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Kyp vs. Dooku.

Location: Invisible Hand. Kyp is basically taking Anakin and Obi-wans place for this fight.

I think Dooku might take him, though I could be wrong.

I think Dooku would school Kyp.

The same Kyp who was able to do the same thing Luke did to a black hole? Kyp is really good by NJO, second in the NJO.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The same Kyp who was able to do the same thing Luke did to a black hole? Kyp is really good by NJO, second in the NJO.

Well...no. Jaina, Jacen and Anakin Solo are better than Kyp I think at least they have more raw potential. In terms of force skills many NJO people might be better than Dooku but I don't think that many of them would be able to surpass Dooku in terms of lightsaber combat.

Hey...Dooku had 8 decades of practice with force use and lightsaber combat where Luke had 3 decades and all other people 2 decades max of training. Of course they have some nice force powers but I doubt that would help them much against Dooku.

Is Kyp able to survive Sith Lightning ? Is Kyp able to outduel Dooku who was compareable to Mace Windu (a lightsaber prodigy) and Yoda ? I pretty much doubt that.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...no. Jaina, Jacen and Anakin Solo are better than Kyp I think at least they have more raw potential. In terms of force skills many NJO people might be better than Dooku but I don't think that many of them would be able to surpass Dooku in terms of lightsaber combat.

Is Kyp able to survive Sith Lightning ? Is Kyp able to outduel Dooku who was compareable to Mace Windu (a lightsaber prodigy) and Yoda ? I pretty much doubt that.

Have you read all the NJO? Kyp's force potential is really high. Luke once said Kyp's potential was close to his own, but has said nothing like that towards Jacen, Jaina, or Anakin.

They have their own lightning in the NJO. Not only can they block it, they can throw it. Remember, NJO Jedi call upon the Darkside(if you can actually call them Jedi, that is). Remember that whole Unifying force thing? That allows Kyp to use Darkside powers. So Sith Lightning shouldn't be a problem.

In lightsaber combat, well, it seems like he would be good. He fought a war against enemies who use melee weapons as their primary weapon.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Have you read all the NJO? Kyp's force potential is really high. Luke once said Kyp's potential was close to his own, but has said nothing like that towards Jacen, Jaina, or Anakin.

Jacen, Jaina and Anakin were still Skywalkers. And Kyp's force potential being close to Luke's ? Whoever came up with that stuff should never think of writing SW books. Kyp failed trying to outduel one YV slayer where Luke took 7 of them at once. I don't call that "close".



The ability to use lightning doesn't mean you can deflect it. Deflect / redirect and absorb energy are Jedi powers and require quite some skill level. Only people able to use deflect / redirect or absorb Sith Lightning are Mace, Yoda, Dooku and Sidious himself.



He still lost against one of their better fighters and none of the YV had several decades experience in a fighting style designed to fight force users aimed with lightsabers like Dooku.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Jacen, Jaina and Anakin were still Skywalkers. And Kyp's force potential being close to Luke's ? Whoever came up with that stuff should never think of writing SW books. Kyp failed trying to outduel one YV slayer where Luke took 7 of them at once. I don't call that "close".

Luke had Jacen and Jaina with him. These Slayer dudes were good. They were able to be hit in the same place several times with a lightsaber and not be cut by it. Luke instakilled one of them. Plus, this is Luke we're talking about. Luke would waste Dooku. And Kyp having the raw power doesn't mean he has the skill. Could Anakin take Mace? No, but Anakin had far greater potential. Kyp has better training than Anakin though, giving him the edge to beat someone like Dooku.


The ability to use lightning doesn't mean you can deflect it. Deflect / redirect and absorb energy are Jedi powers and require quite some skill level. Only people able to use deflect / redirect or absorb Sith Lightning are Mace, Yoda, Dooku and Sidious himself.

So you're telling me Sith can't deflect lightning because that is a Jedi power? Okay then, I think I am going to join the reborn and learn how to use force lightning and go kill Marka Ragnos because he is a Sith and there is nothing he can do about it.

Seriously though, AOTC Obi-wan blocked lightning with ease. If AOTC Obi-wan can do this, any Jedi Master pretty much can.

He still lost against one of their better fighters and none of the YV had several decades experience in a fighting style designed to fight force users aimed with lightsabers like Dooku.

Melee is melee. It's not going to charge to much from one group to the next. Even if it is different, watch European sword fighter fight a Japanese one. Although their styles are extrmely differet styles, they can both fight the other effectivly.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Luke had Jacen and Jaina with him. These Slayer dudes were good. They were able to be hit in the same place several times with a lightsaber and not be cut by it. Luke instakilled one of them. Plus, this is Luke we're talking about. Luke would waste Dooku. And Kyp having the raw power doesn't mean he has the skill. Could Anakin take Mace? No, but Anakin had far greater potential. Kyp has better training than Anakin though, giving him the edge to beat someone like Dooku.

a)
Luke did most of the work on his own and he killed them with one single lightsaber swing each.

b)
Kyp having better training than Anakin ? I think you're talking about Anakin Skywalker but he would have better training because he was trained in a time Lucas himself called the "Golden Age of the Jedi" under Jedi like Yoda or Mace Windu and had more than 1,000 hours of lightsaber sparring fights against Obi-Wan (according to the ROTS novel). Of course he has some force powers that seem to surpass what ROTS Anakin was able to do but he has to take Dooku with a lightsaber and if Obi-Wan and Anakin, both with 1,000+ hours of lightsaber practice fights and 3 years of war experience (including fights with people like Asajj Ventress and Dooku himself) can't take Dooku I don't think Kyp can do that.



Deflect Sith Lightning is not a Jedi power. It's based on force defence. Do you think that Kyp's force defence is as good as that of Yoda and Mace ? When you have a look at the WotC SW RPG stats (which I hate but they are Lucas approved) Yoda's force defence is almost twice as good as the force defence of NJO Luke.

Of course Kyp can deflect Sith Lightning with his lightsaber (I guess he can) but what would stop Dooku from duelling Kyp with one hand (which is part of his style) and use Sith Lightning with the other hand (which he could as seen in AotC) ?



Force users are different from normal melee combatants because they are simply faster, have better reactions and can perform actions that are impossible for a normal person. Do you think even the best swordfighter on earth would have a chance to defeat a Jedi / Sith with lightning fast reflexes (even if their weapons would be able to withstand lightsaber hits) ? I doubt it...

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
a)
Luke did most of the work on his own and he killed them with one single lightsaber swing each.

That's an EU inconsistency.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
b)
Kyp having better training than Anakin ? I think you're talking about Anakin Skywalker but he would have better training because he was trained in a time Lucas himself called the "Golden Age of the Jedi" under Jedi like Yoda or Mace Windu and had more than 1,000 hours of lightsaber sparring fights against Obi-Wan (according to the ROTS novel). Of course he has some force powers that seem to surpass what ROTS Anakin was able to do but he has to take Dooku with a lightsaber and if Obi-Wan and Anakin, both with 1,000+ hours of lightsaber practice fights and 3 years of war experience (including fights with people like Asajj Ventress and Dooku himself) can't take Dooku I don't think Kyp can do that.

Anakin was trained by Mace and Yoda, but Kyp was trained by Luke and Luke is far more powerful than Mace or Yoda. Kyp started sparring as soon as he started his Jedi Training. Okay, it was about two weeks after, but he has sparred Jedi more than Anakin has. Now, I don't see Dooku fairing well against Kyp using only one hand, nor has Dooku ever been shown to be able to use lightning while lightsaber fighting. Anakin has three years war experince, Kyp has over ten years war experince. War experince is one of the reasons that NJO Jedi got so powerful so fast, they live in a state of War.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Deflect Sith Lightning is not a Jedi power. It's based on force defence. Do you think that Kyp's force defence is as good as that of Yoda and Mace ? When you have a look at the WotC SW RPG stats (which I hate but they are Lucas approved) Yoda's force defence is almost twice as good as the force defence of NJO Luke.

Yes, Kyp probably has force defense on their level. Even if he doesn't, does it matter. His force defense is FAR passed AOTC Obi-wans. Those stats suck. They are like the Clone Wars Cartoon, completly unreasonable.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Of course Kyp can deflect Sith Lightning with his lightsaber (I guess he can) but what would stop Dooku from duelling Kyp with one hand (which is part of his style) and use Sith Lightning with the other hand (which he could as seen in AotC) ?

Dooku hasn't shown the ability to do that while fighting with a lightsaber. Kyp favors heavy power in his strikes. There is no way Dooku will be able to block his attacks with one hand. The ROTS novel says that Makashi users suffer from the lack of ability to generate a lot of physical power, and that's at least as reputable as any stats you can give for them.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Force users are different from normal melee combatants because they are simply faster, have better reactions and can perform actions that are impossible for a normal person. Do you think even the best swordfighter on earth would have a chance to defeat a Jedi / Sith with lightning fast reflexes (even if their weapons would be able to withstand lightsaber hits) ? I doubt it...

Nai, Echani. Mandalorians. Yuuzhan Vong. All are non-force users and all have killed Jedi in melee. (actually, I'm not sure in the Echani have.) On Earth, it's certainly possible. The forc isn't the only way to detect people's movements. Now, the best human against a common Jedi, the human would have a chance. Against Kyp or Dooku, you are right, no chance.

this is kinda off topic or maybe its just utterly wrong. to me the NJO jedi don't have the proper fighting techniques. like the jedi of th PT era actually had forma and masters of each form that had been taught to others and such. Luke in no way could teach his students the 7 forms. he just doesnt know them. and even if ben or yoda explained them to him so what you could explain it to anyone but that doesnt make them able to teach it. that does make sense right? well i hope so but thats just a point i wanted to share. i'd say dooku wins. better knowledge of the force and is one great fighter.

ya kyp may have fought in harsh wars but that doesnt make his style of fighting that good and he wasnt fighting other force users on par with dooku's lvl

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That's an EU inconsistency.

No. It isn't. It's a display of force aided physical strength. And you can even see that in the films. In ROTS Dooku is able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan with one hand (he's holding his lightsaber in a horizontal position while Obi-Wan and Anakin hit it from above) while he was using both hands against Yoda when engaging in a saberlock and Yoda still pushed him back.



Kyp started sparring as soon as he started Jedi Training ? Did you notice that Luke was the only person having a lightsaber in the Jedi Academy ? At the end of the Jedi Academy Trilogy they had two lightsabers: Luke's and the one Gantoris constructed.



Why the hell would Kyp have sparred Jedi more than Anakin has considering the fact that there were around 10,000 Jedi in the time from TPM to AotC and much less in Kyp's time ?



Using one hand is part of Dooku's style and when he can deal with Anakin and Obi-Wan at once why would he not be able to fight well against Kyp ?
And the reason the NJO Jedi got so powerful is that they don't limit themselves much with "moral" issues (using both sides of the force) and Luke discovered some sources the Jedi didn't have (the entire "making stuff invisible thing" or "creating illusions".



How would he ?



You don't have to generate physical power to counter physical power. Being a fencer like Dooku you would simply redirect the physical power. Hell...if you try to counter physical power with physical power with "normal" blades the result will be some broken weapons.



Give me the name of one single Echani, Mandalorian or non-force user that did kill a Jedi in direct melee combat...In fact in every single situation somebody is talking of a non-force-user fighting a Jedi the non-force-user get creamed (Yusanis, Mandalore) unless they use assasination tactics (Atton, HK-47). So ?

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
No. It isn't. It's a display of force aided physical strength. And you can even see that in the films. In ROTS Dooku is able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan with one hand (he's holding his lightsaber in a horizontal position while Obi-Wan and Anakin hit it from above) while he was using both hands against Yoda when engaging in a saberlock and Yoda still pushed him back.

So what if he blocked Obi-wan and Anakin. I am saying that Kyp is more powerful than either of them.


Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Kyp started sparring as soon as he started Jedi Training ? Did you notice that Luke was the only person having a lightsaber in the Jedi Academy ? At the end of the Jedi Academy Trilogy they had two lightsabers: Luke's and the one Gantoris constructed.

I guess you haven't read the book. Corran had one, as well as Mara and Kam. Luke had mutiple, which it makes sense that he used them to have his students spar.


Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Why the hell would Kyp have sparred Jedi more than Anakin has considering the fact that there were around 10,000 Jedi in the time from TPM to AotC and much less in Kyp's time ?

Less Jedi, but more sparring. He can spar the same Jedi twice.


Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Using one hand is part of Dooku's style and when he can deal with Anakin and Obi-Wan at once why would he not be able to fight well against Kyp ?
And the reason the NJO Jedi got so powerful is that they don't limit themselves much with "moral" issues (using both sides of the force) and Luke discovered some sources the Jedi didn't have (the entire "making stuff invisible thing" or "creating illusions".

Because Kyp is more powerful than either of them. That isn't the sole reason. Much of it can in fact be contributed to their experince in war. Reguarless, even you agree NJO Jedi are extremely powerful.


Originally posted by Nai Fohl
How would he ?

Because he has the raw power and the training.


Originally posted by Nai Fohl
You don't have to generate physical power to counter physical power. Being a fencer like Dooku you would simply redirect the physical power. Hell...if you try to counter physical power with physical power with "normal" blades the result will be some broken weapons.

You're not going to break a lightsaber blade. And show that Dooku can redirect power more easily than Kyp can generate it.


Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Give me the name of one single Echani, Mandalorian or non-force user that did kill a Jedi in direct melee combat...In fact in every single situation somebody is talking of a non-force-user fighting a Jedi the non-force-user get creamed (Yusanis, Mandalore) unless they use assasination tactics (Atton, HK-47). So ?

The Mandalorians fought an entire war against the Jedi. Actually, they fought two. You think that because I don't have any names, they never killed a Jedi? We've seen them praticing with blades, they do use them against them.

Non-force user. Okay. Over fifty Jedi were killed by Vong, one of which was a Old Republic Jedi.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So what if he blocked Obi-wan and Anakin. I am saying that Kyp is more powerful than either of them.

He parried them both at the same time. Do you want to tell me that Kyp is stronger than Anakin and Obi-Wan together ?



And I guess you didn't read my post. You said that Kyp started practicing against other Jedi when he started his training (Jedi Academy trilogy) and there are only two lightsabers on Yavin 4 at that time. One being Luke's lightsaber and the other one was built by Gantoris. Period.



Oh great. Proof that he went to more than 1,000 hours of sparing completely ignoring the fact that Luke wasn't focused on lightsaber combat as much as the PT Jedi. And even if you can proof that - had he ever fought people like Mace (a lightsaber prodigy), Yoda, Anakin or Obi-Wan ? I doubt that.



People having more training and more raw power (Anakin) are nowhere near Mace or Yoda in terms of force defence but Kyp is ?



Redirecting power can be done by simply positioning the blade in a certain degree. If Dooku had problems with Anakin (who has a mechanical arm and is stronger than Kyp - note that he was holding the weight of himself, Obi-Wan and Palpatine during their escape from the Invisible Hand with that arm) he would have used both hands - and he didn't. And if the novel contradicts the movie the movie is right. Sorry...



The Mandalorians fought an entire war against the Jedi and republic troops. Yes. We see them practicing with blades in KotoR 2 and then the best of the Mandalorian Champions (!) tells us that he wasn't able to overcome a Jedi in direct confrontation during the war. Hmm...so who would be able to do that when the champs can't do it. Mandalore himself ?



Killed by people wearing armours that can't be penetrated by lightsabers, can't be affected by the force and wield weapon that can withstand lightsaber hits ? The Vong aren't "the biggest threat the galaxy has ever seen" without a reason...

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
He parried them both at the same time. Do you want to tell me that Kyp is stronger than Anakin and Obi-Wan together ?

Yes, that is what I am saying. Dooku is more powerful than both of them, and I'm saying Kyp is more powerful than Dooku. Add it up.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
And I guess you didn't read my post. You said that Kyp started practicing against other Jedi when he started his training (Jedi Academy trilogy) and there are only two lightsabers on Yavin 4 at that time. One being Luke's lightsaber and the other one was built by Gantoris. Period.

Corran and Kam both got there before him. There were more than just two lightsabers! Where did you get that crap?

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Oh great. Proof that he went to more than 1,000 hours of sparing completely ignoring the fact that Luke wasn't focused on lightsaber combat as much as the PT Jedi. And even if you can proof that - had he ever fought people like Mace (a lightsaber prodigy), Yoda, Anakin or Obi-Wan ? I doubt that.

Prove that Luke as focused on lightsaber combat as PT Jedi. He had them sparring within two weeks of getting there! That's faster than any PT Jedi. Yes, he did fight powerful people. He fought Luke, Jacen, Corran, Kyle. Any of those people could give Anakin or Obi-wan a very hard time, and he beat them all.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
People having more training and more raw power (Anakin) are nowhere near Mace or Yoda in terms of force defence but Kyp is ?

Please read your post. It sounds stupid. Since when does Anakin have more training than Kyp? And Anakin's power doesn't seem like it was far above Kyp's. Anakin has 13 years. Kyp has 19 years. Kyp advanced more in two weeks than the other students did in six. Anakin didn't seem to be advancing three times as fast as everyone around him. Now, Kyp probably slowed down after a while. Anakin proably didn't slow down as soon. Still, Kyp has six years more training. Six more years of Luke's training, which allows students to gain power more quickly than the PT Jedi did, but also pushes them closer to the Darkside.


Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Redirecting power can be done by simply positioning the blade in a certain degree. If Dooku had problems with Anakin (who has a mechanical arm and is stronger than Kyp - note that he was holding the weight of himself, Obi-Wan and Palpatine during their escape from the Invisible Hand with that arm) he would have used both hands - and he didn't. And if the novel contradicts the movie the movie is right. Sorry...

Anakin held all three of them in the Clone Wars Cartoon. This is preposterous to use in debates because even though it is Lucas approved, it goes agains the movies. Mace as seen in the Clone Wars could have killed every droid on Geonosis by himself. They are vastly exxagerated in that.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The Mandalorians fought an entire war against the Jedi and republic troops. Yes. We see them practicing with blades in KotoR 2 and then the best of the Mandalorian Champions (!) tells us that he wasn't able to overcome a Jedi in direct confrontation during the war. Hmm...so who would be able to do that when the champs can't do it. Mandalore himself ?

Look at it another way. A Mandalorian was able to give Ulic fits. Ulic is a TON more powerful than Dooku. I woudn't be surprised if Ulic could take Dooku, Anakin, and Obi-wan by himself. The fact that a Mandalorian, any non-force user for that matter, gave Ulic difficulty is AMAZING. We're talking a guy who could take Yoda.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Killed by people wearing armours that can't be penetrated by lightsabers, can't be affected by the force and wield weapon that can withstand lightsaber hits ? The Vong aren't "the biggest threat the galaxy has ever seen" without a reason...

You just argued for Kyp. Him killing so many of them is testament to his power.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yes, that is what I am saying. Dooku is more powerful than both of them, and I'm saying Kyp is more powerful than Dooku. Add it up.

I was talking about physical strength. Not power.



Read the Jedi Academy trilogy and count how many lightsabers are used there. Always comes down to Luke's and the one Gantoris used. How would Corran Horn have a lightsaber before starting training in the academy - he was a fighter pilot in the Rogue Squadron. For Kam I'm not sure but the only people fighting with lightsabers in the JA trilogy are Luke and Gantoris (Luke defeats Gantoris), Jacen (killing beasts using Luke's lightsaber) and two of Luke's students (using Gantoris and Luke's lightsaber to overcome Kun).

If you just didn't realize it: Building your own lightsaber was the last test before becoming a Jedi Knight so non of Luke's student did have a lightsaber and I don't remember any "practice fights" in the JA trilogy.



Where did Luke made his students sparring eachothers ? And when did Kyp fight all those people ?



What the hell, Glentract ?
First off Anakin was trained for 10 years (before the Clone Wars started), while Kyp didn't really had that amount of "training". Yes he did advance fast but he hadn't Luke potential which is - by any logic - less than Anakin's.
And Anakin didn't advance fast ? He became Jedi Knight aftter 12 or 13 years of Jedi training (as fast as Mace, twice as fast compared to Obi-Wan himself) and was about to become a regular Council Member in the age of 22 (this is what Obi-Wan in ROTS told him and he would have been the youngest Council Member ever).

And Luke trained his students like Yoda trained him: That's basically a VERY compressed Jedi Training to give them some basics. Luke himself told Kyp that the ability to do something is all you need you have to understand what you doing. And you won't convince me that somebody with 2 decades of experience in force practice and lightsaber fighting practice would be superior to somebody who has 8 decades experience in both.



No. I said "during the escape from the invisible hand". He did that in ROTS (!) and not in the Cartoons. When they were running through the elevator shaft and the ship turned again you can see Anakin grabing on something with his mechanical hand while having Obi-Wan on his back and Palpatine hanging on them.



Give me some proof that Ulic is more powerful than Dooku. Again somebody with less than 4 years of experience outclassing somebody with 8 decades of experience. Stop it.



He failed against a single YV slayer. And when Luke can kill them with a "force lightning like ability" what do you think Dooku would do ?

Look at it another way. A Mandalorian was able to give Ulic fits. Ulic is a TON more powerful than Dooku. I woudn't be surprised if Ulic could take Dooku, Anakin, and Obi-wan by himself. The fact that a Mandalorian, any non-force user for that matter, gave Ulic difficulty is AMAZING. We're talking a guy who could take Yoda.

Oh, please. A Mandalorian gave Ulic fits when another Mandalorian Champion couldn't overcome a Jedi? You realize that you just lowered Ulic's status?

And I would be very surprised indeed if Ulic could take this trio. Dooku alone would be a pain in the ass, and add a duo that gave Dooku himself trouble. . . You're going overboard with the Ulic stuff here.

Ulic would not take Yoda. he's good, no doubt. But I have extreme trouble believing that he can defeat a duelist who, unarmed, could evade blows from three Council members. Or simply overwhelm him with Force powers, considering the little green dude absorbed and reflected Force lightning at point-blank range.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
I was talking about physical strength. Not power.

Alright. Misunderstanding on my part. You're right there.


Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Read the Jedi Academy trilogy and count how many lightsabers are used there. Always comes down to Luke's and the one Gantoris used. How would Corran Horn have a lightsaber before starting training in the academy - he was a fighter pilot in the Rogue Squadron. For Kam I'm not sure but the only people fighting with lightsabers in the JA trilogy are Luke and Gantoris (Luke defeats Gantoris), Jacen (killing beasts using Luke's lightsaber) and two of Luke's students (using Gantoris and Luke's lightsaber to overcome Kun).

I'm talking about "I, Jedi". Same place, same time. It's written by the same author too. It shows JA from another angle(Corran's) for the first 150 or so pages. Corran got the lightsaber from his grandfather, you was a Jedi in the Clone Wars. Kam had his when he was a Dark Jedi for the Empire. Mara also had a lightsaber wheh she went there.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
If you just didn't realize it: Building your own lightsaber was the last test before becoming a Jedi Knight so non of Luke's student did have a lightsaber and I don't remember any "practice fights" in the JA trilogy.

See above. Remember, these books were written before PT, so the authors thought that all Jedi were trained like Luke. They believed that they went into training with a lightsaber. For the pratice fights, read "I, Jedi". (It's a good book to. I would recommend it in anycase.)

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Where did Luke made his students sparring eachothers ? And when did Kyp fight all those people ?

Kyp sparred Jedi during NJO. He never beat Luke(at least to my knowledge), but he was considered second only to Luke. We know he sparred them and we know he was considred better than them. That was a misstament on my part.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
What the hell, Glentract ?
First off Anakin was trained for 10 years (before the Clone Wars started), while Kyp didn't really had that amount of "training". Yes he did advance fast but he hadn't Luke potential which is - by any logic - less than Anakin's.
And Anakin didn't advance fast ? He became Jedi Knight aftter 12 or 13 years of Jedi training (as fast as Mace, twice as fast compared to Obi-Wan himself) and was about to become a regular Council Member in the age of 22 (this is what Obi-Wan in ROTS told him and he would have been the youngest Council Member ever).

12 years isn't to amazing for becoming a Knight. Luke did it in four. Jorus did it in four. I don't know exactly how long it took Kyp, but it was less than 12 I believe.

And now Luke's training is no longer "training"? Kyp began training 11 A.B.Y. and NJO goes until about 30 A.B.Y.(Somewhere between 28-30 A.B.Y.). Lets go with the lover number, 17 years by the end of NJO. Dark Nest is another eight years after that. that's 25 years of training. All except that last eight years of this is War Time. Anakin has three years War Time against Kyp's 17. Even Dooku has less War Time than Kyp.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
And Luke trained his students like Yoda trained him: That's basically a VERY compressed Jedi Training to give them some basics. Luke himself told Kyp that the ability to do something is all you need you have to understand what you doing. And you won't convince me that somebody with 2 decades of experience in force practice and lightsaber fighting practice would be superior to somebody who has 8 decades experience in both.

Luke began training them that way, but once their numbers expanded, they began taking Padawans like the old Order.

Look at it this way. Anakin advanced more in the three years of the Clone Wars than he did in the 10 years prior to that. Obi-wan advanced more in his three years in the Clone Wars than he did in the ten years before that. Now, Kyp has over five times their experince in War. It seems that War time training is FAR more effective than Temple training, which makes sense. It's similar to learning a language. I can learn more in a month in a foreign county than I can in a year in a class room.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
No. I said "during the escape from the invisible hand". He did that in ROTS (!) and not in the Cartoons. When they were running through the elevator shaft and the ship turned again you can see Anakin grabing on something with his mechanical hand while having Obi-Wan on his back and Palpatine hanging on them.

Alright. Yes, Anakin did do that. The problem I have with this though is that puny little Luke still overpowered Anakin in ROTJ.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Give me some proof that Ulic is more powerful than Dooku. Again somebody with less than 4 years of experience outclassing somebody with 8 decades of experience. Stop it.

It's Ulic. He stalemated Kun, nuff said.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
He failed against a single YV slayer. And when Luke can kill them with a "force lightning like ability" what do you think Dooku would do ?

That was NJO Kyp, and it wasn't even at the end of the NJO. It's also not force lightning. It's more similar to Kreia's instakill technique than force lightning. Jacen or Jaina(I don't remember which) used force lightning against Vong and it didn't kill them. The techniques are obviously far different.
Show me proof Dooku could defeat a slayer.

