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i'd love to hear some theories on what exactly you think both of them are exactly, as well as which you think is more potent and why. thoughts on how (or IF) the astro-force is related to the omega beams would be interesting too.

power cosmic cos if i said astro-force it would mean that lame-ass orion could take surfer and i can' t see this happening

power of cosmic is greater then the astro-force. Power of cosmic is pretty much limitless.

Originally posted by the Darkone
power of cosmic is greater then the astro-force. Power of cosmic is pretty much limitless.

yup

Originally posted by severance
power cosmic cos if i said astro-force it would mean that lame-ass orion could take surfer and i can' t see this happening

if you said AF it would mean Orion could beat full power Galactus

Orion was supposed to be more powerful than pre-crisis Darkseid, and Darkseid was, back then equal to Galactus.

So, whenever Orion was supposed to surpass Darkseid, he would have surpassed Galactus. Meaning, with enough time, the AF would be above Galactus.

But, not now of course.

Power Cosmic can do more variety of things. AF can only kill.

So, probably PC.

<<if you said AF it would mean Orion could beat full power Galactus>>

not necessarily. it would depend on the extent to which he might use it. the af stems from the source -- in all of dc is their a GREATER source upon which to draw? is it not speculated that the source is a manifestation of sorts of the presence's power? if that is indeed the case, to be equal, a marvel hero would need to wield something akin to the phoenix force.

and just what is the pc? ss DRAWS on the pc by absorbing ambient cosmic energy from the universe. is it the universe's energy? the source stems from a place BEYOND the universe. i contend that the af is actually the more potent of the 2, though pc certainly seems to have greater uses. orion can only channel the af through his harness, and can only use it to create shields, augment his strength and blast things.

orion is i think certainly on par with ss. he just doesn't possess the same command of the af as ss does of the pc.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<if you said AF it would mean Orion could beat full power Galactus>>

not necessarily. it would depend on the extent to which he might use it. the af stems from the source -- in all of dc is their a GREATER source upon which to draw? is it not speculated that the source is a manifestation of sorts of the presence's power? if that is indeed the case, to be equal, a marvel hero would need to wield something akin to the phoenix force.

and just what is the pc? ss DRAWS on the pc by absorbing ambient cosmic energy from the universe. is it the universe's energy? the source stems from a place BEYOND the universe. i contend that the af is actually the more potent of the 2, though pc certainly seems to have greater uses. orion can only channel the af through his harness, and can only use it to create shields, augment his strength and blast things.

orion is i think certainly on par with ss. he just doesn't possess the same command of the af as ss does of the pc.

Power cosmic is a lame ass PIS device. It sounds as stupid as it is. "Gee, I can't think of a way to resolve this...so lets let POWER COSMIC solve the problem!"

<<Power cosmic is a lame ass PIS device. It sounds as stupid as it is. "Gee, I can't think of a way to resolve this...so lets let POWER COSMIC solve the problem!">>

Translation: Power Cosmic >>>>>Superman so Avvy doesn't like it.

Originally posted by brainchild81
Translation: Power Cosmic >>>>>Superman so Avvy doesn't like it.

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Power cosmic is a lame ass PIS device. It sounds as stupid as it is. "Gee, I can't think of a way to resolve this...so lets let POWER COSMIC solve the problem!"

No biggie actually. Superman is PIS device.

- Heat vision > OE
- T-Vo
- Strength to put Darkseid into Source Wall
- Sundipping - PIS within PIS
- Boom tubing powers

Pre Crisis Darkseid was no more power then Zeus or Odin

Dude, you should read more PC DC Comics !!!

Power of cosmic is limitless potential, AF has it's limits but affective. I'll take the power of cosmic any day of the week.

Originally posted by golem370
Pre Crisis Darkseid was no more power then Zeus or Odin



WHAT CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by golem370
Pre Crisis Darkseid was no more power then Zeus or Odin Except that they were scared of him.

<<Power of cosmic is limitless potential, AF has it's limits but affective. I'll take the power of cosmic any day of the week.>>

what limits have you seen? ss's 'limitless' power was nothing compared to odin's and is nothing compared to thanos's. even galactus's power fluctuates madly. again, af comes from the source. where does pc come from that would make it more potent? so far, people have said pc, but have given no reason/evidence to back up their opinions.

they can tap into limitless might, but their bodies cant handle the stress of trying to channel it. their firepower is what their bodies can control

<<they can tap into limitless might, but their bodies cant handle the stress of trying to channel it. their firepower is what their bodies can control>>

yep. but which has the potential to be more potent? i say af.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Power of cosmic is limitless potential, AF has it's limits but affective. I'll take the power of cosmic any day of the week.>>

what limits have you seen? ss's 'limitless' power was nothing compared to odin's and is nothing compared to thanos's. even galactus's power fluctuates madly. again, af comes from the source. where does pc come from that would make it more potent? so far, people have said pc, but have given no reason/evidence to back up their opinions.

Both powers are referenced as limitless...like most others in comic.

When it comes down to it, it's the wielder that counts.

The Power Cosmic is basically the base energy of existence, though not to the extent that the Phoenix Force is. The Power Cosmic is like an amalgam of all forms and applications of energy. It could be called the "Power Science". With it, you can manipulate the fabric of existence along the scientific lines of existence, like the atomic structure of matter (for instance, turning bullets into daisies, turning a man of flesh and bone into a being of a silvery substance infused with and able to manipulate all energy in the EM spectrum, creating Tyrant, terraforming) or energy (re-energizing the "spirit" of the near dead, energy manipulation, transmuting matter into energy).

It's basically control over the lines of physics.

<<When it comes down to it, it's the wielder that counts.>>

true. which is why i made the thread power v power, rather than ss v orion. sans wielder, which is more powerful?

<<The Power Cosmic is basically the base energy of existence, though not to the extent that the Phoenix Force is.>>

i'm curious where you got this from or if it's just speculation, ill. if that is indeed it's origin, (and i for one don't ever recall there BEING a true 'definition' of the power cosmic) it would seem to me a power derived from the source (ie astro-force) would then be the more powerful of the 2 -- at least origin-wise. again, a power derived from the source would seem to me to be more along the lines of the phoenix energy as it appears to be a manifestation of the 'supreme being's' power.

