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Fight! Setting is on Mustafar.

Mace and Yoda win.

what in the....................................Mace and Yoda.

Mace Loses to Dooku.
Dooku And Sidious gangs up on Yoda. They kill them.

I've become prejudiced against Yoda recently, so out of pure spite...Achilles wins.

Originally posted by Darth_Veav
Mace Loses to Dooku.
Dooku And Sidious gangs up on Yoda. They kill them.

There's another way. Mace manhandles Sidious. Yoda takes Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth_Veav
Mace Loses to Dooku.
Dooku And Sidious gangs up on Yoda. They kill them.

Sidious would lose to Yoda long before Mace would lose to Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Sidious would lose to Yoda long before Mace would lose to Dooku. What are you talking about. Have you even seen episode 3

Originally posted by darth vraya
What are you talking about. Have you even seen episode 3

Ever heard of terrain advantage? It was obvious Yoda was more powerful.

Whoa tough call, Gryn. At first i thought this thread was complete junk but then Dr. Doom showed that Yoda could beat Dooku and Sidious would lose to Mace. But it depends. If the Jedi can choose their opponents fast enough before the Sith they win. But if Sidious imediatly attacks Yoda and Dooku attacks Mace, the Sith win. It all depends on speed.

ROTS commentary...Lucas himself:
- Mace overpowered Sidious
- Sidious wanted to kill Mace with lightning but Mace deflected it back (that was the reason for Sidious face "melting"

(The next person that tries to tell me Sidious threw the fight will get force pimp slapped)

Conclusion.

Force powers:
Yoda > Mace > Sidious > or = Dooku

Lightsaber skill:
Yoda > Mace > or = Dooku > Sidious

The Jedi win this on equal ground.

nai you are so badly full of crap.

Listen Fishboy, why don't you take your poorly thought out, irrelevant and completely idiotic remarks and go sit in the corner 'till daddy comes home.

Originally posted by aquaman
nai you are so badly full of crap.

Thank you for telling me, oh enlightened being. Can you answer me a question: How do you keep your eyes from being sucked into the vacuum inside your head ? Special N.O.O.B (National Organisation Of Brainless) powers ?

Welcome back, Vercetti ?

Well, this guy manages to put in the extra two keystrokes for 'you', but I'd estimate that his mental aptitude is about there.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Listen Fishboy, why don't you take your poorly thought out, irrelevant and completely idiotic remarks and go sit in the corner 'till daddy comes home.

Hey, I recent that... Stop being so mean.

Hold up, bombard is Nai? Damnit, why did all the old timers switch names?

Cause they like it...

Originally posted by aquaman
nai you are so badly full of crap.

Foolishness.

Originally posted by Borbarad
ROTS commentary...Lucas himself:
- Mace overpowered Sidious
- Sidious wanted to kill Mace with lightning but Mace deflected it back (that was the reason for Sidious face "melting"

(The next person that tries to tell me Sidious threw the fight will get force pimp slapped)

Conclusion.

Force powers:
Yoda > Mace > Sidious > or = Dooku

Lightsaber skill:
Yoda > Mace > or = Dooku > Sidious

The Jedi win this on equal ground. Lucas also said that Boba died in episode 6. We cant exactly take what lucassays and i know he is the creator of star wars. also nai you are so full of cra......................coolness that you turn it into intellect.

I know Sidious would fight Yoda and Dooku would scrap Sidious. Dooku and Mace would be a long fight, but Dooku would win. Yoda then tools Sidious and then Yoda kills Dooku, leaving Yoda the victor.

Originally posted by Darth Avis
Lucas also said that Boba died in episode 6. We cant exactly take what lucassays and i know he is the creator of star wars. also nai you are so full of cra......................coolness that you turn it into intellect.

Actually, Lucas made a more recent statement that Boba did in fact survive and that he was going to put that into ep6 but it didn't flow with the rest of the movie.

And what Nai just said about GL saying is true and it logically makes sense(except for Mace being more powerful than Dooku or Mace in the force). The reason that I say that is because Mace did it with the help of a lightsaber rather than his hands.

Mace overpowered Sidious, I agree. But in that particular situation. It was mentioned, I think, on another thread that had Sidious fought as he did against Yoda, and actively used his Force powers instead of his sub par lightsaber ability, the fight may have turned out differently. But I will placate the masses.

Mace vs Sidious - Mace wins.

Yoda vs Dooku - Yoda wins.

Mace vs Dooku - Can go either way. Frankly I see no evidence that institutes Dooku as victorious over Mace (though I personally believe so), nor have I seen anything else. So this is a long hard battle.

Yoda vs Sidious - Yoda. Unless Sidious can disarm Yoda using lightning as he did in ROTS (not likely). However, Sidious has an affinity to use the environment to his advantage. If he distances himself from Yoda and uses the environment, he'll still most likely lose.

Yoda walks out of this alive. He's more powerful than Sidious (ROTS), Mace, or Dooku, and is superior to them in every aspect.

Personally, Glentract, I don't see Mace as that talented of a Force user. This is, simply, because I have yet to see him do it. It is obvious that he relies more on his lightsaber abilities, just as Sidious relies more on his Force powers. And we've seen that preference can have an impact on how one performs. But do I consider him on Dooku's level, let ALONE Sidious or Yoda in the Force? Nope.

I said that same thing in parenthesises.

I know. I was agreeing with you. I have a hard time believing Mace to be on Dooku's level in the Force (don't get me wrong, Dooku's tough, but he's no Sidious or Yoda, in either side).

Originally posted by Escape81
Mace overpowered Sidious, I agree. But in that particular situation. It was mentioned, I think, on another thread that had Sidious fought as he did against Yoda, and actively used his Force powers instead of his sub par lightsaber ability, the fight may have turned out differently. But I will placate the masses.

Mace vs Sidious - Mace wins.

Yoda vs Dooku - Yoda wins.

Mace vs Dooku - Can go either way. Frankly I see no evidence that institutes Dooku as victorious over Mace (though I personally believe so), nor have I seen anything else. So this is a long hard battle.

Yoda vs Sidious - Yoda. Unless Sidious can disarm Yoda using lightning as he did in ROTS (not likely). However, Sidious has an affinity to use the environment to his advantage. If he distances himself from Yoda and uses the environment, he'll still most likely lose.

Yoda walks out of this alive. He's more powerful than Sidious (ROTS), Mace, or Dooku, and is superior to them in every aspect.


Mace VS Dooku - Although this doesn't provide much, or hold much water, Dooku did defeat Mace Windu once. They both grew with more experience through time and Dooku was introduced to new found Darkened power. Dooku is a very dangerous force wielder and Lightsaber wielder. I know Mace Windu is also basically one of the best Jedi Swordsman besides Yoda, and Mace's force powers.... Well... Can't tell all that well. I still hand it to Dooku, though.

Yoda VS Sidious - Hard to say, although after Dooku defeats Mace, he could help Sidious take down Yoda, but Sidious and Yoda alone? So hard to say, but I am leaning towards our little green friend.

Mace and Dooku will be a long battle. Dooku is an exceptional duelist, but so is Mace. If Dooku wins, he will be 'LIMPING' away, possibly one armed.

As for Yoda and Sidious. Look, they're both my characters. And Yoda frankly doesn't outclass anyone (Mace, Dooku, or Sidious) to a horrible degree. Yoda DID and WILL have a hard time with Sidious. Yoda wasn't screwing around in that battle. He knew Sidious was damn near his equal and he fought smart, too. Also, I can argue Sidious would stand a better chance against Yoda than Dooku did, because unlike Dooku:

- He disarmed Yoda (though after Yoda disarmed him).
- He nailed Yoda with Force lightning.

Dooku's never done either. But that has nothing to do with this duel.

Yoda WILL win in the end, against Sidious. But especially if Sidious uses his environment, it will be a long duel.

Dooku and Yoda will be the victors of either duel. But again. If Mace dies quicker, Dooku and Sidious will team up, and then Yoda will bite the big one. If Yoda defeats Sidious, Dooku's gonna die.

Mace and Dooku will be a long battle. Dooku is an exceptional duelist, but so is Mace. If Dooku wins, he will be 'LIMPING' away, possibly one armed.

No, Dooku would not win wounded. It's all or nothing with them two.

As for Yoda and Sidious. Look, they're both my characters. And Yoda frankly doesn't outclass anyone (Mace, Dooku, or Sidious) to a horrible degree. Yoda DID and WILL have a hard time with Sidious. Yoda wasn't screwing around in that battle. He knew Sidious was damn near his equal and he fought smart, too.

I agree. To an extent.

- He disarmed Yoda (though after Yoda disarmed him).
- He nailed Yoda with Force lightning.

Dooku stayed and fought. He didn't try to run. Sidious got his ass thrown into a chair, which Dooku didn't, and then tried to run. I saw Dooku and Yoda on par with force, being why Dooku made a comment about settling it with Lightsabers. Sidious and Yoda kept on passing each other with the force.


Yoda WILL win in the end, against Sidious. But especially if Sidious uses his environment, it will be a long duel.

That can't be said. Yoda still ran from the fight and was fairly on par with Sidious. It's quite hard to say, in my eyes.

Dooku and Yoda will be the victors of either duel. But again. If Mace dies quicker, Dooku and Sidious will team up, and then Yoda will bite the big one. If Yoda defeats Sidious, Dooku's gonna die.


Maybe not. I understand that Yoda is powerful, but I saw on AOTC that they were on par with the Force. And wthem not fighting all day and in an entirely different enviroment, who knows.

A) Perhaps so. Then he'd probably fall over from a heart-attack and the lack of oxygen in his lungs. He'd definately be exhausted.

B) Yoda and Sidious are equals in the Force category. But I do think that Yoda is better in saber skills.

C) Simply means that Dooku had the desire to fight while Sidious did not. Consider. That in itself also puts Sidious in a good light. If Sidious was trying to 'escape' and he 'still' got in blows that Dooku never did, it makes him look even stronger. And I agree. But again, of a sorts, it was a stalemate. Palpatine's initial blow was stronger than Yoda's counter.

D) Yoda ran because he was out of options. He realized that it would only end in a vicious stalemate, or Sidious would've killed him at that point, having the advantage of offensive Force abilities.

E) You like to bring scripts in, I think (or maybe it's Nai). The AOTC script was used more than the original ROTS one, and it still said that Yoda bested him. And I was told that the script even supercedes the website. So who knows, indeed? And now also consider. The website or the script either say 'it was a stalemate' or they say that Dooku was overmatched and was forced to flee. You never see the opposite. Dooku is weaker than Yoda. It's obvious. As is Sidious.

Originally posted by Sorgo No, Dooku would not win wounded. It's all or nothing with them two.

I disagree here. The victor would be very wounded no matter who it was.

Originally posted by Sorgo Dooku stayed and fought. He didn't try to run. Sidious got his ass thrown into a chair, which Dooku didn't, and then tried to run. I saw Dooku and Yoda on par with force, being why Dooku made a comment about settling it with Lightsabers. Sidious and Yoda kept on passing each other with the force.

It could also be arrogance on Dooku's part. Dooku was actually quite arrogant in many situations, so it's not out of the question. And Sidious knocked Yoda back in many situations, twice in one fight as a matter of fact.

Originally posted by Sorgo That can't be said. Yoda still ran from the fight and was fairly on par with Sidious. It's quite hard to say, in my eyes.

There were thousands of Clone Troopers on the way. Yoda needed to get out of there. He was running from the Clones, not Sidious.

Originally posted by Sorgo Maybe not. I understand that Yoda is powerful, but I saw on AOTC that they were on par with the Force. And wthem not fighting all day and in an entirely different enviroment, who knows.

I wouldn't exactly call Dooku and Yoda on par. Yoda never made a full attack against Dooku. He more wanted to protect Obi-wan and Anakin and figure out what Dooku was trying to do.

Actually, there's no evidence of stormtroopers being "on the way" in the Yoda-Sidious fight.

Also, I like how Sidious is being said to be better than Dooku based on the fact that he scored a hit on Yoda in a fight that lasted something close to eight minutes, whereas Dooku fought Yoda for less than a minute. And Anakin got more hits in on Dooku and Obi-Wan beat his ass. Where's the logic in that?

I wouldn't exactly call Dooku and Yoda on par. Yoda never made a full attack against Dooku. He more wanted to protect Obi-wan and Anakin and figure out what Dooku was trying to do.

No proof of that. Yoda won the fight, but that doesn't mean he is better. My theory goes like this. For example, the Maul and Kenobi fight. Apparently, according to several people, Maul won the fight. But guess what? He is at the bottom of a Generator shaft rotting in two pieces dead while Kenobi went on with his Jedi Career, so who really won the fight? In order to technically "Defeat" someone or "win" a fight, you must KILL them or disarm several limbs. If you don't even touch them with your lightsaber.

Yoda ran because of Clone troopers? That holds just as much water as Dooku running because of the Death Star plans. You think Sidious and Yoda tied their fight, but Yoda ran, correct? Maybe Dooku and Yoda tied, because Dooku ran and no one was hurt.

Yoda and Dooku's duel was ON PAR. They clashed with the force and proved to be on par. With Lightsabers, on par again. I don't care if Yoda is better, that damned duel they had was on par, besides the fact that Dooku ran. Same with Yoda running away. They were on par for the fight, but Yoda busted-a-move.

Fighting doesn't have logic. Example:
Frazier beat Ali. Foreman beat Frazier. Ali beat Foreman.

And the Germans beat the French.

I mean (scoffs).........what up with THAT?

Lets see:
Yoda vs. Dooku = Yoda
Mace vs. Sidious = Sidious and don't try starting another did or did not Mace truely win arguement please.
Sidious vs. Yoda = Could go eitehr way but I'll say Sidious since he won fair and square the only time they did fight.

or

Mace vs. Dooku = As of now I say unknown
Yoda vs. Sidious = See above
Mace vs. Sidious and Dooku = Mace gets owned

So I'll say the Sith

Originally posted by darthsith19
Lets see:
Yoda vs. Dooku = Yoda
Mace vs. Sidious = Sidious and don't try starting another did or did not Mace truely win arguement please.
Sidious vs. Yoda = Could go eitehr way but I'll say Sidious since he won fair and square the only time they did fight.

or

Mace vs. Dooku = As of now I say unknown
Yoda vs. Sidious = See above
Mace vs. Sidious and Dooku = Mace gets owned

So I'll say the Sith


Wow.... I am getting Dejavu.

Originally posted by Borbarad
ROTS commentary...Lucas himself:
- Mace overpowered Sidious
- Sidious wanted to kill Mace with lightning but Mace deflected it back (that was the reason for Sidious face "melting"

(The next person that tries to tell me Sidious threw the fight will get force pimp slapped)

Conclusion.

Force powers:
Yoda > Mace > Sidious > or = Dooku

Lightsaber skill:
Yoda > Mace > or = Dooku > Sidious

The Jedi win this on equal ground.
Please tell how you know what the ROTS commentery says when the DVD isn't out yet.

He lives in Germany he probably got it earlier than we did.

Originally posted by Lord Simus
He lives in Germany he probably got it earlier than we did.
Lucky him.

Wow, the Germans got something before the rest of the world.....I for one am shocked.

Originally posted by darthsith19
Please tell how you know what the ROTS commentery says when the DVD isn't out yet.

You do know there are other sources for quotes from GL than commentaries.

