Kyp Durron vs. Count Dooku

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Luke had Jacen and Jaina with him. These Slayer dudes were good. They were able to be hit in the same place several times with a lightsaber and not be cut by it. Luke instakilled one of them. Plus, this is Luke we're talking about. Luke would waste Dooku. And Kyp having the raw power doesn't mean he has the skill. Could Anakin take Mace? No, but Anakin had far greater potential. Kyp has better training than Anakin though, giving him the edge to beat someone like Dooku.

a)
Luke did most of the work on his own and he killed them with one single lightsaber swing each.

b)
Kyp having better training than Anakin ? I think you're talking about Anakin Skywalker but he would have better training because he was trained in a time Lucas himself called the "Golden Age of the Jedi" under Jedi like Yoda or Mace Windu and had more than 1,000 hours of lightsaber sparring fights against Obi-Wan (according to the ROTS novel). Of course he has some force powers that seem to surpass what ROTS Anakin was able to do but he has to take Dooku with a lightsaber and if Obi-Wan and Anakin, both with 1,000+ hours of lightsaber practice fights and 3 years of war experience (including fights with people like Asajj Ventress and Dooku himself) can't take Dooku I don't think Kyp can do that.

Deflect Sith Lightning is not a Jedi power. It's based on force defence. Do you think that Kyp's force defence is as good as that of Yoda and Mace ? When you have a look at the WotC SW RPG stats (which I hate but they are Lucas approved) Yoda's force defence is almost twice as good as the force defence of NJO Luke.

Of course Kyp can deflect Sith Lightning with his lightsaber (I guess he can) but what would stop Dooku from duelling Kyp with one hand (which is part of his style) and use Sith Lightning with the other hand (which he could as seen in AotC) ?

Force users are different from normal melee combatants because they are simply faster, have better reactions and can perform actions that are impossible for a normal person. Do you think even the best swordfighter on earth would have a chance to defeat a Jedi / Sith with lightning fast reflexes (even if their weapons would be able to withstand lightsaber hits) ? I doubt it...

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
a)
Luke did most of the work on his own and he killed them with one single lightsaber swing each.

That's an EU inconsistency.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
b)
Kyp having better training than Anakin ? I think you're talking about Anakin Skywalker but he would have better training because he was trained in a time Lucas himself called the "Golden Age of the Jedi" under Jedi like Yoda or Mace Windu and had more than 1,000 hours of lightsaber sparring fights against Obi-Wan (according to the ROTS novel). Of course he has some force powers that seem to surpass what ROTS Anakin was able to do but he has to take Dooku with a lightsaber and if Obi-Wan and Anakin, both with 1,000+ hours of lightsaber practice fights and 3 years of war experience (including fights with people like Asajj Ventress and Dooku himself) can't take Dooku I don't think Kyp can do that.

Anakin was trained by Mace and Yoda, but Kyp was trained by Luke and Luke is far more powerful than Mace or Yoda. Kyp started sparring as soon as he started his Jedi Training. Okay, it was about two weeks after, but he has sparred Jedi more than Anakin has. Now, I don't see Dooku fairing well against Kyp using only one hand, nor has Dooku ever been shown to be able to use lightning while lightsaber fighting. Anakin has three years war experince, Kyp has over ten years war experince. War experince is one of the reasons that NJO Jedi got so powerful so fast, they live in a state of War.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Deflect Sith Lightning is not a Jedi power. It's based on force defence. Do you think that Kyp's force defence is as good as that of Yoda and Mace ? When you have a look at the WotC SW RPG stats (which I hate but they are Lucas approved) Yoda's force defence is almost twice as good as the force defence of NJO Luke.

Yes, Kyp probably has force defense on their level. Even if he doesn't, does it matter. His force defense is FAR passed AOTC Obi-wans. Those stats suck. They are like the Clone Wars Cartoon, completly unreasonable.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Of course Kyp can deflect Sith Lightning with his lightsaber (I guess he can) but what would stop Dooku from duelling Kyp with one hand (which is part of his style) and use Sith Lightning with the other hand (which he could as seen in AotC) ?

Dooku hasn't shown the ability to do that while fighting with a lightsaber. Kyp favors heavy power in his strikes. There is no way Dooku will be able to block his attacks with one hand. The ROTS novel says that Makashi users suffer from the lack of ability to generate a lot of physical power, and that's at least as reputable as any stats you can give for them.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Force users are different from normal melee combatants because they are simply faster, have better reactions and can perform actions that are impossible for a normal person. Do you think even the best swordfighter on earth would have a chance to defeat a Jedi / Sith with lightning fast reflexes (even if their weapons would be able to withstand lightsaber hits) ? I doubt it...

Nai, Echani. Mandalorians. Yuuzhan Vong. All are non-force users and all have killed Jedi in melee. (actually, I'm not sure in the Echani have.) On Earth, it's certainly possible. The forc isn't the only way to detect people's movements. Now, the best human against a common Jedi, the human would have a chance. Against Kyp or Dooku, you are right, no chance.

Darth_Glentract

I wrote this story a while back. It fits this thread, so I'm just going to post it here. I hope you like it.(Nai, please don't accuse me of trying to use this as an argument, it isn't one.)

Kyp Durron hotfooteded Anakin, driving the Jedi Knight back several steps. Both were powerful practitioners of Shem Jo, the fifth style of lightsaber combat. Their blades clashed with incredible fury; the power of each stroke incredible.

Both were rebellious and both believed in aggression as a method of keeping the peace. Both had harsh childhoods and both were orphans. Both had incredible raw force potential. Anakin had more force potential though. Kyp was smarter though. Anakin had more training, but Kyp had spent more time in War, making him extremely though. The hundreds of melee battles he fought in the Yuuzhan Vong War made him impressive in blade skills.

Anakin channeled every bit of the Force he could into each strike. Kyp put enough power into his swings to block Anakin, but added more technique into his strikes. Kyp knew of the Darkside and how to harness it. He did.
Pulsing with power, Kyp unleashed a bone shattering onslaught that Anakin could barely defend against. Anakin was a servant of the Living Force. Every time Kyp hit him with lightning, he released into back into the Fiving Force. Whenever Kyp tried to use the Force to Push Anakin, that also was released into the Living Force.

Anakin understood that Kyp wasn�t a true Jedi; that none of the Order his Son had created were. That they believed in what was wrong. That they used the ends to justify the means when it suited them. That they called upon the Darkside. That they must be stopped. Kyp, a powerful member of the New Order would be missed. He had to defeat him.

Releasing more of himself into the force, Anakin once again increased the power behind his attacks. The flow of the force flowed through him. It guided his arms, his legs, his mind. The increased fury came as a surprise to Kyp, forcing Kyp to call more upon the Unifying Force.

So similar people; so different beliefs.
As they exchanged strikes, Anakin lost himself in the flow of the Force only to be suddenly brought back from it by a solid kick to jaw; Kyp�s boot imprinted his face. Kyp took this moment of confusion to lift Anakin in a Force Grip. Clenching his fist, he squeezed the boys body with his will power.

Gasping for air, Anakin became confused, almost frantic. Suddenly something called to him. He wasn�t sure what it was at first, but after a few seconds of think about it, he realized it must be what Master Windu described as a Shatterpoint. It was the first time he had ever seen one. Barely moving his hand, Anakin threw the small container into Kyp�s knee at near terminal velocity.

The knee snapped in what sounded like a permanent break. Enraged, Kyp threw his lightsaber at Anakin with a Force-enhanced throw. Anakin managed to break Kyp�s grip with less than a second to spare and barely dodged the strike.
He then rushed Kyp and with a wide swing he cut a ditch an inch deep into Kyp�s chest. Doing this allowed Kyp, with the power of the Force, to bring his blade through Anakin, stabbing through his back and coming out of his chest. A few seconds later, Anakin Skywalker, the Chose One, fell to the ground dead.

xxxpoppunker182

this is kinda off topic or maybe its just utterly wrong. to me the NJO jedi don't have the proper fighting techniques. like the jedi of th PT era actually had forma and masters of each form that had been taught to others and such. Luke in no way could teach his students the 7 forms. he just doesnt know them. and even if ben or yoda explained them to him so what you could explain it to anyone but that doesnt make them able to teach it. that does make sense right? well i hope so but thats just a point i wanted to share. i'd say dooku wins. better knowledge of the force and is one great fighter.

ya kyp may have fought in harsh wars but that doesnt make his style of fighting that good and he wasnt fighting other force users on par with dooku's lvl

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
That's an EU inconsistency.

No. It isn't. It's a display of force aided physical strength. And you can even see that in the films. In ROTS Dooku is able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan with one hand (he's holding his lightsaber in a horizontal position while Obi-Wan and Anakin hit it from above) while he was using both hands against Yoda when engaging in a saberlock and Yoda still pushed him back.

Kyp started sparring as soon as he started Jedi Training ? Did you notice that Luke was the only person having a lightsaber in the Jedi Academy ? At the end of the Jedi Academy Trilogy they had two lightsabers: Luke's and the one Gantoris constructed.

Why the hell would Kyp have sparred Jedi more than Anakin has considering the fact that there were around 10,000 Jedi in the time from TPM to AotC and much less in Kyp's time ?

Using one hand is part of Dooku's style and when he can deal with Anakin and Obi-Wan at once why would he not be able to fight well against Kyp ?
And the reason the NJO Jedi got so powerful is that they don't limit themselves much with "moral" issues (using both sides of the force) and Luke discovered some sources the Jedi didn't have (the entire "making stuff invisible thing" or "creating illusions" wink

.

How would he ?

You don't have to generate physical power to counter physical power. Being a fencer like Dooku you would simply redirect the physical power. Hell...if you try to counter physical power with physical power with "normal" blades the result will be some broken weapons.

Give me the name of one single Echani, Mandalorian or non-force user that did kill a Jedi in direct melee combat...In fact in every single situation somebody is talking of a non-force-user fighting a Jedi the non-force-user get creamed (Yusanis, Mandalore) unless they use assasination tactics (Atton, HK-47). So ?

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
No. It isn't. It's a display of force aided physical strength. And you can even see that in the films. In ROTS Dooku is able to parry Anakin and Obi-Wan with one hand (he's holding his lightsaber in a horizontal position while Obi-Wan and Anakin hit it from above) while he was using both hands against Yoda when engaging in a saberlock and Yoda still pushed him back.

So what if he blocked Obi-wan and Anakin. I am saying that Kyp is more powerful than either of them.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Kyp started sparring as soon as he started Jedi Training ? Did you notice that Luke was the only person having a lightsaber in the Jedi Academy ? At the end of the Jedi Academy Trilogy they had two lightsabers: Luke's and the one Gantoris constructed.

I guess you haven't read the book. Corran had one, as well as Mara and Kam. Luke had mutiple, which it makes sense that he used them to have his students spar.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Why the hell would Kyp have sparred Jedi more than Anakin has considering the fact that there were around 10,000 Jedi in the time from TPM to AotC and much less in Kyp's time ?

