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X-men:

Classic Rogue(Ms Marvel powers)
Storm
Rachel Grey
Cyclops

Vs

F4

Nuff said

Deserted cityscape

No holds barred battle to the death

Who wins? Why?

No holds bared? Ethier rachel mind controls them all, or sue exspands some force-fields in their minds and exsplodes their brains.

Rogue, Cyclops and Storm pose no problem to the likes of the F4, in my opinion.

Rachel Grey, last time I checked (because people do like to give X-Men new updates every week) was some ultra mega psychic/psionic. So probably them, if she's that powerful.

-AC

I agree with AC.

Well...that wasn't much fun.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Rogue, Cyclops and Storm pose no problem to the likes of the F4, in my opinion.

Rachel Grey, last time I checked (because people do like to give X-Men new updates every week) was some ultra mega psychic/psionic. So probably them, if she's that powerful.

-AC

If its that easy then why did the previous F4 Vs Xmen go on for so long. Emma is a powerful telepath as well. Surely she could have done the same thing?

Some people argue that Sue can block out telepathy. Is that true?

Why don't you dig it up and find out?

It ended up becoming a quickdraw contest between Emma and Sue. Emma won.

No.

Her power is teleknetic in nature, but I'm pretty sure she can't block telepathy.

Prehaps Reed could give them something to block it if they had some prep, then I give it to the F4, since rachel's writen as such a noob with her powers for no reason.

Originally posted by demigawd
Why don't you dig it up and find out?

It ended up becoming a quickdraw contest between Emma and Sue. Emma won.

I heard Sue could block tp because of an event in the Onslaught saga. Anyone?

Either way i'll swap Rachel Grey for current Psylocke with TK

What now?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I heard Sue could block tp because of an event in the Onslaught saga. Anyone?

Either way i'll swap Rachel Grey for current Psylocke with TK

What now?

Originally people were saying that Sue could deflect telepathy because she did it to Jean Grey when she emerged from the Phoenix cacoon and she took out the FF and the Avengers by herself until Sue took her down (while Jean was knocking out everybody else). The FF supporters either didn't realize (or were intentionally misleading) that it was the same issue where Jean revealed at the end of it that she'd lost her telepathic powers.

For awhile after, they said that Sue masking her presence from Apocalypse on the Astral Plane was also proof that she could block telepathy. But again, what that turned out to be was Cable masking her mental form and Sue masking her "physical" form on the Astral Plane, because in that issue, your powers worked the same way on the AP as it did in the physical world. So again...no.

Now there are some people who claim that she used telepathy block power against either Psi-Lord or Hyperstorm, but they haven't given any references, described the battle, or posted any scans of her actually blocking some form of telepathic attack. The point gets dropped every time someone asks for specifics. There may yet be proof that she's blocked telepathy there, but until it's provided, the other false examples have shown how misleading Sue supporter's "evidence" really is.

Meanwhile, Emma effortless got through Sue's shield to make a telepathic statement. Scans were posted.

Decide for yourself.

Wow, well that was fast...

Any effective Telepath will rip through the F4 unless Reed has a plan.

Oh, as for what now - without a telepath on the X-men, the fight gets more interesting. But I still give it to the X-men. My guess is that we'll get responses like, "Sue puts everybody in a forcefield and HT goes supernova" or "Sue pierced Galactus' hide" or "Sue destroyed a Celestial", etc.

As long as people will continue saying that mental mutants can operate as fast as they do, it will always be pointless including them.

-AC

Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, as for what now - without a telepath on the X-men, the fight gets more interesting. But I still give it to the X-men. My guess is that we'll get responses like, "Sue puts everybody in a forcefield and HT goes supernova" or "Sue pierced Galactus' hide" or "Sue destroyed a Celestial", etc.

I'm not saying anything about peirceing galactuses hide or killing a celstial (both of which seem farfetched.) But I can't see what's stoping her from making all their heads go "boom"

Sue used her powers of "making invisible things visible" on Onslaught. She has also blocked psionic attacks from Psi-Lord. Reed also has anti telepathy technology that he and the rest of the team use. If all it took to beat the F4 was any old telepath then I'd imagine they'd all be killed by Doom by now.

The sheer magnitude of Rachel's power makes her a threat for any team...she would make it really difficult for the F4 to win this...the other X-Men dont make a huge impact though, like AC said.

BTW when did Emma win the showdown with Sue? Sue knocked her out and made a comment about her powers not being the only one's that travelled at the speed of thought. Emma gave Sue a headache when she was breaking up the scuffle between Thing and Wolverine...thats not really a direct confrontation though because she was already distracted managing the other two.

Originally posted by sam_drugbringer
I'm not saying anything about peirceing galactuses hide or killing a celstial (both of which seem farfetched.) But I can't see what's stoping her from making all their heads go "boom"

I suppose the same thing that prevents the telekinetic on the team from making the FF's hearts stop.

I try to keep things within the context of a character's personality, which means heart-stopping techniques by psionics and nova flames are all out.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Sue used her powers of "making invisible things visible" on Onslaught. She has also blocked psionic attacks from Psi-Lord. Reed also has anti telepathy technology that he and the rest of the team use. If all it took to beat the F4 was any old telepath then I'd imagine they'd all be killed by Doom by now.

The sheer magnitude of Rachel's power makes her a threat for any team...she would make it really difficult for the F4 to win this...the other X-Men dont make a huge impact though, like AC said.

BTW when did Emma win the showdown with Sue? Sue knocked her out and made a comment about her powers not being the only one's that travelled at the speed of thought. Emma gave Sue a headache when she was breaking up the scuffle between Thing and Wolverine...thats not really a direct confrontation though because she was already distracted managing the other two.

I wasn't referring to a comic showndown between Emma and Sue. I was referring to the lengthy debate over who would get the quickdraw out first. Their didn't have a real confrontation in the debate. Emma was talking to Sue and Sue knocked her out. Sue had her shield up and Emma talked to Sue through it, giving her a headache. Neither proves who would win, but it does show that Sue's shields didn't do squat to filter out Emma's "authoratative headache voice", which could have easily been "Emma's "knock you the **** out voice".

Making invisible things visible != telepathy blocking powers.

Which of course leaves us back with the Psi-Lord situation. When and where did this happen? Are there scans? A battle description? Anything? People claim Doom beat Terrax too, and it wasn't until we got scans that we realized that no such thing ever happened.

