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The United Federation of Planets have quantum torpedoes, which can literally vaporize 100km wide asteroids while the most powerful Imperial turbolasers can only fragment a 25m wide asteroid.

No. No. No. Galactic Empire curbstomps them. Also, don't make threads in which you (think) you know the answer, and try to use fauly information to sway us.

I know a most neutral site about that, from which I take my data away: st-v-sw.net

First off:
1)A single ISD can glass a planet.
2) The Galactic Empire can destroy galaxies (galaxy gun), planets (death star), and has force users. What does the UFP have that is anywhere NEAR that? Even if it did, would they use it?

BTW:
In both cases, the filmed live-action material is the absolute canon. This means that Star Trek has four complete series worth of canon, with a fifth series (Star Trek: Enterprise) in production. There are also the ten motion pictures. Paramount has also stated that the Star Trek novels of Jeri Taylor are canon.

That is it. Thus, no FASA, no novels, no Technical Manuals, no Chronology, no unlicensed fan materials . . . no nothing.

Star Wars canon is a little different. The movies are absolute canon, but the scripts and novelisations of the movies are also considered a lesser part of the canon. Also considered are the Star Wars radio plays broadcast on National Public Radio, but to a far lesser degree.

That is it. Thus, no WEG, no novels, no tech manuals, no games . . . no nothing. The Expanded Universe is, as per Lucas, part of a "parallel universe", with a separate history and a divergent future from what is seen in his films.

DIRECT QUOTE

In that case, your looking at maybe just a single fleet, not even that probably, and without the ISD's using their full potential. If you want a full powered (aka REAL) debate about this, then the EU MUST be considered.

The thaleron emitter! It's a Death Star-like weapon, in the way it can destroy a planet.

Are you some type of ****ing retard? That's not a UFP weapon. BTW, that wouldn't even have an effect on ISD's, as they are not organic tissue. ISD's are made of metal. Metal isn't organic.

Actually, it would take the entire payload of the USS Enterprise to destroy an asteroid, the same of which would be vaporized in under a second by the medium sized guns (omitting the larger ones)of a Star Destroyer, which can fire at a sustained a rate of plus thirty a minute.

The Death Star, the first one (Which is the weakest of the Superweapon class) can destroy a shielded planet in about 1/16th of a second. This begs for firepower beyond your wildest dreams. Nothing in Star Trek compares with this.

Then, the Doomsday device. You're talking about the old Enterprise. I know what the Enterprise-E is capable of.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
The United Federation of Planets have quantum torpedoes, which can literally vaporize 100km wide asteroids while the most powerful Imperial turbolasers can only fragment a 25m wide asteroid.
...

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
Then, the Doomsday device. You're talking about the old Enterprise. I know what the Enterprise-E is capable of.
Then enlighten us, oh magnificent one.

You just guessed that thaleron emitters might leave an ISD crewless.

Since fragmentation and vaporization would make no visual difference, I'd go for the fragmentation of said asteroid. Because an ISD's shields are usually for 450,000 TJ capacity (one shot of dorsal turbolasers per second during 30 minutes brought the shields down in ROTJ). If the 3,000 TJ figure is taken, etc.

Shield power:

1 shot per second: 250 TJ per second

250 TJ*1800seconds: 450,000 TJ

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
Since fragmentation and vaporization would make no visual difference, I'd go for the fragmentation of said asteroid. Because an ISD's shields are usually for 450,000 TJ capacity (one shot of dorsal turbolasers per second during 30 minutes brought the shields down in ROTJ). If the 3,000 TJ figure is taken, etc.

Shield power:

1 shot per second: 250 TJ per second

250 TJ*1800seconds: 450,000 TJ

lol! Nice... opt for the lowest possible result and than bank evidence on it.

And about those shields? Star Destroyers were able to survive half an hour of ship to ship battle with Mon Calamari battlecruisers in the Battle of Endor before they started to lose shielding. If we assume roughly one Star Destroyer per Mon Calamari cruiser and ignore fighters (in spite of the fact that they were carrying thermonuclear weapons), we can estimate that a Star Destroyer can survive many thousands of shots before shield failure. In the opening scene of ANH a Star Destroyer is seen firing roughly 25 shots in 5 seconds, for a time-averaged refire rate of 5 shots per second. Each shot carries at least 1.5E15 joules of energy, and around 1E17 joules of energy if set to maximum power. If similar fire rates occured in the Endor battle (note that we are disregarding the heavy turbolasers which would increase the estimate by an order of magnitude), this means that the energy capacity of a Star Destroyer's shields is between 1.4E19 and 9E20 joules, so 1E20 joules (24,000 megatons) is a reasonable estimate.

Bring the power of the shot down to 2,5E14 joules but keep the same firing rate, even then, it would give 535,7 megatons (2,25E18 joules). Not quite enough to match a Sovereign class, rated at 5,7E18 joules of shielding.

