who are alpha level mutants?

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wolverine8888
alpha level mutants are either the highest level or seconbd highest level of mutants. so who are the alpha level mutants? list them please.

Disappear
alphas are considered to be the "strong" mutants, those who apocalypse would deem fit to survive in his world. they rank above beta level mutants, who have no real definition. i could be inferred that betas are the weak, and possibly subconscious mutations, such as cypher or ugly john. however, i believe forge is a confirmed alpha, so that might discredit the "all subconscious mutations are beta-level" theory.

apocalypse's twelve were alphas all, with the exceptions of jean grey and iceman, who are omegas. that includes cyclops, cable, magneto, polaris, sunfire, storm, the living monolith, etc. considering that there are possibilities/theories circulating that storm may be an omega (from a "possible future"/illusion seen during the twelve,) and some others showing possible "omega" traits, it's unknown if alpha and omega are truly separate designations. the omega classification is on a level separate from the alpha-beta classification system, apparently, and omegas cannot be judged on the same terms as alphas and betas. the generally accepted heirarchy is that alphas are stronger, or more fit to survive, than betas, and that omegas are beyond that classification system entirely... it's complicated.

other confirmed alphas are archangel and the beast, who make up the other 2/5s of the original x-men; two of which are omega (bobby and jean,) and three of which are alphas (scott, warren and hank.)

other mutants who would easily be considered alphas are apocalypse, xavier, gambit, rogue, as well as various other x-men and members of x-related teams.

wolverine8888
I see but who are the best known alpha and most dangrous? in AoA seeing how it realy the only time they put mutants into catorgories. also I mean the top 4

Disappear
mutants have been classified in the 616 universe by such agents as apocalypse, xavier himself, the shi'ar, and even sentinels. the AoA was not the only time mutants were designated into groups. in fact, in the AoA, apocalypse used the terms "chosen" and "forgotten," as opposed to alpha and beta, when referring to various mutants.

i already listed a handful of alpha-level mutants. their "danger levels" would certainly be dependent more on who they are than the "alphaness" of their powers. beast is an alpha who can cause destruction via his superhuman strength and stamina, but havok can unleash his energy to create the same levels of destruction in different ways. classifying who are and are not dangerous, or scaling them in any way, is a largely subjective argument.

wolverine8888
I know that wolverine and magneto were listed as two of the most dangerous alpha out there. actauly for apoc he listed them as his most dangerous.

Disappear
i doubt wolverine was listed as one of the "most dangerous" simply due to his mutation, though. he wasn't born to be as unbreakable as he is, and though his mutation does enhance his "feral instincts," it's hardly to credit for his impartial view on killing and spreading destruction. were wolverine to have relied solely on his mutation throughout his life, as opposed to having his life so "effed up" by weapon x and that crap, he'd likely be no more "dangerous" than beast, a man with relatively average superheroing experience and a similar mutation.

and, if you could point out where poccy mentioned wolverine as one of the "most dangerous," i'd love to know. not a big fan of people just saying things or manufacturing history without evidence.

Phoenix_Avatar9
i think X and Mags were said to be THE most powerful alphas, and i thought beast and angel were betas b/c their powers were fairly static and normal, like just a physical mutation, but im might be wrong

Disappear
i believe it was made mention in x-men: forever that the original team was made up of three alphas and two omegas. also, apocalypse referred to angel as "fit to survive" as he made him into archangel, and beast may have been directly mentioned by a non-xavier source elsewhere through history.

and, again, judging mutations as "dangerous" is too subjective to be scientific. for example, xavier and magneto might be some of the most practiced, most powerful mutants on the planet, but archangel's powers would be far more powerful in the hands of a madman than xavier's in the hands of a peacenik.

wolverine8888
Originally posted by Disappear
i doubt wolverine was listed as one of the "most dangerous" simply due to his mutation, though. he wasn't born to be as unbreakable as he is, and though his mutation does enhance his "feral instincts," it's hardly to credit for his impartial view on killing and spreading destruction. were wolverine to have relied solely on his mutation throughout his life, as opposed to having his life so "effed up" by weapon x and that crap, he'd likely be no more "dangerous" than beast, a man with relatively average superheroing experience and a similar mutation.