Originally posted by Tangible God
Wow, the Germans got something before the rest of the world.....I for one am shocked.

Let's see... things Germans got before the rest of the world...

- Assault rifles
- Throwaway rocket launchers
- Good tanks
- A monopoly on sausage
- More rockets
- Modern warfare
- Camouflage uniforms
- ROTS DVD

Hm. That last one seems horribly out of place.

The ROTS DVD was officially released yesterday here (31th of Octobre) and they released BF2 the same day. I pretty much wondered about that myself when I saw the TV spot on Saturday since I've thought it will be released somewhere in the middle of November. Maybe they just wanted to push the BF 2 selling numbers (ROTS DVD set has a demo version of BF2 on the second DVD).

And therefore:


This statement is simply wrong. As I said...Lucas himself is talking about that scene and he said that there were different versions of that scene but they all had the following things included:
- Mace overpowering Sidious
- Sidious trying to kill Mace with lightning, Mace reflecting it back with his lightsaber making Sidious face "melt"
- Anakin cutting Mace's arm off to save Sidious

The only thing that was added (according to Lucas) was the idea to have Sidious fake that he doesn't have any force powers left. So in the "original" scene he kept on using lightning on Mace and Anakin cut Mace arm with the lightsaber off so that Sidious was able to finally hit Mace. So Sidious can't defeat Mace on his own when they fight on equal ground. That being said - and as long as you don't want to tell me that Mace is more powerful than Yoda - Sidious can't beat Yoda on equal ground.

That means.
Sidious vs Mace = Mace wins
Sidious vs Yoda = Yoda wins
Dooku vs Yoda = Yoda wins
Dooku vs Mace = I don't know

So unless you want to tell me that Dooku can take Mace faster than Yoda can take Sidious (Mace beat Sidious in about a minute; Yoda ist better than Mace and he disarmed Sidious in about a minute of fighting according to the ROTS script) the Jedi win that fight.

I haven't seen one person mention the fact that the fight was on mustafar. The lava and the jumping around means one of two things with yoda and sidious, 1. yoda will jump around and cut the very old sidious into little pieces, or sidious will be smarter than yoda again, and once again get the terrain advantage. yoda having learned from the first fight, i have to say yoda in that one. Mace and dooku? I want to say mace. he's got to be better. He beat sidious (for real, no sidious faking here) and for some reason dooku hadn't assassinated the emporer yet, which he would have if he could have (treachery is the way of the sith) I'm going with dooku though, because he is a fencer, and mace is pure power. A fencer will beat a power sword fighter every time, because mace always gives in and fights at a hundred miles an hour. So that leaves yoda and dooku, and yoda could, and did, hammer dooku. Not once, but twice if you read dark rendevous. So if mace fights sidious, he overpowers him again, and yoda kills dooku, so really yoda versus sidious and dooku versus mace is the only fight that even give the sith a chance.

Originally posted by DrDoom101
There's another way. Mace manhandles Sidious. Yoda takes Dooku.


Thats rigth!!!!

Sith would win.

Mace vs. Dooku: It would be close but I want to say Dooku. Dooku had beaten Mace before, but they had both learned alot since then. After Dooku was taught to be a Sith, he was alot more powerful (What Tyranus said before fighting Yoda in Ep. 2 makes me think this).

Yoda vs. Sidious: People are saying that Sidious only lived through the battle because of terrain advantage, well then we know he can plot out his fights better than Yoda. Mustafar is an easy place to find an advantage and Sidious would get it first. Sidious wins.

or

Dooku vs. Yoda: Dooku puts up a good and lasting fight, but eventually loses.

Mace vs. Sidious: I won't talk about faking because of the dissapproval of the subject. Sidious wouldn't enter saber combat, he would fight him like he did Yoda. In ROTS he had to enter saber combat or else he would of had to fight 4 Jedi Masters with the force. If Sidious fought Windu like he did Yoda,he would win.

then Sidious vs. Yoda (look up).

Originally posted by Fishy
Hey, I recent that... Stop being so mean.

Lol! I was talking to 'aquaman'. Would I ever say something like that to you? Although I suppose I missed the name resemblance.

Did he say RECENT?

Well I resent that he said recent!

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Sith would win.

I disagree.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Mace vs. Dooku: It would be close but I want to say Dooku. Dooku had beaten Mace before, but they had both learned alot since then. After Dooku was taught to be a Sith, he was alot more powerful (What Tyranus said before fighting Yoda in Ep. 2 makes me think this).

The nearly traditional Glentract Math...
Dooku beat Mace when Mace was at most 40. Thats the OLDEST Mace could have been. That would give Dooku 30 Years on him. Nearly double the experince. In ROTS, Mace is 53, Dooku 83. Before, Dooku's experince was 75% greater than Mace's, now it's only ~56%. A significant decrease of advantage for Dooku in the experince department.
Remember, the above calculation assumes a best case senario for Dooku.

Now, onto Harun Kal...
On Harun Kal, Mace conquered Darkness' hold over him. Before he did this, he was unable to fully tap into the power Vapaad held for him. The last time Mace and Dooku fought, Mace lacked this advantage.

Now onto force powers...
At first glance, Dooku has a serious advantage in force powers. This doesn't seem so.
First, Dooku is weaker than Sidious in the force. I think this is universeally accepted.
Second, Mace defeated Sidious in a display of force powers. Sure, Mace had an advantage in that he was using his lightsaber, but it is advantage that he will have in this case also.
Now, this doesn't mean that Mace is more powerful in the force than Dooku or Sidious, but it does show that he is capable of protecting himself from it when he is using a lightsaber.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Yoda vs. Sidious: People are saying that Sidious only lived through the battle because of terrain advantage, well then we know he can plot out his fights better than Yoda. Mustafar is an easy place to find an advantage and Sidious would get it first. Sidious wins.

There aren't things like Senate Pods or the threat of thousands of approaching Clone Troopers on Mustafar though. I can't say for certain where this would go.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Dooku vs. Yoda: Dooku puts up a good and lasting fight, but eventually loses.

Two minutes tops.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Mace vs. Sidious: I won't talk about faking because of the dissapproval of the subject. Sidious wouldn't enter saber combat, he would fight him like he did Yoda. In ROTS he had to enter saber combat or else he would of had to fight 4 Jedi Masters with the force. If Sidious fought Windu like he did Yoda,he would win.

No proof for this. Mace defeated Sidious' force powers, this is fact.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
then Sidious vs. Yoda (look up).

See my response to that argument.

The Jedi would win.

1. I agree with Glenctract. Once more, Mace's room for improvement is greater than Dooku's. Dooku had roughly 30 years more experience, but Mace progressed immensely during his time in the Jedi Order. Not to say Dooku didn't either, but it is conceivable that Mace is now at the level of Dooku by ROTS.

2. Mace defeated Sidious's display of Force powers. Not in 'a' display of Force powers. 95% of what we've seen indicates that Mace would be crushed in a Force battle against Sidious. Yoda had a hell of a time against Sidious in a Force duel, and Mace is not Yoda's equal in either category.

Again. I agree with Glenctract. If Mace could take Sidious's powers at point blank range (though he struggled immensely), he can do the same with Dooku.

3. Once again. Yoda doesn't seem to possess an affinity to use one's surrounding to one's advantage. Sidious does. Now. This is not an easy fight, even if they battle in point blank range. Yoda will win the saber duel, but then Sidious might take the battle to the next level, in the Force. And despite what people think, Yoda's chances for survival decrease than if they dueled with a saber. Because, while Yoda did indeed disarm Sidious, he obviously still didn't kill him. In essence, Yoda was unable to defeat Sidious, even when Sidious was 'unarmed', showing that in a Force battle, Yoda will be put to the test and it is far from guarenteed that he could kill Sidious with sabers. Simply because Sidious survived when Yoda disarmed him, so it is likely he can do it again.

If Sidious uses his environment, such as the cranes and droids, it is EASILY a 50/50 chance. This isn't, contrary to popular belief, an easy fight. But I personally believe Yoda will win.

4. Dooku is NOT outclassed by Yoda. Is he Yoda's equal in Force powers or dueling skills? No. But the fact of the matter is, that despite his fear of Yoda and Yoda's superiority, he kept up with him blow for blow. But Dooku's fear was evident in the battle, and he fled knowing that he could not beat his master.

So. In conclusion.

Mace did NOT fight against Sidious's Force powers until Sidious was on his ass and disarmed. And even then, Mace was gritting his teeth and being pushed back. Only when Sidious stopped the output of energy did Mace finally get the true upper-hand.

And as for Lucas's comments:

I personally fluxuate on the issue. I do not disagree with Lucas. But he simply said 'Mace overpowered Sidious'. Indeed. This is true. Even if Palpatine 'threw' the fight, Mace still overpowered him. But he did not, to my knowledge, state that Mace simply defeated Palpatine through greater skill. When you look at it, Lucas 'STILL' left things open. And, also, Anakin's arrival was remarkably coincidental...

Lucas is notorious for leaving things about the PT unfinished and unresolved because, as he said, he likes for his fans to think outside of the box.

Anyways, well said.

Originally posted by Escape81
2. Mace defeated Sidious's display of Force powers. Not in 'a' display of Force powers. 95% of what we've seen indicates that Mace would be crushed in a Force battle against Sidious. Yoda had a hell of a time against Sidious in a Force duel, and Mace is not Yoda's equal in either category.

I don't think it is ever canonly stated that Yoda is superior to Mace in either. He probably is, but it isn't certain. Just because Yoda is head of the Order doesn't mean he is the most powerful.

For example, Yoda is probably more powerful than Mace in the force for attacking. but Mace appears better than Yoda in force for defense.

Anyway, Mace had advantages against Sidious that would still be present on Mustafar.

For example, Mace is better with a lightsaber. This will still be true on Mustafar.
Same with his ability to defend himself from force attacks. Mace, when emerged into Vapaad at the level he was in ROTS is close to a superconductor in the force. Sidious' attack was reflected back as Sidious without severly harming Mace. This only means he can defend and use Sidious' attacks against Sidious, not that he is more powerful then Sidious in attacking with the force.

Originally posted by Escape81
If Sidious uses his environment, such as the cranes and droids, it is EASILY a 50/50 chance. This isn't, contrary to popular belief, an easy fight. But I personally believe Yoda will win.

I agree, Yoda will win.

Originally posted by Escape81
4. Dooku is NOT outclassed by Yoda. Is he Yoda's equal in Force powers or dueling skills? No. But the fact of the matter is, that despite his fear of Yoda and Yoda's superiority, he kept up with him blow for blow. But Dooku's fear was evident in the battle, and he fled knowing that he could not beat his master.

Like most fights, there were circumstances to their fight.

For one, Yoda didn't know that Dooku was a Sith Lord in AOTC. He felt Dooku had fallen to the Darkside, but considered him a Dark Jedi, not a Sith.

Also, Yoda's intent was not to kill Dooku. Seeing as this fight would probably take place in the ROTS time, Yoda will by this point have knowledge that Dooku is a Sith and fight harder against him.

Originally posted by Escape81
Mace did NOT fight against Sidious's Force powers until Sidious was on his ass and disarmed. And even then, Mace was gritting his teeth and being pushed back. Only when Sidious stopped the output of energy did Mace finally get the true upper-hand.

Not exactly. Do you remember Sidious' screaming to Anakin that Mace was killing him? That is because he was. Mace was reflecting the Force Lightning back at Sidious, which was what melted his face. If Sidious' hadn't stopped, he would have died. I would say Mace had the upper hand until Anakin cut his hand off.

I disagree with the idea of Mace being better in Force defense, Glentract. Mace was using his saber and struggling under it. Yoda caught Sidious' lightning at point blank range and procceeded to whup Sid's ass in a Force tug-o-war. Yoda is the only Jedi who does this.

Yoda was still blasted off the Pod while Mace reflected it into Sidious' face, forceing Sidious to stop or be killed by his own attack.

No, Glentract. I've watched that fight many times. Yoda was winning the force battle despite being shocked first and initially being at a disadvantage and off balance. He turned the wave back on Sidious (Who made a horrid face because he was being pwned) and the resulting shockwave from the energy threw them both back. Sidious had a rail on his side. Yoda on the edge didn't. Yoda WON the battle and horribly so. A far cry from Mace struggling under Sidious' blast despite using a lightsaber and going "No... he... is... the... traitor!" and then he reflects it back and Sidious just... gives up.

So no, Yoda wasn't "blasted off the pod".

Yoda was blasted off the pod. Yoda did win their little engagement, but Sidious wasn't to the point of nearly dying after it. Mace had the lightsaber and is struggling but not a whole lot. Sidious was dying when he was using it against Mace, not when he was using it against Yoda. Sidious stopped the attack because continuing it would have killed him, he didn't just give up.

Yoda was blasted off the pod.

So was Sidious. This proves nothing for Force Defense.


Yoda did win their little engagement, but Sidious wasn't to the point of nearly dying after it.

And Sidious wasn't to the point of dying after being zapped by Mace. If anything he was faking his weakness, as is totally ****ing obvious when he shouts and shocks Mace the very moment he's disarmed. And then he got up and had no problems walking around, talking, and thinking for someone who as you're saying almost died.


Mace had the lightsaber and is struggling but not a whole lot.

He was struggling more than Yoda was. Mace was visibly struggling and pushing forward with the lightning to maintain balance. Yoda, with his bare hands was not doing so and if anything steeled himself and totally redirected it.


Sidious was dying when he was using it against Mace, not when he was using it against Yoda. Sidious stopped the attack because continuing it would have killed him, he didn't just give up.

Again, he was NOT dying. And if it would have killed him, he sure as hell acted fine five seconds later.

That goes against Lucas's saying, unless you want to pick at his diction (which would be the best idea IMO), which states that Mace overpowered Sids. So what's canon? Anakin literally saving the day for Sids, or Palps playing possum?

Well, Mace technically DID overpower SIdious when he won the saberlock.

Exactly, arguing about diction. That being said, Lucas might have meant that Mace won the fight, and some peoples here ARE stating that. Then again, he might have simply meant physically overpowered (which I agree with), which is apparently what you believe.

Plus that whole "but Sidious got back up again with apparent ease."

That means shit. I could be fighting with nunchucks with Jackie Chan, a few flicks and he's got me disarmed, but does that mean I'm out of breath and energy? No.

Mace disarmed Sidious. He did it before Anakin entered the room. Why would Sidious throw the fight if Anakin's not there to be fooled into thinking Mace is gonna kill Palp's out of cold blood? Wasn't that the whole argument of the Sidious fanboys? Believing their PimpDaddy took a dive to inspire Anakin's sympathy?

Mace one, dive or no dive, and Palpy would be in two if Anakin hadn't interfered. Whoever dies in a fight is the loser, plain and simple.

I just watched the ROTS movie, and I listened to the commentary on the Palpatine vs Mace and Yoda vs Palpatine battle.

1. Lucas said specifically that Mace did overpower Palpatine. He did not say that he did it legitimately and that Palpatine wasn't faking. Indeed, Lucas even 'confirmed' that Palpatine was faking when he stopped the assault on Mace.

2. Lucas does NOT comment on the validity of the battle. He does not state, or imply, either way that Anakin's arrival was mere coincidence. He leaves it, once more, open to the fans to interpret. Thusly meaning there is no right answer.