Rated by whom? Keep historiographic principles please, and by that I mean provide links to REPUTABLE sites.

www.ditl.org will do for the Enterprise-E ratings. Take the uprated Sovereign for it, though.

Agreed.

In any case, a terawatt-range "energy emitter" (albeit using an unspecified type of energy) can overload GCS shields in less than a minute13.

A fully-shielded GCS is noticeably affected by mere 2.1MJ disruptors15, with bridge quaking which indicates a brief disruption of propulsion or inertial control systems (that simply isn't enough energy to physically rock the ship).

GCS shields cannot be made strong enough to permit safe passage through a low-density asteroid field28 (never mind an extremely violent high-density field like the one at Hoth).

GCS shields cannot deflect the heat of atmospheric re-entry, and the hull will heat up dramatically even before shields fail32.

Change 2,1 MJ by 2,1 PJ (petajoules, or 1E15 joules) and that will be correct then.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
www.ditl.org will do for the Enterprise-E ratings. Take the uprated Sovereign for it, though.

Amusing. A website made by one guy who writes ST fanfic.

I've heard of it before. Here's a quote from Mistah Wong noting Daystrom's bad estimates:

"By the way, the concept of energy balances is deceptively simple in definition, but it is misunderstood with frightening regularity, which is very ironic considering that people are talking about science fiction and claim to understand science. One example is the Genesis Device seen in ST2. Trekkies have advanced ludicrous energy estimates for the Genesis Device (the author of the Daystrom Institute Technical Library claims that a "conservative" estimate for the Genesis Device energy output is 2E48 J!), but in reality, their claims merely serve as good illustrations of how not to perform an energy balance:

The erroneous trekkie "analysis" goes as follows: the mass of the planet must collapse quickly to form a planet (actually, the author of the aforementioned propaganda claims that it formed an entire star system even though the entire process took place inside an existing star system). Therefore, we can generate some arbitrary figures for the size of the nebula (eg. Mr. Kennedy claims that the nebula is 1.5 light years wide even though it is small enough to fit inside a star system, reachable from a nearby planet within minutes at sublight velocities). Once we have generated these large and impressive (albeit totally incorrect) numbers, we can assume that the entire collapse process occurs in seconds (although the actual elapsed time is totally unknown). Since we have exaggerated this combination of nebula size and elapsed time to the point where it necessitates superluminal collapse speeds, we can then conclude that the matter is warp-driven (perhaps they put tiny warp nacelles on all of the little molecules). Therefore, we can use the warp-power chart in the TM to guesstimate the energy required to raise the speed of the matter by the necessary amount to form an entire solar system (even though only a planet was formed). Even if we disregard the various logical and dimensional errors in this analysis, we can easily determine that it violates the First Law of Thermodynamics for two reasons:

The change in energy states is negative, not positive! When a planet or even an entire star system is formed from a nebula, the energy state of the newly-formed planet (or star system, if one chooses to accept the author's non-canon assumptions about creating an entire star system) is actually lower than the energy state of the pre-existing nebula. In fact, given enough time, it is entirely possible that gravitational forces would have eventually drawn the nebula together into a single mass naturally! While the Death Star must take a planet in a low gravitational potential energy state and bring its entire mass to a high gravitational potential energy state, the Genesis Device did the exact opposite: it took a nebula with a high gravitational potential energy state and brought it to a low gravitational potential energy state. This means that the process of drawing a nebula together into a planet and/or star will actually tend to release energy rather than consuming it.
Where does all the excess energy go? If the Genesis Device actually releases 2E48 J of energy, it has to go somewhere! If it expends all of that energy to accelerate the matter to incredible speeds, what happens when all of that matter reaches the target? Does the kinetic energy simply disappear? It cannot simply disappear, due to the First Law of Thermodynamics. 2E48 J of energy is equivalent to the simultaneous explosion of tens of millions of supernovae- such a massive release of energy would have obliterated the entire Regula star system and most likely eliminated all life on nearby star systems as well. There is no way to perform work on an object without raising its energy state: accelerated objects gain kinetic energy, deformed objects gain thermal energy, etc. Federation cultists ask us to believe that an input of 2E48 J actually lowered the energy state of the Mutara Nebula!
We can clearly see that the trekkie claims regarding the Genesis Device are based on a deplorable misunderstanding of the First Law of Thermodynamics; instead of comparing the "before" and "after" energy states, as anyone with thermodynamics or physics training would do, they make uneducated guesses about what happens during the process itself, and don't particularly care whether it makes any sense from the point of view of overall energy balances. To summarize, don't make the same mistakes made by trekkies: remember that "energy after" - "energy before" = "energy input". Thus endeth the lesson."

TJ, I'm not being biased here, Star Trek DIES HORRIBLY against Star Wars. I love Star Trek, but it's NOT known for it's military ability. Star Wars IS.


First, look at pure FTL travel times.

