Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Spectre has a direct order from The Presence vs Thanos with THOTU.

My money is on Spectre because a direct order supercedes a toy created by TOAA/The Presence.

Thanos will slap damn near anyone with the HOTU. Thanos wins.

Spectre wins.

Again, I'm thinking Spectre wins because an order given to him by The Presence in carrying out a task virtually turns Spectre into an arm of The Presence/TOAA, thus nullifying Thanos with THOTU.


Did that make sense to anyone?

The Presence or the TOAA themselves have to stop Thanos if he has the HOTU.

Thanos with HOTU > LT = Spectre(Powered by the Presence)

Or Warlock(Marvel's Messiah) could simply talk him out of such a power.

Are you sure, Adam?

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
The Presence or the TOAA themselves have to stop Thanos if he has the HOTU.

Thanos with HOTU > LT = Spectre(Powered by the Presence) LT<<Spectre, Spectre is an aspect of God, not powered by it. He is another piece of it called Logoz.

Presence/Source/Logoz are all just aspects.

Technically, Spectre = Presence currently
Which is of course greater than HOTU.

Originally posted by Juntai
LT<<Spectre, Spectre is an aspect of God, not powered by it. He is another piece of it called Logoz.

Presence/Source/Logoz are all just aspects.

Technically, Spectre = Presence currently
Which is of course greater than HOTU.

To you everything equals the Presence. Have it be Pre-Crisis Darkseid, Spectre or a Full Potential Flash that can rain down Multiverses as attacks.

Read THE END saga.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
To you everything equals the Presence. Have it be Pre-Crisis Darkseid, Spectre or a Full Potential Flash that can rain down Multiverses as attacks.

Read THE END saga. Out of that group only Spectre is in a league with Presence.
Darkseid seeks the anti-life equation that WOULD make him near the Presence's power
and FPF would be closer to a Guardian's level, since I even pointed the comic where it is called the same force the guardians drawn energy from. Unless by FULL POTENTIAL you erringly mean Flash with no PIS/CIS?

Originally posted by BobbyD
Are you sure, Adam?

I'm sure of my opinion. Opinions Vary. LT has judged against beings like Thanos and Adam Warlock with the Infinity Gauntlet. The Heart Of The Universe is quite beyond the IG or the Phoenix Force...(Hides in fear of a backlash from GS bag)

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
I'm sure of my opinion. Opinions Vary. LT has judged against beings like Thanos and Adam Warlock with the Infinity Gauntlet. The Heart Of The Universe is quite beyond the IG or the Phoenix Force...(Hides in fear of a backlash from GS bag)

To be fair going by on panel depictions HOTU hasnt done anything Phoenix hasnt been stated and/or shown to be capable of. Phoenix collapses reality at the end of the creation cycle and claims LT in this process. Thats what happens naturally according to X-men Forever. The fact that it was possible for Stranger to tap into Phoenix and bring this end about on his own timetable shows you how great this power is.

So how exactly is it greater again?

On top of that as an aspect of God a part of God i believe Spectre if supported by the Presence would be able to defeat one who is merely tapping into gods power. Thats just my opinion.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
To be fair going by on panel depictions HOTU hasnt done anything Phoenix hasnt been stated and/or shown to be capable of. Phoenix collapses reality at the end of the creation cycle and claims LT in this process. Thats what happens naturally according to X-men Forever. The fact that it was possible for Stranger to tap into Phoenix and bring this end about on his own timetable shows you how great this power is.

So how exactly is it greater again?

On top of that as an aspect of God a part of God i believe Spectre if supported by the Presence would be able to defeat one who is merely tapping into gods power. Thats just my opinion. And mine as well.


And technically with Presence's backing it would 2 aspects working together as well.

People forget Spectre Force doesn't use Presence's power anymore and he's not a cursed fallen angel anymore either, he's a full on piece of God.

If the mission required it, The Spectre could be as powerful as the presence (Alomst anyway)

He wins.

...(Hides in fear of a backlash from GS )


Good stuff, Adam.

Spectre = Presence? No.

Spectre's just a fallen angel. He's nothing special. With the Persmission of the Presence, he is powerful, but can still be owned by the likes of Lucifer and The Great Beast. Those guys are in the Presence's league. Not Spectre.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
Spectre = Presence? No.

Spectre's just a fallen angel. He's nothing special. With the Persmission of the Presence, he is powerful, but can still be owned by the likes of Lucifer and The Great Beast. Those guys are in the Presence's league. Not Spectre. Specre is NOT a fallen angel, that was pre-retcon Spectre, currently he is THE LOGOZ. A piece of God itself. Another one of the aspects. And the only reason Micheal even beat The Spectre in past occurances is because he was powered by The Presence and the HOST not to be confused with The Spectre, was NOT being powered by The LOGOZ.
Seriously, read Jordan's run of Spectre, it will make things clear.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
To be fair going by on panel depictions HOTU hasnt done anything Phoenix hasnt been stated and/or shown to be capable of. Phoenix collapses reality at the end of the creation cycle and claims LT in this process. Thats what happens naturally according to X-men Forever. The fact that it was possible for Stranger to tap into Phoenix and bring this end about on his own timetable shows you how great this power is.

So how exactly is it greater again?

On top of that as an aspect of God a part of God i believe Spectre if supported by the Presence would be able to defeat one who is merely tapping into gods power. Thats just my opinion.