and, if you could point out where poccy mentioned wolverine as one of the "most dangerous," i'd love to know. not a big fan of people just saying things or manufacturing history without evidence.

sorry I do not. but yes I have one that states him as a alpha level mutant and a very well known one as that. I actauly do not own many AoA I never had enough money to get that and the normal unverse comics. wolverine bone claws would still be far more dangerous then beast by the way. also I think beats and angel were realy only betas but I could be wrong. wolverines healing factor is a defensive power but still amzaingly powerful. also wolverine is the most deadly and dangerous muntant on the planet in NU which I can state form comics if u like.

Disappear
what makes wolverine more deadly than, say, havok? mutation-wise, absolutely nothing. havok's powers have disintegrated dams; while wolverine's x-gene only gives him enough destructive power to maim or kill a few persons at a time. judging mutations, particularly alphas, as destructive or deadly is SUBJECTIVE, and thus non-scientific. judging mutants individually, not simply by mutation (as was the purpose of this thread,) is far more scientific, as it can include facts not linked to genetics.

also, i know wolverine is an alpha level mutant. i purposefully neglected mentioning him in my posts simply because, as your screenname suggests, this thread would've turned into "wolverine's the best alpha." but it did anyway, so i guess my efforts were for nothing. any canon examples stating wolverine being the "most dangerous" clearly are not based solely around genetics, and likely include hyperbole.

bone claws are no more dangerous that typical claws, especially in this instance if you were to consider what levels of superhuman strength beast has to put behind his claws.

and beast and angel are ALPHAS. confirmed.

wolverine8888
K I never said due to there powers lol. strickly power wise wolverine would be one of the top defense alpha and havok would be one of the top attack alpha. no ur right training and such is what makes the person dangerous not his powers. actauly wolverines bone claws are far denser then normal humans they go right throu metal. but thats besides the piont. hey would jubilee be a alpha?

xmarksthespot
In AoA the greek letter classification didn't really take much into account - all the main character X-Men were basically just classified as Alphas because they were main story characters. They were "the strong" fighting against Apocalypse.

I concur "the most dangerous" thing is pure hyperbole.

Disappear
never seen wolvie's bone claws do anything but leave marks on soft metals, not once puncturing anything beast's claws couldn't. (beasts claws can score metals, too, by the way.) and wolvie's bone claws have been snapped off many times with relatively weak strength applied perpendicular to the length of the claws. i don't recall beast ever mentioning "chipping a nail."

wolverine8888
all the times wolverines claws broke were from either hulk. sabertooth who used adamantium claws or cyber who used adamantium claws. also wolverine boen claws have gone through metal a bunch of times just like when he ripped open the ice box he was in well training to be mroe human again.

Disappear
perhaps. but beast can punch through brick walls. he can twist metal rods into pretzels. and, on top of that, he can lift a reported 75 tons. logan has "enhanced human" strength. find a way to mathematically make wolverine's claws more "deadly" than beast's.

wolverine8888
by the way were ever u get that beast lift 75 tons is dead wrong lol. yes he been up graded but his strength did not go from 2 tons to 75 tons buddy. also wolverine using the claws make a big diffrence then beast using them lol.

RisingStorm
Hi Disappear, you seem to be very knowledgeable about this, and I just want to ask why Angel is considered alpha? I mean not based on the storyline, but scientifically? Sorry, since I was shunned with buying comics since all the comic stores within the 5,000 Kilometers range went bankrupt, I can't seem to find a "common" sense explanation why he is considered alpha...can you please explain why? I'm interested. Thanks!