The Intrepid, an advanced ship class, took 16 YEARS to cross that galaxy. A Star Wars ship can make the same journey in less than a few weeks.


I'm also curious as to why you are comparing The Flagship of the Federation against an EXTREMELY common Imperial Ship. The Federation built three Soverign class, the Imperial built 25000 Imperial Star Destroyers.


Quote from Stardestroyer.net:

"If the asteroids were 40 meters in diameter (and some were much larger), the TLs were directing at least 2000 TJ of energy to vaporise the asteroids, many times the conservative energy level presented above. If the amount of time the bolt is striking the asteroid is 1/15 second (2 frames), 30,000 Terawatts are delivered to the asteroid. Assuming these turbolaser cannons have a maximum firing rate of once every two seconds, they have a sustained firepower of at least 1000 terawatts. The most solid evidence that suggests 40 meter asteroids was in the Avenger-Falcon chase scene, coming out of the asteroid field. One asteroid was at least 60 meters in diameter, which would require at least 6700 terajoules to vaporise! Another asteroid in a previous scene may have been as large as 100 meters in diameter, requiring at least 31,000 terajoules to vaporise! "


31,000 Terajoules of energy from 60 guns. It would take a SINGLE Imperial Star Destroyer ~5 seconds to breach the Enterprise's shields.

31,000(terajoules from each gun)*30(60 guns firing once every two seconds)=930,000(joules per second)

4,590,000(Soverign Shield capability)/930,000(energy released from Imperial Star Destroyer every second)=4.93548387(seconds)



Remember, that the most powerful ship the Federation has against a SINGLE ship that the Impire has 25000 of. FIVE SECONDS and the Enterprise is gone!


To futher impress this upon you, the fire power from a SINGLE Imperial Star Destroyer could destroy the ENTIRE Federation fleet even if EVERY ship in their fleet was a SOVERIGN.

~5(seconds to destroy a soverign)*8000(~approximatly the number of ships in the Federation Fleet)=40000(seconds)

40000(seconds)/3600(number of seconds in an hour)=11.1111111 hours.


Less than half a day for a SINGLE ship in the Imperial Navy to destroy the ENTIRE Federation Navy assuming the Federation Navy consist of ONLY SOVERIGN class ships(their most powerful ship constructed).

star wars deffinently is know for its millitary were you blind during the last 30 mins of attack of the clones or 75% of rots, and on the other hand were you high when you thought you saw actual GOOD fights in star trek ???? Star wars is much more milliterized

I have another site, much more neutral than stardestroyer.net: www.st-v-sw.net will do. If the STL speeds of Star Wars are sluggish compared to Sovereigns (the MOST sluggish of Federation ships), then ISDs have very slow accelerations (max: 20g) and the Sovereigns have 3,400G! I use that site as reference for FTL speeds. Amidala's yacht took 16 hours to cross ONE parsec (3,26 light-years) and at normal hyperspeeds, the Rebel fleet went from Sullust to Endor (200 light-years) in a week or so. Then, the figures as to travel 100,000 light-years (or even 12,000 light-years in a few weeks are totally contradicted by the movies.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
I have another site, much more neutral than stardestroyer.net: www.st-v-sw.net will do. If the STL speeds of Star Wars are sluggish compared to Sovereigns (the MOST sluggish of Federation ships), then ISDs have very slow accelerations (max: 20g) and the Sovereigns have 3,400G! I use that site as reference for FTL speeds. Amidala's yacht took 16 hours to cross ONE parsec (3,26 light-years) and at normal hyperspeeds, the Rebel fleet went from Sullust to Endor (200 light-years) in a week or so. Then, the figures as to travel 100,000 light-years (or even 12,000 light-years in a few weeks are totally contradicted by the movies.

st-v-sw.net is BIASED since it's designed by a ST fan. Not to mention it's completely out of any logic.

a) Amidala's yacht traveling:
We don't know how long that travel really was since the author of ST-v-SW.net is using times on CORUSCANT to figure out what time it is on Geonosis / Tatooine. How stupid can somebody be ? Why would a planet on the other side of the galaxy would have the same daytime as planet A (Tatooine) and planet B (Geonosis) ?

If you go by the AotC script and the movie Obi-Wan is sending his message from Geonosis to Anakin in the morning. We know that the communication works instantly since Obi-Wan could directly speak to Yoda and Mace on Geonosis while being on Carmino.
No R2-D2 on Tatooine receives the message during daytime on Tatooine and from the light seen you can assume it must be late on the day. That means there is a huge difference in time between Geonosis and Tatooine (easily 6 or more hours).

Now we know that Padme and Anakin left Tatooine during the sunset (let's say 6-7 p.m. - which would be 1 p.m or earlier on Geonosis) and did arive on Geonosis during daytime again.
So where do people get the "16 hours" from ? The only scenes happening during the time they travel are one scene on Coruscant (day time) and one on Geonosis (again day time).