Originally posted by demigawd
Originally people were saying that Sue could deflect telepathy because she did it to Jean Grey when she emerged from the Phoenix cacoon and she took out the FF and the Avengers by herself until Sue took her down (while Jean was knocking out everybody else). The FF supporters either didn't realize (or were intentionally misleading) that it was the same issue where Jean revealed at the end of it that she'd lost her telepathic powers.
Decide for yourself.

Jean didnt do anything telepathic or fight anyone I'm pretty sure thee avengers were out on a mission it was just the f4 in the avengers mansion and when jean awoke she started making everything float and allthe otheres were helpless excpet sue whos force field blocked out the TK not tp.

I'm pretty sure it included members of the Avengers too. But either way, it was no evidence of telepathic blocking.

NEW TEAM


X-men:

Classic Rogue(Ms Marvel powers)
Storm
Current Psylocke
Cyclops

Vs

F4

Well, I gave my answer to that too.

But I'm going to sit here and wait for Wyndar to finally answer my question.

<<Which of course leaves us back with the Psi-Lord situation. When and where did this happen?>>

you just needed to ask . . .

all scans courtesy of ff #384:

in this first one, she battling franklin who is blasting her with blasts from his armor -- but, his armor is powered by his psionic ability. he actually says:

"Deflect all the psi blasts you want. It won't last."

scan #2 is a very telling scan. here franklin tricks his mom into letting down her force field. sue had been recently injured and so was NOT at 100% in the battle. franklin knows he can't get into her head while she has her force field up so he tells her he is lowering his defenses. sue, who was tiring CLAIMS she is not going to drop her force field, but, because it is invisible, she thinks she CAN drop it and he wouldn't know. but once the field is dropped he reads her thoughts and hits her with a telepathic assault AFTER the field is down.

in this third one, he congratulates himself on finally being able to get into her head. once there, he finds malice has been the one who was making sue acted irrationally in recent issues.

Do you have a bigger scan of the second page? I can't read it.

Looks promising....

and the last one, even INSIDE her head frankling STILL couldn't best her. you can argue that it was malice he was confronting, but sue and malice are one and the same and sue had beaten malice in the past. i could have included a final scan where she tells him as they are locked h2h trying to batter each other:

"Our powers are so evenly matched taht we could be locked in this stalemates forever." but rather than that, she somehow . . . shows him HE is the real danger the ff face. frankly (egads, no pun intended!) i have no idea how she showed him this. ahh, hell with it, i'll scan it next and you can see . . .

anyway, in this scan, she is again deflecting a direct telepathic blast.

here's the scan of the 'final battle'. she somehow (with the assault) gets into his head and shows him that HE is the true danger. not sure how she did it, and i don't think it was ever really explained. seems to indicate a different type of psi power that sue doesn't usually (ever??) show.

<<Do you have a bigger scan of the second page? I can't read it.
Looks promising....>>

here ya go.

And that, there, is the problem with this whole enterprise.

Sue appears to be demonstrating powers she doesn't have. For example - if she had just blocked a telepathic attack and left it at that, I would have said, "ok, fair enough - guess she's done it before" (though I'd be willing to call that PIS). But what really drives the unbelievability of the entire thing up are two things:

1)Franklin was ALREADY in her head, and she was still able to block a psi-attack while keeping him inside her mind? That's impossible - he's inside of her mind. If she had the ability to block a mental attack, it would eject Franklin from her head altogether. It wouldn't prevent him from mentally attacking her while still giving him access to her head. She makes forcefields - either it blocks telepathy, preventing access to her mind altogether, or it doesn't.

2) and even more telling - WTF??? How is Sue able to get inside FRANKLIN'S head? She makes forcefields, and she's showing high level psionic power.

I think we can conclude that there are severe plot device problems at work here (or Malace is supplying additional powers somehow), especially when weighed against the bulk of her showings. Sue is not a telepath - she can't get inside anybody's head and show them anything.

But let me ask you, Leonidas - all things considered, are you willing to conclude that Sue has the ability to block telepathy based on these scans, keeping in mind that last scan you posted? Be honest!

Another thing to conclude from that is that it appeared IW was unable to get through Franklin's telekinetic shields, too.

Originally posted by demigawd
I suppose the same thing that prevents the telekinetic on the team from making the FF's hearts stop.

I try to keep things within the context of a character's personality, which means heart-stopping techniques by psionics and nova flames are all out.



I wasn't referring to a comic showndown between Emma and Sue. I was referring to the lengthy debate over who would get the quickdraw out first. Their didn't have a real confrontation in the debate. Emma was talking to Sue and Sue knocked her out. Sue had her shield up and Emma talked to Sue through it, giving her a headache. Neither proves who would win, but it does show that Sue's shields didn't do squat to filter out Emma's "authoratative headache voice", which could have easily been "Emma's "knock you the **** out voice".

Making invisible things visible != telepathy blocking powers.

Which of course leaves us back with the Psi-Lord situation. When and where did this happen? Are there scans? A battle description? Anything? People claim Doom beat Terrax too, and it wasn't until we got scans that we realized that no such thing ever happened.

Jeez man...I dont even know where to start. But your argument just doesnt sound obective or reasonable at all. You have yet to say anything about the F4 performance in comic books to back anything. All I see are assumptions.

Firstly, I will point out that the writer of X4 didnt really know what their F4 history at all. The story was full of holes i.e. the idea that cosmic rays have a tendency to yield the same powers as the original F4. This is false, the only person to ever demonstrate an F4 type power from cosmic rays was Sharon Ventura when she became She-Thing. The U-Foes were subjected to cosmic rays, even longer than the F4. Their powers are entirely different from the F4. I dont know if u read anything but X-Men stuff but the U-Foes are a team of Hulk villains. The Red Ghost and his "super apes" were also exposed to cosmic rays and got entirely different powers as well. So to say the least, X4 was very inconsistent with other marvel comics so using it as evidence is kinda pointless.

Furthermore, Sue beat Emma to the draw in X4. However u tried to illustrate it as "Emma was talking to Sue..." its not like Emma wasnt as aware of the situation as Sue...in addition to the facts that Sue's thoughts should have been open to Emma if she's as powerful a telepath and warrior as some say.