Disappear
actually, beast's original strength was 1500 pounds. as far back as, i believe, x-factor issue 30-something, after one of beast's many manipulations, he was meant to have class 75 strength. but, considering the 80s get ignored very often in current continuity, hank's strength levels have fluctuated through the various comics he's been in.

warren's likely considered an alpha because a) his mutation provides him with various superhuman abilities (strength, sight, agility, flight, etc.) and b) because apocalypse only looks upon alphas with a smile, and he was a big fan of worthington just prior to his "transition" to archangel. scientifically, there's really no definition for alphas, besides being superior to betas and being "fit to survive" in apocalypse's wasteland utopia. but since warren's twice confirmed, at least, that's my best guess as to what exactly designates him an alpha.

willRules
wow you were right disappear this has turned into another wolverine thread................

wolverine8888
Originally posted by Disappear
actually, beast's original strength was 1500 pounds. as far back as, i believe, x-factor issue 30-something, after one of beast's many manipulations, he was meant to have class 75 strength. but, considering the 80s get ignored very often in current continuity, hank's strength levels have fluctuated through the various comics he's been in.

warren's likely considered an alpha because a) his mutation provides him with various superhuman abilities (strength, sight, agility, flight, etc.) and b) because apocalypse only looks upon alphas with a smile, and he was a big fan of worthington just prior to his "transition" to archangel. scientifically, there's really no definition for alphas, besides being superior to betas and being "fit to survive" in apocalypse's wasteland utopia. but since warren's twice confirmed, at least, that's my best guess as to what exactly designates him an alpha.
actauly thats not true at all warren has no super strength. his wings posses a little bit allowing him to carry twice his own body weight but thats it. also agility is due to flying on the ground he ahs no superhuman agility what so ever.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by wolverine8888
actauly thats not true at all warren has no super strength. his wings posses a little bit allowing him to carry twice his own body weight but thats it. also agility is due to flying on the ground he ahs no superhuman agility what so ever.

Hes sort of got this bit right guys. wink

wannabe
Who cares???
So it's just flight, slightly superhuman strength level wings, peak human physical attributes (virtually no body fat but optimum muscles), enhanced sight, extreme cold resistance, super human lung capacity and use of air-oxygen, a healing factor nearly on par with Logan's, the ability to heal others...

hotsauce6548
Originally posted by wannabe
Who cares???
So it's just flight, slightly superhuman strength level wings, peak human physical attributes (virtually no body fat but optimum muscles), enhanced sight, extreme cold resistance, super human lung capacity and use of air-oxygen, a healing factor nearly on par with Logan's, the ability to heal others...

Precisely. Alpha level, no doubt.

Plus, as Disappear has previosly mentioned, Apocalypse was extremely confident in Angel's ability to 'survive' before his transformation to Archangel.

wolverine8888
Originally posted by wannabe
Who cares???
So it's just flight, slightly superhuman strength level wings, peak human physical attributes (virtually no body fat but optimum muscles), enhanced sight, extreme cold resistance, super human lung capacity and use of air-oxygen, a healing factor nearly on par with Logan's, the ability to heal others...
he has near peak human attribtues.
also his healing near par with wolverines in a joke.
his healing is good but not any were near wolverines good

hotsauce6548
Originally posted by wolverine8888
he has near peak human attribtues.
also his healing near par with wolverines in a joke.
his healing is good but not any were near wolverines good

But you also must take into consideration his ability to heal other people. erm

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by wolverine8888
he has near peak human attribtues.
also his healing near par with wolverines in a joke.
his healing is good but not any were near wolverines good If you took a little time to clean up your spelling and grammar, it would be a lot harder to not take you seriously. However as it stands...Originally posted by hotsauce6548
But you also must take into consideration his ability to heal other people. erm An abundance of powers as well as quality powers.

wannabe
Originally posted by wolverine8888
he has near peak human attribtues.
also his healing near par with wolverines in a joke.
his healing is good but not any were near wolverines good 1) Boy, your spelling is a mess...even i, a non native speaker, can't oversee this!!!

2) I'm classifying Warren's healing factor not due to publicity of his character, fanboyism or to make Logan's power seem less potent. I do it in using what i see in the comics:
Warren tends to dodge incoming bullets, fists, blasts etc. rather than to dumbly take them like Wolvie, so there are only very few examples of his healing in action we can use for comparison.
The most noticeable I know of, are Warrens healing factor compensating the blood loss of him, supporting SIX dead mutants with blood and Warren taking the hitting and biting of several mutant werewolves, who were able to literally "shredder" Wolverine in no time.