Less Jedi, but more sparring. He can spar the same Jedi twice.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Using one hand is part of Dooku's style and when he can deal with Anakin and Obi-Wan at once why would he not be able to fight well against Kyp ?
And the reason the NJO Jedi got so powerful is that they don't limit themselves much with "moral" issues (using both sides of the force) and Luke discovered some sources the Jedi didn't have (the entire "making stuff invisible thing" or "creating illusions" wink

.

Because Kyp is more powerful than either of them. That isn't the sole reason. Much of it can in fact be contributed to their experince in war. Reguarless, even you agree NJO Jedi are extremely powerful.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
How would he ?

Because he has the raw power and the training.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
You don't have to generate physical power to counter physical power. Being a fencer like Dooku you would simply redirect the physical power. Hell...if you try to counter physical power with physical power with "normal" blades the result will be some broken weapons.

You're not going to break a lightsaber blade. And show that Dooku can redirect power more easily than Kyp can generate it.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Give me the name of one single Echani, Mandalorian or non-force user that did kill a Jedi in direct melee combat...In fact in every single situation somebody is talking of a non-force-user fighting a Jedi the non-force-user get creamed (Yusanis, Mandalore) unless they use assasination tactics (Atton, HK-47). So ?

The Mandalorians fought an entire war against the Jedi. Actually, they fought two. You think that because I don't have any names, they never killed a Jedi? We've seen them praticing with blades, they do use them against them.

Non-force user. Okay. Over fifty Jedi were killed by Vong, one of which was a Old Republic Jedi.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So what if he blocked Obi-wan and Anakin. I am saying that Kyp is more powerful than either of them.

He parried them both at the same time. Do you want to tell me that Kyp is stronger than Anakin and Obi-Wan together ?

And I guess you didn't read my post. You said that Kyp started practicing against other Jedi when he started his training (Jedi Academy trilogy) and there are only two lightsabers on Yavin 4 at that time. One being Luke's lightsaber and the other one was built by Gantoris. Period.

Oh great. Proof that he went to more than 1,000 hours of sparing completely ignoring the fact that Luke wasn't focused on lightsaber combat as much as the PT Jedi. And even if you can proof that - had he ever fought people like Mace (a lightsaber prodigy), Yoda, Anakin or Obi-Wan ? I doubt that.

People having more training and more raw power (Anakin) are nowhere near Mace or Yoda in terms of force defence but Kyp is ?

Redirecting power can be done by simply positioning the blade in a certain degree. If Dooku had problems with Anakin (who has a mechanical arm and is stronger than Kyp - note that he was holding the weight of himself, Obi-Wan and Palpatine during their escape from the Invisible Hand with that arm) he would have used both hands - and he didn't. And if the novel contradicts the movie the movie is right. Sorry...

The Mandalorians fought an entire war against the Jedi and republic troops. Yes. We see them practicing with blades in KotoR 2 and then the best of the Mandalorian Champions (!) tells us that he wasn't able to overcome a Jedi in direct confrontation during the war. Hmm...so who would be able to do that when the champs can't do it. Mandalore himself ?

Killed by people wearing armours that can't be penetrated by lightsabers, can't be affected by the force and wield weapon that can withstand lightsaber hits ? The Vong aren't "the biggest threat the galaxy has ever seen" without a reason...

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
He parried them both at the same time. Do you want to tell me that Kyp is stronger than Anakin and Obi-Wan together ?

Yes, that is what I am saying. Dooku is more powerful than both of them, and I'm saying Kyp is more powerful than Dooku. Add it up.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
And I guess you didn't read my post. You said that Kyp started practicing against other Jedi when he started his training (Jedi Academy trilogy) and there are only two lightsabers on Yavin 4 at that time. One being Luke's lightsaber and the other one was built by Gantoris. Period.

Corran and Kam both got there before him. There were more than just two lightsabers! Where did you get that crap?

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Oh great. Proof that he went to more than 1,000 hours of sparing completely ignoring the fact that Luke wasn't focused on lightsaber combat as much as the PT Jedi. And even if you can proof that - had he ever fought people like Mace (a lightsaber prodigy), Yoda, Anakin or Obi-Wan ? I doubt that.

Prove that Luke as focused on lightsaber combat as PT Jedi. He had them sparring within two weeks of getting there! That's faster than any PT Jedi. Yes, he did fight powerful people. He fought Luke, Jacen, Corran, Kyle. Any of those people could give Anakin or Obi-wan a very hard time, and he beat them all.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
People having more training and more raw power (Anakin) are nowhere near Mace or Yoda in terms of force defence but Kyp is ?

Please read your post. It sounds stupid. Since when does Anakin have more training than Kyp? And Anakin's power doesn't seem like it was far above Kyp's. Anakin has 13 years. Kyp has 19 years. Kyp advanced more in two weeks than the other students did in six. Anakin didn't seem to be advancing three times as fast as everyone around him. Now, Kyp probably slowed down after a while. Anakin proably didn't slow down as soon. Still, Kyp has six years more training. Six more years of Luke's training, which allows students to gain power more quickly than the PT Jedi did, but also pushes them closer to the Darkside.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Redirecting power can be done by simply positioning the blade in a certain degree. If Dooku had problems with Anakin (who has a mechanical arm and is stronger than Kyp - note that he was holding the weight of himself, Obi-Wan and Palpatine during their escape from the Invisible Hand with that arm) he would have used both hands - and he didn't. And if the novel contradicts the movie the movie is right. Sorry...

Anakin held all three of them in the Clone Wars Cartoon. This is preposterous to use in debates because even though it is Lucas approved, it goes agains the movies. Mace as seen in the Clone Wars could have killed every droid on Geonosis by himself. They are vastly exxagerated in that.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The Mandalorians fought an entire war against the Jedi and republic troops. Yes. We see them practicing with blades in KotoR 2 and then the best of the Mandalorian Champions (!) tells us that he wasn't able to overcome a Jedi in direct confrontation during the war. Hmm...so who would be able to do that when the champs can't do it. Mandalore himself ?

Look at it another way. A Mandalorian was able to give Ulic fits. Ulic is a TON more powerful than Dooku. I woudn't be surprised if Ulic could take Dooku, Anakin, and Obi-wan by himself. The fact that a Mandalorian, any non-force user for that matter, gave Ulic difficulty is AMAZING. We're talking a guy who could take Yoda.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Killed by people wearing armours that can't be penetrated by lightsabers, can't be affected by the force and wield weapon that can withstand lightsaber hits ? The Vong aren't "the biggest threat the galaxy has ever seen" without a reason...

You just argued for Kyp. Him killing so many of them is testament to his power.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yes, that is what I am saying. Dooku is more powerful than both of them, and I'm saying Kyp is more powerful than Dooku. Add it up.

I was talking about physical strength. Not power.

Read the Jedi Academy trilogy and count how many lightsabers are used there. Always comes down to Luke's and the one Gantoris used. How would Corran Horn have a lightsaber before starting training in the academy - he was a fighter pilot in the Rogue Squadron. For Kam I'm not sure but the only people fighting with lightsabers in the JA trilogy are Luke and Gantoris (Luke defeats Gantoris), Jacen (killing beasts using Luke's lightsaber) and two of Luke's students (using Gantoris and Luke's lightsaber to overcome Kun).

If you just didn't realize it: Building your own lightsaber was the last test before becoming a Jedi Knight so non of Luke's student did have a lightsaber and I don't remember any "practice fights" in the JA trilogy.

Where did Luke made his students sparring eachothers ? And when did Kyp fight all those people ?

What the hell, Glentract ?
First off Anakin was trained for 10 years (before the Clone Wars started), while Kyp didn't really had that amount of "training". Yes he did advance fast but he hadn't Luke potential which is - by any logic - less than Anakin's.
And Anakin didn't advance fast ? He became Jedi Knight aftter 12 or 13 years of Jedi training (as fast as Mace, twice as fast compared to Obi-Wan himself) and was about to become a regular Council Member in the age of 22 (this is what Obi-Wan in ROTS told him and he would have been the youngest Council Member ever).

And Luke trained his students like Yoda trained him: That's basically a VERY compressed Jedi Training to give them some basics. Luke himself told Kyp that the ability to do something is all you need you have to understand what you doing. And you won't convince me that somebody with 2 decades of experience in force practice and lightsaber fighting practice would be superior to somebody who has 8 decades experience in both.

No. I said "during the escape from the invisible hand". He did that in ROTS (!) and not in the Cartoons. When they were running through the elevator shaft and the ship turned again you can see Anakin grabing on something with his mechanical hand while having Obi-Wan on his back and Palpatine hanging on them.

Give me some proof that Ulic is more powerful than Dooku. Again somebody with less than 4 years of experience outclassing somebody with 8 decades of experience. Stop it.

He failed against a single YV slayer. And when Luke can kill them with a "force lightning like ability" what do you think Dooku would do ?

Darth Faunus

Look at it another way. A Mandalorian was able to give Ulic fits. Ulic is a TON more powerful than Dooku. I woudn't be surprised if Ulic could take Dooku, Anakin, and Obi-wan by himself. The fact that a Mandalorian, any non-force user for that matter, gave Ulic difficulty is AMAZING. We're talking a guy who could take Yoda.

Oh, please. A Mandalorian gave Ulic fits when another Mandalorian Champion couldn't overcome a Jedi? You realize that you just lowered Ulic's status?

And I would be very surprised indeed if Ulic could take this trio. Dooku alone would be a pain in the ass, and add a duo that gave Dooku himself trouble. . . You're going overboard with the Ulic stuff here.

Ulic would not take Yoda. he's good, no doubt. But I have extreme trouble believing that he can defeat a duelist who, unarmed, could evade blows from three Council members. Or simply overwhelm him with Force powers, considering the little green dude absorbed and reflected Force lightning at point-blank range.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
I was talking about physical strength. Not power.

Alright. Misunderstanding on my part. You're right there.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Read the Jedi Academy trilogy and count how many lightsabers are used there. Always comes down to Luke's and the one Gantoris used. How would Corran Horn have a lightsaber before starting training in the academy - he was a fighter pilot in the Rogue Squadron. For Kam I'm not sure but the only people fighting with lightsabers in the JA trilogy are Luke and Gantoris (Luke defeats Gantoris), Jacen (killing beasts using Luke's lightsaber) and two of Luke's students (using Gantoris and Luke's lightsaber to overcome Kun).

I'm talking about "I, Jedi". Same place, same time. It's written by the same author too. It shows JA from another angle(Corran's) for the first 150 or so pages. Corran got the lightsaber from his grandfather, you was a Jedi in the Clone Wars. Kam had his when he was a Dark Jedi for the Empire. Mara also had a lightsaber wheh she went there.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
If you just didn't realize it: Building your own lightsaber was the last test before becoming a Jedi Knight so non of Luke's student did have a lightsaber and I don't remember any "practice fights" in the JA trilogy.