Next, concerning the "headache voice", If u knew much about IW's powers, u would know that her power are not one dimensional generic invisibility and force fields. Her powers are much more dynamic than u have seen in a couple comics and the F4 movie. Her fields are not generic and her field was not being used to defend herself from TP but to hold back Wolverine. If she wanted to make a TP blocking field she would. She makes each field specifically for its use; thus, sometimes her fields allow in light, sometimes they block light, sometimes they block heat, sometimes they allow heat in, sometimes they are hard enough to stop a punch from the hulk, sometimes they are soft enough to catch and cushion a falling baby...sometimes they block TP as in the case of her fighting Psi-Lord.

Concerning Onslaught...I didnt suggest it meant telepathy blocking...I just stated what happened. Interpret however u want.

About Doom beating Terrax and scans...Ive never said Doom beat Terrax so this example doesnt apply to me. But I dont need scans because I actually own the Doom Terrax fight. Do u need scans for everything F4...otherwise u assume its a lie? Thats ridiculously bias... Whatever, it doesnt matter because someone just posted scans of her fighting Psi-Lord...Since I doubt u've ever read a comic book with Psi-Lord in it, the guy in the metal armor shooting at IW is Psi-Lord...But yes she has fought him, a couple of times actually.

Simply making force fields is not the extent of Sue's powers...u assume that getting inside of Franklins head is a power she doesnt have. Sue cant get through Franklin's shields? Them fighting back and forth isnt conclusive of this. That same writer, DeFalco I believe, had Sue punch a hole right through Galactus' chest. So she doesnt use lethal force against her own son...thats all I can conclude from it. And if Psi-Lord could use telepathy on IW with her shields up then he would "see her invisible attacks coming" which he states he cant.

In the end IW barely loses to the guy who is supposed to be the most powerful human in existence.

I think that in Marvel Knights 4, when FF were fighting Psycho Pirate, Sue was the only one who could get through because she was immune to his powers?

I don't have the comic here, though.

can she make them intangible? i saw in the F4 encyclopedia that she used force-hooks to get into Doom's brain or something, at least htat's what it said

Originally posted by Wynndar
Jeez man...I dont even know where to start. But your argument just doesnt sound obective or reasonable at all. You have yet to say anything about the F4 performance in comic books to back anything. All I see are assumptions.


Assumptions about what? What are you basing that on? What assumptions have I made? And how am I being anything less than objective or reasonable? Quote me.



Except that same idea was re-visited in the regular FF series where it was stated that the generation of the FF powers wasn't really an accident. That's why SHIELD was preparing a mission to re-create the FF's powers under the same conditions. So if the idea is explored in both X4 and FF's own book, it's obviously something that's becoming part of canon now.

Something similar even happened during the last part of Waid's run, where random people were being hit with the cosmic powers of the FF and developing identical powers to the FF. So those are three separate references in a year that gives information contrary to your statements. While what you're saying USED to be true, it's clearly not the case anymore.



Well, there's your evidence right there. She-Thing is pretty specific, isn't it?



the point you're missing is that there are different types of cosmic rays. Remember, gamma rays are considered cosmic rays. The rays that hit the spider that gave Spider-Man his powers were also considered cosmic rays. So "cosmic rays" by themselves don't say much. I don't know if you read anything but back issues of FF, but a relationship between those specific cosmic rays and the FF's specific powers has been established several times over the past year. So X4 has done a good job in keeping with current events.



Sue didn't beat Emma to the draw. I completely believe that Sue's thought processes are as fast as Emma's. Therefore if Emma has no intention of hurting Sue and Sue wants to take out Emma, by the time Emma is alerted to Sue's intention, Sue could take Emma out. I don't dispute that at all. However, that's not really quickdraw, is it?

It would pretty much be:

Emma: blah blah blah, we should take a hard line against blah blah
Sue's thoughts: I don't like her tone, I'm gonna put her down now
Emma's telepathy: *alert* Sue is planning to attack
Emma: Are you kidding m...*WHAM*

That's absolutely feasible and likely what happened. Emma isn't immune to sneak attacks, but that proves absolutely nothing about Sue's ability to take down a prepared Emma.



Oh, so now IW is the Green Lantern? I don't buy it. I've been reading FF since the Heroes Reborn reboot and she's shown no such ability. I've seen her create fields of different shapes and sizes. She's made swords out of it, and bo staffs out of it, and slides out of it, and she's floated them gently or expelled them with incredible force. But I've never seen a single instance where she's made it soft, or she's blocked light, and she's damn sure never blocked telepathy with it.



If it didn't pertain to the debate, why bring it up?



No, I don't need scans. But I require more information to provide context. You kept bringing up how she blocked Psi-Lord, and whenever I asked for more information, I never got anything until someone else posted it. And, as I expected, it's a pretty clear case of PIS given that she displayed a whole array of powers she doesn't have. Or are you saying she now has the ability to invade people's minds with a "special" forcefield?

Originally posted by Wynndar
Simply making force fields is not the extent of Sue's powers...u assume that getting inside of Franklins head is a power she doesnt have. Sue cant get through Franklin's shields? Them fighting back and forth isnt conclusive of this. That same writer, DeFalco I believe, had Sue punch a hole right through Galactus' chest. So she doesnt use lethal force against her own son...thats all I can conclude from it. And if Psi-Lord could use telepathy on IW with her shields up then he would "see her invisible attacks coming" which he states he cant.

In the end IW barely loses to the guy who is supposed to be the most powerful human in existence.

You've completely failed to explain how she was able to get inside's Franklin's mind like she did. My guess is that you're as baffled as everybody else is. She was written in that storyline like she's Phoenix, and any unbiased person knows how inaccurate that is. Explain to me what power she has that allows her to enter somebody's psyche. You're saying that I'm just assuming that getting inside Franklin's head is a power she doesn't have. OF COURSE I'm assuming that - Sue isn't a telepath!!!! What are you going to say in reply? "Well, why are you assuming that just because Sue hasn't shown any telepathic powers before that she doesn't have it?"

Are you kidding me?

And that still doesn't explain how she was able to block a telepathic attack by Franklin while keeping Franklin in her head. How does being able to create invisible objects allow her to do THAT?

Face it, those scans are screaming plot device. I completely discount those abilities as the writer's attempt to put her on even terms with Psi-Lord for the sake of plot.

