explains it a bit better than I can if you'd like.

Actually I was being sarcastic.

Yes I know that. I was just curious because you said there was no evidence of the wildlife or people there disappearing. Has any archaeologists been able to come up with theories as to how they died?

how what died? as for this area nothing died or disappeared except those that went extinct due to hunting (certain species are very fragile and too many predators and no refugee will end their existence)

why didnt it freeze up before it started to recede

Originally posted by finti
how what died? as for this area nothing died or disappeared except those that went extinct due to hunting (certain species are very fragile and too many predators and no refugee will end their existence)

why didnt it freeze up before it started to recede

The people. Did they just die of old age or what?

The climate wasn't necessarily cold enough in certain areas but in some areas it was and the water did freeze before it started to recede. That could account for the glaciers you talked about in North America, other areas, and the polar ice caps.

you are so lost it aint even funny.................why dont yoy say what you think insteed of waht others try to think for you

Originally posted by finti
you are so lost it aint even funny.................why dont yoy say what you think insteed of waht others try to think for you

No I am actually coming up with theories on the effects of the biblical flood believe it or not.

And you still didn't answer me about the people.

what people????

Originally posted by finti
what people????

Oh my goodness... the people who lived during Noah's time in Norway! How did they die??? Did they die like any normal person would???

yes they died "ordinary" deaths, some by illness some by acidents some by age some by chance

Originally posted by finti
yes they died "ordinary" deaths, some by illness some by acidents some by age some by chance

Thank you.

Originally posted by Echuu
Nope definitely isn't overnight.

There weren't as many species of animals back then just as there weren't as many people living on the earth. It's common sense.

Norway? What's that got to do with anything? The people of Noah's time weren't living in Norway. They were living in the Middle East.
Also I don't remember what it's called but supposedly there is some instinct in humans for reproduction after large catastrophes which helps recover loss of life.

Anyways I do believe there are signs of the flood. They have found fossils of sea creatures on ridiculous places like mountaintops and so forth. My mother(farmer's daughter) when she was very young even found a shell of some sea creature on the farm which was in the middle of nowhere!

wow christians are dumb, fossils in mountains exist because those mountains used to be under the sea. if you look under the see you will find many mountains, some even taller than everest, also you will find volcanoes thanks to the tectonic plates.

and havent you ever thought hmm.....the floods happening were just happening in the middle east, and you think the millions of people (back then) would have fit in one concentrated area? look at rome the first to meet one million JUST one million, and it was crowded. now imagine those people in the middle east, over at least 100 million people.

also people dont just turn colors over thousands of years, sure you get a tan over a week, but if you gave birth to a baby when you had a tan does that mean the baby automatically get a tan? NO if that were true all the white people in california would have been black already.

and not to forget the amount of inbreeding that would happen would cause extinction of all species over 20 years. ever study the tazmanian devil? on the endangered list, so people resulted to breeding them, now breeding them in captivity caused the animals to eventually inbreed, this inbreeding cause no difference in genetic make up, no biological diversity, and you know what happened? the tazmanian devils bred in captivity were tracked and years later found to have these weird lumps on their nose, and those lumps were, drum roll please......cancer. You are telling me that noah plus his family made the 4 billion who live on earth today? just look at inbred people! physically strong, (somewhat) but mentally, not able to complete the tasks needed to. please dont try to use the evolution theory and say that your not using it, you are, just very very poorly.

forgive my grammatical errors just bare with it, this is a passionate argument for me, and i type really fast without checking my spelling mistakes or grammar

Originally posted by heckald
just look at inbred people! physically strong, (somewhat) but mentally, not able to complete the tasks needed to.

Inbreeding doesn't lead toward any specific result . . . it causes awful things in all sorts of different ways.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Inbreeding doesn't lead toward any specific result . . . it causes awful things in all sorts of different ways.

still bad, that was the point i was making

This is an easy question to answer. There may have been a boat. It may have had noah on it. It may have had his dog or cat or goat or w/e pet he had. There's no way he could physically make a boat large enough to hold every single animal on earth. It's also impossible for 4 people to repopulate the planet. Add in the fact that there are records of other civilizations existing during the time of which the world was supposedly flooded and only noah and his family lived, and the story of Noahs Ark has no credibility.

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
Im Christian just to let you know. But I come to the conclusion that Noah Ark could not have existed for a few reasons.....