One thing though, although I agree with you overall Nai. Mandelorians did kill Jedi in combat. Very few one on one perhaps none, but still they managed to take out Jedi in a fight. Melee fights even. Just means Jedi can be killed by none force users who use swords.

And even more important, Revan is famous for killing Mandalore and Yusanis. Why would he be famous for that if it doesn't mean anything?

Does anyone know why part of my previous post in bold or is my monitor just screwed up?

You may have simply done something wrong with the coding.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Oh, please. A Mandalorian gave Ulic fits when another Mandalorian Champion couldn't overcome a Jedi? You realize that you just lowered Ulic's status?

The Mandalorian's were tattered at that point. Most of them were dead. Most of the bravest, most of the bravest, most powerful Mandalorians died at Malacor V. Revan must have had a hard time with the Mandalore he fought because it was so amazing that he defeated him. If Revan had walked in and slaughtered the Mandalore, it seems likely that they were near equal.

You can argue Revan is weak, but he defeated Malak on the Star Forge at least twice only using force powers while Malak had full force power capability.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
And I would be very surprised indeed if Ulic could take this trio. Dooku alone would be a pain in the ass, and add a duo that gave Dooku himself trouble. . . You're going overboard with the Ulic stuff here.

Ulic stalemated Exar. Exar defeated the spirit of an Ancient Sith and killed a lightsaber Grandmaster. The fight with Vodo wasn't even that close. Vodo is almost certainly better than Dooku, near definatly better than Obi-wan and Anakin.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Ulic would not take Yoda. he's good, no doubt. But I have extreme trouble believing that he can defeat a duelist who, unarmed, could evade blows from three Council members. Or simply overwhelm him with Force powers, considering the little green dude absorbed and reflected Force lightning at point-blank range.

Ulic's force powers are great. His Sith Amulet see's to that. Remember, these are PT Council Members, a far cry from Jedi Civil War or Great Sith War Council Members. We're getting non-topical here though. If you guys want to keep debating Ulic vs. the others, lets do it, but I'll drop it if you will.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'm talking about "I, Jedi". Same place, same time. It's written by the same author too. It shows JA from another angle(Corran's) for the first 150 or so pages. Corran got the lightsaber from his grandfather, you was a Jedi in the Clone Wars. Kam had his when he was a Dark Jedi for the Empire. Mara also had a lightsaber wheh she went there.


Damn. I missed a piece of EU literature...



Now may I remember YOU that most of the EU was written before the PT ? In PT times 12 years were impressive considering Mace needed 13. And please...Luke can hardly be compared to PT Jedi in ROTJ.



Still this is nothing compared to Dooku's 8 decades of training.



Yes. But Kyp was only trained that way because he was one of Luke's first students. And it's still very "compressed" training.



That is really stupid considering the fact that they still had training in the temple during war times AND you won't get any inside from using a fighting technique on the battlefield - same counts for force powers.



He was striking with brute force on Vader's lightsaber while Vader was lying on the ground and Vader still kept the weapon up...he didn't even move his arm. In ANH Vader is lifting one of the Rebels up with one arm and kill him even with that hand. There is some power behind that mechanics...



He stalemated Kun when Kun wasn't the great lightsaber duellist and Sith Lord he became later.



Proof ? How should I since he never fought one ? Considering the fact that Dooku used a lightsaber style that is designed to be used against enemies with melee weapons and features extreme precision I would actually give him a better chance than Kyp to kill a slayer.



It was impressive for the Mandalorians. Hell...if I slaughter the best warrior you know you would still be impressed. That doesn't mean Mandalore and Revan were equal.



Yes. The PT Jedi are superior compared to the JCW and GSW people in terms of force use and lightsaber combat.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now may I remember YOU that most of the EU was written before the PT ? In PT times 12 years were impressive considering Mace needed 13. And please...Luke can hardly be compared to PT Jedi in ROTJ.

Jorus was a PT Jedi and it took him four years. I don't get your first sentence. It doesn't matter when it was written, that is just how it is.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Still this is nothing compared to Dooku's 8 decades of training.

Kyp has over five times the War Experince. It's also closer than the Handmaiden vs. her Sisters, which together had more than 80 years of training vs. her 20 or so years. You can't base this on experince alone, or even to this degree. It's how the experince was gained that matters.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Yes. But Kyp was only trained that way because he was one of Luke's first students. And it's still very "compressed" training.

He recieved almost exclusive training from Luke for several weeks. Luke is also self trained and Luke could pwn Dooku.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
That is really stupid considering the fact that they still had training in the temple during war times AND you won't get any inside from using a fighting technique on the battlefield - same counts for force powers.

Try reading a book and learn sword fighting then go against someone who has had both training from a book and actually engaged in real sword fighting and then tell me actual training isn't FAR more effective than book training.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
He stalemated Kun when Kun wasn't the great lightsaber duellist and Sith Lord he became later.

So Ulic didn't advance at all even though they still trained with each other.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Proof ? How should I since he never fought one ? Considering the fact that Dooku used a lightsaber style that is designed to be used against enemies with melee weapons and features extreme precision I would actually give him a better chance than Kyp to kill a slayer.

Works for me.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
It was impressive for the Mandalorians. Hell...if I slaughter the best warrior you know you would still be impressed. That doesn't mean Mandalore and Revan were equal.

They had been fighting him for 3 years and they still thought it was amazing he defeated Mandalore.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Yes. The PT Jedi are superior compared to the JCW and GSW people in terms of force use and lightsaber combat.

No, they aren't. Not even close.

from everything i've read glentrac it sound like you're saying kyp has more raw power than anikin and i thought that anikin had more than anybody during their time and lukes time. correct me if i'm wrong but thats what some of ur posts make it sound like.

second luke would not have been considered a jedi knight if he were alive during th PT era from the little training yoda gave him.

also luke wasnt that big on lightsaber combat he was more into figuring out the force and trying to "save" people from the darkside. thats just an assumption though from what he does after the movies and such.

the fact that kyp was fighting in wars against the galaxies greatest threat i'd say does give him an advantage. but i'm sorry glentrac kyp no matter what you say hasnt sparred with nearly as many people as obi wan anikin or dooku did. even if you give him like 30 years dooku has 80 and was one of the greatest of his time.

also anikin advanced alot quicker than anyone else did. personally i think that ankin was right when he said that he was ready for the trials in AOTC, but obi-wan just needed to teach him to stay level headed. (obi wan never did do that anyway...to a certain extent)

and luke did the force lightning thingy to the vong not kyp. i think someone somewhere said it was kyp in this thread.

also you can take someone with really good raw power some training with its power and some training with a lightsaber end put them up against someone with less raw power and physical strength but that doesnt mean they'll win.

when it comes down to it dooku has more saberskills than kyp. he's just better than kyp with a lightsaber. a makashi master. kyp may have the raw potential but unless its an assrape load more than dooku he can't over come him with force powers. and it'll then go to a ligthsaber match. where kyp is fighting someone that really knows his stuff.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Jorus was a PT Jedi and it took him four years. I don't get your first sentence. It doesn't matter when it was written, that is just how it is.


It does matter. From the impressions we got from the films Luke had only several days or weeks of training before becoming a Jedi Knight (the time he spend on Dagobah). So if Luke can get to Jedi Knight status in weeks (and a maximum of 6 months passed between the beginning of ESB and the end of ROTJ) than this is still impressive compared to four years (Joruus, ancient Jedi)

But

If you consider that even extremely gifted persons like Mace or Anakin needed more than a decade of training to become Jedi Knights it's simply not believeable any longer that Joruus did it in 4 years. Period.



Glentract. Now you really get horrible. The Handmaidens sisters each only had little more experience than the Handmaiden herself and you can't simply count their individual experience together. And notice that the Handmaiden had at least a little bit of Jedi training (more likely she was a Jedi at this point) where her sisters didn't.



Luke is "self trained" by Obi-Wan, Yoda a 4,000 year old Holocron (including several Jedi Masters).



What the hell, Glentract ? The PT Jedi did practice against each other. Dooku was a member of the Order for nearly 70 years. And when the practice times of Master - Padawan teams given for Anakin and Obi-Wan (more than 1,000 hours) are common within the order, Dooku had 1,000 hours of sparring with Yoda and another 1,000 hours of sparring with Qui-Gon. Not to mention training Komari Vosa and Grievous.



Not as much as Kun did. At least he had shown NO force feats that make him play in Kun's league.



Glentract. Stop it. It was amazing for them that somebody could defeat Mandalore. If they were really impressed that would actually more likely show that Revan pretty much slaughtered Mandalore instead of them both being equal opponents.



They are. I think I have to post my PT vs Ancient Jedi theory somewhere...

Dooku wins this one. Ceasefire, men. Cesefire.

Forgive me Janus...but I really think that Dooku has been elevated to the point where he could win against just about anyone. I happen to know about Kyp Duron and I think that he could pull it off and defeat Dooku if just barley. Its not bias since I really don't care for the character.

I've seen evidence from both sides myself, and I believe Dooku is far deadlier than Kyp is; he certainly has better self control than Kyp ever did.

Well, thankfully it's still accepted that he faces a chance of defeat from three fellow PT'ers. And in this case, I think he could take Kyp. But not easily by any means.

And Dooku has such a wonderful personality. He invited me and Mable out to Mustafar for the Long Weekend, and he said to Mable, he said, "That guy's a bum."

Of course he said this right when Gunray was walking by, and he just flew the biggest hissyfit EVER!

But then on my way to the Duty-Free shop, guess who I saw? General Grievous...oh, and he has gotten faaaat!

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
It does matter. From the impressions we got from the films Luke had only several days or weeks of training before becoming a Jedi Knight (the time he spend on Dagobah). So if Luke can get to Jedi Knight status in weeks (and a maximum of 6 months passed between the beginning of ESB and the end of ROTJ) than this is still impressive compared to four years (Joruus, ancient Jedi)

But

If you consider that even extremely gifted persons like Mace or Anakin needed more than a decade of training to become Jedi Knights it's simply not believeable any longer that Joruus did it in 4 years. Period.

So now you have decided that the rest of the EU is uncanon? That doesn't make much sense.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Glentract. Now you really get horrible. The Handmaidens sisters each only had little more experience than the Handmaiden herself and you can't simply count their individual experience together. And notice that the Handmaiden had at least a little bit of Jedi training (more likely she was a Jedi at this point) where her sisters didn't.

I notice you failed to mention Kyp having over five times the War experience.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Luke is "self trained" by Obi-Wan, Yoda a 4,000 year old Holocron (including several Jedi Masters).

Look at Luke in ESB, or even JK, then compare him to NJO him. Most of that was self training. The improvement from ESB-ROTJ was from a few books. Kyp has Luke to teach him, and Exar Kun(for a while).

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
What the hell, Glentract ? The PT Jedi did practice against each other. Dooku was a member of the Order for nearly 70 years. And when the practice times of Master - Padawan teams given for Anakin and Obi-Wan (more than 1,000 hours) are common within the order, Dooku had 1,000 hours of sparring with Yoda and another 1,000 hours of sparring with Qui-Gon. Not to mention training Komari Vosa and Grievous.

Don't forget Asajj and Sev'rance. This is not factual. Since when has 1000 hours of sparring been regular? Obi-wan and Anakin were together for 13 years and still it was considered impressive that they sparred this much. Unless you can prove Dooku came even close to this, it's time to drop this.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Not as much as Kun did. At least he had shown NO force feats that make him play in Kun's league.

He still matched Kun in lightsaber combat and was able to resist Kun's force powers.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Glentract. Stop it. It was amazing for them that somebody could defeat Mandalore. If they were really impressed that would actually more likely show that Revan pretty much slaughtered Mandalore instead of them both being equal opponents.

Does anything support this being a close fight other than that you think it would be more impressive if Mandalore was slaughtered?

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
They are. I think I have to post my PT vs Ancient Jedi theory somewhere...

The one about them having reached the peak in human capability? GO ahead, post it, but it doesn't seem logical to me.

And we go into extra innings...

This ought to be interesting. Nai is notorious for being persistant. I think we proved that in our last debate... What was it? Ten, twenty pages back and forth?

The PT Jedi equaling Ancient Jedi is a bit of a stretch for me, especially considering the huge losses of life and material during the Jedi Civil Wars, their gradual change from front-line soldiers to diplomatic Jedi throughout the ages, and the decline of the Sith.

But sure, go ahead and humor me with that theory.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
from everything i've read glentrac it sound like you're saying kyp has more raw power than anikin and i thought that anikin had more than anybody during their time and lukes time. correct me if i'm wrong but thats what some of ur posts make it sound like.

That's not what I was trying to show. I was stating that Kyp advanced three times as fast as any other student.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
second luke would not have been considered a jedi knight if he were alive during th PT era from the little training yoda gave him.

I'm not to sure about this. He is better than many of them, even as of ROTJ.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
also luke wasnt that big on lightsaber combat he was more into figuring out the force and trying to "save" people from the darkside. thats just an assumption though from what he does after the movies and such.

His Jedi fought a five year war against sword wielders. He started teaching them lightsaber combat within the first few weeks of training. How can you logically say Luke didn't consider lightsaber combat important?