<<But let me ask you, Leonidas - all things considered, are you willing to conclude that Sue has the ability to block telepathy based on these scans, keeping in mind that last scan you posted? Be honest!>>

i've never understood why she COULDN'T block it. after all her power IS psionically based. it onlt stands to reason to me that she would be able to defend against psionic attacks. it seems pretty clear from the battle that she can, so yeah, i'd say she is capable of doing so.

as far as PIS -- i dug a bit further into the issue of her leaping into franklin. it seems that malice somehow transferred her essence into franklin and basically took possession of him. now, since malice is just an aspect of sue, i'm still not sure HOW that happened. malice however HAS been portrayed as 'sue unleashed', so it's possible she could exhibit different levels of power that sue generally keeps in check or just doesn't use.

<<Franklin was ALREADY in her head, and she was still able to block a psi-attack while keeping him inside her mind? That's impossible - he's inside of her mind. If she had the ability to block a mental attack, it would eject Franklin from her head altogether. It wouldn't prevent him from mentally attacking her while still giving him access to her head. She makes forcefields - either it blocks telepathy, preventing access to her mind altogether, or it doesn't. >>

hmm, thing you're not considering is that malice -- while sue -- is a seperate entity from her. he was in sue's head battling malice. like when people get in hulk's head and see banner and hulk. just because he was inside sue's head doesn't mean malice couldn't still battle him. another thing to consider -- malice seemed to WANT franklin in sue's head.

sue and malice, while being the same person and possessing (ostensensibly) the same powerset, remain seperate entities. at the end of the battle they are LITERALLY seperated as malice hops into franklin's head.

last thing -- you say she creates invisible objects. but the thing is the objects are NOT 'physical', though they have an obvious physicality. they are mental/psi constructs, their efficacy based soley on her will power (which is nearly as great as any in comicdom, imo). with that in mind, does it not stand to reason that they would be as effective against mental assaults as physical ones?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
NEW TEAM


X-men:

Classic Rogue(Ms Marvel powers)
Storm
Current Psylocke
Cyclops

Vs

F4

IMO

Thing vs Colossus
Human Torch vs Iceman
Reed vs Forge
Invible Woman vs Storm / Polaris

Originally posted by leonidas
i've never understood why she COULDN'T block it. after all her power IS psionically based. it onlt stands to reason to me that she would be able to defend against psionic attacks. Too many people's powers are "psionically" based in order to make this conclusion. Jubilee for example also has psionically based powers. But certainly this doesn't mean that she has a telepathic power alone?

Anyone who triggers their powers have psionically based powers, be it iceman or human torch, Magneto or any other energy manipulator. Cyclops certainly would have been if not for the blow to the head that damaged his ability to control his powers. And yet no one other than telepaths shows an inate abilty to BLOCK telepathy by themselves.

By that same token wouldn't that mean that these "psionic based" powers could be blocked by anyone else with "psionic based" powers?

Originally posted by leonidas
<<But let me ask you, Leonidas - all things considered, are you willing to conclude that Sue has the ability to block telepathy based on these scans, keeping in mind that last scan you posted? Be honest!>>

i've never understood why she COULDN'T block it. after all her power IS psionically based. it onlt stands to reason to me that she would be able to defend against psionic attacks. it seems pretty clear from the battle that she can, so yeah, i'd say she is capable of doing so.



Cresh did a good job of explaining this below, but when someone's power is "psionically" activated, that's just a fancy way of saying "mentally". Sue's power isn't psionically BASED, it's based on hyperspace or whatever. That was revealed in the issue where she destroyed that Celestial. If her power were psionically BASED, I'd agree with your assessment.



But do you still see the problem here? "somehow" "maybe" "in some manner" "possibly". You're trying to explain away powers she's never been shown to have before your since. And you are (rightfully) struggling to do so. And if she shows illogical powers in that instance, along with other powers she's never shown at any other time....aren't we obligated to dismiss that as PIS?



But if he's inside Sue's head, he's not physically battling anybody - they're all mental attacks. They're astral forms. Like Banner and Hulk both showing in Hulk's head. They're not LITERALLY there - they're just visual representations of their consciousness. Sue, not being a telepath, shouldn't have any powers in her astral form, least of all the ability to block a mental attack. I mean...what is she doing, putting a shield around her cerebral cortex?



But the thing is, they ARE physical constructs - they're just mentally (psionically) activated. But the substance is hypserspatial energy. That's very physical.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
If its that easy then why did the previous F4 Vs Xmen go on for so long. Emma is a powerful telepath as well. Surely she could have done the same thing?
I think because that one wasn't a fight to the death.

Originally posted by demigawd
Assumptions about what? What are you basing that on? What assumptions have I made? And how am I being anything less than objective or reasonable? Quote me.


U make assumptions constantly. Im not sure If u do it on accident because u sincerely dont know what ur talking about or if ur just trying to manipulate information for the sake of ur argument.

Originally posted by demigawd
Except that same idea was re-visited in the regular FF series where it was stated that the generation of the FF powers wasn't really an accident. That's why SHIELD was preparing a mission to re-create the FF's powers under the same conditions. So if the idea is explored in both X4 and FF's own book, it's obviously something that's becoming part of canon now.


Here's a good example of what Im talking about. Yes Shield wanted to replicate the exact conditions of the F4's flight. However they didnt know if the flight would yield identical powers to the F4. And it was revieled that it wasnt an accident AFTER Shield wanted to duplicate it....u've got your chronology mixed up there...They just wanted super powered soldiers. U should also read the commentary in the back of those issues; a lot of fans had trouble with this idea because it was inconsistent in light of the previous examples I made i.e. the U-Foes and Red Ghost. But like I said, This doesnt support ur argument because its never implied that the same "pseudo-elemental" powers described in X4 were going to be granted to the soldiers....so no, its nothing like X-4 in fact, I have no idea where u were going with this...either u did a bad job of reading the comic book or ur just trying to lie to make ur argument look better.


Originally posted by demigawd
Something similar even happened during the last part of Waid's run, where random people were being hit with the cosmic powers of the FF and developing identical powers to the FF. So those are three separate references in a year that gives information contrary to your statements. While what you're saying USED to be true, it's clearly not the case anymore.


There u go again. WTF are u talking about? Their powers were jumping around after the fight with Galactus that removed the F4's powers and Galactus' powers. It wasnt that people were being mutated....its that the specific team member's powers were jumping from person to person in New York; each member of the F4 had to get in contact with someone who was temporarily containing their powers. Again this has nothing to do with your argument...I think u misinterpreted the comics again.

So where u tried to say there were three separate references that proved me wrong...there were actually zero...and two that u badly misinterpreted.

Originally posted by demigawd
Well, there's your evidence right there. She-Thing is pretty specific, isn't it?