Races there are people of different races all over the world such as White, Black, Native Americans, Asians, and many more how could we have had all the different races develop if only Noah and his familiy were on the Ark?
The Size of the Boat would have to tremendous in size bigger than any boat the world has ever known. The boat would have to carry all Mammals, Insects, Birds, Reptiles, and Fresh Water Fish. DO you know how many different types of Insects theyre, theyre 900000 types of different insects. Also they would have to carry every plant that is on earth, becuz when the earth floods salt water will go all over the land, and Salt Water kills plants. Also with it raining as much as it did the plants would get no sun light and die. Also whats to keep any of the animals from dieing becuz of sickness, becuz if they did die that spieces would be completely gone.
Also the amount of food they would have to bring would be enormous. They would have to bring much hay for the Herbivores. But heres where the strange part comes in, the meat eaters would have to have meat to eat, and meat would spoil before 40 days were over, so if this was true they couldnt of possibly fed the meat eaters. Then for the amount of water they would have to bring on board would be tremendous too. They would have to carry enough water for the animals and their selves which is impossible.
Another reason is there just isnt enough water in the world to flood the whole world. Also its not possible to rain for 40 days becuz the sun would have to come out to evaporate the water, becuz if it didnt there wouldnt be any rain clouds.
Also how in the world did the animals get on different continents? Did Noah sail to every continent, if he did he would have truly been the first person to find the America's instead of Columbus, but that is most likely not true. Also he would have had to go to every fresh watern lake, river, and stream to put the fresh water fish where they belong, becuz they cant just get there theyre selfs, and that would be journey that could not be made in a single life time. Also how did all the different races get on different continents, that just doesnt seem possible.

More reasons to come..... You're at the mental age of a 5 year old.

Don't worry, you're way ahead...Originally posted by mysparrow
God can do all things , he kept the lions from eating daniel , his abilities are out of our scope of what he can do. If you search hard enough you can always find reason to NOT believe something , its a thing of faith, do you believe God is ? if so do you believe the bible is truth of God ?
if so then the stories are true . your choice to believe or not ; him.

Originally posted by lord xyz
You're at the mental age of a 5 year old.

Don't worry, you're way ahead... him.

Besides a few things that the guy posted most of it was a valid argument, I don't understand what makes you say his mental age is 5.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Besides a few things that the guy posted most of it was a valid argument, I don't understand what makes you say his mental age is 5.

If I had to guess it was this:
Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
Im Christian

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If I had to guess it was this:
lol. i see

Originally posted by Echuu
There's another Noah's Ark thread that covers most of what you are talking about. But...

Races... over hundreds of years different environments will change your appearence.

Boat size... there weren't as many species as there are today. Plus, read the bible and the size conversions it gives. It was a pretty big boat.

Plants on the ark... no they would not have to carry every plant.

Yes they would have to have brought food.

Water... Um they were kinda on a flooded earth... plenty of water for ya there.

Yes there would be enough water to flood the earth. It says for forty days it rained and also water came up from the deep. i.e. underwater springs.

Animals getting from continent to continent..... Okay... when the animals got off the boat... they got their groove on, and on and on and on and on and on. And they spread out around the continents.

The fish you are talking about... Noah did not have to worry about fish since they were already in the water and when there is a flood there is just more water.

Are you actually retarded?

1: Races don't change over hundreds of years...they change over hundreds of thousands of years...

2: Actually there were more species then than there are now. Not less. Largely because of the human destruction of rainforests. This is known as the Holocene extinction event and is still ongoing now and is accelerating.

3: an elephant will eat roughly half a ton of food per day. 2 elephants means a ton...that's 40 tons...just for 1 species for 40 days.

There are roughly 1.5 million species on the earth now...Species are now disappearing at a rate of 140,000 PER YEAR.

4: No....There wouldn't be enough water to flood the earth because there's never been and never will be enough oxygen of hydrogen in the earth's atmosphere to make that much water.

In fact here's an interesting image...It shows what would happen if you took all the earth's water and suspended it in a ball above the planet.

http://subjunctive.net/klog/images/2009/global-water-and-air-volume.jpg

Even if it rained at the rate of the highest rainfall ever recorded and make that across the world...460 inches per year...that'd still only mean a rise of water levels, in 40 days, of 50 inches...a whole 4ft 2in

As for the point about fish...If the entire world was to flood then most of the fish in the world would die off because most are actually found in fresh water rather than salt (in terms of species) and fresh water fish cant survive in salt water or vice versa.

A lot of ancient religions have a kind of "flood" or "there was a sort of apocalypse and only the the special ones survived" story. Also, most of Christian "stories" are really parables. Like, a much earlier very of Aesop's Fables and/or Grimm's fairytales. Very short, often dramatic, always with a moral. So what could we get out of Noah's Ark?

"Dudes, pay attention to my laws and such or I'll turn you into a flea, a harmless little flea. And then I'll put it in a box, and put that box in another box, then mail it to myself, and when it arrives... AHAHA!!! I'll smash it with a HAMMAH!!! Or, to save on postage, I'll just send a giant flood and drown everybody except the fish because they already swim and and no one else will build a boat or anything."

Or something simpler, like,
"Obey me, even if what I ask sounds very silly. If you disobey, you'll look even sillier."

Whatevs. If you're interested, you should check out other flood myths and check to see what they have in common.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
A lot of ancient religions have a kind of "flood" or "there was a sort of apocalypse and only the the special ones survived" story. Also, most of Christian "stories" are really parables. Like, a much earlier very of Aesop's Fables and/or Grimm's fairytales. Very short, often dramatic, always with a moral. So what could we get out of Noah's Ark?

