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I think this battle depends on who would win between Vader vs. Greivous. But then again Dooku's team would have much better teamwok.

Not one of your beter threads. Team one with mucho ease.

No, Dooku vs. Sidious is very close and would take a while to decide. And I'm not sure if Vader can beat Greivous. This is actually a very close match.

is ROTS Vader is his suit? if he is, then he's going down because...well, did u see the way he walked?

Before his suit.

Sidious electrocutes GG, Vader toys with Ventress, and then Maul goes down. And Sidious and Anakin kills Dooku.

I think Sids would have too many problems with Dooku to be worrying about GG. Vader and Greivous would go at it for a while, as would Maul and Ventress. This wouldn't be a walk in the park for either side.

Sidious beats Dooku, Vader beats Ventress, Maul beats Grievous. It's as simple as 1, 2, 3.

It would be simple if they fought like that but what about Sids vs. Dooku, Vader vs. Greivous, Maul vs. Ventress?

well, yeah. Vader Force chokes Grievous in 5 seconds and assists Sids to take down dooku. Maul alone would stalemate Ventress. Then Anakin and Sidious aids Maul in taking down Ventress

Well when you put it that way.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
It would be simple if they fought like that but what about Sids vs. Dooku, Vader vs. Greivous, Maul vs. Ventress?
Sidious beats Dooku (again), Maul beats Ventress since she's not even as strong as Grievous and Vader beats Grievous since he's stronger than Maul.


Really you oughta change ROTS Vader to ROTS mechanical Vader.

Damn you're stupid.

Dooku is stronger than Sidious. Ventress is better than Maul. GG could take Vader, or at least stop him for long enough for Ventress to finish Maul and go help him. If Sidious isn't already dead at this point, Ventress and GG go kill him.

Ventress isn't better than Maul and Dooku isn't better than Sids.

Yes they are. Dooku has demonstrated to be better than them. Maul isn't as good as Ventress. She was able to go head to head with ROTS Obi-wan, who would waste Maul.

Ventress only fought weaker versions of Obi-Wan and show me proof Dooku is better than Sidious.

Still, those version would take Maul.

You want proof? Dooku defeated Mace, but Mace defeated Sidious. Don't give me any crap about Sidious faking, take that crap somewhere else.

i also believe dooku would beat palpatine

How about you compare his fight with Mace to his fight with Yoda if thats the best you got thats pathetic. As for Maul he would give any version of Obi-Wan fits.

No, he wouldn't. ROTS Obi-Wan would pwn Maul, and AOTC Obi-Wan could beat him.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
How about you compare his fight with Mace to his fight with Yoda if thats the best you got thats pathetic. As for Maul he would give any version of Obi-Wan fits.

And what have you shown except the ability to be annoying?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Damn you're stupid.

Dooku is stronger than Sidious. Ventress is better than Maul. GG could take Vader, or at least stop him for long enough for Ventress to finish Maul and go help him. If Sidious isn't already dead at this point, Ventress and GG go kill him.

Hey dipshit, Sidious beat Yoda, Yoda was beating Tyranus. That means Sidious could beat Tyranus. There's no way in hell Ventress could beat Maul. What makes you think she could? She had to try hard to beat J'ai Maruk. And Vader was nearly even with Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan took out Grievous so Vader could too.


Yeah, like how Obi-Wan was able to block Dooku's lightning with his saber easily while holding his saber with one hand and Mace was barely able to hold back Sidious's lightning with his saber while using 2 hands.


Got news for you. Ventress never fought ROTS Obi-Wan cause she was dead by then.

Well, apart from the fact that Sidious did fake it Dooku took out a much younger version of Mace.

AOTC's Obi-Wan'd get pwned. Qui-Gon fought much better than AOTC Obi-Wan and Maul beat him. And ROTS would have a good battle on his hands.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Hey dipshit, Sidious beat Yoda, Yoda was beating Tyranus. That means Sidious could beat Tyranus. There's no way in hell Ventress could beat Maul. What makes you think she could? She had to try hard to beat J'ai Maruk. And Vader was nearly even with Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan took out Grievous so Vader could too.

Guess what. Sidious beat Yoda because of a terrain advantage and luck. Yoda is more powerful than Sidious or Dooku. And guess what else, even if you were right, which you aren't, A>B, B>C. That doesn't mean A>C in these types of fights.

Second, you're dumber than I thought. Two reasons Anakin couldn't defeat GG. First, Dooku named everyone who could defeat GG and Anakin wasn't one of them, Obi-wan was. Also, Obi-wan's form gave him a major advantage against GG. Mace says that Obi-wan is the most qualified in the galaxy to kill GG because of his mastery of Soresu, not overall strength.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Yeah, like how Obi-Wan was able to block Dooku's lightning with his saber easily while holding his saber with one hand and Mace was barely able to hold back Sidious's lightning with his saber while using 2 hands.

The more I read, the dumber you get. It is OBVIOUS to every intelligent person(you must be the unintelligent person who missed it) that Dooku put no effort into that attack. He was toying with Obi-wan the entire time. Sidious was pouring everything he had into attacking Mace. Did Dooku's face melt? No, it didn't.

To add to the obviousness that Dooku did not try against Obi-wan in AOTC we saw Dooku pwn Obi-wan with force powers in ROTS.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Got news for you. Ventress never fought ROTS Obi-Wan cause she was dead by then.

I got knews for you that is actually true. Ventress died. But it wasn't from a lightsaber fight. She was extremely wounded and should have died when put onto that shuttle. Turns out that she survived and went to Xagobagh instead where she lived out the rest of her life. In anycase, Obi-wan was near his power when he lost to her. His power didn't suddenly jump in ROTS.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Well, apart from the fact that Sidious did fake it Dooku took out a much younger version of Mace.

Sidious didn't fake it you retard. You are the apex of stupidity. Now you simply deny what is obviously true to an intelligent person. You don't see it because you don't fit the class of an intelligent person. Dooku took out a younger version of Mace, but Dooku got stronger between that fight and ROTS too. You can't prove that he didn't.

Originally posted by darthsith19
AOTC's Obi-Wan'd get pwned. Qui-Gon fought much better than AOTC Obi-Wan and Maul beat him. And ROTS would have a good battle on his hands.

AOTC Obi-wan would lose, but he would give Maul a hard time. Thing is, Asajj would pwn Obi-wan more badly. ROTS Obi-wan would pwn Maul. Easily. Asajj could take Maul, as she has shown by her victories against other, more powerful opponenets.

What?

So?

Proof?

Okay, but there's still no proof Dooku'd beat Sidious. Sidious manipulated Dooku. And I've already given proof he's stronger force-wise. And to think Dooku could go against ROTS Mace, Kit, Agen and Saesee all at once and even survive is absurd.