And even is the statment is right that they needed 16 hours for one parsec. That is Warp 9.37 in ST terms.

b) Rebel fleet traveling from Sullust to Endor:
Again we don't know how much time that took. What we know is that the Rebel fleet entered hyperspace when the team under the command of Han Solo was already on Endor. And as far as we know they only spend 2 days on Endor.

That means they travelled 200 lightyears in less than 48 hours which would be Warp 9.99+ in terms of the ST universe. Even if they would have needed an entire week (168 hours) they would still have travelled with Warp 9.99+
So what is your point here ?

c) Being really fast:
The distance between Tatooine and Alderaan is exactly 40,000 lightyears and the Millenium Falcon crossed that distance in 7 hours in ANH. That means the Millenium Falcon can cross distances with the speed of 50,000,000c while the maximum speed of Star Trek ships would be Warp 9.9999 approxematly 200,000c. Any questions ?

And thats just the travel thing. How about the range part..

Thats even worse, range of 60 kilometers? Explain the Death Star then? Explain how entire ships could start bombing planets from orbit, thats far more then 60 kilometers to fire. The guy is obviously biased. He spends a lot of time in finding things that make the SW range seem low, but then completely misses all the much easier things which show that the range is actually quite large...

What the hell? The Federation would lose, badly. Especially if one single Star Destroyer could obliterate their entire fleet.

Twilight Janick, I withdraw all insults against you. While this thread is biaed far on one side, your arguments are well reasoned (for the most part), and your personality better then most we get in here.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
I have another site, much more neutral than stardestroyer.net: www.st-v-sw.net will do. If the STL speeds of Star Wars are sluggish compared to Sovereigns (the MOST sluggish of Federation ships), then ISDs have very slow accelerations (max: 20g) and the Sovereigns have 3,400G! I use that site as reference for FTL speeds. Amidala's yacht took 16 hours to cross ONE parsec (3,26 light-years) and at normal hyperspeeds, the Rebel fleet went from Sullust to Endor (200 light-years) in a week or so. Then, the figures as to travel 100,000 light-years (or even 12,000 light-years in a few weeks are totally contradicted by the movies.


Apparently you don't even know what you are arguing for, muchless what you are arguing against. The Soverign was one of the FASTEST Federation Ships of all time, perhaps even the very fastest.

Second, the Acceleration of a Star Destroyer is more than 20g, it is actually 2,300g. It's also several times the Soverign's mass.

Even the Acclamator, an outdated ship(nearly a hundred years old) is capable of accelerating at 3,500 G.


As a side note, either answer people's questions or leave. You've left almost everything we've shown that goes against your case unaswered, and that pisses people off.

Hmm, let's make a change to the OP then. If the Federation managed to acquire ST tech, could they presumably do as the romans in their war against Carthage and create a good enough fleet to beat the Empire?

Tatooine to Alderaan took ten days, the www.ditl.org warp figures are completely wrong, and Tatooine to Alderaan is about 300 light-years.

Sorry to butt in, but wasn't Tatooine about a quarter or more of the galaxy away from Alderaan?

And isn't a galaxy 10's to 100's of thousands of lightyears?

Or the 1/4 of a galaxy is wrong too.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
Tatooine to Alderaan took ten days

That's simply wrong. You simply didn't understand the things told in ANH right:

Han: Anyway, we should be at Alderaan about 0200 hours.

That means they will reach Alderaan at 2 a.m. and not that they needed 200 hours to fly from Tatooine to Alderaan. So stop posting things like that.




ditl.org ? I never visited that side...

http://www.ussbelgica.be/engineering/warp_formulae.php

Read that and start crying. ST ships are MUCH slower than SW ones.



ROFL ? Where did you get that stuff from. Tatooine and Alderaan are 40,000 lightyears away from each other. Alderaan is pretty close to the core worlds while Tatooine is at the Outer Rim (so on the edge of the Galaxy). The SW Galaxy is 100,000 lightyears wide so 50,000 lightyears from the core to the Outer Rim.

And even if you are right (and you aren't...sorry) the Millenium Falcon would have crossed 300 lightyears in 200 hours which is 1,5 lightyears per hour and that would be 13149c and thereby faster than Warp 9,99. Period.

Or let it tell me to you the other way around. The Voyager would need about 75 years to cross 70,000 lightyears back to the Alpha Quadrant with maximum speed. The Millenium Falcon, with the speed you estimated (which is horribly wrong) would need around 5 years and 4 months for the same distance.

Again: Your point being ?

High Five Nai.

Told ya Janick.

Very nice. Consider your pro-Trekkie argument pwned.

But AT-STs wouldn't be destroyed if exposed to phaser fire?

What? AT-ST are insignificant. Any planet the Federation anages to win a ground battle on(none), the Empire will simply glass the entire planet.

But the ISDs reactors are hydrogen-fusion. This quote, taken from the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, clearly shows it for every SW ship:

Children on Tatooine tell each other of the dragons that live inside the suns; smaller cousins of the sun-dragons are supposed to live inside the fusion furnaces that power everything from starships to Podracers.

