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As you already know this thread is how to appropriately scale Revan's skill and power, so could we start this discussion off with which ending is canon?

LS ending is Canon.

Says who or what officially?

Lucasarts I believe. But Bioware said the Darkside ending was the canon one.

I'd like to see where this is stated exactly other than Wikipedia.

No, I've seen that BioWare said the Darkside ending was canon elsewhere. I'll try and get a link.

But then, I'm not sure whether they said it was canon or they just prefered it.

The Obsidian KOTOR II website does call Revan "Darth Revan" even after the battle with Malak, and certainly follows a dark side trend. However, it also calls Revan a jedi master when he left for the war, which I have never seen verified elsewhere so I'm thinking it might have been a typo or perhaps oversight.

Great. Just great. The game developer says one thing, and the publisher says another.

Which is why EU will always be the bastard child of the series. No master plan.

Ah well, keeps the debates flowing.

In any case, I'll still play the games. Just never debate them with any real proof.

As it is, TOTJ and KOTOR technology and lightsabers look nothing alike and yet are supposed to be within half a century of each other at the latest point.

Its pretty impossible to scale Revan's power. All we can say is that he was incredibly powerful in his time.

But now he's dead....so Fook you Revan.

Kotor's Dark Side ending can't be canon because of KotoR II:

First:
No matter what side you choose in KotoR II you're always told that Master Vandar died on Katarr being killed by Nihilus. In the Dark Side ending of KotoR Vandar dies with the rest of the Republic forces during the battle of the Star Forge.

Second:
Obviously the Sith didn't conquer the Republic and this is what would have happened if Revan continued the war (Vandar in KotoR says that if they fail to destroy the SF the Republic is lost). There are still organized Republic forces - something that would have happened if the DS ending of KotoR would be canon.

Third:
Why would Revan leave known space to fight the Sith Empire if he's still the Dark Lord ? Neither is the Sith Empire a threat in KotoR times nor Revan would have to "fight" since he's already the Dark Lord.
And even if he did it for some reason - why would Sion or Nihilus command the Sith troops and NOT Bastila ?

So by any means the light side ending is canon - why is something that is true for all Lucas Arts SW games (the Jedi Knight games at least).

And considering Revan's power: He has to be more powerful than Kavar since Kavar failed to defeat Malak and barely escaped alive while Revan was able to defeated Malak (no matter if Revan was DS or LS).

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Kotor's Dark Side ending can't be canon because of KotoR II:

First:
No matter what side you choose in KotoR II you're always told that Master Vandar died on Katarr being killed by Nihilus. In the Dark Side ending of KotoR Vandar dies with the rest of the Republic forces during the battle of the Star Forge.

Second:
Obviously the Sith didn't conquer the Republic and this is what would have happened if Revan continued the war (Vandar in KotoR says that if they fail to destroy the SF the Republic is lost). There are still organized Republic forces - something that would have happened if the DS ending of KotoR would be canon.

Third:
Why would Revan leave known space to fight the Sith Empire if he's still the Dark Lord ? Neither is the Sith Empire a threat in KotoR times nor Revan would have to "fight" since he's already the Dark Lord.
And even if he did it for some reason - why would Sion or Nihilus command the Sith troops and NOT Bastila ?

So by any means the light side ending is canon - why is something that is true for all Lucas Arts SW games (the Jedi Knight games at least).

And considering Revan's power: He has to be more powerful than Kavar since Kavar failed to defeat Malak and barely escaped alive while Revan was able to defeated Malak (no matter if Revan was DS or LS).

Problem with this theory is that it's open to contradiction by KOTOR III. For one thing, Vandar may have canonically died on Katar, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that it had to be either one ending or the other. Many games before have had alternate endings and the true one being more of a blend. Resident Evil is a fine example.

Holding this in mind, it's -possible- that there is some kind of alternate, hybrid ending where Revan is evil, but doesn't declare himself Lord of the Sith and attack the Republic, since that would negate the idea of KOTOR II. I think the problem is that there originally wasn't supposed to be a KOTOR II, and since it went to another company entirely, it's possible lines got crossed.

To say it's not possible at this stage in the game is a bit presumptuous.

Well that pretty much says LS ending is canon thank you for clearing that up Nai. Now if anyone would like to continue this lets try and figure out which of Revan's feats can be considered canon.

Right. I'll be over here away from the ignorance of KMC...

True yet still not enough evidence.



It was explained in the DS ending how Revan decided not to attack the Republic for unknown reasons. Also Vandar does not know everything.



Yes, but Revan only took the title of Dark Lord because he believed that it was the only way to defeat the ancient Sith. When he left Bastila followed after him so how could she have commanded the Sith troops?



This is unfounded.



Considering what we know of Revan he without a doubt would easily defeat Kavar. Using Kavar as a comparision is foolhardy since I doubt any of Jedi Counsel members would have been able to take on Revan.

so LS is cannon then?

Yes. LSD is a cannon. It will shoot your mind through the roof.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Kotor's Dark Side ending can't be canon because of KotoR II:

First:
No matter what side you choose in KotoR II you're always told that Master Vandar died on Katarr being killed by Nihilus. In the Dark Side ending of KotoR Vandar dies with the rest of the Republic forces during the battle of the Star Forge.