Actually, i believe that it was once believed that the PC enabled one to create life. If i'm wrong, please check me. But if not, its simple. He who can create life is always more powerful than one who can only take it. Can the AF create life?? If so, state the info, buddy. at least thats my view. Nebody can kill, but not everyone can create.

i don't belive the pc can CREATE life -- not from nothingness. as for the af, it does more than simply destroy -- it can shield, heal orion and enhance his strength. frankly im not SURE if it has been put to other uses in books. looking at just where the powers originate from, af seems the more powerful.

the power cosmic can do anything that is possible even create life which galactus has proven.the pc has no limits and can be used 2 accomplish anything.if it turns an ordinary person/alien 2 the silver surfer thats hell of an accomplishment.in marvel the power cosmic is the strongets science in the universe.all i have seen the asto force do is kill so i'll take the power cosmic anyday

what 'life' has galactus created from nothingness?

the af has also been shown to be able to heal holes in reality. orion also possesses some magnetic powers, though i;m not sure if these are his own (i think so) or if they are a manifestation of the af.

in any event, the af is more than simply a destructive force.

Actually Leo, in the Marvel U, all energy derives from the "Phoenix Force". Phoenix Force is simply the name for the energy. It's the base of all things Marvel (per Claremont's insane retcons).

From a "scientific" standpoint, the Power Cosmic allows the wielder near full manipulation of matter and energy.

Surfer can't 'create' life, though he can sustain and replenish it if necessary, and he has terraformed and created plant life. I guess he just can't create sentient lifeforms like people. I don't think Surfer could wave his hand and create Hawkeye or Inspector Chimp identical to their original dna.

Galactus, on the other hand, created Tyrant, turned Norrin Radd from a humanoid into a being of physically manifested Power Cosmic in a silver candy shell, created the other heralds, and of his own power, can transmute matter to energy and vice versa (though he uses machines for the process so he doesn't have t exhaust his own powers), so it may be a possibility for him. His limitation as the balance between Death and Eternity means that he has to constantly replenish his physical being.

He kills to live and lives to kill. That's his purpose.

The Power Cosmic also grants a higher degree of perception along the lines of physics (perception of energy signatures). It's a fundamental aspect of the universe, like quantum physics in action.

Like I said, it is basically the power to at will manipulate physics to your means.

Now, being that in DC "The Source" is supposed to be equivalent to the Phoenix Force, doesn't that mean that all things DC are somehow derived from the Source? The Phoenix Force is simply the name given to the power which TOAA used to create all things. The Power Cosmic falls under that since it is derived from the TOAA, as all things are.

Are there things in DC that DC's God didn't create, or create the capacity for said thing to be created?

Are you trying to compare Orion to Surfer or to Galactus, because there is an ENORMOUS difference in the applications of the Power Cosmic for both characters.

Surfers small fraction of the Power Cosmic puts him on the same level as the highest end Green Lantern with a few added abilities that don't require extreme willpower in order to function.

Galactus, fully powered, on the other hand, is in the league of the Guardians, if not higher (regardless of what Krona did to him in that crossover, Galactus is also a notorious jobber). He can absorb all energy and matter within a universe into himself at will, though due to his purpose he doesn't.

Originally posted by leonidas
i don't belive the pc can CREATE life -- not from nothingness. as for the af, it does more than simply destroy -- it can shield, heal orion and enhance his strength. frankly im not SURE if it has been put to other uses in books. looking at just where the powers originate from, af seems the more powerful.

Tyrant. Galactus created Tyrant.

He even ressurected himself, Surfer, and Strange back to life during Infinity War.

the power cosmic displayed at its best can do anything create life take life give life anything

Illedelph's posts a few above me seem to be the best logical explanation yet for justifying PC as equal to AF. Leo seems to have picked a fight in which not too many know much about AF (myself included, I'm just going by what I've read in the thread so far) but plenty know about PC.

If AF is directly from the Source (as I understand from leo's explanations) and PC is "an aspect" of the Pheonix Force (which is basically TOAA or Marvel's equivalent of The Source) it would seem to me that, assuming both universes are on roughly the same omnipotent-being-power-scale, that AF has more of a claim to being more powerful...though they might both just be equal. That said, like Beyonder said, it does always depend on the wielder (like Galactus vs. Orion or Surfer for example) but based solely on the powers that's how I see it. Probably a 60% chance AF is stronger and 40% chance they're equal, and without more knowledge I can't say which one.

P.S. Bear in mind, my opinion is based solely on raw power...PC is obviously a bit more versatile in its uses.

When did the pheonix force become the power cosmic?

The phenoix force is a universal force that represents future life. She's not the godamn TOAA.

Originally posted by sam_drugbringer
When did the pheonix force become the power cosmic?

The phenoix force is a universal force that represents future life. She's not the godamn TOAA.

Er, not quite what I said...sorry if I misrepresented facts.

I was referring to ill's comments above. Pheonix Force is a fundamental force of creation, existence, Claremont retcon, yadda yadda.... PC, being a part of existence, and "limitless" according to many in-text references, is an aspect of this limitless force. But no, I didn't mean to imply that PC and PF were intrisically tied together as one or anything like that.

P.S. I realize I'm probably screwing up some of this pheonix stuff (not a huge X-fanboy), but I'm just trying to make sense of the arguments and opinioins I've read so far.

iwould say thay are the same cuz oriion uses the astro force the same way marvel guys use the power cosmic. he has used it to augment his strentgh, from there already incalcualbe levels to an even further extent , sustain his life force, small amounts of matter manipulation and a number of other things. but he mainly uses it to destry shit. it is said to be so powerful that it was used from the surface of a planet to shoot giant space ships that were in space at the time.

i would also say it all depends on who is weilding the cosmic at the time also but from my pov they both seem to add up to the same

with regard to the PF. the same way the Oan power battery is the collection of the entire mutliverses inhabitants willpower, the same for the Phoenix except its the mutliverses psionic energies or to put it more simply the enegies from everyone's consciousness

Originally posted by illadelph12
Actually Leo, in the Marvel U, all energy derives from the "Phoenix Force". Phoenix Force is simply the name for the energy. It's the base of all things Marvel (per Claremont's insane retcons).

From a "scientific" standpoint, the Power Cosmic allows the wielder near full manipulation of matter and energy.

Surfer can't 'create' life, though he can sustain and replenish it if necessary, and he has terraformed and created plant life. I guess he just can't create sentient lifeforms like people. I don't think Surfer could wave his hand and create Hawkeye or Inspector Chimp identical to their original dna.