Hmmm... Thanos wiped everything from existence... Then he brought everything back... Creation and destruction. Sounds like The Phoenix Force. Are they equal in your opinion? If they are, then Spectre will surely own the Phoenix Force as well.

Takes on secret identity to hide from GS backlash. man

Thanos with HOTU? I'm thinking Thanos can win this one. With it, he became equal to TOAA.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
Hmmm... Thanos wiped everything from existence... Then he brought everything back... Creation and destruction. Sounds like The Phoenix Force. Are they equal in your opinion? If they are, then Spectre will surely own the Phoenix Force as well.

Takes on secret identity to hide from GS backlash. man In Crisis on Infinite Earths, The Spectre destroyed and recreated the Pre Crisis multiverse into the DCUniverse and banished the Anti-Monitor from the matter realm.. at the same time.. In Zero Hour, he battled Parallax until he was out of energy, then Green Arrow shot him and downed him, then Spectre turned Damage into the big bang to restart time as it was so they could replace full power Hal with defeated Hal and correct the universe.

Just for a couple more:

And in Legends of the DCU: Spectre, issue 4, right before Hal's run of Spectre, summoned an army of angels to spread the fires of heaven and rebuild the world, because some psychic sent it up in flames. Then he judged the guy.

After Emperor Joker, Spectre and Mr Mxyzptlx rebuilt the universe in a few minutes time, and Mxyz even cracked a joke about how they were better at creation than God was.

Thanos wins. In Marvel the end #1 he is shown to be above the living tribunal. Tribunal is behind the Marvel logo on top of the comic.

Originally posted by Mordum
Thanos wins. In Marvel the end #1 he is shown to be above the living tribunal. Tribunal is behind the Marvel logo on top of the comic. And Living Tribunal is below Spectre.
He is a being powered by God. Spectre is part of God.
See the difference?
It's like Galactus vs Silver Surfer.

<<And Living Tribunal is below Spectre.
He is a being powered by God. Spectre is part of God.
See the difference?
It's like Galactus vs Silver Surfer.>>

good analogy, and well said. and jun, it's funny, you inadvertently hit a topic i was just discussing in another thread. power cosmic v astro-force/source. you seem to have a good grasp on current dc cosmology. why don't you drop in and weigh in on the discussion?

oh, and i agree with your assessment of this battle completely.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
To be fair going by on panel depictions HOTU hasnt done anything Phoenix hasnt been stated and/or shown to be capable of. Phoenix collapses reality at the end of the creation cycle and claims LT in this process. Thats what happens naturally according to X-men Forever. The fact that it was possible for Stranger to tap into Phoenix and bring this end about on his own timetable shows you how great this power is.

So how exactly is it greater again?

On top of that as an aspect of God a part of God i believe Spectre if supported by the Presence would be able to defeat one who is merely tapping into gods power. Thats just my opinion.
Phoenix wasn't there because she couldn't do shit.

He was the PF bud.

he also said LT is the stongest. meaning Stonger than Phoenix

and ya look at the date.

It's after X-men Forever ha there is you RETCON

The Spectre is or was a fallen angel that was transformed by The Presence into the new Divine Wrath. it is not really a part of God it just gets its power from The Logoz/The Word GOD (aka Jesus in the real world). Also didn't The Spectre blame him losing to The Great Beast because Jim was going crazy because of how much power The Spectre was giving him and that was the reason for him losing because Jim was causing The Spectre not to be able to fight The Great Beast as best he could. If Jim could have handled the Spectres power then it seems as though The Spectre could have beaten The Great Beast... this also puts The Spectre above Thanos with THOTU if The Spectre was ready which he should be in a real fight...

The closest anyone or anything that can get to Yahweh himself is seeing his Holy Presence which in the real world and DC comics is The Holy Spirit/The Presence...

Thanos takes him no problem. The spectre isnt any more powerful than the living tribunal. Thanos with the gauntlet is above the tribunal and eternity so therefore above the spectre.

Whew............ Im gonna need some time to ......comprehend all this stuff....

The HOTU = LT ............... IMO !!!

Presence powered Sepctre = LT ................... IMO !!!

The Spectre can just take away the HOTU !!!
Its like this......... he'll give Thanos a view of the universe 1000years in the future if he keeps on altering reality with THOTU......... Its some kinda uber-powerful Penance Stare........ Then, Thanos realized and gave up the HOTU !!!

What do you think ?? A little far-fetched ??

Originally posted by Juntai
And Living Tribunal is below Spectre.
He is a being powered by God. Spectre is part of God.
See the difference?
It's like Galactus vs Silver Surfer.

I fully agree.

Originally posted by Juntai
And Living Tribunal is below Spectre.
He is a being powered by God. Spectre is part of God.
See the difference?
It's like Galactus vs Silver Surfer.

Originally posted by Juntai
And Living Tribunal is below Spectre.
He is a being powered by God. Spectre is part of God.
See the difference?
It's like Galactus vs Silver Surfer.

It's debatable. Who's to say the power the Heart of The Universe is weaker than Spectre? Only your opinions. Everything is just an opinion. Did you read THE END saga Immortal One? Did you see what Thanos did to Living Tribunal, Infinity, Eternity, The Celestials, Etc???



LT and Spectre should be around the same power levels. LT patrols the Multiverse same as Spectre.

Originally posted by ImmortalOne
Whew............ Im gonna need some time to ......comprehend all this stuff....

The HOTU = LT ............... IMO !!!