See above. Remember, these books were written before PT, so the authors thought that all Jedi were trained like Luke. They believed that they went into training with a lightsaber. For the pratice fights, read "I, Jedi". (It's a good book to. I would recommend it in anycase.)

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Where did Luke made his students sparring eachothers ? And when did Kyp fight all those people ?

Kyp sparred Jedi during NJO. He never beat Luke(at least to my knowledge), but he was considered second only to Luke. We know he sparred them and we know he was considred better than them. That was a misstament on my part.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
What the hell, Glentract ?
First off Anakin was trained for 10 years (before the Clone Wars started), while Kyp didn't really had that amount of "training". Yes he did advance fast but he hadn't Luke potential which is - by any logic - less than Anakin's.
And Anakin didn't advance fast ? He became Jedi Knight aftter 12 or 13 years of Jedi training (as fast as Mace, twice as fast compared to Obi-Wan himself) and was about to become a regular Council Member in the age of 22 (this is what Obi-Wan in ROTS told him and he would have been the youngest Council Member ever).

12 years isn't to amazing for becoming a Knight. Luke did it in four. Jorus did it in four. I don't know exactly how long it took Kyp, but it was less than 12 I believe.

And now Luke's training is no longer "training"? Kyp began training 11 A.B.Y. and NJO goes until about 30 A.B.Y.(Somewhere between 28-30 A.B.Y.). Lets go with the lover number, 17 years by the end of NJO. Dark Nest is another eight years after that. that's 25 years of training. All except that last eight years of this is War Time. Anakin has three years War Time against Kyp's 17. Even Dooku has less War Time than Kyp.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
And Luke trained his students like Yoda trained him: That's basically a VERY compressed Jedi Training to give them some basics. Luke himself told Kyp that the ability to do something is all you need you have to understand what you doing. And you won't convince me that somebody with 2 decades of experience in force practice and lightsaber fighting practice would be superior to somebody who has 8 decades experience in both.

Luke began training them that way, but once their numbers expanded, they began taking Padawans like the old Order.

Look at it this way. Anakin advanced more in the three years of the Clone Wars than he did in the 10 years prior to that. Obi-wan advanced more in his three years in the Clone Wars than he did in the ten years before that. Now, Kyp has over five times their experince in War. It seems that War time training is FAR more effective than Temple training, which makes sense. It's similar to learning a language. I can learn more in a month in a foreign county than I can in a year in a class room.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
No. I said "during the escape from the invisible hand". He did that in ROTS (!) and not in the Cartoons. When they were running through the elevator shaft and the ship turned again you can see Anakin grabing on something with his mechanical hand while having Obi-Wan on his back and Palpatine hanging on them.

Alright. Yes, Anakin did do that. The problem I have with this though is that puny little Luke still overpowered Anakin in ROTJ.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Give me some proof that Ulic is more powerful than Dooku. Again somebody with less than 4 years of experience outclassing somebody with 8 decades of experience. Stop it.

It's Ulic. He stalemated Kun, nuff said.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
He failed against a single YV slayer. And when Luke can kill them with a "force lightning like ability" what do you think Dooku would do ?

That was NJO Kyp, and it wasn't even at the end of the NJO. It's also not force lightning. It's more similar to Kreia's instakill technique than force lightning. Jacen or Jaina(I don't remember which) used force lightning against Vong and it didn't kill them. The techniques are obviously far different.
Show me proof Dooku could defeat a slayer.

Fishy

One thing though, although I agree with you overall Nai. Mandelorians did kill Jedi in combat. Very few one on one perhaps none, but still they managed to take out Jedi in a fight. Melee fights even. Just means Jedi can be killed by none force users who use swords.

And even more important, Revan is famous for killing Mandalore and Yusanis. Why would he be famous for that if it doesn't mean anything?

Darth_Glentract

Does anyone know why part of my previous post in bold or is my monitor just screwed up?

Darth Faunus

You may have simply done something wrong with the coding.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Oh, please. A Mandalorian gave Ulic fits when another Mandalorian Champion couldn't overcome a Jedi? You realize that you just lowered Ulic's status?

The Mandalorian's were tattered at that point. Most of them were dead. Most of the bravest, most of the bravest, most powerful Mandalorians died at Malacor V. Revan must have had a hard time with the Mandalore he fought because it was so amazing that he defeated him. If Revan had walked in and slaughtered the Mandalore, it seems likely that they were near equal.

You can argue Revan is weak, but he defeated Malak on the Star Forge at least twice only using force powers while Malak had full force power capability.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
And I would be very surprised indeed if Ulic could take this trio. Dooku alone would be a pain in the ass, and add a duo that gave Dooku himself trouble. . . You're going overboard with the Ulic stuff here.

Ulic stalemated Exar. Exar defeated the spirit of an Ancient Sith and killed a lightsaber Grandmaster. The fight with Vodo wasn't even that close. Vodo is almost certainly better than Dooku, near definatly better than Obi-wan and Anakin.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Ulic would not take Yoda. he's good, no doubt. But I have extreme trouble believing that he can defeat a duelist who, unarmed, could evade blows from three Council members. Or simply overwhelm him with Force powers, considering the little green dude absorbed and reflected Force lightning at point-blank range.

Ulic's force powers are great. His Sith Amulet see's to that. Remember, these are PT Council Members, a far cry from Jedi Civil War or Great Sith War Council Members. We're getting non-topical here though. If you guys want to keep debating Ulic vs. the others, lets do it, but I'll drop it if you will.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I'm talking about "I, Jedi". Same place, same time. It's written by the same author too. It shows JA from another angle(Corran's) for the first 150 or so pages. Corran got the lightsaber from his grandfather, you was a Jedi in the Clone Wars. Kam had his when he was a Dark Jedi for the Empire. Mara also had a lightsaber wheh she went there.

Damn. I missed a piece of EU literature...

Now may I remember YOU that most of the EU was written before the PT ? In PT times 12 years were impressive considering Mace needed 13. And please...Luke can hardly be compared to PT Jedi in ROTJ.

Still this is nothing compared to Dooku's 8 decades of training.

Yes. But Kyp was only trained that way because he was one of Luke's first students. And it's still very "compressed" training.

That is really stupid considering the fact that they still had training in the temple during war times AND you won't get any inside from using a fighting technique on the battlefield - same counts for force powers.

He was striking with brute force on Vader's lightsaber while Vader was lying on the ground and Vader still kept the weapon up...he didn't even move his arm. In ANH Vader is lifting one of the Rebels up with one arm and kill him even with that hand. There is some power behind that mechanics...

He stalemated Kun when Kun wasn't the great lightsaber duellist and Sith Lord he became later.

Proof ? How should I since he never fought one ? Considering the fact that Dooku used a lightsaber style that is designed to be used against enemies with melee weapons and features extreme precision I would actually give him a better chance than Kyp to kill a slayer.

It was impressive for the Mandalorians. Hell...if I slaughter the best warrior you know you would still be impressed. That doesn't mean Mandalore and Revan were equal.

Yes. The PT Jedi are superior compared to the JCW and GSW people in terms of force use and lightsaber combat.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now may I remember YOU that most of the EU was written before the PT ? In PT times 12 years were impressive considering Mace needed 13. And please...Luke can hardly be compared to PT Jedi in ROTJ.

Jorus was a PT Jedi and it took him four years. I don't get your first sentence. It doesn't matter when it was written, that is just how it is.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Still this is nothing compared to Dooku's 8 decades of training.

Kyp has over five times the War Experince. It's also closer than the Handmaiden vs. her Sisters, which together had more than 80 years of training vs. her 20 or so years. You can't base this on experince alone, or even to this degree. It's how the experince was gained that matters.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Yes. But Kyp was only trained that way because he was one of Luke's first students. And it's still very "compressed" training.

He recieved almost exclusive training from Luke for several weeks. Luke is also self trained and Luke could pwn Dooku.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
That is really stupid considering the fact that they still had training in the temple during war times AND you won't get any inside from using a fighting technique on the battlefield - same counts for force powers.

Try reading a book and learn sword fighting then go against someone who has had both training from a book and actually engaged in real sword fighting and then tell me actual training isn't FAR more effective than book training.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
He stalemated Kun when Kun wasn't the great lightsaber duellist and Sith Lord he became later.

So Ulic didn't advance at all even though they still trained with each other.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Proof ? How should I since he never fought one ? Considering the fact that Dooku used a lightsaber style that is designed to be used against enemies with melee weapons and features extreme precision I would actually give him a better chance than Kyp to kill a slayer.

Works for me.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
It was impressive for the Mandalorians. Hell...if I slaughter the best warrior you know you would still be impressed. That doesn't mean Mandalore and Revan were equal.

They had been fighting him for 3 years and they still thought it was amazing he defeated Mandalore.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Yes. The PT Jedi are superior compared to the JCW and GSW people in terms of force use and lightsaber combat.

No, they aren't. Not even close.

xxxpoppunker182

from everything i've read glentrac it sound like you're saying kyp has more raw power than anikin and i thought that anikin had more than anybody during their time and lukes time. correct me if i'm wrong but thats what some of ur posts make it sound like.

second luke would not have been considered a jedi knight if he were alive during th PT era from the little training yoda gave him.

also luke wasnt that big on lightsaber combat he was more into figuring out the force and trying to "save" people from the darkside. thats just an assumption though from what he does after the movies and such.

the fact that kyp was fighting in wars against the galaxies greatest threat i'd say does give him an advantage. but i'm sorry glentrac kyp no matter what you say hasnt sparred with nearly as many people as obi wan anikin or dooku did. even if you give him like 30 years dooku has 80 and was one of the greatest of his time.

also anikin advanced alot quicker than anyone else did. personally i think that ankin was right when he said that he was ready for the trials in AOTC, but obi-wan just needed to teach him to stay level headed. (obi wan never did do that anyway...to a certain extent)

and luke did the force lightning thingy to the vong not kyp. i think someone somewhere said it was kyp in this thread.

also you can take someone with really good raw power some training with its power and some training with a lightsaber end put them up against someone with less raw power and physical strength but that doesnt mean they'll win.

when it comes down to it dooku has more saberskills than kyp. he's just better than kyp with a lightsaber. a makashi master. kyp may have the raw potential but unless its an assrape load more than dooku he can't over come him with force powers. and it'll then go to a ligthsaber match. where kyp is fighting someone that really knows his stuff.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Jorus was a PT Jedi and it took him four years. I don't get your first sentence. It doesn't matter when it was written, that is just how it is.

It does matter. From the impressions we got from the films Luke had only several days or weeks of training before becoming a Jedi Knight (the time he spend on Dagobah). So if Luke can get to Jedi Knight status in weeks (and a maximum of 6 months passed between the beginning of ESB and the end of ROTJ) than this is still impressive compared to four years (Joruus, ancient Jedi)

But

If you consider that even extremely gifted persons like Mace or Anakin needed more than a decade of training to become Jedi Knights it's simply not believeable any longer that Joruus did it in 4 years. Period.