Galactus, on the other hand, created Tyrant, turned Norrin Radd from a humanoid into a being of physically manifested Power Cosmic in a silver candy shell, created the other heralds, and of his own power, can transmute matter to energy and vice versa (though he uses machines for the process so he doesn't have t exhaust his own powers), so it may be a possibility for him. His limitation as the balance between Death and Eternity means that he has to constantly replenish his physical being.

He kills to live and lives to kill. That's his purpose.

The Power Cosmic also grants a higher degree of perception along the lines of physics (perception of energy signatures). It's a fundamental aspect of the universe, like quantum physics in action.

Like I said, it is basically the power to at will manipulate physics to your means.

Now, being that in DC "The Source" is supposed to be equivalent to the Phoenix Force, doesn't that mean that all things DC are somehow derived from the Source? The Phoenix Force is simply the name given to the power which TOAA used to create all things. The Power Cosmic falls under that since it is derived from the TOAA, as all things are.

Are there things in DC that DC's God didn't create, or create the capacity for said thing to be created?

hmm, that's an interesting theory. i'm curious: are you claiming then that pc is a derivative of the phoenix force? i've never seen or read anything to indicate that to be the case. though i suppose that now that you've said it, galactus was given birth and power as a result of the pf's nuturing. isn't that how current continuity presents things?

continuing to read your post though, it sounds ALMOST like you're saying that basically ANY power manifested in dc (and presumably marvel by your comment) derives from these 'highest sources'. i will disagree with the latter assessment. it would imply for instance, that spidermans' radioactive blood is in some way a manifestation of the pf because at it's root, it had its ultimate origin in TOAA as spiderman (and any creature) is manifest as a result of TOAA. i guess that might ULTIMATELY be true, but spidey's blood and pf are so far apart as to make any relationship negligible. pc might be CLOSER in lineage to pf, but i don't believe it is an actual 'aspect' of it. i confess to being uncertain though.

af is an ACTUAL MANIFESTATION of the source - ie the source and af are one and the same power. orion simply does not possess full command over it. it does not change the relationship though, a relationship that is absolute, while (if i understand you correctly) you are implying the pc is a derivative of the pf.

again, i'm not debating the apparent versatility difference, rather the intrinsic 'power/potency' each possesses. and i'm not bringing individual's into this at all. it is strictly a discussion based on the powers as they have been themselves presented. others have tried bringing wielders in, but that's not my aim.

<<But no, I didn't mean to imply that PC and PF were intrisically tied together as one or anything like that.>>

but that's sort of the impression ill was giving, i think. though if that's not what he intended, i apologize and look forward to a little clarification.

<<the power cosmic displayed at its best can do anything create life take life give life anything>>

sorry for the multiple posts. forgot one thing -- the astro force has been called the WRATH of the source. as a result, it was granted to orion BY the source to be USED for destructive purposes, primarily. ostensibly to oppose darkseid. again, it is MEANT for destruction by the will of the source. but again, it is a direct manifestation of the source. so, while it is not as versatile (it was not meant to be terribly versatile), it still seems the more potent of the 2 to me.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Tyrant. Galactus created Tyrant.

He even ressurected himself, Surfer, and Strange back to life during Infinity War.
When?

When Galactus/Nova/Strange/Surfer blew up and died? Strange is the one who forced them back to life, not Galactus.

Originally posted by long pig
When?

When Galactus/Nova/Strange/Surfer blew up and died? Strange is the one who forced them back to life, not Galactus.

Strange was the one that kept them from Death's grip.

Read it again. Galactus was the one to pull them together and reformed the World Ship.

Originally posted by Beyonder
Strange was the one that kept them from Death's grip.

Read it again. Galactus was the one to pull them together and reformed the World Ship.

Where does this happen? Maybe I'm not seeing it.

http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/2870/death12hw.th.jpg


http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/1042/death25fa.th.jpg


http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/9297/death30xe.th.jpg


http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/2990/death48gz.th.jpg


http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4605/death57vs.th.jpg


http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/811/death61jw.th.jpg


http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/6421/death73ur.th.jpg

<<After escaping from the Binding Bess, Orion
: creates an image/construct of himself with
: the Astro-Force in the skies of Apokalips.>>

that's interesting. i've always suspected the af CAN be used for many things, but i've not personally seen it often.

thanks long. btw, you never DID say which you feel is more powerful, af or pc . . .

More powerful? Astro Force.

Which has shown more feats or variety? Power Cosmic.

I mentioned that Orion will one day be more powerful than Darkseid, who was Galactus' equal. So, basically, AF is more powerful, but Orion just hasn't used it to it's full potential yet.

agreed. always good to have you on my side, long.

Next up should be Godblast vs Astro Force.

Another Impressive Astro Force Feat.

When a doomsday device threatened to "Unmake the Universe", Orion, newly released from the Source and therefore weak, matched and contained these energies with his Astro-Force. It was previously stated that the Astro-Force was the only energy powerful enough to match these energies.

Astro Force is equal to a universal destroying force.

Another weird feat was Orion using his Astro Force to grow thousands and thousands of feet tall. He was dwarfing a planet.

That's a completely bad-ass showing from Strange. You picked a good character to be a fanboy of LP...and props for the sweet scans as well. Your feats of the AF confirmed what I gathered from leo's points earlier.

Originally posted by brainchild81
Translation: Power Cosmic >>>>>Superman so Avvy doesn't like it.

Yet Brainchild feels the need to defend it.

"Power Cosmic being made fun of??? This is a job for....Brainchild! *cue cheesy music*

<<Next up should be Godblast vs Astro Force.>>

i think that is simply the essence of an immortal. i don't think it's power runs as deeply, or is as deeply ingrained and interwined with the universe, as these other 2. it's destructive power is great, but again, i'm not measuring quantity, but rather potency based on it origins and source (no pun intended . . .)

<<That's a completely bad-ass showing from Strange. You picked a good character to be a fanboy of LP...and props for the sweet scans as well. Your feats of the AF confirmed what I gathered from leo's points earlier.>>

nice to see you contributing in a non-tourny related discussion, digi. seems your mod duties have limited your ability to join in on all the fun!

This should be in the "Warrior Mad Thor vs Orion", but I can't remember the issue. Do you know it?

It's when a MotherBoxless Orion fought the JLA to a stand still defeating each one individually and it took all of them combining there powers at once to finally stun him enough so they could comunicate with him.

If I can remember the issue, I can provide scans.