You too. As a matter of fact, I didn't even think you were dumb till today. And now your going around saying Grievous could beat Anakin lol

Yeah, and Cin could definately beat Anakin

Dude, Obi-Wan pwned GG when they dueled. it lasted what? 30 seconds from the time their sabers first had contact till it was over? Obi-Wan only even had trouble cause he lost his saber.

During the duel, not with the lightning. Why would he? But lets say he is. Yoda easily caught Tyranus's lightning in his hand. When he tried to catch Sidious's he and Sidious had a stalemate.

So your trying to say Palpatine's face turned due to a Force overload?


When did Asajj beat him?

Never said Tyranus didn't get stronger. As a matter of fact, he did. And I created a thread about if Sidious faked it or not here. What were the results? Something like 15 to he faked it andlike 3 to he didn't fake it? But you'll be sorry you said this if when the ROTS DVD comes out Lucas says Sidious did fake it.

Wrong. Padawan Anakin beat Asajj.

Not pwn. But he would win.

As I already said, she had trouble against J'ai Maruk.

This is an interesting fight... I would say Team Duku but i dont know. they're both good teams. MY BRAIN HURTS!!!!

Sids could beat Dooku. If you want to use A>B>C So A>C logic(which I hate) and you will refuse to belive that Sids faked the Windu fight, then we will compare Sids to Windu once again. The only reason he lost was because he entered saber combat immediately with him to quickly eliminate 3 other Jedi masters, if it was one on one and he fought Windu like he fought Yoda, I belive Sids would win.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Guess what. Sidious beat Yoda because of a terrain advantage and luck. Yoda is more powerful than Sidious or Dooku. And guess what else, even if you were right, which you aren't, A>B, B>C. That doesn't mean A>C in these types of fights.

Agreed on this particular statement.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Second, you're dumber than I thought. Two reasons Anakin couldn't defeat GG. First, Dooku named everyone who could defeat GG and Anakin wasn't one of them, Obi-wan was. Also, Obi-wan's form gave him a major advantage against GG. Mace says that Obi-wan is the most qualified in the galaxy to kill GG because of his mastery of Soresu, not overall strength.

'First off', Dooku was insecure about Anakin's growing power. I assume you haven't read LOE. Read it. Just as he is internally terrified of Yoda, and insecure of his power in comparison to that of the old Master, he has doubts about himself when compared to Anakin. He refuses to admit that the boy may someday become more powerful than he. And we know what happens when that occurs. Anakin would defeat Grievous. Perhaps not with the ease of Kenobi, but it would happen.

Secondly, ROTS novelization. How many times are we going to have to argue this? Do you really think that Mace Windu or Yoda would have a harder time against Grievous than Obi-Wan? Um, no.


Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
The more I read, the dumber you get. It is OBVIOUS to every intelligent person(you must be the unintelligent person who missed it) that Dooku put no effort into that attack. He was toying with Obi-wan the entire time. Sidious was pouring everything he had into attacking Mace. Did Dooku's face melt? No, it didn't.

Into the lightning It was enough to stun Anakin, then leave him vulnerable to a Force throw. I highly doubt that it was by any means his most powerful lightning, but it would have had its effect.

And no, he wasn't toying with Obi-Wan in AOTC. Where is this coming from? Watch the fight again, and you will see that it was indeed a full-fledged duel. There were a couple of taunting phrases spoken by the Count, and now he was faking the duel?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
To add to the obviousness that Dooku did not try against Obi-wan in AOTC we saw Dooku pwn Obi-wan with force powers in ROTS.

Because he had an oppurtunity to, yes. But this does nothing for the AOTC case.


Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I got knews for you that is actually true. Ventress died. But it wasn't from a lightsaber fight. She was extremely wounded and should have died when put onto that shuttle. Turns out that she survived and went to Xagobagh instead where she lived out the rest of her life. In anycase, Obi-wan was near his power when he lost to her. His power didn't suddenly jump in ROTS.

She was defeated several months before ROTS at the least, so there was room for improvement. Not to say that he would crush her now, but he would likely win. As would Anakin, who's power seems to grow in leaps and bounds.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sidious didn't fake it you retard. You are the apex of stupidity. Now you simply deny what is obviously true to an intelligent person. You don't see it because you don't fit the class of an intelligent person.

Throughout this post, all I've seen are insults. Honestly. No mature debater needs to stoop to that level, to throwing out insults in every other sentence.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Dooku took out a younger version of Mace, but Dooku got stronger between that fight and ROTS too. You can't prove that he didn't.

And are you saying Mace didn't as well? That the most legendary fighter of the modern Jedi Order didn't grow in strength over a decade or two?

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
AOTC Obi-wan would lose, but he would give Maul a hard time. Thing is, Asajj would pwn Obi-wan more badly. ROTS Obi-wan would pwn Maul. Easily. Asajj could take Maul, as she has shown by her victories against other, more powerful opponenets.

Yep. Obi-Wan as of AOTC would give Maul of a difficult fight, to say the least. And against Kenobi as of ROTS, well, he would fall. Not without a fight, I don't think. But he would lose nonetheless. I wouldn't be completely sure that Asajj would dominate Maul like you say. She could likely beat him, but you make it sound ridiculously easy.

Sorry about the insults. I was pissed last night because of other reasons.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Hey dipshit, Sidious beat Yoda, Yoda was beating Tyranus. That means Sidious could beat Tyranus. There's no way in hell Ventress could beat Maul. What makes you think she could? She had to try hard to beat J'ai Maruk. And Vader was nearly even with Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan took out Grievous so Vader could too.


Yeah, like how Obi-Wan was able to block Dooku's lightning with his saber easily while holding his saber with one hand and Mace was barely able to hold back Sidious's lightning with his saber while using 2 hands.


Got news for you. Ventress never fought ROTS Obi-Wan cause she was dead by then.

Well, apart from the fact that Sidious did fake it Dooku took out a much younger version of Mace.

AOTC's Obi-Wan'd get pwned. Qui-Gon fought much better than AOTC Obi-Wan and Maul beat him. And ROTS would have a good battle on his hands.

you've no right to call glentract dipshit. Anyway, if you say Yoda loses to sidious and yoda beats tyranus, then you're wrong. Why? because Qui-Gon lost to Maul and Maul lost to Obi-Wan, and Obi would lose to qui-gon anyday. And Ventress would indeed defeat Maul. Also, Glentract was right about the part where Sidious won because of their environment. Sometimes in these battles, they're just pure luck.

And more people line up to see what logic Darthsith19 will twist today.

next thing you know, he's gonna say Grievous will beat Sidious

Originally posted by DrDoom101
you've no right to call glentract dipshit. Anyway, if you say Yoda loses to sidious and yoda beats tyranus, then you're wrong. Why? because Qui-Gon lost to Maul and Maul lost to Obi-Wan, and Obi would lose to qui-gon anyday. And Ventress would indeed defeat Maul. Also, Glentract was right about the part where Sidious won because of their environment. Sometimes in these battles, they're just pure luck.
Okay, sorry Glentract, I only called you that because you called me stupid.