3. Now. You will recall that when Anakin was sitting in the council's chamber, he heard Palpatine say something to him: "If the Jedi kill me, my knowledge dies with me." Now. Palpatine said 'NO' such thing during their banter when Anakin exposed him as a Sith Lord. So, it could not have been Anakin recalling one of Palpatine's statements. Indeed, the more obvious answer is that Palpatine used a form of 'telepathy' (there is no other word for it) to simply remind Anakin that Padme would not survive without him.

Also. Since Palpatine is so attuned to the Force to inhabit the planet as the Jedi do without detection, I assume it is very safe to assume that he is able to sense a single Force user entering the Chancellory. Also note that 'before' Anakin stepped into the building, Mace was gaining NO leverage on Palpatine, and was indeed being pushed back, only able to 'defend' against Sidious. Then, mysteriously, when Anakin steps one foot into the building, Mace slowly gets the upper hand. Anakin IS, in fact, in the office when Palpatine is kicked. He is in the 'main' office, on the way down to Palpatine's quarters, a mere hallway away. So, indeed.

Sidious either planned this when Anakin told him he'd inform the Council, or it's damn good coincidence. And let's be honest here. When has 'coincidence' been a regular factor in Star Wars?

This is pretty even, I have to say Sidious and Dooku for the reasons escape already put up.

Originally posted by Escape81
I just watched the ROTS movie, and I listened to the commentary on the Palpatine vs Mace and Yoda vs Palpatine battle.

1. Lucas said specifically that Mace did overpower Palpatine. He did not say that he did it legitimately and that Palpatine wasn't faking. Indeed, Lucas even 'confirmed' that Palpatine was faking when he stopped the assault on Mace.

2. Lucas does NOT comment on the validity of the battle. He does not state, or imply, either way that Anakin's arrival was mere coincidence. He leaves it, once more, open to the fans to interpret. Thusly meaning there is no right answer.

3. Now. You will recall that when Anakin was sitting in the council's chamber, he heard Palpatine say something to him: "If the Jedi kill me, my knowledge dies with me." Now. Palpatine said 'NO' such thing during their banter when Anakin exposed him as a Sith Lord. So, it could not have been Anakin recalling one of Palpatine's statements. Indeed, the more obvious answer is that Palpatine used a form of 'telepathy' (there is no other word for it) to simply remind Anakin that Padme would not survive without him.

Also. Since Palpatine is so attuned to the Force to inhabit the planet as the Jedi do without detection, I assume it is very safe to assume that he is able to sense a single Force user entering the Chancellory. Also note that 'before' Anakin stepped into the building, Mace was gaining NO leverage on Palpatine, and was indeed being pushed back, only able to 'defend' against Sidious. Then, mysteriously, when Anakin steps one foot into the building, Mace slowly gets the upper hand. Anakin IS, in fact, in the office when Palpatine is kicked. He is in the 'main' office, on the way down to Palpatine's quarters, a mere hallway away. So, indeed.

Sidious either planned this when Anakin told him he'd inform the Council, or it's damn good coincidence. And let's be honest here. When has 'coincidence' been a regular factor in Star Wars? ANH. That's coincidence, so's ESB.

ROTJ though, that was all planned.

Yoda was able to sneak up on Sidious, though. ONe inconsistancy with Sids having good sense. Then again, he sensed Anakin was being owned on Mustafar, so so much for that idea.

First, stop being rude some of you or you'll be banned.Second,WTF!!!!!!!
How could you even imagine Yoda losing any of the fights, they could last for some time but he would surely win!For Mace, I'm not sure,he could lose to Dooku.

Originally posted by Escape81
1. Lucas said specifically that Mace did overpower Palpatine. He did not say that he did it legitimately and that Palpatine wasn't faking. Indeed, Lucas even 'confirmed' that Palpatine was faking when he stopped the assault on Mace.

Here Lucas own words:
"This sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine uses his powers and tries to destroy Mace then Mace reflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it was always that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later."

Now what do you want to interprete here in Sidious favor ? Mace overpowered him in the lightsaber fight. Period. Sidious wasn't able to destroy Mace with force lightning because Mace had his lightsaber to reflect it. Period.

The original scene would have looked the same way with the exception that Sidious would have continued lightning on Mace and Anakin would have cut Mace lightsaber off thereby taking the protection against Sidious lightning away.

The only thing that Sidious pretended or faked was not to have any force power left and this was added with the reason to have Anakin turn to the Dark Side at this point later own. But the things mentioned clearly state that Sidious was unable to kill Mace with both - lightsaber and his force powers. And this is what Lucas tells us so there is no room for interpretation / speculation here.



What do you want to interpret here ? I've argued that point in the EP III forum with DarthSith19: It doesn't matter for the validity of the fight if the arrival of Anakin was coincidence or Sidious sensed it. He had no reason to fake something in the lightsaber fight because Anakin couldn't have seen it and Mace had the chance to kill Sidious in two situations:

- one can be seen directly after we see Anakin arriving at the Senate building. Mace and Sidious are fighting in the middle of the room and they stop for a short moment: Watch their positions. Mace has his blade above his head ready to place a strike and waits. Sidious has his blade on his right side pointing down: He was defenceless. Mace could have killed him but didn't do it instead he waited to place his next strike.

- second situation is when they are fighting in front of the window. Sidious goes down on his knees having his saber in front of him while Mace is behind him. If Mace had simply turned around there he would have cut Sidious head off. Again he didn't do it.

Now let's try to use some logic here. If Sidious wanted to make the fight look like as if he had lost it, he would have simply dominated the fight and then throw his weapon away or pretend to lose it when Mace places a hit on it (pretending not to be strong enough to parry) but there is no way that Sidious - Mr. Coward - would have risked his life without any reason (nobody there to see it). And there is no way he could have "faked" losing his lightsaber by having Mace kicking it out of his hand.



a) The line is "You do know...don't you...if the Jedi destroy me any chances saving her will be lost".

b) Sorry...but there is another line in the original script that Anakin hears in the Council room...
PADME: I truly, deeply love you. Before I die. I want you to know.

So unless you want to tell me that Padme suddenly has developed some foresight ability (she never believed that she's gonna die) and some telepathic abilities I won't believe that Palpatine used telepathy to contact Anakin. Second reason is: If he wanted Anakins help he would have contacted him earlier instead of risking his life against Mace or simply give Anakin another - more direct - line.



a)
Being able to remain undected has nothing to do with the ability to sense force users. I wouldn't draw any conclusions like that here.

b)
Mace won the "saberlock" with Sidious and this is before Anakin entered the building and as I stated: Mace could have killed Sidious in two situations where it wasn't usefull for Sidious to fake something. It doesn't matter if he sensed Anakin coming or not - he could have been dead without Anakin having the chance to rescue him. Do you really think he would have risked his life without any effect (since nobody was there to see it) ? And he didn't even need that situation to make Anakin join him. Anakin wanted something from him - and therefore he was totally at Sidious mercy even before having helped to kill Mace.



You can keep on speculating on this point but it has no effect on the fight Sidious vs Mace. Mace could have killed Sidious two times before Anakin was even close to them, there is no way faking to get you weapon kicked out of your hand by another fighter and Lucas simply told us that Sidious wasn't able to defeat Mace with a lightsaber nor was he able to kill Mace with his force lightning (and he tried to do it).

Perhaps so. And, I didn't necessarily say that things went according to 'plan', either. What I am saying is that Sidious's words to Anakin in the Chamber were not said earlier. And it is possible for a Jedi or a Sith to detect the presence of another Force-user in their mind. Perhaps this is some variant of that.

Glentract, this is for you. I will use mostly(only, if possible) what you said and facts, sound good? Here it is.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
First, Dooku is weaker than Sidious in the force. I think this is universeally accepted.

I agree. In Ep. II, Dooku says that Yoda and his contest cannot be decided by force powers, meaning that they are equal. This would mean that Sidious is more powerful in the force than Yoda. Willing to bet that Yoda got alot better over those few years between AOTC and ROTS? I thought you would.

"The nearly traditional Glentract Math...
Dooku beat Mace when Mace was at most 40. Thats the OLDEST Mace could have been. That would give Dooku 30 Years on him. Nearly double the experince. In ROTS, Mace is 53, Dooku 83. Before, Dooku's experince was 75% greater than Mace's, now it's only ~56%. A significant decrease of advantage for Dooku in the experince department.
Remember, the above calculation assumes a best case senario for Dooku. "

Now, Yoda is older than Sidious, that means that Sidious would have proporionately more time to become more powerful over those few years. Your arguments say that Yoda would beat Sidious, but prove it wrong, ironic, really.

Let me finish by saying that it is nothing personal, I just wanted to point that out

i think the fight between palpatine and yoda came down simply to there was a railing on palpatine's side and not one one yoda's. Yoda won that force battle before he got thrown off the pod, but even the winner gets thrown (obi, anakin, hitting both sides of the room) still, how lame was it for yoda to scratch the pod and fall? this is yoda! thrown to the bottem maybe, but he clearly had time to recover from being thrown, and he just fell. why no force leap back on top of the pod?

Originally posted by jollyjim311
I agree. In Ep. II, Dooku says that Yoda and his contest cannot be decided by force powers, meaning that they are equal. This would mean that Sidious is more powerful in the force than Yoda. Willing to bet that Yoda got alot better over those few years between AOTC and ROTS? I thought you would.

This doesn't necessarily mean they are equal. That is obviously Dooku being arrogant. Yoda had a much easier time doing that than Dooku did.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Now, Yoda is older than Sidious, that means that Sidious would have proporionately more time to become more powerful over those few years. Your arguments say that Yoda would beat Sidious, but prove it wrong, ironic, really.

It would also seem that Yoda's species develops slower. It is doubtful that Yoda was even a Knight by the time he was fifty, just because that is the way that his species evolved. Wookies, for example, take dozens of years to mature. You can't compare the between species.

Sound like a bad cover up for a big hole in your logic. Plus, if Yoda ages slower, then wouldn't Sidious be able to learn alot more in those years between AOTC and ROTS?

The ongoing Dooku v Sidious debate is still in question, as well as their stance against Yoda.

a) I've reviewed Yoda v. Sidious and Yoda v. Dooku numerous times. Then, I watched both of them with the commentary on. I'm curious how people get the notion that Dooku is above and beyond Sidious in the art of dueling. Where one can argue that they are equals, or that Dooku is slightly better, I do not see how one can stretch it that far.

Some say it's because Mace defeated Sidious, and Dooku once defeated Mace. Again, this was years before TPM. Dooku was older; and had a lot more experience compared to Mace. So, once again, Windu's margin for improvement extended far beyond Dooku's. Whether or not he reached that potential is unknown. One cannot say how they'd fare if Dooku were to attack Mace in ROTS.

b) In Yoda v. Sidious, the lightsaber duel is 'NOT' clearly in Yoda's favor. If one will observe carefully, one will see that both are evenly matched. Yoda is not on the offensive and on the advantage. It fluxuates. They movie into the arena, and 'BOTH' at various times take the offensive. But neither can crash through the others' defenses. Not even Yoda. It is, in fact, the same as Yoda v. Dooku. Yoda miraculously defeats his opponents in their respective saber locks, but that's the closest he gets to actually being called superior. Sidious goes on a lunatic frenzy, where as Dooku does the same.

Some also say that since Dooku challenged Yoda; that he was also obviously superior to Sidious. Not true. Dooku looked to challenge his master to try and prove his superiority. While Dooku did indeed put Yoda to the test, and fought to the point where Yoda had difficulty, it does not make him any superior to Sidious; as the Dark Lord himself did the same. Dooku's arrogance drove him to challenge Yoda; Sidious did it out of the fact that Yoda was blocking the escape way. Sidious was using mental rationale. Why, if one were bestowed power over the very galaxy, would one stay and fight an opponent who is every bit one's equal?

Sidious did the smart thing.

c) Dooku and Sidious in the Force. Dooku initiated all attacks on Yoda. Yoda deflected them all, and for most of them, put them off to the side. You will notice, for example, when Dooku tries to drop the debris from the roof onto Yoda, that Yoda turns it away instead of casting it back. Once more, Yoda was looking, above all else, to 'KILL' Sidious. He would have killed Dooku if necessary, but he didn't seem to intend to do it. He only deflected the lightning back when he knew that Dooku was prepared to try and kill him.

Now. Notice. When Dooku rips the debris and metal from the roof, he does so with great effort and concentration. Notice also when Sidious rips pods from their moors, he does so by throwing three at a time. The pods are equally proportionate to the debris, and Dooku had difficulty chucking ONE at Yoda. Sidious chucked THREE with ease. Sorry, but there is more evidence that proves Sidious to be the superior Force user, with subtle moves like that.

d) I also love how people excuse Sidious landing a blow on Yoda (which Dooku never did, I'm sorry to say) on the fact that:

"Dooku's battle was shorter than Sidious's. He didn't have time to do it'.

Pardon me, but I recall Sidious nailing Yoda LESS than a minute after Yoda entered the room. Dooku never nailed Yoda in the entire duel. Sidious nailed him once, and disarmed him, we have seen. Did Dooku? Nope. Not even on Vjun, where the Dark Side was dominant.

e) Dooku is older than Sidious, that's true. He has been a Force user for longer, also true. But as we've seen, Yoda is 900 years old and could not outright defeat Sidious or Dooku. And while Yoda seems slightly stronger than those two, he is FAR older than either of them. If age were so important, he'd be able to crush both of them with his pinky. But he can't. Age is important. But not too important. Some people are simply naturally stronger Force-users than others.

f) Sidious is obviously the greater Dark Side practitioner. He is far beyond Dooku there. So immersed in it that he is able to shield himself from the great Jedi like Mace and Yoda, while occupying the same damn room. I've seen where some have argued that 'Dooku was already a Jedi, people knew his 'signature'. Perhaps. I am NOT denying the possibility that Dooku was able to do it. But also possible, equally so, is that Dooku is UNABLE to do it.

g) So. We've seen that in the Force, Sidious is superior. And in saber skills, Dooku isn't far above Sidious. If Sidious can contend with Yoda in equal speed as Dooku could, and fight the same way, gain advantages, gain the offensive, and still have a strong defense that Yoda can't break through, I don't see Dooku 'owning' Sidious in saber skills. If Sidious can hold Yoda The 'Tazmanian Devil' at bay, he can do it for Yoda. Which means that it will probably come down to a battle with the Force. Which Sidious 'will win'.

h) As for the Mace and Sidious thing. I've also heard that 'Mace put Sidious on his ass in less than a minute'. Hmm. Not true. More like three. And as I've seen around here, the battles with lightning fast blows will end quickly. And considering how (unlike Obi-Wan and Anakin), Mace and Sidious battled only through saber skills, I'd have to agree.

In conclusion. I see nothing that indicates Dooku as superior to his master. If he is, it would be in saber ability, and it would only be slight. As for Force-ability (especially offensive), he is lacking when compared to his master.

It probably seems I'm on a Dooku-hunt, to slander him. I'm not. But when some people hold him on such a high pedestal and assume he could wipe the floor with the man he called his 'MASTER' and whom he 'FEARED', I tend to get a little defensive. I like Dooku. But damn, people. You all need to realize Dooku's done nothing that warrants him the title of being able to defeat Sidious, let alone be labeled stronger.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Sound like a bad cover up for a big hole in your logic. Plus, if Yoda ages slower, then wouldn't Sidious be able to learn alot more in those years between AOTC and ROTS?