"Dudes, pay attention to my laws and such or I'll turn you into a flea, a harmless little flea. And then I'll put it in a box, and put that box in another box, then mail it to myself, and when it arrives... AHAHA!!! I'll smash it with a HAMMAH!!! Or, to save on postage, I'll just send a giant flood and drown everybody except the fish because they already swim and and no one else will build a boat or anything."

Or something simpler, like,
"Obey me, even if what I ask sounds very silly. If you disobey, you'll look even sillier."

Whatevs. If you're interested, you should check out other flood myths and check to see what they have in common.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)

Moral of the story is that there wasn't a great flood caused by a God. People just thought that b/c they kept finding sea shells and fish fossils on the mainland making them assume there had been a great flood.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(mythology)

Moral of the story is that there wasn't a great flood caused by a God. People just thought that b/c they kept finding sea shells and fish fossils on the mainland making them assume there had been a great flood.

Whay, thank you for bringing support to a mostly rambling argument.

Originally posted by siriuswriter
Whay, thank you for bringing support to a mostly rambling argument.


:-D it's what I'm here for!

yay atheists win

Edit: Wrong thread.

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
Even though Im christian in my heart I know God doesnt exist. If he did exist he wouldnt allow any people die from unnatural reasons, such as being shot and killed.

lol then get out of your Religion. God lets his children decide what to do. He isnt going to stop them from that. He isnt going to force us to do what it right we have to decide that on our own

Originally posted by JediMasterLuke5
Even though Im christian in my heart I know God doesnt exist. If he did exist he wouldnt allow any people die from unnatural reasons, such as being shot and killed.

Bad things happen, thus God doesn't exist? That isn't a particularly sensible argument.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Bad things happen, thus God doesn't exist? That isn't a particularly sensible argument.

Agreed. Get some better arguments against God, then leave. Because "Bad things happen, ergo atheism" is just silly. It also always kinda irked me that such arguments, which aren't uncommon, equate evil with atheism. It's a false correlation.

Yea I don't think I'm evil and I'm an atheist. But yea thinking God doesn't exist because bad things happen isn't a great argument. Thinking the Judeo-Christian version of God doesn't exist because bad things happen is a 1/2 right assumption. The God that most people make him out to be as all caring and whatnot couldn't possibly exist if you take in the current state of our world. I would rather argue that God doesn't exist because the whole notion of a magical being making things out of nothing is kinda crazy. Believing that the matter in the Universe has always existed seems more feasible. But back to the topic at hand, it's not physically possible to make an arc containing 2 of each creatures on earth. Add in the fact that all plant life would've died but somehow lived and it becomes less likely. Unless of course what they meant by 2 of everything was that Noah had a DNA sample, and his ark was a spaceship, then we can come to the conclusion God is an alien. So in closing, God is an alien, Noah made a new world out of DNA samples, and his ark was an advanced spacecraft the alien made for him.

Did you just talk yourself into being a Scientologist?

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Yea I don't think I'm evil and I'm an atheist. But yea thinking God doesn't exist because bad things happen isn't a great argument. Thinking the Judeo-Christian version of God doesn't exist because bad things happen is a 1/2 right assumption. The God that most people make him out to be as all caring and whatnot couldn't possibly exist if you take in the current state of our world. I would rather argue that God doesn't exist because the whole notion of a magical being making things out of nothing is kinda crazy. Believing that the matter in the Universe has always existed seems more feasible. But back to the topic at hand, it's not physically possible to make an arc containing 2 of each creatures on earth. Add in the fact that all plant life would've died but somehow lived and it becomes less likely. Unless of course what they meant by 2 of everything was that Noah had a DNA sample, and his ark was a spaceship, then we can come to the conclusion God is an alien. So in closing, God is an alien, Noah made a new world out of DNA samples, and his ark was an advanced spacecraft the alien made for him.

lol clever... We dont know how Noah would have gotten all the animals of the earth on that boat. But I believe that if God gives you a task he will prepare the way and that he will make it happen. So none the less Noah did it.

Originally posted by Tonks
lol clever... We dont know how Noah would have gotten all the animals of the earth on that boat. But I believe that if God gives you a task he will prepare the way and that he will make it happen. So none the less Noah did it.

However, definitions are what really matters in this story. For example, the world; at the time when the bible was written, people had no concept of the world as a planet in space. If you didn't know what was beyond your local valley, then the world would be your local valley. If that valley flooded, then the world flooded. 8,000 years ago the Black Sea was much lower then it is today. At about that time, the Mediterranean Sea flooded into the Black Sea. If you lived on the shore of the Black Sea, then you would think that the "world" was flooding.

yeah I see your point and I often think about that. But they say that Noah landed at a different place then he left at.

Originally posted by Tonks
yeah I see your point and I often think about that. But they say that Noah landed at a different place then he left at.