To bad that isn't a literal statement. They use hypermatter reactors.

So, tell me. What is the power output of the most powerful Federation Ship ever contrusted. Or even Star Base for that matter?

You're kidding me... You're basing the technology off of the Star Wars series off of one line from a novelisation? Nice.

Never mind the SW technical manuals, etc. I like how you assumed fusion also meant neccessarily hydrogen fusion.

In any case, your points are mute. Federation gets owned. Give it up.

Problem is that guy is in denial. He never answers anyone post.

If anything, seems to go in a completely different direction. Like phasers being At-STs... WTF? He should look to his pro-series, ST, and note that Star Trek Federation forces have been stalled by a single mortar! Hell, Napoleon could steamroll over the entire Federation army.

I'd like to see how Boudika would handle the Federation.

Better yet, a Space Marine Chapter

Let's put it that way: the ISD reactors produces a quantity of energy roughly equal to 10,000 TJ per second, if the novelization lines implies that the ISD reactors are hydrogen fusion-based, then 200 kg of hydrogen per second would be consumed. The Voyager antimatter reactor can produce 5,000 TJ per second as a lower limit. Then if the 10,000 TJ per second off an ISD was true, it couldn't power up a large quantity of weapon emplacements.

And to answer that claim that a single mortar can kill Federation soldiers, then stormtrooper armor are nothing but environmental suits! As per ROTJ, in the battle of Ewoks versus the Empire, we see a stormtrooper being killed by a prehistoric arrow. If prehistoric arrows can kill stormtroopers encased in armor, then mortars will do it too.

Yes, but Stormtrooper armor is designed as "laser resistant". BTW, the sheer nature of the federation means that any war on the part of the two sides will be a defensive war fought in Federation space, against overwhelming firewpower. My money is simply on the Federation going bell up the minute a planet gets destroyed or a sun imploded.

Janus, forget him. He's a retard.

I am starting to think so.

All right. Star Trek owns the surface, but Star Wars rule the space!

No, Star Wars rules all the way around.

I said if infantry of both sides can be stalled by simple mortars, and the phasers of the UFP can vaporize AT-STs ans AT-ATs (or at least their weapons), then UFP rules the surface.

But hyperdrives need star maps to work. If you don't have any star map of Federation worlds, how can you take them? Turbolasers are too destructive to effectively cripple ST ships, if I take your viwepoint.

Hyperdrives don't need starmaps... They just need a place where they can jump into hyperspace and then hope they won't hit anything. Star Maps just show the already explored routes.

Really. The Federation owns the surface with...what, exactly? Their hordes and hordes of red-shirted ensigns?

Any artillery to speak of? How about armored vehicles? No?

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
I said if infantry of both sides can be stalled by simple mortars, and the phasers of the UFP can vaporize AT-STs ans AT-ATs (or at least their weapons), then UFP rules the surface.

Did you realize that the Empire has serveral 100 Millions of ground troopers not to mention ground assault vessels that can take hits from canons having more firepower than phasers (AT-ATs in ESB) ? UFP is getting outnumbered and outclassed heavily. Not to mention that the Empire doesn't even need ground battles: "Look a federation planet" - "Glass it" or "Blow it up".



There was an exploration of hyperspace routes - so people were obviously using hyperspace engines without having star maps of the regions they went to. That's the way they first discovered the Sith Empire.

Does it matter if one side "owns the ground", which has been hotly contested if the other can simply bombard their ground forces to utter submission?

Phasers-3 set to the maximum setting can vaporize 3,000 tons of solid iron. The Federation can field millions of those ensigns. Since the AT-AT's cannons can only fragment the anti-infantry and the anti-vehicle turrets, one can wonder if Federation infantry can actually destroy these.

TIE fighters are unshielded, phasers-1 can destroy these quite easily.

Definately. The Empire wins this by such a clear margin... TJ is a Trekkie for sure.

It's rather nonsensical to claim that phasers would destroy TIE Fighters based on the fact that TIEs are unshielded.

They may be unshielded, but they are armored. Of course, this armor has little to no protection against the ungodly powerful turbolasers and starfighter lasers of the Star Wars universe but...

Phasers? Haven't we already proven that phasers are by far inferior to Star Wars weaponry? I'll rely on the more-scientifically-minded of the forum to state their proof again, if they wish.

That and the TIE's reputation as being maneuverable and hard-to-hit makes the phaser point rather moot.

Really, it's been demonstrated in Star Trek episodes that Federation troops (Which are picked straight ouy of the Starfleet (Read: navy and only armed branch of the Federation forces) has lost a battle where an enemy charged them and was bottlenecked, yet the Feds lost. Their phasers (Handheld and otherwise) can't sustain fire to hold a position versus regular troops... what the hell makes you think they could last against armoed vehicles? Does the Federation have even ONE armoed vehicle or artillery device?

