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The victors?

This all comes down to whether or not the IE could simply spam their way to a win. If the GE takes out the Star Forge, then it's all over for the Rakatan.

this may have been done before oh no wait it was who was the best army and not a poll so yeah i go with infinite empire though it did take some persuading

Done before. Ge wins.

Done before I still the infinite Empire wins.

the Galactic Empire good as it was still lost to the rebellion who was by all means outnumbered outgunned and outclassed.

The Infinite Empire would perhaps be outnumbered and outgunned but far from outclassed. And their technology is great as well. They have billions of force users, imagine the damage those people can do against the Galactic Empire.

All Rakatan at the start would have to be around Malak his level of power, or at least not that much weaker (probably not weaker at all but instead far more powerful) They were smart they knew how to adpot and even 21.000 years later their technology was still cutting edge.

the Star Forge is also able to adopt to new designs (Revan his robes, the no longer needing the force for hyperspace part) They were the one's that invented hyperspace travel for as far as we can tell. And i'm sure they are more then skilled enough to somehow take a SD or an SSD. The Star Forge would probably be able to reproduce it and the Raktan would use it against the Empire.

And thats not even mentioning the billion force users part yet. I mean a billion force users. They would completely pwn the Empire with this. If one X-Wing can take out the Death Star. Imagine with a million force users in fighters can do. GE has the fire power, but lacks everyting else.

Oh geez, this again.

We DO NOT know enough about the Rakatan's past, esppecially when comparing to the Empire, for whom we know EVERYTHING.

You can't argue this, there IS no victor until more details are released on the IE.

TG, we can. If you don't like this match-up, do post in it.



Fishy: "The Infinite Empire would perhaps be outnumbered and outgunned but far from outclassed. And their technology is great as well. They have billions of force users, imagine the damage those people can do against the Galactic Empire."

It took a fleet of their ships to knock out Taris. Turns out that fleet only knocked out almost everything; ship capable of base delta zero wouldn't exist for another 3900 years(the Acclamator).

Second, the force users appear to be more like the Korunnia(at best), force sensitive, but not trained in the force. There were 1 billion of them at their height(quote, Rakata Computer). It is unreasonable to say many of these were trained, or that even all of them were force sensitive to begin with.


Fishy, "All Rakatan at the start would have to be around Malak his level of power, or at least not that much weaker (probably not weaker at all but instead far more powerful) They were smart they knew how to adpot and even 21.000 years later their technology was still cutting edge."

WHAT!! All of them at Malaks powerlevel! This makes zero sense. Because they were smart? Brains doesn't mean power. Look at Anakin. He was virtually retarded. Same with Kaan. Brain doesn't show power at all. Sidious was probably smarter than Ludo Kressh, but Kressh would waste him. Also, being able to control the Star Forge isn't a proper indicator of this. It is easier to control ones own technology than a foreign one, on top of the fact that you blindly assume that every single Rakata was able to control the Star Forge.

And their technology being on par with technology 21000 years later. Well, what does this show. That they hit a point and then no longer advanced. On par with technology that is 4000 years old by the time the GE arrived, and technology of the KOTOR times if FAR weaker than GE technology.


Foshy, "the Star Forge is also able to adopt to new designs (Revan his robes, the no longer needing the force for hyperspace part) They were the one's that invented hyperspace travel for as far as we can tell."

They didn't invent hyperspace travel, they invented the hyperdrive. And this means what exactly? They invented something that the GE has had for a long time. A very long time. GE hyperdrive is also far more advanced that Rakata hyperdrives.

Only 600 years earlier, the standard hyperdrive was a class 3(The Dreadnought class). The Acclamator(the predecessor to the Imperial class) was capable of Class 0.7 speeds. The Imperator was downgraded to a class two, I think, but it is still FAR faster than anything that the Rakata had.


Fishy, "And i'm sure they are more then skilled enough to somehow take a SD or an SSD. The Star Forge would probably be able to reproduce it and the Raktan would use it against the Empire."

Can you prove this? You don't have, or at least haven't shown any basis for this except that they were able to reproduce FAR less advanced technology. And it was the Star Forge that produced the ships, but it was the Sith Engineers, people who already understood the tecnnology who reproduced it. There is no grounds(at least none that I see) that show that the Rakata have any chance of reproducing any of the GE technology.


