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Can we choose our choices, or do they choose us? Are there other bigger forces in control of our choices. Is it correct to say that if we believe we can really make our own decisions, we have too big an ego? If we accept that we are not entirely in control of our decisions, are we being humble and giving acknowledgement to the greater powers than ourselves?

Or am I missing something?

It feels like I shoouldn't think the way I just did, because it didn't feel right to say that we are not responsible for our actions.

I believe we are part of the creation process and always creating and thus we can create our own choices for the most part...yes.

So if we are part of the process, is the process then bigger than us, and if so, does it not control us?

Or let's just say that we create the forces which choose our choices for us, through the choices we make...a circle of choice-force...

Originally posted by Wonderer
Or let's just say that we create the forces which choose our choices for us, through the choices we make...a circle of choice-force...

Maybe we are the forces that create our own choices...we are one and the same force....A unity.

who knows...

I believe in both choice and forces. Greater forces control us to some extent, yet we are the makers of our destiny.

We create our own choices, but we don't create as insomuch choose them. The idea of fate (greater forces choosing for us) was a poor but effective way of blaming some one else for your own actions...

we are given choices.
and we can choose between them.
and sometimes we are force to choose, even though we don't like any of the options.

Originally posted by Wonderer
Can we choose our choices, or do they choose us?

There is usually an interplay between the forces exerted on the individual by the outside and the force the individual exerts out of pure self determination. No one exists inside a vacuum and the landscape is always changing, year to year, day to day - even hourly or in the extreme case of very rapid ambient social/physical changes - minute by minute. Sometimes you are more in control than other times. It's all a matter of options, how many possible paths lay before you. At times there may be overwhelming forces acting against you and the choices are, for the time being, limited. Learning and self discovery tends to open up doors, allow for more and more choices, options & possibilities under any set of external circumstances. It is possible to walk this world and be unaffected, leave no footprints, yet exert a very powerful influence on it - but few people ever do this or even come close. Sometimes it is as if you stand on top of a hill or even a mountain, and as you gaze down you can see so many possibilities, all at your disposal. Other times, it's hard enough just to get through the day and you're glad to climb back into bed at the end of it! Like the lyrics in some old country song goes: "Sometimes you're the windshield and sometimes you're the bug." But whatever the case, you are always responsible for making your own choices because even if there's just one option, you can always say "no", not act, or not decide, suffering the consequences or enjoying the benefits as a result - whatever the case may be. To be human is to be aware, self-aware and self-determining. We, are responsible for the choices we make each day and as time goes on the accumulated effects of such decision making define who we are, our character, our very nature. No one is ultimately and forever defined one way or another and anyone can change no matter who or what they are now. In the end, what's important is not what we think or feel, but how we act. Out actions in the world define us and give our life meaning. You can become anyone or anything you want, ultimately. Our species is in its infancy. The limits to human potential, if any, haven't even begun to be explored. There is no user manual that comes with the man suit you are currently wearing. My guess is that we can fly, literally! There is a way. We just have to believe it and start looking for the power switch inside somewhere.

http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/3084/matrixdark4fd.png

cool. Love this topic!

as humans I think we are in a unique position as far as choice is concerned. If the world is a series of causes and events, then choice must be understood in these terms. Choice is not uncaused or undetermined. One could say an internal pressure, such as our will or desire, determines freedom of choice whereas lack of choice comes from external pressures. For example, if one is locked in a cell by the police, there is no choice to be there. External forces (police forces *lol*) placed one in there. However, to get there say one shot a man and it was internal drives (you desired to shoot the man) that caused this, then it was freedom of choice that caused one to shoot. However, if you yourself was going to be shot if you didn't shoot this man, then there is no freedom of choice. As you can see, this can get quite messy.