Seems like you should try to use some logic rather than telling people what you believe is hole's in theirs.

Yoda has had a lot more time to learn before that. Yoda was even father ahead of Sidious in AOTC than he was in ROTS. What does that matter?

Some say it's because Mace defeated Sidious, and Dooku once defeated Mace. Again, this was years before TPM. Dooku was older; and had a lot more experience compared to Mace. So, once again, Windu's margin for improvement extended far beyond Dooku's. Whether or not he reached that potential is unknown. One cannot say how they'd fare if Dooku were to attack Mace in ROTS.

I love how people mention the fact that Mace apparently gained this horseload of Experience of "fighting" throughout the years from their fight, but one of the only Lightsaber fights he had was with Sidious? Let us begin: AOTC, he kills a shitload of droids and decapitates a Bounty Hunter. In the CW cartoons, he lands on top of ship and disables a couple, he then kills more droids. The books: He has a few training fights with his pupils and then gets into two or three fights that last less than a few seconds for the fact that the are not going all out on each other. Now, over the years, Mace has been the only one sword training and has an overall margin of some superior power that he suddenly gained from a few years.
By the end of TPM, Dooku had swayed over to the Dark side, where he had learned a newer technique of the Force, which can prove to be a far more devastating power than the Light side (Proven when the Jedi basically get f*cked over on ROTS and the Dark side virtually wins, besides Anakin getting his shizzle all fizzled). Dooku has been able to fully administer and unleash the raw power of his form my applying emotion and infuriation. He has also had an Experience Margin in his older age. I can imagine all the Dark side Practice he had to go through for people to argue that he was better than Sidious. He would have had to train damn hard to already have such a dangerous and powerful knowledge of usage of the force, correct? Well, maybe he ALSO gained a grand canyon full of experience while Mace did. I am sure he didn't sit around in an office not practicing, or he wouldn't be as good as he is.


Some also say that since Dooku challenged Yoda; that he was also obviously superior to Sidious. Not true. Dooku looked to challenge his master to try and prove his superiority. While Dooku did indeed put Yoda to the test, and fought to the point where Yoda had difficulty, it does not make him any superior to Sidious; as the Dark Lord himself did the same. Dooku's arrogance drove him to challenge Yoda; Sidious did it out of the fact that Yoda was blocking the escape way. Sidious was using mental rationale. Why, if one were bestowed power over the very galaxy, would one stay and fight an opponent who is every bit one's equal?

Sidious did the smart thing.

No, Sidious knew that Yoda could hand his ass to him. Funny thing: I didn't see Sidious trying to leave his office before he got pushed into his office chair.

Dooku and Sidious

-Sidious tried to run.
-Dooku stayed to fight.

----

-Sidious and Yoda stalemated.
-Dooku and Yoda stalemated.


Notice something?

c) Dooku and Sidious in the Force. Dooku initiated all attacks on Yoda. Yoda deflected them all, and for most of them, put them off to the side. You will notice, for example, when Dooku tries to drop the debris from the roof onto Yoda, that Yoda turns it away instead of casting it back. Once more, Yoda was looking, above all else, to 'KILL' Sidious. He would have killed Dooku if necessary, but he didn't seem to intend to do it. He only deflected the lightning back when he knew that Dooku was prepared to try and kill him.

Umm... Sidious got one Lightning ravage on Yoda... Uh... YAY! Yoda could have deflected it. He sat there and went "WTF? You got nerve!". He probably wasn't expecting Sidious' first shot either.

Now. Notice. When Dooku rips the debris and metal from the roof, he does so with great effort and concentration. Notice also when Sidious rips pods from their moors, he does so by throwing three at a time. The pods are equally proportionate to the debris, and Dooku had difficulty chucking ONE at Yoda. Sidious chucked THREE with ease. Sorry, but there is more evidence that proves Sidious to be the superior Force user, with subtle moves like that.

So now they automatically weigh the same because you say so? Well, that's sunk. For all you know, Dooku's debris could have weigh 700LBS where as Sidious' could have weighed 500LBS. No proof.

d) I also love how people excuse Sidious landing a blow on Yoda (which Dooku never did, I'm sorry to say) on the fact that:

"Dooku's battle was shorter than Sidious's. He didn't have time to do it'.

Pardon me, but I recall Sidious nailing Yoda LESS than a minute after Yoda entered the room. Dooku never nailed Yoda in the entire duel. Sidious nailed him once, and disarmed him, we have seen. Did Dooku? Nope. Not even on Vjun, where the Dark Side was dominant.

Sidious nailed him twice? Once! And it was a suprise attack. Did you see the look on Yoda's face? No time to react. He was suprised. Yoda was prepared for Dooku. Yoda also probably didn't know of Sidious' power either. He just met him as a Sith Lord, for crying out loud!

Disarmed him? Is that the part where Yoda absorbs it and unleashes and attack so powerful, it has Sidious' face in a worry? I think so.

e) Dooku is older than Sidious, that's true. He has been a Force user for longer, also true. But as we've seen, Yoda is 900 years old and could not outright defeat Sidious or Dooku. And while Yoda seems slightly stronger than those two, he is FAR older than either of them. If age were so important, he'd be able to crush both of them with his pinky. But he can't. Age is important. But not too important. Some people are simply naturally stronger Force-users than others.

Exactly, but Age does indeed grant experience.

Wanna hear something funny? When Sidious came to reach Dooku's age, he was limping around on a Cane. Let me guess.... The Dark side ate at him? Wouldn't the Dark Side make him an ultra powerful being of great power like some previous Sith Lords? Or maybe old age just got to Sidious indeed.

f) Sidious is obviously the greater Dark Side practitioner. He is far beyond Dooku there. So immersed in it that he is able to shield himself from the great Jedi like Mace and Yoda, while occupying the same damn room. I've seen where some have argued that 'Dooku was already a Jedi, people knew his 'signature'. Perhaps. I am NOT denying the possibility that Dooku was able to do it. But also possible, equally so, is that Dooku is UNABLE to do it.

That has nothing to do with Force. That was Sidious intellegence that played a part. The Jedi are not super gods, and they do not know everything that surrounds them. And now Dooku all of the sudden doesn't hold the ability to cloud the mind vision of people? Fess up some proof of this, other than the fact that "Sidious was Master, and Dooku are apprentice".

g) So. We've seen that in the Force, Sidious is superior. And in saber skills, Dooku isn't far above Sidious. If Sidious can contend with Yoda in equal speed as Dooku could, and fight the same way, gain advantages, gain the offensive, and still have a strong defense that Yoda can't break through, I don't see Dooku 'owning' Sidious in saber skills. If Sidious can hold Yoda The 'Tazmanian Devil' at bay, he can do it for Yoda. Which means that it will probably come down to a battle with the Force. Which Sidious 'will win'.

Different people, Different Game. That would be like saying "Kenobi could own Dooku because Kenobi owned Anakin, and Anakin owned Dooku."

The funny part is: Dooku could rip Kenobi to shreds. You cannot use the Criss-Cross Analogy, because it just doesn't fit into the Logic Radius. So, saying just because Sidious defe..... "Stalemated" with Yoda better than Dooku did means that Dooku automatically loses to Sidious in a Lightsaber fight? RIGHTO! Dooku was a complete MASTER of his old fashioned form. He is considered one of the greatest Lightsaber duelists of his time.

h) As for the Mace and Sidious thing. I've also heard that 'Mace put Sidious on his ass in less than a minute'. Hmm. Not true. More like three. And as I've seen around here, the battles with lightning fast blows will end quickly. And considering how (unlike Obi-Wan and Anakin), Mace and Sidious battled only through saber skills, I'd have to agree.

It was around a minute. Sidious got dropped by Mace. GL says it on the DVD. Mace basically defeated Sidious fair and square.

In conclusion. I see nothing that indicates Dooku as superior to his master. If he is, it would be in saber ability, and it would only be slight. As for Force-ability (especially offensive), he is lacking when compared to his master.

I disagree. Dooku could be just as powerful as Sidious in the force.

It probably seems I'm on a Dooku-hunt, to slander him. I'm not. But when some people hold him on such a high pedestal and assume he could wipe the floor with the man he called his 'MASTER' and whom he 'FEARED', I tend to get a little defensive. I like Dooku. But damn, people. You all need to realize Dooku's done nothing that warrants him the title of being able to defeat Sidious, let alone be labeled stronger.

Like I said, it is possible Sidious feared Dooku, or Dooku feared Sidious. Dooku has never mentioned a fear for Sidious, let alone ever cowered to Sidious. In the history of SW, Apprentices have been known to betray their Masters and whoop their asses. Do not be fooled by titles and ranks.

Like it said in Revelations, Dooku wanted to overthrow Sidious, but Sidious was smarter. That doesn't make him more powerful.

Originally posted by Escape81
Some say it's because Mace defeated Sidious, and Dooku once defeated Mace. Again, this was years before TPM. Dooku was older; and had a lot more experience compared to Mace. So, once again, Windu's margin for improvement extended far beyond Dooku's. Whether or not he reached that potential is unknown. One cannot say how they'd fare if Dooku were to attack Mace in ROTS.


The real point here is: Mace did practice Vaapad for 27 years at the point Dooku defeated him. Vaapad is the completion of Juyo which is probably the form that Sidious was using (seeing that Maul used this form and he was trained by Sidious).

So if Dooku can take a lightsaber prodigy with 27 years time of practice in a lightsaber style that is the completion of the style Sidious used how would he not be able to take Sidious himself considering the fact that Sidious had a political career running for half of his life and therefore not that much time for training.



According to the script Yoda disarmed Sidious before Sidious started throwing pods at him. So he was superior. And I personally think it's quite useless to compare the fights here:

a)
Yoda and Dooku were fighting on equal ground while Yoda had to jump around outside of the pod for most of the time against Sidious. Disadvantage on Yoda's side.

b)
Yoda's fighting style requires a lot of space as far as we have seen in AotC. In the ROTS duel with Sidious he had less space than he had while fighting Dooku. Another disadvantage for Yoda.

c)
Yet even with this two disadvantages Yoda disarmed Sidious in the same amount of time he forced Dooku to flee.





I'm pretty sure that Yoda didn't want to kill Dooku but what does that proove here ? Again the situations aren't compareable. Dooku threw stuff at Yoda across the entire room and we don't know the weight of the objects. Yoda put them aside. Sidious dropped things down on Yoda without speeding them up and this by any means requires less force power then accelareting them to hit somebody (this is what Dooku did).

And the only situation Dooku had to use real effort was when he dopped parts of the ceiling on Yoda. Dooku ripped a part of a static object lose to throw it down on Yoda. Sidious was throwing pods at Yoda that were moveable and just hold on the Senate Chambers walls. And we still don't know how much weight the objects thrown have.



Sidious landed two surprise attacks on Yoda (first when Yoda entered the office, second when disarming Yoda). Dooku had no situation where he could have surprised Yoda.



When you have a closer look at TPM, Obi-Wan wonders about Anakin's force potential because it's exceeding Yoda's. So Yoda was the person with the greatest force potential until Anakin has shown up.
And you ignoring the fact here that the Dark Side makes people strong faster. In Dark Rendevouz Dooku things about Yoda going dark and states he would waste Sidious in the blink of an eye. In fact Yoda defeated them both in "force battles" despite the fact that they both had chosen the "fast path to power". If Yoda ever had the intention to kill somebody with his force powers (using the Dark Side) Dooku and Sidious would have been screwed.



Far beyond Dooku ? On the ocassions where we have seen them using force lightning they seem to be about equal. The "shielding force presence" thing is nice but useless in Dooku's case. So why would he bother to do something like that ? That doesn't prove that Sidious is the greater force user.



In a battle of force powers Sidious won't be able to overcome Dooku. Considering lightsaber skills Dooku had far more practice then Sidious, he was using the superior duelling style and he didn't get disarmed by Yoda which happened to Sidious while Yoda had some disadvantages compared to the fight with Dooku. I still say Dooku is superior in lightsaber fighting compared to Sidious.



Now you're leaping to conclusions. For offensive powers we have seen that Dooku isn't able to overwhelm Obi-Wan and Yoda from across the room where Sidious isn't able to do the same thing to Yoda and Mace at point black range. Where does that tell us that Sidious is superior to Dooku in offensive force powers ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
The real point here is: Mace did practice Vaapad for 27 years at the point Dooku defeated him. Vaapad is the completion of Juyo which is probably the form that Sidious was using (seeing that Maul used this form and he was trained by Sidious).

So if Dooku can take a lightsaber prodigy with 27 years time of practice in a lightsaber style that is the completion of the style Sidious used how would he not be able to take Sidious himself considering the fact that Sidious had a political career running for half of his life and therefore not that much time for training.

27 years? Are you sure of that? I know I estimated 27, but it was a best-case senario for Dooku. Does anyone else have a better number(as in more likely)?

I'm afraid I agree with Nai on this. He's made some good points.

Second, I'd like to point out that Dooku DOES show instances of shielding his presence from others:

- In The Cestus Deception, Assajj Ventress uses a meditation technique that allows her to remain effectively invisible to Obi-Wan in the Force. She learned this from Dooku who had mastered it.

- Dooku meets Sidious on Coruscant, a planet with a jedi temple on it. Neither were sensed. This happens multiple times.

- Dooku walks right up to Jedi all the time and isn't sensed.

When did Dooku ever walk up to a Jedi and they didn't sense him?

ROTS. Guy walks into the room and they had no clue.

How did I forget that? THat is just pathetic on my part, I just saw that seen less than twenty minutes ago(watching ep3 currently).

It's on the INvisible Hand. Now I know jedi sensing tends to reply more on dramatic neccessity than anything, but he walked into a room with two battle droids and wasn't noticed except for the guy looking right at the door (Palpatine). I'm guessing the droids were lubed up and everyone had rubber bottoms on their soles.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
27 years? Are you sure of that? I know I estimated 27, but it was a best-case senario for Dooku. Does anyone else have a better number(as in more likely)?

Mace started using Vaapad at the age of 13 in TPM he's 40 years old = 27 years of Vaapad training. The last fight between him and Dooku happened either directly before TPM or directly after TPM. So the "27 years" are very close to "reality".

I simply don't see a chance that Sidious could have developed greater sword mastery than Mace or Dooku considering the fact that Sidious had a political career running (therefore less time for training) and no real opponents.

Sidious would have probably been a Niman adept. He wouldn't have had time to develop his skills that much, as Nai said.

I love how everyone credits Sidious's victories to 'surprise' attacks.

Nai, I've reviewed your arguments against Darth Somebody, where you stated that Palpatine defeated the Jedi Masters in his office because he caught them by surprise. This isn't true. Sidious stood up, yanked his saber into his hand, tossed a one-liner, and then leapt over the desk. And then, to top it all off, he didn't even attack them at first. He growled and then darted forward, swinging.

Surprise Attack ? Nope.

Now. Mace and Sidious. After Palpatine killed Kit Fisto, they sparred. Palpatine was on the offensive, and pushed Mace back through the corridor into the main office. This was longer than a minute for the sad few who like to think he was put on his ass. And, Sorgo, I agree that Mace won 'fair-and-square' because Lucas said he was overpowered. But at the same time, I never brought up the validity of the duel. I said that Mace didn't 'easily' put Palpatine on his ass. And not under a minute.