Fishy, "And thats not even mentioning the billion force users part yet. I mean a billion force users. They would completely pwn the Empire with this. If one X-Wing can take out the Death Star. Imagine with a million force users in fighters can do. GE has the fire power, but lacks everyting else."

There were NOT a billion force users, as stated above. It is completly unreasonable to expect that EVERYONE in their civilization was a force user or even force sensitive. Name one other civilization that was like that out of all the others.

So apparently you believe that the Death Star is the only GE weapon and that every Rakata is Luke Skywalker. You also seem to believe that the Rakata have proton torpedos. The Rakata were powerful; easily enough to get the GE to take them as a thread. All 7000 Tie Fighters on the Death Star will be sent against the Rakata and they will be destroyed.

And that's the weaker Death Star. The Second Death Star would be nearly invincible against attack when completed. The Sun Crusher would simple destroy every system it entered if the GE had it while fighitng the Rakata. Same with the Galaxy Gun, or the Eclipse one or two. The World Devastators would destroy a Rakata fleet.

The GE hardly lacks everything else. Look at pure manpower. There were one billion Rakata TOTAL at their height. The Regular Storm Troopers alone outnumber their entire civilization more than two to one.

The Imperators crew alone could almost match them man for man.

25,000(number of Imperators)*36000(number of people on each ship, minus the number of Storm Troopers on board)=900,000,000

Each Imperator had dozens, if not hundreds of support ships. The Rakata can't even hope to man that many ships.


Fishy, I'm going to admit, you just lost a lot of credibility with me. Your post seemed unreasonable almost the entire way through.

I wouldn't neccessarily rank that among Fishy's best posts myself, but I don't think it's tremendously discrediting. Fishy has been arguing good points for months. he's allowed a slip up or two.

He's still one of the best here in my mind. Before, Whatever he said I usually considered true unless I saw knew otherwise, but now, Illustrious or you would probably be able to get me to believe them more easily(as in, credibilty of word).

No offense intended Fishy, you're still a ton better at debate than me.

Wasn't it TEN billion Rakata at their prime? Which is still a ridiculously low number, for a galaxy(mostly) wide empire.

But see Gelntract? You see how much you know of GE technology? How many troops to a ship, what type of ship, the firepower of a ship, the extent of the Empire Force-knowledge.

Now look at the IE. WHAT type of ships did they have? How many? How many troops to a ship? How much firepower?

Just cause we know so little about the IE, doesn't mean we are to assume they were worse, they could have been better. But we don't know.

We can use facts to see that they were worse. I just got my KOTOR game back from a friend about an hour ago, so I haven't checked that, but I'll try to soon.

Anyway, no, 1 billion isn't low. They had 500 planets. The GE had about a million member worlds(member worlds. there were several times more colony worlds).

The 500 planets I'll give ya...I mean come on. Noone rules a galaxy with 500 planets, no matter what's said.

But a billion--10 even. Give us about 50 years and Earth will be that number. And to have total control over said 500 planets, well they couldn't garrison them all, the slaves would have an easy time overthrowing them.

So, to keep order for 1000's of years, they must have had decent ships to keep 'em in line.

Still though, we just (J.C. I'm reiterating) don't know enough about their TECHNOLOGY, just not enough.

But hey, numbers are on the side of the Imps, so f*ck the Rakata.

Even if we can't make a great comparison, we can still attempt it.


Second, yes, they only had five hundred planets. The slaves were able to be controlled even though they outnumbered the Rakata 100 to 1 probably in a situation like the Nazi camps. The Jews their outnumbered the Nazi like a hundred to one.


The Republic only had one clone for each planet in their space(shatterpoint).

Jews also lacked any equpiment whatsoever, which the slaves would need to fuel the rakata economy. Otherwise, they wouldn't be slaves.

And dude, I KNOW the GE would win, I just feel it's unfair to make such a biased opinion without giving the Rakata any merit.

Uh! Don't get me started on the Clone numbers. 1.2 million my ass.

There were only 196,000 on Geonosis.

In total though, it just doesn't fit.

Glentract a few things. They had 10 billion Rakatan and 1 billion soldiers..

Thats a billion force users, yes they were all force users. Thats how they powered their ships whats the use of having ships powered by the force if your troops don't have the force?