Glentract. Now you really get horrible. The Handmaidens sisters each only had little more experience than the Handmaiden herself and you can't simply count their individual experience together. And notice that the Handmaiden had at least a little bit of Jedi training (more likely she was a Jedi at this point) where her sisters didn't.

Luke is "self trained" by Obi-Wan, Yoda a 4,000 year old Holocron (including several Jedi Masters).

What the hell, Glentract ? The PT Jedi did practice against each other. Dooku was a member of the Order for nearly 70 years. And when the practice times of Master - Padawan teams given for Anakin and Obi-Wan (more than 1,000 hours) are common within the order, Dooku had 1,000 hours of sparring with Yoda and another 1,000 hours of sparring with Qui-Gon. Not to mention training Komari Vosa and Grievous.

Not as much as Kun did. At least he had shown NO force feats that make him play in Kun's league.

Glentract. Stop it. It was amazing for them that somebody could defeat Mandalore. If they were really impressed that would actually more likely show that Revan pretty much slaughtered Mandalore instead of them both being equal opponents.

They are. I think I have to post my PT vs Ancient Jedi theory somewhere...

Deus Ex

Dooku wins this one. Ceasefire, men. Cesefire.

Veneficus

Forgive me Janus...but I really think that Dooku has been elevated to the point where he could win against just about anyone. I happen to know about Kyp Duron and I think that he could pull it off and defeat Dooku if just barley. Its not bias since I really don't care for the character.

Deus Ex

I've seen evidence from both sides myself, and I believe Dooku is far deadlier than Kyp is; he certainly has better self control than Kyp ever did.

Darth Faunus

Well, thankfully it's still accepted that he faces a chance of defeat from three fellow PT'ers. And in this case, I think he could take Kyp. But not easily by any means.

Tangible God

And Dooku has such a wonderful personality. He invited me and Mable out to Mustafar for the Long Weekend, and he said to Mable, he said, "That guy's a bum."

Of course he said this right when Gunray was walking by, and he just flew the biggest hissyfit EVER!

But then on my way to the Duty-Free shop, guess who I saw? General Grievous...oh, and he has gotten faaaat!

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
It does matter. From the impressions we got from the films Luke had only several days or weeks of training before becoming a Jedi Knight (the time he spend on Dagobah). So if Luke can get to Jedi Knight status in weeks (and a maximum of 6 months passed between the beginning of ESB and the end of ROTJ) than this is still impressive compared to four years (Joruus, ancient Jedi)

But

If you consider that even extremely gifted persons like Mace or Anakin needed more than a decade of training to become Jedi Knights it's simply not believeable any longer that Joruus did it in 4 years. Period.

So now you have decided that the rest of the EU is uncanon? That doesn't make much sense.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Glentract. Now you really get horrible. The Handmaidens sisters each only had little more experience than the Handmaiden herself and you can't simply count their individual experience together. And notice that the Handmaiden had at least a little bit of Jedi training (more likely she was a Jedi at this point) where her sisters didn't.

I notice you failed to mention Kyp having over five times the War experience.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Luke is "self trained" by Obi-Wan, Yoda a 4,000 year old Holocron (including several Jedi Masters).

Look at Luke in ESB, or even JK, then compare him to NJO him. Most of that was self training. The improvement from ESB-ROTJ was from a few books. Kyp has Luke to teach him, and Exar Kun(for a while).

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
What the hell, Glentract ? The PT Jedi did practice against each other. Dooku was a member of the Order for nearly 70 years. And when the practice times of Master - Padawan teams given for Anakin and Obi-Wan (more than 1,000 hours) are common within the order, Dooku had 1,000 hours of sparring with Yoda and another 1,000 hours of sparring with Qui-Gon. Not to mention training Komari Vosa and Grievous.

Don't forget Asajj and Sev'rance. This is not factual. Since when has 1000 hours of sparring been regular? Obi-wan and Anakin were together for 13 years and still it was considered impressive that they sparred this much. Unless you can prove Dooku came even close to this, it's time to drop this.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Not as much as Kun did. At least he had shown NO force feats that make him play in Kun's league.

He still matched Kun in lightsaber combat and was able to resist Kun's force powers.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Glentract. Stop it. It was amazing for them that somebody could defeat Mandalore. If they were really impressed that would actually more likely show that Revan pretty much slaughtered Mandalore instead of them both being equal opponents.

Does anything support this being a close fight other than that you think it would be more impressive if Mandalore was slaughtered?

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
They are. I think I have to post my PT vs Ancient Jedi theory somewhere...

The one about them having reached the peak in human capability? GO ahead, post it, but it doesn't seem logical to me.

Deus Ex

And we go into extra innings...

This ought to be interesting. Nai is notorious for being persistant. I think we proved that in our last debate... What was it? Ten, twenty pages back and forth?

Illustrious

The PT Jedi equaling Ancient Jedi is a bit of a stretch for me, especially considering the huge losses of life and material during the Jedi Civil Wars, their gradual change from front-line soldiers to diplomatic Jedi throughout the ages, and the decline of the Sith.

But sure, go ahead and humor me with that theory.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
from everything i've read glentrac it sound like you're saying kyp has more raw power than anikin and i thought that anikin had more than anybody during their time and lukes time. correct me if i'm wrong but thats what some of ur posts make it sound like.

That's not what I was trying to show. I was stating that Kyp advanced three times as fast as any other student.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
second luke would not have been considered a jedi knight if he were alive during th PT era from the little training yoda gave him.

I'm not to sure about this. He is better than many of them, even as of ROTJ.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
also luke wasnt that big on lightsaber combat he was more into figuring out the force and trying to "save" people from the darkside. thats just an assumption though from what he does after the movies and such.

His Jedi fought a five year war against sword wielders. He started teaching them lightsaber combat within the first few weeks of training. How can you logically say Luke didn't consider lightsaber combat important?

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
the fact that kyp was fighting in wars against the galaxies greatest threat i'd say does give him an advantage. but i'm sorry glentrac kyp no matter what you say hasnt sparred with nearly as many people as obi wan anikin or dooku did. even if you give him like 30 years dooku has 80 and was one of the greatest of his time.

Even if Kyp sparred less people he fought more to the death. Real combat is always more effective at teaching than sparring.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
also anikin advanced alot quicker than anyone else did. personally i think that ankin was right when he said that he was ready for the trials in AOTC, but obi-wan just needed to teach him to stay level headed. (obi wan never did do that anyway...to a certain extent)

So, after 10 years of training was Anakin better than Obi-wan as of TPM? No, he wasn't. Was he better than Jorus after four years of training, appears not. Nomi, nope. Luke, nope. Kyp, nope. Corran, nope. The list goes on and on.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
and luke did the force lightning thingy to the vong not kyp. i think someone somewhere said it was kyp in this thread.

That wasn't force lightning Luke used. It was some strange Instakill technique. Jaina would have reconized force lightning since she was able to use it(Destiny's Way). Kyp used some sort of force lightning after only a few months of training and was able to overwhelm Luke. On top of that, Obi-wan doesn't know force lightning, but he blocked Dooku's lightning with ease.

Next, Kyp has shown force power on a scale Dooku has never faced. Remember that black hole technique Luke did? Well guess what. Kyp did it too.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
also you can take someone with really good raw power some training with its power and some training with a lightsaber end put them up against someone with less raw power and physical strength but that doesnt mean they'll win.

The amount of training is less important than the quality of the training. Kyp had over five times the War Experince Dooku had and we have seen how effective even three years of War Experince was for Obi-wan and Anakin.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
when it comes down to it dooku has more saberskills than kyp. he's just better than kyp with a lightsaber. a makashi master. kyp may have the raw potential but unless its an assrape load more than dooku he can't over come him with force powers. and it'll then go to a ligthsaber match. where kyp is fighting someone that really knows his stuff.

Unfounded. I'm not to sure that Dooku is much better than Kyp in dueling, if he is better at all. Kyp is far stronger in force powers though, enough to overwhelm Dooku.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Illustrious
The PT Jedi equaling Ancient Jedi is a bit of a stretch for me, especially considering the huge losses of life and material during the Jedi Civil Wars, their gradual change from front-line soldiers to diplomatic Jedi throughout the ages, and the decline of the Sith.

Oh. This is a strange for you. Let's see how many 10,000 character postings I'll need to explain it...

To start a theory about force users we have to take a look at the force itself. So...how does it work ?

If force sensitivity is inherited (and most likely it is since Anakin�s children and grandchildren are all force sensitive and we have seen families that spawned serveral force users - and almost every child of a Jedi having some force potential - with Tigris being the only example in which this isn't the case) it must have to do something with the genes of a force user. Now if we consider that force sensitivity is genetically inherited we must assume that those genes that make people force sensitive come from somewhere since those things would simply "plop" up out of nowhere. Since Qui-Gon told us in TPM that every single being in the Galaxy has medi-chlorians in his blood we have to assume that every single being in the Galaxy has at least some force potential.
Now if this is right so far it's most likely save to assume that those "genes" responsible for force potential would get stronger over time since (from an evolutionary point of view) having a better force potential (and thereby stuff like telekinesis, augmented strength and speed, better reflexes) would make you stronger and natural selection would favour those genes. As a proof we have entire species being able to use the force in order to survive (Miraluka seeing through the force, the Koruun using it to survive on Haruun Kal - abilities developed out of necessity)

Since civilisations outclassing the process of natural selection the question if people have a force attunement strong enough to become Jedi Knights is pretty much a question of luck. If there is a force user having children the chance of having a force potential high enough to become a Jedi Knight increases. But the average level of force potential would rise because being favoured by natural selection. The Sith for example developed that "natural selection" (the strongest shall survive in this case the strongest shall rule) only further and because of this it�s clear that the most powerful of them were around in the last generation of the ancient Sith species (Ragnos, Kressh, Sadow) where the people those development started with (Ajunta Pall) didn't seem to be very impressive.

Now that process is the same for the normal Galaxy but not going on as fast as with the Sith (since they aided the process of natural selection with their society). So naturally the general level of force potential would be higher in the PT times than it was in ancient time even if only by a small amount.

But there are things contradicting that idea because the Sith and the Rakatan both grew weaker !

That is actually not right. For the Sith we know that their species (basically the Sith Empire) had reached it's highest point under the rule of Ragnos. The Sith (Nadd, Kun and so on) coming after them would naturally have a lesser force potential (since the Sith species aided the natural selection while other species didn't) or maybe the same force potential but they had less knowledge because their order was totally or nearly totally destroyed on multiple occasions (after the Great Hyperspace War, after the Great Sith War, the Jedi Civil War and the Battle of Ruusan) with most of their knowledge being lost (because either being destroyed / disappearing with individual force users, huge plundering actions � on Korriban, or the simple destruction of knowledge bases like Malachor V). For example the descendants of Freedon Nadd could have had more force potential than Nadd himself but they didn't even come close to have his knowledge.