Sometimes I speculate as to whether the only real choice is perception. How one perceives the world is something that is completely within our power to manipulate, control if you like. Even that is debatable. Tho, personally ... I kinda like this option.

oops ... gramatically incorrect ... sorry about that ... hope it doesn't make my ramblings too hard to understand

Originally posted by StrangeDays
Sometimes I speculate as to whether the only real choice is perception. How one perceives the world is something that is completely within our power to manipulate, control if you like. Even that is debatable. Tho, personally ... I kinda like this option.


This is something I never heard nor thought of before! An original idea and food for thought! Hmmm... perhaps a way out of the behaviourist's cage and existential dilemma!

*jA walks out of thread, chin in hand, thinking about the implications of this strange and intriguing new idea of Strange Days. . . *

btw, nice movie, 'strange days' that is

Wow .... Mr Anderton ... how surprising ... not many people have seen this movie!! I am impressed

Yes. the perception thing came to me a few years back ... means that no matter what we will always have freewill ... and that to me is a good thing!!

Thanks. Yes I agree with that completely. And thanks for addressing me as you do but John or jOHN or jA is also okay too. Cool smilie! Lol. You rock too babe! And yeah, that was a good movie. I remember it was sort of dark form both a story pt of view and from a purely cinematic viewpoint. Even though the stories are way different, I like "Dark City" for the dark cinematography too aside fron the storyline which was also awesome.

Haven't seen dark city ... will have to check that one out.

I call u 'Mr Anderton' ... as I am reminded of the scene from the matrix where the clone cop machine dudes are talking to Nero (is that the character name? can't remember) anyway ... they refer to him as 'Mr Anderson' in that really funny kinda official voice ... hence the 'Mr Anderton' thing ... lol

reminds me of that scene

*Mr. Anderton gives a quick pull to each of the long sleeves of his business dress shirt, so as to adjust their length to more properly show a one half inch margin of white extending out from under his dark blue suit coat. Then he momentarily adjusts his plain dark tie before removing and polishing his Ray-Ban glasses. As he does so, he begins talking to Strange Days in that resonant, slow, sometimes drawn out, measured voice so typical of agents.*

"Tell me Ms. . . well, I believe you go by the handle Strange Days am I correct? So tell me, do you know why you have been called to this office then?"

*Mr. Anderton is now paging through a formidable file labelled: Dossier: Strange Days.*

"It appears you have, ummm discovered something about the true identity underly our field agents and have even been sharing this information with your online friends and associates. Is this correct Ms. Strange Days?"

*Strange Days, wishing to protect her friends from the kind of interrogation she is now suffering remains non-committal. Unshaken and staring right back at Mr's Anderton with all the attitude of disdain and contempt she could muster, which was btw, considerable, she remained silent and allof.*

"I see. Well, let me tell you something Miss Strange Days. I have the power to forget this ever happened, so that you may go back to work and begin again with a clean slate and therefore not be further inconvenienced - or - we can make your life very difficult and use any and all means to extract the information we need from you. All I'm asking for arr the names of those with whom you were discussing any and all topics of a philosophical nature, especially where the word "Matrix" was mentioned. So, how 'bout it?"

*With that Strange Days casually stands and turns her back to Mr. Anderton and the other two agents. Then, without warning, from under her long tight fitting leather coat, she quickly pulls out two Glock 17C automatic's, one in each hand. She pivots on her heels to now face the agents and begins firing away at a ferocious pace, emptying the high capacity magazines in their direction as she back peddals for the door. *

*She is "poety in motion" as she sprints down the long hallway, diving into the empty elevator compartment just as the doors were closing. Lucky for her she had been fast enough to kill two of the agents, taking them by complete surprise and succeeded in wounding Mr. Anderton as well, but just to the degree necessary so as to slow him down and give her enough time to effect her escape.*