On the other races, Miraklu for instance also all had the force, they could see through the foce. (Visas and her race). Not necessarily all trained in it, but they could use it. The Rakatan however were trained in the force, the Rakatan computer says so.

So that means we have 1 billion trained force users. Who use the force to power their ships going out to fight a far more technological advanced Empire. But technology does not always cut it. All the Rakatan have to do is keep the Star Forge hidden (can't be that hard to do) then strike and run. And with force users in their army doing something like that can't be that hard.

And think about ground battles, even a weak force user can kill god knows how many troops. And these Rakatan were trained with the force for a long time seeing as it was the driving motivator behind their lives. You needed the force to enter the temple of ancients, you needed the force to control the star forge, you needed the force to use ships. They knew damn well what the force was and how to use it, it would be really strange if not. I mean seriously a billion force users in a warrior race. All using the Dark Side. The damage they are going to do against the Empire is going to be enormous.

And like I already said in my previous post there is proof that the Star Forge can adept to new technology, Revan his robes are a good example of this. The hyperdrive engines being able to fly without the use of the force. The Star Forge can change technology. Steal technology from the empire analyse it and use it.

also you can't forget the droids. The Star Forge could create god knows how many droids in a really short period of time. They are going to be quite good in assisting the Rakatan army's.

Originally posted by Fishy
Glentract a few things. They had 10 billion Rakatan and 1 billion soldiers..

Thats a billion force users, yes they were all force users. Thats how they powered their ships whats the use of having ships powered by the force if your troops don't have the force?

On the other races, Miraklu for instance also all had the force, they could see through the foce. (Visas and her race). Not necessarily all trained in it, but they could use it. The Rakatan however were trained in the force, the Rakatan computer says so.

First:
The Empire controlled thousands (or even millions) of planets. Coruscants population alone is 1 Trillion people (!) and we know that 365 trillion people died during the YV invasion. So they are greatly outnumbering the Infinite Empire

Second:
1 billion trained force users ? Trained to which degree ? Ok...they could use the force to control their ships but that isn't more than influence some circuits and that's how Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon disabled the battle droids (according to the TPM novel). So they can do things that Padawans can do without much concentration.

Third:
Considering the fact that the Miraluka are all physically blind their ability to see through the force might just come from their need to do that. All Koruunai are able to influence some animals through the force but that hardly makes them uber powerful force users.



Keeping the SF hidden:
You know that Hyperspace routes can be tracked back ?

Strike and run:
Against the Galactic Empire ? Do you have the Imperial Source Book ?

Just to throw some number in here. The smallest amount of ships used in the Imperial Navy is called "battle squadron" such a battle squadron contains:
1 Imperial-Class Star Destroyer
3 lines of other battleships (two attack lines, one pursuit line - each containing 18 ships average)

That would be 55 ships total.

Now the next bigger thing is called "Force Superiority" containing 3 battle squadrons, so:

3 Imperial-Class Star Destroyers
162 other battle ships

Next bigger thing is called "Superiority Fleet" containing 2 Force Superiorities or 6 battle squadrons:

6 Imperial-Class Star Destroyers
324 other battle ships

Now the Standart Sector Fleet contains 4 Superiority fleets. So the "normal" sector fleet would have:
24 Imperial- Class Star Destroyers
1296 other battle ships

Even if you like to assume that none of the other ships would have some starfighters, each Star Destroyer carries 72 of them (48 TIE fighters, 12 TIE Interceptors, 12 Bombers) which would be (in one sector fleet):

1152 TIE- Fighters
288 TIE- Interceptors
288 TIE- Bombers

And they have ships that can prevent other ships from entering hyperspace. So the Rakatan have to take out the Interdictor ships just to be able to enter hyperspace again while being confronted with totaly superior firepower and stuff like ion-canons which can disable ships and - as far as we know - weren't around in KotoR times.

That are only the numbers for a "standart" sector. I guess they would have more than that on vital points. Kuat Sector Defence for example has far more ships than that (at least on thing that is only little bit smaller than the Executor - in AOTC times)



In a ground battle ? Using the numbers of the sector fleet above (still estimating that only the ISD's have ground forces):

20 AT-AT's on each ISD = 480 in each sector fleet
30 AT-ST's on each ISD = 720 in each sector fleet
9,700 clone troopers on each ISD = 232,800 clone troopers in each sector fleet.