However, the names of places have changed over time.

true and also the Continents of the world have changed too. We may never know

this is silly. we do know that it would have been 100% impossible for Noah to have every animal on the planet on an ark. He would not be able to build one large enough nor would he be able to store the food each needed. Also all the fresh water sea creatures would have died as well as the vast majority of plant life on earth. So barring some magical interference it would not have been possible. Also being as there isn't any actual evidence that it occurred there's no reason to believe in it.

noah's ark could go from 0-100 knots in 3.7 seconds!

3.6

During a flood, while it was raining.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
So barring some magical interference

you mean like, God?

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
this is silly. we do know that it would have been 100% impossible for Noah to have every animal on the planet on an ark. He would not be able to build one large enough nor would he be able to store the food each needed. Also all the fresh water sea creatures would have died as well as the vast majority of plant life on earth. So barring some magical interference it would not have been possible. Also being as there isn't any actual evidence that it occurred there's no reason to believe in it.

Well God gave him that task to do. And I believe that if God gives someone a task he will open the way up. Therefore making it possible.

Course it didn't happen.

Originally posted by Tonks
Well God gave him that task to do. And I believe that if God gives someone a task he will open the way up. Therefore making it possible.

In a magical world anything is possible.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
In a magical world anything is possible. Good thing this isn't a magical world then.

I am not a big Bible reader but didn't God say he would leave the fairs of humans alone after Adam and Eve, or something like that?

Originally posted by Kinkin
Good thing this isn't a magical world then.

I am not a big Bible reader but didn't God say he would leave the fairs of humans alone after Adam and Eve, or something like that?

If he did, the rest of the bible sort of shows how faithful he was to that stance.

Its been a while I guess I remember it wrong,

I tried reading it once for the stories but reading it all, I gave up after a few pages if I remember right.

If I read it for 2 hours every day, roughly how long would it take me to read it ya think?

Originally posted by Tonks
Well God gave him that task to do. And I believe that if God gives someone a task he will open the way up. Therefore making it possible.

gasp!!!!!!!!!!! so THATS how penetration happened!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Kinkin
Its been a while I guess I remember it wrong,

I tried reading it once for the stories but reading it all, I gave up after a few pages if I remember right.

the point is that after genesis, the first story in the bible about adam and eve, God essentially plays a major role in the lives of humans in every other story of the OT.

Originally posted by Kinkin
If I read it for 2 hours every day, roughly how long would it take me to read it ya think?

no idea, never read it.

Originally posted by Tonks
Well God gave him that task to do. And I believe that if God gives someone a task he will open the way up. Therefore making it possible.
The problem with that is that God has done nothing in recent history that would lead anyone to believe he was real. Are we to believe that in the 2009 years since jesus' death there hasn't been anything worth getting involved in for God? Even in the past 100 years nothing has happened that God has wanted to get involved in? Yet back in the day he would get involved in all sorts of random, trivial stuff? Either God is someone who intervenes, or he's someone who doesn't.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
The problem with that is that God has done nothing in recent history that would lead anyone to believe he was real. Are we to believe that in the 2009 years since jesus' death there hasn't been anything worth getting involved in for God? Even in the past 100 years nothing has happened that God has wanted to get involved in? Yet back in the day he would get involved in all sorts of random, trivial stuff? Either God is someone who intervenes, or he's someone who doesn't.

Well I am not going to argue with you on that one. I believe that he has intervened in the past 100 years. The only reason that it looks like he intervened is because you have a whole history (The Bible) that gives testimony of it. You are looking at today but you dont see it the same.

Originally posted by Tonks
Well I am not going to argue with you on that one. I believe that he has intervened in the past 100 years. The only reason that it looks like he intervened is because you have a whole history (The Bible) that gives testimony of it. You are looking at today but you dont see it the same.
Yea but the Bible was written about 300 years after the events it details supposedly happened. So we have the fact that no one really knows if anything in the bible is true, more than likely it's not. Stories tend to get changed and embellished when past around to 3 or 4 people, let alone thousands of people over 300 years. Now that we have proper ways of documenting events there have been none to document. That further leads me to believe that nothing written in the bible happened anyway near like it's recorded. If it had at least been written a year or so after the events it would be at least marginally more believable. And the reason we don't see things the same today is because we can explain events with science. Science wasn't around back in the time of the Bible so if something happened they didn't understand they assumed it was magic. It's like the Native Americans old belief that if you took their picture it stole their soul. They know it's not true, but they firmly believed it then.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Yea but the Bible was written about 300 years after the events it details supposedly happened. So we have the fact that no one really knows if anything in the bible is true, more than likely it's not. Stories tend to get changed and embellished when past around to 3 or 4 people, let alone thousands of people over 300 years. Now that we have proper ways of documenting events there have been none to document. That further leads me to believe that nothing written in the bible happened anyway near like it's recorded. If it had at least been written a year or so after the events it would be at least marginally more believable. And the reason we don't see things the same today is because we can explain events with science. Science wasn't around back in the time of the Bible so if something happened they didn't understand they assumed it was magic. It's like the Native Americans old belief that if you took their picture it stole their soul. They know it's not true, but they firmly believed it then.