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
the fact that kyp was fighting in wars against the galaxies greatest threat i'd say does give him an advantage. but i'm sorry glentrac kyp no matter what you say hasnt sparred with nearly as many people as obi wan anikin or dooku did. even if you give him like 30 years dooku has 80 and was one of the greatest of his time.

Even if Kyp sparred less people he fought more to the death. Real combat is always more effective at teaching than sparring.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
also anikin advanced alot quicker than anyone else did. personally i think that ankin was right when he said that he was ready for the trials in AOTC, but obi-wan just needed to teach him to stay level headed. (obi wan never did do that anyway...to a certain extent)

So, after 10 years of training was Anakin better than Obi-wan as of TPM? No, he wasn't. Was he better than Jorus after four years of training, appears not. Nomi, nope. Luke, nope. Kyp, nope. Corran, nope. The list goes on and on.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
and luke did the force lightning thingy to the vong not kyp. i think someone somewhere said it was kyp in this thread.

That wasn't force lightning Luke used. It was some strange Instakill technique. Jaina would have reconized force lightning since she was able to use it(Destiny's Way). Kyp used some sort of force lightning after only a few months of training and was able to overwhelm Luke. On top of that, Obi-wan doesn't know force lightning, but he blocked Dooku's lightning with ease.

Next, Kyp has shown force power on a scale Dooku has never faced. Remember that black hole technique Luke did? Well guess what. Kyp did it too.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
also you can take someone with really good raw power some training with its power and some training with a lightsaber end put them up against someone with less raw power and physical strength but that doesnt mean they'll win.

The amount of training is less important than the quality of the training. Kyp had over five times the War Experince Dooku had and we have seen how effective even three years of War Experince was for Obi-wan and Anakin.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
when it comes down to it dooku has more saberskills than kyp. he's just better than kyp with a lightsaber. a makashi master. kyp may have the raw potential but unless its an assrape load more than dooku he can't over come him with force powers. and it'll then go to a ligthsaber match. where kyp is fighting someone that really knows his stuff.

Unfounded. I'm not to sure that Dooku is much better than Kyp in dueling, if he is better at all. Kyp is far stronger in force powers though, enough to overwhelm Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So now you have decided that the rest of the EU is uncanon? That doesn't make much sense.

Basic rule of canon policy: Films > EU. If the films say that 12 or 13 years to become a Jedi Knight is impressive (and if Anakin can't do it faster it must be impressive somehow) than people doing it in 4 years during PT times are simply illogical. Period.



I notice you failed to realize that war experience doesn't mean anything. Ever tried to develop you personal fighting style further while facing deadly opponents ?



Of course all other Padawans (except Anakin) must have learned lightsaber combat in otherways than sparing against their masters. Maybe they were beamed to an remote planet where they could fight some mysterious creatures having lightsabers instead of arms or something like that.



Personal skill or result of the Sith amulet he was wearing ? And still Kun wasn't close to the "top of his power".



Did I start the speculation how strong Mandalore was compared to Revan without any proof or just a little hint to speculate about or was that you, huh ?



The one you see above. Go on, proove me wrong, destroy the fabric of the universe - see if I care. :P

The thing about The PT Jedi being more attuned in the force is rubbish. Look at Malachor V! Thousands of people were killed by the backlash of all those deaths!

Originally posted by Darth Traya
The thing about The PT Jedi being more attuned in the force is rubbish. Look at Malachor V! Thousands of people were killed by the backlash of all those deaths!

People being in the orbit of that planet - not people that were thousands of lightyears away. Also notice that the destruction of Malachor V didn't seem to have killed people like Malak, Revan himself and the Dark Jedi / Sith since many of them are still alive after the Mandalorian Wars and they were at the orbit of Malachor as far as we know.

Did you ever see ancient Jedi being able to sense the feelings of a single other Jedi through half of the Galaxy (which at least Yoda and maybe Mace too were doing in AotC when Anakin killed the Tusken) ? I didn't...

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
People being in the orbit of that planet - not people that were thousands of lightyears away. Also notice that the destruction of Malachor V didn't seem to have killed people like Malak, Revan himself and the Dark Jedi / Sith since many of them are still alive after the Mandalorian Wars and they were at the orbit of Malachor as far as we know.

Did you ever see ancient Jedi being able to sense the feelings of a single other Jedi through half of the Galaxy (which at least Yoda and maybe Mace too were doing in AotC when Anakin killed the Tusken) ? I didn't...

Actually, I have a slight theory about that. The Ancient Sith and Jedi seem to be affected when they are in close proximity to a tragic disaster. It seems to have "dispersed" over four thousand years.

calm the violence brov

I'd like to point out that the jedi of the PT era have shown force attunement much lower than that... notice that when the jedi felt Anakin's pain they were meditating...

But in combat, they've shown lack of awareness and been taken by surprise. If they were so in tune as you suggest, Nai, Order 66 would have been mostly a failure.

but deux i would not egree wit neither or neider

Originally posted by jammasterjo
but deux i would not egree wit neither or neider

Come back when you can post a legible sentence.

r u tykin the peish out of mei

Maybe later I'll take an in-depth look into your theory... I read part of it, but I think you're mistaken on a few thigns:

- For one, you claim that the PT jedi have more powers and thus must be better. This fails to address the very idea that there are.... MORE PT jedi era sources than there are older jedi sources! If I have three pieces of art from one time period and fifty from another, is the latter period more artistic? Hell no! This is poor sampling!

- You've established "facts" in your theory. A theory may contain facts, but it cannot lead up TO facts. You are theorizing. All conclusions are just that: theories.

noit a woise move mei frienzh.

Originally posted by jammasterjo
noit a woise move mei frienzh.

Are you drunk?

i had 4,567 units of sexy hot russian vodka

and i beeeen sippping on jin and juce

That's it, eh? I'd drink you under the table in a minute.

A few other things...

CW Cartoon? Gay. I like how you accept that as canon and disagree with other things that aren't nearly as inconsistant with the saga. Nice.

Second, Obi-Wan felt the death of Alderaan. He didn't particularly do much more than furl an eyebrow.

Billions felt the deaths over Malachor. It is reputed to have echoed across the galaxy, affecting all.

Inconsistantcy much?

Also, the jedi temple depicted in the TOTJ comic and in KOTOR is very different from the one in the PT saga. I don't know where you got the idea that they are the same.

wrightly said deus janus wot da hell u bin hollering your name dese days and dese nights

Damn, my refutation did'nt come up!!!!

Why the quote?

ewhat was da point *****

Originally posted by Deus Ex
I'd like to point out that the jedi of the PT era have shown force attunement much lower than that... notice that when the jedi felt Anakin's pain they were meditating...

Still they felt it.



First off their ability to use the force was clouded by the Dark Side (quote from AotC). Second: Do you want to tell me that ancient Jedi had shown more "awareness" while getting killed by assasins that are seem to just think about Pazaak ? And some of the Jedi were not really surprised but simply horribly outgunned (have a look at Ki-Adi-Mund - he turns around before the first shot is fired and he commanded the clones to follow him so they did nothing unusual meaning he must have sensed something and then he was taken by superior firepower).
And why would you be aware or think of permanent danger commanding troops that practically do not have their own will ?



Sorry...simply wrong expression on my side here.



Oh. Where are the big inconsitant things here ? On that level I can disagree with the entire EU (TOTJ because of training times, same with NJO, JA the Thrawn trilogy not to mention the DE series and so on...)



He had to sit down immediatly and Luke could SEE that something has happened. I call that more than "furl an eyebrow".



Oh yes. Luke Skywalker can't sense the destruction of Alderaan with all the potential he has and in the entirety of the EU nobody without some force practice was able to sense entire sunsystems blown up by Kyp Durron but Malachor could be sensed by "normal people" ?



Where did we see the Jedi temple from the outside in KotoR ? It's different in the TOTJ comics (sorry...I don't have them here at the moment) ? Still movies > comics. And I got that idea from the starwars.com databank (EU article about the Jedi Temple).

Like I said, Nai, I'll go over your theory with a fine toothed comb and get back to you on it. Not assumig I'll ever change your mind, but I think if you're gonna show one side of the argument, I should show the other side.

And we'll leave the considering of evidence to neutral third parties.

k so glentract.

first off your points with kuns and kyp fighting doesnt matter. over time(4,000 years) the spirit and kuns powers more than likely deteriorated alot. and with luke being good as some of the knights of the pt ere as of ROTJ i have to disagree still it just doesnt make sense to me someone with like what 3 years maybe of training being better than somneone with i dunno 14 years is better? doubt it. the thing with me sayin i dont think luke concentraited much on lightsabercombat is just an opinion remeber i got nothin to prove it. kyp fough to the death more being none of them used the force though did they. i do think that anikin was better in AOTC then obi wan was in TPM only obiwan was more levelheaded. to say that dooku(being one of the greatest of his time) isnt a good duelist compared to kyp is just ignorant. dooku one of the best with a lightsaber out of 10,000 compared to kyp out of like what how many jedi were around in the njo times? not nearly as many.

now nai

war experience doesnt mean anything? i have to disagree war experience helps out alot. your theory with genetics and the force and how over time with natural selection the jedi would have better attunment to the force well with genetics look at it like this.

anikin we'll say half of his blood is the force and the other half is shmi's blood then him and padme have luke so 1/2 of anikin and 1/2 of padme make up look right? so that means that 1/4 of luke is the force blood 1/4 of luke is shmi's blood 1/4 of luke is padme's dad and 1/4 of luke his padmes mom. so naturally the force is diminished over time. unless they only reproduce with other force sensatives and then still it would weaken a little bit over time.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
k so glentract.

first off your points with kuns and kyp fighting doesnt matter. over time(4,000 years) the spirit and kuns powers more than likely deteriorated alot. and with luke being good as some of the knights of the pt ere as of ROTJ i have to disagree still it just doesnt make sense to me someone with like what 3 years maybe of training being better than somneone with i dunno 14 years is better? doubt it.

Yoda called him a Knight. He had passed the trials. He demonstrated better mastery of the force than many other Knights we have seen who have had more training. War Experience seems to be the key.

Look at it this way. All the Jedi who lived in times of war became powerful v ery quickly(Luke, Kyp, Corran, Nomi, ect.), while peacetime Jedi(with the exception of Jorus) took at minimum 13 years. Luke being a Jedi Knight after 3 years is not uncommon for WAR time Jedi.

And Exar being a weak spirit only contributes more to Kyp being powerful.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
the thing with me sayin i dont think luke concentraited much on lightsabercombat is just an opinion remeber i got nothin to prove it. kyp fough to the death more being none of them used the force though did they.

And I have proof that shows otherwise, so until someone gives superior proof otherwise, what I said is true.

Also, as was seen with the Mandalorians, people don't have to be force sensitive to be a threat to the Jedi. There were Dark Jedi and many of the Imperial Guards were force Adepts, but I can't say if Kyp ever killed one or not.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
i do think that anikin was better in AOTC then obi wan was in TPM only obiwan was more levelheaded. to say that dooku(being one of the greatest of his time) isnt a good duelist compared to kyp is just ignorant. dooku one of the best with a lightsaber out of 10,000 compared to kyp out of like what how many jedi were around in the njo times? not nearly as many.

Did you miss Obi-wan fighting Maul in that last part? Obi-wan matched Maul blade-for-blade, it was only when Maul force pushed Obi-wan that he was defeated(force powers always seem to get the better of him). Being level-headed is part of being a good fighter.

Also, NJO Jedi are on average better than the Old Order Jedi. This is because they were trained in times of war.



Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
now nai

war experience doesnt mean anything? i have to disagree war experience helps out alot. your theory with genetics and the force and how over time with natural selection the jedi would have better attunment to the force well with genetics look at it like this.

anikin we'll say half of his blood is the force and the other half is shmi's blood then him and padme have luke so 1/2 of anikin and 1/2 of padme make up look right? so that means that 1/4 of luke is the force blood 1/4 of luke is shmi's blood 1/4 of luke is padme's dad and 1/4 of luke his padmes mom. so naturally the force is diminished over time. unless they only reproduce with other force sensatives and then still it would weaken a little bit over time.

You theory is wrong, blatantly speaking. Do children ever surpass their parents? Yes, they do.

Also, if your theory is true, then after 30 generations, the average Jedi would be like an atom next to a grape. We can see from Yoda to Sidious that this is not true.

Look up Malthus Principles and you will see why it being cut in half everytime simply cannot be true.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
war experience doesnt mean anything? i have to disagree war experience helps out alot.


How would war experience help a lot ?
For Jedi only two things matter in a fight: Their force powers and their lightsaber skills and both can't be effectively developed through fighting in a war. In a war you either win (and survive) or lose (die) except a situation where you fight a superior opponent and still survive because another person saves you (like Obi-Wan and Anakin surviving their fight with Dooku in AotC because Yoda joins them).

When you fight somebody you're using things you have learned so far and try to overwhelm him with that. If you can do it, your opponent is most likely weaker than you. Things that can be learned on a battlefield are mostly limited to skills that are not very useful in a duel like keeping an overview over a battle situation, tactics and (things that can be used in a duel) adapt to new situations or improvisation.

Just have a look at Luke for example. He has gone through three years of war in ESB times: He has a hard time force pulling his lightsaber and had a hard time surviving the Wampa. After a few weeks of training with Yoda he has developed FAR greater abilities than through 3 years of combat.
In ROTJ he has improved further but NOT because he has fought some bountyhunters and bandits - because he trained under Obi-Wans spirit (and using Obi-Wans notations) on Tatooine.