And some note: JEDI can take out many troops. Do you ever have seen the Rakatan using lightsaber or other weapons capable of deflecting / redirecting blasterfire ? I've only seen them using normal melee weapons and they would get pretty much owned using that things in a ground battle against the GE forces.
And note that even Jedi were outgunned by clone troopers on some occassions (e.g. Ki-Adi-Mundi in ROTS)



a)
Revan's robes where designed by the SF seing that the "lightside pendant" are as good and called "Star Forge Robes". I think that's one of the inconsistencies in the came.

b)
Where did you get the "hyperdrive engines being able to fly without the force" from ? They were used by SITH or Dark Jedi - so...force users.

c)
Even if the SF can steal technology they first need some source for that and while the SF might be able to build ISD's and TIE-Fighters I doubt it's big enough to spit out an Executor class ship or a Death Star.



And according to Lucas own idea about SW (all stormtroopers = clones) the Empire must have produced more than 250 million clones in 19 years or 1500 clones per hour average and they are superior to droids.

Then just have a look at the Imperial Navy's "cookies":
14 Executor class ships
weapons (each):
350 heavy turbo laser batteries
350 light turbo laster batteries
250 missle launchers
250 ion canons
40 tractor beams
(all numbers that weren't corrected when they corrected the length from 8 to 19 kilometres)


4 ships of a "Souvereign class"
500 heavy turbolasers
500 light turbolasers
75 ion cannons
100 tractor beams
Gravity well projector

Eclipse class ships
several thousand turbolasers
a superlaser canon capable to crack the crust of a planet
600 TIE-Interceptors
96 TIE-Bombers
150,000 Storm Troopers

Now just add the Galaxy gun, two Death Stars (+ 1 prototype) and the Sun Hammer, serveral Dark Jedi (the Emperors Hands and people like Jerec), DE Sidious (force storm !), Vader or a military genious like Thrawn (who plays in Revan's league as far as we know) and I can't believe that the Infinite Empire would be able to take the Galactic Empire despite of the fact they have the Star Forge.

On the stromtroopers = clones part

http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/613/613366p1.html.

So that lowers the power of the recruites quite a bit, and also doesn't mean much about their ability to create clones anymore. And actually I think the Star Forge is a great tool here but nothing more. Still the GE powerful as it is has no force users. In straight up battles the IE stands no chance even ground battles you have convinced me of that much, but you can still sneak around.



A) Wrong. Revan wore the robes before he went to the Star Forge for the first time. It makes no sense that they are called Star Forge Robes later on. But they probably just are because the robes were created by the Star Forge. But we know Revan had those robes before he ever went to the Star Forge. That the Star Forge can create light side robes is still incredibly stupid but okay...

B)Yeah there were plenty of force users, but okay I have no real evidence, it just seems strange that every ship would be powered by force users. Still possible but okay.

C)Hell no, its not going to stand a chance in hell of building a thing like that. At least I don't think so, of course I could be wrong but still. Even so Nai, the Rakatan do have the power to adopt to technology. And although an SSD would still be damn hard to take down, its not completely impossible.

But again for the Rakatan full out battles have to be prevented especially against larger fleets. Once they steal information and technology they can start fighting against more powerful fleets with ISD's but until that time... Stay the hell away. Still how hard could it be to capture one of those things with force users?



First: I never said otherwise, heavily outnumbered but they have the force.

Second: Well controlling a ship and taking out a droid is going to have some kind of difference.

Third: You actually believe that the Rakatan controlled the Dark Side of the force because they needed to conquer other races and needed to build a powerful empire?

I still believe that if the Rakatan play this smart, the Empire will lose. I mean it lost against the rebellion because of stupid mistakes. The Rakatan are going to have some edges that the rebellion did not have. And they might actually use those things to win.

Originally posted by Fishy
C)Hell no, its not going to stand a chance in hell of building a thing like that. At least I don't think so, of course I could be wrong but still. Even so Nai, the Rakatan do have the power to adopt to technology. And although an SSD would still be damn hard to take down, its not completely impossible.

The Rakata don't have the power to adopt to technology. It was the engineers from the Sith Fleet that adopted it to a technology they already knew about.

But again for the Rakatan full out battles have to be prevented especially against larger fleets. Once they steal information and technology they can start fighting against more powerful fleets with ISD's but until that time... Stay the hell away. Still how hard could it be to capture one of those things with force users?