It's best not assume something based on how you view reality today. Reading the Bible I do notice a clear change in the way God operates. In Genesis and the books of Moses he's very visible, all through to the Judges and books of the major prophets, but as we wind down to the NT we see a less visible God, appearing in dreams etc. The Bible describes the latter generations as "those who believe without seeing", essentially as we go further the rules change, belief becomes more and more dependent on faith.

There are some who still claim to witness miracles and other otherworldly occurrences, what is true or not, is ultimately up to an individual; even within the "magical" ages of the Bible this was the case.

Originally posted by Allankles
It's best not assume something based on how you view reality today. Reading the Bible I do notice a clear change in the way God operates. In Genesis and the books of Moses he's very visible, all through to the Judges and books of the major prophets, but as we wind down to the NT we see a less visible God, appearing in dreams etc. The Bible describes the latter generations as "those who believe without seeing", essentially as we go further the rules change, belief becomes more and more dependent on faith.

There are some who still claim to witness miracles and other otherworldly occurrences, what is true or not, is ultimately up to an individual; even within the "magical" ages of the Bible this was the case.
So basically the bible sets itself up to be less provable as time goes on? And that doesn't seem suspicious to anyone? Seriously? You all never took a moment to assume the writers of the Bible put all that in there to explain why we didn't see anything magical happening now a days?

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
So basically the bible sets itself up to be less provable as time goes on? And that doesn't seem suspicious to anyone? Seriously? You all never took a moment to assume the writers of the Bible put all that in there to explain why we didn't see anything magical happening now a days?

It is simpler then that. People make up connections that were not placed there by the writers. They connect books that are separated by time and culture. On top of that, translations have distorted the meaning. Humans are inventive, and have great imaginations. However, they begin to believe the fantasies, and over time the bible was tweaked a little here and a little there, to make a better picture.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is simpler then that. People make up connections that were not placed there by the writers. They connect books that are separated by time and culture. On top of that, translations have distorted the meaning. Humans are inventive, and have great imaginations. However, they begin to believe the fantasies, and over time the bible was tweaked a little here and a little there, to make a better picture.

More generalizations? Do you believe or not? (Rhotirical)

The Bible claims to be the word of God narrated through a specific people who were chosen not because they were special but to honor a covenant God made with one righteous man. It's easy to say it's fantasy (and any rational man will accept scepticism) but don't preach scepticism as fact.

I can rationalize God, and maintain some scepticism, this is not the same for everyone but I don't like seeing generalizations being peddled.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
So basically the bible sets itself up to be less provable as time goes on? And that doesn't seem suspicious to anyone? Seriously? You all never took a moment to assume the writers of the Bible put all that in there to explain why we didn't see anything magical happening now a days?

First of all there's no "magic" to be witnessed. If you program a function into a computer that is triggered by the input of a certain word, does it become magic? It is the same with the natural world, nothing of God in the Bible is conjured through any sort of magic.

From the first book in the Bible God wishes that mankind achieves righteousness. This can only be achieved by choice. Adam & Eve are offered this choice to obey or not. Every generation is faced with the issue of righteousness in keeping with their time.

Even in those "magical" days few people ever witnessed a visible God, why would it be different today? Many in our age claim meetings with angelic beings. There are some stories about people rising from the morgue after meetings with Jesus.

I can accept mundane theories for such events (if there're any) but I like to be aware that we each play only a small role in the entirety of reality, and our information is derived from limited sources.

Originally posted by Allankles
More generalizations? Do you believe or not? (Rhotirical)

The Bible claims to be the word of God narrated through a specific people who were chosen not because they were special but to honor a covenant God made with one righteous man. It's easy to say it's fantasy (and any rational man will accept scepticism) but don't preach scepticism as fact.

I can rationalize God, and maintain some scepticism, this is not the same for everyone but I don't like seeing generalizations being peddled.

Generalizations? Are you not the one using generalizations? You "speak" as if the bible was the only book on the Earth to claim its self to be the "word of god"! What about the Koran? It claims to be the word of god. Or other books that claims to be magical?

It seems to me that if someone wanted to legitimize them self, then just claim that what you are saying is from god, or gods. No one can question god, therefore no one can question you.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Generalizations? Are you not the one using generalizations? You "speak" as if the bible was the only book on the Earth to claim its self to be the "word of god"! What about the Koran? It claims to be the word of god. Or other books that claims to be magical?

It seems to me that if someone wanted to legitimize them self, then just claim that what you are saying is from god, or gods. No one can question god, therefore no one can question you.

I said it claimed to be the word of God. The Koran's traces its origin with the Bible, only it accepts Muhammed as its chief prophet and doesn't acknowledge the trinity of God.

It's also influenced by Arabic traditions, the first being the name "Allah" which may well have been an ancient Arabic moon god.

And the Bible is not magical. I don't see anything magical, about healing or creation. Is dark matter magic? Are any of the universal forces magic?