The Rakatan reached their peak when the constructed the Star Forge. From that point on they started to lose their ability to touch the force but not from generation to generation. It simply disappeared. And that's a phenomenon that is not unique to their race. Vima Da-Boda started losing her ability to use the force slowly after she had turned to the dark side and slew the person responsible for the death of her daughter in anger. So the loss of the ability to touch the force might result from overusing the dark side. That might be aided through two points: The Rakatan seem to have lost that ability nearly instantly (so their power didn't fade away in some generations) and they developed the ability to touch the force again or are close to it in KotoR times (this is getting obvious when you talk to the Rakatan scientist who examines that phenomenon and tells you "the One" is possibly close to be able to use the force).

By the way Vima is an example for a PT Jedi having children who again became Jedi theirselves. Lucas himself stated that he never thought of the PT Jedi being celibate. I'm just mentioning this fact because of the following point: The PT Jedi Order was more centralised than the ancient one and they did train all people from infancy on. Thinking about that it might simply raise the chances for Jedi having children with other Jedi. Or think about the force potential generated on Coruscant with 1,000 generations of Jedi Knights "making love" with non-force-users on that planet and producing children.

So...three things can be established as being facts:
a) Force potential is genetically inherited
b) General level of force potential is raising over time
c) The chance for a child being strong enough with the force is better if one or both of their parents was / were Jedi / Sith.

Force powers
While the ancient force user have shown us great examples of force use (lifting large objects, destroying planets) the abilities of the PT Jedi seem to be more refined and they actually have more of them. Lets have a look at it:

a)
They can survive prolonged exposure to lethal substances (seen when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon resisted the nerve gas in TPM) where Ulic Quel-Droma (considered one of the most powerful ancient Jedi) was forced to give into the dark side to survive being poisoned by Satal Keto.

b)
They can survive long falls (extensively shown by Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC, shown by Mace Windu in AotC and Shatterpoint, by Yoda in ROTS and by Obi-Wan in TPM) and violent physical shocks (grabbing on an airspeeder that flies by shown by Anakin in AotC) without being visibly affected.

c)
They can take a vast amounts of hits before being killed. You can see Jedi taking multiple hits by weapons that can destroy battledroids with a single hit in ROTS. And they can take hits from flamethrowers (Mace Windu AotC) as well as survive rockets and ship lasers fired at them (Obi-Wan vs Jango in AotC). If you consider that Anakin survived lying close to a stream of lava (and Anakin and Obi-Wan both can act in areas with very high temperatures) you might speculate that they can absorb some high amounts of heat using the force without visibly focusing. (Having a look at the Clone War cartoons Obi-Wan is able to block Durge's flame-thrower with his bare hands).

d)
They seem to have much more refined telekinetic abilities than the ancient Jedi. Anoon Bondara tells his Padawan Darsha Assent that it�s much more difficult to lift a single grain of sand than lifting a rock. Now we see Qui-Gon manipulating Watto's chance cube and all kinds of Jedi disabling droids through the force (what seemed like a force push in the movies � the TPM novel states that they disable the droids by destroying circuits and they are able to do this quite effortless - which would be more fitting since the droids aren't damaged from the outside but never get up again "force pushed" once). That leads to the conclusion that their telekinetic powers are more refined than the ones of the ancient Jedi.
Considering the Clone War cartoons they can use telekinetic abilities to greater means (Mace destroying the droids on Dantooine, Yoda tear down the top of a mountain to destroy the droids attacking him on Ilum / lifting those heavy rocks that crashed on Luminara and Bariss Offee � while both of them where able to protect themselves from getting crushed).

e)
Greater force sense. Especially shown by Yoda when he senses the death of the Jedi instantly over thousands of lightyears also shown by Obi-Wan in ANH when he senses the destruction of Alderaan. Same amounts of lives lost and Jedi killed didn't seem to have much effect on the Jedi in the ancient times (destruction of Malachor, destroying sunsystems and planets by the Sith - normally at least Bastilla should have had some terrible had ache when she, Carth and Revan did escape from Taris while the Sith were glassing the planet).
Yoda and Mace where also able to sense Anakin slaying the Tusken Raiders in AotC (so they can sense strong emotions by a single Jedi across the half Galaxy) and Yoda was able to sense the intentions of the Clone Troopers who wanted to kill him.
Compare that to the average Jedi in KotoR times who got killed in huge amount of numbers by "normal" people assassinating them where Obi-Wan is able to sense coming attacks from his "backside" (seen in AotC against the female headhunter).

Nai Fohl

f)
Greater abilities of physical enchantments through the force. That includes force speed (used by Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon in TPM), augmented strength (Yoda in AotC seems to be physically stronger than Anakin and Obi-Wan together in ROTS considering the fact that Dooku could parry them both at once with a single hand where Yoda broke a saberlock with him while he used both hands) and acrobatic movements (Yoda, Maul).

g)
Greater abilities when it comes to blaster deflection and redirection. We saw Yoda in ROTS deflecting fire from 6 clone troopers simultaneously (same can be seen from nearly all people in the CW cartoons). Redirection of blaster fire is used on multiple occasions by Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in TPM, by several Jedi on Geonosis (you can see Mace deflecting 6 blaster bolts from different directions in about a second of time) and by Zett Jucassa and Ki-Adi-Mundi in ROTS. Most impressive example of that technique seems to be Depa Billaba deflecting fire from two different directions using two lightsabers and redirecting seven blaster bolts into a single hole on a moving target.
Vader in ESB (as well as Obi-Wan in the CW cartoons) is deflecting a blaster shot with his hand.
That are things ancient Jedi could only dream off.

h)
Greater abilities of mind-affection. We can see Darsha Assent (a Padawan) affecting the minds of an entire gang of bandits in Shadowhunter and this ability is also used by Obi-Wan (AotC and TPM) to control or distract people.
Andur Sunrider either wasn't able to do something like that or he didn't even think about it when getting attacked by some normal bandits.

And now we reach the first big mistake - the legend of the Jedi losing knowledge and material.
We know that the PT Jedi had knowledge dating back to the ancient times since Bodo Baas (who died during the Jedi Purge) had a holocron that was passed on through generations of Jedi Knights from Vodo Siosk-Baas time on and later was one of the main sources for Luke Skywalker to learn from.
Going by Yaddle's EU profile of starwars.com the Jedi temple had an "impressive collection of holocrons, scrolls and tomes." And if you have a look at the information about the Jedi Temple given on starwars.com you can see the following points:

- the Jedi temple is an ancient building and seeing that it still contains the same rooms as in KotoR times it's very unlikely that it was destroyed.
- the middle tower of the five temple towers "was the most sacred section of the building. Inside were housed the original manuscripts of the founding Jedi." So...they have 25,000 year old manuscripts lying around there and notice that this middle tower being kilometer-meter high was filled with knowledge. So they have quite some stuff in there.
- some people were speculating the temple was destroyed since the Council Room in KotoR 2 appears to be different from the one we have seen in the PT. Basically each of the outer towers had its own Council Room since the Jedi had 4 different Councils: The High Council, the Council of First Knowledge, the Council of Reconciliation, and the Reassignment Council and each of them had its own Council Room. So the Council the Exile had faced in KotoR 2 must not be the High Council.

Feats and abilities
First of all the Jedi in PT times seem to be respected or feared more than the Jedi in ancient times. While we have examples of ancient Jedi simply being murdered or attacked by quite "normal" people (bandits) all people in the PT movies confronted with Jedi immediately panic. The Neimodians in TPM panic when being confronted with TWO Jedi despite the fact that they had an entire army of droids on their ship to stop them. Same can be seen in the Geonosian arena in AOTC where the entire audience seems to panic and immediately flee when the Jedi in the arena ignite their lightsabers.
Just compare the following situations: Andur Sunrider was killed by normal bandits. Mace Windu just had to put his hand on a lightsaber to scare 14 bandits away. Darsha Assent being a Padawan was enough to make an entire street gang flee from her.

And the Jedi in PT times can't get killed by "non-force-users" except in situations were they are horribly outnumbered or overwhelmed with heavy weapons. We see that Jango Fett (called the "deadliest man in the Galaxy" by Mace in Shatterpoint) wasn't able to kill Obi-Wan despite the fact that Boba gave him some assistance and later Mace simply killed him in a direct confrontation.

Both ideas are supported by Lucas himself in the commentary of TPM. When Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon fight through the Trade Federation ship at the beginning of the film Lucas tells us that he wanted the Jedi to be "invincible" and "unstoppable" and they should be recognized like this by the other people appearing in the films. In fact we never saw a Jedi dying to a non-force-user in a "fair" fight except Jango killing Coleman Trebor (this might only have happened because Trebor seemed to focus 100 % on Dooku). The kills archived by other "non-force-users" seem to come from situations of outnumbering (AotC, ROTS), overwhelming Jedi with firepower (AotC. ROTS) or "surprising them" (GG during the Clone Wars).

Also the Jedi seem to have developed some very high infiltration ability since they were able to enter the Area on Geonosis with 200 people without Dooku or the Geonosians having sensed them. The fight on Geonosis did show two things to us:

a) The Jedi are very good in terms of individual skills
b) They are bad when it comes to teamwork.

The entire fight they seem to rely on their individual skills (and considering how many of them survived there must be some very skilled individuals) while not developing any form of teamwork. I think some change had occurred between ancient times and the PT times. In ancient times all "great" actions of force use (on the Jedi�s side) where done by teams. They send hundreds or thousands of individuals to stop Kun or Nadd (In case of defeating Kun they joined their forces to exterminate the entire life on Yavin 4). Some of them joined forces to capture Ulic ("Shield of light" wink

. The only individual action of a single ancient Jedi not reproduced by a single PT force user was cutting somebodies connection to the force. This was done to Ulic by Nomi Sunrider but notice that Ulic was not focusing on his defences but instead was shocked because having killed his own brothers.

In the PT groups of force users seem to fail where individuals can prevail. We saw that 5 Jedi can't defeat Grievous where Mace and Obi-Wan both defeated him in 1vs1 situations. Also Obi-Wan seems to fight much better on his own than teamed up with somebody else (e.g. Anakin). It seems that the PT Jedi have developed greater individual skills but sacrificed most of their abilities to work as teams compared to the ancient time Jedi.
So in terms of versus threads: PT Jedi would maybe be better in "1vs1" or "1vsX" situations where ancient time Jedi might be better in "XvsX" situations.

And just compare them in (quite) similar fights. Let's have a look on the Battle of Deneba in ancient times. You have several thousands of Jedi vs several thousands of Krath War Droids (some Grievous like things with 4 arms carrying 2 meleeweapons and a bow like blaster or blaster rifles) and the Jedi pretty much got slaughtered and even powerful ones (such as Arca Jeth) died.