wannabe
2

wannabe
3

wolverine8888
that injuries he took were nuthing to what woolverine has taken and was fine. a couple bullets in angel and he would be dead. u shoot him in the head angel will clearly die. healign others is a lot diffrent then healign ur self. brign up a example of angel ehalign that actauly even come close to wolverines. wolevrien survived a nuke getting his head chopped off. egtting hsi skeleton removed. being hit with many bombs. list goes on and on.

wannabe
Originally posted by wolverine8888
that injuries he took were nuthing to what woolverine has taken and was fine. a couple bullets in angel and he would be dead. u shoot him in the head angel will clearly die. healign others is a lot diffrent then healign ur self. brign up a example of angel ehalign that actauly even come close to wolverines. wolevrien survived a nuke getting his head chopped off. egtting hsi skeleton removed. being hit with many bombs. list goes on and on. Did you even read what i wrote, not to speak of an actual understanding of the content???!!! huh

However, i'm neither here to say that Warrens healing factor is EQUAL or even superior to Logan's nor i'm i here to cure the worst case of fanboyism and dyslexia i ever encountered. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Btw...Icarus, who has EXACTLY the same self healing abilities like Warren, survived a blast right through his chest that burned in a hole of the size of a football, and he survived the continous self stabbing of his heart...severe enough?

PeteButter
Wolverine is overrated. Mr. Sinister would crush him.

xmarksthespot
Look how much nicer your post would have been if you took a little time to clean it up.
Originally posted by wolverine8888
Those injuries he took were nothing compared to what Wolverine has taken and was fine.Is it that hard to read wannabe's post? I mean his are actually legible.
Originally posted by wolverine8888
Wolverine has survived a nuke,Which is generally agreed to be one of the stupidest cases of writer stupidity, in the history of writer stupidity. Besides Draco69 has stated that in the incident that's always referred to apparently it wasn't a nuke, it was napalm.
Originally posted by wolverine8888
getting his head chopped off,This has never been shown on panel, and is highly dubious. As Disappear has been trying to get through to you Wolverine cannot reanimate himself from death.Originally posted by wolverine8888
getting his skeleton removed,What exactly are you referring to here? When Magneto extracted the adamantium that laces his skeleton from his body? Again, having your entire skeleton removed would be a near instantaneous death so unless it was actually shown on panel without ambiguity and not simply referred to it's also highly dubious. Wolverine is neither an immortal nor a "post-mortem regenerate."
Originally posted by wolverine8888
being hit with many bombs andYou just randomly inserted this generic one, I'm sure Wolverine has been hit with "bombs" before, but what kind are you referring to? ICBMs?
Originally posted by wolverine8888
the list goes on and on.Because he's had his healing factor for like 20 years of comics, while Angel has only had his for a few, it's his only major power and the fans just love it when he does something outlandish.

wolverine8888
no I mean he got his whole skeleton ripped out. not what magento did.
also it was a nuke.I know what draco said and I also proved her wrong about it. it stated in the comic that it is infact a nuke. napalm looks much diffrent any ways. again wolverine does not need his brain or heart to heal. it in his cells. I already stated that enough times. so many tiems he has healed from his brainn and heart destroyed. he has been conisder dead many times and healed.

wannabe
Originally posted by wolverine8888
no I mean he got his whole skeleton ripped out. not what magento did. When did that happen??? Issue and/or scan please!
Originally posted by wolverine8888
...also it was a nuke.I know what draco said and I also proved her wrong about it. it stated in the comic that it is infact a nuke. napalm looks much diffrent any ways. again wolverine does not need his brain or heart to heal. it in his cells. I already stated that enough times. so many tiems he has healed from his brainn and heart destroyed. he has been conisder dead many times and healed. OOOHHH GOD!!!
Whether what you say is right or not (unfortunately you're always just proclaiming, almost never proving), you are probably the purest, most untainted example of a fanboy imaginable!!! laughing

Disappear
by the way, for the sake of drudging up my last argument, warren DOES have superhuman strength. the latest series of excalibur (issue 12, i believe,) is only the most recent source that confirms it. if you want to make an objection against something CANON, it's best to be up-to-date on your material.