Very hard. And even if they got it, like I said above, they wouldn't be able to replicate it. Could Archimedes build a Porche even with a model to build from?


First: I never said otherwise, heavily outnumbered but they have the force.

Second: Well controlling a ship and taking out a droid is going to have some kind of difference.

Third: You actually believe that the Rakatan controlled the Dark Side of the force because they needed to conquer other races and needed to build a powerful empire?

They are worse of than the Jedi in the Purge here. The Empire has honed force user hunting technology for years.

Even if they were equal with relativly powerful force users(Akk Guards) they still would lose. 24 Clones killed 6 Akk Guards. Nick Rostu was there as was Mace Windu, but the Akk Guards were allied with Kav Vastor and Depa.

I still believe that if the Rakatan play this smart, the Empire will lose. I mean it lost against the rebellion because of stupid mistakes. The Rakatan are going to have some edges that the rebellion did not have. And they might actually use those things to win.

A civilization of bunch(far from a billion, IMO) will be enough to get Palpatine to take them very seriously.

Second, if Thrawn plays a part in this, the Rakata will be crushed. Thrawn's forces were outnumbered by a ton. He had something like 10 ISD's. He managed to destroy 10 percent of the Republic Fleet and cause massive damage to another thirty percent. This was all which out numbered by a ton. The GE has shown the ability to work well whilc outnumbered, but the Rakata have shown no such thing.



Third, as more of a side note, the Star Forge doesn't mean victory against the GE.

There were 25,000 ISD's built in 20 years max, probably closer to 10 or 15(beause of design time. the Venator was by far the main ship of the clone wars.)

That's more than 1000 ISD per year. A ISD is more than ten times as massive as the Leviathan, the biggest Rakata ship thus far seen.

There were 54 support ships for each ISD. That's 55,000 ships per year.

Next, the ISD is FAR from the biggest GE Ship. There were the SSD, the Soverigns, the Eclipse's, the World Devastators, thousands of Dreadnoughts, hundreds or even thousands of Nebula Frigates, thousands of Corellian Corvetts and Corellian Gunships, ect.

It takes the Empire about 10 hours to build an ISD. The build other attack ships for JUST the ISD line at a rate of about six per hour.

The Rakata, even with full production from the Star Forge, can't compete, especiall with the Empires 55,000 ships per second JUST for the ISD line.


As another side note, the Rakata have about 500 planets. The Empire has about 1,000,000-51,000,000. I'm not sure which, so we will go with the worst case figure of 1,000,000.

1,000,000/500=2000. The G. Empire has at minimum two thousand planets for every one the Rakata had. If we take best case, the G. Empire had 102,000 planets for every one planet the Rakata had. Their resources are just to low.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract


The trick is to know which planets to defend. The Imperium of Man has only 1 space marine for every 100 planets or something, and yet manages to survive despite every stomping on it. Anyways, what about the Strategic and Tactical leadership of the two sides? Does the IE have an equivalent to Thrawn or Sidious?

Okay with let me just explain why I think the Rakatan will win because this is going in circles

- We know that the Ratakan have a billion force users that use the Dark Side of the force and know what the force is. It would be logical for them to actually use force techniques.

Especially when you consider that the elders recognised the techniques Revan and Malak used as the use of the force. They would probably not do that unless they had a good understanding of it. And that is after god knows how many years of war and losing information and not seeing the force being used. I mean seriously the Rakatan would have to have a great understanding of the force, and by all logic be able to use the force quite well.

If the Rakatan understand the force which they do. Then they would have been trained in the use of the force for a very long time. And they would train their children with the force because they were all force sensitive, at least at the height of their Empire. After that the plague started appearing they started losing their connection to the force and they lost the power to control the Star Forge.

On the Star Forge, we know that people more powerful then DS Bastila (In Kotor II), who when much weaker took out a Dark Jedi defending Revan, were not powerful enough to control the piece of shit.

So its very likely that the Ratakan know force techniques and were quite powerful to control the power of the Star Forge (More powerful then Kotor II DS Bastila at least).

Now the most powerful Rakatan would have been more powerful then Bastila and would know force techniques.