Originally posted by Allankles
I said it claimed to be the word of God. The Koran's traces its origin with the Bible, only it accepts Muhammed as its chief prophet and doesn't acknowledge the trinity of God.

It's also influenced by Arabic traditions, the first being the name "Allah" which may well have been an ancient Arabic moon god.

And the Bible is not magical. I don't see anything magical, about healing or creation. Is dark matter magic? Are any of the universal forces magic?

If you are offended by the word "magic" then you can use supernatural.

There is no magic or supernatural in nature. Only in the minds of humans does such fantasy exist.

The bible was written by humans. It is a mix of history, fiction, and letters.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
If you are offended by the word "magic" then you can use supernatural.

There is no magic or supernatural in nature. Only in the minds of humans does such fantasy exist.

The bible was written by humans. It is a mix of history, fiction, and letters.

So certain. I've nothing to counter people's beliefs.

Originally posted by Allankles
First of all there's no "magic" to be witnessed. If you program a function into a computer that is triggered by the input of a certain word, does it become magic? It is the same with the natural world, nothing of God in the Bible is conjured through any sort of magic.

From the first book in the Bible God wishes that mankind achieves righteousness. This can only be achieved by choice. Adam & Eve are offered this choice to obey or not. Every generation is faced with the issue of righteousness in keeping with their time.

Even in those "magical" days few people ever witnessed a visible God, why would it be different today? Many in our age claim meetings with angelic beings. There are some stories about people rising from the morgue after meetings with Jesus.

I can accept mundane theories for such events (if there're any) but I like to be aware that we each play only a small role in the entirety of reality, and our information is derived from limited sources.
Comparing computer programming to making stuff out of thin air is an asinine comparison. If you had never seen a computer before and didn't know what it was and had no idea about technology it might seem magical. But anyone who isn't ignorant to modern technology find computers magical. How is nothing God conjures done magically? He made a woman from a rib....and it didn't say he did it through gene splicing and cloning. So that pretty much leaves magic. Or are you trying to argue that because it's God it's not magic? Either way that's just dumb. And a few people witnessed "God" back in the day and so the rest of you based a religion off of it? As far as your claim of miracles still happening now a days....do you have any proof? Has there been any recorded evidence of an actual miracle in recent history? Has God flooded the world, caused plagues of locust, put magical tablets in the palm of anyones hands and destroyed cities? Last I checked no. As far as your comment about our information being from a limited source...that's true. Even more so in apparently your case being as you base your information on a book that was written thousands of years ago by someone who didn't even know what the sun was or what thunder and lightning were... Please broaden your horizons before trying to have a debate trying to use logic. You can't apply logic to magic without disproving magic (and yes the stuff God did would be consider magic).

*shrugs* Maybe on a local/regional level

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
He made a woman from a rib....and it didn't say he did it through gene splicing and cloning. So that pretty much leaves magic.

Actually that still leaves gene splicing and cloning.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Actually that still leaves gene splicing and cloning.
Not unless you think God was an alien.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Not unless you think God was an alien.

Not really.


Lets apply elementary logic to your statement via analogy.

I travel a great distance and don't say I walked. Does this mean I teleported? Does this mean I walked? Does this mean I drove?

It doesn't mean any of those. I only means that you don't know.

You know, if you want to be a rationalist that's really the sort of thing you ought to understand with barely any thought.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Comparing computer programming to making stuff out of thin air is an asinine comparison. If you had never seen a computer before and didn't know what it was and had no idea about technology it might seem magical. But anyone who isn't ignorant to modern technology find computers magical. How is nothing God conjures done magically? He made a woman from a rib....and it didn't say he did it through gene splicing and cloning. So that pretty much leaves magic. Or are you trying to argue that because it's God it's not magic? Either way that's just dumb. And a few people witnessed "God" back in the day and so the rest of you based a religion off of it? As far as your claim of miracles still happening now a days....do you have any proof? Has there been any recorded evidence of an actual miracle in recent history? Has God flooded the world, caused plagues of locust, put magical tablets in the palm of anyones hands and destroyed cities? Last I checked no. As far as your comment about our information being from a limited source...that's true. Even more so in apparently your case being as you base your information on a book that was written thousands of years ago by someone who didn't even know what the sun was or what thunder and lightning were... Please broaden your horizons before trying to have a debate trying to use logic. You can't apply logic to magic without disproving magic (and yes the stuff God did would be consider magic).

Your understanding is the one that seems limited. You speak of imagination without realizing the mind is in itself a microcosm of the idea of supernatural.

Your mind can create scenarios and go places you body cannot follow, until some one makes an automobile and then an airplane and then a space shuttle, and who knows a vehicle that can traverse time itself and then maybe the boundaries of reality themselves.

Point is you're reasoning is very very basic. I used the computer reference to try and make you invision nature and its many forces working as a conduit for God in the Bible, the same way a computer works as a conduit for a persons thoughts, mechanical process, etc etc.