Presence powered Sepctre = LT ................... IMO !!!

The Spectre can just take away the HOTU !!!
Its like this......... he'll give Thanos a view of the universe 1000years in the future if he keeps on altering reality with THOTU......... Its some kinda uber-powerful Penance Stare........ Then, Thanos realized and gave up the HOTU !!!

What do you think ?? A little far-fetched ??

How can LT be equal to Thanos with the HOTU?

Your scenario on the other hand could very well happen though. Spectre could try to show Thanos the future if he wants to. That could cause him to give up the HOTU... But not likely. He's not the Messiah of the Marvel Universe. Warlock is.

So according to your logic plus my logic/theory,

Thanos with HOTU > Spectre Powered by Presence = Living Tribunal > Phoenix Force

Yup. That's the way I see it.

See this pic?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/MU_THE_END_1.jpg

Thanos took everyone out in that pic. Blacked out the whole damn Multiverse. Then recreated it.

Originally posted by kgkg
Phoenix wasn't there because she couldn't do shit.

He was the PF bud.

he also said LT is the stongest. meaning Stonger than Phoenix

and ya look at the date.

It's after X-men Forever ha there is you RETCON

""He was the PF"? Huh? Dont know what youre referring to here but sounds like more of your theories on how phoenix is not greater than LT in spite of on panel evidence telling you otherwise. How ironic.

By your logic then Phoenix and LT couldnt do anything to Wanda when she was threatening the multiverse hence their absence. By your logic Phoenix is below the likes of the skyfathers and Eternity who were there.

Ridiculous

It was sfter X-men Forever however as ive said Thanos fighting the opposition and then finally faced with LT referring to him as "top of th efood chain" can be interpreted in many ways considering the circumstances he was depicted in on panel. In those circumstances he could very well have meant out of the gathered opposition. You need to understand that the way you interpreted it, the way you want it to be isnt necessarily the right way. Given that in current continuity LT gets replaced in the creation cycle via Phoenixes power then im sorry but it looks like my interpretation is correct. For that im sorry mate.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
It's debatable. Who's to say the power the Heart of The Universe is weaker than Spectre? Only your opinions. Everything is just an opinion. Did you read THE END saga Immortal One? Did you see what Thanos did to Living Tribunal, Infinity, Eternity, The Celestials, Etc???



LT and Spectre should be around the same power levels. LT patrols the Multiverse same as Spectre.



How can LT be equal to Thanos with the HOTU?

Your scenario on the other hand could very well happen though. Spectre could try to show Thanos the future if he wants to. That could cause him to give up the HOTU... But not likely. He's not the Messiah of the Marvel Universe. Warlock is.

So according to your logic plus my logic/theory,

Thanos with HOTU > Spectre Powered by Presence = Living Tribunal > Phoenix Force

Yup. That's the way I see it.

See this pic?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/MU_THE_END_1.jpg

Thanos took everyone out in that pic. Blacked out the whole damn Multiverse. Then recreated it.

At the end of the day what you seem to be forgetting is that Specre is a part of god an aspect. Thanos is just tapping into a part of Gods power. On top of that Spectre is given jurisdiction to stop Thanos. In crossovers TOAA and Presence are one. As shown in previous crossovers such as where Phoenix was depicted as the Source. With that in mind if Thanos is wielding the HOTU and Spectre is ordered to stop him then of course he could. It stands to reason and after ive just said what i have i hope you can see that.

As for LT being beyond Phoenix in current continuity thats really not the case. Not only does Phoenix have far better on panel feats than him but on top of that its actually stated ON PANEL that Phoenix is LT'S natural end. Just from that you can gather that Phoenix is at least on his level but the fact that X-men Forever depicts how by tapping into Phoenixes power you can forget the natural order and bring about his end on your own timetable shows you Phoenix is greater. How can you ignore evidence like that? Through her power not only does the creation cycle come to an end but the whole multiverse and that happens cyclically. It doesnt get much greater than that.

On top of that AW, Thanos with HOTU absorbed a reality, one reality as shown on panel. It was depicted clearly that he absorbed Eternity and LT after defeating the heroes. Not multiple Eternities but one. Show me anywhere in The End which referred to him absorbing the multiverse? The very fact that after the absorption is finished Adam W appears saying hes come from another dimension tells you for definite that it wasnt the multiverse as there wouldnt have been another dimension for him to travel to and he would have been affected. So there you have it the multiverse theory is outta the window. He absorbed then recreated a universe.

At the end of the day what you seem to be forgetting is that Specre is a part of god an aspect. Thanos is just tapping into a part of Gods power. On top of that Spectre is given jurisdiction to stop Thanos. In crossovers TOAA and Presence are one. As shown in previous crossovers such as where Phoenix was depicted as the Source. With that in mind if Thanos is wielding the HOTU and Spectre is ordered to stop him then of course he could. It stands to reason .....

That's what I'm thinking too, GS. Guys, are lot of you are forgetting that in this thread, I wrote that Spectre is given a directive. Is this no different than The Presence/TOAA doing it himself?

THOTU wins. Thisi s the fight where Spectre would go down hard.
And THOTU is beyond Phoenix Force. If Marvel ever showed absolute power, it was THOTU and not anyone else.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
On top of that AW, Thanos with HOTU absorbed a reality, one reality as shown on panel. It was depicted clearly that he absorbed Eternity and LT after defeating the heroes. Not multiple Eternities but one. Show me anywhere in The End which referred to him absorbing the multiverse? The very fact that after the absorption is finished Adam W appears saying hes come from another dimension tells you for definite that it wasnt the multiverse as there wouldnt have been another dimension for him to travel to and he would have been affected. So there you have it the multiverse theory is outta the window. He absorbed then recreated a universe.