And after ROTJ look when he improved greatly: Not in actual combat. It was training from Joruus (Thrawn trilogy), Sidious (DE comics) and his experience in the Jedi Academy that resulted in his NJO powers and not the (relatively few) fights he had.

That's only logical. Where do you learn better: In a relatively peaceful enviroment or on a battlefield. And even if you had 1000 duels against 1000 different persons: Considering the fact that even an duel between two nearly equal opponents (Anakin and Obi-Wan) only lasted for 15 minutes you simply can't learn as much as you can in some sparring fight with a superior opponent.

Another example here would be Kar Vastor. He spend his entire life with fighting a war and still he can't overwhelm Mace Windu in terms of force powers or armed combat.

And to give an example from reality again: The most feared Katana swordfighters in ancient Japan where NOT people that did win many duels but a group of people practicing a fighting art called "ichi no tachi" (the only sword) which goal it was to kill an opponent with one hit. They didn't practice duels much but used training methods like placing serveral thousands of strikes on a trunk each day and jump manouvers. On the battlefield they simply ran at their opponents (some of the masters of that art were able to cross 5.5 metres with 3 steps) and used sheer power (kinetic energy from the approach and physical strength) to strike their opponent down with a single hit (sometimes cutting through the opponents blade).

What can we learn: Training matters and NOT war / fighting experience.



Sorry...but all those estimations are really ignoring reality and the things told in the SW universe.
Just some example (reality): My father is about 1.80 metres tall, my mother about 1.65 metres - using you logic I should be about 1.73 metres tall or at least I shouldn't be able to be taller than my father. In fact I'm about 1.90 metres tall.
Other examples (SW universe): Anakin Solo seems to have a greater force potential than Jacen and Jaina despite the fact that they all have the same parents.
Kyps potential is quite close to that of the Skywalker children and Luke himself - which would be impossible according to your logic.

k my theory is based on genetics. now you guys saying that according to my theory the force would die out. i'm not saying that at all. the force still chooses and can just end up being very strrong in some it's not like there were only 100 force sensatives and they populated the rest opf the galaxy with force users. you guys are just takeing what i'm saying and responding as if you have no other SW knowledge.

yoda calle dhim a knight ya after he confronted vader as in killing him he neverkilled him he redeemed him also i'm just stating that according to PT era luke would not have been a knight based off the training he had.

Grammar time.

ya sorry if my last post doesnt make anysense i'll re do it later i was in a hurry last night. and now i have to go to cheerleading practice. but later today i'll re poost

hold up you guys can keep oin at it and all but no ones has mentioned kyp or dooku in awhile? so who'd win. i still say dooku but not easily kyp would put up a good fight.

One thing about poison... the exile was given an extremely lethal dose of something or other and he survived it. Being a jedi simply means having a strong consitution.

Count Dooku.

Kyp is powerful. He's stronger than Dooku, but he's reckless and lacks experience. Also, he is not as talented as the Makashi master. Dooku won't own him, but he will beat him. And he'll be walking away from this one. Not limping.

Did you read the previous 80 post escape? I doubt it, they're freakin long.


Anyway, in a nutshell, Kyp has ~20 years of experince as of DN. He also has potential that rivals Luke's, which is far above Dooku.

~Fifteen years of that is War Experince, which we have seen is far more helpful for gaining skill than regular training.

Anakin, for example, grew more in 3 years than he did in the previous ten. Obi-wan grew more in the three years than he had in the previous 36. That puts War Experince anywhere between 5-12 times more effective.

So, a force user in NJO times with equal potential of a person in PT times with be anywhere from 3-12 times more powerful. This makes sense because we se people like Jacen with about a decade of training able to rival people like ROTS Anakin.

15*5=60+8=68 years of PT training. That's almost equal to Dooku's when you consider Kyp has more potential and thus will advance faster: 3*5=15+80=95.

If we look at how much Obi-wan improved, it's far more in Kyp's favor:
15*12=180+8=188 years of PT training. This seems too high, so it's probably something like 7 or 8 times more effective:
7*15=105+8=113 years.

Kyp also advanced three times faster than the other students. Kyp is very powerful and I believe he could defeat Dooku,

Kyp also has demonstrated force control on the level of controlling black holes, which was difficult even for NJO Luke to do.

OMG numbers. I smell doom and poorly executed logic.

No offense, Glentract, but you know how I get when people start putting in random numbers into posts.

I know. Still, numbers can help to demonstrate a point.

If used properly and clearly with no mistakes or assumptions.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The Miraluka were destroyed, but wiped out was a misstatement, I meant that there were many Force Users in different species that were wiped out, removing them from being able to pass on their force Capability.

Ok.



Vima Da-Boda (appearing in the DE comics) who was a PT Jedi had a daughter in PT times.



Do you want to tell me that the Dark Jedi who started the Sith Empire where stronger than Ragnos ? Hard to believe.



If there were Civil Wars they would basically have lost some footsoldiers (Masassi) which doesn't really matter. The Sith Lords and the Dark Lord were only touched if somebody was able to defeat them to take their place. How often do you think that happened ?

And the Sith Empire wasn't "civilized" like our societies are civilized. Because of the rule that "The strongest must rule" the Sith Empire worked under social-darwinistic conditions meaning they used "natural selection" (through fighting) to determine their leaders.



Now that doesn't make sense. The "true" Sith Empire always requires a Dark Lord. If the Sith Empire had still existed in times of Kun, Kun could never have become the Dark Lord because there must have been a Dark Lord somewhere in unknown space and Ragnos must have known that.



Where was the Order mainly wiped out in the Great Sith War when they still had thousands (comics) or hundrets (Jedi Academy trilogy) of Jedi left to finally confront Kun ?



They could still pass on some force sensitivity before getting killed.
And please give me a source saying the Ancient Jedi Order had TENS of thousands of members.



1) Yes because SW isn't a porn movie.
2) Where have we seen Jedi getting killed by thugs in the PT ?
3) One case ? Anakin + Padme (2 children, both force sensitive), Han + Leia (3 children, all force sensitive), the mother of Ulic and Cay + their father (2 children, both force sensitive), Vima Da-Boda (daughter force sensitive). In fact we have only one case where a child with one/two Jedi parents wasn't force sensitive and that's the son of Hethrir in "Crystal Star" - on the other handside we have huge force potential coming "out of nowhere" (like Dorsk 81 and Kyp Durron).



1) Yes the Neimodians had never dealt with Jedi before but they wouldn't have opened the doors of that room if they had thought that a Jedi (even knowing that Jedi had "superhuman" abilities) couldn't have survived that.
2) Ulic survived the poison because of giving into the Dark Side which means his normal force powers weren't enough.
3) The air in the Jekk Jekk Tar is not really designed to kill humans. And this is gaming experience. I've walked to the club having a breathing mask on my face.

Of course the Jedi Exile had a force ability (or could have it) to survive the poisoned athmosphere. But Kreia - while teaching him - says that this is an ability to work with the air you inhalated once longer than normal people can do.



Where have you ever seen somebody moving serveral tons with a Force Push ? The heaviest force push in the movies is either Obi-Wan pushing Grievous or Yoda pushing Sidious and both didn't seem to "hurt" the opponent much.
And I guess the "stunts" during the chase of the headhuntress in AotC would normally cause more damage than getting force pushed (Anakin jumping out of the speeder, falling down for more than 10 seconds and then grab onto another speeder that moves by with some high amount of speed).



Because you have to focus on it more. It's harder to hit a basketball with a baseball bat than it is to hit a baseball. And according to Yoda the weight of the object you want to move doesn't matter.



It doesn't make the Sith weak. But they used technology and artifacts aiding their natural force powers where the Jedi didn't.
We saw Sidious turning into a real force monster using one of those "chrystals" in DE compared to what he could do in ROTS. Now think about somebody like Sadow take away his ship and his chrystals and imagine what would be left of his power.



Andur Sunrider getting killed by a bunch of bandits would be a good example.



a)
If the Essential Guide takes information from the book the book would be the higher level of canon.

b)
In Dark Apprentice at the beginning of chapter 23 the holocron first tells Luke's students about the ancient Jedi and then how Yoda became a Jedi Knight. In the end of chapter 29 Luke takes the same holocron and demands to speak to Master Vodo (which would make no sense if the Holocron only contains informations Vodo installed in it) and Vodo tells him about Exar Kun.



Ossus contained a museum so a 10,000 year old lightsaber (which must have been one of the first lightsaber constructed since lightsabers where invented in 9,990 BBY) doesn't mean that the Jedi where on Ossus at that time. We don't know since when they were there.

What we know is that Odan-urr installed the Library / Museum on Ossus after his Master Ooroo was killed and that happened while fighting against Naga Sadow (so 5,000 BBY). That means the library and museum of Ossus were present from 5,000 BBY to 3,996 BBY when Ossus was destroyed.



They didn't make normal bandits flee by simply revealing theirselves to be Jedi or touching their lightsaber. And if Darsha (a padawan) can use mind control on an entire gang of bandits (Shadow Hunter) why shouldn't Andur Sunrider (an ancient Jedi Knight) do the same ? Except he couldn't do that...

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Not everyone, but many were. Assassins were common in that time, along with the Sith Empire whose main enemy was the Jedi. They trained many assassins to counter the Jedi.

I was talking about bandits and now you are talking about Sith Assasins. How many Sith Assasins did Kun have ? They became commonly used under Revan / Malak or Sion.



The PT Jedi aren't using artifacts. It's a difference if you just use a lightsaber or something that boosts your force potential into the sky.



How would one Sith have survived that battle if the Republic forces destroyed the SF and all Sith ships outside ?



Have a look at AotC and simply count how often they are firing. And again you can see Mace deflecting six blaster bolts from different directions in less than a second in AotC during the arena fight (directly after C-3PO's head comes walking in - Mace deflects 6 blaster bolts and then jumps away).



Oh yes. Real fighting for some minutes does teach you more than several thousand hours of practice ? Hardly.



Name some powerful people that Jedi did fight in direct combat and had problems with. Warb Null and his Krath warriors got pretty much destroyed by Ulic and his Jedi strike team and that are the only people that come to my mind spontaneously.



That is an assumption. You can crush hundrets of opponents without improving much if they are all weaker than you because you simply don't need to improve. Now what did you think made Anakin improve more: fighting battle droids (what he did most of the time) or fighting with Asajj / sparring with Obi-Wan ? I'd say the latter one.

And now how would the simple fact that you were fighting a war make you greater if your opponents were inferior ? And how can you tranlate the time a war went on directly into "war experience" ? It's not like Obi-Wan, Anakin or medieval knights did nothing else than fight even in times of wars.



a) How are comlinks augmenting somebody's force power ? "I have a comlink and now I'm twice as powerful compared to myself without a comlink" ?

b) Hooray. Ten thousands of Jedi against how many Dark Jedi / Krath / Sith ? Can you give me a single event where two armies of force users were colliding and fighting ?



Armies of Jedi and Sith.



To give a reason why they knew the other one inside out ?



You are simply making it look like as if the Ancient Jedi were constantly fighting wars against Dark Siders and didn't care much about diplomacy which simply isn't true.



He visited Korriban and Ziost after the events of the movies afaik and still all "major" locations where already plundered.



Becoming a Jedi Knight (in terms of a Jedi Knight equipped with the powers the PT Jedi had) in 4 years is not contradicting the movies ? Especially with Joruus. All Jedi were trained from infancy on in the PT era (Anakin being 9 years old was already "too old" - so you want to tell me that Joruus was a Jedi Knight before reaching the age of 5, or ten or at least he's outclassing Zett Jucassa, Mace Windu and people like that. That's not contradicting the movies ?



No. It would not. The Dark Side is not stronger than the Light on the final state (Sidious isn't stronger than Yoda) but it still gives you power faster.



How can you tell how capable the Sith are without their artifacts if you have never seen them fight without their artifacts ?



Ever seen one rip out the Core of a Star without using a ship focusing his force powers and chrystals boosting his force powers ? No.
Now imagine Yoda using one of those chrystals and develope the same way Sidious has from ROTS to DE. Outsch ?



Why don't you understand the Lucasfilm canon policy ? The movies are canon for the single reason that they are Lucas' own work. Aren't Lucas own thoughts Lucas own work any longer ? Not that it does matter here.



So name the ancient Sith that were fought by Jedi and would be able to kill dozens if not hundreds of PT Jedi each. Ragnos has never seen a Jedi. Same goes for Kressh. Sadow never faced Jedi in direct confrontation. Kun did it once and schooled his former master (which doesn't make Vodo seem to look very impressive). And now the last one would be Ulic. Hmm...can Ulic handle dozens or hundreds of PT Jedi ? Can Revan do that ? Can Malak do that ?

Originally posted by Deus Ex
One thing about poison... the exile was given an extremely lethal dose of something or other and he survived it. Being a jedi simply means having a strong consitution.

Good point. I had nearly forgotten that. As far as I remember that was a high dose of a sedative or soporific - but it wasn't used with the intention to kill the Exile (HK-50 did that as far as I remember and he wanted to keep the Exile in that Kolto tank until the arrival of the Sith).