Originally posted by leonidas


Yeah, the tourney and modding eat away my KMC time right now. Once the tourney's over I'm planning on taking a brief hiatus (i.e. doing mod duties but no extraneous posting and stuff) since I need a bit of a break, but then I should be back to contributing more.

Glad I'm being noticed though.

i imagine it WOULD take a lot of time, especially as it is all voluntary. are there really any perks to the job?

and i'm not sure the issue you're talking about, long. when i started the orionw/omotherbox/madthor thread nearly everyone said thor almost at once. as with most dc characters, it is clear many don't know what they are REALLY capable of . . .

Originally posted by long pig
Where does this happen? Maybe I'm not seeing it.

http://img436.imageshack.us/img436/2870/death12hw.th.jpg


http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/1042/death25fa.th.jpg


http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/9297/death30xe.th.jpg


http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/2990/death48gz.th.jpg


http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4605/death57vs.th.jpg


http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/811/death61jw.th.jpg


http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/6421/death73ur.th.jpg

Damn, you took it wayyyy back. That was the issue that made me respect strange back in the days.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Yeah, the tourney and modding eat away my KMC time right now. Once the tourney's over I'm planning on taking a brief hiatus (i.e. doing mod duties but no extraneous posting and stuff) since I need a bit of a break, but then I should be back to contributing more.

Glad I'm being noticed though.
Best "Vs" mod so far.

<<Best "Vs" mod so far.>>

how do you become a mod anyway?

You pretend like you don't want to be one, and when you're asked to be one, you say "I don't know....maybe", so you won't look too willing.

Originally posted by leonidas
are there really any perks to the job?

Well, the power's always fun. And I can't actually ban anyone personally, but if I ask it of the Global Mods (with a reason) it gets done without question, so it's as good as having the power myself. And I get crazy respect from everyone now (except those who knew me well before I was a Mod who just enjoy ignoring my Mod-dom)....so especially with newer members, I'll get random PMs like "Hi you're cool" and "Here's some images you might like since I see you like Megaman" (that 2nd one happened recently and I'm using one of the images for my avy). But no, nothing terribly tangible.

Honestly, though, I don't mind being a Mod...I thought I'd start to hate KMC if I did it, but it's actually pretty cool. I don't enjoy HKH and JP threads anymore (not everything's a perk) and it's a bit more time involved, but I like it.




LOL. Exactly. You just have to be asked and then be all humble about it. Well...that or you could send me lots of money...


Thanks, I try. But Tron and Paola do lots too (don't want to take anything away from them). Tron does as much modding as I do, he just posts less. And Paola has to watch multiple forums...I only have this one.

... ...sorry to break from the topic so much, but it just seemed to come up.

Tron the Wakanda Pimp ??

He only shows up in BP and Tick threads !!!

Originally posted by Avalonofthewind
Yet Brainchild feels the need to defend it.

"Power Cosmic being made fun of??? This is a job for....Brainchild! *cue cheesy music*
Translation #2: Avvy doesn't like the way I called him on it, so he felt the need to make a very lame comeback. In that, he was successful. Good job man.

Originally posted by brainchild81
Translation #2: Avvy doesn't like the way I called him on it, so he felt the need to make a very lame comeback. In that, he was successful. Good job man.

Glad I made you feel accomplished.
Then again, I would expect this from someone who hates superman, but is ALWAYS in his forum.

I won't expend any more energy on you since it has nothing to do with this forum...but thanks for the laugh.

Ok, then let me clarify my stance.

I think they are equal.

The Astroforce has great destructive capabilities, as does the Power Cosmic, and a weilder can use it to augment their other abilities.

Feat for feat, it's pretty much a wash.

Galactus can absorb entire universes, matter and energy, to fuel himself at will, he simply doesn't because he has a role in the universe that he must fulfill.

Now, it has not been written that the Power Cosmic is an "aspect" of the Phoenix Force, nor would I say that, though it has been written that the AstroForce is a direct dirivitive of the Source.

My point before, as I've stated to GS many times in his quest for Phoenix Superiority, is that by technicality (and Claremont insanity), all things Marvel stem from the Phoenix Force. It's just the flowery name given to God's power of creation, which encompasses all things.

Now, the Power Cosmic, as well, is the energy in all things in existence. Claremont's retcons of Phoenix didn't take a lot of other established definitions into account (which is why reading Marvel is so mind numbingly painful nowadays).

The Power Cosmic is universal energy (and not universal as in the universe, but universal as in all encompassing and varied; the full spectrum), and what I mean by that is that based on the theory that all energy is related (and a step further, that all matter is simply condensed potential energy, and at its base is the same energy that is in all things), the Power Cosmic is full control over energy and matter, and all it's various applications (like creating wormholes, creating super dense matter, matter manipulation, energy blasts, transdimensional apetures, teleportation of matter by energy transference, turning water to Dr. Pepper, etc.).

I guess it's similar to the Force in Star Wars in that regard, as far as the definition goes, but not taking sentient consciousness into account as being the Power Cosmic like it is the Phoenix Force, just energy (though the Power Cosmic does grant wielders psionic abilities as well, but it's based on the theory of psionics being a form of energy and the existence of particles called psions. Telepathy as a wavelength, basically).

If the Phoenix Force is the Holy Spirit, the Power Cosmic is (or at least, was, until Claremont screwed everything up) applied Quantum Physics.










Oh, and Claremont sucks.

He sucks balls.

Originally posted by long pig
Where does this happen? Maybe I'm not seeing it.

There's a page where we see substances that are suppose to be Galactus and everyone else. It talks about it there.

http://img437.imageshack.us/img437/6421/death73ur.th.jpg

"Galactus recreates his World Ship and within it - Galactus - Myself -"

Even Death admitted that Strange will power kept Galactus and all of them from her grasp. But Galactus was taking time to gather himself and pull them back together.

Strange beat Death? Somewhat, Ancient One assisted.

Did he bring back himself and Galactus with Nova and Surfer? Um, no. Galactus did that. Unless you really think Strange can bring shards of Galactus, Surfer, Nova, and himself together.

A few issues more, he needed Galactus' help against Agamotto who trapped Strange like an insect.

A few issues later, Strange bargained with Cyttorak. Strange is powerful, but even he has troubles.

Bringing back Galactus himself? Um, not likely after something that actually killed and ripped apart Galactus, Nova, and Surfer.