I dont see the problem for HOTUT destroying all reallty, he would do it all existence so easuly what he did to LT, and there is only one LT. But Thanos didnt even understand or listnened to his absolute power, he hasnt close discovered it. He could go beyond ime and multiverse, there were no limits to him.

Originally posted by Xplosive
I dont see the problem for HOTUT destroying all reallty, he would do it all existence so easuly what he did to LT, and there is only one LT. But Thanos didnt even understand or listnened to his absolute power, he hasnt close discovered it. He could go beyond ime and multiverse, there were no limits to him.

NoOnes denying that he could destroy all reality with HOTU what we're saying is that in The End he never destroyed all of reality, just one universe. That was his feat along with absorbing LT.

On top of that please understand that Thanos is just tapping into Gods power Spectre IS god he is an aspect of him so with jurisidiction like ke has in thi sthread of course he would win, just like Phoenix would win if it was the will of Marvels supreme being.

Going by feats HOTU hasnt done anything that Phoenix has been stated on panel to be capable of.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
NoOnes denying that he could destroy all reality with HOTU what we're saying is that in The End he never destroyed all of reality, just one universe. That was his feat along with absorbing LT.

On top of that please understand that Thanos is just tapping into Gods power Spectre IS god he is an aspect of him so with jurisidiction like ke has in thi sthread of course he would win, just like Phoenix would win if it was the will of Marvels supreme being.

Going by feats HOTU hasnt done anything that Phoenix has been stated on panel to be capable of.

Tapping into God power is something that is beyond aspect of God.
Phoenix would be nothing for HOTU (in that time, LT was thought to be the most powerful, even for you GS, if today THOTU would happen again, even if Phoenix would intefere, you know how HOTU would be stopped, again, the one with HOTU should recreate evertyhing again). Phoenix or Spectre may be aspect of God, but THOTU, like it showed, was all God power, absolute power, that is why I said, tapping into God power is beyond being an aspect, whole is more than part.
Marvel clearly showed THOTU was beyond anything, so I think they also meant beyond Phoenix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Going by feats HOTU hasnt done anything that Phoenix has been stated on panel to be capable of.

Forget feats, HOTU was part of the Marvel only for few issues, so how to have such feats. Phoenix is someone that we will always see.
But you know why we wont see HOTU ever again, cause its far too much to be brought back again, it would be meaningless to have HOTU again.

Thanos wasn't tapping inot God's power he was God. If you read the end you will see that God had set Thanos up to take over his jobe because all of theMultiverse was unraviling. Lt judges multiple realities if Thanos wiped him out with a mrere thought then he is as powerfull as the TOAA because TOAA abidcated his position to Thanos.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Tapping into God power is something that is beyond aspect of God.
Phoenix would be nothing for HOTU (in that time, LT was thought to be the most powerful, even for you GS, if today THOTU would happen again, even if Phoenix would intefere, you know how HOTU would be stopped, again, the one with HOTU should recreate evertyhing again). Phoenix or Spectre may be aspect of God, but THOTU, like it showed, was all God power, absolute power, that is why I said, tapping into God power is beyond being an aspect, whole is more than part.
Marvel clearly showed THOTU was beyond anything, so I think they also meant beyond Phoenix.

That made no sense. What you dont seem to understand is that Spectre IS God. An aspect isnt a seperate entity with a portion of Gods power. It is just a different side of God made manifest. Spectre is God. In a crossover TOAA and Presence are one and the same. Therefore if Spectre has jurisdiction to stop Thanos who is just tapping into Gods power then of course he can. Its his power for christs sake and Thanos is misusing it. An aspect is God its a different side of the same coin. Thats what im trying to get through to you so saying tapping into gods power is beyond an aspect really doesnt make sense. Any aspect of god with jurisdiction could defeat Thanos or anyone with HOTU.

On top of that you dont know if HOTU was all of Gods power or a measure of it. Do you really think the supreme being would make his power in its totality so easily accessible? Come on XP.

The comic showed that Gods power is beyond all, beyond his servants such as LT for definite but beyond aspects definitely not.



Originally posted by Xplosive
Forget feats, HOTU was part of the Marvel only for few issues, so how to have such feats. Phoenix is someone that we will always see.
But you know why we wont see HOTU ever again, cause its far too much to be brought back again, it would be meaningless to have HOTU again.

Precisely. It has few showings and all we know for definite is that its a power beyond LT. Anything else is speculation and unfounded opinion. All it did on panel we know Phoenix is capable as has been shown on panel. Theres no denying that. Thats all im saying.

Originally posted by Warmonger
Thanos wasn't tapping inot God's power he was God. If you read the end you will see that God had set Thanos up to take over his jobe because all of theMultiverse was unraviling. Lt judges multiple realities if Thanos wiped him out with a mrere thought then he is as powerfull as the TOAA because TOAA abidcated his position to Thanos.

Incorrect. That was Thanos speculating on the matter. Do you really think the supreme being would make his power in its totality so accessible?