Now of course it is possible that the guy was just a bit more powerful then Bastila and all the rest was a lot lower then that, but that just sounds so incredibly stupid. You do not create a warrior race who's only purpose is to fight and enslave without training your warriors. Just think about the Mandelorians, these guys were the greatest around because of their training. The Rakatan are a warrior race, and a warrior race is trained from early on. The Rakatan would by all logic control the force quite well and be quite experienced with it.

So seriously, you can argue this but its very likely that the Rakatan had a lot of powerful force users. And quite a few more powerful then Bastila seeing as they survived for many years and had several leaders that controlled the Star Forge.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Empire for that matter has the technology and numbers for this war. But against force users a fight is going to stay hard... No matter what, the Rakatan would just have to start playing like the Rebellion. Keeping the unknown world as base.

The Star Forge could only be destroyed by one weapon and that weapon can be taken out by one single noob force user, the Rakatan are very likely more powerful then that they could take out the Death Star. The other Death Star just orbits above Endor doing absolutely nothing and only becoming dangerous when attacked.

Now of course Thrawn is a military genius, and unfortunately I never read any of his books, but is he able to fight a guerrilla war. Its a completely different war then anything he has probably ever fought although I have to admit i'm not sure about that. Even if he is he's still going to face force users, and that is he is going to be put in command of anything important. Afterall he wasn't in command in any of the most important battles the Empire fought (Yavin, Endor). So why would he be here?
----------------------------------

Now on the technological thing.

You say the Sith did it, this is of course possible but unlikely. If Revan would have put the design for his robes in the Star Forge then why would he have put a lightside version design in the Star Forge? It makes no sense he isn't on the light side. And if he did which is just really really really strange and not something that a smart person let alone stand Revan would do. And why if he did put the designs in the Star Forge was he the only one that used it.

It would only be logical if the Star Forge analysed the clothes Revan wore the first time and would then use the force to recreate it when Revan asked for it. This seems to be the only logical explanation there is.
---------------------------------

And then you have the obvious ramming option. Create a droid, create a ship let the droid fly the ship and bam there you have it. No more SSD. I mean this could very well be done. Especially if the Rakatan manage to steal an Star Destroyer and use that technology instead of their own. SD's have hyperspace travel without the force. Probably slower then that of the Rakatan with the force, or maybe just as fast because of new technology, fact remains its going to do a lot of damage.

This isn't going to be a normal war. This is going to be completely different in all regards. The Empire will win if all they have is suddenly dropped into one system and the two will have to face each other. But thats not going to happen.

Originally posted by Gryn Jabar
The trick is to know which planets to defend. The Imperium of Man has only 1 space marine for every 100 planets or something, and yet manages to survive despite every stomping on it. Anyways, what about the Strategic and Tactical leadership of the two sides? Does the IE have an equivalent to Thrawn or Sidious?

Nothing, we know they were quite cruel and fought a lot of wars though. Including wars against their own. They would probably have some great generals, I don't know if its on the level of Thrawn and can't claim that. But the generals would at least have an good understanding of war.

I'm curious... where did we get the exact idea that the Leviathan is smaller than a Star Destroyer?

I have no idea actually...

Well, remember that sig I made you, Fishy? It's from a wallpaper showing the Ebon Hawk escaping from the clutches of the Leviathan. Since the Ebon Hawk is damn near the same size as the Falcon in ANH port scene, it's possible that the Leviathan could be the only slightly smaller than the Executer. For sure, the Ravager appears even larger still.

Could be but thats just very hard to say... Optical illusions and all, but it would actually be nice if we had something to proof that the SSD's and SD's are bigger then the Leviathan.

on star wars.com they give sizes of ships in meters so chek it our there

Even KOTOR ships?

The SSD=19,000 meters and the Leviathan=600 meters.

So thats about half of a Star Destroyer.

Pretty much.

Source?

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Source?

starwars.com. Checked it out. He's right.

Originally posted by Fishy
So thats about half of a Star Destroyer.

Half in length, not mass, which is what really counts. A ISD is over ten times more massive and almost three times as long.

Ah. So the Levithan is huge. I remember thinking that originally... wasn't sure why. I might have looked it up on STarwars.com before.

Does the site give anything other than length for older KOTOR era ships?

Like what?

I don't think I was thinking properly. I meant the ISD is huge. Whoops.

They also give weapons.

Armaments. List of weapons, anything other than its length? I'd look it up myself, but I'm at work and that site would be hell to load on this POS.