wolverine8888
Originally posted by wannabe
When did that happen??? Issue and/or scan please!
OOOHHH GOD!!!
Whether what you say is right or not (unfortunately you're always just proclaiming, almost never proving), you are probably the purest, most untainted example of a fanboy imaginable!!! laughing

ill state a few comic for u im to lazy to state them all.
(venom on the run #3) all thats left after a beam is wolverines bones, he heals from it. also in this same issue he is hit by the nuke. (venom on the run #4) " frankie and vic nuked the small town" that is what the "this leaves only The suit who is not a living thing, and wolverine, whose body regenerates itself" this si what was in the re-cap.
" magneto may have sucked out my adamantium but you pulled out my whole skeleton once!" (x-men unlimited bloodscream the heart of darkness) wolverien survives a castle full of gas blowing up and tehn falling from around 200 feet, to then boucne another 50 or so feet(wolverine blood debt chapter 4)

is this enough evidence for u?

wolverine8888
Originally posted by Disappear
by the way, for the sake of drudging up my last argument, warren DOES have superhuman strength. the latest series of excalibur (issue 12, i believe,) is only the most recent source that confirms it. if you want to make an objection against something CANON, it's best to be up-to-date on your material.

must be very low end seeing how wolverine is a good deal stronger then him.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by wolverine8888
" magneto may have sucked out my adamantium but you pulled out my whole skeleton once!" (x-men unlimited bloodscream the heart of darkness)You're using that comment entirely out of context, it refers to Uncanny X-Men #160. Wolverine did not survive having his skeleton pulled out, Belasco killed Wolverine and kept his skeleton as an ornament - it happened in Illyana's Limbo where time acts strangely, there was another Colossus who was imploded and melted on a wall, another Nightcrawler who was Belasco's slave, another Storm who was a sorceress and another Wolverine who was nothing but a skeleton.

Disappear
wolverine's actually not. a building was collapsing around archangel, husk and viper (if i'm recalling the issue correctly,) and warren catches a chunk of the falling ceiling spread wide enough to have crushed the entire group had he not stopped it. not only that, but he alone was supporting it, as well as the other remnants of the building that fell on top of it. wolverine is stronger than most people, yes, but not stronger than those who apocalypse decided to play god with, and particularly not warren.

hotsauce6548
Why does wolverine8888 insist on proving to everybody he is an illiterate fanboy?

wolverine8888
Originally posted by Disappear
wolverine's actually not. a building was collapsing around archangel, husk and viper (if i'm recalling the issue correctly,) and warren catches a chunk of the falling ceiling spread wide enough to have crushed the entire group had he not stopped it. not only that, but he alone was supporting it, as well as the other remnants of the building that fell on top of it. wolverine is stronger than most people, yes, but not stronger than those who apocalypse decided to play god with, and particularly not warren.

not ever once seen or heard about the issue I realy like to see title and such because form what I seen he no wear near wolverine strength.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by wolverine8888
not ever once seen or heard about the issue I realy like to see title and such because form what I seen he no wear near wolverine strength.

stormfront13
wasn't that also his wings doing the work?

xmarksthespot
Yes, I think his wings are providing stability and possibly easing the weight, but I'd assume his body strength is bracing it for the most part the tons if not tens of tons of mass. Add to that Angel has hollow bones - strong though they are - it is muscular strength that is supporting the weight. I think it's safe to deem that he's very strong and reasonable to say that he's physically stronger than Wolverine.

Disappear
also, warren mentions sometime within the same issue, i believe, how he has strength more than proportionate to that of the strongest predatory birds (enough to fell a grown man with one blow.) considering the sheer difference in size between an owl (the bird i believe was mentioned) and the fact that his strength expands BEYOND the proportionate increase, he's clearly superhuman. and wolverine, sad to say, doesn't have superhuman strength. "enhanced human," no stronger than captain america or the black panther.

stormfront13
i wasn't doubting that he didn't have super-strength, only asking if he was also using his wings. there's a difference between that.

Disappear
nobody said you were. x was just trying to get across that, though the muscles which move his wings have incredible strength to lift and carry aloft almost 700 pounds, warren's "human" frame has considerably superhuman strength, as was the point of the example and this entire argument.