If the feat could be achieved through Gods power why didnt TOAA do it himself? Read The End again and you will see it was Thanos' take on events. Either way Spectre IS God. By the conditions of this thread God wants Thanos stopped. Under those conditions Spectre wins. Any aspect acting within its role is unstoppable.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That made no sense. What you dont seem to understand is that Spectre IS God. An aspect isnt a seperate entity with a portion of Gods power. It is just a different side of God made manifest. Spectre is God. In a crossover TOAA and Presence are one and the same. Therefore if Spectre has jurisdiction to stop Thanos who is just tapping into Gods power then of course he can. Its his power for christs sake and Thanos is misusing it. An aspect is God its a different side of the same coin. Thats what im trying to get through to you so saying tapping into gods power is beyond an aspect really doesnt make sense. Any aspect of god with jurisdiction could defeat Thanos or anyone with HOTU.


How can be Spectre a God, I mean when Lucifer told him to move, he moved, like he was scared of Lucifer. Spectre also doenst have all the power of God.


On top of that you dont know if HOTU was all of Gods power or a measure of it. Do you really think the supreme being would make his power in its totality so easily accessible? Come on XP.

The comic showed that Gods power is beyond all, beyond his servants such as LT for definite but beyond aspects definitely not.

Precisely. It has few showings and all we know for definite is that its a power beyond LT. Anything else is speculation and unfounded opinion. All it did on panel we know Phoenix is capable as has been shown on panel. Theres no denying that. Thats all im saying.

Easiliy accesible or not, he had seemignly absolute power and it was simply said, he was God.
GS, in that time it was thought Phoenix is not an aspect and it was thought its bellow LT, no, also bellow other abstract such as Eternitiy....
Only way to solve this, it would be to ask Marvel, who would be more powerful, and that is it. We can only speculate. I still think that THOTU would make a joke out of Phoenix. And you were saying alone that Phoenix is an aspect, not all God power. You give comparison, like God and Phoenix its part, like finger lets say. That is why I said whole is beyond part.

Isnt Spectre a fallen angel, who is actully powered by God.

Originally posted by ImmortalOne
The HOTU = LT ............... IMO !!!

You have the answer in The End.

Originally posted by Xplosive
How can be Spectre a God, I mean when Lucifer told him to move, he moved, like he was scared of Lucifer. Spectre also doenst have all the power of God.

When that was written Spectre was a fallen angel who acted as the spirit of vengeance as a way to atone for his sins. On top of that Lucifer is gods favourite anyway is he really going to exact his power on his son?



Originally posted by Xplosive
Easiliy accesible or not, he had seemignly absolute power and it was simply said, he was God.
GS, in that time it was thought Phoenix is not an aspect and it was thought its bellow LT, no, also bellow other abstract such as Eternitiy....
Only way to solve this, it would be to ask Marvel, who would be more powerful, and that is it. We can only speculate. I still think that THOTU would make a joke out of Phoenix. And you were saying alone that Phoenix is an aspect, not all God power. You give comparison, like God and Phoenix its part, like finger lets say. That is why I said whole is beyond part.

The End came out in 2004 didnt it so New X-men had already come out so Phoenix wasnt written as just another cosmic entity but was linked with God as per the original concept. An aspect is a side of God. But its still God with his power. Aspects carry out specific tasks and have a certain role. Phoenix is the creation aspect. Spectre is the gods wrath. Just another side of the same coin.

The only speculation here is that HOTU was gods power in its totality as opposed to a measure of it. Dont you understand that if Thanos is tapping into Gods power and then Spectre with jurisdiction comes in to stop him then of course he will win. Spectre is god. With jurisdiction aspects are unstoppable.

Originally posted by Xplosive
Isnt Spectre a fallen angel, who is actully powered by God.





That got retconned apparently.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Incorrect. That was Thanos speculating on the matter. Do you really think the supreme being would make his power in its totality so accessible?

If the feat could be achieved through Gods power why didnt TOAA do it himself? Read The End again and you will see it was Thanos' take on events.

So isn't that also just speculation on your part?

Originally posted by Warmonger
So isn't that also just speculation on your part?

How so? Thanos was speculating on the events he didnt know for certain. It was a monologue we had access to Thanos' thoughts so that was made quite clear.

Thanos couldnt stop the multiverse from unravelling via his power. Surely if he had become TOAA he would have been able to?

As i said before all we know is that Thanos tapped into a power which placed him above LT. Anything beyond that is speculation.

As gods power whatever the measure if God comes in to take the power away in his Spectre guise then of course he can. Thats all this comes down to. Spectre IS god a different side of the same coin. His vengeance aspect. God wants Thanos stopped so Spectre can do it. It is gods power in the first place after all. Whats there to debate here?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm

The End came out in 2004 didnt it so New X-men had already come out so Phoenix wasnt written as just another cosmic entity but was linked with God as per the original concept. An aspect is a side of God. But its still God with his power. Aspects carry out specific tasks and have a certain role. Phoenix is the creation aspect. Spectre is the gods wrath. Just another side of the same coin.

The only speculation here is that HOTU was gods power in its totality as opposed to a measure of it. Dont you understand that if Thanos is tapping into Gods power and then Spectre with jurisdiction comes in to stop him then of course he will win. Spectre is god. With jurisdiction aspects are unstoppable.

I dont agree not even a little with you here. LT was said by Thanos, the most powerful. I only see THOTU crushin Spectre and Phoenix at the same time.
God alone will have to come to stop THOTU. All what was clear in The End, was that it was shown THOTU presented as the greatest power ever in Marvel, it was quite clear.
You know GS that I agree with you about Phoenix in particulary almost everything and many times supported you, you theoories, actully facts. But I am taking THOTU here, just because Marvel clearly showed it.