The Leviathans weapons are listed as this. 20 quad laser cannons; 4 gravity well projectors; tractor beam; 2 ion cannons; 4 turbolasers. Well there ya go.

Thanks.

Hm. That seems pretty low considering the firepower that came out of that thing. Hell, even the Harbinger had a hardcore lineup of turbolasers.

And if anyone's willing, the ISD's formidable aresenal?

I'll get that for ya.

It would be wasted by an ISD. The ISD hos 15 times more turboloasers and 30 times more ion canons. Gravity well projecters you don't want running against a more powerful fleet and the quad lasers will be ineffective against the ISD's powerful shields.

Thanks. I'm trying to load sw.com... ack... These work computers suck.

They got nothing for ISDs on SW.com.

60 turbo's. 60 ions. 10 tractor beams. 72 tie fighters.

that's the weaker ISD.

the ISD model two had 100 turbos, 20 ions, and 10 tractor beams.

The surface of the Executor was dotted with all sorts of weaponry. Its front arc was covered by 200 heavy and light turbolaser batteries, 50 concussion missile launchers, 100 ion cannons, and 20 tractor beam projectors. Its side arcs each boasted coverage by 75 light turbolaser batteries and 50 heavy turbolaser batteries, as well as 75 missile tubes, 50 ion cannons and 10 tractor beam projectors. The rear arc, traditionally the least defended area of a vessel, had an impressive weapons array of 50 heavy turbolaser batteries, 50 missile tubes, and 50 ion cannons.

This is from Starwars.com, information on the arsenal of just one SSD, the Executor. This seems more than enough to me to take on a large portion of the Ratakan fleet.

Wow! Talk about firepower.

Yeah. The Executor could hold its own with probably the Leviathan, Harbinger AND the Ravager at once.

The Empire has at least 14 of those.

Then again it also makes them look bad. I mean all that and they lose to the Rebel Alliance.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Yeah. The Executor could hold its own with probably the Leviathan, Harbinger AND the Ravager at once.

Ohhhhhh! Far more than that. It outguns the Leviathan over 200 hundred to one. There is something funny about the Empire that leads to their extreme power.


They made HUGE advancements in turbolaser technology. The Hapan turbolasers were the common turbolasre before the Empire. The Imperials enhanced the turbolaser to equal three turbolasers of Hapan origin in firepower.

The Harbringer is weaker than the Leviathan and the Ravager I don't know much about, but it appears to be about 1400 meters long in KOTOR 2 during the second battle of Telos. This can be seen from the ships surrounding it that appear to be the same class as the Leviathan.

A single ISD could take all three.

Well, the emperor was slain. Cut off the head and the body will fall. Technically the Empire wasn't beaten, but the death of its undisputed leader brought about factionism and division that made it break up.

Really, the Rebels had no chance at the Empire other than to attack its weakest point (And they were -very- lucky in their attacks on Yavin and Endor. Very very damn lucky)

It is doubtful the Ratakan would have this sort of luck. Most certainly, Sidious would treat them as a serious threat and eliminate them, then claim the Star Forge for himself. Hiliarity ensues.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
Then again it also makes them look bad. I mean all that and they lose to the Rebel Alliance.

They lost because of civil war among themself. The New Republic never managed to come close to the GE in Naval power.

So it IS official; KOTOR era ships are far outgunned. I take back my earlier argument on the Mandalorians winning against the Republic.

Technology such as hand blasters didn't go up a lot, but when the Empire was born, military technology took a huge leap.

The Eclipse is even more powerful than the SSD.

At least they provided a logical sense of realism by making older ships smaller and weaker.

That would suck if I went to SW.com and suddenly the Leviathan was 10,000 meters long and had three thousand turbolasers.

It would also be nonsensical. BTW nice sig Glentract.

Thanks. Janus did a great job on it.

Pfft. That was a quickly made one. I'll get you a better quality one later if you want.

Even if you made it fast, it's a lot better than that one I had with my sn spelled wrong.

Please could you make this thread interesting to read - add some nice little knock knock jokes or puns inbetween how many guns a ship has - cos this thread is so dull

That isn't the purpose here. Go read a joke book and shut it.

ignore

You haven't shown that the Rakata could build an ISD. Good god Fishy, what happened to your intelligence! Now your claiming that the Rakata with the Force could move faster than the hyperdrives that they switched over to.