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Good point. I had nearly forgotten that. As far as I remember that was a high dose of a sedative or soporific - but it wasn't used with the intention to kill the Exile (HK-50 did that as far as I remember and he wanted to keep the Exile in that Kolto tank until the arrival of the Sith).

I'm not so sure about that. It seems like they would prefer to capture him alive, not that it would be their main goal. I mean they shot his ship from the sky. On Peragus HK tried to keep him locked up because it was the perfect time for something like that. Easy to capture him, but I don't see any real proof that he would want the Exile alive instead of death. He would just prefer it. He could have very well tried to destroy the Exile on that ship.

And he sure as hell didn't want to give the Exile up to the Sith.. he wanted to give the Exile to Goto who didn't work with the Sith..

Originally posted by Fishy
I'm not so sure about that. It seems like they would prefer to capture him alive, not that it would be their main goal. I mean they shot his ship from the sky. On Peragus HK tried to keep him locked up because it was the perfect time for something like that. Easy to capture him, but I don't see any real proof that he would want the Exile alive instead of death. He would just prefer it. He could have very well tried to destroy the Exile on that ship.

And he sure as hell didn't want to give the Exile up to the Sith.. he wanted to give the Exile to Goto who didn't work with the Sith..

Goto clearly wanted the Exile alive so HK-50 wouldn't have killed the Exile. Did he want to kill the Exile at the end of Peragus or simply capture him (I don't remember that exactly atm) ?

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Goto clearly wanted the Exile alive so HK-50 wouldn't have killed the Exile. Did he want to kill the Exile at the end of Peragus or simply capture him (I don't remember that exactly atm) ?

He told the Exile to stay put and wait for rescue... He did open fire after that, not caring about killing him.

and yeah Goto wanted the Exile alive, but I can't think of any bounty hunter except for Mira that cared about that particulair thing, and Mira only cared because she always tried to keep her prey alive. The rest of the bounty hunters just wanted the Exile... dead or alive it did not matter to them. HK does seem to share the oppinion of most of the other bounty hunters... Alive is prefered but death is acceptable.

Edit: Actually the Exile was in a pretty bad shape, in the prologue T3 has to save his live by giving him med pacs. And then at Peragus he's knocked out in a Kolto Tank for sometime. It seems to me that HK did want him dead but failed in that, and then decided to take him alive. Seeing as he already had him captured and KO. I don't think he forsaw the Exile waking up.

Hmm...I don't know...would Goto have payed anything for a dead Exile ?
He needed the Exile alive so why would he have payed for a dead Exile - and why would a bounty hunter kill the Exile in this case ?

Isn't there a scene somewhere (beginning of Nar Shadda ?) in the game where one of the bounty hunters (Hanharr ?) simply wants to kill the Exile and it's told that Goto wants the Exile alive at any costs ?

And why shouldn't HK-50 have killed the Exile if he wanted to do this ? The Exile was defenseless while being in the Kolto tank so HK-50 could have poisoned the Exile or walk into there and shoot the Exile or something like that. That would have been more effecient compared to manipulating droids into killingl the entire staff of the Peragus station and then simply wait there doing basically nothing until the Exile shows up.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Vima Da-Boda (appearing in the DE comics) who was a PT Jedi had a daughter in PT times.

Who was her daughter?



Originally posted by Borbarad
Do you want to tell me that the Dark Jedi who started the Sith Empire where stronger than Ragnos ? Hard to believe.

He very well may have been. Just because it's hard for you believe doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Originally posted by Borbarad
If there were Civil Wars they would basically have lost some footsoldiers (Masassi) which doesn't really matter. The Sith Lords and the Dark Lord were only touched if somebody was able to defeat them to take their place. How often do you think that happened ?

So, the leaders of the Sith Armies in the Civil Wars just gave up after a while and their enemies didn't feel the need to kill them in revenge or out of pratical necessity?

Originally posted by Borbarad
And the Sith Empire wasn't "civilized" like our societies are civilized. Because of the rule that "The strongest must rule" the Sith Empire worked under social-darwinistic conditions meaning they used "natural selection" (through fighting) to determine their leaders.

The strongest was killed though. You may notice that Ragnos is one of the, if not the only DLOS to ever die of old age. All of the other time, the strongest of that time was killed, usually not in a fair fight either.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Now that doesn't make sense. The "true" Sith Empire always requires a Dark Lord. If the Sith Empire had still existed in times of Kun, Kun could never have become the Dark Lord because there must have been a Dark Lord somewhere in unknown space and Ragnos must have known that.

It makes even less sense that it simply congened out of nothing.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Where was the Order mainly wiped out in the Great Sith War when they still had thousands (comics) or hundrets (Jedi Academy trilogy) of Jedi left to finally confront Kun ?

I was saying that it was weakened from it's massive number prior to that which allowed it to be fore the most part wiped out in the JCW.

Originally posted by Borbarad
They could still pass on some force sensitivity before getting killed.
And please give me a source saying the Ancient Jedi Order had TENS of thousands of members.

It can be logically implied. If they fought a War that devastated their numbers(which the Great Sith War did) then them still having thousands of Jedi at the end of it shows they had to have tens of thousands.

Originally posted by Borbarad
1) Yes because SW isn't a porn movie.
2) Where have we seen Jedi getting killed by thugs in the PT ?
3) One case ? Anakin + Padme (2 children, both force sensitive), Han + Leia (3 children, all force sensitive), the mother of Ulic and Cay + their father (2 children, both force sensitive), Vima Da-Boda (daughter force sensitive). In fact we have only one case where a child with one/two Jedi parents wasn't force sensitive and that's the son of Hethrir in "Crystal Star" - on the other handside we have huge force potential coming "out of nowhere" (like Dorsk 81 and Kyp Durron).

2.)Yaddle, Yerael Poof, Tyvokka come to mind immediatly.
3.)The thing is that over the 1000 years prior to the PT, Jedi having children was forbidden. This is stated in "Jedi Trial". Some Jedi did have children since the New Sith War, but it was extremely rare.

Originally posted by Borbarad
1) Yes the Neimodians had never dealt with Jedi before but they wouldn't have opened the doors of that room if they had thought that a Jedi (even knowing that Jedi had "superhuman" abilities) couldn't have survived that.

They didn't know the power of a Jedi at all though.

Originally posted by Borbarad
2) Ulic survived the poison because of giving into the Dark Side which means his normal force powers weren't enough.

It wasn't just the poison, it was the temptation of the Darkside.

Originally posted by Borbarad
3) The air in the Jekk Jekk Tar is not really designed to kill humans. And this is gaming experience. I've walked to the club having a breathing mask on my face.

It is deadly though. And as you said in another thread, "if The Exile had killed the Jedi Masters, would Kreia not be able to use the instakill technique?" Same with the Jekk Jekk Tar. It is possible to walk through it without a mask.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Of course the Jedi Exile had a force ability (or could have it) to survive the poisoned athmosphere. But Kreia - while teaching him - says that this is an ability to work with the air you inhalated once longer than normal people can do.

The technique is called breath control. What do you think Qui-gon and Obi-wan used?

Originally posted by Borbarad
Where have you ever seen somebody moving serveral tons with a Force Push ? The heaviest force push in the movies is either Obi-Wan pushing Grievous or Yoda pushing Sidious and both didn't seem to "hurt" the opponent much.

I should have said several billion tons, for when the core's were ripped out of stars. I could also state that the Jedi's force pushes were more powerful because they were able to actually kill people, while even Yoda's didn't.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And I guess the "stunts" during the chase of the headhuntress in AotC would normally cause more damage than getting force pushed (Anakin jumping out of the speeder, falling down for more than 10 seconds and then grab onto another speeder that moves by with some high amount of speed).

Jedi have been able to levitate. He slowed himself before hitting it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Because you have to focus on it more. It's harder to hit a basketball with a baseball bat than it is to hit a baseball. And according to Yoda the weight of the object you want to move doesn't matter.

It still requires more energy to move the basket ball.

Originally posted by Borbarad
It doesn't make the Sith weak. But they used technology and artifacts aiding their natural force powers where the Jedi didn't.
We saw Sidious turning into a real force monster using one of those "chrystals" in DE compared to what he could do in ROTS. Now think about somebody like Sadow take away his ship and his chrystals and imagine what would be left of his power.

Sadow was still much more powerful than even DE Sidious. Since he used one of Naga's Amulet's(among other Sith Artifacts in DE) it appears that even without his amulets, he would be more powerful than ROTS Sidious. ROTS Sidious was one of the top four force user's alive at that time. Assuming the loss of power is consistent(which it appears to be) and that all of the Sith Lords lost an equivalent amont of power, all of the following would be more powerful than anyone in the PT(note, this assumes Sidious gained the power he did only with one Amulet, he had several and the power loss for the Sith would be a lot lower, this is just a minor example): Ragnos, Naga, Kressh, Tulak, Ajunta, Simus, (probably) Nadd, and (probably)Exar. Remember, this is assuming that it was Naga's Amulet alone that made him so powerful, which it is not. There were many other objects that DE Sidious gathered from Korriban.

Originally posted by Borbarad
a)
If the Essential Guide takes information from the book the book would be the higher level of canon.

No, they are stated as two different holocrons in more sources than the Essential Guide. Added to the fact that the JA books never say they are the same, it is logical they are different things.

Originally posted by Borbarad
b)
In Dark Apprentice at the beginning of chapter 23 the holocron first tells Luke's students about the ancient Jedi and then how Yoda became a Jedi Knight. In the end of chapter 29 Luke takes the same holocron and demands to speak to Master Vodo (which would make no sense if the Holocron only contains informations Vodo installed in it) and Vodo tells him about Exar Kun.

What's your point? Vodo was the gatekeeper to his holocron, others added to it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Ossus contained a museum so a 10,000 year old lightsaber (which must have been one of the first lightsaber constructed since lightsabers where invented in 9,990 BBY) doesn't mean that the Jedi where on Ossus at that time. We don't know since when they were there.

Let me guess, you got that info from wikipedia, didn't you? If you did, I bet you'll be happy to hear it's not true. The New Essential Guide to Chronology(I love being one of the first people to get it) states that the Jedi had lightsabers prior to the Plus Dea period, which began in 12,000 B.B.Y. making a 9,990 date at least two thousand years off. It is implied that some Jedi began experimenting with "frozen laser" technology as early as 25,000 B.B.Y. making your number off by over 15,000 years.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What we know is that Odan-urr installed the Library / Museum on Ossus after his Master Ooroo was killed and that happened while fighting against Naga Sadow (so 5,000 BBY). That means the library and museum of Ossus were present from 5,000 BBY to 3,996 BBY when Ossus was destroyed.

That doesn't make any sense. The lightsaber was CONSTRUCTED on Ossus, not stored there. Also, why would it be in a museum if it wasn't the first lightsaber, and since it wasn't by a long time, it wasn't in the museum.

Originally posted by Borbarad
They didn't make normal bandits flee by simply revealing theirselves to be Jedi or touching their lightsaber. And if Darsha (a padawan) can use mind control on an entire gang of bandits (Shadow Hunter) why shouldn't Andur Sunrider (an ancient Jedi Knight) do the same ? Except he couldn't do that...

These guys had a stronger mind, perhaps. I don't know.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Who was her daughter?

I don't recall her name. It's stated in the DE comics that Vima failed to rescue her and then she went dark side, slaughtered the guy responsible for her daughters death and she started losing her connection to the force.



The Dark Jedi who started the Sith Empire were defeated by the Jedi in their time. So do you want to tell me that a bunch of guys being more powerful than Ragnos (who was basically "godlike" can be defeated by Jedi ?



It basically makes no sense to assume that the Sith Lords had real Civil Wars going on for the entire time. They had Massasi to fight in these wars. By any logic - a Sith Lord like Ragnos, Sadow or Kressh could have schooled hundrets or even thousands of Massasi on his own so why wasting them against enemies like that ?

For all we know they duelled to see who was the strongest (Ragnos killed Simus in a duel) and that isn't simply removing them from the "genetic pool" because they did live for several hundret years and could easily have produced children before reaching the real positions of power.



See above. And why would they not do it in fair fights if the "strongest" should rule - that doesn't mean "the most manipulative one". These are not the PT Sith.



Very nice, Glentract. It makes sense to have two persons in a position that only one could have at any time ?



Again a very nice use of twisted logic. First you state that the battle against the Krath droids has only costed the life of a "few" Jedi to make them look better than the PT Jedi on Geonosis. Then you go on telling me that this battle - the only one we know of where actually massive numbers of Jedi were present - has decimated their numbers greatly.
From that point you conclude that there must have been TENS of thousands of Jedi because they still had a huge number left to fight Kun.
Can you tell me where the other thousands of Jedi were killed considering the fact that they were more powerful than the PT Jedi and there were only very few Dark Siders around ?



The 1000 years prior to the PT ? You talking about the era between the battle of Ruusan and the PT ? Sorry...but this statement is contradicted by past-ROTJ literature and Lucas himself.



They still rated it high enough to fear them despite the fact that they had an entire army of droids on the ship to stop them.



Ripping the core of a star out is a "force push" for you ? Nice. Have you ever seen people "force pushing" large objects ? Yes ? Every force user in KotoR times is more powerful than Yoda because being able to hurt people by force pushing them ? Also very nice.