Thanos wins.

Spectre = Presence? Bullsh!t.

Presence = TOAA = Spectre? Bullsh!t.

Presence =TOAA
Lucifer = HOTU
Spectre = Living Tribunal

That's more like it.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
Lucifer = HOTU


THOTU would make a joke out of Lucifer.

Originally posted by Xplosive
THOTU would make a joke out of Lucifer.

I kind of agree with you.

Lucifer is one smart bastard though. He has a better chance of talking Thanos into giving up THOTU.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
Lucifer is one smart bastard though. He has a better chance of talking Thanos into giving up THOTU.

You know, actully maybe, but its Thanos, but that would be actully his only chance.

Lucifer would make Thanos look like a down syndromed fetus.

The Spectre is not a aspect of God, he is a fallen angel transformed by The Presence so that he will work according to how Gods Wrath is suppose to act. The Spectre gets his power from The Spectre Force, the Spectre Force's power is connected with The Logoz/The Word GOD (Jesus in the real world and probably in DC as well). in DOV a girl took The Spectres power "The Spectre Force" away from him for a short time. She could only have his powers for a short time. Even after a short time of her having his powers they was beginning to slip away from her and back to him and while that was happening he was putting borders up so it couldn't happen again.

The Spectre still wins, hes been alive longer then almost any other beings in the universe and hes fought probably alot more then Thanos as well and bigger dangers then him (someone say The Great Beast? )

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
It's debatable. Who's to say the power the Heart of The Universe is weaker than Spectre? Only your opinions. Everything is just an opinion. Did you read THE END saga Immortal One? Did you see what Thanos did to Living Tribunal, Infinity, Eternity, The Celestials, Etc???



LT and Spectre should be around the same power levels. LT patrols the Multiverse same as Spectre.



How can LT be equal to Thanos with the HOTU?

Your scenario on the other hand could very well happen though. Spectre could try to show Thanos the future if he wants to. That could cause him to give up the HOTU... But not likely. He's not the Messiah of the Marvel Universe. Warlock is.

So according to your logic plus my logic/theory,

Thanos with HOTU > Spectre Powered by Presence = Living Tribunal > Phoenix Force

Yup. That's the way I see it.

See this pic?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v345/sifu1/MU_THE_END_1.jpg

Thanos took everyone out in that pic. Blacked out the whole damn Multiverse. Then recreated it.

Originally posted by kevdude
The Spectre is not a aspect of God, he is a fallen angel transformed by The Presence so that he will work according to how Gods Wrath is suppose to act. The Spectre gets his power from The Spectre Force, the Spectre Force's power is connected with The Logoz/The Word GOD (Jesus in the real world and probably in DC as well). in DOV a girl took The Spectres power "The Spectre Force" away from him for a short time. She could only have his powers for a short time. Even after a short time of her having his powers they was beginning to slip away from her and back to him and while that was happening he was putting borders up so it couldn't happen again.

The Spectre still wins, hes been alive longer then almost any other beings in the universe and hes fought probably alot more then Thanos as well and bigger dangers then him (someone say The Great Beast? )

Heart of the Universe will nullify Spectre's experience.

It will become obsolete.

heres the deal people the tribunal and spectre are equal. The picture above shows thanos above the tribunal so therofore above spectre. the picture says it all theres no arguing with the picture. Problem solved no more debate.

Originally posted by kevdude
The Spectre is not a aspect of God, he is a fallen angel transformed by The Presence so that he will work according to how Gods Wrath is suppose to act. The Spectre gets his power from The Spectre Force, the Spectre Force's power is connected with The Logoz/The Word GOD (Jesus in the real world and probably in DC as well). in DOV a girl took The Spectres power "The Spectre Force" away from him for a short time. She could only have his powers for a short time. Even after a short time of her having his powers they was beginning to slip away from her and back to him and while that was happening he was putting borders up so it couldn't happen again.

The Spectre still wins, hes been alive longer then almost any other beings in the universe and hes fought probably alot more then Thanos as well and bigger dangers then him (someone say The Great Beast? )

A few months ago i was saying all of that fallen angel stuff but then
Juntai pointed me to a Spectre issue where it apparrently states that Spectre is the Logoz. I have yet to get hold of it but is that true or is it just that the Spectre is derived from the Logoz?

My stance on this depends on your answer so make it good lol.

Thanos w/ HOTU.

In GL Rebirth # 3, The Spectre is talking to Hal Jordan about Parallax. Here is some of what he said that proves hes not a aspect of God but a being used by God. The Spectre "I hoped by binding to your infected being. That I would have the ability to burn out this parallax like a disease. To Cast Vengeance upon it for all of the Death and Fear it spread throughout GOD'S Universe." The Last sentence says what??? that The Spectre is trying to cast vengeance upon it for everything its done. Hal was not about Vengeance he was about Redemption. to answer the question, that is only 1 instance where The Spectre talks about God as if he is another being NOT The Spectre being a aspect of God.