Second off, think you Fannus.

Third, I have alkready given other proof on this very page as to why Sidious would beat Maul.

Fourth, we all know you hate me already, Janus.

Lastly Sidious would pwn Grievous. He probably woulnd't even need a saber.

Nah, it's not hate. I just think sometimes you come off as an overbearing know-it-all and when we try to debate with you, you start taking comments and twisting them into something totally different. You couldn't find the truth if it was up your ass and you were wiping with both hands.

To be fair, he's not the only one who does this, Janus.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Okay, sorry Glentract, I only called you that because you called me stupid.

Firstly, thanks DD for standing up for me. Second, DS19, sorry dude. I was pissed off yeasterday as someone stole my bag full of stuff. Peace.

what did they steal?

My backpack. I had twenty bucks in it, two books(I have another copy of one of the books), a CD Player, a few CD's, some homework(they can have that), and Command and Conquer Generals ZH(I was taking it to a friends house. I don't normally carry video games with me, that would be a little strange).

It's now worth a lot though. I can get a new bag for 5 bucks, I mainly use my MP3 instead of my CD Player, I have those disk saved on my PC, and I can get a new copy of Generals for 15 bucks. I lost maybe 50 bucks then(a lot, especially since I only have seven bucks right now). Thins is, I'd prefer to lose 50 bucks then have to pay a thousand on their medical bills from a fight.

this was at school? lol, did u ever get it back?

It was saturday, I wasn't at school. I was outside Jack in the Box.

Jack in the Box rules. We don't have those around here or in MI.

Yeah, Jack in the Box is great.

I like Jack of all Trades, or Jack of Blades.

Jack in the Box is tasty. I dont like Mcdonalds that much anymore. im bored of it.

i had applebee yesterday

Originally posted by darthsith19
Sidious beats Dooku (again), Maul beats Ventress since she's not even as strong as Grievous and Vader beats Grievous since he's stronger than Maul.


Really you oughta change ROTS Vader to ROTS mechanical Vader.


Oh my god.... I won't even go through it again...

Okay, i have heard enough crap!



Sidious did not defeat Yoda. Their fight was on par until Yoda fell from the platform after his own powerful force blast made him do so.

Also, if i recall, Sidious is the one who tried to run from the fight in the first place, yes?


Once again, Dooku may have an overhauling chance to defeat Sidious in Lightsaber combat. All those years Dooku had a plan to overthrow Sidious but it didn't go through. Do not think because Dooku is the apprentice he is weaker. We have been shown that this is false.

Ventress against Maul? Ventress. Maul is good, but he is stupid. He showed us this when he DIED!

Ventress never had strong enough proof to her death. For all we know, she is still alive and assassinated Jedi during the Purge.

But from what i saw from Ventress, it leads me to believe she would tool Maul in mere seconds. Anakin had to give into his anger to defeat her, she did fair with Dooku, and not to mention she ravaged an entire arena filled with Alien Gladiators, in which she slaughtered. Hmm.. Maul's accomplishments? He killed a Jedi Master, and was killed by a Padawan. Wow.

Grievous and Vader? C'mon now. Vader isn't the most powerful body around. Grievous is quite the powerhouse as well. Not to mention he is alot faster and more acrobatical. The four Lightsabers helps him too.

Vader was killed by his son who had three years of Jedi Experience. Grievous has slaughtered numerous Jedi, not to mention Vader's momentum in his Lightsaber scrapage wouldn't keep up with Four Lightsabers swinging at unatural speed.

Hey guys, I'm kind of new to the forums, so if I get some things mixed up, forgive me. Point out any mess-ups, and I'll give it a better shot next time.
Ok, first off- Obi-wan, in tPM, gave into the dark side(anger) a little when Qui-Gon was killed so it gave him an edge by allowing his forming mastery of the Jedi aspect of the force to work with hintings of the dark side of the force to quickly repay Maul. So Maul should be given a little more power in these arguements ( I don't know enough on Ventress to decide who would win though). Next, can someone explain to me why it was so easy for Anakin to off Dooku in RotS, and if it was a matter of power, then why is Anakin not being given enough credit in terms of defeating Grievous? Also, Sorgo, when was Vader killed by Luke and how can Luke be more powerful? He had his mechanical hand chopped off (non-fatal), the Emperor's lightning did him in, and he wasn't going to kill his son b/c he was already being freed -next post->

from the grip of the dark side (i.e.- The Emperor questioned his intentions before Vader greeted Luke on Endor, *Luke couldn't handle Palpatine's F. Lightning though Vader took it long enough to kill Palpatine, yet he couldn't overcome Luke during the Lightsaber battle?) Also, not to further my arguement against Sorgo, anyone have anything to say about Vader's submission on that bridge, before Luke off'd his hand, in terms of a sense of parental sacrifice- more specifically, you knew Vader was powerful, but but he eventually chose not to fight because he received a developing love for his son and couldn't harm him at any cost. Luke in my opinion was blind at that point by the prophesy of Yoda, the developing fight, and his paternal trait of blinding anger to see his father giving in for his own good- that disappointed me about Luke. Anyway, I got way off topic but to conclude, Sidious is powerful yes, but I think politics and mind-control is his game, not duels- so Dooku should take him.

wow, impressive post from a junior member.

Yes, impressive.


Anakin offed Dooku because Dooku threw the fight. Obi-wan is stronger than Anakin, but he couldn't stand against Dooku for twenty seconds.

I think the dual assumptions that A) Dooku threw the "Invisible Hand" fight and B) Sidious threw his fight against Windu are on par. The logical reasoning to throwing these crucial duels is always, "Turn Anakin Skywalker to the Dark Side."

Then again, the ROTS novelization as I remember it reads that Dooku was actually giving his all towards the end of his fight. I've forgotten what it read about Palpatine's.

Anyway, in my humble opinion, Darth Sidious and Yoda are about equal in force strength and perhaps dueling. Yes, Sidious tried to leave, and that's most likely because he knew Yoda had a chance of beating him. However, when he knew he could not leave, he fought Yoda to a stalemate, something Dooku could never do. (Admittedly I like Sidious because he humbled Yoda. I almost cheered when he knocked the "little green freak" on his ass with lightning. He had it coming. )

I think people give Grievous far too much credit, and admittedly I probably think so because I've not seen the Clone Wars cartoon. Still, it stands to reason that someone trained in the Dark Side would have no qualms about using the force offensively to cripple or kill Grievous, who would have no defense against it if it were targeted towards his gutsack.

I can't comment on Ventress.

The lightsaber fight only lasted a few minutes before they were first seperated, so you cant say he is perhaps better than yoda in terms of lightsaber combat. Yoda did everything better than Sidious had in that fight. He caught the lightning and blasted it back, threw pods back at sidious. Broke every saber-lock, so really yoda had the upperhand during a few moments in the fight, some of them were just defensive because I mean what else could the little guy do?
The area they fought was 98% in Sids favor. If your going to ask for proof, I sadly cannot prove any of it, but I could Infer from the fight that it was totally unbalanced.

