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The whole Exodus mess has me thinking - at what point do we re-define the status of a character and retroactively demote or promote him?

Exodus is a great example - he burst onto the scene and wowed everybody. Here's a guy who got the best of Sersi, fought off the Avengers, the X-men and crushed Genosha at the same time and only lost due to a Deux ex Machina. He's had a good showing against Thena as well.

But then, creeping up slowly, came less uber showings. He lost to Nate and Cable, and there's no shame in that, but the way he lost was disconcerting. He lost to Joseph, which is also somewhat understandable, but Joseph's inexperience would have allowed Bloodties Exodus to dominate.

He lost to Holocaust, who he should have dominated because Holocaust has no resistence to telepathy (both Tessa and Maddie owned him with just a telepathic gesture).

Then things started getting really weird - a Class A telepath who had to use some kind of alien parasite for an interrogation to pull memories out of someone.

Something was very wrong with my character.

And that's when it got really bad. Loses to the likes of Hulk, Havok, and even Wolverine.

At this point - it's pretty clear that Exodus is no longer considered a Top Tier Powerhouse and upcoming battles featuring him should no longer be seen as such, and he is no longer being matched against top opponents. So the question is - how should we now view Exodus? Should we retroactively downgrade the things he's done? Does that mean that Holocaust's defeat of him shouldn't be seen as impressively? Apocalypse? X-man's?

All things counted - Exodus hasn't had "a few" bad showings. I'd say since his repeated humilation in X-men a few months ago, considerably more than 50% of his battles have been losses against subpar competition.

In the broader context - it's not just Exodus. It's every "jobber". When does it stop becoming jobbing and start becoming the new status quo? When do we ignore some showings, like Galactus losing to Thor or Firelord losing to Spider-Man and focus on others?

Because this is a battle board:

Overall Exodus (factoring in ALL of his showings) vs.

Holocaust
Hulk
Jean Grey (max non-Phoenix level)
Charles Xavier (TP battle)
Martian Manhunter
Thor
God-like Cable
Apocalypse
Magneto

Exodus wins all save Magneto

Originally posted by demigawd
The whole Exodus mess has me thinking - at what point do we re-define the status of a character and retroactively demote or promote him?

Exodus is a great example - he burst onto the scene and wowed everybody. Here's a guy who got the best of Sersi, fought off the Avengers, the X-men and crushed Genosha at the same time and only lost due to a Deux ex Machina. He's had a good showing against Thena as well.

But then, creeping up slowly, came less uber showings. He lost to Nate and Cable, and there's no shame in that, but the way he lost was disconcerting. He lost to Joseph, which is also somewhat understandable, but Joseph's inexperience would have allowed Bloodties Exodus to dominate.

He lost to Holocaust, who he should have dominated because Holocaust has no resistence to telepathy (both Tessa and Maddie owned him with just a telepathic gesture).

Then things started getting really weird - a Class A telepath who had to use some kind of alien parasite for an interrogation to pull memories out of someone.

Something was very wrong with my character.

And that's when it got really bad. Loses to the likes of Hulk, Havok, and even Wolverine.

At this point - it's pretty clear that Exodus is no longer considered a Top Tier Powerhouse and upcoming battles featuring him should no longer be seen as such, and he is no longer being matched against top opponents. So the question is - how should we now view Exodus? Should we retroactively downgrade the things he's done? Does that mean that Holocaust's defeat of him shouldn't be seen as impressively? Apocalypse? X-man's?

All things counted - Exodus hasn't had "a few" bad showings. I'd say since his repeated humilation in X-men a few months ago, considerably more than 50% of his battles have been losses against subpar competition.

In the broader context - it's not just Exodus. It's every "jobber". When does it stop becoming jobbing and start becoming the new status quo? When do we ignore some showings, like Galactus losing to Thor or Firelord losing to Spider-Man and focus on others?

Because this is a battle board:

Overall Exodus (factoring in ALL of his showings) vs.

Holocaust
Hulk
Jean Grey (max non-Phoenix level)
Charles Xavier (TP battle)
Martian Manhunter
Thor
God-like Cable
Apocalypse
Magneto

When it comes to Exodus i am EXTREMELY biased.....so don't be surprised.

vs. Holocaust: like you said, Exodus. Holocaust = no protection.

vs. Hulk: Exodus. He can blink and turn Hulk back into Banner, then proceed to kill Banner.

vs. Jean Grey: already pwnd in Blood Ties.

vs. Xavier: Xavier, but with great difficulties. Exodus almost overcame him back when he attacked the x-mansion with the acolytes. Took Xavier a lot to put him down. And in blood ties, he took Xavier's (not proved, but the way Xavier looks says it all) stronger (st) mental blasts and got up a bit dazed, but quite fine. Magneto wasn't that lucky.

vs. Martian Manhunter:
Interesting.....i don't know HOW powerful MM's TP is. All i know is that Exodus is incredibly powerful when it comes to both TP AND TK. He can also increase his own strength and endurance to superhuman levels, while STILL using his TP and TK.....however, the most important thing to factor into this battle is his psychic vampire thing. He'd be sucking on MM's energy while amping himself all the time. After a long hard battle Exodus wins.

vs. Thor:
I honestly simply don't know of many Thor vs. TP battles. Most situations like that that i've seen lead to Thor being mind-controlled. If he has some sort of TP protection, good for him. I doubt Exodus could last long against continuous pounding from Mjolnir. If he doesn't have some STRONG TP defense.....he'll be going down.

vs. God-Like Cable:
I'd say Exodus loses more often than not.

vs. Apocalypse:
He's already lost to him once. I don't think he'd win, but he would probably put up quite a good fight. Who knows.....maybe even score a few wins......he's got what it takes to take Apocalypse out.....he's probably just not sure how to use it.

vs. Magneto:
First off, he'd never fight his idol. I mean......the guy worships the ground Magneto walks on.....our lord Magnus.......but assuming they fought.....i don't know.......they're very similar.....
Magneto is a lot stronger when it comes to metal objects, and a lot more versatile. Exodus is a lot more versatile when it comes to powers of the mind. Both can amp their physical traits, etc. etc.
However, Magneto would most likely win 8/10.