Yoda v. Sidious -

Yoda walks in. He incapacitates the Red Guard, and banters with the Emperor. The Emperor retorts, slowly (!) raises his hands, and then blasts the lightning. Yoda moves to block it with his right hand, but is overpowered and smashed into the wall. I'm sorry to 'burst' your bubble but Yoda was legitimately nailed. He simply (like Palpatine with Mace) got overconfident and suffered for it.

Surprise Attack ? Nope.

Palpatine dodges a pod that Yoda tossed back. He jumps down and lands in a pod far below, and looks around. Yoda flies up, lands on the side, and draws his saber. Palpatine reaches out and BLASTS the saber away. Yoda then proceeds to slowly block the lightning back off.

Surprise Attack ? Nope.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
I'm afraid I agree with Nai on this. He's made some good points.

Second, I'd like to point out that Dooku DOES show instances of shielding his presence from others:

- In The Cestus Deception, Assajj Ventress uses a meditation technique that allows her to remain effectively invisible to Obi-Wan in the Force. She learned this from Dooku who had mastered it.

- Dooku meets Sidious on Coruscant, a planet with a jedi temple on it. Neither were sensed. This happens multiple times.

- Dooku walks right up to Jedi all the time and isn't sensed.

Good points. I consent there. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

a) Sorgo, you 'have no proof' to insinuate that Sidious knew Yoda would have handed his ass to him. In fact, if he truly believed that, he wouldn't have fought at all, and simply tried even harder to escape. That theory is 'sunk'. He wouldn't have drawn sabers and gone to the Arena if he truly believed Yoda would crush him. Especially how Sidious isn't the 'going out fighting' type...

b) Indeed I do. Dooku went all out on Yoda to try and show his superiority. Sidious's main priority was to live. And they both still stalemated. And I could argue that Yoda wasn't trying to kill Dooku, even though we know he was for Sidious.

c) So you're telling me Yoda intentionally stood there and got blasted by Sidious ? Lol. No. Palpatine slowly (!) raised his hands and shot a burst of lightning at him. Yoda 'THEN' made a move to deflect it (maybe you, Sorgo, who likes to speak of Sidious's expressions, ought to look at Yoda's. It's reminiscent of "Oh, hell..." and was overpowered.

Also. Even one lightning burst is more than Dooku ever landed.

And again. If Yoda wasn't EXPECTING that, going in to fight the Dark Lord to the death, he's more arrogant than I ever realized.

d) I said 'proportionatly' the same size. At the same time, let's say Dooku's debris weighed 700 lbs and Sidious's weighed 500 lbs. He still ripped three pods out. So that's 1500 lbs to Dooku's 700. And the difference is? Dooku struggled.

e) Disarmed him. That was when he jumped to the pod and drew his saber to strike Sidious down, and Sidious reached a hand out, fired a burst, and knocked it away. He removed the weapon from Yoda's grasp. That's called 'disarming'.

And again. Yoda held the lightning at bay. And Sidious, in the end, did look very fearful. But seconds before that, Yoda was in agony trying to hold it off, if you look at HIS expression. Then, Sidious cackles, and it appears to me that motivates Yoda to nail the slimy bastard with his own lightning.

f) Hey, Sorgo... Erm... it was FOR SHOW. Or do you not recall, in ROTJ, when he was only in Vader and Luke's company, he DOESN'T USE THE DAMN CANE (!)

As for the rest.

1. I didn't deny Mace dropped Sidious. Read again.
2. Books are canon when they do not conflict with the movies. Dark Rendezvous doesn't, so it's canon. In Dark Rendezvous, Dooku muses that he fears Sidious. Sorry to burst your bubble.

In conclusion. I'm sorry for the pro-Dooku fans who assume, insinuate, or state Dooku would beat his master, let alone 'slaughter' him. Sidious is made out to be a poorer duelist than he actually is. If he can defend Yoda's attacks, he can sure as hell can for Dooku's. And, again, all evidence points that Sidious is the GREATER Force-user. Is he above and beyond Dooku? No. But neither is Dooku. Dooku has a 50 percent chance at best.

I think the hardest problem for pro-Sidious (To which I give Escape credit for putting up a good debate. We need more of this.) is one of appearances. Sidious is underhanded and never fights fair. The one time it appeared he fought fair (Or both if you consider his battling with Yoda on the pod saber-to-saber) he was put on his ass and owned. Again it's a matter of appearances. Dooku appears very capable. He is not visibly afraid of Yoda and goes right at him. Now, I don't know about you, but not even Anakin considered fighting Yoda and winning. This gives Dooku great dignitas on top of him being able to keep up an incredible speed (In which he handled Yoda much easier than Sidious handled Mace. Note the comparison there. Mace was slow and methodical in his approach while Sidious was enraged and aggressive, and yet Sidious was undone. Dooku's form relies even more on precision, experience, and just happens to be the best lightsaber style for... saber-to-saber.) Now What I'm getting at here is comparing Force powers is inconclusive. Force lightning is inconsistant. Dooku appears well capable of anything else Sidious did via the Force. If it boiled down to that, it could go either way. I think that's a safer bet than saying one or the other.

And back to the saber to saber part- Dooku is simply far more impressive in combat than Sidious is... this includes people with real life sword training (Nai) and people with perhaps less training but still good knowledge of the basics (yours truly). Sidious in a swordfight is outright horrible (Though no where on Qui-Gon's level) and while it was good enough for him via the plotline (Which neccessitated that he live) in a real fight he would get schooled.

Originally posted by Escape81
a) Sorgo, you 'have no proof' to insinuate that Sidious knew Yoda would have handed his ass to him. In fact, if he truly believed that, he wouldn't have fought at all, and simply tried even harder to escape. That theory is 'sunk'. He wouldn't have drawn sabers and gone to the Arena if he truly believed Yoda would crush him. Especially how Sidious isn't the 'going out fighting' type...

b) Indeed I do. Dooku went all out on Yoda to try and show his superiority. Sidious's main priority was to live. And they both still stalemated. And I could argue that Yoda wasn't trying to kill Dooku, even though we know he was for Sidious.

c) So you're telling me Yoda intentionally stood there and got blasted by Sidious ? Lol. No. Palpatine slowly (!) raised his hands and shot a burst of lightning at him. Yoda 'THEN' made a move to deflect it (maybe you, Sorgo, who likes to speak of Sidious's expressions, ought to look at Yoda's. It's reminiscent of "Oh, hell..." and was overpowered.

Also. Even one lightning burst is more than Dooku ever landed.

And again. If Yoda wasn't EXPECTING that, going in to fight the Dark Lord to the death, he's more arrogant than I ever realized.

d) I said 'proportionatly' the same size. At the same time, let's say Dooku's debris weighed 700 lbs and Sidious's weighed 500 lbs. He still ripped three pods out. So that's 1500 lbs to Dooku's 700. And the difference is? Dooku struggled.

e) Disarmed him. That was when he jumped to the pod and drew his saber to strike Sidious down, and Sidious reached a hand out, fired a burst, and knocked it away. He removed the weapon from Yoda's grasp. That's called 'disarming'.

And again. Yoda held the lightning at bay. And Sidious, in the end, did look very fearful. But seconds before that, Yoda was in agony trying to hold it off, if you look at HIS expression. Then, Sidious cackles, and it appears to me that motivates Yoda to nail the slimy bastard with his own lightning.

f) Hey, Sorgo... Erm... it was FOR SHOW. Or do you not recall, in ROTJ, when he was only in Vader and Luke's company, he DOESN'T USE THE DAMN CANE (!)

As for the rest.

1. I didn't deny Mace dropped Sidious. Read again.
2. Books are canon when they do not conflict with the movies. Dark Rendezvous doesn't, so it's canon. In Dark Rendezvous, Dooku muses that he fears Sidious. Sorry to burst your bubble.

In conclusion. I'm sorry for the pro-Dooku fans who assume, insinuate, or state Dooku would beat his master, let alone 'slaughter' him. Sidious is made out to be a poorer duelist than he actually is. If he can defend Yoda's attacks, he can sure as hell can for Dooku's. And, again, all evidence points that Sidious is the GREATER Force-user. Is he above and beyond Dooku? No. But neither is Dooku. Dooku has a 50 percent chance at best.



Sidious fried Yoda, and then went to approach him instead of leaving when he had the chance while Yoda was down. Yoda got up (Probably to Sidious' suprise) and Force "nailed" him across the room. Sidious has a nasty habit of underestimating his opponents and was suprised by Yoda's power. He didn't wanna get his ass whooped and have his plans float down the drain, so he tried to Jet.

Originally posted by Escape81
I love how everyone credits Sidious's victories to 'surprise' attacks.

Nai, I've reviewed your arguments against Darth Somebody, where you stated that Palpatine defeated the Jedi Masters in his office because he caught them by surprise. This isn't true. Sidious stood up, yanked his saber into his hand, tossed a one-liner, and then leapt over the desk. And then, to top it all off, he didn't even attack them at first. He growled and then darted forward, swinging.

Surprise Attack ? Nope.

Do you think they thought Sidious would jump over to them like he did it and simply attack him ? That was surprising them. So it was an surprise attack and then Sidious took advantage out of the situation that there wasn't much room for fighting.
He killed Agen first (and Kit + Mace couldn't attack him because Agen was in the way). Then Saesee (still being covered by Agen). Then he attacked Mace and Kit and basically outmanouvered them. I don't say that Sidious is a bad fighter or a bad duellist. Don't get me wrong here. But do you think he could have defeated them on an equal ground without taking any advantage out of the situation ?



The point here is - Mace had the opportunity to kill Sidious two times before they finally finished the duel. He didn't want to kill Sidious and it's harder to disarm somebody than simply kill him because you normally have less opportunities doing the first thing.
So Mace had a tough fight with Sidious but for the reason he wanted to disarm him. The duel could have went faster if Mace wanted to kill Sidious.




I'm pretty sure Yoda didn't think of being attacked like this because we know that he can deflect Sidious lightning. The same way Sidious didn't think about Yoda force pushing him across the room. And if you don't think about something happen and then it happens you are surprised. So it was a "surprise attack".



Again: Yoda had no effective defense against that force attack. Or let me say that in another way: He could not hold his lightsaber and at the same time reflect Sidious lightning. Again he didn't think about the possibility that Sidious might instantly attack him with force lightning again. So it was a "surprise attack". Yoda dropped the lightsaber and started deflecting the lightning.

The point is that Sidious, even when he had the advantages on his side, wasn't able to overcome Yoda where Dooku didn't manage to do that on equal ground. And from that point of view we can't say who's the better force user or duellist because the situations in which we have seen them fighting aren't compareable.

The only thing that helps here is logic using evidence and experience. And in this case it's a fact that Dooku:
- had longer times training force use and lightsaber combat compared to Sidious
- was using a superior lightsaber style
- has shown compareable qualities when it comes to the use of Dark Side abilities (force lightning)
- had more "real" action than Sidious. Sidious only trained Maul and Dooku so far while Dooku trained some Padawans (including Qui-Gon), some Dark Jedi (e.g. Asajj Ventress) and other people (Grievous, Durge).

And from this we can conclude that Dooku might be superior to Sidious in terms of lightsaber combat and force use (if only a little bit) while we have no evidence that Sidious is better with a lightsaber than Dooku or a much more powerful force user.

every1 keeps saying dooku can keep up with yoda because of their fight in ep 2, but if u will watch the film again not once did yoda go on the offensive, he just blocked flying rocks, absorbed lightning and bounced around the room, and then Dooku ran off, imagine what would have happend if yoda went on the offensive.

Nothing, considering Dooku can counter objects being thrown at him. Jedi don't use lightning. Yoda wasn't gonna risk throwing his lightsaber at him. It was up to a saber to saber battle, and to his credit Dooku was much more capable at fighting Yoda (and even counterattacked Yoda several times... oh, and that one spin attack of Yoda's which missed. That too.)

If that is the case, Nai, I suppose there is no such thing as legitimate fighting. You claimed that catching someone by surprise is when they do not expect your move. This is true; but this is a natural part of any real fighting. You can't get the advantage when your opponent is expecting your move. If Sidious is a 'dirty' fighter simply by leaping over his desk and wiping out duelists who are inferior to him (save for Mace), then I guess Dooku isn't a fair duelist, nor is Yoda, nor is Mace. There is no such thing as a fair duelist in Star Wars, by your definition.

Originally posted by Escape81
If that is the case, Nai, I suppose there is no such thing as legitimate fighting. You claimed that catching someone by surprise is when they do not expect your move. This is true; but this is a natural part of any real fighting. You can't get the advantage when your opponent is expecting your move. If Sidious is a 'dirty' fighter simply by leaping over his desk and wiping out duelists who are inferior to him (save for Mace), then I guess Dooku isn't a fair duelist, nor is Yoda, nor is Mace. There is no such thing as a fair duelist in Star Wars, by your definition.

If you're going to say it that way, then Sidious was just a cheap bastard all around. He captured his opponents mostly by suprise, which is usually the only reason he won. When he encountered powerful enough opponents that could counter his little suprises, it usually resulted in him getting beaten (Mace) or stalemating (Yoda).


Both of those Jedi countered his little suprises, and he didn't look oh so powerful when they did, either.


Don't get me wrong, I am not out to sack Sidious or nothing, but he isn't no god, and it is a high possibility that Dooku could kill him.

I'm going by Nai's definition, Sorgo, if you would do so kind as to read a bit closer. Review Nai's words. Perhaps he got a little confused or went overboard. If Dooku knew Anakin was going to amputate his arms, it would not have ended the same way, would it? If Dooku knew that Yoda was going to deflect all of his Force attacks, it wouldn't have been the same, would it? By Nai's words, all of these things are catching one's opponent by surprise.

When one's opponent expects one's move, one cannot secure victory. It is the OBJECTIVE to catch your opponent by surprise. Apparently, this is negative in Nai's eyes. Of course he has real-life fencing experience which I do not. But I hope he can sincerely elaborate on his choice of words

Originally posted by Escape81
I'm going by Nai's definition, Sorgo, if you would do so kind as to read a bit closer. Review Nai's words. Perhaps he got a little confused or went overboard. If Dooku knew Anakin was going to amputate his arms, it would not have ended the same way, would it? If Dooku knew that Yoda was going to deflect all of his Force attacks, it wouldn't have been the same, would it? By Nai's words, all of these things are catching one's opponent by surprise.

When one's opponent expects one's move, one cannot secure victory. It is the OBJECTIVE to catch your opponent by surprise. Apparently, this is negative in Nai's eyes. Of course he has real-life fencing experience which I do not. But I hope he can sincerely elaborate on his choice of words

I do not think you understand. Sidious' tactic of suprise is beyond a different level than that. He usually tries to begin his fights with suprising his opponents. When the other characters died, yeah, it was a suprise, but on a differential circumstance, so to say.


Sidious getting thrown into a Generator Shaft is a different kind of suprise than him starting the fight by flying at his opponents or shocking his unarmed opponents.

And, once more, I stated before that Yoda is the most powerful being in the PT. Yoda is. Not Sidious. If people were going around slandering and doubting Dooku as they do Sidious, I'd be right there on the frontline to defend him. The fact of the matter is, while Dooku is superior to Sidious in saber ability, it doesn't necessarily mean he'll pound through Sidious's defenses. Yoda had a hell of a time doing it, and he's quicker than and at points stronger (!) than either Dooku or Sidious.