Actually, the idea of Dooku throwing the fight on the INvisible Hand is implied in the script of the movie, which supercedes the novelisation (Which is created by an independant author who does his own take on the movie events as he sees fit.)

As for Sidious, I'm undecided myself, but www.starwars.com says in either Mace's or Sidious' profile that Mace clearly won, so if you want to go with what we have as opposed to what we have not, this is what we have.

Dooku threw the fight.

Sidious lost.

There. We're settled.

You have great points, but do we not also say that Kenobi was a better fighter by using the terrain to his advantage in the Mustafar duel? I said Sidious was about equal, not better. Really, the fight could have gone either way.

I contest that Yoda threw lightning back. The stalemate that ended up deciding the fight was when both lightsabers were not being used (not sure if they were gone or deactivated) and Sidious was blasting Yoda with lightning. Both fighters were using their Force powers to the maximum, Sidious to attack and Yoda to defend. They ended up getting pushed away from each other in the ensuing shockwave, and Sidious luckily (like Kenobi) wound up with the high ground.



I'd like to see the part of the script where it reads that Dooku threw the fight. Don't mistake me, I'll definitely believe it when and if I see it. Where would I obtain a copy?

I found mine from someone here. I think Nai Fohl maybe. You can find it if you're a good search engine wizard, and also on fileshare programs. In any case, a scene was edited from the movie (Perhaps to add to ambiguity... GL loves for people to think outside of the box) where Palpatine tells Anakin to kill Dooku. Dooku looks to the chancellor and exclaims "But you promised me amnesty!".

This heavily implies that Dooku was to lose the fight and live (Although I think Dooku did underestimate Anakin's cleverness and his anger.) Dooku was taunting Anakin heavily (Almost a direct mirror of Vader versus Luke in ROTJ) telling him to use his anger and wounding Obi-Wan, trying to make Anakin hate him even more. Notice that when Anakin and Dooku break the saberlock where Dooku is taunting him, he starts forcefully slamming into Dooku and evening pushing him back. I don't neccessarily believe Dooku was outclassed and without a way out at this time, but it's against his orders. And the move Anakin did to cut off his hands was legit and unexpected, too.

And Obi-Wan is considered a good fighter because he makes advantages where there are none and defeats people decisively who are better than himself. Sidious did not defeat Yoda decisively and was the benefactor of a good environment and fate. In the last second when Yoda absorbs and then reflects his lightning at point blank range, Sidious knew he was outclassed. But the resulting explosion was in his favor, since he could find a handhold and Yoda could not. Now both are saberless and Sidious has the high ground. It'd be suicide for Yoda to continue.

Weird the script I just read said nothing about Dooku throwing the fight.

Of course from reading that script it also sounded like the Mace vs. Sidious fight was pretty even.

Simus, it's in there. I pointed it out a few months ago. I spent three pages illustrating points as to why the Dooku-Anakin fight was thrown. I am not gonna go over that again. It should be pretty evident. Hell, it was evident to my buddy who watched the movie with me and he isn't even a Star Wars buff.

most of us know why the dooku-anakin battle was thrown.

Well it only talks about an intense lightsaber fight, that is all it said it didn't even have Dooku's line about ammnesty. Heres the site if you don't believe me.


http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html

Sidious beat Yoda.

Mace beat Sidious.

Dooku threw the fight against Anakin.

These are fact.

The last two are not fact unless you have talked to Lucas yourself.

mace beats sidious. that's a fact. Dooku beat Anakin, not a fact

That script is different. Specifically... it's shorter than what I have seen.

It said that it was written by George Lucas. But from everything I have seen it looks as if Sidious and Mace are pretty close in saber skill. As for Anakin vs. Dooku the only place that actually states Dooku threw the fight is the ROTS novel which is pretty much fan fiction. And after just reading Dooku's databank file on starwars.com it states that he got overconfident and was outmanuvered, never saying anything about throwing the fight.

I've seen the line. I'm sure of it. I'm at work, so I don't have access to it. I'll get back to you on this one.

I'll be waiting.

Phew. Don't hold your breath. I don't get home for another three hours.

Seriously though... take a look at the poor soul...

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4740/dookuwtf4iq.jpg

I've seen poorer souls.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Firstly, thanks DD for standing up for me. Second, DS19, sorry dude. I was pissed off yeasterday as someone stole my bag full of stuff. Peace.
yeah, peace. Shit, yu lost a lot of stuff! Hope you can get it back. Did a bunch of people jump you are what?

Sorgo, I don't feel like dealing with your bs for like the hundredth time because no matter what I say, even if it's something Janus would say is reasonable, you wouldn't listen to me.

Jnaus, yes, the stwars.com adtabank does make it seem that Mace won fair and square, but also it contridicts what Star Wars Insider as well as Ian McDirmand himself say about why Palpatine's face became deformed. I heard shortly after ROTS came out that Lucas himself wasn't even sure what to say. I've heard he will reveal the answer in the ROTS DVD. When asked if Palpatine threw the duel, he said something like this: "I'm not sure anymore. If you'd asked me when I originally filmed the scene I'd be sure on the answer as Anakin was with palpatine when Mace came and watched the whole thing. But now I;m not sure."

I heard that too, but he changed his original plans to accomodate SLJ, too, if you recall. Originally Sidious was supposed to pwn the hell out of Mace, but SLJ (Who took a low salary just so he could be afforded) requested that MAce go out like a punk.

And definately, SW.com is a shaky source. I wish it weren't, but the site isn't properly maintained and updated... and it's pretty skimpy with what it does have in those profiles.

Oh yeah, I remember. Sidious completely and utterly pwned both Mace and Yoda in the older scripts.

Yeah, and originally Dooku was supposed to be weaker than Anakin. Hell, in AOTC he was supposed to be some changling type who was more commander than a real swordsman.

Well, considering they have someone like Lee, they'd hardly make him a sucky duelist in the final version. He's got that gentlemanly class and elegance possessed long ago by fencers. In short; he pwns too much to suck.

Agreed.

I'm a new member here... But since when does Count Dooku beat Palpatine? Wasn't Dooku his apprentice?

Since there is no real convincing evidence that Sidious was better either in Force feats nor in lightsaber combat, though really your mileage may vary.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Since there is no real convincing evidence that Sidious was better either in Force feats nor in lightsaber combat, though really your mileage may vary.

Wow. I think I've entered the twilight zone.

I've looked around this thread. And I'm an avid reader of the Star Wars books. And Sidious was feared by Dooku, according to the book called Dark Rendezvous. And I don't mean a little fear. He was terrified of him. So terrified that he didn't even dare go back to the arms of someone who I think is at least Sidious's equal. And that's Yoda.