~wickerman~

I'm glad you're on this thread. Since you're biased in his favor - how do you see current Exodus? Do you just disregard all of his bad showings over the past, I think it's almost been ten years since his fall from Grace (loss to Holocaust)? Is that fair? Is that right?

Originally posted by demigawd
I'm glad you're on this thread. Since you're biased in his favor - how do you see current Exodus? Do you just disregard all of his bad showings over the past, I think it's almost been ten years since his fall from Grace (loss to Holocaust)? Is that fair? Is that right?

Technically they were both "falling to their dooooooooom" if you mean the fight from Avalon with Holocaust. That didn't even bother me THAT much. It was the constant attempt to amp Cable and Stryfe which resulted in him getting his ass handed to him. Hell......Sersi should be able to mop the floor with the Cable from then, and Exodus somehow lost to him and Stryfe? Yeah.....sure......
I usually try to ignore the bad showings, and go with his stated powers and abilities, and his good feats. I'm wondering if he's coming back now.....would be awesome to see him having kept his powers while Quicksilver loses his.......man......the sheer fun if they met on the street
"YOU!!!! Son of Magnus......"
"crap.....run..........................crap......"



~wickerman~

Originally posted by Wickerman
Technically they were both "falling to their dooooooooom" if you mean the fight from Avalon with Holocaust. That didn't even bother me THAT much. It was the constant attempt to amp Cable and Stryfe which resulted in him getting his ass handed to him. Hell......Sersi should be able to mop the floor with the Cable from then, and Exodus somehow lost to him and Stryfe? Yeah.....sure......
I usually try to ignore the bad showings, and go with his stated powers and abilities, and his good feats. I'm wondering if he's coming back now.....would be awesome to see him having kept his powers while Quicksilver loses his.......man......the sheer fun if they met on the street
"YOU!!!! Son of Magnus......"
"crap.....run..........................crap......"



~wickerman~

If you look closely at the panel, Exodus was unconscious after the explosion and Holocaust was raising his arms in triumph. In the panel before, Holocaust was blasting away with no response from Exodus. So it was meant to establish that Holocaust won. And Exodus was in an awful state in his next apppearance.

Last we saw Exodus (pre-HoM) he was beaten up by....Havok of all people! then ended up getting sucked into a black hole. Ugh.

But the thing is...Exodus has had some really bad feats, like i mentioned in my first post. Which of those do you disregard? All of them? ALL of them? Even when they outweigh his best feats?

I'm a huge fan of Exodus. Always was my fav villain. They've severly rooted up his character which really sucks. I just hope he makes it through Decimation, and becomes a threat again...

As for the battles...
Holocaust - I hated the way this fight was done. Exodus should've won easily...
Hulk - Exodus is too versatile, and wouldn't try to duke it out. Exodus wins...
Jean Grey (max non-Phoenix level) - Exodus...
Charles Xavier (TP battle) - This would be hard, but i think Exodus would take it eventually...
Martian Manhunter - Exodus could use his TK to power himself up so he could go toe to toe with MM for awhile, while they're both waging TP battle. this wouldn't be easy...
Thor - Can't decide...
God-like Cable - God-like Cable was pretty damn uber. This is too tough a fight to call IMO.
Apocalypse - Apoc would win...already has...
Magneto - I see this going either way...

If Xavier could beat Exodus then MM could do it easier and faster.

man man man wow i didnt think there was this many Exodus fans out there.

1) thing i really have to agree with u guyz these writters are the worst. they are really just tossing Exodus in there and not allowing him to use his powers or even display them. The latest Exodus must be the worst ever, Havok polaris and i think it was iceman who shot beams and beat Exodus and he get suck into the blackwhole. but than again juggy and nocturn are out but him and the rest who got suck in are still there?
2) the battles, the 1 with x-man was pretty cool i didnt like the way it ended but it was good imo.holocaust battle as u guyz alrdy stated. with apoc if Exodus has more training with his power it might be different next time they fight. The fight with thor woooooo i dont know that is a toss up.
Now for jean, prof X and MM well if the battle is going to be a real battle than Exodus wins cause he will just feed off of them.

waaaaaaahh! exodus is such a great character; his psychic vampirism gives him sucha huge leg up against telepathic enemies. written at full, the only way to beat him would be to just speed blitz the crap out of him and hope is TK shield breaks.

shaman nate>=god cable>=exodus

they're all so close in my mind...along with legion, these guys are the top psions in marvel.

EDIT: i just recalled, there's sort of a failsafe built in to his character, an excuse for low showings. aren't is powers based on his faith that his actions are right? i remember hearing that somewhere...BAH, exodus is too cool of a character to succumb to gladiator-syndrome!