Now have a look at the Battle of Geonosis (the arena fight). Same situation: 200 Jedi vs thousands droids. Now the droids are equipped with weapons that fire quite fast (normal battle droids 3 bolts per second, Super Battle Droids around 6 bolts and the Droidekas fireing 4 weapons at once with 8 or 12 bolts per second) and some of them even have shields (Droidekas) - and they are aided by Geonosians with some heavy weapons.
Now if you have a look at the "background" action in the arena scenes you can see some Jedi getting outnumbered 5+ on 1 (being surrounded) and still winning quite easily against their opponents. In the entire Battle of Geonosis 192,000 clone troopers and 212 Jedi annihilated more than 1,1 mio Battle Droids.
Still thinking that the PT Jedi are weaker than the ancient ones...ok...next point incoming.

Nai Fohl

Lightsaber fighting
Well...who would be better in terms of lightsaber combat ?
As far as we have seen the PT Jedi are at least better than the ancient ones when it comes to blaster deflection and redirection.

Now let us just have a look on training. The PT Jedi (post Ruusan) are trained from infancy on with lightsabers were the greatest people of ancient times weren't trained from infancy on. Who would be better in terms of fighting ? Somebody who did practice some years with a weapon and used it in some battles or somebody who trained with that weapon for decades and grew up using it ? I guess the latter one when you consider the fact that the styles didn�t change from KotoR times to PT times on.
To add to that point of view. The ancient Jedi practice the very same forms that the PT Jedi do while those forms were refined for more than 4,000 years. I have never seen a example of martial art / fighting style getting worse over time. For natural talents with lightsaber combat we can have a look at Mace Windu: Juyo remained an unfinished art for nearly 4,000 of years until Mace completed it with Vaapad. So...if the ancient Jedi (pre Ruusan) were better than the PT ones why did nobody ever complete Juyo ?

Now people often think that the ancient Jedi had more battle experience and more training against other force users (Sith) than the PT ones. Again wrong. For all we know the Jedi in ancient times nearly had no major conflicts that did go on for several years. The Great Hyperspace War was over in less than one year (and we haven't seen lightsaber action there), same with the Great Sith War.

The Jedi didn't participate in the Mandalorian Wars and the Jedi Civil War (as it's descriped in KotoR 2) more seems like Jedi getting assassinated by Sith assassins / special forces or they tried to convert them. I don't remember a single situation where somebody was talking about a real battle between Jedi and Sith happening in the Jedi Civil War.
Now the PT Jedi did practice against each other (so against other force users) and they did that quite often. The ROTS novel states that Anakin and Obi-Wan did practice lightsaber combat against each other for more than 1,000 hours. We also know that Padawans did fight each other (Shadowhunter) and that even Masters used to spare against each other (Dooku and Yoda did fight Mace before the events of TPM). If that amount of practice time that Obi-Wan and Anakin had is "normal" then some Masters must have 10,000s of hours experience in lightsaber vs lightsaber fights. How would ancient Jedi be able to compare to that ?

Now let's just have a look at the next prejudice or way of thinking. Illustrious has written that there was a "gradual change from front-line soldiers to diplomatic Jedi throughout the ages" which is simply wrong. The Jedi always were diplomats and peacekeepers - the entire order is designed to keep harmony within the Galaxy which doesn't pretty much fit the picture of an army just designed for fighting. Or are we back in the Roman Empire here and the Jedi Order is commanded by Julius Caesar ("in civis pace para bellum" - "if you want peace you have to prepare for war" wink

? That does simply not fit the rules and philosophy of the Jedi Order and those - as far as we know - were installed 5,000+ years BBY thereby counting for all ancient Jedi.

And now for the great "BUT..."

But Yoda � being the strongest of the PT Jedi � couldn't defeat Sidious � the worst of all Sith Lords

True. But let's simply have a look at some facts:

a)
All ancient Sith Lords had technology or some special things to aid their force powers. Sadow had his ship which allowed him to destroy planets and some crystals that boosted his force powers. Same things were later used by Kun (+ Aleema + Ulic). They had amulets, artifacts and so on. Sidious equipped with the same stuff actually is pretty close to the Ancient Sith Lords (have a look at Sidious in Dark Empire having one crystal to boost his force powers). So Sidious might be as strong or even stronger then the ancient Sith Lords in terms of raw power but inferior when it comes to Sith knowledge (especially Alchemy) and things to boost his force powers.

b)
The ROTS novel states that the reason Yoda can't defeat Sidious was that the Sith had changed while the Jedi didn't. In ancient times it was a fight where the light did overcome the darkness. Now in the ROTS novel it is said that the more light you use against the new Sith the deeper their shadow gets. They can't be overwhelmed using the light against them. If we consider the fact that the only weapon the Jedi knew against the Sith was the light, the PT Jedi had less chances against Sidious than the ancient Jedi had against ancient Sith. Now...if you think about this that can lead to some ideas about the PT and the OT:

1)
It can explain why Mace did defeat Sidious after less than a minute of fighting where Yoda wasn't able to do that. It's because of Vaapad. To quote the ROTS novel: "Immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side." So Mace was using the darkness (or let's say some feelings associated with the "Dark Side" wink

against Sidious and won where Yoda, using the light wasn't able to do so.

2)
Now think about that: Why didn't Obi-Wan and Yoda train Luke and Leia from their childhood on ? I think Yoda noticed that the new Sith can only be defeated by somebody that are not like Jedi (pure servants of the light - and have a look at the NJO they aren't "Jedi" any longer) but people that can utilise their "darker feelings" but remain in control over themselves (not fall to the Dark Side). And just have a look how the new Sith (Sidious and Vader) were defeated in the end. Luke had to use his anger to overcome Vader in ROTJ and Vader this finally resulted in Vader killing the Emperor.
Could Luke have "defeated" them being a "regular" Jedi ? Could he have done something with 2 decades of training what Yoda wasn't able to do after 9 centuries if Yoda would have trained the same way all the PT Jedi were trained ? I doubt it.
He would have killed Vader (just because of the necessity) and then the Emperor would have killed him. So leaving Luke "untrained" enough to keep his feelings in higher regard than the (estimated) necessity of his actions was possibly the only way to "win" in the end.

Now...thinking about that points the PT Jedi might have better chances against the ancient Sith Lords than some people give them credit for because they are trained to fight Sith like that and have more training time and more refined abilities than the ancient Jedi.

Especially Yoda would be a real threat for the ancient Sith Lords and not because I'm a Yoda fanboy but because his unique abilities.

We already know that he can absorb and deflect Sith Lightning from point blank range but he has another ability called �Force Light�. Yoda once used that on Dagobah and the effect is that it removes Dark Side manifestations from a nexus point. That means Yoda would be able to effectively destroy any artifact created with Sith magic by removing the Dark Side "component".
Now try to imagine Sith Lords without their force power boosting artifacts trying to fight somebody armed with lightsaber while wielding normal blades (Sith blades that no longer have Sith magic applied on them). Do you think they can win ?

And to throw a last point in here: Lucas himself called the PT era the Golden Age of the Jedi. It's their highest point. Now notice that most of the EU stuff about the ancient Jedi was approved (and sometimes even used) by Lucas before he released the PT and still Lucas calls the PT era the "Golden Age of the Jedi". Since this is Lucas own point of view this might also explain why the Clone War cartoons look exaggerated: Lucas wanted to show the Jedi's "real powers" � something which he couldn't have done in the films and he personally approved episodes which the director thought of being not acceptable (like Mace wasting the droids and the seismic tank on Dantooine).

So if you consider all the points mentioned and consider the Clone War Cartoons as what they are (a piece of Lucas approved EU material) and have a look on Lucas own statement about the PT era (being the Golden Age of the Jedi) - would you still say that the ancient Jedi are superior to the PT Jedi ?

If yes than I hope that I was persistand enough for you Janus. And I hope I humored you greatly, Illustrious.

Nai over.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
So now you have decided that the rest of the EU is uncanon? That doesn't make much sense.

Basic rule of canon policy: Films > EU. If the films say that 12 or 13 years to become a Jedi Knight is impressive (and if Anakin can't do it faster it must be impressive somehow) than people doing it in 4 years during PT times are simply illogical. Period.

I notice you failed to realize that war experience doesn't mean anything. Ever tried to develop you personal fighting style further while facing deadly opponents ?

Of course all other Padawans (except Anakin) must have learned lightsaber combat in otherways than sparing against their masters. Maybe they were beamed to an remote planet where they could fight some mysterious creatures having lightsabers instead of arms or something like that.

Personal skill or result of the Sith amulet he was wearing ? And still Kun wasn't close to the "top of his power".

Did I start the speculation how strong Mandalore was compared to Revan without any proof or just a little hint to speculate about or was that you, huh ?

The one you see above. Go on, proove me wrong, destroy the fabric of the universe - see if I care. :P

Darth Traya

The thing about The PT Jedi being more attuned in the force is rubbish. Look at Malachor V! Thousands of people were killed by the backlash of all those deaths!

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Darth Traya
The thing about The PT Jedi being more attuned in the force is rubbish. Look at Malachor V! Thousands of people were killed by the backlash of all those deaths!

People being in the orbit of that planet - not people that were thousands of lightyears away. Also notice that the destruction of Malachor V didn't seem to have killed people like Malak, Revan himself and the Dark Jedi / Sith since many of them are still alive after the Mandalorian Wars and they were at the orbit of Malachor as far as we know.

Did you ever see ancient Jedi being able to sense the feelings of a single other Jedi through half of the Galaxy (which at least Yoda and maybe Mace too were doing in AotC when Anakin killed the Tusken) ? I didn't...

Darth Traya

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
People being in the orbit of that planet - not people that were thousands of lightyears away. Also notice that the destruction of Malachor V didn't seem to have killed people like Malak, Revan himself and the Dark Jedi / Sith since many of them are still alive after the Mandalorian Wars and they were at the orbit of Malachor as far as we know.

Did you ever see ancient Jedi being able to sense the feelings of a single other Jedi through half of the Galaxy (which at least Yoda and maybe Mace too were doing in AotC when Anakin killed the Tusken) ? I didn't...

Actually, I have a slight theory about that. The Ancient Sith and Jedi seem to be affected when they are in close proximity to a tragic disaster. It seems to have "dispersed" over four thousand years.

jammasterjo

calm the violence brov

Deus Ex

I'd like to point out that the jedi of the PT era have shown force attunement much lower than that... notice that when the jedi felt Anakin's pain they were meditating...

But in combat, they've shown lack of awareness and been taken by surprise. If they were so in tune as you suggest, Nai, Order 66 would have been mostly a failure.

jammasterjo

but deux i would not egree wit neither or neider

Darth Traya

Originally posted by jammasterjo
but deux i would not egree wit neither or neider

Come back when you can post a legible sentence.

jammasterjo

r u tykin the peish out of mei

Deus Ex

Maybe later I'll take an in-depth look into your theory... I read part of it, but I think you're mistaken on a few thigns:

- For one, you claim that the PT jedi have more powers and thus must be better. This fails to address the very idea that there are.... MORE PT jedi era sources than there are older jedi sources! If I have three pieces of art from one time period and fifty from another, is the latter period more artistic? Hell no! This is poor sampling!