He wasn't still slowing down the speeder. Ever tried to grab on a car driving by ?



Yes. But energy doesn't matter. The force acts through the Jedi and the amount of energy the force has access to is unlimited. That's the reason why some of the NJO people can "control" black holes.



Sadow used his amulett, his ship and SOME chrystals boosting his force powers to do what he did. Actually more things than DE Sidious had. And Kun himself having entire Sith temples to focus his own force powers and a Sith amulett wasn't able to destroy the Republic fleet that came to kill him where Sidious was able to obliterate fleets with his force storms.



There is only ONE holocron. Through the entire JA books it's always called THE Jedi Holocron. Not "one of the holocrons" not "a Jedi Holocron" - the Jedi Holocron because there is only one of them.



Yeah. Right. Perfect. If Vodo was the gatekeeper of his holocron he would have been the first person showing up when somebody uses the holocron making it pretty pointless to have Luke asking to speak to Vodo.



I was simply using the last numbers I had - does that matter for your argumentation here ? And you know that the Essential Guides chronology (where there is no other source and this is the case for most things that did happen prior to 5,000 BBY) is based on the WotC SW RPG ?
On the same level we can simply end this discussion because Yoda would kill anyone else according to WotC sources and even people like Vader, Dooku, Sidious and Mace have a good chance to defeat Kun on their own (Kun is rated level 17; Vader, Sidious, Dooku and Mace 18).



Yes ? Give me some proof or a single statement that this lightsaber was constructed on Ossus 10,000 years BBY and not simply stored in the museum there. Why the hell would a 10,000 year old lightsaber simply lie around on Ossus if NOT being in the museum ? Again the only source mentioning Ossus before 5,000 BBY is the WotC game.



Andur should still have been able to deal with some thugs instead of getting killed.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I don't recall her name. It's stated in the DE comics that Vima failed to rescue her and then she went dark side, slaughtered the guy responsible for her daughters death and she started losing her connection to the force.

Now I remember that. It was Neema or something.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The Dark Jedi who started the Sith Empire were defeated by the Jedi in their time. So do you want to tell me that a bunch of guys being more powerful than Ragnos (who was basically "godlike" can be defeated by Jedi ?

Yes.

Originally posted by Borbarad
It basically makes no sense to assume that the Sith Lords had real Civil Wars going on for the entire time. They had Massasi to fight in these wars. By any logic - a Sith Lord like Ragnos, Sadow or Kressh could have schooled hundrets or even thousands of Massasi on his own so why wasting them against enemies like that ?

If a single Sith could school hundreds or thousands of Massassi, what would be the point of using Massassi in combat? Just to let you know, the True Sith Empire only lasted 2,000 years. It is possible Wars lasted most of that time.

Originally posted by Borbarad
For all we know they duelled to see who was the strongest (Ragnos killed Simus in a duel) and that isn't simply removing them from the "genetic pool" because they did live for several hundret years and could easily have produced children before reaching the real positions of power.

COULD have doesn't mean they did. Prove up, Nai.

Originally posted by Borbarad
See above. And why would they not do it in fair fights if the "strongest" should rule - that doesn't mean "the most manipulative one". These are not the PT Sith.

They killed each other by firing on an enemy ship(Malak, Naga) betraying their location to an overwhelming enemy force(Gav) letting age kill them(everyone on Ragnos) letting someone else weaken them and then shoot them with a blaser(Naga on Simus). Name one occasion when one Sith killed another in a fair fight.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Very nice, Glentract. It makes sense to have two persons in a position that only one could have at any time ?

Explain where the Sith Empire came from after Exar died then.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Again a very nice use of twisted logic. First you state that the battle against the Krath droids has only costed the life of a "few" Jedi to make them look better than the PT Jedi on Geonosis. Then you go on telling me that this battle - the only one we know of where actually massive numbers of Jedi were present - has decimated their numbers greatly.
From that point you conclude that there must have been TENS of thousands of Jedi because they still had a huge number left to fight Kun.
Can you tell me where the other thousands of Jedi were killed considering the fact that they were more powerful than the PT Jedi and there were only very few Dark Siders around ?

1. Explain Raxus Prime then. The Dark Reaper killed hundreds of Jedi there.
2. Explain the hundreds of possesed diciples Exar sent out to go kill Jedi after he killed Vodo.
3. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed by Mandalorians on Onderon.
4. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed by Mandalorians on Coruscant.
5. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed on Ossus when Ulic's forces kept many Jedi from escaping.
Then explain all of the other battles in which I am to lazy to name right now.
Really, there aren't many losses for the Jedi, now are there.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The 1000 years prior to the PT ? You talking about the era between the battle of Ruusan and the PT ? Sorry...but this statement is contradicted by past-ROTJ literature and Lucas himself.

Name some instances in which this is stated. I want some book titles and actual sites with GL stating that.

Originally posted by Borbarad
They still rated it high enough to fear them despite the fact that they had an entire army of droids on the ship to stop them.

They were cowards. Sidious had enough Clone Troopers on hand to kill Yoda yet he was still afraid of him.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Ripping the core of a star out is a "force push" for you ? Nice. Have you ever seen people "force pushing" large objects ? Yes ? Every force user in KotoR times is more powerful than Yoda because being able to hurt people by force pushing them ? Also very nice.

What do you think they used instead of a force push? Prove up when you state it's different.

So Yoda didn't hurt those two guards when he force pushed them against the wall and knocked them unconcious? Thanks for being a loser and twisting my words.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He wasn't still slowing down the speeder. Ever tried to grab on a car driving by ?

I actually have. I grabed a car that was going ~30 miles per hour and was fine.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. But energy doesn't matter. The force acts through the Jedi and the amount of energy the force has access to is unlimited. That's the reason why some of the NJO people can "control" black holes.

They can only let a certain amount of this energy through. If I had a 1 inch pipe and I was trying to drain the ocean and you had a 100 foot wide pipe and you were trying to do the same thing, you would be able to acess more water.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sadow used his amulett, his ship and SOME chrystals boosting his force powers to do what he did. Actually more things than DE Sidious had. And Kun himself having entire Sith temples to focus his own force powers and a Sith amulett wasn't able to destroy the Republic fleet that came to kill him where Sidious was able to obliterate fleets with his force storms.

Sidious had control of the Eclipse. Also, show some source that shows that Nada used mutiple amulets.

Originally posted by Borbarad
There is only ONE holocron. Through the entire JA books it's always called THE Jedi Holocron. Not "one of the holocrons" not "a Jedi Holocron" - the Jedi Holocron because there is only one of them.

Just like there was only ONE battle in the Great Sith War, huh. You have one source against mutiple ones I have presented.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Right. Perfect. If Vodo was the gatekeeper of his holocron he would have been the first person showing up when somebody uses the holocron making it pretty pointless to have Luke asking to speak to Vodo.

Hmm? I'm not getting what you're saying here. You are the one who said he asking for Vodo. Sidious had Bodo's holocron. Vodo's was the one that was destroyed.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I was simply using the last numbers I had - does that matter for your argumentation here ? And you know that the Essential Guides chronology (where there is no other source and this is the case for most things that did happen prior to 5,000 BBY) is based on the WotC SW RPG ? On the same level we can simply end this discussion because Yoda would kill anyone else according to WotC sources and even people like Vader, Dooku, Sidious and Mace have a good chance to defeat Kun on their own (Kun is rated level 17; Vader, Sidious, Dooku and Mace 18).

Sorry, but the Essential Guides are canon only surpassed by the Movies and a GL quote.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes ? Give me some proof or a single statement that this lightsaber was constructed on Ossus 10,000 years BBY and not simply stored in the museum there. Why the hell would a 10,000 year old lightsaber simply lie around on Ossus if NOT being in the museum ? Again the only source mentioning Ossus before 5,000 BBY is the WotC game.

Name a source that contradicts it that is a higher level. Unless you can do so, your oint is mute.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Andur should still have been able to deal with some thugs instead of getting killed.

Like I said, I have no answer for that.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I don't recall her name. It's stated in the DE comics that Vima failed to rescue her and then she went dark side, slaughtered the guy responsible for her daughters death and she started losing her connection to the force.

Now I remember that. It was Neema or something.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The Dark Jedi who started the Sith Empire were defeated by the Jedi in their time. So do you want to tell me that a bunch of guys being more powerful than Ragnos (who was basically "godlike" can be defeated by Jedi ?

Yes.

Originally posted by Borbarad
It basically makes no sense to assume that the Sith Lords had real Civil Wars going on for the entire time. They had Massasi to fight in these wars. By any logic - a Sith Lord like Ragnos, Sadow or Kressh could have schooled hundrets or even thousands of Massasi on his own so why wasting them against enemies like that ?

If a single Sith could school hundreds or thousands of Massassi, what would be the point of using Massassi in combat? Just to let you know, the True Sith Empire only lasted 2,000 years. It is possible Wars lasted most of that time.

Originally posted by Borbarad
For all we know they duelled to see who was the strongest (Ragnos killed Simus in a duel) and that isn't simply removing them from the "genetic pool" because they did live for several hundret years and could easily have produced children before reaching the real positions of power.

COULD have doesn't mean they did. Prove up, Nai.

Originally posted by Borbarad
See above. And why would they not do it in fair fights if the "strongest" should rule - that doesn't mean "the most manipulative one". These are not the PT Sith.

They killed each other by firing on an enemy ship(Malak, Naga) betraying their location to an overwhelming enemy force(Gav) letting age kill them(everyone on Ragnos) letting someone else weaken them and then shoot them with a blaser(Naga on Simus). Name one occasion when one Sith killed another in a fair fight.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Very nice, Glentract. It makes sense to have two persons in a position that only one could have at any time ?

Explain where the Sith Empire came from after Exar died then.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Again a very nice use of twisted logic. First you state that the battle against the Krath droids has only costed the life of a "few" Jedi to make them look better than the PT Jedi on Geonosis. Then you go on telling me that this battle - the only one we know of where actually massive numbers of Jedi were present - has decimated their numbers greatly.
From that point you conclude that there must have been TENS of thousands of Jedi because they still had a huge number left to fight Kun.
Can you tell me where the other thousands of Jedi were killed considering the fact that they were more powerful than the PT Jedi and there were only very few Dark Siders around ?

1. Explain Raxus Prime then. The Dark Reaper killed hundreds of Jedi there.
2. Explain the hundreds of possesed diciples Exar sent out to go kill Jedi after he killed Vodo.
3. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed by Mandalorians on Onderon.
4. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed by Mandalorians on Coruscant.
5. Explain the thousands of Jedi killed on Ossus when Ulic's forces kept many Jedi from escaping.
Then explain all of the other battles in which I am to lazy to name right now.
Really, there aren't many losses for the Jedi, now are there.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The 1000 years prior to the PT ? You talking about the era between the battle of Ruusan and the PT ? Sorry...but this statement is contradicted by past-ROTJ literature and Lucas himself.

Name some instances in which this is stated. I want some book titles and actual sites with GL stating that.

Originally posted by Borbarad
They still rated it high enough to fear them despite the fact that they had an entire army of droids on the ship to stop them.

They were cowards. Sidious had enough Clone Troopers on hand to kill Yoda yet he was still afraid of him.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Ripping the core of a star out is a "force push" for you ? Nice. Have you ever seen people "force pushing" large objects ? Yes ? Every force user in KotoR times is more powerful than Yoda because being able to hurt people by force pushing them ? Also very nice.

What do you think they used instead of a force push? Prove up when you state it's different.

So Yoda didn't hurt those two guards when he force pushed them against the wall and knocked them unconcious? Thanks for being a loser and twisting my words.

Originally posted by Borbarad
He wasn't still slowing down the speeder. Ever tried to grab on a car driving by ?

I actually have. I grabed a car that was going ~30 miles per hour and was fine.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes. But energy doesn't matter. The force acts through the Jedi and the amount of energy the force has access to is unlimited. That's the reason why some of the NJO people can "control" black holes.

They can only let a certain amount of this energy through. If I had a 1 inch pipe and I was trying to drain the ocean and you had a 100 foot wide pipe and you were trying to do the same thing, you would be able to acess more water.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Sadow used his amulett, his ship and SOME chrystals boosting his force powers to do what he did. Actually more things than DE Sidious had. And Kun himself having entire Sith temples to focus his own force powers and a Sith amulett wasn't able to destroy the Republic fleet that came to kill him where Sidious was able to obliterate fleets with his force storms.

Sidious had control of the Eclipse. Also, show some source that shows that Nada used mutiple amulets.

Originally posted by Borbarad
There is only ONE holocron. Through the entire JA books it's always called THE Jedi Holocron. Not "one of the holocrons" not "a Jedi Holocron" - the Jedi Holocron because there is only one of them.

Just like there was only ONE battle in the Great Sith War, huh. You have one source against mutiple ones I have presented.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. Right. Perfect. If Vodo was the gatekeeper of his holocron he would have been the first person showing up when somebody uses the holocron making it pretty pointless to have Luke asking to speak to Vodo.