So, no. Dooku has a 50 percent chance at best. Sidious has a good chance of defending and weathering himself from Dooku's attacks. And as people so fondly say, 'Sidious catches his opponents off guard'. If Anakin caught Dooku off guard, Sidious sure as hell has a chance.

Originally posted by Sorgo
I do not think you understand. Sidious' tactic of suprise is beyond a different level than that. He usually tries to begin his fights with suprising his opponents. When the other characters died, yeah, it was a suprise, but on a differential circumstance, so to say.


Sidious getting thrown into a Generator Shaft is a different kind of suprise than him starting the fight by flying at his opponents or shocking his unarmed opponents.

Again. This is why Sidious fights smarter than everyone else. He goes in looking to kill his opponents immediately (which, when dealing with the likes of Mace and Yoda is a smart thing, when compared to Dooku's arrogant superiority complex).

I understand. But then again, he did manage to catch a lot of Jedi by surprise. Including Yoda. So, again, he has a very BIG chance to do it to Dooku.

But thanks. You mean 'BEGINNING' by catching your opponent by surprise. I understand now. I'm just going to leave, lol.

50/50 chance. Sorry, pro-Dooku fans. No guarentee he wins. Same for Sidious.

Originally posted by Escape81
Again. This is why Sidious fights smarter than everyone else. He goes in looking to kill his opponents immediately (which, when dealing with the likes of Mace and Yoda is a smart thing, when compared to Dooku's arrogant superiority complex).

I understand. But then again, he did manage to catch a lot of Jedi by surprise. Including Yoda. So, again, he has a very BIG chance to do it to Dooku.

But thanks. You mean 'BEGINNING' by catching your opponent by surprise. I understand now. I'm just going to leave, lol.

50/50 chance. Sorry, pro-Dooku fans. No guarentee he wins. Same for Sidious.

Yeah, he wants to kill his opponents immediately because he is Cowardly. Who the hell is gonna wanna fight people that are more powerful than him, correct?


Why would he try to suprise Dooku? Why would he have to? Isn't he more powerful than Dooku? Why would he need a suprise?


If Sidious is so powerful, why does he need to suprise them all?

Originally posted by Escape81
And, once more, I stated before that Yoda is the most powerful being in the PT. Yoda is. Not Sidious. If people were going around slandering and doubting Dooku as they do Sidious, I'd be right there on the frontline to defend him. The fact of the matter is, while Dooku is superior to Sidious in saber ability, it doesn't necessarily mean he'll pound through Sidious's defenses. Yoda had a hell of a time doing it, and he's quicker than and at points stronger (!) than either Dooku or Sidious.

So, no. Dooku has a 50 percent chance at best. Sidious has a good chance of defending and weathering himself from Dooku's attacks. And as people so fondly say, 'Sidious catches his opponents off guard'. If Anakin caught Dooku off guard, Sidious sure as hell has a chance.

Dooku had a reason, though. If he fought Sidious, he probably would not hold back like he did with Anakin. And if Anakin caught Sidious off guard by throwing him into a shaft, what makes you think Dooku couldn't do the same?

Yoda is more powerful than Dooku and Sidious, yet he couldn't kill neither of them.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Yeah, he wants to kill his opponents immediately because he is Cowardly. Who the hell is gonna wanna fight people that are more powerful than him, correct?

Who wants to fight people that could cause him harm is more likely. GG was a coward(stated by GL, if you couldn't tell from watching him) yet he still defeated several Jedi in lightsaber combat who had more power than him.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Why would he try to suprise Dooku? Why would he have to? Isn't he more powerful than Dooku? Why would he need a suprise?

The more advantages the better.

Originally posted by Sorgo
If Sidious is so powerful, why does he need to suprise them all?

It's a better way to fight. It's called being smart and taking advantage of every possible advantage.

No, it's pure cowardice. He just can't comprehend being powerful enough to face them without surprising them. Dooku, Maul, Vader or the Jedi didn't kill their opponents by surprising them. Sidious seemed to have had to, or else he would have lost.


Sidious is obviously afraid to fight his opponents fairly. It isn't smart behaviour. He doesn't want his master plans ruined by him getting completely owned, so he has to use surprise techniques or he would get his ass kicked, which is kind of sad.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Dooku had a reason, though. If he fought Sidious, he probably would not hold back like he did with Anakin. And if Anakin caught Sidious off guard by throwing him into a shaft, what makes you think Dooku couldn't do the same?

They are fighting on the Death Star 2 by a reactor shaft and Sidious is going to be electrocuting some young child? No. Even if they were, Dooku couldn't. He isn't physically strong enough to lift Sidious over his head with one hand and carry him to a reactor shaft.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Yoda is more powerful than Dooku and Sidious, yet he couldn't kill neither of them.

Double-negative. You just implied Yoda killed both. lol. I'm just messing with you.

Anyway, Yoda was more power. He wasn't trying to kill Dooku, much like Dooku wasn't trying to kill Anakin. Sidious got a terrain advantage as well as thousands of approaching Clone Troopers. Yoda had to leave, but not becaus ehe was weaker.

Originally posted by Sorgo
No, it's pure cowardice. He just can't comprehend being powerful enough to face them without surprising them. Dooku, Maul, Vader or the Jedi didn't kill their opponents by surprising them. Sidious seemed to have had to, or else he would have lost.

How do you know this? Sidious came to you and told them he can't comprehend their power? Wow. Sidious didn't have to. The three Jedi in ROTS were not surprised. It took his several seconds after igniting a lightsaber before he actually attacked them.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Sidious is obviously afraid to fight his opponents fairly. It isn't smart behaviour. He doesn't want his master plans ruined by him getting completely owned, so he has to use surprise techniques or he would get his ass kicked, which is kind of sad.

He's not afraid, he choses to fight smarter than them. It is cowardice. Others have a sense of honor, he doesn't.

They are fighting on the Death Star 2 by a reactor shaft and Sidious is going to be electrocuting some young child? No. Even if they were, Dooku couldn't. He isn't physically strong enough to lift Sidious over his head with one hand and carry him to a reactor shaft.

No, but he could did what he did with Kenobi in Episode III and chuck him over the ledge.



Anyway, Yoda was more power. He wasn't trying to kill Dooku, much like Dooku wasn't trying to kill Anakin. Sidious got a terrain advantage as well as thousands of approaching Clone Troopers. Yoda had to leave, but not becaus ehe was weaker.

What makes you think Dooku wanted to kill Yoda? It was his old master, after all. You can't say Yoda didn't try to kill Dooku. He was grunting and he had a grim face while fighting Dooku. He was trying to break through Dooku to KILL him. He wasn't swinging around violently for no reason now. If he didn't wanna kill him, he would have used a different method.

How do you know this? Sidious came to you and told them he can't comprehend their power? Wow. Sidious didn't have to. The three Jedi in ROTS were not surprised. It took his several seconds after igniting a lightsaber before he actually attacked them.

Yes, he did! Even Dooku and other Sith had Honor, but that is irrelevant. He knew what would happen if he didn't surprise his opponents: DEATH!

Mace nearly ripped Sidious the f*ck apart while they were lightsaber dueling, because he didn't suprise Mace. Yoda got back up from Sidious' suprise, and stalemated with him.



He's not afraid, he choses to fight smarter than them. It is cowardice. Others have a sense of honor, he doesn't.

It isn't smarter, because it nearly killed him.

Originally posted by Sorgo
They are fighting on the Death Star 2 by a reactor shaft and Sidious is going to be electrocuting some young child? No. Even if they were, Dooku couldn't. He isn't physically strong enough to lift Sidious over his head with one hand and carry him to a reactor shaft.

No, but he could did what he did with Kenobi in Episode III and chuck him over the ledge.

Sidious is more capable in the force though. I doubt you can prove that Sidious is going to let Dooku throw him over. Vader had a major physical advantage.

Originally posted by Sorgo
What makes you think Dooku wanted to kill Yoda? It was his old master, after all. You can't say Yoda didn't try to kill Dooku. He was grunting and he had a grim face while fighting Dooku. He was trying to break through Dooku to KILL him. He wasn't swinging around violently for no reason now. If he didn't wanna kill him, he would have used a different method.

Dooku was a user of the Darkside. They kill Jedi. That is their goal. The goal of the Jedi is to sustain peace, killing only when necessary.

What is this different method, Sorgo?

Dooku was a user of the Dark side. They kill Jedi. That is their goal. The goal of the Jedi is to sustain peace, killing only when necessary.

What is this different method, Sorgo?


Wow.... Dooku still fought without utterly surprising people into their death, but rather challenging them within a basis of either Force Competition or Lightsaber competition. He did not just all out surprise people in the middle of a conversation like Sidious has done. He is Cowardice and Honorless to a staggering degree.


The Difference in the surprising methods. Killing someone during a fight surprise and engaging someone when they are not ready or trying to croak someone when they are not ready in surprise are two very different Animals.

Sidious surprising someone is rare. He is a coward, but he doesn't just surprise people.

Originally posted by Sorgo
It isn't smarter, because it nearly killed him.

Who ended up the Supreme ruler of ...everything? Who forced Yoda into exile? It was a wise decision. You can't say it wasn't smarter.


And for people saying that Sidious suprises people: Whaa Whaa, if only the Dark Lord of the Sith had a little more dignity and a lot less intellegence, then he would be a lot less cheap and a lot more dead.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Who ended up the Supreme ruler of ...everything? Who forced Yoda into exile? It was a wise decision. You can't say it wasn't smarter.


And for people saying that Sidious suprises people: Whaa Whaa, if only the Dark Lord of the Sith had a little more dignity and a lot less intellegence, then he would be a lot less cheap and a lot more dead.

Who was cornered by a broken window begging for their life like a Dog? Who got chucked into a Generator shaft like a Basketball into a hoop?

I CAN say it wasn't smarter. It was dumb and it got his ass killed. And he didn't rule everything. He was also overthrown by a smaller Rebel Army and a Jedi with three years of Experience. Not to mention he couldn't foresee his own apprentice killing him.

Damn, Intellegent indeed.

So now you are going to argue against the Emperors intellegence? Proves the validity of your arguments.

Seriously Sorgo. The Emperor is VERY smart. No one else removed Jedi from the picture like he.

Dooku wasn't exactly smart, he believed he was the Chosen One.

See Sorgo, I don't usually outright debate, I set up and make it seem like people are worse debators (or not as well informed) as they really are.

Where was I, oh yeah, you thought that Sidious wan't smart. Theres not much more I can say to this than there is no way in Hell that that is correct.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Seriously Sorgo. The Emperor is VERY smart. No one else removed Jedi from the picture like he.

Dooku wasn't exactly smart, he believed he was the Chosen One.

Oh my god.... Now you're making direct assumptions?

1: No proof Dooku thought Anakin was the Chosen one.
2: No proof Sidious thought Anakin was NOT the Chosen one.

Wow, he took the Jedi out the picture only to be owned by his own apprentice and some Kid Jedi.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
So now you are going to argue against the Emperors intellegence? Proves the validity of your arguments.

Pseudo Intellectualism? I think so.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Oh my god.... Now you're making direct assumptions?

1: No proof Dooku thought Anakin was the Chosen one.
2: No proof Sidious thought Anakin was NOT the Chosen one.

Wow, he took the Jedi out the picture only to be owned by his own apprentice and some Kid Jedi.

It was said that Dooku believed the the Chosen One would be a seasoned philosopher of sharp insight, solid character and the clarity to see the path to galactic enlightenment; who possessed the titanic willpower to walk it; and, most importantly, the charisma and leadership to carry others along with him.

Notice how well that fits Dooku.

Sidious was taken out by the most powerful Jedi ever and his apprentice in a surprise attack.

Sorgo, this argument has shown your full colors. You claim Sidious was smarter than Dooku, and now you turn tail and deny his intellect.

Sidious was clever enough to have orchestrated the destruction of the Jedi Order, something that not even the Ancient Sith Lords such as Marka Ragnos or Nadd or even Kun were able to do.

Sidious was clever enough to be a Sith Lord and still ascend to the highest level of the Republic government, under the noses of such Jedi as Yoda and Mace Windu, who are revered to have strong attunement to the Force.

Sidious was clever enough to control and manipulate TWO devestating wars in his lifetime, and the by-products of his tyranny have still yet to be reversed.

Sidious was clever enough to use Dooku and Grievous as well as the Confederacy of Independant Systems, and have them systematically executed without them being any the wiser, using them as mere pawns.

Sidious was clever enough to transform a millenia old Republic into a Galactic Empire, and into the mightiest military regime in the galaxy's history.

Sidious was clever enough to transform the man who was destined to destroy him into his personal slave and henchman.

Sidious was clever enough to manipulate the entire galaxy into making many fateful errors, and benefiting himself. Certainly, he had made his share of mistakes - thus resulting in his downfall. But please name to me a villain who never made a mistake and who never was defeated. I am very sorry, Sorgo, but Palpatine may very well be the most clever man in the galaxy in PT and OT times.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
It was said that Dooku believed the the Chosen One would be a seasoned philosopher of sharp insight, solid character and the clarity to see the path to galactic enlightenment; who possessed the titanic willpower to walk it; and, most importantly, the charisma and leadership to carry others along with him.

Notice how well that fits Dooku.

Sidious was taken out by the most powerful Jedi ever and his apprentice in a surprise attack.


The most powerful Jedi ever? HE wasn't even that powerful AT ALL by those times! That's the outrageously hilarious part! But wait! Sidious can foresee all this loads of crap, but he didn't forsee his own demise? Come on!

This is sad, lol. To deny Palpatine's Force-powers and saber ability is bad enough, but to deny his INTELLECT? That's insane.

Sidious was focusing on someone else, Dooku was staring his killer in the eyes. Dooku couldn't forsee his either.

Also, remember that according to GL, the highest level of canon, ROTJ Luke is nearly as good as Mace or Dooku.

Originally posted by Escape81
Sorgo, this argument has shown your full colors. You claim Sidious was smarter than Dooku, and now you turn tail and deny his intellect.

Sidious was clever enough to have orchestrated the destruction of the Jedi Order, something that not even the Ancient Sith Lords such as Marka Ragnos or Nadd or even Kun were able to do.

Sidious was clever enough to be a Sith Lord and still ascend to the highest level of the Republic government, under the noses of such Jedi as Yoda and Mace Windu, who are revered to have strong attunement to the Force.

Sidious was clever enough to control and manipulate TWO devestating wars in his lifetime, and the by-products of his tyranny have still yet to be reversed.

Sidious was clever enough to use Dooku and Grievous as well as the Confederacy of Independant Systems, and have them systematically executed without them being any the wiser, using them as mere pawns.

Sidious was clever enough to transform a millenia old Republic into a Galactic Empire, and into the mightiest military regime in the galaxy's history.

Sidious was clever enough to transform the man who was destined to destroy him into his personal slave and henchman.

Sidious was clever enough to manipulate the entire galaxy into making many fateful errors, and benefiting himself. Certainly, he had made his share of mistakes - thus resulting in his downfall. But please name to me a villain who never made a mistake and who never was defeated. I am very sorry, Sorgo, but Palpatine may very well be the most clever man in the galaxy in PT and OT times.


I said he was smarter than Dooku in CERTAIN ASPECTS. I obviously didn't mean entirely. Obviously you have made an Assumption. Now, Escape, Assumptions make an ass out of you and me.