- You've established "facts" in your theory. A theory may contain facts, but it cannot lead up TO facts. You are theorizing. All conclusions are just that: theories.

jammasterjo

noit a woise move mei frienzh.

Darth Traya

Originally posted by jammasterjo
noit a woise move mei frienzh.

Are you drunk?

jammasterjo

i had 4,567 units of sexy hot russian vodka

jammasterjo

and i beeeen sippping on jin and juce

Deus Ex

That's it, eh? I'd drink you under the table in a minute.

Deus Ex

A few other things...

CW Cartoon? Gay. I like how you accept that as canon and disagree with other things that aren't nearly as inconsistant with the saga. Nice.

Second, Obi-Wan felt the death of Alderaan. He didn't particularly do much more than furl an eyebrow.

Billions felt the deaths over Malachor. It is reputed to have echoed across the galaxy, affecting all.

Inconsistantcy much?

Deus Ex

Also, the jedi temple depicted in the TOTJ comic and in KOTOR is very different from the one in the PT saga. I don't know where you got the idea that they are the same.

jammasterjo

wrightly said deus janus wot da hell u bin hollering your name dese days and dese nights

Darth Traya

Damn, my refutation did'nt come up!!!!

Deus Ex

Why the quote?

jammasterjo

ewhat was da point *****

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by Deus Ex
I'd like to point out that the jedi of the PT era have shown force attunement much lower than that... notice that when the jedi felt Anakin's pain they were meditating...

Still they felt it.

First off their ability to use the force was clouded by the Dark Side (quote from AotC). Second: Do you want to tell me that ancient Jedi had shown more "awareness" while getting killed by assasins that are seem to just think about Pazaak ? And some of the Jedi were not really surprised but simply horribly outgunned (have a look at Ki-Adi-Mund - he turns around before the first shot is fired and he commanded the clones to follow him so they did nothing unusual meaning he must have sensed something and then he was taken by superior firepower).
And why would you be aware or think of permanent danger commanding troops that practically do not have their own will ?

Sorry...simply wrong expression on my side here.

Oh. Where are the big inconsitant things here ? On that level I can disagree with the entire EU (TOTJ because of training times, same with NJO, JA the Thrawn trilogy not to mention the DE series and so on...)

He had to sit down immediatly and Luke could SEE that something has happened. I call that more than "furl an eyebrow".

Oh yes. Luke Skywalker can't sense the destruction of Alderaan with all the potential he has and in the entirety of the EU nobody without some force practice was able to sense entire sunsystems blown up by Kyp Durron but Malachor could be sensed by "normal people" ?

Where did we see the Jedi temple from the outside in KotoR ? It's different in the TOTJ comics (sorry...I don't have them here at the moment) ? Still movies > comics. And I got that idea from the starwars.com databank (EU article about the Jedi Temple).

Deus Ex

Like I said, Nai, I'll go over your theory with a fine toothed comb and get back to you on it. Not assumig I'll ever change your mind, but I think if you're gonna show one side of the argument, I should show the other side.

And we'll leave the considering of evidence to neutral third parties.

xxxpoppunker182

k so glentract.

first off your points with kuns and kyp fighting doesnt matter. over time(4,000 years) the spirit and kuns powers more than likely deteriorated alot. and with luke being good as some of the knights of the pt ere as of ROTJ i have to disagree still it just doesnt make sense to me someone with like what 3 years maybe of training being better than somneone with i dunno 14 years is better? doubt it. the thing with me sayin i dont think luke concentraited much on lightsabercombat is just an opinion remeber i got nothin to prove it. kyp fough to the death more being none of them used the force though did they. i do think that anikin was better in AOTC then obi wan was in TPM only obiwan was more levelheaded. to say that dooku(being one of the greatest of his time) isnt a good duelist compared to kyp is just ignorant. dooku one of the best with a lightsaber out of 10,000 compared to kyp out of like what how many jedi were around in the njo times? not nearly as many.

now nai

war experience doesnt mean anything? i have to disagree war experience helps out alot. your theory with genetics and the force and how over time with natural selection the jedi would have better attunment to the force well with genetics look at it like this.

anikin we'll say half of his blood is the force and the other half is shmi's blood then him and padme have luke so 1/2 of anikin and 1/2 of padme make up look right? so that means that 1/4 of luke is the force blood 1/4 of luke is shmi's blood 1/4 of luke is padme's dad and 1/4 of luke his padmes mom. so naturally the force is diminished over time. unless they only reproduce with other force sensatives and then still it would weaken a little bit over time.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
k so glentract.

first off your points with kuns and kyp fighting doesnt matter. over time(4,000 years) the spirit and kuns powers more than likely deteriorated alot. and with luke being good as some of the knights of the pt ere as of ROTJ i have to disagree still it just doesnt make sense to me someone with like what 3 years maybe of training being better than somneone with i dunno 14 years is better? doubt it.

Yoda called him a Knight. He had passed the trials. He demonstrated better mastery of the force than many other Knights we have seen who have had more training. War Experience seems to be the key.

Look at it this way. All the Jedi who lived in times of war became powerful v ery quickly(Luke, Kyp, Corran, Nomi, ect.), while peacetime Jedi(with the exception of Jorus) took at minimum 13 years. Luke being a Jedi Knight after 3 years is not uncommon for WAR time Jedi.

And Exar being a weak spirit only contributes more to Kyp being powerful.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
the thing with me sayin i dont think luke concentraited much on lightsabercombat is just an opinion remeber i got nothin to prove it. kyp fough to the death more being none of them used the force though did they.

And I have proof that shows otherwise, so until someone gives superior proof otherwise, what I said is true.

Also, as was seen with the Mandalorians, people don't have to be force sensitive to be a threat to the Jedi. There were Dark Jedi and many of the Imperial Guards were force Adepts, but I can't say if Kyp ever killed one or not.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
i do think that anikin was better in AOTC then obi wan was in TPM only obiwan was more levelheaded. to say that dooku(being one of the greatest of his time) isnt a good duelist compared to kyp is just ignorant. dooku one of the best with a lightsaber out of 10,000 compared to kyp out of like what how many jedi were around in the njo times? not nearly as many.

Did you miss Obi-wan fighting Maul in that last part? Obi-wan matched Maul blade-for-blade, it was only when Maul force pushed Obi-wan that he was defeated(force powers always seem to get the better of him). Being level-headed is part of being a good fighter.

Also, NJO Jedi are on average better than the Old Order Jedi. This is because they were trained in times of war.

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
now nai

war experience doesnt mean anything? i have to disagree war experience helps out alot. your theory with genetics and the force and how over time with natural selection the jedi would have better attunment to the force well with genetics look at it like this.

anikin we'll say half of his blood is the force and the other half is shmi's blood then him and padme have luke so 1/2 of anikin and 1/2 of padme make up look right? so that means that 1/4 of luke is the force blood 1/4 of luke is shmi's blood 1/4 of luke is padme's dad and 1/4 of luke his padmes mom. so naturally the force is diminished over time. unless they only reproduce with other force sensatives and then still it would weaken a little bit over time.

You theory is wrong, blatantly speaking. Do children ever surpass their parents? Yes, they do.

Also, if your theory is true, then after 30 generations, the average Jedi would be like an atom next to a grape. We can see from Yoda to Sidious that this is not true.

Look up Malthus Principles and you will see why it being cut in half everytime simply cannot be true.

Nai Fohl

Originally posted by xxxpoppunker182
war experience doesnt mean anything? i have to disagree war experience helps out alot.

How would war experience help a lot ?
For Jedi only two things matter in a fight: Their force powers and their lightsaber skills and both can't be effectively developed through fighting in a war. In a war you either win (and survive) or lose (die) except a situation where you fight a superior opponent and still survive because another person saves you (like Obi-Wan and Anakin surviving their fight with Dooku in AotC because Yoda joins them).

When you fight somebody you're using things you have learned so far and try to overwhelm him with that. If you can do it, your opponent is most likely weaker than you. Things that can be learned on a battlefield are mostly limited to skills that are not very useful in a duel like keeping an overview over a battle situation, tactics and (things that can be used in a duel) adapt to new situations or improvisation.

Just have a look at Luke for example. He has gone through three years of war in ESB times: He has a hard time force pulling his lightsaber and had a hard time surviving the Wampa. After a few weeks of training with Yoda he has developed FAR greater abilities than through 3 years of combat.
In ROTJ he has improved further but NOT because he has fought some bountyhunters and bandits - because he trained under Obi-Wans spirit (and using Obi-Wans notations) on Tatooine.

And after ROTJ look when he improved greatly: Not in actual combat. It was training from Joruus (Thrawn trilogy), Sidious (DE comics) and his experience in the Jedi Academy that resulted in his NJO powers and not the (relatively few) fights he had.

That's only logical. Where do you learn better: In a relatively peaceful enviroment or on a battlefield. And even if you had 1000 duels against 1000 different persons: Considering the fact that even an duel between two nearly equal opponents (Anakin and Obi-Wan) only lasted for 15 minutes you simply can't learn as much as you can in some sparring fight with a superior opponent.

Another example here would be Kar Vastor. He spend his entire life with fighting a war and still he can't overwhelm Mace Windu in terms of force powers or armed combat.

And to give an example from reality again: The most feared Katana swordfighters in ancient Japan where NOT people that did win many duels but a group of people practicing a fighting art called "ichi no tachi" (the only sword) which goal it was to kill an opponent with one hit. They didn't practice duels much but used training methods like placing serveral thousands of strikes on a trunk each day and jump manouvers. On the battlefield they simply ran at their opponents (some of the masters of that art were able to cross 5.5 metres with 3 steps) and used sheer power (kinetic energy from the approach and physical strength) to strike their opponent down with a single hit (sometimes cutting through the opponents blade).

What can we learn: Training matters and NOT war / fighting experience.

Sorry...but all those estimations are really ignoring reality and the things told in the SW universe.
Just some example (reality): My father is about 1.80 metres tall, my mother about 1.65 metres - using you logic I should be about 1.73 metres tall or at least I shouldn't be able to be taller than my father. In fact I'm about 1.90 metres tall.
Other examples (SW universe): Anakin Solo seems to have a greater force potential than Jacen and Jaina despite the fact that they all have the same parents.
Kyps potential is quite close to that of the Skywalker children and Luke himself - which would be impossible according to your logic.

xxxpoppunker182

k my theory is based on genetics. now you guys saying that according to my theory the force would die out. i'm not saying that at all. the force still chooses and can just end up being very strrong in some it's not like there were only 100 force sensatives and they populated the rest opf the galaxy with force users. you guys are just takeing what i'm saying and responding as if you have no other SW knowledge.

yoda calle dhim a knight ya after he confronted vader as in killing him he neverkilled him he redeemed him also i'm just stating that according to PT era luke would not have been a knight based off the training he had.