Even when he beat Shuma Gorath, he needed to merge with Gorath's lieutenant to fight Shuma Gorath.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Well, the power's always fun. And I can't actually ban anyone personally, but if I ask it of the Global Mods (with a reason) it gets done without question, so it's as good as having the power myself. And I get crazy respect from everyone now (except those who knew me well before I was a Mod who just enjoy ignoring my Mod-dom)....so especially with newer members, I'll get random PMs like "Hi you're cool" and "Here's some images you might like since I see you like Megaman" (that 2nd one happened recently and I'm using one of the images for my avy). But no, nothing terribly tangible.

Honestly, though, I don't mind being a Mod...I thought I'd start to hate KMC if I did it, but it's actually pretty cool. I don't enjoy HKH and JP threads anymore (not everything's a perk) and it's a bit more time involved, but I like it.




LOL. Exactly. You just have to be asked and then be all humble about it. Well...that or you could send me lots of money...


Thanks, I try. But Tron and Paola do lots too (don't want to take anything away from them). Tron does as much modding as I do, he just posts less. And Paola has to watch multiple forums...I only have this one.

... ...sorry to break from the topic so much, but it just seemed to come up.

you are weak JP will crush you with multi phasic hyper velocity punches and HKH will be beyond ur league

<<If the Phoenix Force is the Holy Spirit, the Power Cosmic is (or at least, was, until Claremont screwed everything up) applied Quantum Physics.>>

i'll disagree with your assessment primarily because i think you're right -- as odd as that sounds. by your own assessment power cosmic is limited to the physical laws of the universe -- ie it is limited by the laws of quantum mechanics. there have also been instances where when the laws break down, the pc has ALSO broken down (galactus's power 'malfunctioned' and he was beaten by alpha flight in the tetrarchs realm -- i THINK that was the name of the world!) likewise, ss's powers have been shut off a couple times and have also undergone 'malfunctions' similar to galactus'.

as a portion of the source, i don't believe the astroforce is subject to these laws -- or rather i don't think physical law inhibits/limits its uses. like -- if gs is to be believed -- the pf is not limited by physical law. rather it is a force capable of CHANGING/REWRITING the 'laws'. suppose for a moment gs is right -- that would mean a pf wielder could alter the universe in such a way that the pc no longer functions. pc could NOT do likewise.

i think the astro-force/source energy is analagous to the pf and is capable of the same things the pf is capable of.

to say the astro-force and pc are equal, would imply the pc and PF are equal. i don't believe that to be the case, at least not in light of what has been shown recently. if they ARE equal, then gs is misrepresenting the PF (and i'm still not sure if he is or isn't misrepresenting it) and the source is likely greater than BOTH.

Interesting Leo.

There are a few problems with that assessment though.

It has been written that the Source and the Phoenix are equal if you take the crossover as cannon. Darkseid's Omega Effect is also a direct dirivitive of the Source, and it had little to know effect on Galactus and his Power Cosmic abilities in another crossover (though, then you have Krona murking Galactus like he was the jobber of all jobbers, and he's a Guardian).

You see, all New Gods powers and abilities, as well as that of the Motherboxes, and Orion's Astro Harness, are derived from the Source. The basis of your hypothesis, that the Astroforce is more powerful than the Power Cosmic simply because it is stated to be a direct dirivitive of the Source, is invalid, because the Omega Effect falls under the same classification, and it can't even kill Superman, let alone cause serious harm to Galactus.

Now, with the Astro Force being the antithesis of the Omega Effect, even seemingly more powerful, we'd never know until it is displayed which is actually more potent. Both he and Surfer never tap their full potential at all times for different reasons (namely, Surfer being a pacifisct pussy after feeding Galactus millions of planets for millenia after millenia, and then feeling guilty about it, and Orion being just plain too pissed off to fully focus).

If the Astroforce is beyond the bounds of the lines of physics, I'll give it the nod.

For now, I think it's equal. Nothing I've seen makes me believe it's of some divine order, but it's at the high end of energy sources none the less.

Is the Astro Force above the power of Oa?

<<Is the Astro Force above the power of Oa?>>

i believe it is (when utilized to it's potential which is a supposition i am making for this discussion, like i am supposing this is the pc at its height).

darkseid's omega effect is more complicated. that originated in the infinity pit, and i've never been able to ascertain that the pit has any direct relation to the source. i think kirby left it a little muddled, though i'd love to hear any evidence that DOES relate the 2. orion is also meant to eventually supplant darkseid (ie when he comes into his power he will be beyond darkseid). now, if you make one more assumption (why not?? ) we might say that darkseid=galactus (least according to kirby's initial thoughts). if orion is supposed to supplant darkseid, wouldn't that mean his power (again at its supposed POTENTIAL) is above not only darkseid's, but galactus's as well?

to say it another way: does it make sense to say ANY power is above the manifest power of 'god'?

what i'd like to know is can the astro-force deal with someone like the spectre? it seems from why i know of the 2 that there is a similarity between the source of their power.

in its way, i think dc is every bit as muddled as marvel . . .

You guys are close, but one must also consider ABUNDANCE of these powers when comparing them. It would also help not to include the Marvel vs DC crossover, as it isn't canon.
And yes, Orion will eventually replace Darkseid, as he did his father and so on.. It DOESN'T however make him have to be outright more powerful, rather... that however he does it, is enough to de-throne him, whether power, friends, or plot devices galore.
And while Power Cosmic is usually applied through advanced physics and quantum mechanics, a being like Spectre though these things cannot even be applied to. He is far beyond universal concepts, although sometimes the HOST soul may not be.

<<You guys are close, but one must also consider ABUNDANCE of these powers when comparing them.>>

abundance? you mean there is more of one than the other? they both seem to permeate BOTH universes . . .

are you saying the spectre's power is essentially the same as the power of the source? i've never understood the relationship between the 2: spectre and source.

and are you saying you belive the source/astro-frce IS indeed divine, hence above power cosmic?

Originally posted by leonidas
<<You guys are close, but one must also consider ABUNDANCE of these powers when comparing them.>>

abundance? you mean there is more of one than the other? they both seem to permeate BOTH universes . . .

are you saying the spectre's power is essentially the same as the power of the source? i've never understood the relationship between the 2: spectre and source.

and are you saying you belive the source/astro-frce IS indeed divine, hence above power cosmic? I was speaking of characters you were using to make the comparisons of the forces and how MUCH of these powers they have respectively.