Yeah, because the ancient Jedi were just as powerful as the Ancient Sith Lords. Modern Jedi are f*cking pushovers.

The same Mace who had Sidious begging for his life? The same Yoda who had Sidious running out of his office?

Sure, he used them as pawns, but time and time even in the history of reality has shown that people can use the more powerful aspect as a Pawn. Do not think that because Dooku was used as a pawn that he was less powerful. Dooku may have been more powerful, but he just wasn't as smart as Sidious and didn't have the knowledge of all of his plans. Sidious had everyone fooled. EVERYONE! Dooku was just as fooled as Yoda, Mace, Anakin, Kenobi, Fisto, Koon.... Etc.... Everybody was fooled. He was SMART but that does not determine how powerful he is and it sure as hell does not determine his intelligence for the Battlegrounds.

He also wasn't clever enough to sense a direct slap in the face from a small Rebellion army and a "Kid Jedi". Luke BECAME the most powerful Jedi ever. At that time, he was still at three years of training and still sucked, yet he took down the Empire and Darth Sidious.



"LOLZ SORGO! DOOKUZ GOTS KILLED BY ANAKIN! H4ZXXXXX33RZZ!"

Dooku got killed by Anakin when he wasn't going all out. Sidious was killed by same man when he was older, and had synthetic limbs.

Wow.

Sure, Sidious was a mastermind and he fooled the Jedi, but nothing lasts forever, and sooner or later he was crushed entirely and the Jedi made a spontanious comeback.

Originally posted by Sorgo
I said he was smarter than Dooku in CERTAIN ASPECTS. I obviously didn't mean entirely. Obviously you have made an Assumption. Now, Escape, Assumptions make an ass out of you and me.

Yeah, because the ancient Jedi were just as powerful as the Ancient Sith Lords. Modern Jedi are f*cking pushovers.

The same Mace who had Sidious begging for his life? The same Yoda who had Sidious running out of his office?

Sure, he used them as pawns, but time and time even in the history of reality has shown that people can use the more powerful aspect as a Pawn. Do not think that because Dooku was used as a pawn that he was less powerful. Dooku may have been more powerful, but he just wasn't as smart as Sidious and didn't have the knowledge of all of his plans. Sidious had everyone fooled. EVERYONE! Dooku was just as fooled as Yoda, Mace, Anakin, Kenobi, Fisto, Koon.... Etc.... Everybody was fooled. He was SMART but that does not determine how powerful he is and it sure as hell does not determine his intelligence for the Battlegrounds.

He also wasn't clever enough to sense a direct slap in the face from a small Rebellion army and a "Kid Jedi". Luke BECAME the most powerful Jedi ever. At that time, he was still at three years of training and still sucked, yet he took down the Empire and Darth Sidious.



"LOLZ SORGO! DOOKUZ GOTS KILLED BY ANAKIN! H4ZXXXXX33RZZ!"

Dooku got killed by Anakin when he wasn't going all out. Sidious was killed by same man when he was older, and had synthetic limbs.

Wow.

Sure, Sidious was a mastermind and he fooled the Jedi, but nothing lasts forever, and sooner or later he was crushed entirely and the Jedi made a spontanious comeback.

Sorgo, lol, all you have ever made about Dooku being more powerful than Sidious are assumptions. Speculation. Nothing. Again, evidence supports me. At least in the Force, that is. Meanwhile, at least Nai can bring up something good without being blinded by the rare disease known as Dookufanboyitis, which you seem to have contracted during your time here.

Actually. By your statements, Mace is greater than Sidious, and we all know Yoda is greater than Sidious or Dooku. So here, the Jedi are even more powerful.

Yep. The one in the same. Although, you forget. Palpatine revealed himself to Anakin who revealed the information to Mace. And then the security recordings revealed it to Yoda. Yep. Palpatine was only discovered when he revealed himself by his OWN decision.

Again. Your earlier statements insinuate Palpatine to be a fool? Indeed, in intellect, Palpatine is undisputed. He's greater to Dooku there, as well as Yoda and Mace. Point being? So even IF he were weaker, he still won in ROTS. Proving that brains are mightier than brawn. As for ROTJ, love is mightier than brains.

Once more. All villains make fatal errors. Your beloved Dooku made his fair share, I might add...

And, Luke didn't end the Empire. Ever hear of 'The Remnant' or post-ROTJ organizations? The Empire still lived. The Empire is STILL living, in the Galactic Alliance. Sorry to break your theory. As for Sidious, Anakin did that, fulfilling his destiny. Then, technically, Brand did it later on.

So no, Sorgo. Assuming doesn't make an ass out of you and me. Just you.

I agree with Escape on the most part here.

Sorgo, GL says that ROTJ Luke is better than Anakin or Obi-wan, nearly on Dooku's level. You can't argue with the man.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Also, remember that according to GL, the highest level of canon, ROTJ Luke is nearly as good as Mace or Dooku.

How did everyone else overlook this comment?!

ROTJ Luke = Mace or Dooku?

You have got to be ****ing kidding me! Where the hell is this bullshit at?

And FYI, if this is indeed true (And not a shakey source or taken out of context, both of which are popular here) then I don't have any faith left in GL. This is clearly unfounded and not reflected in the movies or the literature.

Originally posted by Escape81
If that is the case, Nai, I suppose there is no such thing as legitimate fighting. You claimed that catching someone by surprise is when they do not expect your move. This is true; but this is a natural part of any real fighting. You can't get the advantage when your opponent is expecting your move. If Sidious is a 'dirty' fighter simply by leaping over his desk and wiping out duelists who are inferior to him (save for Mace), then I guess Dooku isn't a fair duelist, nor is Yoda, nor is Mace. There is no such thing as a fair duelist in Star Wars, by your definition.

No. Sorry...
Of course "surprising" someone is part of legitimate fighting but there is a difference between doing something like that within a fight or doing it before the fight really starts.
For example Mace kicked Sidious lightsaber out of his hands. That was surprising Sidious. Sidious tends to "surprise" his opponents before the battle has really started. Would you call me a "fair" fighter if I drop down on you from somewhere and cut you down ? I guess not.

And that was the point. Sidious surprised his opponents before starting a fight and tried to gain an advantage. Is that unfair ? No. Is it illegitimate ? No. Can you still say he beat opponents "fair and square" if he utilized advantages (a lack of space against the four Jedi; the terrain against Yoda) in his favor ? No.

As Sorgo pointed it out before: Dooku didn't do things like that. He went into battles directly and even tried to keep fair conditions. On the beginning of ROTS he could have commanded his droids to attack the Jedi and use force lightning at them at the same time - which would most likely have killed them. In AotC he could have blasted Obi-Wan, Anakin and even Yoda before they were ready to fight. Did he do anything like this ? No.

That's the essential difference between Dooku and Sidious. Sidious is a coward, a manipulater, somebody that will most likely stay away from any fight unless having an advantage (in the ROTS commentary he's compared to Grievous and Grievous is the biggest coward running around) or being forced to fight. Dooku is a fighter and he's trained to fight. He's honourable and this is what did kill him in the end (being betrayed by his master) - Sidious is not and therefore he survived.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
And FYI, if this is indeed true (And not a shakey source or taken out of context, both of which are popular here) then I don't have any faith left in GL. This is clearly unfounded and not reflected in the movies or the literature.

GL stated that Vader was in ROTJ only 80% as powerful as Sidious. He also stated that Luke beat down Vader fair and square. That would show that Luke is >80%. Since after Luke defeated Vader he took a hell of a lot of force lightning from Sidious and was still able to drag a 200+pound man what could have been kilometers, he had to be considerably more than 80% of Sidious. Since Dooku is about equal to Sidious(slightly stronger) and Dooku was more powerful than both Anakin and Obi-wan Luke must be stronger than them. I have stated this mutiple times. but it always overlooked.

I hate it when you go on these modes.


GL stated that Vader was in ROTJ only 80% as powerful as Sidious.

Force potential. Don't mangle the words.

He also stated that Luke beat down Vader fair and square.

Reeks of BS. Where was this specifically?

That would show that Luke is >80%.

No it wouldn't, since it's talking about Force potential, not lightsaber skills or Force mastery. Both of those come with EXPERIENCE, which Luke had not.

Since after Luke defeated Vader he took a hell of a lot of force lightning from Sidious and was still able to drag a 200+pound man what could have been kilometers, he had to be considerably more than 80% of Sidious.

And round forty of Glentract's "Let's Jump to Conclusions!" Hope you brought your jumping pants, folks!

P1: Luke beat Vader. P2: Vader is 80% of Sidious (In force potential, but for the sake of Glentract's argument, it must mean Power Level, since it encompasses saber skills, power, and ass kicking ability apparently). Conclusion: Luke is more than 80 % kickass of Sidious.

Add this with-

P1: Luke dragged Vader's body to a shuttle. P2: Above flawed conclusion. Conclusion: Luke MUST be over 80 % of Sidious' Power Level (tm).

See the loopholes, folks?


Since Dooku is about equal to Sidious(slightly stronger) and Dooku was more powerful than both Anakin and Obi-wan Luke must be stronger than them.

Translation: Luke beat Vader who was 80 % of (Insert arbitrary stat here), and (Glentract believes) Dooku is about the same or even higher than Sidious' power level (tm) and Dooku beats Anakin and obi-Wan in combat (Despite Anakin being 200% Random Stat of Sidious... wait a minute... wouldn't that make Dooku over 200 % of Sidious since he beat Anakin who is 200%? Oops! Logical error!) therefore Luke MUST be stronger than Mace and Dooku by ROTJ.


I have stated this mutiple times. but it always overlooked.

That's because it's bullshit.

And btw, you lied when you said GL stated Luke was as good as Mace or Dooku by ROTJ. It's what you think is correct by extrapolating incorrectly on his statement.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
And btw, you lied when you said GL stated Luke was as good as Mace or Dooku by ROTJ. It's what you think is correct by extrapolating incorrectly on his statement.

Wrong. What I said was according to Lucas he is at least 80%. It was you who assumed that I took this from a direct quote.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Force potential. Don't mangle the words.

When did he ever say force potential? He said 80% as powerful, not that he has 80% of Sidious' potential. GL said that before the injuries, Anakin had the potential to ten times more powerful than Sidious. Anakin obviously didn't lose 90% of his body mass. Looks like you are wrong. Who would have though.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Reeks of BS. Where was this specifically?

In comentary about the movie he said so.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
No it wouldn't, since it's talking about Force potential, not lightsaber skills or Force mastery. Both of those come with EXPERIENCE, which Luke had not.

It isn't talking about force potential. You are wrong Janus.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
P1: Luke beat Vader. P2: Vader is 80% of Sidious (In force potential, but for the sake of Glentract's argument, it must mean Power Level, since it encompasses saber skills, power, and ass kicking ability apparently). Conclusion: Luke is more than 80 % kickass of Sidious.

Pretty much. He said he is 80% as powerful. That mean 80% overall, not in each catagorey individually. If Luke is more powerful than Vader, and Vader is 80%, Luke is greater than 80%. It's simple really.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Add this with-

P1: Luke dragged Vader's body to a shuttle. P2: Above flawed conclusion. Conclusion: Luke MUST be over 80 % of Sidious' Power Level (tm).

See the loopholes, folks?

And the flaw is what?

Originally posted by Deus Ex
Translation: Luke beat Vader who was 80 % of (Insert arbitrary stat here), and (Glentract believes) Dooku is about the same or even higher than Sidious' power level (tm) and Dooku beats Anakin and obi-Wan in combat (Despite Anakin being 200% Random Stat of Sidious... wait a minute... wouldn't that make Dooku over 200 % of Sidious since he beat Anakin who is 200%? Oops! Logical error!) therefore Luke MUST be stronger than Mace and Dooku by ROTJ.

Lucas said he was 80%. You also have been a propenent of the view that Sidious and Dooku are near equal.

There is a flaw on your part Janus. You assume that Dooku defeat Anakin's most powerful form.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
That's because it's bullshit.

Or perhaps you are out to discredit me because you are angry that Mace is more capable than Dooku.

I'd like to make it clear this is it for tonight. I'm not gonna spar with you all night when you're like this. You just piss me off to no end.


When did he ever say force potential? He said 80% as powerful, not that he has 80% of Sidious' potential. GL said that before the injuries, Anakin had the potential to ten times more powerful than Sidious. Anakin obviously didn't lose 90% of his body mass. Looks like you are wrong. Who would have though.

I thought it was two times. No one ever did tell me where this ten times figure comes from. You'll excuse me if I'm skeptical of information I see floating around here that comes exclusively from you, of course.

Second, powerful apparently means (To me) Force power and potential and (to you) some arbitrary power level which is not feasible because such things cannot be measured (OUtside of DBZ of course). Really, if GL's exact words were powerful, this could mean ANY number of things. It could be temporal power, Force power, arm power, anything. But you assume it means... a power level. A flaw on your part, Glentract.



In comentary about the movie he said so.

Exact words? Again, you'll forgive me for not wanting to just take your word for it, since I have no one else of good reputation validifying your claims.


It isn't talking about force potential. You are wrong Janus.

Assuming GL's words were indeed "80% of Sidious' Power" or something like that, you are equally wrong in assuming it means anything and then basing an entire theory on it that's founded ONLY on your interpretation of a man's single sentence.


Pretty much. He said he is 80% as powerful. That mean 80% overall, not in each catagorey individually. If Luke is more powerful than Vader, and Vader is 80%, Luke is greater than 80%. It's simple really.

No, it's leaping to conclusions. You are assuming that powerful implies a broad spectrum of skills and powers and yet it may very well not. Considering no other evidence supports this, it's hyperbole. Assigning a number to a person and giving no certain context is hyperbole. If I say that Jo Bob is 80 % as powerful as Jimmy and I don't specify it could mean influential power, physical power, possibly even horsepower. Generally, in a setting that isn't a video game, there are no exact numbers for a person's overall performance that is quoted as "x% as powerful" stat.

If you truly intend to PROVE anything you need more than this. If you're offering a THEORY, then admit as much. You bashed Nai for claiming facts in a theory, then you do the same thing. You're a hypocrite.


And the flaw is what?

I can't believe you had to ask. Dragging a man to a shuttle does nto equate with the arbitrart power level you suggest. Chewbacca could drag vader too. Is he over 80 % of Sidious?


Lucas said he was 80%. You also have been a propenent of the view that Sidious and Dooku are near equal.

Not in some random power level, Glentract. Dooku may school Sidious in saber combat, but Sidious may school Dooku in force combat. If Dooku happened to beat Sidious in Force combat, I would not be so ignroant as to claim that Dooku was more than 100% of Sidious overall, as you have done when you claim Luke MUST be stronger than VAder's 80 % just because he won. Obi-Wan DID beat Anakin. And Maul. Was he more than both?


There is a flaw on your part Janus. You assume that Dooku defeat Anakin's most powerful form.

No, I was showing you the flaw in YOUR argument. You are saying Luke is more than 80% of Sidious' power level because he beat Vader. Yet Dooku beat Anakin and Obi-Wan. Is he more than both of them in this random stat? So is Mace better than Yoda because he beat Sidious and Yoda didn't?


Or perhaps you are out to discredit me because you are angry that Mace is more capable than Dooku.

WTF? Why am I mad about Mace being "More capable" than Dooku? It has nothing to do with this thread, and it's unsupported BS at the most.