Good point, but the problem with that (Besides it being an author's rendition of Dooku's feelings) is that there's nothing to substantiate the fear. It just exists. ANd that doesn't imply neccessarily better battle prowess. As for Force knowledge, Dooku was older than Sidious and had an extended background as a jedi master. ONly in the dark side could SIdious have been superior, and really, I don't see much.

I've also looked around and saw that Grievous is considered to be a very inept duelist. But in Labyrinth of Evil, Count Dooku muses that even he was very hard-pressed to defeat Grievous. So if Dooku had problems facing down General Grievous (whom Obi-Wan bested with evident ease), not to mention that he was killed by Anakin (who is also ridiculed as a duelist, and who was defeated by Obi-Wan), wouldn't it be safe to assume that he could not match Palpatine?

Sorry if I'm repeating old arguments or something. I'm new around here.

I'm sorry, but I just can't believe Dooku is superior to Palpatine. Also considering how it was stated that Palpatine 'was' the master of the Dark Side, Yoda's opposite. And the site proclaims that Palpatine is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times. According to his databank profile, he is also the 'paragon of the Dark Side'.

This is likely the case... But keep in mind that while his mastery of the dark side is probably superior, his duelling skills aren't. And I'd say that both show similar feats of force mastery.

And tack up the fact that Dooku was a sith for what? Almost thirteen years compared to Sidious who was a sith for much longer. Perhaps there was something indeed that cowed Dooku... But we don't know exactly what.

In any case, it's a very close fight.

Originally posted by Escape81
I've also looked around and saw that Grievous is considered to be a very inept duelist. But in Labyrinth of Evil, Count Dooku muses that even he was very hard-pressed to defeat Grievous. So if Dooku had problems facing down General Grievous (whom Obi-Wan bested with evident ease), not to mention that he was killed by Anakin (who is also ridiculed as a duelist, and who was defeated by Obi-Wan), wouldn't it be safe to assume that he could not match Palpatine?

Sorry if I'm repeating old arguments or something. I'm new around here.

Very impressive for a junior member, but not quite on target.


I don't see how Dooku was hard pressed to defeat GG. In a pure saber duel, perhaps, but if Dooku called upon his impressive force arsenal, GG would be crushed against him.

Obi-wan defeated GG, but that was a long and drawn out fight. Look at how Dooku wasted Obi-wan earlier in the movie. It took about 18 seconds. Dooku is FAR superior to Obi-wan.

Now, Dooku only lost to Anakin because he threw the fight. If Dooku had been trying against Obi-wan and Anakin, both would have fallen in less than a minute.


Now, we know Dooku defeated Mace once. We know that Mace defeated Sidious. That gives Dooku support, but doesn't for sure mean that Dooku would defeat Sidious becuase in matches like this A>B, B>C doesn't always mean A>C.

Dooku only followed Sidious because Sidious had the political genius and positioning, not because Sidious was a more powerful fighter.

And, I'm tired of typing, so I'll post more on this later.

palpatine is slow and doesn't have great lightsaber skills. Escape81, compare Dooku in AOTC and ROTS against Palp in that duel against mace.

Palpatine was fighting Mace, who is slower, but uses more power in each swing. Dooku was fighting Yoda who relies on speed to make up for a lack of physical power. I agree with what you are going for, but this argument doesn't work well here.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Very impressive for a junior member, but not quite on target.


I don't see how Dooku was hard pressed to defeat GG. In a pure saber duel, perhaps, but if Dooku called upon his impressive force arsenal, GG would be crushed against him.

Obi-wan defeated GG, but that was a long and drawn out fight. Look at how Dooku wasted Obi-wan earlier in the movie. It took about 18 seconds. Dooku is FAR superior to Obi-wan.

Now, Dooku only lost to Anakin because he threw the fight. If Dooku had been trying against Obi-wan and Anakin, both would have fallen in less than a minute.


Now, we know Dooku defeated Mace once. We know that Mace defeated Sidious. That gives Dooku support, but doesn't for sure mean that Dooku would defeat Sidious becuase in matches like this A>B, B>C doesn't always mean A>C.

Dooku only followed Sidious because Sidious had the political genius and positioning, not because Sidious was a more powerful fighter.

And, I'm tired of typing, so I'll post more on this later.
Here's an example for Glentract's A>B>C scale
A= Qu-Gon
B= AOTC Obi-Wan
C= Darth Maul

A>B true. Qui-Gon is obi's master and knows his weak points
B>C true TPM Obi stalemated Maul for a while, AOTC has a chance
A>C false. Qui-Gon lost to Maul

Well, I have noticed that there is an inconsistency between the books and the movies. But it 'did' state that Dooku was very hard-pressed to defeat Grievous, even though the movies depicted him as both a coward and reckless. And then you have the Clone Wars cartoons which make him appear to be very formidable. But I think the books are recognized as cannon as long as they do not conflict with the stories.

Also, Dooku was a political genius in his own right. While it is evident that he was no where near the mastermind that Palpatine was, he was a clever man, and a rational one at that. So it would appear that Dooku's fear of Palpatine was not irrational or without reason. Dooku, who did not even fear Windu, Obi-Wan, or Anakin, generally feared Palpatine, who many consider to be his inferior. But Deus Ex is right. We do not, nor is it likely that we will 'ever', know why Dooku feared Palpatine the way he did.

As for the Mace Windu issue. I have reviewed Palpatine's respective duels with Yoda and Mace numerous times. There is a clear difference between them. The website declares that Palpatine was outmaneuvered. So I doubt this is a lie. However, Palpatine went into the duel and killed three Jedi Masters in a few seconds. And we all know that Palpatine's greatest weakness, as cited by Luke in Return of the Jedi, is his over confidence. Having duped the Council and the Jedi, as well as killing Mace's entourage with relative ease, I assume he went into the duel with Mace a trace over-confident. He went on the offensive. Notice that he didn't use his immense Force powers (which are probably vastly superior to Mace's own). He used his saber skills. While I do not consider Palpatine a pathetic duelist, it is obvious that the Sith Lord's main source of offense and power is his Force powers. Palpatine also took his time. Now. It is utterly conveniant how Anakin mysteriously walked in on the duel, just a second after Palpatine was disarmed.

Perhaps Palpatine did indeed loose to Mace, in the duel. But it is also obvious that he took that loss and made it work where he had Anakin in the position where it would lead him further down the Dark Side. I do not know if Mace would've killed Palpatine without Anakin's interference, but it seems likely.

However. Had Palpatine battled Mace as he did with Yoda, I have no doubt that the Koruun master would be dead. Palpatine's Force powers are immensely developed for a Force-user, and his battle with Yoda showed that he recognized 'the little green freak' as the greater danger. His confidence was probably bulstered after his duel with Mace, hence his reluctance to battle someone with Yoda's attunement and wisdom.

But this is just my theory.

Wow.

Very good accessment. I applaud the thought you've put into it. Bravo!

oh man, im starting to like this guy.

Very impressive.