And Spectre Force is an aspect of God, called The Logoz. However it tasks each HOST with different tasks that it must perform, and things it must learn so that it may find peace and pass into the afterlife. The Source is also another aspect.

And if Astroforce is derived from the source as this suggest, then you answered the question yourself... one must assume it is divine, but it would be granted divine power rather than a divine being, and the grantEE would limited by the grantER.

Isn't that kind of a paradox? All things are essentially derived from the divine. Just because the Astroforce comes from the Source doesn't make it above the Power Cosmic. The Power Cosmic is also derived from "The Source", i.e., the creator. All New Gods get their abilities from their proximity to the Source, as well as the Motherboxes that aid them. Not all New Gods can contend with Surfer or Morg (hell, or Airwalker) simply because there powers are from "The Source".

Let me step back for a second though. I don't want it to seem like I'm going to bat for the Power Cosmic (or Marvel).

I by no means think the Power Cosmic is more powerful than the Astroforce, I think they are equal, but not necessarily in applications. The Astro Force is mainly for destructive purposes. It's the "Wrath of the Source" (where as Spectre is the Wrath of God).

The Power Cosmic has both destructive and creative applications, but it's along the lines of quantum physics, and doesn't stem into the supernatural (magic). As a matter of fact, things of a supernatural nature pose a big problem for the Power Cosmic.

That being said, if the Astro Force is wholey supernatural, it might be a natural antithesis for the Power Cosmic. It's not a matter of the AstroForce being more powerful than the Power Cosmic, but more so a matter of it's properties being outside the realm of the Power Cosmic's abilities.

Kind of like Dr. Fate having spells that may not wholey be more powerful than Superman, but since Kal El's abilities are relegated to the EM spectrum, extradimensional energies effect him regerdless of their potency, and high end spells can outright kill him.

Or a GL being pelted to death with giant bananas simply because they are yellow.

The Source argument is irrelevant anyway. All cosmic energy in the DCU comes from the source. Whether it's the Astroforce, Oan energies, or Omega Effect doesn't matter. If the Power Cosmic was in the DCU, it would be from The Source as well.

<<The Source argument is irrelevant anyway. All cosmic energy in the DCU comes from the source. Whether it's the Astroforce, Oan energies, or Omega Effect doesn't matter. If the Power Cosmic was in the DCU, it would be from The Source as well.>>

i don't believe that any more than i believe oan energy and the omega effect are directly related to the source. since the phoenix force is responsible for creation, than wouldn't the argument then also hold that all cosmic energy comes from the pf in marvel? from the pc to cyclops' optic blast?

<<Isn't that kind of a paradox? All things are essentially derived from the divine. Just because the Astroforce comes from the Source doesn't make it above the Power Cosmic. The Power Cosmic is also derived from "The Source", i.e., the creator. All New Gods get their abilities from their proximity to the Source, as well as the Motherboxes that aid them. Not all New Gods can contend with Surfer or Morg (hell, or Airwalker) simply because there powers are from "The Source".>>

again, to me, it's more about the degree of seperation from the source. astro-force IS the source's undiluted power. for pc to be at the same level, it would have to be a direct extension of the phoenix force.

and you're right in what you said earlier, ill -- i am equating source and pf for this discussion. that of course may or may not be an equitable comparison, but for the discussion i think it is at least a fair assumption to make.

ill, would you say the pc and the pf are equally potent?

Yeah.

That's actually how it is now Leo, as convoluted and assinine as it seems in it's execution.

The Phoenix Force is the name for the power TOAA used to create all things Marvel.

It's simply the name of a tool/"aspect" of God.

Basically, it's the Holy Spirit in Christianity.

By technicality, well, due to this fact being inserted into Marvel canon via a neurotic writer named Claremont, the Phoenix Force is responsible for everything, from Abomination to Zeus, from Hydrogen to Uru, from science to magic.

The Phoenix makes all things considered 'reality' (creation) possible, save a couple of concepts.

Choice is still logically above Phoenix due to the fact TOAA has the choice whether to create or destroy, so taking that a step further, it may still be effected by causality (possibility and probability).

That can't logically be denied.

To say Phoenix is absolute is to say TOAA has no free will.

At anytime the Phoenix Force could be re-assigned to a lesser role or replaced, even if that occurence is near completely unlikely.

.

Now, to say the Power Cosmic and the Phoenix Force are equally as potent;

No, I wouldn't say that.

But I also wouldn't say that the Astro Force is equally as potent as the Source itself.

As I've said before, the Power Cosmic is power over quantum physics, but quantum physics follows certain rules or principles. There are things, like magic, which are able by their nature to break these rules, which in itself does not make these things more powerful, it's simply their role as part of the balance in creation. For any amount of order there has to be an equal amount of chaos, essentially, which is why you have the rules and the exceptions to the rules (which actually means you have no rules if there are exceptions, but I'm not going to get to deep into chaos theory, it caused me insomnia when I was studying it back in school, which is why I focussed more on law and graphic design).

Per current continuity, the Phoenix creates the rules, meaning it can rewrite the rules to it's whims with no need to break them, since it is the base of all possibility in existence.

It's basically God's will manifested, so the only thing able to check it is God himself, either directly or through another instrument/aspect of his will.

Or Xorn posing as Magneto.

"Jgggg..."

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anyway:

The Soure and the Phoenix Force are more than likely equals if they facilitate the same roles in their respective Multiverses.

The Power Cosmic is control over order/the rules (quantum physics, if you can call that order) within Phoenix's creation, where as magic is control over disorder/breaking the rules within Phoenix's creation. Essentially, the Phoenix Force created the Power Cosmic to facilitate that role. Quantum physics is an aspect of the Phoenix Force due to the Phoenix Force being in all creation. Order is an aspect of creation. Phoenix is the base of all creation.

The Astroforce is a power of destruction within creation. It's called the "Wrath of the Source". Your argument is that it being dubbed, essentially, an aspect of an aspect of the DC God, makes it divine.

That line of reasoning is inherrently flawed, going back to the original rationale;

All power sources stem from the same source. That does not make all power sources of a divine order.

Whether the connection is written or not, that's just common sense.

Just because it is not written that the Power Cosmic is the "Wrath of the Phoenix Force" does not make it's power or purpose more or less potent to the Astroforce, which is deemed "The Wrath of the Source".

You can only guage it based on it's applications.

There may be things the Astroforce can do that the Power Cosmic can not and vice versa.