Referencing gene splicing again is a very limited way of perceiving these things. Our bodies are not even designed by human beings, who's to say that we couldn't have been silicon based organisms? Gene splicing is reasoning based on the product of creation, not the idea of creation itself. You forget we observe only what has already been made to exist.

You call it magic, I call it using his tools.

Originally posted by Allankles
So certain. I've nothing to counter people's beliefs.

Not belief; opinion. It is my opinion based on having been raised as a Christian.

Originally posted by Allankles
Your understanding is the one that seems limited. You speak of imagination without realizing the mind is in itself a microcosm of the idea of supernatural.

Your mind can create scenarios and go places you body cannot follow, until some one makes an automobile and then an airplane and then a space shuttle, and who knows a vehicle that can traverse time itself and then maybe the boundaries of reality themselves.

Point is you're reasoning is very very basic. I used the computer reference to try and make you invision nature and its many forces working as a conduit for God in the Bible, the same way a computer works as a conduit for a persons thoughts, mechanical process, etc etc.

Referencing gene splicing again is a very limited way of perceiving these things. Our bodies are not even designed by human beings, who's to say that we couldn't have been silicon based organisms? Gene splicing is reasoning based on the product of creation, not the idea of creation itself. You forget we observe only what has already been made to exist.

You call it magic, I call it using his tools.

"His"? A god that is a male is limited.

Human imagination is the key. That is the only force behind the tool, as you put it.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
"His"? A god that is a male is limited.

Human imagination is the key. That is the only force behind the tool, as you put it.

There are many more forces than human imagination. Human imagination is a product of this universe, yet within it the laws of the natural world are overcome.

There's nothing new under the sun, what appears like a novel imagining is probably founded on something that already was. Many generations think themselves superior to the previous "less enlightened" generation.

Yet war persists, the tools of destruction more devastating, we haven't changed much and everything we have we owe to those who came before. The ancient world had medical science, it had civilizations where complex surgery involving even the brain were practiced.

Zenkai told me to think more broadly, this is exactly what thinking broadly is, I don't allow myself to be trapped by one perspective or another.

Originally posted by Allankles
There are many more forces than human imagination. Human imagination is a product of this universe, yet within it the laws of the natural world are overcome.

There's nothing new under the sun, what appears like a novel imagining is probably founded on something that already was. Many generations think themselves superior to the previous "less enlightened" generation.

Yet war persists, the tools of destruction more devastating, we haven't changed much and everything we have we owe to those who came before. The ancient world had medical science, it had civilizations where complex surgery involving even the brain were practiced.

Zenkai told me to think more broadly, this is exactly what thinking broadly is, I don't allow myself to be trapped by one perspective or another.

The laws of physics cannot be overcome by the mind.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Not really.


Lets apply elementary logic to your statement via analogy.

I travel a great distance and don't say I walked. Does this mean I teleported? Does this mean I walked? Does this mean I drove?

It doesn't mean any of those. I only means that you don't know.

You know, if you want to be a rationalist that's really the sort of thing you ought to understand with barely any thought.
lol so wait, you're trying to explain to me that God created everything out of nothing but he did it in a way that wasn't magical? And that he himself has always existed and always will but that it's not magic? I'm using logic, you're using your imagination. Logically God couldn't have created everything or have always existed as an intelligent being. How do we know this? Because physics tells us so. Trying to rationalize what happens in the Bible by saying it wasn't magic, and it wasn't science, it was just something else isn't a rational argument at all. Prove the world started from something else. The Bible doesn't try and make it out as if God created everything by any other means other than some magical way. Maybe you don't know what magical means? If science says that the way the Bible says things happens is wrong, then why are we to assume otherwise? And yes, science does state that we weren't made from two people, that there are no super powerful incorporeal beings, and all that. It amazes me the amount of basic understanding so many lack

Originally posted by Allankles
Your understanding is the one that seems limited. You speak of imagination without realizing the mind is in itself a microcosm of the idea of supernatural.

Your mind can create scenarios and go places you body cannot follow, until some one makes an automobile and then an airplane and then a space shuttle, and who knows a vehicle that can traverse time itself and then maybe the boundaries of reality themselves.

Point is you're reasoning is very very basic. I used the computer reference to try and make you invision nature and its many forces working as a conduit for God in the Bible, the same way a computer works as a conduit for a persons thoughts, mechanical process, etc etc.

Referencing gene splicing again is a very limited way of perceiving these things. Our bodies are not even designed by human beings, who's to say that we couldn't have been silicon based organisms? Gene splicing is reasoning based on the product of creation, not the idea of creation itself. You forget we observe only what has already been made to exist.

You call it magic, I call it using his tools.

You realize that your entire thing here doesn't make any sense right? Your talking about imagination being able to do things that the body cant until we make things with our imagination? That still doesn't make anything magical. You do realize how the human brain works right? It's not some magical influence. There's scientific reasons for thoughts and imagination. My reasoning is basic? My reasoning is logical. It's based on evidence. It doesn't need to be amazing and complex because it's based on simple proven fact. Your reasoning only seems complex because you have to invent new things and new reasons as to why things happen or have happened. And yes we do only observe what has already been made to exist. We can't observe something if it doesn't exist. I must be missing your point....or you don't have any actual clue of what you're talking about...huhm...i wonder which one it is..