Originally posted by Escape81
Well, I have noticed that there is an inconsistency between the books and the movies. But it 'did' state that Dooku was very hard-pressed to defeat Grievous, even though the movies depicted him as both a coward and reckless. And then you have the Clone Wars cartoons which make him appear to be very formidable. But I think the books are recognized as cannon as long as they do not conflict with the stories.

The Cartoons you can throw out. They conflict with the movies even though they are GL approved, the movies outrank them. If the Cartoon were true, Mace could have killed every Droid on Geonosis by himself.

Yes, the books are canon.

Originally posted by Escape81
Also, Dooku was a political genius in his own right. While it is evident that he was no where near the mastermind that Palpatine was, he was a clever man, and a rational one at that. So it would appear that Dooku's fear of Palpatine was not irrational or without reason. Dooku, who did not even fear Windu, Obi-Wan, or Anakin, generally feared Palpatine, who many consider to be his inferior. But Deus Ex is right. We do not, nor is it likely that we will 'ever', know why Dooku feared Palpatine the way he did.

It was stated somewhere that Sidious did have something over Dooku that could kill him or something like that. I don't remember where though.

Originally posted by Escape81
As for the Mace Windu issue. I have reviewed Palpatine's respective duels with Yoda and Mace numerous times. There is a clear difference between them. The website declares that Palpatine was outmaneuvered. So I doubt this is a lie. However, Palpatine went into the duel and killed three Jedi Masters in a few seconds. And we all know that Palpatine's greatest weakness, as cited by Luke in Return of the Jedi, is his over confidence. Having duped the Council and the Jedi, as well as killing Mace's entourage with relative ease, I assume he went into the duel with Mace a trace over-confident. He went on the offensive. Notice that he didn't use his immense Force powers (which are probably vastly superior to Mace's own). He used his saber skills. While I do not consider Palpatine a pathetic duelist, it is obvious that the Sith Lord's main source of offense and power is his Force powers. Palpatine also took his time. Now. It is utterly conveniant how Anakin mysteriously walked in on the duel, just a second after Palpatine was disarmed.

You're nearly right. Palpatine might have defeat Mace in the right situation. In the end of the fight though, Sidious was hitting Mace with everything he had and Mace still pushed through it.

Originally posted by Escape81
Perhaps Palpatine did indeed loose to Mace, in the duel. But it is also obvious that he took that loss and made it work where he had Anakin in the position where it would lead him further down the Dark Side. I do not know if Mace would've killed Palpatine without Anakin's interference, but it seems likely.

Mace would have killed Sidious. Sidious didn't fake the fight.

However. Had Palpatine battled Mace as he did with Yoda, I have no doubt that the Koruun master would be dead. Palpatine's Force powers are immensely developed for a Force-user, and his battle with Yoda showed that he recognized 'the little green freak' as the greater danger. His confidence was probably bulstered after his duel with Mace, hence his reluctance to battle someone with Yoda's attunement and wisdom.

You might be right. Still, Sidious hasn't demonstrated the ability to use extensive force powers while using a lightsaber. Mace was able to overcome Sidious' full Force Lightning attack and was FAR less winded than Sidious.

Originally posted by Escape81
But this is just my theory.

It's a good start.

I think one thing that Sidious had over DOoku that was mentioned in LOE included the murder of Master Sio Dyas (Which was like Dooku's initiation) and the points in Dark Rendezvous and such were Dooku felt he had gone too far towards the dark side to ever return... I think Sidious was blackmailing him, possibly in addition to physical pressure or something.

Perhaps. But also, by the time of Dark Rendezvous, Dooku was an enemy of the Republic and leader of the Separatists. Blackmail would not have done him any good. He was already a wanted man, and would likely be put to death anyway, had he been captured.

So while that might have been an original form of incentive that Palpatine had over Dooku, I doubt it was the true thing that the Count feared. But again. We'll never know.

monkey

I can't say death would have been Dooku's crime. For one, he was a very respected figure in many circles, and was a noble of a vastly powerful and wealthy planet. Also, it would undermine the moral standing of any institution that put him to death. I think his sentence would have been closer to life imprisonment or perhaps exile.

Then perhaps blackmail would be one of the greater things. But perhaps Dooku didn't know enough about Palpatine. Perhaps, in truth, he did not see Palpatine duel or fight. To be quite honest, he does try to 'act' far stronger than he is. Palpatine is powerful. But in the Phantom Menace, especially, he acted with arrogance. But he was in control. And knowing that all of his lackeys feared him, I suppose he emitted an aura of total power and skill. After all of his exceptional accomplishments, I'd say so myself. But then again, we've seen Palpatine have his weak moments.

But really... knowing that he is NOT all-powerful and yet makes himself damn near look it, makes him all the greater villain.

I got to go. Goodnight.

night

See ya later.

Peace then.

And I think you're right; Sidious was very keen on projecting an aura of confidence and power and he was selective in showing his power.

was the SW versus forums used to be more crowded?

night, all. im leaving

Yeah, until like 10 guys got banned. And Atlant80 left.

Most of the regulars also show up less often.

And Nefarus left.

And JackDaniels left.

And ArthasKnight left.

And Dipsit left(for the most part).

And Luke is Better left.


night

You're right. A lot of people have come and gone. This place is so empty without the crew.

Illustrious, Fishy, and Nai had been almost completly gone.

And where'd Avis go. I was just starting to get to like him when he left.

I couldn't say.

You know, the reason this place is so dead though is because of the lack of things to talk about. I mean, we're coming to a standstill for knowledge of SW... there's only so many matches we can throw together and properly judge. Personally, I was thrilled with Escape81's new outlook on the situations. We haven't had that since... hell, July.

True. The Risk Thread looked hopefull in the start.

I'll be honest; I got tired of setting up scenarios and then debating them... It's a lot of work put into one fight. And while that seems great for the sake of longevity, it didn't make for a fun game overall.

And the DVT? Phew... last battle was gonna be so vicious I decided against it. What was it? Yoda versus Kun or Revan?

Yeah. What where my losses anyway when I tried to take that one planet(I only tried against one before quitting)?


I've got a test I need to study for. Goodnight.

I don't recall. And I'm heading out too. Rather be playing through RE 4 again then posting once ever fifteen minutes. meh.

Originally posted by darthsith19
yeah, peace. Shit, yu lost a lot of stuff! Hope you can get it back. Did a bunch of people jump you are what?

Sorgo, I don't feel like dealing with your bs for like the hundredth time because no matter what I say, even if it's something Janus would say is reasonable, you wouldn't listen to me.

Jnaus, yes, the stwars.com adtabank does make it seem that Mace won fair and square, but also it contridicts what Star Wars Insider as well as Ian McDirmand himself say about why Palpatine's face became deformed. I heard shortly after ROTS came out that Lucas himself wasn't even sure what to say. I've heard he will reveal the answer in the ROTS DVD. When asked if Palpatine threw the duel, he said something like this: "I'm not sure anymore. If you'd asked me when I originally filmed the scene I'd be sure on the answer as Anakin was with palpatine when Mace came and watched the whole thing. But now I;m not sure."