When Orion starts using his powers to create beings that can take Kal El 1 on 1, I might take notice.

As I'm always telling GalacticStorm (who I consider a friend on here), you can't confuse purpose with power.

Purpose is purpose.

That's why I'll never agree that Phoenix is anything more than equal to the Living Tribunal at best.

Nothing I've seen from Orion and his Astro Harness (Astroforce) would make me place his powers above the destructive capabilities of a well-written high end Green Lantern, or the full potential of the Force far above that of the Power of Oa or the Quantum Zone.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=5176594

whistling

This put Orion near death, so much so that the Surfer had to fend off the Black Racer

Damn.

Well, I can hear the "crossover's aren't canon" argument coming, but that is kind of telling.

But still, it doesn't mean that the Astroforce is less powerful as much as it means that Surfer is more adept than Orion at that point in time.

I don't see Orion being on a full powered Galactus's level.

Question: Is Darkseid more powerful than Yuga Khan?

Originally posted by illadelph12
Damn.

Well, I can hear the "crossover's aren't canon" argument coming, but that is kind of telling.

But still, it doesn't mean that the Astroforce is less powerful as much as it means that Surfer is more adept than Orion at that point in time.

I don't see Orion being on a full powered Galactus's level.

Question: Is Darkseid more powerful than Yuga Khan?

Crossovers are not Canon, but remeber what Darkseid did to Thanos and the Surfer in Marvel/DC.if we which to go down that route - and the Omega force is not more powerful imo than the Astroforce.

Yuga Khan is greater than later Darkseid showings - Yes
but I think Darkseid of Great Darkness etc could match him - maybe

<<That line of reasoning is inherrently flawed, going back to the original rationale;

All power sources stem from the same source. That does not make all power sources of a divine order.>>

that's the thing -- it is not 'stemming from the source' -- it IS the source, granted to orion BY the source. to me, it's akin to one of the pf avatars wielding the pf. the avatar may not possess ALL the pf, or be able to control it completely, but it is inherently -- despite the lack of control -- the pf. in the same manner, there is no difference, zero degrees of seperation between the souce and the astro-force. true enough that orion may not have the level of control of the af as ss does of the pc (that x-over still didn't do orion justice i don't think, and don't forget in that same issue the omega effect polished off the ss with one shot -- omega effect > than pc?)

by allowing the assumption pf=source, then saying you don't think pc is equal to pf, that implies that pc must be less than af because af = source, ie it IS the source's power. it is being limited (for the most part, because it has been used in many other ways) BY THE SOURCE to function mainly as a weapon of destruction at this time, but it is still the same power that exists beyond the wall.

and you're right, marvel's new cosmology DOES seem to suck.

by the way, thanks for the entertaining and thought provoking discussion.

Originally posted by Mindship
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=5176594

whistling

This put Orion near death, so much so that the Surfer had to fend off the Black Racer

Well, now I know that it shouldn't be counted as canon if Surfer held off Black Racer, who is the harbinger of death.

Black Racer..... pretty whack for a name eh ??

Originally posted by EsteemedLeader
Well, now I know that it shouldn't be counted as canon if Surfer held off Black Racer, who is the harbinger of death.

Poor wording on my part. The Surfer stands before the Racer and warns him to leave Orion alone, that O is to noble a warrior to die this day--how much SS could have acutally done to stop BR is another matter. But in those few seconds the Surfer bought for Orion, O's motherbox fixed him up.

Thing is, I always thought Orion was tougher than this (and I am no Orion fan). But this was also SS before Galactus reduced his power and before the sonic shark reduced SS's power even more.

And yeah, "Black Racer" is a pretty lame-o name. And why would Death's harbinger zip around on skiis? Sounds like SS clone to me, a clone trying not to look like one. For that matter, I'm not too crazy about "astroforce" either.

kirby's names are CLASSICS!! mr miracle? big barda? granny goodness?

what's not to LOVE!?

and you're right mindship, that wa sa poor showing of orion. he actually seemed to DOUBT himself, or fear ss's power. very bad characterization for someone that should certainly be viewed at ss's level.

No problem Leo. Thank you too. It's good to have an intelligent convo on here without someone getting defensive andd hurling insults simply due to a differing view. Some people treat comic book fandom like religion and take it way too far.



I see your point, but here's the thing:

The Power Cosmic was created by the Phoenix Force to fulfill a role in creation. It does come from The Phoenix Force, and it is, technically, the Phoenix Force, it simply isn't the complete Phoenix Force. Everything from Jubilee's fireworks to the Crimson Bands of Cytorrak to Anthropomorpho's dimension's powers to create manifestation bodies for abstracts comes from Phoenix.

Thanks to Claremont's meddling, everything Marvel is Phoenix based.

Now, the Power Cosmic is not the complete Phoenix Force, but it is of the Phoenix Force, just as the Astroforce is not the complete Source, but of the Source. The power comes from Phoenix, but Surfer, or Galactus, or any other wielder of the Power Cosmic, is not a Phoenix Host. The Power Cosmic is the power to control the physical laws of creation (quantum physics, or a reasonable comic book equivalent of quantum physics) granted, and created, by TOAA through Phoenix.

The Astroforce is the ability to destroy granted by the Source.

Orion is not a "Source Avatar". He's not a living physical embodiment of the Source.

Now, with that said, there's still another question:

If the Astroforce is the Wrath of the Source, and the Spectre Force is the Wrath of the Presence, and the Source is an aspect of the Presence, isn't the Astroforce actually the Wrath of the Presence, because the Source is in actuality the Presence? Would that make Orion Spectre's equal? Or are Orion's powers an aspect of Spectre since the Source is an aspect of the Presence?

<<If the Astroforce is the Wrath of the Source, and the Spectre Force is the Wrath of the Presence, and the Source is an aspect of the Presence, isn't the Astroforce actually the Wrath of the Presence, because the Source is in actuality the Presence? Would that make Orion Spectre's equal? Or are Orion's powers an aspect of Spectre since the Source is an aspect of the Presence?>>

ha! i was wondering the same thing. it's why i invited juntai in because he seems up to date with current dc cosmology. according to him, it appears to be structured in the (gulp) vein of kabbalah. that is, there are different manifestations of the presence's power but all ARE the presence's power. logoz is what he called the spectre's power. not sure if the source of simply 'the source', or some other name when associated with the presence. one thing appears to be clear -- both emanate DIRECTLY from the presence.

one thing -- you keep associating af with destruction. that's not entirely true. as i said, it has performed many other functions, including healing ruptures in the universe. it also drives and sustains orion himself.