If you would like to look into The Spectre's history here is a site to do so, it also says in it how The Spectre works with The Spectre Force even when Jim was the Spectre. The Spectres old name was Aztar, he was renamed The Spectre because it fit with him using The Spectre Force... Before The Spectre(Aztar) was the Wrath of God , Eclipso was the Wrath of God and he used The Spectre Force but his name never changed it remained Eclipso..
http://www.dcuguide.com/profile.php?name=spectre

The Spectre is still a fallen angel who is serving God as his Wrath. He can even be killed but thats never happened (and probably won't ever happen unless God wants it to), often a few times hes had very big battles like the Anti-Monitor or Captian Marvel powered up with every DC Earth magic user.

So most of us are in agreement, then I take it? A Precense powered Spectre is basically an extension of The Precense Himself and would thus nullify Thanos with the HOTU, right?

Great debates guys, seriously.

Originally posted by kevdude
In GL Rebirth # 3, The Spectre is talking to Hal Jordan about Parallax. Here is some of what he said that proves hes not a aspect of God but a being used by God. The Spectre "I hoped by binding to your infected being. That I would have the ability to burn out this parallax like a disease. To Cast Vengeance upon it for all of the Death and Fear it spread throughout GOD'S Universe." The Last sentence says what??? that The Spectre is trying to cast vengeance upon it for everything its done. Hal was not about Vengeance he was about Redemption. to answer the question, that is only 1 instance where The Spectre talks about God as if he is another being NOT The Spectre being a aspect of God.

If you would like to look into The Spectre's history here is a site to do so, it also says in it how The Spectre works with The Spectre Force even when Jim was the Spectre. The Spectres old name was Aztar, he was renamed The Spectre because it fit with him using The Spectre Force... Before The Spectre(Aztar) was the Wrath of God , Eclipso was the Wrath of God and he used The Spectre Force but his name never changed it remained Eclipso..
http://www.dcuguide.com/profile.php?name=spectre

The Spectre is still a fallen angel who is serving God as his Wrath. He can even be killed but thats never happened (and probably won't ever happen unless God wants it to), often a few times hes had very big battles like the Anti-Monitor or Captian Marvel powered up with every DC Earth magic user.

Juntai i really dont know what to think. Are you sure the Spectre Force isnt merely derived from the Logoz as opposed to actually being the sum total of it?

I'm positive. Spectre is the Logoz, a piece of God.

Spectre series 4 issue 4, page 12 and 13, a giant splash, the Spectre identifies itself as Logoz, a "Piece of God itself". And that "The Wrath" is all just what the multiverse percieves it as.

"I have not changed Hal -- you have! FOr at last you believe to the core of your being that there is hope... for yourself and the children of Earth. And in believing you have freed me from the tyranny of man's projections."

Hal: "This is your true face?"

"As best you can percieve it."

Hal: "Not a demon at all, you're a. . . a . . piece of God itself."


Then on page 14, for further backup..

"For far too long I have reflected darkness in the human heart. I have been everything they wanted me to be. For the moment at least, your belief has pierced the viel of The Wrath and revealed THE LOGOZ that lies beneath! But do you have the courage to continue seeing me this way? To overide the consesus of reality and embrace the possibilities of what you... what we... what the world...can become?"

Originally posted by BobbyD
So most of us are in agreement, then I take it? A Precense powered Spectre is basically an extension of The Precense Himself and would thus nullify Thanos with the HOTU, right?

Great debates guys, seriously.

So what is the HOTU? Is that not in some form an extension of TOAA? I mean, it's basically his power. Thanos with the HOTU is basically an Eternal powered by the TOAA. What's the difference? Because Spectre is an aspect of the Presence/Logoz? Kevdude says he's still a fallen angel who is powered by god? What's the difference?

Thanos wiped everything out of the Multiverse. Only reason why Warlock was still there, because Warlock exists outside of Chaos and Order, and was not in the Multiverse at the time. He was babysitting.

What if the TOAA doesn't want the HOTU to be taken away from Thanos? What if the TOAA doesn't want Spectre to nullify Thanos with HOTU? Is it not the same? Can the will of one god triumph another?

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
So what is the HOTU? Is that not in some form an extension of TOAA? I mean, it's basically his power. Thanos with the HOTU is basically an Eternal powered by the TOAA. What's the difference? Because Spectre is an aspect of the Presence/Logoz? Kevdude says he's still a fallen angel who is powered by god? What's the difference?

Thanos wiped everything out of the Multiverse. Only reason why Warlock was still there, because Warlock exists outside of Chaos and Order, and was not in the Multiverse at the time. He was babysitting.

What if the TOAA doesn't want the HOTU to be taken away from Thanos? What if the TOAA doesn't want Spectre to nullify Thanos with HOTU? Is it not the same? Can the will of one god triumph another? One would assume that a being that is directly a piece of God itself is far more limitless than one merely tapping the power.


And he's not a fallen angel..
I just disproved that.

Spectre wins this if he has a direct order from God himself as the thread creator intended.
No item is going to defy the will of god.

What if TOAA wills the HOTU not to be taken away by Spectre? Can the will of one god triumph over another? Wouldn't that lead to a clash between the TOAA and The Presence or Yahweh or Logoz or whatever the name of DC's supreme being is?

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
So what is the HOTU? Is that not in some form an extension of TOAA? I mean, it's basically his power. Thanos with the HOTU is basically an Eternal powered by the TOAA. What's the difference? Because Spectre is an aspect of the Presence/Logoz? Kevdude says he's still a fallen angel who is powered by god? What's the difference?

Thanos wiped everything out of the Multiverse. Only reason why Warlock was still there, because Warlock exists outside of Chaos and Order, and was not in the Multiverse at the time. He was babysitting.