Yes, She Thing remains the only person in 616 continuity to gain a power identical to a member of the F4 from cosmic rays.

U might want to go check out the old F4 vs X-Men cross over. Remember what the whole story was about? About Doom planting an entry in Reed's journal describing how he had previous knowledge of the F4's genotypes that suggested they would acquire powers from exposure to cosmic rays? And that he subjected them to the rays on purpose?

Originally posted by demigawd
the point you're missing is that there are different types of cosmic rays. Remember, gamma rays are considered cosmic rays. The rays that hit the spider that gave Spider-Man his powers were also considered cosmic rays. So "cosmic rays" by themselves don't say much. I don't know if you read anything but back issues of FF, but a relationship between those specific cosmic rays and the FF's specific powers has been established several times over the past year. So X4 has done a good job in keeping with current events.



Im not missing out on this at all. In fact, ur setting urself up for failure. Why bring up other radiation beings? The Hulk, Leader, Wonderman, Doc Samson, Abomination, Madman, Dr Octopus, Spiderman, Rhino, Sasquatch, U-Foes, The entire inhabitants of Middletown, etc. All of these people exposed to different kinds of radiation were each effected differently and its been explained many times over that their unique powers are due to their unique genotype.

I will reiterate, X-4 did not do a good job at staying consistent with what is cannon.


Originally posted by demigawd
Sue didn't beat Emma to the draw. I completely believe that Sue's thought processes are as fast as Emma's. Therefore if Emma has no intention of hurting Sue and Sue wants to take out Emma, by the time Emma is alerted to Sue's intention, Sue could take Emma out. I don't dispute that at all. However, that's not really quickdraw, is it?


...Emma lost to Sue.
I dont care cuz i dont even think X4 is in conitnuity anyway.
Its sad how u have to make this over drawn rationalization to convince urself that Emma didnt lose though.

Originally posted by demigawd
It would pretty much be:

Emma: blah blah blah, we should take a hard line against blah blah
Sue's thoughts: I don't like her tone, I'm gonna put her down now
Emma's telepathy: *alert* Sue is planning to attack
Emma: Are you kidding m...*WHAM*


I dont know what this is or what is has to do with what ACTUALLY happned in the comic book. I guess its one way the fight could possibly go in ur head...but thats not very comforting considering Wolverine 8888 could make an argument (that would seem feasable enough to him) for wolverine to beat Sentry.

Originally posted by demigawd
That's absolutely feasible and likely what happened. Emma isn't immune to sneak attacks, but that proves absolutely nothing about Sue's ability to take down a prepared Emma.


Prepared as in prep? so u realize in this fight Emma wouldnt be able to sneak attack Sue with TP either? Then it would still be a short fight where Sue would utterly destroy her.

Originally posted by demigawd
Oh, so now IW is the Green Lantern? I don't buy it. I've been reading FF since the Heroes Reborn reboot and she's shown no such ability. I've seen her create fields of different shapes and sizes. She's made swords out of it, and bo staffs out of it, and slides out of it, and she's floated them gently or expelled them with incredible force. But I've never seen a single instance where she's made it soft, or she's blocked light, and she's damn sure never blocked telepathy with it.


So that leaves out perhaps the most important run for IW which was probably the Defalco period...Reed was presummed dead during a good chunk of his run and Sue was the leader. Thing once tried to catch a falling construction worker, Sue pointed out that landing in his rock hard arms would probably be worse than hitting the ground and made a pillow like field. Once in a confrontation with Galactus at ground zero, IW shielded the F4 with a field that blocked out every frequency of the EM spectrum, including light. DeFalco even described how her powers are PSIONIC manipulations of Hyperspace before she shattered the armor of Exitar the Celestial (another issue u probably missed). If u've been reading the F4 since heroes reborn that means u've seen very little...it means u've missed out on most of the better F4 writers like Byrne who also showed IW's powers very dynamically.

Originally posted by demigawd

No, I don't need scans. But I require more information to provide context. You kept bringing up how she blocked Psi-Lord, and whenever I asked for more information, I never got anything until someone else posted it. And, as I expected, it's a pretty clear case of PIS given that she displayed a whole array of powers she doesn't have. Or are you saying she now has the ability to invade people's minds with a "special" forcefield?


Like Nathaniel Richards determined, Sue's powers are fundamentally PSIONIC but her fields are a demonstration of Sue's ability to tap into the dimension of hyperspace. If u had read that comic book, or others concerning Malice, u would know that malice is a type of psionic/psychological issue of IW's that was caused by Psychoman. If her psionic abilities dont resemble those of the mutant telepaths ur so familiar with, it doesnt mean its PIS, its just different from what ur used to in the pages of X-Men. It wasnt a forcefield, but it was a manifestation of her psionic powers which are not limited to forcefields.

<<Too many people's powers are "psionically" based in order to make this conclusion. Jubilee for example also has psionically based powers. But certainly this doesn't mean that she has a telepathic power alone?

Anyone who triggers their powers have psionically based powers, be it iceman or human torch, Magneto or any other energy manipulator. Cyclops certainly would have been if not for the blow to the head that damaged his ability to control his powers. And yet no one other than telepaths shows an inate abilty to BLOCK telepathy by themselves.

By that same token wouldn't that mean that these "psionic based" powers could be blocked by anyone else with "psionic based" powers?>>

that's actually a good and fair point, cresh. i think there's a difference however between iw's powers and these others you mentioned, and it is the nature of the psionic link to the power. you could take your point to the nth degree and say punisher's powers are psionic in nature because his mind tells him where to point the gun. but i don't credit punisher with powers any more 'psionically based' than i do colossus. this from the marvel directory:

<<Sue Richards' psionic ability to manipulate ambient cosmic energy enables her to bend light around her body without distortion, thus rendering herself invisible. The cells of her body produce an unknown form of energy she can mentally project around other people and objects -- rending them invisible, as well. Richards' brain cells produce psionic force she can shape into relatively simple forms - such as rectangle planes, globes, cylinders, cones and domes. Also, she can mentally project protective fields that are highly resistant to concussive forces. And by projecting columns of psionic force beneath her, she can travel through the air. >>

i know well enough how bio's are viewed in this forum. i use it only to illustrate my point regarding the direct link that exists between her power and her mind. the part where it says: "RICHARDS' BRAIN CELLS PRODUCE PSIONIC FORCE" is i think relevant to this debate. as far as the fields themselves coming from hyperspace -- that was only a theory, but even assuming for the moment it is true, she pulls the force out of hyperspace with her mind, fashions them with her mind, and the strength of them is determined by her will/mind. and unlike gl and quasra, she does this SOLELY with her mind, and needs to outside source to generate the energy she wields. outside of the bio, there are NUMEROUS references (in book) to her power as 'psionic'. easy enough to scan some of you don't belive me.