Hmm? I'm not getting what you're saying here. You are the one who said he asking for Vodo. Sidious had Bodo's holocron. Vodo's was the one that was destroyed.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I was simply using the last numbers I had - does that matter for your argumentation here ? And you know that the Essential Guides chronology (where there is no other source and this is the case for most things that did happen prior to 5,000 BBY) is based on the WotC SW RPG ? On the same level we can simply end this discussion because Yoda would kill anyone else according to WotC sources and even people like Vader, Dooku, Sidious and Mace have a good chance to defeat Kun on their own (Kun is rated level 17; Vader, Sidious, Dooku and Mace 18).

Sorry, but the Essential Guides are canon only surpassed by the Movies and a GL quote.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Yes ? Give me some proof or a single statement that this lightsaber was constructed on Ossus 10,000 years BBY and not simply stored in the museum there. Why the hell would a 10,000 year old lightsaber simply lie around on Ossus if NOT being in the museum ? Again the only source mentioning Ossus before 5,000 BBY is the WotC game.

Name a source that contradicts it that is a higher level. Unless you can do so, your oint is mute.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Andur should still have been able to deal with some thugs instead of getting killed.

Like I said, I have no answer for that.

Also, how is the Essential Guide from the same thing as those game stats if it is licensed by Lucas Books?

The Essential Guide is far more accurate than game stats.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yes.


Of course, Glentract.



The question was what would be the point to use Massasi against each other in combat ? Having more troops doesn't mean you're the "stronger" person.



Prove the opposite. This leads nowhere.



Hell, Glentract. Malak is a lord of the ancient Sith Empire ? No. Naga was defending the title that he already did have. Gav is a Sith ? ROFL. Letting age do the thing instead of getting killed - who would not do that ? Naga vs Simus head in a box? Nice fight. lol.
Simus vs Ragnos - fair fight since it has been a duel and Ragnos beheaded Simus.
Naga vs Sadow - they did fight for the title in a duel until Ragnos' spirit has shown up.



What "Sith Empire" ? Next Sith after Exar were Revan and Malak and you know where they came from.



Awful enough...



Millions Glentract...billions even...



When ?



When ?



When ?

Hell...does "throwing random numbers in and call them canon" is your favourite game now or what ? Did we ever see thousands of Jedi being killed ? Did it say somewhere that thousands of Jedi were killed ? No ? Then stop that "thousands of Jedi" thing.



I have given several examples for Jedi between Ruusan and the PT having children and Lucas said in an interview with BBC that he never thought about the Jedi being celibate.



Levitation abilities. Simple as that. Or do you want to tell me that Yoda "force pushed" that big thing made of metal away that Dooku threw on Obi-Wan and Anakin ? And Aleema Keto "carried" the core of a star with her and threw it onto the Republics fleet. Force push ?



Oh. I'm a loser ? And least I don't have to lie to people here, hmm ? Did he kill them with that action ? Did he hurt Sidious with force pushing him ?



You were standing around somewhere and - just for the fun of it - grabed a car that was going around 30 miles per hour and kept hanging on it while it went on without getting hurt ? You must show me that trick one day - and that speeder was moving FAR faster than 30 mph.



And now ? What do you want to tell me ?



Since when is the Eclipse a product of Sith Alchemy aiding once force powers ? And Sadow didn't use multiple amulets. He used multiple chrystals, his amulet and his ship. And that is a fact because all those things are present when Aleema is using Sadow's ship to destroy Ossus.



You presented one...



It is the same holocron. Bodo received it as a heir of Vodo, organized the information stored in it and made himself the new gatekeeper. Then Sidious took it after Bodo was killed. That's it.



Since when ? The Essential Guides only takes information from different sources and organizes them. If the Essential Guides uses information from the WotC game does that make the WotC game more canon than any EU source or what ? In fact everything can be considered more "canon" than the Essential Guides because they are just a summary of things shown in different EU sources. So if the Essential Guides contradicts the actual EU sources it is simply wrong.



Higher level according to what ? WotC game = EU, Tales of the Jedi = EU. Essential guide taking information from both = EU. If you want to take the Essential guides or the WotC game as "higher level" canon compared to TOTJ this discussion is senseless as I've told you.

Originally posted by Borbarad
The question was what would be the point to use Massasi against each other in combat ? Having more troops doesn't mean you're the "stronger" person.

You were the one who said the Massassi fought instead of the Sith. This isn't true. Unless mutated by Sith Magic(Like Naga's Massassi) they were good for nothing except building things. Since the Sith fought Wars and the Massassi were much weaker than the Sith, it is only logical that the Sith fought each other personally, especially since Kreia tells us that Civil War is the Way of the Sith.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Prove the opposite. This leads nowhere.

Burden of proof is on you.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Hell, Glentract. Malak is a lord of the ancient Sith Empire ? No. Naga was defending the title that he already did have. Gav is a Sith ? ROFL. Letting age do the thing instead of getting killed - who would not do that ? Naga vs Simus head in a box? Nice fight. lol.
Simus vs Ragnos - fair fight since it has been a duel and Ragnos beheaded Simus.
Naga vs Sadow - they did fight for the title in a duel until Ragnos' spirit has shown up.

Naga was not defending his title, he was fighting for it against Kressh. Gav was was Sadow's apprentice. Letting age do it instead, still isn't a fair fight. Naga vs. Sadow? I don't remember that one. If you mean Naga vs. Kressh, it doesn't matter because they didn't kill one another.

Originally posted by Borbarad
What "Sith Empire" ? Next Sith after Exar were Revan and Malak and you know where they came from.

The True Sith Empire still existed though. That was what Revan went to fight. Kreia tells up that Revan's Empire and the True Sith Empire are different things.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Awful enough...



Originally posted by Borbarad
Millions Glentract...billions even...

What problem do you have with this? Any reason for making fun of it?

Originally posted by Borbarad
When ?

Essential Guide to Chronology: It was in one of the Battles of Onderon, I don't remember which one. There were thousands of Jedi Archeologist on Onderon and the Mandalorian forces went in and slaugtered them.

Originally posted by Borbarad
When ?

Essential Guide to Chronology: When Ulic used the Mandalorians to launch an attack on Coruscant. The attack was unsuccessful(Ulic was captured), but thousands of Jedi died in the Defense of Coruscant.

Originally posted by Borbarad
When ?

Essential Guide to Chronology: When the Jedi were trying to evacuate Ossus after the star went Nova.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Hell...does "throwing random numbers in and call them canon" is your favourite game now or what ? Did we ever see thousands of Jedi being killed ? Did it say somewhere that thousands of Jedi were killed ? No ? Then stop that "thousands of Jedi" thing.

Yes, it did. The Essential Guide to Chronology has tons of info in it.

Originally posted by Borbarad
I have given several examples for Jedi between Ruusan and the PT having children and Lucas said in an interview with BBC that he never thought about the Jedi being celibate.

Could you recap on them, I can't find them.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Levitation abilities. Simple as that. Or do you want to tell me that Yoda "force pushed" that big thing made of metal away that Dooku threw on Obi-Wan and Anakin ? And Aleema Keto "carried" the core of a star with her and threw it onto the Republics fleet. Force push ?

And how do you think it was levitated? Were they using force push in a direction opposite of gravity? Yes, they were.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh. I'm a loser ? And least I don't have to lie to people here, hmm ? Did he kill them with that action ? Did he hurt Sidious with force pushing him ?

Now I am lying? You're twisting my words. I said he knocked them unconcious. Seeing them lying on the ground, motionless, didn't lead you to the same conclusion? He probably did hurts Sidious when he force pushed him. Did he kill him or knock him unconcious? No, but it did hurt him.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You were standing around somewhere and - just for the fun of it - grabed a car that was going around 30 miles per hour and kept hanging on it while it went on without getting hurt ? You must show me that trick one day - and that speeder was moving FAR faster than 30 mph.

I'm not a Jedi. If I can jump onto a car moving thirty, a Jedi should be able to jump onto a speeder moving a hundred.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And now ? What do you want to tell me ?

It was your statement. You said, "Yes. But energy doesn't matter. The force acts through the Jedi and the amount of energy the force has access to is unlimited. That's the reason why some of the NJO people can "control" black holes." I was saying that even though that energy is there, they can only acess a certain amount at a given time.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since when is the Eclipse a product of Sith Alchemy aiding once force powers ? And Sadow didn't use multiple amulets. He used multiple chrystals, his amulet and his ship. And that is a fact because all those things are present when Aleema is using Sadow's ship to destroy Ossus.

The Eclipse engaged the fleets. Sidious commanded the Eclipse. Prove that those things were with Aleema. You're dodging the bullet.

Originally posted by Borbarad
You presented one...

I presented Raxus Prime, the Battle of Onderon, the Battle of Coruscant, and the Battle of Ossus. That isn't just one.

Originally posted by Borbarad
It is the same holocron. Bodo received it as a heir of Vodo, organized the information stored in it and made himself the new gatekeeper. Then Sidious took it after Bodo was killed. That's it.

That's not what the Essential Guide says and the Essentail Guides have canon over regular books.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Since when ? The Essential Guides only takes information from different sources and organizes them. If the Essential Guides uses information from the WotC game does that make the WotC game more canon than any EU source or what ? In fact everything can be considered more "canon" than the Essential Guides because they are just a summary of things shown in different EU sources. So if the Essential Guides contradicts the actual EU sources it is simply wrong.

The Essential Guides are personally authorised by Lucas though.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Higher level according to what ? WotC game = EU, Tales of the Jedi = EU. Essential guide taking information from both = EU. If you want to take the Essential guides or the WotC game as "higher level" canon compared to TOTJ this discussion is senseless as I've told you.

I guess we'll just need to ask a mod what KMC's canon policy in this instance is, then.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
You were the one who said the Massassi fought instead of the Sith. This isn't true. Unless mutated by Sith Magic(Like Naga's Massassi) they were good for nothing except building things. Since the Sith fought Wars and the Massassi were much weaker than the Sith, it is only logical that the Sith fought each other personally, especially since Kreia tells us that Civil War is the Way of the Sith.

Massasi = workers / fighers
Sith = dominating the Massasi being force users (Sith priesthood)
Who would be powerful enough to lead an army of Sith priests into battle (civil war) ?



Naga was the DLOS when he blasted Kressh's ship.



Was Gav a real Sith ? No.



Again: "The strongest shall rule." In case of Ragnos the strongest did rule. Why somebody should waste his life trying to fight somebody that he can't defeat ?



They were fighting for the title of the Dark Lord so it does matter. It was a duel. Same thing with Ragnos vs Simus.



If the ancient Sith Empire still existed Revan, Malak and Exar Kun could never have been Dark Lords of the Sith because there can only be one Dark Lord at any time. Ragnos did give that title to Kun personally so at least Kun had a justification to use that title which means there was no other Dark Lord at this time which means that the Sith Empire didn't exist any longer.
And since yourself statet that literature is on a higher level of canon than the cames TOTJ and JA book > KotoR II.




Give me the real source that states that there were thousands of Jedi Archeologist on Onderon.



Give me the real source stating that thousands of Jedi died during that attack.



Again: Give me the source stating that thousands of Jedi were killed.



Real sources please.



Vima Da-Boda's mother (-> Vima)
Vima herself (-> her daughter)
Xanatos (-> had a son)
Halcyon, Corran's grandfather (died in the Clone Wars)
Sharad Hett (-> A'Sharad Hett)

Lucas statement about Jedi being celibate:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/film/1989505.stm

Quote:"Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that is forbidden is attachments - and possessive relationships."



What a theory. A force push is a short wave of kynetic energy going in one direction. What are you trying to tell me ? That Yoda force pushed Luke's X-Wing out of the swamp on Dagobah ?



Do you see a difference between hurting people by just force pushing them and thereby send them flying until they land on the ground and slamming them to a wall by force pushing them ? There is one.



The point is if you grab to a vehicle moving with a considerable amount of speed you will either not be able to grab on it and then hanging on it or you will get several broken bones trying to do so.



Yes. A certain amount. Considering how much power the force provides the energy required to move a few tons of stuff (like Luke's X-Wing) is a very small part of the entire force energy present. Therefore it basically only requires focus to move objects and therefore it's harder to move a grain of sand than moving a bigger object.



a) Sidious unleashed a force storm that destroy ships.
b) Read the comics if you don't thrust me.



I was talking about battles where thousands of Jedi were present and you simply estimated which battles would fit into that category by estimating there must have been thousands of Jedi in this or that place without providing a real source for it.



No it doesn't because the Essential Guide only takes informations from the books. By saying the Essential guide is canon over regular books you're saying that the books are canon over the books and nothing more.



So are the books, the Clone War cartoons, the WotC RPG stats and so on...



You are stating that the Essential Guides are > books and that isn't simply true because the Essential Guides are using the books as sources and they are even using the WotC RPG, the videogames and the cartoons / comics and by any means the WotC RPG and the games aren't higher "canon" then the books. And if you think that they are then this debate is pointless because by giving the WotC RPG a status of being higher canon than the books Yoda > all ; Dooku, Mace, Sidious, OT Vader > Exar Kun.

Like I said in the other thread we have been debating over, I'm done with this. Neither of us is making a point, it's turned into a waste of time. I think I'm right, you think you are. Neither of us can change the other's mind. Moving on.

In terms of Kyps force potential, I believe him to be more powerful then Luke based on the assumption that both Luke and Leia are equally as powerful. If you remeber in the jedi academy novels when Luke presses the nub (only present in a potential jedis brain) in Leia he is only pushed back slightly but when he does it to Kyp he is thrown across the room.