I don't need to listen to your semantics. They got ridiculous. I remember when we had the HUGE arguement about how you thought Mace threw the fight and how I thought Palpatine kicked Mace's ass fair and square. Well, we now have enough venerable proof that Mace won, and you got in a hissy fit when me and you argued about it.

You even said Sidious could feel Anakin entering the Office.


Knee-grow please!

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Peace then.

And I think you're right; Sidious was very keen on projecting an aura of confidence and power and he was selective in showing his power.

In all actuality, it is very possible that Count Dooku never did see the true power Sidious possessed. Imagine what it must look like to him. Sidious sought him out. He, an accomplished Jedi Knight and powerful Force-user. Then, imagine Dooku's surprise when a confirmed Sith Lord exists, in the very planet that the Jedi Temple inhabit. That may be what caused a lot of the fear. While Sidious is indeed no Marka Ragnos or Exar Kun, it cannot be denied that he has an extreme mastery over what considerable Force power he does possess. That Sidious could shield himself, even in the presence of Yoda and Mace, and then to discover that he essentially 'controlled' the Republic and the Jedi themselves. And then to see that Sidious had carefully engineered all of his plans, to his eventual takeover of the Republic. While Dooku does not fear easily, it makes quite sense why he would be intimidated by Sidious. That the Dark Lord had successfully hidden himself from the esteemed Jedi Council, and actually secured a position of high authority in the Senate under their noses, to Dooku, these things must ring a great deal of power in the Count's eyes.

Combine that with Sidious's ability to, as you have said, project an aura of control and power, I see no reason why Dooku didn't fear Sidious. It all makes sense, in a sort of way.

your theory is like mine, that he had to quickly enter saber combat in order to take out 3 jedi masters, if it was 1 on 1 sids would win.

No. I disagree. Palpatine slayed the Jedi Masters with relative ease. It was not much of a burden or an effort on his part. He simply outclassed them with a blade. Now it is blatantly obvious that Windu was above the Masters that Palpatine killed. He was second only to Master Yoda, also.

Either way, Palpatine would not have had an easy fight - even if he did use the Force. But considering how we really haven't 'seen' Mace use the Force canonically, and to a considerable degree, it is likely because that he relies more on his excellent swordsmanship, as Dooku did. Now I am not saying Mace was a pushover in the Force department, either. But I doubt his were as evolved or as powerful as Palpatine's own.

Anyways. Mace would still have been a very dangerous opponent. His skills are not beneath Palpatine's own, and we have seen that he is capable of reflecting Palpatine's lightning with the saber (though he had required monumentous effort). But take the blade away, and as with Yoda, he wouldn't have won.

If Palpatine had used the Force, the battle would still be good. But he would have won - fairly - in the end.

Amen. See this guy gets it. I have been saying things like this for a long time (only, to your credit, Escape81, not as elaborately). What I meant was that if he had battled four Jedi masters with the force, it would be far more difficult then to take out three with his saber and try to outclass Mace.

Originally posted by Escape81
In all actuality, it is very possible that Count Dooku never did see the true power Sidious possessed. Imagine what it must look like to him. Sidious sought him out. He, an accomplished Jedi Knight and powerful Force-user. Then, imagine Dooku's surprise when a confirmed Sith Lord exists, in the very planet that the Jedi Temple inhabit. That may be what caused a lot of the fear. While Sidious is indeed no Marka Ragnos or Exar Kun, it cannot be denied that he has an extreme mastery over what considerable Force power he does possess. That Sidious could shield himself, even in the presence of Yoda and Mace, and then to discover that he essentially 'controlled' the Republic and the Jedi themselves. And then to see that Sidious had carefully engineered all of his plans, to his eventual takeover of the Republic. While Dooku does not fear easily, it makes quite sense why he would be intimidated by Sidious. That the Dark Lord had successfully hidden himself from the esteemed Jedi Council, and actually secured a position of high authority in the Senate under their noses, to Dooku, these things must ring a great deal of power in the Count's eyes.

Combine that with Sidious's ability to, as you have said, project an aura of control and power, I see no reason why Dooku didn't fear Sidious. It all makes sense, in a sort of way.



Apparently, the Count had a plan for a number of years to overthrow Sidious, which is something he tried on the Invisible Hand. He switched his Lightsaber form, went easy on Anakin, tapped into Anakin's Raw power and got ravaged. Dooku made a fatal mistake. He underestimated Anakin and switched his combat form. He could have easily slaughtered Anakin, but then again, there wouldn't be an OT if that happened, yes?

Originally posted by darthsith19
And I created a thread about if Sidious faked it or not here. What were the results? Something like 15 to he faked it andlike 3 to he didn't fake it? But you'll be sorry you said this if when the ROTS DVD comes out Lucas says Sidious did fake it.


Since I have seen this for the first time now: You're talking about the thread were you got pretty much outclassed with your "Sidious threw the fight" stuff ?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f38/t367507.html

Oh yes...all that proof for Sidious faking it...

Having a look at the setup either of the Sith Team (Sidious, Vader, Maul) can beat Grievous simply using offensive force powers instead of fighting him in lightsaber to lightsaber combat.

ROTS Vader (pre suit) can defeat Ventress as seen in the clone wars cartoons.

Dooku might be able to beat Sidious which doesn't really matter because GG will die first here in any case leaving Maul, Anakin and Sidious vs Ventress and Dooku and I doubt Ventress and Dooku would be able to take the trio.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Since I have seen this for the first time now: You're talking about the thread were you got pretty much outclassed with your "Sidious threw the fight" stuff ?

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f38/t367507.html

Oh yes...all that proof for Sidious faking it...

Having a look at the setup either of the Sith Team (Sidious, Vader, Maul) can beat Grievous simply using offensive force powers instead of fighting him in lightsaber to lightsaber combat.

ROTS Vader (pre suit) can defeat Ventress as seen in the clone wars cartoons.

Dooku might be able to beat Sidious which doesn't really matter because GG will die first here in any case leaving Maul, Anakin and Sidious vs Ventress and Dooku and I doubt Ventress and Dooku would be able to take the trio.


A long time ago in a Grievous VS Maul thread, we got in a huge arguement that must have lasted six to seven pages about us arguing whether Sidious threw the fight or not. And traditionally, He lost because I later found out he made shit up.

Well in the origional script Sids threw the fight but Sammy L. Jackster wanted to go out like a badass.

Damn. Darthsith19 got owned on that thread.

Wow, in that Q and A on SW.com woth Ian MicDiarmid he said Sidious was the fastest lightsaber fighter in the movies. Sort of arrogant in a way don't you think?

Certainly wasn't proved true. If anything, Obi-Wan versus Anakin was one of the fastest duels in the movies.

But then again Ian is in his sixties and out shape so in a way I might see that statement true, notice the word "might".