demi: the one thing i dislike about your debate is the fact that you asked for evidence that she can block psionic attacks, i provided it, then you labelled it CIS. let's for a moment ignore the entire section in the last couple scans. in her battle with franklin early on, she was easily blocking his blasts. is THAT CIS? regardless of what happened later? or are you contending that because of what happened later the whole battle is CIS? wynn is right -- the arcs he is referring to really did define her as a character. in having missed those runs, you missed a lot of growth in iw, in terms of character and power.

it was clearly shown she could block a high level psi attack (psi-lord), and she has blocked psychoman's influence -- another mental assault. what more proof do you need?

in the event you still require more, what about this run-in with jean?

jean had just finished wrecking the avengers and ff. yet when she faces off aginst sue (this is AFTER sue's assault, when both are ready and afcing each other)

clearly jean's abilities do not affect her.

(just a quick clarification -- the floatation trick is jean using her powers to bounce the avengers and ff off the ceiling -- an effect that was STILL functioning when jean tried to attack sue)

in this last one, she traps jean who later admits defeat. taking all 3 cases into account -- psilord, psychoman and jean, how much more clear cut does it need to be for you to acknowledge that she can affect tk energy?

Originally posted by leonidas


Exactly, u have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt through multiple scans to make any progress in this argument...otherwise its assumed ur lying? The bias grossly obvious

Originally posted by Wynndar
U make assumptions constantly. Im not sure If u do it on accident because u sincerely dont know what ur talking about or if ur just trying to manipulate information for the sake of ur argument.


THIS coming from YOU? Who will either invent powers for Invisible Woman, or excuse blatant PIS because its casts your favorite team in a more favorable light. I never make assumptions, I just call bullshit as I see it. I'm sorry if my bullshitmeter is focused squarely on you and ringing like a banshee.



No I didn't. You assumed that I was making a point that I wasn't making. I never said that SHIELD knew that it wasn't an accident - I said SHIELD was trying to re-create the exact conditions of their acquisition of powers and create their own Fantastic Four. You're so obsessed with trying to "get" me that you screwed up my point completely. I'll assume that it was out of carelessness and not incompetence.

So the point stands - there's something innate to THOSE cosmic rays that yielded their powers. The fact that it was revealed to not be an accident at all is consistent with that. Sorry.



That's what we call "retcon". But if it was shown in three different sources by three different authors, then you're stuck with it. As opposed to a one off manifestation of telepathic powers that was never shown before and was never mentioned again.



Where am I going with this? You probably got confused in your failed attempts to make valid points, but YOU were making some lame attempt to dismiss X4 because the "nature" of their cosmic powers aren't to your standards.

All I'm doing is proving that the same idea was explored on three occasions that same year. It was most certainly implied that they'd get the same or similar powers. The military could have granted powers with normal cosmic rays otherwise....the fact that they wanted to totally reconstruct the FF's accident to create an "army" of Fantastic Fours shows as much. Read it again. Slowly this time.



Wrong. You can't contain specific "powers". That device removed the cosmic power from whoever it touched. That's how it took away Galactus' powers. The idea behind that was that there's a unique signature to their cosmic powers that can be passed around. Like to regular humans. Or, in the case of X4, the X-men.

And, if you recall, Reed has lost his powers before, way back in the 180s of FF. He regained them because of an experiment by Doom to re-create - get this - the specific combination of factors that led to THOSE powers.

Your yourself already mentioned She-Thing.

So there have been a number of cases where the exact powers of the FF have been reproduced in others. If that's your reasoning for not liking X4, your reasons are invalid. Either way, X4 is very much in continuity.

So the three references stand. With an fourth one thrown in, because I'm a good sport, and a fifth, because you're so wise.



Retconned. Who cares?



OR to the unique kind of cosmic power. Hulk, She-Hulk. Thing/She-Thing. Wonderman/Every other ionic being, Fantastic Four/Everybody who gets exposed to their cosmic radiation.




Except they weren't fighting. You don't lose to somebody you're not fighting. You get assaulted by someone you're not fighting. Emma was assaulted by Sue. No indication whatsoever of how a fight would go.



Irrelevant statement. Ignored.



Except Sue can't block telepathy. And when I mean prepared, I mean they're actually fighting. Not Emma having a conversation with Sue and Sue lashing out, which is precisely what happened in that issue.



Oh, this is a gem. So in other words, all the powers she pulled out of her ass are because of Defalco in a single run? hahaha. PIS. It's the equavalent of Erik Larsen's run on Wolverine, which everybody universally ignores. If these made up powers are ignored by everybody before and since, I don't recognize them.

And I know her powers are PSIONIC manipulations of hyperspace. That's what I said. But PSIONIC is simply another term for mentally controlled use of hyperspace. So what? The fields are still hyperspatial energy. It's not psionic energy. There's simply no way they can block telepathy. In that very issue, Sue is portrayed as a telepath! That's reason enough to ignore the story.



In other words you're saying that Sue is really some kind of super hyperspace telepath - if she chose to be. Am I getting that right?

hahahahaha. Fanboyism at its very finest!

Originally posted by leonidas
that's actually a good and fair point, cresh. i think there's a difference however between iw's powers and these others you mentioned, and it is the nature of the psionic link to the power. you could take your point to the nth degree and say punisher's powers are psionic in nature because his mind tells him where to point the gun. but i don't credit punisher with powers any more 'psionically based' than i do colossus. this from the marvel directory:

<<Sue Richards' psionic ability to manipulate ambient cosmic energy enables her to bend light around her body without distortion, thus rendering herself invisible. The cells of her body produce an unknown form of energy she can mentally project around other people and objects -- rending them invisible, as well. Richards' brain cells produce psionic force she can shape into relatively simple forms - such as rectangle planes, globes, cylinders, cones and domes. Also, she can mentally project protective fields that are highly resistant to concussive forces. And by projecting columns of psionic force beneath her, she can travel through the air. >>

i know well enough how bio's are viewed in this forum. i use it only to illustrate my point regarding the direct link that exists between her power and her mind. the part where it says: "RICHARDS' BRAIN CELLS PRODUCE PSIONIC FORCE" is i think relevant to this debate. as far as the fields themselves coming from hyperspace -- that was only a theory, but even assuming for the moment it is true, she pulls the force out of hyperspace with her mind, fashions them with her mind, and the strength of them is determined by her will/mind. and unlike gl and quasra, she does this SOLELY with her mind, and needs to outside source to generate the energy she wields. outside of the bio, there are NUMEROUS references (in book) to her power as 'psionic'. easy enough to scan some of you don't belive me.