Is that so? I don't remember hearing anybody say that when I choose Revan as DS... But i'm not sure.



Wrong.... Revan left for unknown space, we know that much. Why he did it either on the Dark or the Light side is unknown. F



Well first of all, he left for unknown space because he had found something there before the Jedi Civil War. He wanted to destroy it, he decided to go alone. Obviously he felt it was necessary to go alone. He didn't take anybody of his crew along. He left them behind, and he refused to take an army with him. Republic or Sith wouldn't have mattered. If the threat was trully great enough for Revan to go there, then it seems logical the Jedi and the Republic would have gladly send an army along to stop it from ever doing what Revan thinks it will do. No way they are going to sit by and watch events take place that they can not control. Revan made the decision to go alone, light side or dark side doesn't change anything.

Why Sion and Nihilus lead the troops? They don't. They lead a section of the Sith troops. After the rebellion on the Academy on Korriban there were no real Sith rulers anymore. Bastila was there on that Academy where the most powerful students died trying to control the Star Forge. People more powerful then Bastila. Bastila talks about how she refuses to follow anybody but Revan. Why would she follow if she was more powerful. So really Sion and Nihilus don't lead all the Sith and Bastila can't lead them because she isn't powerful enough to lead them all.

LSD shoots a long way I suppose.


But anyway, we will know more once Kotor 3 is out.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Problem with this theory is that it's open to contradiction by KOTOR III. For one thing, Vandar may have canonically died on Katar, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that it had to be either one ending or the other. Many games before have had alternate endings and the true one being more of a blend. Resident Evil is a fine example.

KOTOR III doesn't need to contradict KOTOR II. Even if Revan is on the Dark Side again in KOTOR III he could still have changed his mind after the events displayed in KOTOR.
The LS ending - if you consider it to be canon - doesn't tell us what happened after it. Afaik Revan left known space one year after the battle of the SF and there are many things that can happen in one year.

Vandar died on Katarr is simply a fact. And when he died on Katarr he couldn't have died in the battle around the SF (which he does in the DS ending) so the DS ending can't be true because of the information given in KOTOR II. That doesn't mean that Revan can't have turned to the DS again after the events of KotoR. I personally think it's very likely that's what he did.



As I said - even if considering the LS ending to be canon that wouldn't contradict the idea of Revan turning to the DS again after the events of KotoR. I personally won't believe that somebody changes his philosophy in such drastical ways.
And just think about it: You're a Jedi and you discover some great threat to the Galaxy. Would you not take all forces you can possibly get to destroy that threat ? The fact that Revan went alone - in my oppinion - implies that he maybe wanted to use whatever he discovered for his own plans. At least I don't have any other idea why he should have gone alone.

He went alone so as not to let the Old Sith (or whoever) use the others against him, or make him kill them or something. I belive Kreia says it at the end of KOTOR2 and Bastila says the same AFAIK.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
KOTOR III doesn't need to contradict KOTOR II. Even if Revan is on the Dark Side again in KOTOR III he could still have changed his mind after the events displayed in KOTOR.
The LS ending - if you consider it to be canon - doesn't tell us what happened after it. Afaik Revan left known space one year after the battle of the SF and there are many things that can happen in one year.

Vandar died on Katarr is simply a fact. And when he died on Katarr he couldn't have died in the battle around the SF (which he does in the DS ending) so the DS ending can't be true because of the information given in KOTOR II. That doesn't mean that Revan can't have turned to the DS again after the events of KotoR. I personally think it's very likely that's what he did.



As I said - even if considering the LS ending to be canon that wouldn't contradict the idea of Revan turning to the DS again after the events of KotoR. I personally won't believe that somebody changes his philosophy in such drastical ways.
And just think about it: You're a Jedi and you discover some great threat to the Galaxy. Would you not take all forces you can possibly get to destroy that threat ? The fact that Revan went alone - in my oppinion - implies that he maybe wanted to use whatever he discovered for his own plans. At least I don't have any other idea why he should have gone alone.

Erm, I fear you are mistaken. It never says when I play it that Vandar died on Katarr.

Actually ,my point was that KOTOR III might not contradict II, but instead II contradict I. See, in the original there were two possible endings. Both had vastly different outcomes. Neither of these outcomes neccessarily has to be the canon ending.

Like I said, Resident Evil is an excellent example: in the first game depending on who you pick you can progress through the game differently and saved one other person aside from yourself. However, canonically, four people survived the ordeal, and even one of the endings was retroactively altered to allow for one individual to escape without dying.

Also, saying either a lightside or a darkside ending is canon (Despite hintings from both Obsidian and Bioware that they prefer one or the other) is a bit premature. Especially when you consider the rather ambigious nature of Revan.

We need a book to settle all this crap.

Originally posted by Darth Traya
Erm, I fear you are mistaken. It never says when I play it that Vandar died on Katarr.

it says it in KOTOR II that vandar died on katarr from darth nihilus.

Does it say the same thing when Revan is on the Dark Side.