Originally posted by Deus Ex
WTF? Why am I mad about Mace being "More capable" than Dooku? It has nothing to do with this thread, and it's unsupported BS at the most.

Then why in the other thread did you give mention to this one and go off on me just minutes a short while after the other one.

And like you, I'm not going to continuously spar with you over this.

Sorgo, lol, all you have ever made about Dooku being more powerful than Sidious are assumptions. Speculation. Nothing. Again, evidence supports me. At least in the Force, that is. Meanwhile, at least Nai can bring up something good without being blinded by the rare disease known as Dookufanboyitis, which you seem to have contracted during your time here.

Escape. All I have heard from you is how high Sidious' intellect is, how much he smoked everyone, including Yoda, and how much he could kick Dooku's ass. You have thought you have provided solid proof for your arguements, but it seems you have tripped apon a pure strain of your own direct Hypocrisy, Escape. I like your Avatar of Palpatine. Sounds like symptoms of Sidiousfanboyitis. You can deny it until your head f*cking explodes, but from what shit I have gathered, you have a rather small favor for Sidious.

Actually. By your statements, Mace is greater than Sidious, and we all know Yoda is greater than Sidious or Dooku. So here, the Jedi are even more powerful.

No one denied their power, of course, but it doesn't make them more powerful, seeing as 90% of them got f*cked over during a grand purge by one sole source from the Dark side. The Jedi are more powerful than who?

Yep. The one in the same. Although, you forget. Palpatine revealed himself to Anakin who revealed the information to Mace. And then the security recordings revealed it to Yoda. Yep. Palpatine was only discovered when he revealed himself by his OWN decision.

No one argued his discovery, either. I do not care whether he wanted every to know who he was, but I am sure it was not part of his plan to be revealed.

Again. Your earlier statements insinuate Palpatine to be a fool? Indeed, in intellect, Palpatine is undisputed. He's greater to Dooku there, as well as Yoda and Mace. Point being? So even IF he were weaker, he still won in ROTS. Proving that brains are mightier than brawn. As for ROTJ, love is mightier than brains.

Look at you! Do you honestly deny Sidious fanboyism on your part? You act like Sidious was the God of SW! Sure, he was damn good and he played the strings, but he got it all thrown in his face at the end. He basically got f*cked right over.

He won in ROTS? WHO THE F*CK CARES! THIS IS A VERSUS FORUM! THEY AREN'T GOING TO SIT DOWN AND TALK EACH OTHER TO DEATH! WHEN WE MAKE THESE KIND OF THREADS, THEY DUKE IT RIGHT THE F*CK OUT, So guess what? Brawns take over brains in this situation, and if you imply so, maybe Dooku's brawns would own Sidious brains, correct?

Love? So Sidious can't sense love? Or a plan of betrayal by his own apprentice? Or to get his ass whooped by a handful of rebels and a twenty something year old "KID"?

Alot of you talk of how Dooku's death was his arrogance and Sidious conquered him with intelligence, BUT CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME HOW SIDIOUS DIED? Well, his Arrogance. He thought Vader would not kill him and live by him, he thought his army was capable of toppling a lesser army, and he thought Luke's friends would not succeed. But of course, the intelligent mastermind that you love so much was 100% incorrect.

Once more. All villains make fatal errors. Your beloved Dooku made his fair share, I might add...

Sweet, but your beloved Palpatine made just as many, IF NOT MORE, so to say.

And, Luke didn't end the Empire. Ever hear of 'The Remnant' or post-ROTJ organizations? The Empire still lived. The Empire is STILL living, in the Galactic Alliance. Sorry to break your theory. As for Sidious, Anakin did that, fulfilling his destiny. Then, technically, Brand did it later on.


The empire's rule was completely shut down along with Sidious' life. Sure, Sidious pulled the strings but death overcame him, and he no longer owns his beloved army.


As for you calling my views assumptions, you have provided zero proof that Sidious can kill Dooku, you have used the Criss Cross analogy several times, you EVEN steered off into irrelevancy at some points, talking of Sidious' intelligence when power was key in our debates.

Don't call what I have theories, when in flawless fact.... That would be all you have as well.


All you do is spit out the fact that you have gathered all this evidence that Sidious would wipe the floor with Dooku in a fight when the purity of the fact is there is NOTHING. ZERO. NATTA. ZIP
so far that you mentioned factioning that Sidious is more powerful than Dooku besides the fact that Sidious is the Master, and Dooku is the apprentice. Yeah yeah, Sidious was a Mastermind, but in these forums, when we pit them together in a fight that uses Lightsabers and the Force, Sidious' army, betrayal and anything else is ELIMINATED. Because the thread isn't called "Sidious with his army, what happened in ROTS and his betrayal against the Jedi VS Dooku and the crappy droids"


NONE of that matters. All that matters is the fact of force and Lightsaber, and you haven't got shit proving that Sidious is stronger except for insufficient timelines and the Criss Crossing Analogies, as I said before.


I expect a reply after you swim out of that pool of your own hypocrisy, Escape.

I 'do' deny that I am a Sidious fanboy. Perhaps if you'd look around a bit more, you'd see I favor no one, and defend only those who need it. If Dooku were being slandered and underestimated, I'd go out of my way to support him as well. I read a little before I became a member of these forums, Sorgo. I've seen the threads around here. I've seen a lot of people, like Darth Somebody and Great Vengeance. Do I want to be like them? No. But still, they have made a few valid points. Am I a Sidious fanboy? No. I'm not.

I chose the avatar simply because of two reasons:

1. No one else used it.
2. Sidious is one of the people really underranked, so I will support the underdog, as long as he requires it.

Originally posted by Escape81
I 'do' deny that I am a Sidious fanboy. Perhaps if you'd look around a bit more, you'd see I favor no one, and defend only those who need it. If Dooku were being slandered and underestimated, I'd go out of my way to support him as well. I read a little before I became a member of these forums, Sorgo. I've seen the threads around here. I've seen a lot of people, like Darth Somebody and Great Vengeance. Do I want to be like them? No. But still, they have made a few valid points. Am I a Sidious fanboy? No. I'm not.

I chose the avatar simply because of two reasons:

1. No one else used it.
2. Sidious is one of the people really underranked, so I will support the underdog, as long as he requires it.

Hmm.... If you insist, maybe not so much. It's just that I have experienced Fanboys before and alot of them like to deny it. I admit to being a Dooku fanboy, but I know when to stop and I know where proof is valid of who can defeat Dooku and who Dooku may be able to defeat. I gotta know that stuff! I am his number #1 Fanboy, for crying out loud! :P

My, my. You do have a rather disheartening temper, Sorgo. Perhaps you understand the slightest amount of frustration. I've seen many of your colorful works of art. Including where you assume Obi-Wan could defeat Mace Windu in combat. This is another example of your immense and uncalled for fanboyism. Simply because they are your favorites, does not mean they are all-powerful or invincible. You also seem to be quite determined to deny 'fact' regarding Dooku and Sidious. So I will respond once more.

a) Books that do not conflict with the movies are considered canon, and thusly legitimate, unless Lucas renounces them. Dark Rendezvous and Labyrinth of Evil are both legitimate articles of writing, and are canon. And both state, and go into extreme detail, of Dooku's reverence of his master's power, and of his secret 'fear' of Sidious. One does not think that way about one's inferior? And Sidious's attitude towards Dooku? It is the same as ever. Respectful, but commanding. Sidious even hints, in Dark Rendezvous, that he will have no qualms about destroying Dooku if Dooku takes enough 'initiative'.

Even Nai and Deus (!) both understand Dooku feared Sidious, and not the other way around. We do not, however, know precisely what Dooku feared. But we can single out:

a) Fear of criminal charges. Dooku already was identified as the head of an illegal separatist movement, and was responsible for the deaths of countless beings (on Sidious's orders, ironically), so he was already a wanted man.

b) Fear of political slander. Dooku was a political revolutionary on one side, and a sham on the other. He was respected and ridiculed on both either front. And he went into the Separatist movement knowing that this would bring a lot of slander and hatred his way.

So, I'm assuming Dooku feared Sidious's control of the Dark Side, or for his own life. If need be, I will type the exact word-for-word remarks on these forums to 'prove' to you that Dooku did fear Sidious, whereas nothing is indicated that Sidious fears him.

So, the question is: Why would one fear one's inferior?

b) As for the Jedi. The Jedi were hidiously outnumbered by enormously talented clone troopers, and were whittled away by three long years of war. There was a minimal amount of them left as it is, and the rest were simply annihilated by superior numbers and Imperial (Republic) technology. Their destruction is credited more to Sidious's overall scheme than Order 66. The war had caused numerous casualties on the Jedi's part, and Order 66 picked off what's left. Sidious nor Dooku could have done it without the clones. So, no. They were destroyed by the brilliant schemes of one Dark Side source.

c) Palpatine openly discussed the Dark Side, and offered to educate Anakin in its philosophy. Knowing that Anakin was already conflicted and confused, he wouldn't have revealed himself to Anakin without knowing Anakin would tell it to the Jedi. Anakin himself states that he is going to tell the council, and Palpatine lets him leave, without threat or fear. He intended to reveal himself.

d) All villains effectively get 'f*cked* over', in the very end. Or didn't you know that 'good always wins' in popular literature? The same occured to Dooku, Maul, Sidious, Vong, Empire, Thrawn, Grievous, and all of the other Star Wars villains.

e) No. The Empire existed without Palpatine. Thrawn took over, and all thought Palpatine was dead. Even after DE Sidious was slain, the Empire still continued. The Stormtroopers and the Imperial Starfleet were still in tact. Luke didn't destroy them. They still remain living, in the Galactic Alliance.

f) Hypocrisy? No. I defend the characters around here who are grossly underestimated and their opponents grossly overestimated. As it were, if Dooku didn't have you here as his savior and knight, I'd probably defend him as well. But you do that all on your own.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Hmm.... If you insist, maybe not so much. It's just that I have experienced Fanboys before and alot of them like to deny it. I admit to being a Dooku fanboy, but I know when to stop and I know where proof is valid of who can defeat Dooku and who Dooku may be able to defeat. I gotta know that stuff! I am his number #1 Fanboy, for crying out loud! :P

Fanboyism isn't something you should be proud of, my friend. It tends to blind one from the truth. Great Vengeance has shown his colors, as he believes Ragnos couldn't defeat Sidious. I told him, flat-out, Ragnos would crush him. I do not hesitate for a moment to say when and where and by whom Sidious would be defeated.

It is true, Sorgo. You seem hesitant... leary... and flat-out unwilling to accept anything that says Dooku may not be superior to Sidious. It has been noted to me by many people, through messages. You can guess whom, but their identities will remain anonymous.

But I want to let you know. While you are knowledgeable on Dooku and are an utterly ruthless and persistant on a level beyond any debator I have seen here, you lack one thing on the Dooku subject.

An open mind.

Dark Rendezvous, p. 25 -

"Physically, the Count's age was rarely a handicap. Deft as he had become with the Force - unimaginably more subtle than the boy who watched water-skeeters in the Jedi garden all those years ago - he wore his eighty-three standard years better than most humans half his age. He was still in superb physical shape, senses keen, health undiminished by even the memory of a cold.

Only in this situation, stopped before the image of his master, did he feel his years. Even via hologram, the flickering figure of Darth Sidious, hideous in blue and shadows, seemed to strip his false youth away, leaving his bones brittle, his joints worn thin, and knotted with tension."

Dark Rendezvous, p. 31 -

"Darth Sidious had given him a curious look, then, one that passed through him like a flush of fever, a weakness inside. "Do you still love him?" his Master said.

Dooku had laughed and braved it out. The idea was ridiculous.

"Ridiculous?" his Master had said, in that soft, terrible voice of his. "I hardly think so." And then, his voice like honeyed poison, "A good studen always loves his teacher."

There was always a risk, talking with Sidious. Sometimes the conversation would go badly, and Dooku would fail to please somehow. It was a terrible thing, failing to please his Master."

Originally posted by Escape81
Dark Rendezvous, p. 25 -

"Physically, the Count's age was rarely a handicap. Deft as he had become with the Force - unimaginably more subtle than the boy who watched water-skeeters in the Jedi garden all those years ago - he wore his eighty-three standard years better than most humans half his age. He was still in superb physical shape, senses keen, health undiminished by even the memory of a cold.

Only in this situation, stopped before the image of his master, did he feel his years. Even via hologram, the flickering figure of Darth Sidious, hideous in blue and shadows, seemed to strip his false youth away, leaving his bones brittle, his joints worn thin, and knotted with tension."

Although that book and the one I am about to mention have collided with the movies and with direct Canon, I think I will post this anyways.

ROTS Novelization, p. 67 -

"Quite simple, in the end, he thought. Isolate Skywalker, slaughter Kenobi. Beyond that, it would be merely a matter of spinning Skywalker up into enough of a frenzy to break through his Jedi restraint and reveal the infinite vista of Sith power. Dooku would take it from there, and do what was needed for his plans."

I'm skipping around the book a bit, just for you to get the point.

Dark Rendezvous, p. 234 -

'The remorseless hooded figure flickered like a ghost on the holoconsole.

"I was not aware. Thank you for showing this to me. Needless to say, Ventress was acting on her own initiative." This arrogance - one might even say, the faint condescension - with which he had been thinking of his Master a few moments before had drained out of him like blood spilling from an open vein.'

Tell me. How did Dark Rendezvous collide with the movie? And I am not talking about the ROTS novelization, where it firmly collided with the movie in the Sidious vs Mace fight scene.

Tell me. How does Dark Rendezvous prove to be not canon? Simply because the idea of Dooku fearing his master is uncanny, or because of a truly logical reason?

-Revelations-

So this is the plan: goad a Jedi into lashing out with anger and using the Dark Side of the Force. Once he has used the Dark Side, he can be easily corrupted by a Sith Lord into joining his cause. This was Tyranus' plan for Skywalker (although Sidious had his own plans), and it was clearly Palpatine's plan for Luke Skywalker at the end of ROTJ. One can only imagine that this is how he himself was corrupted.


-Revelations-

For thirteen years you've been carefully plotting, carefully conspiring with Darth Sidious, waiting for the day when you would take Sidious' place and assume your rightful place as the ruler of the galaxy

Originally posted by Escape81
Tell me. How did Dark Rendezvous collide with the movie? And I am not talking about the ROTS novelization, where it firmly collided with the movie in the Sidious vs Mace fight scene.

Tell me. How does Dark Rendezvous prove to be not canon? Simply because the idea of Dooku fearing his master is uncanny, or because of a truly logical reason?


Because books have countered with Movie facts before, including ROTS, DR, and DE.

Books are obviously not Canon. This is once again not solid proof, which I find extremely hilarious. Even the point of Dooku overthrowing Sidious may not be Canon, because it is from a damned book.

Ah, you say 'books'. You say BOOKS. So, as I've surmised, you do not have anything that warrants Dark Rendezvous as illegitimate. It doesn't conflict with the movies. Nor does Labyrinth of Evil. And in both, Dooku speaks of Sidious in both fear and awe.

By your own words, the ROTS novelization isn't canon. It conflicts with the movies. Thusly, the basis for it's validity is all but destroyed. This is not, however, the case for Dark Rendezvous or LOE.

Odd. I was under the impression that books are canon unless they conflict with the movies. Interesting. Perhaps I am mistaken. I'll look into it.