I agree that she psionically manipulates the hyperspatial energies of her field. But that doesn't mean that she's some kind of psi. If you read the bio on any number of X-men, like, say Jubilee, their powers are "psionically controlled". But that still doesn't give them any kind of mental or telepathic resistence. Hell, telekinetics ARE psis, but if they don't have telepathic powers, they can't block telepathic attacks. Sue doesn't have telepathic powers. She has psionic control of hyperspatial energy (which isn't a theory, but was proven in the issue where she destroyed the celestial). And hyperspatial energy is not psionic energy - it can't block telepathy.



I'm not calling all evidence CIS. What I'm doing is saying that if there's an issue where people are displaying powers they don't have, then there's something wrong with the issue. If she's showing telepathic abilities, like invading somebody's mind....how can you take that issue seriously?

If somebody said that Spider-Man has the ability to take down CL100 characters and then post him being up Firelord, do we take it seriously or not?

Now, if we post Spider-Man taking out multiple heralds over the course of years, then it's not CIS - it's in their makeup.

Sue only has one instance of blocking telepathy, and in that same issue, she invaded Franklin's mind using a telepathic attack. She's not a telepath!



I didn't say Sue is incapable of blocking telekinetic blasts, which are quite physical. I said Sue is incapable of blocking telepathic attacks, which are entirely mental. The scans you've shown are just scans I warned everybody about beforehand. Jean was simply using telekinetic attacks on Sue, because she lost her telepathy when she emerged from her cacoon. So while I accept that those scans are valid, I knew about them already, and they don't contribute to your point.

Originally posted by leonidas
in this last one, she traps jean who later admits defeat. taking all 3 cases into account -- psilord, psychoman and jean, how much more clear cut does it need to be for you to acknowledge that she can affect tk energy?

Actually, I agree she CAN affect TK energy, because TK energy is physical, and I think that her shields can block ANY physical attack. Perhaps even magical. But telepathic attacks aren't physical. TK isn't the same as TP. Your scans show mainly the former, but none of the latter, except for that one case where she also showed telepathic powers. And that's SvFL.

and stopping/blocking psychoman's influence? again, there has been a LONG association between iw's power and psionics. psi-lord's inability to read her mind/enter her head until she dropped the shield is another example.

and in the other scans, jean admitted defeat. she didn't even TRY any mind control tricks. that's sort of telling as well.

i don't think the psi-lord battle constitutes cis, (though because malice was present the issues were a bit muddled) i think the parts relevant to this disussion were fine -- ie blocking frank from reading/entering her mind, blocking his psi-bolts (and why wouldn't they count as a mental assault?) however, but i doubt i'll ever convince YOU that it wasn't cis.

If psychoman was responsible for Malace coming out in the first place, then she wasn't entirely succecssful in blocking his influence, was she? What happened in that storyline, by the way?

That Psi-Lord thing is tainted by a number of issues - what role does Psychoman's influence have on her psychic abilities - both offensive and defensive, since she displayed powers she never did before. You yourself admitted that it's too muddy. And you're right - the circumstances are too muddy to conclude as a standard power.

And again - a telepath knows when they're not telepathic anymore - they're headblind. Jean didn't try any mind tricks because she knew that she didn't have her telepathy anymore, because she was headblind from the time she emerged.

So there isn't a long association - there's an association with an issue where she displayed new abilities that weren't shown before or since, and this psychoman issue that I don't know anything about. Now, maybe there's something to the psychoman issue....tell me about it.

This guys not even making sense. Im not even going to waste my time pointing out the faults in his argument...half of it would just consist of me repeating myself. Reed Richards losing his powers and regaining them are an example of someone duplicating the powers of the F4? The cosmic rays changed the structure of his DNA, anytime a memeber of the F4 loses or regains their powers they always come back the same way.

How can one still refute that IW cant block psi attacks? He is in pure fanboy denial.

Why would Jean try any "mind control" tricks when she didn't have TP? As far as IW and Franklin...I've never seen him display the skill that Jean, Xavier, Emma or any other heavy weight TP has.

Jean's TK doesn't have to get THROUGH IW's forcefields. If she's making constructs from psionic energy, then that means that the constructs are solid to a degree, much like most TK shields. If that's the case, why can't Jean apply force? Why can't she move the field itself? Depending on where the fight takes place, she should also be able to manipulate what's under the field.

Wait a minute...I just looked it up. Psychoman isn't a telepath. He possesses as device that produces rays that affect someone's emotions and mental state. OF COURSE Sue can block it - it's simply radiation. It's a physical attack that affects your mental state. It's not a telepathic attack. C'mon, now.

HAHAHAHA...."I just looked it up"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
NEW TEAM


X-men:

Classic Rogue(Ms Marvel powers)
Storm
Current Psylocke
Cyclops

Vs

F4

Again, this is just between IW and Psylocke now. And being quite the extremely powerful telekinetic that she is, I believe that she can actually counteract Sue's forcefields. I'm not saying who's is stronger, just that I believe Psylocke's TK can counter it, only to render both IW's shields and Psylocke's TK useless.

So now we've got a real fight on our hands!

of course u think she can counteract her fields

Originally posted by Wynndar
This guys not even making sense. Im not even going to waste my time pointing out the faults in his argument...half of it would just consist of me repeating myself. Reed Richards losing his powers and regaining them are an example of someone duplicating the powers of the F4? The cosmic rays changed the structure of his DNA, anytime a memeber of the F4 loses or regains their powers they always come back the same way.

How can one still refute that IW cant block psi attacks? He is in pure fanboy denial.

You make a habit out of being wrong. Doom specifically said that it required a combination of circumstances to give Reed back his powers - those same circumstances that create those specific powers (not necessarily requiring a ship, just the factors that existed when the ship reached its point). Doom, behind the scenes, did that. Those same circumstances are what SHIELD tried, but far more literally. Those same circumstances is what give the X-men FF powers. It's all connected. Why you can't see that is beyond me.