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
Phasers-3 set to the maximum setting can vaporize 3,000 tons of solid iron. The Federation can field millions of those ensigns. Since the AT-AT's cannons can only fragment the anti-infantry and the anti-vehicle turrets, one can wonder if Federation infantry can actually destroy these.

TIE fighters are unshielded, phasers-1 can destroy these quite easily.

Woah. And again. There is evidence that metals in the SW universe can thousands of times the physical stress that steel can take. That means they have a higher density. Which would again mean that the are more dificult to melt or vaporize. At least SW's own weapons can't destroy the armour of an AT-AT and they have a greater firepower than every Phaser known.

So it's simply stupid to assume that Phasers would be able to destroy AT-AT's or to destroy TIE-Fighters. Period.

And even if they can it won't matter. The Empire would simply annihilated Federation troops by blasting their planets away.

The Empire is more likely to have the Federation worlds untouched.

In a flat out annihilation war? Considerinng the GE was willing to use it on THEIR OWN PLANETS, what makes you think that the GE won't use it on UFP planets?

Fanboyism, obviously. Fanboys are so annoying. I never realized how many people denied reason until I came here.

If you think this is bad, check out the comic book versus forums.

I used to. Now I just go to the Games Versus Forum to see reason spit upon by Goku/Ryu/Wolverine/Master Chief fanboys.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
I used to. Now I just go to the Games Versus Forum to see reason spit upon by Goku/Ryu/Wolverine/Master Chief fanboys. What? No Spiderman?

Damn. Forgot him. Add him in.

The Federation folks respect more the Jedi principles than Jedi do in the movies, comics and books. At least, apparently.

But the Empire doesn't have the coordinates of any Federation world. How'd they get them?

As to why the Empire wants the Federation worlds intact, it's because some Federation planets might have interesting natural resources to put to use.

Oh sure. Because the Empire is always lacking natural resources, right? I'm sure they made those Death Stars and Imperial fleets out of pine tar and balsa wood, since they didn't have the resources to do otherwise.

Please, it'd be total war. The Empire wouldn't even show the restraint and leniency it granted to the Rebellion.

That and what makes you think the Federation would know jack about where the Empire's worlds are?

Originally posted by IKC
Oh sure. Because the Empire is always lacking natural resources, right? I'm sure they made those Death Stars and Imperial fleets out of pine tar and balsa wood, since they didn't have the resources to do otherwise.

lmfao... This quote goes in my profile.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
But the Empire doesn't have the coordinates of any Federation world. How'd they get them?

They can track back travel routes of Federation ships. No big deal. And considering the fact that they have some force users they could simply get coordinates out of some captured Federation captains mind.

And how would the Federation get coordinates of the Empires worlds - not that they would be able to do something with them since they would be outclassed in every kind of space battle.



Considering the fact that the Empire had better materials than the Federation and (considering the size of the Empires fleet) even more of them - why should they leave Federation worlds intact ? Even if the want to they can still glass the surface and thereby annihilate whatever is down there (including Federation Troops).

I'd let YOU argue over that. Janick out.

What? Are you some sort of retard?

About as smart as my discolored, flaky toenail,

Careful there, you might have an infection.

I hate that ad. It's almost as bas as the one that goes "OUCH!" at one in the morning while listening to music.

I hate every add. How do they know I have irritation around my genitals? zOMG!

They need a soylent green one. That or an honest to God "Britons! Join your nation's defense" type thing. Where have all the old posters gone anyway?

I have no clue.

Just a note about hypermatter: its fusion generates as much energy as e=mc2 would allow to.

Just to let you know, matter/antimatter is under the same principle as e=mc2. So, how about you stfu and go get a freakin education. The Empire would cruch them, get over youself.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
Just a note about hypermatter: its fusion generates as much energy as e=mc2 would allow to.

Can you please tell me what you wanted to say with that sentence ?

If you take a look at the ICS book for Episode 3, you get to see that a (Recusant-class, Venator-class, Munificient-class or the Invisible Hand, don't know which one though) consumed a few thousands of tons of hypermatter per second. And Star Trek doesn't go further than a few grams or kilograms per second. Knowing both these things generates the same energy per gram or per kilogram, bingo!

Definition of a troll:
"Intentionally posting an outrageous argument, deliberately constructed around a fundamental but obfuscated flaw or error. Often the poster will become defensive when the argument is refuted, but may instead continue the thread through the use of further flawed arguments; this is referred to as "feeding" the troll."

Are you defining me as a troll?

Idiot works too.

I also like "Trekkie baffoon."

"The Negotiator"?

Or, "The Guy who Mel Gibson blew the brains out of in Payback."

That movie pwns.

Is "Bunghole" taken?

Yeah, John Kerry has it.

No, his was "Contradiction Man".

Oh right, who am I thinking of then?

Al Sharpton?