Paola
another use of the word 'fanboy' in an offensive way and I'll be delivering some bannings

Oh! and this belongs in comic section, since we're not talking only about X-Men

stormfront13
Originally posted by Disappear
nobody said you were. x was just trying to get across that, though the muscles which move his wings have incredible strength to lift and carry aloft almost 700 pounds, warren's "human" frame has considerably superhuman strength, as was the point of the example and this entire argument.

well the the fact that you told me everything i already know on his strength, and you also told me he actually had super-strength, one can infer that you meant what i thought. and paola, everyone uses fanboy in an offense matter, i have been called it with an offensive manner too many times to count, and many others have also.

eternitygoddess
Isn't this a thread about 'who are the alpha mutants'? Right now the title 'is Wolverine an alpha mutant' seems more appropriate.

stormfront13
well there's nothing to really discuss, a ton of mutants are alpha, over half. unless htye have been confirmed omega, they are more than likely alpha. then there are mutants that people strongly believe are omegas, but it isn;t confirmed yet...........people like storm, and rachel grey.

GalacticStorm
Archangel doesnt have superhuman strength. Its always been stated in his bios that by using his wings he can lift heavier weights than he could if he tried without them. Its his wings providing the power not his arms. So he doesnt have superhuman strength in th etraditional sense just to clarify. So hand to hand he is NOT stronger than Wolverine.

wannabe
Yet his wings are just as useful and natural limbs of his as everyones arms, in fact they are even more important to him.

Btw...this Angel/Wolvie strength level contest started just with the comment that Warren has peak human physical attributes (among other traits), which makes him alpha and wolverine8888 denied that.
To get back to topic, can we PLEASE reach a consensus about Warrens and Wolvies already confirmed alpha status???!!! sad

DarkCrawler
Ah yes...the bios. Which are always right. roll eyes (sarcastic)

In that pic, it looks like that his hands are doing most the work. With the speeds that he flys, his body must be stronger then normal humans. And the bones too, since they are hollow.

And the wings are a weapon too...a goose can break a man's arm with its wings, what can Archangel do? smile

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Ah yes...the bios. Which are always right. roll eyes (sarcastic)

In that pic, it looks like that his hands are doing most the work. With the speeds that he flys, his body must be stronger then normal humans. And the bones too, since they are hollow.

And the wings are a weapon too...a goose can break a man's arm with its wings, what can Archangel do? smile

Nope his wings are working in addition with his arms to hold up the weight. If that pic showed Warren with his wings folded then you'd have a point about him having superhuman strength in the traditional sense. But he doesnt he has it in wings as has been stated in his bios from his very creation. On top of that this is supported in the scan thats been shown. By using his wings together with his body he can lift superhuman weights. Hand to hand that just isnt the case.

DarkCrawler
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope his wings are working in addition with his arms to hold up the weight. If that pic showed Warren with his wings folded then you'd have a point about him having superhuman strength in the traditional sense. But he doesnt he has it in wings as has been stated in his bios from his very creation. On top of that this is supported in the scan thats been shown. By using his wings together with his body he can lift superhuman weights. Hand to hand that just isnt the case.



He is at least a peak human.

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by DarkCrawler
He is at least a peak human.

Indeed. So we're all agreed that he doesnt have superhuman strength?

Disappear
the term "since his creation" is fundamentally useless at this point, you realize, considering the various manipulations he's gone through in terms of his powers. and, considering he was meant to have above-average strength prior to his advancements by apocalypse, and prior to his life-force nonsense, and prior to his healing blood and all that, there's no good argument that can cite "since his creation" as an applicable point.

aside from that, there's no backing to the "his wings are supporting the weight in that picture" argument, either. were he to be airborne and his wings were the "bracing" force of keeping him in place, the strength of the wings could be used as an argument against his body's physical strength. however, as his wings are spread as a blanket across the stretch of rubble behind him, while his arms, abdomen and legs are all bent into "active" positions (in that the muscles are working, the joints are not locked out, etc,) it's incorrect to say he's no supporting the weight with his body. PARTICULARLY because, in that position, his legs are the "bracing" force upon which all the weight comes down. i could be able to lift several tons with my upper body, but if my lower body was not equally enhanced, i would collapse under the added weight. the same principle applies between warren's wings and his body.