Darth_Glentract

Grammar time.

xxxpoppunker182

ya sorry if my last post doesnt make anysense i'll re do it later i was in a hurry last night. and now i have to go to cheerleading practice. but later today i'll re poost

Darth_Glentract

Sorry a response took to long, Nai.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Oh. This is a strange for you. Let's see how many 10,000 character postings I'll need to explain it...

To start a theory about force users we have to take a look at the force itself. So...how does it work ?

If force sensitivity is inherited (and most likely it is since Anakin�s children and grandchildren are all force sensitive and we have seen families that spawned serveral force users - and almost every child of a Jedi having some force potential - with Tigris being the only example in which this isn't the case) it must have to do something with the genes of a force user. Now if we consider that force sensitivity is genetically inherited we must assume that those genes that make people force sensitive come from somewhere since those things would simply "plop" up out of nowhere. Since Qui-Gon told us in TPM that every single being in the Galaxy has medi-chlorians in his blood we have to assume that every single being in the Galaxy has at least some force potential.

This is true, at least the potential part. Luke states in The Joinger King that everyone has Force Potential, which is life energy, but that doesn�t give the ability to tap into the force, which is what is called Force Sensitivity.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now if this is right so far it's most likely save to assume that those "genes" responsible for force potential would get stronger over time since (from an evolutionary point of view) having a better force potential (and thereby stuff like telekinesis, augmented strength and speed, better reflexes) would make you stronger and natural selection would favour those genes. As a proof we have entire species being able to use the force in order to survive (Miraluka seeing through the force, the Koruun using it to survive on Haruun Kal - abilities developed out of necessity)

Those societies were isolated though. Which, is what leads to evolution, doesn�t make me believe this unless it is explained more later. Many Force Sensitive species were wiped out along with the leaders of many Force Sensitive leaders in individual species, removing them from the evolutionary change. This is compounded by the fact that Jedi were not allowed to mary, removing their Force Potential from the chain as well.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Since civilisations outclassing the process of natural selection the question if people have a force attunement strong enough to become Jedi Knights is pretty much a question of luck. If there is a force user having children the chance of having a force potential high enough to become a Jedi Knight increases. But the average level of force potential would rise because being favoured by natural selection. The Sith for example developed that "natural selection" (the strongest shall survive in this case the strongest shall rule) only further and because of this it�s clear that the most powerful of them were around in the last generation of the ancient Sith species (Ragnos, Kressh, Sadow) where the people those development started with (Ajunta Pall) didn't seem to be very impressive.

We�ve only seem Ajunta as a weakened spirit. We have no idea of his true strength. We also don�t know that he was the very first Sith to rebel. He was the first of an individual group that rebelled, but that group wasn�t necessarily the very first group. Also, the chance of a Force User having a child with another Force User is not definite, reducing the probability of a Force Sensitive child.

Also, in nature, natural selection is true, but it often doesn�t apply in Civilized communities. Whenever a solider dies defending a civilian, natural selection was just broken. There are several cases of this in the Star Wars Universe too.

On Ruusan, Lord Hoth was more powerful than Darth Bane, but Bane survived while Hoth did not. Also, on Mustafar, Anakin was more powerful, but Obi-wan survived when Anakin(for all intents and purposes) died. When Kreia let herself die by the Exile�s hand, natural selection once again was broken. When Count Dooku was killed while Anakin lived, natural selection was broken. When Luke lived aboard the Death Star while Vader died, natural selection was broken. Sidious was killed by Anakin, who at this point in his life was actually the weaker of the two. There are so many times in Star Wars, or any civilised community for that matter, that natural selection doesn�t apply, that I don�t believe it can be applied here without any doubt.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Now that process is the same for the normal Galaxy but not going on as fast as with the Sith (since they aided the process of natural selection with their society). So naturally the general level of force potential would be higher in the PT times than it was in ancient time even if only by a small amount.

Not true. The Force Pool would expand overtime, making the average person more force sensitive, but making the upper limit lower for any given person. As Civilization expanded, more and more groups of people were incorporated into this pool.

For example, Anakin�s children(Luke and Leia) have less force potential than him (or it at least appears so). A Force Sentive won�t always create a stronger child.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
But there are things contradicting that idea because the Sith and the Rakatan both grew weaker !

That is actually not right. For the Sith we know that their species (basically the Sith Empire) had reached it's highest point under the rule of Ragnos. The Sith (Nadd, Kun and so on) coming after them would naturally have a lesser force potential (since the Sith species aided the natural selection while other species didn't) or maybe the same force potential but they had less knowledge because their order was totally or nearly totally destroyed on multiple occasions (after the Great Hyperspace War, after the Great Sith War, the Jedi Civil War and the Battle of Ruusan) with most of their knowledge being lost (because either being destroyed / disappearing with individual force users, huge plundering actions � on Korriban, or the simple destruction of knowledge bases like Malachor V). For example the descendants of Freedon Nadd could have had more force potential than Nadd himself but they didn't even come close to have his knowledge.

First, we don�t know for certain that they peaked under Ragnos. All that we have is based on a gameplay experince. As you said about Nadd�s descendent�s, they may have had a greater Force Sensitivity, but they didn�t necessarily have more knowledge. It seems foolish to me to belive that The Sith were nearly wiped out three times in a thousand year time period, but never had the same thing happen in the twenty-one thousand years prior to that.

Next, the Jedi had the same things happen. They were almost purged from the Galaxy on multiple occasions (Great Sith War, Jedi Civil War, New Sith War, etc.).

Even if knowledge wasn�t lost, many force users were killed, reducing the pool of Force User�s that could reproduce and pass on their Sensitivity.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
The Rakatan reached their peak when the constructed the Star Forge. From that point on they started to lose their ability to touch the force but not from generation to generation. It simply disappeared. And that's a phenomenon that is not unique to their race. Vima Da-Boda started losing her ability to use the force slowly after she had turned to the dark side and slew the person responsible for the death of her daughter in anger. So the loss of the ability to touch the force might result from overusing the dark side. That might be aided through two points: The Rakatan seem to have lost that ability nearly instantly (so their power didn't fade away in some generations) and they developed the ability to touch the force again or are close to it in KotoR times (this is getting obvious when you talk to the Rakatan scientist who examines that phenomenon and tells you "the One" is possibly close to be able to use the force).

Like this Sith, I haven�t seen anything to show that was the peak of their Force Capability. It seems more likely that this was the peak of their technology. In the Galatic Empire/Republic, this didn�t apply as Force Users were a non-factor, but the technology was at the peak of known time.

Also, why didn�t this happen to the Sith? They used the Darkside of the Force more than anyone, but never lost their connection.

Vima also seems to be a unique case, if she appiles at all to the Rakata. They lost their Force Sensitivity almost immediately, but she lost hers slowly.

Darth_Glentract

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
By the way Vima is an example for a PT Jedi having children who again became Jedi theirselves. Lucas himself stated that he never thought of the PT Jedi being celibate. I'm just mentioning this fact because of the following point: The PT Jedi Order was more centralised than the ancient one and they did train all people from infancy on. Thinking about that it might simply raise the chances for Jedi having children with other Jedi. Or think about the force potential generated on Coruscant with 1,000 generations of Jedi Knights "making love" with non-force-users on that planet and producing children.

That seems like it would be less effective actually. If a Force User and a non-Force User reproduce, then it is probable that either the child will be non-sensitive, or weaker than the parent to some degree or another. Also, if two Jedi did it, unless they had more than two children, they aren�t going to have much luck in increasing the Force Pool because those two Jedi will then die AND there is a chance that their children will not be able to create two more Jedi for several simple reasons.

1. They become a permanent virgin.
2. They are killed in combat.
3. They reproduce with a non-Force User and the child isn�t Force Sensitive.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
So...three things can be established as being facts:
a) Force potential is genetically inherited
b) General level of force potential is raising over time
c) The chance for a child being strong enough with the force is better if one or both of their parents was / were Jedi / Sith.

a)Seems to be pretty much true.
b)not true
c)true

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Force powers
While the ancient force user have shown us great examples of force use (lifting large objects, destroying planets) the abilities of the PT Jedi seem to be more refined and they actually have more of them. Lets have a look at it:

Lets see...

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
a)
They can survive prolonged exposure to lethal substances (seen when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon resisted the nerve gas in TPM) where Ulic Quel-Droma (considered one of the most powerful ancient Jedi) was forced to give into the dark side to survive being poisoned by Satal Keto.

You are falsely stating that all poisons are made equal. There are different types of poison. Remember that the Nemodians had never fought a Jedi before, so they were unsure as to how much poison they should put into the room. They obviously didn�t use a strong enough poison.

Bane was also poisoned by Kaan. This was a powerful poison created with the use of Sith Alchemy. It is more than likely that the same was true for Ulic when he was poisoned.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
b)
They can survive long falls (extensively shown by Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC, shown by Mace Windu in AotC and Shatterpoint, by Yoda in ROTS and by Obi-Wan in TPM) and violent physical shocks (grabbing on an airspeeder that flies by shown by Anakin in AotC) without being visibly affected.

This proves what exactly? I have seen no evidence that any former Jedi or Sith was limited to a lesser ability to do such things.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
c)
They can take a vast amounts of hits before being killed. You can see Jedi taking multiple hits by weapons that can destroy battledroids with a single hit in ROTS. And they can take hits from flamethrowers (Mace Windu AotC) as well as survive rockets and ship lasers fired at them (Obi-Wan vs Jango in AotC). If you consider that Anakin survived lying close to a stream of lava (and Anakin and Obi-Wan both can act in areas with very high temperatures) you might speculate that they can absorb some high amounts of heat using the force without visibly focusing. (Having a look at the Clone War cartoons Obi-Wan is able to block Durge's flame-thrower with his bare hands).

Once again, nothing is proved against former Sith and Jedi. The ability to absorb large amounts of enegy has been repeatedly demonstrated. Jedi in the Jedi Civil War were able to reflect blaster bolts with their hands, a FAR more concentrated form of enegy than a flame flower of lava.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
d)
They seem to have much more refined telekinetic abilities than the ancient Jedi. Anoon Bondara tells his Padawan Darsha Assent that it�s much more difficult to lift a single grain of sand than lifting a rock. Now we see Qui-Gon manipulating Watto's chance cube and all kinds of Jedi disabling droids through the force (what seemed like a force push in the movies � the TPM novel states that they disable the droids by destroying circuits and they are able to do this quite effortless - which would be more fitting since the droids aren't damaged from the outside but never get up again "force pushed" once). That leads to the conclusion that their telekinetic powers are more refined than the ones of the ancient Jedi.
Considering the Clone War cartoons they can use telekinetic abilities to greater means (Mace destroying the droids on Dantooine, Yoda tear down the top of a mountain to destroy the droids attacking him on Ilum / lifting those heavy rocks that crashed on Luminara and Bariss Offee � while both of them where able to protect themselves from getting crushed).

Saying that moving a grain is