Originally posted by Fishy
This isn't going to be a normal war. This is going to be completely different in all regards. The Empire will win if all they have is suddenly dropped into one system and the two will have to face each other. But thats not going to happen.

How is the Rakata going to win if that doesn't happen? Are you talking gorilla war? Thrawn would waste them. A long drawn out war? The GE has over 2000 thousand times the resources. The actual number could be closer to 102,000 times the resources.




Alright, it's side note time.

Firstly, concerning hyperdrives.

The Rakata chose to use hyperdrives before they lost their force connection. Why do I say this? Because they must have needed a lot of time to create it. You don't just pull a technology that would forever change the galaxy out off you butt, it takes time to make, a long time. Near the end of the Infinite Empire, the Rakata were in no condition to be inventing anything. It makes sense that they chose this because they were better than hyperdrives.

Next, we know that the hyperdirves they invented weren't very fast, but they still chose them over their own Force powered method of travel. How I can see that they were slow is because they were quoted in KOTOR as what brought hyperdrives to the rest of the galaxy. They weren't really fast and then slowed down in KOTOR and 600 years before the rise fo the GE. They must have always been slow. This also makes sense because the Infinite Empire spanned only 500 planets. Frequent long distance travel must have been far more difficult to keep them so limited.


I'm tired of typing. I'll put more later.

Damn.

Wow, thanks for attacking a tiny piece of it. Fishy even said a straight brawl would result in Rakata genocide. I tried to sound like I agree by talking about how the GE ships are several times more powerful. The Rakata would try a straight fight at least once before they learned Imperial might though.

Lets make a tally type thing. After reading the above arguments, just say who you think would win.

Just put:

Vote: Galatic Empire or Vote: Infinite Empire


My vote: Galatic Empire.

GE wins.

GE wins.

And the word "adopt" has been used incorrectly so many times on this site.

"adopt" means to take in like a orphan.

"adapt" means to change to fit the demands of the environment around you.

i don't know about that!! an "entire legion of my(emperor)best troops" couldn't defeat the ewoks

Well they didn't ADAPT did they?

they didn't do anything!!lol

So hence, no adoption was made.....oops! I mean ADAPTION.

what could they have done to adapt??

GE easily. And DG, I wasn't attacking a part of it. I was AGREEING with you lol. I was merely remarking unless they had some sort of Rommel guy who would somehow manage to say, hit them at the flanks hard enough to cause a "klendathu" type situtation, they aren't going to win this.

Okay. I thought you were saying that in a different way.

I could swear "Klendathu" was a planet in Starship Stroopers.

It is. The Federation navy got whooped because they tried to do some funky flanking attack and ending up ramming each other. In the book it sounds cool. In the movie it looks like they tried to change lanes and failed.

Interesting how Federation navy's definition of point blank range is a few kilometers. In ROTJ, rebel and Imperial ships are exchanging fire in hundred and even thousands of kilometeres apart, and three dimensionally as well.

The writers of ST obviously don't know jack about the military and it shows.

I'm talking about Starship Troopers. The reason they were so close together is due to the fact they were doing a drop on a planet when they starting recieving serious StA fire.

Starship Troopers, eh? Gory flick. Never read the book. Worthwhile?

Isn't it a movie too?

Hence the term flick.

Am I that old? Damn. Here's five cents... get me a soda pop, sonny boy!

Five cents for a soda? Are you crazy! Take this car too.


It was a good movie.

Very gory. I was rather shocked at the level of random gore involved in it. While it was okay in retrospect, it wasn't totally neccessary in some cases. If I wanted realistic gore I'd watch Saving Private Ryan or OR SUgerical team specials. Sci-fi should be as gory as a good rugby match, really.

True. The part with the bug was a little strange. (Putting a thousand+ rounds into it's brain and then sticking a grenade in the recently formed hole in it's head.)

Movie has nothing on the book. Book is at least semi realistic.

It was a decent movie, fun to.

But yeah, when they were about to land their troops, they just ran right into those blue balls death.

Wouldn't the Empire's superweapons combined with Thrawn's genius and DE Sidious's Force storm (which is capable of wiping out fleets in itself) be enough to take out the Infinite Empire?

You're a bit late dude. I already proved the Empire crushes them.