warren's had strength greater than his previous "peak human" levels ever since apocalypse introduced his own cells into the archangel's body. and, considering the next step about "peak human" is, you guessed it, superhuman, warren has superhuman strength. wolverine, by definition, has strength no greater than "peak human," as his muscle tissues would simply heal and operate at "peak" levels at all times.

xmarksthespot
Originally posted by Disappear
PARTICULARLY because, in that position, his legs are the "bracing" force upon which all the weight comes down. i could be able to lift several tons with my upper body, but if my lower body was not equally enhanced, i would collapse under the added weight. the same principle applies between warren's wings and his body.True. And I'll reiterate, Warren's bones are hollow, his strength to lift/brace a structure is derived from musculature rather than from his bones.

wannabe
Originally posted by Disappear
...aside from that, there's no backing to the "his wings are supporting the weight in that picture" argument, either. were he to be airborne and his wings were the "bracing" force of keeping him in place, the strength of the wings could be used as an argument against his body's physical strength. however, as his wings are spread as a blanket across the stretch of rubble behind him, while his arms, abdomen and legs are all bent into "active" positions (in that the muscles are working, the joints are not locked out, etc,) it's incorrect to say he's no supporting the weight with his body. PARTICULARLY because, in that position, his legs are the "bracing" force upon which all the weight comes down. i could be able to lift several tons with my upper body, but if my lower body was not equally enhanced, i would collapse under the added weight. the same principle applies between warren's wings and his body.Finally some common sense here!!! smile
I already wondered when exactly someone would mention the things written in the quote.
I just didn't do it myself, because i've become accused several times lately to use "science"arguments in my debates about comic events.

Disappear
it's not even complicated science. it's just gravity...

Dr.Fate
alpha level mutants that are so underated Multipuleman, Sebastian Shaw and Exodus so close to being Omega just need to develope secondary mutantations

Disappear
you don't evolve from alpha to omega. you're either one or the other. secondary mutations won't change your classification, they'll simply further your intended evolution, be it alpha (example: the beast,) or omega (examples: kid omega and iceman.)

DarkCrawler
Originally posted by Dr.Fate
alpha level mutants that are so underated Multipuleman, Sebastian Shaw and Exodus so close to being Omega just need to develope secondary mutantations

How is Multiple Man close being a omega?

Or Sebastian Shaw?

Enlighten me.

Disappear
they're not. Dr. Fate just doesn't fully understand the concept of an omega-level mutant.

long pig
Shit, I don't fully understand the concept of an Omega-level mutant.

So, it's only those who Apoc likes, or with a wide variety of powers?

Either the concept doesn't mean much, or it's outdated.

Dr.Fate
Okay there not close to being Omega. I thought Omega was just a really powerful mutant. I now know its apparently some kind of mutant that has the potential to be a Phoenix or something like that but hey I get it I was wrong. But still Multipuleman, Sebastian Shaw and Exodus are Alpha right

botcherby
Cyclops and Havok have access to an unlimited source of power, on that whatever plane of energy where they derive their powers from right? they are alphas but could they not be Omegas for the above reason? On similar threads its kinda led to the fact that an Omega is the potential to exist beyond or whatever... anyway thats my 2 cents

I read that information from some Marvel directory on the net.

Disappear
cyclops is confirmed by xavier to NOT have omega-potential in x-men: forever. havok, though sinister agrees his power is greater than scott's, would've been pointed out as an omega by now. he's also been referred to as an alpha, though i cannot for the life of me recall where, and no alpha is an omega. also, both need the sun to exercise their powers. neither can function without exposure to the sun's light or solar radiation, so their power source is hardly "infinite," if you think about it.

King_Mungi
Madison Jeffries and Lionel Jeffries are Omega level mutants. Hell, Lionel puts Elixir to shame with his abilities and he was Omega level

Creshosk
Originally posted by Disappear
it's not even complicated science. it's just gravity... Oh like gravity is really a simple science, ESPECIALLY where comics are involved. stick out tongue

RisingStorm
Originally posted by King_Mungi
Madison Jeffries and Lionel Jeffries are Omega level mutants. Hell, Lionel puts Elixir to shame with his abilities and he was Omega level

Some Alpha mutants can take Omega mutants. Like Elixir for instance, he's pretty powerful, but Cyclop's blast or Storm's lightning would take him. His powers aren't offensive, at least not for now...