What if the TOAA doesn't want the HOTU to be taken away from Thanos? What if the TOAA doesn't want Spectre to nullify Thanos with HOTU? Is it not the same? Can the will of one god triumph another?

The HOTU only ever affected one reality, it ended one universe:

http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/3885/theend0612tato7ax.jpg

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
What if TOAA wills the HOTU not to be taken away by Spectre? Can the will of one god triumph over another? Wouldn't that lead to a clash between the TOAA and The Presence or Yahweh or Logoz or whatever the name of DC's supreme being is?

It would be a stalemate since its 2 opposing sides of the same thing.
Unfortunately, the thread starter just said Presence gives Spectre the nod, not Thanos.

Had it been the other way around, I would have voted Thanos.

Originally posted by Adam Warlock
What if TOAA wills the HOTU not to be taken away by Spectre? Can the will of one god triumph over another? Wouldn't that lead to a clash between the TOAA and The Presence or Yahweh or Logoz or whatever the name of DC's supreme being is? It's irrelivent because it's not the case as it wasn't stated to be this way by the creator of the thread. This is someone tapping vast energies of god vs a piece of god itself with the backing of other aspects as well.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The HOTU only ever affected one reality, it ended one universe:
Did my posts clear up that misunderstanding for you GS?

Originally posted by Juntai
Did my posts clear up that misunderstanding for you GS?

I believe so.

Guys, I even included TOAA in the initial thread, if you go back to look. Besides, why would someone makes a thread where The Presence gives one order and TOAA gives another? They are one and The Same Being.

It makes no difference if I said TOAA told Spectre to take stop Thanos with the HOTU. I merely said The Presence to keep it DCwise, and not confuse people.

In The Spectre history he is still a fallen Angel that is true. The Presence trasformed him into a being that has a connection with The Logos/The Word/GOD/Jesus. If a person wants vengeance then that is what The Spectre is used for, if the person wants redemption that is what The Spectre is used for. Its all about what the Host wants to do and how they both get along on there mission. There isn't really much left of the Fallen Angel Aztar because The Presence erased everything that was that Angel understand?? He isn't really the fallen angel anymore but he still has that backround and history. Hope that clears it up .

Originally posted by kevdude
In The Spectre history he is still a fallen Angel that is true. The Presence trasformed him into a being that has a connection with The Logos/The Word/GOD/Jesus. If a person wants vengeance then that is what The Spectre is used for, if the person wants redemption that is what The Spectre is used for. Its all about what the Host wants to do and how they both get along on there mission. There isn't really much left of the Fallen Angel Aztar because The Presence erased everything that was that Angel understand?? He isn't really the fallen angel anymore but he still has that backround and history. Hope that clears it up . No it doesn't clear anything up, it's called retcon. Hal saw past The Wrath and found The Logoz. They have made no mention of him being a fallen angel since way back in the early days of Spectre.

Spectre series 4 issue 4, page 12 and 13, a giant splash, the Spectre identifies itself as Logoz, a "Piece of God itself". And that "The Wrath" is all just what the multiverse percieves it as.


"I have not changed Hal -- you have! FOr at last you believe to the core of your being that there is hope... for yourself and the children of Earth. And in believing you have freed me from the tyranny of man's projections."

Hal: "This is your true face?"

"As best you can percieve it."

Hal: "Not a demon at all, you're a. . . a . . piece of God itself."


Then on page 14, for further backup..

"For far too long I have reflected darkness in the human heart. I have been everything they wanted me to be. For the moment at least, your belief has pierced the viel of The Wrath and revealed THE LOGOZ that lies beneath! But do you have the courage to continue seeing me this way? To overide the consesus of reality and embrace the possibilities of what you... what we... what the world...can become?"

Im not really disagreeing with you at all Juntai, im really agreeing but there is more to The Spectre then what you aren't looking at. The Spectre was recreated by The Presence to have a special connection with The Logoz. Its true he isn't the Fallen Angel no more but he still has that history (sorta like someone being hit by a car and not remembering who u are and what u are and then its like ur a hole new person for u).

The Spectre himself can be killed, but that takes ALOT of punishment fot that to happen.. In 1 of the last Hal/Spectre books it shows Sinestro fighting The Spectre and The Spectre says he works for GOD! He is not a aspect of God but shares a very close relationship with him.

Originally posted by kevdude
Im not really disagreeing with you at all Juntai, im really agreeing but there is more to The Spectre then what you aren't looking at. The Spectre was recreated by The Presence to have a special connection with The Logoz. Its true he isn't the Fallen Angel no more but he still has that history (sorta like someone being hit by a car and not remembering who u are and what u are and then its like ur a hole new person for u).

The Spectre himself can be killed, but that takes ALOT of punishment fot that to happen.. In 1 of the last Hal/Spectre books it shows Sinestro fighting The Spectre and The Spectre says he works for GOD! He is not a aspect of God but shares a very close relationship with him. HAL says he works for God, not Spectre.
That's what you're not getting.


I've already posted canon evidence that Spectre is a piece of God. And even moreso in Spectre's series, as he discovers more about The Logoz and Spectre through the story he finds that Spectre is the face of god to all races across the universe.. and those that have multiple, he was shown to be the highest order of life and death, such as Kali, Osiris.
And he's on many occasions proven himself to be the mightest in the multiverse.. he defeated Paralax.. he defeated the anti-monitor... he's recreated the universe himself multiple times.