*As the doors opened on the main floor, all was normal and business was as usual as she then left the building. Disappearing into the crowded streets of a midday downtown Sidney lunch hour, the day was beautiful and sunny on this Springtime afternoon. Reaching into her top pocket she pulled out a pair of brand new Ray-Ban sunglasses that fit her to a T. Strange Days snickered and laughed as she made her way to the nearest outdoor phone booth. Anybody that might have heard her would never have guessed she was laughing because she was now wearing Mr. Andertons new shades. Of course, how could they know the significance of that pleasant little laugh of hers, these were "coppertops" who were totally clueless and don't even know what an "agent" is. "But NOW they will" she thought. Damn straight! Now they will indeed!*



OH WAIT! HOLY CRAP. Right! "Mr. Anderton" was Neo NOT the agents name like I have depicted in this story! Arrrrgh. My Bad! Oh well, good excuse for watching the DVD's now!! Anyway you look at it, you're a hero in the scruipt anyways SD! Lol!!

hysterical

you have a lot of time on your hands John!!

Originally posted by StrangeDays
hysterical

you have a lot of time on your hands John!!

are you suggesting i should perhaps hv alot of you on them instead?

yes?

well ok then. i was hoping for that because i'm more than little anxious to begin an exploration into deep subjectivity, to map what i hypothesize are almost wholy unexplored realms of human potentiality. we will have to invent a new, systematic methodology for describing the experiential domains and dreamscapes we shall encounter - one that relies on a whole new symbolic nomenclature, that references newly charted experiences at thes deep, unexplored levels. this can't be done alone however. i could use some assistance from you Strange Days to provide validation and independent verification of the states we will encounter together. we are going to break new ground here as we objectify the subjective in ways that were never dreamed possible. we'll publish our findings in peer reviewed journals, put forth a new universal paradign for 21st century society, but in general terms at first, you know, broad brush strokes at first just to get them to buy into it and give our ideas "legs" as they say in the movie industry - and also to have them begging for more so we can go on innumerable lecture tours all over the world, be the toast of the town and the center of attention in the highest of intellectual circles for years to come.

whaddaya say? should we have a blue sky session and map out a general strategy and tentative project inception dates, say, sometime during the upcoming x-mas holiday season when the 9 to 5 world slows down for you a bit? actually x-mas week is open for me so shall i book a flight for Sydney? or one for you to New York? lets block off 5 days maybe so we can get this party started in January maybe?

I just want to see you change your avatar again.

why do idiot little guys ALWAYS follow me around like some new species of demented little pilot fish? and, btw, are you gay "shaky" on the water lilly? not that there's anything wrong with it, it's just that if you are, i would expect you to appreciate the fact that i am not. so why don't you give me a break and go harrass someone who IS on your particular wavelength, eh!

Originally posted by jOHN_Anderton
why do idiot little guys ALWAYS follow me around like some new species of demented little pilot fish? and, btw, are you gay "shaky" on the water lilly? not that there's anything wrong with it, it's just that if you are, i would expect you to appreciate the fact that i am not. so why don't you give me a break and go harrass someone who IS on your particular wavelength, eh!


You know you are going to get banded for stuff like that.

I am not gay, not like there is anything wrong with that. I know some people who are gay and I seem to get along fine with them.

The flower is a lotus flower. I am a Buddhist.

I thought it was a good trick changing your avatar like that, but don't get mad, there is no reason to get mad.

I find your actions in the forum interesting, and no, you can not get me mad, ever.

Ooooh. Boood izm!!! HAHAHAHA!!!! So, that makes yoooo a Bud-ist! Or do yooo prefer, a Boood-isht? HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Hey Bud, I'm TRYING to get banned! Unlike some pathetic fool who's spent enough time here to actually post TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED times, most of which are a WASTE of time I'm sure, at least for the BRIEF time I've been here I've posted brilliantly. Not that you or most of your illiterate buds can even appreciate what I've posted, because quite frankly, you can't. But i do know that in spite of this, whether i post again or never again, my general influence here has already made this little infinitessimally tiny insignificant place a much better place than it was before I arrived.

Now, be honest Bud:

You know that.

I know that.

And the American people know that.