And for those whose saying the Summers brothers are Omega, I don't think so. One to be omega must have reach the point to transcend over life. Just like Jean Grey or Bobby who is in ice form forever...

Disappear
cyclops is a confirmed alpha. havok's done nothing to prove himself an omega, his superior (living monolith) is a confirmed omega and was one of the twelve, and he was one of the chosen in the AoA. box and scramble have great powers, but nothing to prove they're omegas. and since omega is meant to be the rarest classification ever, and lionel's dead, and madison's off doing who knows what where nobody cares, i highly doubt anyone would venture to tag them "omegas" at this point...

edit: havok was actually "forgotten" by apocalypse. so there's another strike against that theory.

King_Mungi
Originally posted by RisingStorm
Some Alpha mutants can take Omega mutants. Like Elixir for instance, he's pretty powerful, but Cyclop's blast or Storm's lightning would take him. His powers aren't offensive, at least not for now...



No I mean Lionel Jeffries powers are far stronger than Elixir's. Lionel had the power to transmute flesh and bone, alter one's mind and raise people from the dead. He was on a higher degree than Elixir was.

Oh Earthmover is said to be a omega level equilivant on a mystic magic level.

Originally posted by Disappear
box and scramble have great powers, but nothing to prove they're omegas. and since omega is meant to be the rarest classification ever, and lionel's dead, and madison's off doing who knows what where nobody cares, i highly doubt anyone would venture to tag them "omegas" at this point...


Yes they have, everything Elixir did Lionel did on a much higher degree and had way more versilitlity . Madison just created an entire sentinel army as well as a new master mold in Weapon X: Days of Future Now. They are indeed omega level, wether someone wants to tag them or not.

Disappear
omegas are not defined by power level! lionel could have better powers than elixir's, but that doesn't mean he has the infinite potential of an omega; which foley does. box might be able to do just about anything he could want when it comes to synthetics, but that doesn't make him an omega. mikhail rasputin had all the power he could imagine; still not an omega. cable made himself into a GOD on earth; still not an omega. they might be able to hold their own against certain omegas, but that doesn't make them omegas. i mean, (hypothetically) i might be able to hold my own against kobe on a basketball court, but that doesn't make me black. they're completely separate concepts.

King_Mungi
Not necessarily due to the entire Alpha Flight run they consider the brothers to be very special and very rare. Living Monolith and Cyclops have similar powers but one is stronger than the other. Lionel is stronger than Elixir and can do much more than he can. Box/Madison is up for debate but Lionel is definetly omega calibur.

Madison Jefffries by his own doing destroyed the mutant populance in North America and put humankind in "observation camps". Alpha Flight is truely underated.

Disappear
"omega" is not a caliber based on strength or skill. lionel could turn elixir into a semi-sentient pile of horseshit, and elixir would still be omega while scramble is not.

living monolith and cyclops don't have similar powers, by the way. living monolith and havok do, with LM being the superior mutant, and BOTH are still alpha. xavier's telepathic powers were superior to quentin quire's, but xavier is still an alpha (of his own admission,) while quire is an omega. xavier was also superior to jean grey for the majority of the x-men chronology, despite jean being an omega. the "omega" classification is not based on ability strength at any one point in a mutant's existence, nor on a comparative strength level between any two mutants of any particular classification.

Creshosk
Originally posted by Disappear
"omega" is not a caliber based on strength or skill. lionel could turn elixir into a semi-sentient pile of horseshit, and elixir would still be omega while scramble is not.

living monolith and cyclops don't have similar powers, by the way. living monolith and havok do, with LM being the superior mutant, and BOTH are still alpha. xavier's telepathic powers were superior to quentin quire's, but xavier is still an alpha (of his own admission,) while quire is an omega. xavier was also superior to jean grey for the majority of the x-men chronology, despite jean being an omega. the "omega" classification is not based on ability strength at any one point in a mutant's existence, nor on a comparative strength level between any two mutants of any particular classification. Thank you. smile

That's quite a good post actually.

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