<<just as the Astroforce is not the complete Source, but of the Source.>>

true, it is not the complete source. but one important word keeps your statement from being wholly true -- <<just as the Astroforce is not the complete Source, but of the Source.>> should more accurately read:

just as the Astroforce is not the complete Source, but IS the Source, nonetheless.

least that's the way i've interpretted the power based on what i've read.

you've made a great argument (and taught me a lot about the pc in the process (by the way, are these speculations of yours or has all this been outlined in the context of a comic book somewhere?)) but my main contention remains the same:

the astro-force and the source remain one and the same, while pc and pf are not. in fact, pc appears from your argument to be the lesser of the 2 powers. again, assuming equality between source/pf, that would imply af>pc.

whew . . .

Originally posted by long pig
Where does this happen? Maybe I'm not seeing it.

It's happening here. Strange died before Nova, Surfer, and Galactus, who himself is about to die.

Watch.

Strange died before Nova, Surfer, and Galactus, who himself is about to die.

Galactus pulling himself together, but needs a bit of help.

Strange uses the Vishanti to assist Galactus pull himself together.

From the pages of ORION #24

"The Astro-Force, the harness, my wristbands are one and the same. They are a part of the Source and cannot be destroyed. Not by mortals. Perhaps not even by gods! A power beyond the comprehension of the flesh. They are the wrath of the Source, Lightray! And I, who along stand poised between the ferocity of Apokalips, and the compassion of New Genesis, am its wielder. A light that burns in the heart of darkness! - Orion, to Lightray

with regards to the power cosmic as i understand it this power allows the users to manipulate almost any form of energy, manipulate the life-force of the users and others, manipulate the elements, teleport and MUCH more with enough experience. Essentially whatever exists in the universe(especialy on a quantum level) is what these powers can emulate given enough time and experience. that is why i revert back to my stance of it depends on the weilder.

for example, lets just step down a bit.....i prime example, would be that firestorm and shift can create anything just by re-arranging elements while zatanna can conjure anything from thin air just by speaking backwards. just picure that on a cosmic scale and that the differnece between magic and science

now, with regards to the argument of wheter the A-force is divine or not...I believe it iis becuase it is a DIRECT tool of the source, which is a DIRECT tool of the presence. so that means the source is divine(i think we all would agree) so any energy it exudes must have some hint of divinty. not necessarily in the flowery sense of the word but nonethless.... when Orion channels it thru his harness it is coming from the wall itself to make matters worse. the Power Cosmic on the other hand is just beings having the ability to coalesce, and harness the already free floating energies that make up everything in the multiverse on a quantum level and bending them to thier will. in essence stuff that already exists

the Phoenix Force i would leave that out of this becuz thanks to Claremont(not jumping on the hate wagon or anythng) a lot of established aspects of Marvel were disregarded. like the Goblin Force for example. becuz The Phoenix Force is an entity that represents the total psionic energy of all sentient life from the past, present and future in the universe. the key words being SENTIENT LIFE, so something doesnt have to be sentient for it to be associated with EXISTENCE. so in that regard the PF doesnt have anything to do with divinty, or science for that matter. but in a nutshell i still maintain that as Ive seen it with my own two eyes, the astro force, and the power cosmic adds up to appox. the same thing. Cosmic weilders just choose to do different things than Orion, who is all about destruction, but im sure if he focuses the energy it could do the same. besides thats what he does anyway by using the mother box to do stuff like heal, merge with computers and all other various effects it all comes from the source.

<<If the Astroforce is the Wrath of the Source, and the Spectre Force is the Wrath of the Presence, and the Source is an aspect of the Presence, isn't the Astroforce actually the Wrath of the Presence, because the Source is in actuality the Presence? Would that make Orion Spectre's equal? Or are Orion's powers an aspect of Spectre since the Source is an aspect of the Presence?>>


Spectre Force is not the Wrath of the Presence.
Spectre Force is the Logoz, it is a piece of God itself.
It is the wrath of God.
Presence is an aspect, Spectre is an aspect, Source is an aspect.

<<Presence is an aspect, Spectre is an aspect, Source is an aspect.>>

so logoz=source=af=aspect of presence=divine power=(arguably)phoenix force

pc<pf

therefore af>pc.

and thanks manjaro. that's basically the argument i've been trying to make. your direct quote from an issue helped solidify it in my mind.

So, it's basically magic?

not sure i would characterize it that way, but it more than 'physical control' as the power cosmic is.

Been away for a couple days, so I'll pick up where I left off:



Firstly, no Leo, the description I've given of the Power Cosmic isn't speculation, it's directly from bios of Galactus (and Silver Surfer). Manipulation of all forms of matter and energy, and applications there of (quantum physics to the initiated).

The Power Cosmic is "of" the Phoenix Force now, due to Claremont's delusions, because by technicality, everything is of Phoenix, so it's of the same capacity as the Astroforce being the Source. Due to not tying up loose ends though, there are glaring disparities (hell, holes and bullsh*t) in the definitions of Marvel's hierarchy.

Basically, the Power Cosmic is manipulation of the full spectrum of energies, and applications there of, up to extradimensional forms of energy (magic).

Galactus can engulf and absorb magical energies and dimensions, and close dimenstional apetures caused by magic, but he simply doesn't like to because it's far more difficult a task than he likes to undertake given that magic goes against the natural order. He could literally eat magical dimensions for breakfast (like Mephisto or Agamotto's Realm), but he'd need a cosmic antacid afterwards.

It's not written that the Power Cosmic is divine (as Marvel is not overly theology based to begin with), but it is an integral part of the fabric of Marvel creation, or at least was until a certain writer disregarded all sources of Marvel historical references to bring about the current role of the Phoenix in the X books.

For all intents and applications, I still believe the Astroforce and the Power Cosmic (the actual energy sources) to be equal, even if it hasn't been written by a Marvel writer that the Power Cosmic stems directly from the Phoenix Force.

Unless, of course, Orion can cast spells using the Astroforce. Then I'd give it the nod easily.

As of now, I still don't see how it's above the power of Oa.

i was wondering when you'd get back to this!

and your assessment is fair enough. we'll agree to a minor disagreement.

<<It's been a good exchange Leo>.

at least on this we DO agree!

later

This is one of the most interesting threads I've seen on the forum.