As for blocking psi attacks - nothing you've shown has proven it. Psychoman isn't a telepath, the Psi-Lord issue had too many extraneous problems for it to be a clean showing, and Jean wasn't telepathic at the time. That just leaves one showing that even Leon concedes is a bit too muddy.

Sorry boys, the FF still go down via telepathic bolt.

Originally posted by Wynndar
of course u think she can counteract her fields

Of course he does, because he's not a FF fanboy like you are.

Yes, I looked it up. You have a problem with research? Given your poor command of the facts, I think I already know the answer to that.

Originally posted by Wynndar
of course u think she can counteract her fields And of course you think that she can't.

Another thing...Jean's been able to affect both Juggernaut and Magneto with their psi-proof helmets on.

<<Wait a minute...I just looked it up. Psychoman isn't a telepath. He possesses as device that produces rays that affect someone's emotions and mental state. OF COURSE Sue can block it - it's simply radiation. It's a physical attack that affects your mental state. It's not a telepathic attack. C'mon, now.>.

??

i never claimed he was. i thought everyone knew he used tech. however, this 'radiation' still affects minds. you can't definitively state the energy from the machine is different from tp energy. nor can you (i don't think) say that tp is NOT a form of psionic energy itself. she has shown the ability to block forms of psionic energy already (you acknowledged that point already). so, if she is able to block both psychoman energy and tk energy (both forms of psionic energy), why WOULDN'T she be able to block tp?

and i could of course turn this argument around on the x-posse () and ask you to give me proof showing she CAN'T block it. it seems the ff backers are the only ones being asked to give proof of a claim. let one of the x-gang give some evidence of sue (with her shield up) being mind f'd by someone, and i'll concede that sue DOESN'T end this before it begins.



(and demi, lest we forget about the larger issue -- at least we agree thor beats ss!)

later

Telepathy isn't a form of electromagnetic radiation - it isn't physical. Are you saying the astral plane can be contained by physical means?

You're appealing for a negative proof. "Prove that aliens do not exist or else therefore they exist." I'm not going to go into the logical fallacy of that.

The FF "posse" having first brought up X4 as showing that "Sue beats Emma." or "Sue is faster than telepathy." because she suckerpunched her, and having used it for a long time in a prior thread - the part of that same example which has Sue being affected by telepathy within a forcefield is going to be disregarded. Are we going to pick and choose bits of things?

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Wait a minute...I just looked it up. Psychoman isn't a telepath. He possesses as device that produces rays that affect someone's emotions and mental state. OF COURSE Sue can block it - it's simply radiation. It's a physical attack that affects your mental state. It's not a telepathic attack. C'mon, now.>.

??

i never claimed he was. i thought everyone knew he used tech. however, this 'radiation' still affects minds. you can't definitively state the energy from the machine is different from tp energy. nor can you (i don't think) say that tp is NOT a form of psionic energy itself.


There's a difference between what Psychoman does and what a telepath does, just like there's a difference between what Magneto or Purple Man does and what a telepath does, even though the effect is the same. Magneto controls electrical impulses in the brain, Purple Man emits phermones. The net effect is on the mind, but you can't assume that because the net effect is the same that there's a universal block for the cause. There isn't. An airtight metal box can block Purple Man's phermones. But that doesn't mean a metal box can protect you from a telepathic attack, right?



Because psychoman's energy isn't psionic. It affects emotions - it's an entirely different effect. It's closer to Purple Man than Xavier. TK energy is physical. Not all telepaths have telekinesis. Not all telekinetics are telepaths. The energies aren't the same. One is physical, which is within the realm of Sue's powers, the other is mental, which is not.



sure, when you prove that Superman doesn't have the power to teleport. What? Can't do it? Must be because it's impossible to prove someone doesn't have a power - the burden is to prove they DO.



hahaha....I don't think we have to disagree or agree on everything. I never have a bias against an individual, and I have great respect for you, even when we don't agree.

Even though Wyndar and I traded some insults, I'm sure he knows that I have a lot of respect for him too, being the #1 and all too often, the only supporter of the FF. It's a hard job when you're so outnumbered, but he steps up to the plate every time. No fear.

Originally posted by Wynndar
of course u think she can counteract her fields

You know what, Wynndar? I think a lot of things. You gonna tell me everything I think is wrong now?

ya, ya, proving a negative . . . blah blah. i had to try! heheh. my favourite is sagan's invisible dragon in the garage.

the only scan that showed support for wyn and me was the scan showing that frank couldn't read/enter her mind until she dropped the shield. i'm still not sure why that part wouldn't be considered relevant -- i'll agree that what happened in sue's head was puzzling, but what preceded it seemed fine and in character to me. she was blocking his psi-bolts (and wouldn't those be considered mental assaults?) and he couldn't get to her mind or read her thoughts until her shield dropped. in a battle between watchers, sue shielded the team while the watchers 'battled each other on multiple planes simultaneously'. does that not indicate she is capable of blocking extra-planar energy? is tp different from THIS energy as well?

no one on your 'team' has explained (nor can you in any way that isn't simply speculation, like it is still only considered speculation that sue's powers stem from a psionic link to hyperspace) why tp energy (it IS energy) should be considered fundamentally different from tk energy or any other energy and hence outside her sphere of influence. as regards the astral comment -- sue's fields have been proof against magic/sorcery in the past. can it be effective against astral entities? another interesting question. could strange in astral form get past her shields? beats me. again, i won't conclusively say yes or know, only that i believe it is possible she might block him.

i by no means am conceding this argument, (NO OWNAGE HERE!! :lol however it is clear it isn't going any further without definitive proof either way. i've never read the emma issue, so i've not brought it up, but if it is definitive as x claims, why is the discussion taking place? perhaps it is NOT as definitive? and if it IS please tell me now -- though i'd have appreciated it more at the START! i could as easily label the incident where it seems emma DID get into her head as PIS based on the fact that psi-lord couldn't do so, based on the fact that she has warded many different forms of psionic energy including shielding a multi-planar battle between watchers (though yes, it was never said exactly WHAT kind of energy the watchers were unleashing, so that too is not definitive. still, impressive and telling as regards the versatility/extent of her power.) so x, who is picking and choosing?

in any event, if i find such proof as is apparently required, i guarantee you all shall be the first to know about it. thanks for the interesting discussion.