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Well in the origional script Sids threw the fight but Sammy L. Jackster wanted to go out like a badass.


Wrong. Mace Windu always had the fight in his hand. Sidious had killed three Jedi Masters and couldn't handle Mace's swordsmanship. Mace is just damn good.

He's talking about the original script where Sidious completely and utterly pwnd Mace and Yoda.

Yep. I saw the special on tv where GL and Sammy talked about that.

I missed the special on that. Hopefully it will be on the extras on the ROTS DVD.

I would've preferred that script; to be honest. Since it is 'Revenge of the Sith'.

Me too I mean having the Jedi be stronger than the Sith when the movie is called 'Revenge of the Sith'.

I think if they were gonna have Mace pwn Sids, least he coulda done was be a better duellist. Sammy looks like he's nekkid in traffic holding his schlong in every scene, while Ian looks like Sammy's stealing his AARP card or Handicapped parking space.

lmao

Originally posted by Lord Simus
He's talking about the original script where Sidious completely and utterly pwnd Mace and Yoda.

Too bad it didn't happen that way. This means Sidious completly did none of that.

I know that why don't you relax.

Wow. great arguements. I am one of those who believe Sidious is stronger than Tyranus but have not been able to put up as much of a fight as you have. But to add to why Sidfous is stronger (with the Force, anyways) Mace, who is stronger than Obi-Wan, had trouble holding back Sidious's lightning with his lightsaber while holding his saber with 2 hands. AOTC Obi-Wan easily held back Dooku's with one hand. Yoda easily blocked Tyranus's with his hand but had extreme difficulty blocking Sidious's. As for dueling, it be very close and I'm actually not sure who's better but your Grievous arguement was a very good point.

Still, Obi didn't have very much trouble when he wasn't using the Force.

Yes, Dooku is superior. But although the Obi vs. Grievous duel lasted a long time, but the actual lightsaber duel part of it was very quick and Obi won it by alot. But also isn't Obi-Wan's fighting style supposed to be good against Grievous? But either way...

Yeah, but look at what he did against Yoda. Which shows that he fakes the fight with Mace. But that is for another thread. So is this topic, though.


Although not a fact that palpatine threw the Mace duel, it is a fact that he fakes his little "I'm to weak" thing with Mace and Anakin, which is why he seemed winded.

Same here. Must be a cool dude if you and I both miss him.


Uh, yeah, I remember that. And when I went into that I didn't know how bad your temper got when someone argued with you and you were the one who had the pissy fit. The others in that thread actually sided with me.

and Escape81, I have to warn you now that no matter what Sorgo will always dislike you for saying Sidious is stronger than Tyranus.




Uh, huh. And you waited to tell me I made it up till now. very convincing.

No. No one knows for sure till GL reveals the answer. And if you havn't noticed, I'm winning in the poll I created 22 to 13.


Yeah, the fastest would be Yoda. But then again, who says Sidious used his full speed in ROTS? And wasn't the part where he longed at the Jedi supposes to be way faster than it appeared?

True dat. Only Grievous moved his sabers faster when he was spinning them.

yeah, and Sidious vs. Dooku should go here: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=358340&highlight=sidious+vs+dooku

Here, that reminds me...

Dooku's lightning, one of the hotly contested articles of that old thread...

http://img421.imageshack.us/img421/2944/anislap6sr.gif

Dooku manhandling Obi and Anakin...

http://img421.imageshack.us/img421/3923/000obithrow9wk1wy8yu.gif

Handling two fighters...

http://img421.imageshack.us/img421/8617/anakinobiavatar6kw9df.gif

Dooku handling Anakin's two bladed attack.

http://img421.imageshack.us/img421/4761/anidooku7mo.gif

I don't know Sorgo all too well. He seems pretty cool from his posts on my thread. But, if he hates me simply because I state my opinion, then so be it. Considering how there isn't really a lot of proof indicating that Dooku is 'more powerful' than Palpatine; when logic dictates the exact opposite. But I won't start anything. He has his opinion and I have mine. The fact of the matter is, it hasn't been proved either way.

Deus, Dooku's lightning is powerful, yeah.

dooku is da bomb!

Yeah. Makashi looks to be the best lightsaber form. He handles it very well.

the one thing that i like about the lightsaber battles are the beauty of them except for Shii Cho and Niman

There was a big fight over Sidious or Dooku, who had the most powerful lightning... Personally, I would think Sidious' was more powerful, but both are inconsistant. And in particular, Sidious looks like he puts more effort and power into his, while Dooku uses it as one uses a whip. He'd rather duel than shoot lightning at people.

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/4526/otslightning8ii.gif

Versus

http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/4305/yodaepiii15dd6me.gif

I've read around, too. A lot of people make Yoda seem that he spanked Palpatine around. Now, I think Yoda would've eventually won in the end, due to Palpatine's reckless fear of him (kind of like Harry Potter. The Dark Lord Voldemort is frightened of only one person: Dumbledore) and the fact that Yoda had immense defensive skill.

But Palpatine got him a few good times. He landed the first blow (in fact, landed the stronger one, too), chucked pods left and right, and then got to blast Yoda's saber from his hands.

But in the end, Yoda would've won.

Well, the script shows that Sidious was disarmed (A scene which was cut from the movie) shortly after the pod raised into the Senate chamber. This shows that saberwise, Yoda would pwn the hell out of Sidious on even ground.

Well, he'd do it nearly to anyone. But again. Palpatine and Yoda had an intense battle. Perhaps on par with Anakin and Obi-Wan's own. Dooku held his own in a saber duel against Yoda, but he would've lost, too. In the Star Wars prequels, Yoda is the most powerful being.

But like I said. I wish Sam Jackson wasn't concerned about the death of his character. If he was, Lucas simply shouldn't have had him duel Palpatine. Perhaps Windu could be killed by a mass ambush of Clone troopers (MASS).

Or an explosion.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Well, the script shows that Sidious was disarmed (A scene which was cut from the movie) shortly after the pod raised into the Senate chamber. This shows that saberwise, Yoda would pwn the hell out of Sidious on even ground.
I think Yoda's the better dueler (he seemed to be winning the saber part) and Sidious is stronger with the Force (Clouded the minds of all the Jedi, was chuckiing pods at Yoda while laughing like a maniac ect.) overall no one can deny that whoever's stronger it's close and IMO they are overall so close that if they foughta again yoda might win, the third time Sidious might win again while the fourth time Yoda might pull off a victory.

Or Lucas could've found a legal loophole that required Sam Jackson to finish the movie, and then have Jar Jar kill his character off for Sam's arrogance.

No, Yoda is the stronger force user too. Watch the last lightning battle between them: Yoda is hit with a blast... he drops his lightsaber and begins absorbing the energy. Sidious pours out his second hand, upping the ampage... Yoda leans back. Finally, Yoda steels himself and pushes forward. Sidious makes a face like someone hit him in the nuts with a nine iron. Boom.