Him or Springer....

Springer causes more fights.

Yeah, it's him then.


But Michael Moore...........ah forget it.

Michael Moore is easier to make fun of.

F*ckin liberal redneck.

No need to mince words with that one.

lol!

I was wondering about that, but I wasn't gonna tackle it with my high school physics mastery.

But the only things that actually work with that principle of hypermatter are the superweapons. Otherwise, why don't they travel at 0,75c in realspace, for example?

We're actually using science to debate Star Wars and Star Trek.

Interesting turn of events.

Science can't answer everything in war, as evidenced by the failure of the French in the Franco-Prussian war. They had better equipment, yet still failed.

No...

But when you can proof that SW has an army of billions with something like modern day technology. Including the nukes and everything like that against somebody with technology of the ancient egyptians... Good but not good enough, you can be pretty sure of the winner.

There is just no way ST could conquer SW even if they would somehow magically manage to win one battle which is foolish because one helicopter would already take down the Egyptian army's.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
But the only things that actually work with that principle of hypermatter are the superweapons. Otherwise, why don't they travel at 0,75c in realspace, for example?

Well...who threw that BS in here: me or you ?

And again you're wrong. The superweapons are using even greater amounts of energy. The energy needed to destroy a planet like Alderaan is equal to about 2.4x10e32 J power.

The energy required is produced by the Death Star reactor in 24 hours or 86,400 seconds. That would be about 2.7x10e26 J of power generated every second which is about equal to 2/3 of the energy produced by our sun.

And to answer you question why they don't travel at 0,75c in realspace: They simply have no need to do so. The only situations where they aren't in hyperspace are blockades of sun systems (or simply patrol the orbit) or space battles - no use for speeds like that.

And Stardestroyers have accelerate rates up to 3000 G which - considering the mass of a Stardestroyer - would need some energy.

Originally posted by Fishy
No...

But when you can proof that SW has an army of billions with something like modern day technology. Including the nukes and everything like that against somebody with technology of the ancient egyptians... Good but not good enough, you can be pretty sure of the winner.

There is just no way ST could conquer SW even if they would somehow magically manage to win one battle which is foolish because one helicopter would already take down the Egyptian army's.
Until it ran out of fuel. I'm just saying that using science to explain war and who would win it usually doesn't work. Look at the US in Iraq. Only the soft science explanation of Clausewitz (friction) can explain their difficulty in holding and securing such a large area, not firepower calculations. That being said, for the purpose of determining whoever can blow the shit out of each, using RL science is good.

Originally posted by Gryn Jabar
Until it ran out of fuel. I'm just saying that using science to explain war and who would win it usually doesn't work. Look at the US in Iraq. Only the soft science explanation of Clausewitz (friction) can explain their difficulty in holding and securing such a large area, not firepower calculations. That being said, for the purpose of determining whoever can blow the shit out of each, using RL science is good.

Even with the low oil reserves of this day and age any modern army would destroy the ancient egyptian army... Besides bullets don't cost much.

Point is that ST does not have a chance because of their technology and we all know that they don't have the military skills. They aren't ready for something like a full out war, they aren't build for that. So unless they would have technological superiority which they don't they can never win a war.

I know, that's what I've been saying. BTW I was replying to your statement that 1 helicopter would destroy the egyptian army.

Originally posted by Gryn Jabar
Science can't answer everything in war, as evidenced by the failure of the French in the Franco-Prussian war. They had better equipment, yet still failed.

Science can't answer everything in war. That's correct.

But science can explain firepower (SW outclasses ST heavily) and this situation isn't compareable to what we have "experienced" so far on earth. The Empire is greatly outnumbering the UFP, is superior in terms of technology (faster ships, more powerful weapons, better shields) and as far as we know has the better military strategist (Thrawn) not even considering force powers (battle meditation, force storms or the fact that Vader would be able to kill the crew of an UFP starship on his own).

The only way to deal with the Empire would be to use guerilla tactics (like the Ewoks / Rebels did on Endor) - which is nearly impossible in space battles and won't simply be useful enough in ground battles.

If a single Imperial StarDestroyer can destroy a UFP ship in less than 10 seconds they won't have much time to use any "tactics" unless they do some kamikaze attack on imperial starships and even then they still will lose because the Empire is outnumbering them greatly.

And you have to consider that the Empire doesn't hesitate much when it comes to destroying enemies. They even destroyed their own planets (Alderaan) when thinking it's necessary. And now think about the US army throwing nuclear bombs on Iraq. That would "pacify" the country pretty fast and would be something the Imperial Navy would do.

In addition,the empire has greater political will to use it's weapons, whereas the UFP, at least, from my experiance, is not willing to commit genocide on nearly every planet it encounters. To quote an earlier post by myself:
2) The Galactic Empire can destroy galaxies (galaxy gun), planets (death star), and has force users. What does the UFP have that is anywhere NEAR that? Even if it did, would they use it?