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
You realize that your entire thing here doesn't make any sense right? Your talking about imagination being able to do things that the body cant until we make things with our imagination? That still doesn't make anything magical. You do realize how the human brain works right? It's not some magical influence. There's scientific reasons for thoughts and imagination. My reasoning is basic? My reasoning is logical. It's based on evidence. It doesn't need to be amazing and complex because it's based on simple proven fact. Your reasoning only seems complex because you have to invent new things and new reasons as to why things happen or have happened. And yes we do only observe what has already been made to exist. We can't observe something if it doesn't exist. I must be missing your point....or you don't have any actual clue of what you're talking about...huhm...i wonder which one it is..

I know how the mind works, but even in the mind we find a myriad of questions that your basic reasoning doesn't even touch. If Earth is the only celestial body that houses life, ask yourself what purpose the universe would have for life?why would the universe make life and fit it with the tools to make sentience? even sapience (in our case)? unless the universe itself is possessed of a sentience of its own?

People use words like "evolution" without considering its precedence. Why would the universe spawn a planet that contained the building blocks of life? unless life represent something far more profound, its existence caused into being by something that was already living.

Ponder your reality, and ask of the meaning of life.

I hear people like Dawkins mentioning how we are yet primitive, doesn't he realize how unique life is? How can we be primitive when there's no precedence for life? for humanity?

Your questions only touch at the after effects of the initial cause. You look at our carbon based forms and make assertions based on our as yet limited capacity to affect the natural world. But you're sentient, sapient you have been given the gift to observe the wider universe, yet you spend that gift contemplating on what is, without marvelling at the "why" and "how".

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The laws of physics cannot be overcome by the mind.

Which laws of physics? I conjure up anything I wish within the recesses of my mind, yet everything I think is based on things that have existed.

Whitchraft, dragons, leprechauns all of these things have existed in our planet in one form or another. The imagination treads on what has already been, dinosaurs, witch doctors etc etc

Originally posted by Allankles
Which laws of physics? I conjure up anything I wish within the recesses of my mind, yet everything I think is based on things that have existed.

Whitchraft, dragons, leprechauns all of these things have existed in our planet in one form or another. The imagination treads on what has already been, dinosaurs, witch doctors etc etc

For example: Place your hand on a table, then have someone who hates you hit your hand with a hammer. Try as you might imagine the hammer passing through your hand, the truth is the hammer will smash the bones.

Originally posted by Allankles
Which laws of physics? I conjure up anything I wish within the recesses of my mind, yet everything I think is based on things that have existed.

Whitchraft, dragons, leprechauns all of these things have existed in our planet in one form or another. The imagination treads on what has already been, dinosaurs, witch doctors etc etc
So you're saying people can't think of new things? That everything is based on something that existed? Do you know nothing about history? Or about sociology and psychology? That's like saying theoretical physicist only ever have theories about things they see here on earth.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
So you're saying people can't think of new things? That everything is based on something that existed? Do you know nothing about history? Or about sociology and psychology? That's like saying theoretical physicist only ever have theories about things they see here on earth.

I'd like you to explain how the brain is able to produce information that is unrelated to anything it has experienced

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
So you're saying people can't think of new things? That everything is based on something that existed? Do you know nothing about history? Or about sociology and psychology? That's like saying theoretical physicist only ever have theories about things they see here on earth.

What's difficult to understand? Isn't our scientific knowledge influenced by the books and works of men and women that came before us? Theories based on observable/experimental phenomena; on what was always there?

"New" knowledge has reference to something that already was.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
For example: Place your hand on a table, then have someone who hates you hit your hand with a hammer. Try as you might imagine the hammer passing through your hand, the truth is the hammer will smash the bones.

I don't expect the hammer to pass through me but it can in my mind, there's a place where my hand can be intangible. Why do people make so light of their thoughts? They are a corner of existence on their own.

Originally posted by Allankles
I don't expect the hammer to pass through me but it can in my mind, there's a place where my hand can be intangible. Why do people make so light of their thoughts? They are a corner of existence on their own.
Thought world doesn't change real world. You can think noah could have fit 2 of every creature on earth on his ark, but it isn't technically possible.

Originally posted by Allankles
I don't expect the hammer to pass through me but it can in my mind, there's a place where my hand can be intangible. Why do people make so light of their thoughts? They are a corner of existence on their own.

I know what you are thinking. String theory allows for the possibility, but the power of the mind does not work that way. The mind cannot make the hammer pass through it. What the mind does is move the hand. It's far more efficient and is useful in alluding a predator. Evolution does not favor the supernatural.

Originally posted by LDHZenkai
Thought world doesn't change real world. You can think noah could have fit 2 of every creature on earth on his ark, but it isn't technically possible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masaru_Emoto

(Scientifically dubious but cool nonetheless.)