Pile up the red shirted ensigns for another round of "HOW bad can we pwn ST?"

One question though: how big are Galaxy Guns?

Big Enough to whoop the shit out of anything the federation can throw at it. In relation to an ISD:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Special/Galaxy.jpg

That link isn't working for me.

Originally posted by Fishy
Even with the low oil reserves of this day and age any modern army would destroy the ancient egyptian army... Besides bullets don't cost much.

Point is that ST does not have a chance because of their technology and we all know that they don't have the military skills. They aren't ready for something like a full out war, they aren't build for that. So unless they would have technological superiority which they don't they can never win a war. The NYPD could take out the Egyptian armies.

Probably the Roman's too.

Are we talking about the same NYPD?

I wouldn't bet my money on any police force I've heard of... They are not selected for their brains nor their accuracy. Now a professional force or special operations unit... perhaps. In any case, this is assuming that the group has the resources and the intelligence and leadership to tackle a professional if archaic army.

Any national police (RCMP, FBI, Gestapo, etc) could probably handle it. Maybe with Pronvincial/State. Probably not city. The question is whether or not the police would pull a "THIS IS MY BOOMSTICK!" on them.

Well, city police aren't big on shooting to kill. State police are usually pricks and leathernecks. The Feds would unleash hell.

Well is this an all out war or do a few million Egyptians pop up in their cities?

Egyptians as a whole would probably be cowed by the technology, since they were a superstitious people. If we suspense disbelief and say that that has no bearing on their attitude towards a war of annihilation, and say we drop a group of (Unit Whatver) in the desert to combat them, then we can argue over it.

Originally posted by Twilight Janick
One question though: how big are Galaxy Guns?

Since the link Gryn Jabar posted is broken:

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/galaxygun.jpg

You can see a normal StarDestroyer compared to the Galaxy Gun. The Galaxy gun is about 4 1/3 the length of a Stardestroyer or nearly 7 kilometres long and it fires projectiles that travel through hyperspace and are able to destroy planets.
Thereby it can be installed on a heavily fortified planet or star system and hit anything in the galaxy or at least it can shoot worlds in the Outer Rim from the Core worlds which is about 50,000 lightyears range.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Since the link Gryn Jabar posted is broken:

http://intern.darklegion.de/eddie/galaxygun.jpg

You can see a normal StarDestroyer compared to the Galaxy Gun. The Galaxy gun is about 4 1/3 the length of a Stardestroyer or nearly 7 kilometres long and it fires projectiles that travel through hyperspace and are able to destroy planets.
Thereby it can be installed on a heavily fortified planet or star system and hit anything in the galaxy or at least it can shoot worlds in the Outer Rim from the Core worlds which is about 50,000 lightyears range. Wouldn't the Sun Crusher be better though?

I mean--Small, virtually indestructable, can blow away a whole system in one shot, mobile.

Since when have the Eygpians have anyhthing to do with SW?

Off topic nonsense.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Off topic nonsense.

Lol for a moment there I thought I missed Star Wars Episode VII Ra vs Sidious.

Sidious would pwn Ra.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Sidious would pwn Ra. WHA......!


KAAAAAAAAHHN!!!

KHAAAAAAANNNN!!!

BERNIE MAAAAAACC!!!

IS BLAAAAACKK!!

AND HE HAS A NICE RAAAACK!!

Erm...

*Steps away*

What? What'd I say?

He DOES have a nice spice rack. I mean that think only took a week to build, but it's perfect.

Oak or cherry?

Originally posted by Tangible God
Wouldn't the Sun Crusher be better though?

I mean--Small, virtually indestructable, can blow away a whole system in one shot, mobile.

No.

a) The Sun Crusher has to move and the Galaxy Gun doesn't have to which means you can simply have an entire fleet guard the Galaxy Gun while it fires.

b) The problem with the Sun Crusher is that it always destroys entire star systems which might not be useful in some ocassions (for example if you want to destroy planet X in a system but want to have the resource of planet Y in the same system)

c) Nobody would be able to steal the Galaxy Gun and use it for his own purpose.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Oak or cherry? Ebony, actually.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
No.

a) The Sun Crusher has to move and the Galaxy Gun doesn't have to which means you can simply have an entire fleet guard the Galaxy Gun while it fires.

b) The problem with the Sun Crusher is that it always destroys entire star systems which might not be useful in some ocassions (for example if you want to destroy planet X in a system but want to have the resource of planet Y in the same system)

c) Nobody would be able to steal the Galaxy Gun and use it for his own purpose. Ah, damn it.

There go my dreams of conquering the galaxy with a Sun Crusher look alike made of Titanium,

Why does this argument still go on? We've destroyed Janick's points, and moved on to arguing about Ebony spice racks and Egyptian pwning. I maintain that the Egyptians MIGHT be able to zerg their way to a win if they aren't affected by the tech.

In any case, TJ is pwned. This fight is OVA.