(Bob Dole impression)

Originally posted by jOHN_Anderton
Ooooh. Boood izm!!! HAHAHAHA!!!! So, that makes yoooo a Bud-ist! Or do yooo prefer, a Boood-isht? HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Hey Bud, I'm TRYING to get banned! Unlike some pathetic fool who's spent enough time here to actually post TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED times, most of which are a WASTE of time I'm sure, at least for the BRIEF time I've been here I've posted brilliantly. Not that you or most of your illiterate buds can even appreciate what I've posted, because quite frankly, you can't. But i do know that in spite of this, whether i post again or never again, my general influence here has already made this little infinitessimally tiny insignificant place a much better place than it was before I arrived.

Now, be honest Bud:

You know that.

I know that.

And the American people know that.

(Bob Dole impression)
I know what you are doing here. You are trying to meet girls. I hope you find what you are looking for. I am sorry that you have such a poor image of yourself that you have to boast. I will leave you alone.

Hey, Johnny, don't get too big a head, you might topple over any moment. Just remember that egoism and arrogance is the root cause of all suffering.

Good wishes to you, may the Buddha in you come to the surface quick enough.

what a bunch of knuckleheads.

Wooooooo...interesting talk about forces and choices....

Originally posted by Wonderer
Hey, Johnny, don't get too big a head, you might topple over any moment. Just remember that egoism and arrogance is the root cause of all suffering.

Good wishes to you, may the Buddha in you come to the surface quick enough.
Then perhaps it' s time to reconsider your point of view In defence of Arrogance?

Originally posted by Storm
Then perhaps it' s time to reconsider your point of view In defence of Arrogance?

Perhaps there are times when we have a choice and times when we are subject to the rolling ball of determinism ...

horse

this smilie was too cute not to include in a post somewhere!!

Adding on to my post. There are times when we can go on and times when we can't.

If we are going to take philosophy out of the abstract an into every day life then I think we need to be more specific about what we mean when we say do we have freewill or is everything predetermined (i.e. force). This is a very important issue. Ultimately, if we cannot define how we are free, then we cannot have moral responsibility. This, surely, is an afront to common sense.So I put to you this:

What is freewill?

If freewill can be defined, then we can define in what sense we are able to make choices.

war

Originally posted by Storm
Then perhaps it' s time to reconsider your point of view In defence of Arrogance?

Well, you might have noticed that I have changed completely. I have become a Buddhist. I am now without a self and I've learnt to have compassion for others.

At the risk of sounding tedious .... here are some of my opinions ...

Choice cannot occur if it is beyond one's control to choose.

how an individual responds in terms of interpreting the event is within his or her control

Habitual behaviour and action is not choice

Habitual behaviour is behaviour that is done without thought. It is behaviour and action that an individual would do automatically, without careful consideration. One can choose to change habitual behaviour, but habitual behaviour in itself is not choice.

Choice can be power in itself. No matter what external circumstances exist, an individual can still choose how to interpret these experiences. It is in how one interprets these experiences that there exists the option to choose. We can deliberate upon how we perceive an event and then consciously choose the manner in which we interpret an event. By doing this we can go beyond habitual behaviour and action and exercise freewill.

True freedom of choice is a particular type of choice.

Choice must be made in a particular frame of mind. One must will a choice.

Actions and behaviours in and of themselves have no value. An action or behaviour is neither good nor bad, it is the will behind the action or behaviour that is value laden.

One has the freedom to will, however, to make a choice without awareness is not to make a choice at all. One must deliberate and consciously choose.

Consciously choosing means being aware that there are many and varied options in the manner in which one interprets an event.

A little of both.

I also think it can be both. ^

We create our own choices - even if we chose not to chose, we have already made a choice of not choosing.

This is "free-will" according to Buddhism: As everything is relative, interdependant and conditional, nothing is absolute, nothing is completely free and detached from everything else, not even the idea of free-will. So, free-will, like everything else, is also just relatively free. We can make choices, but they are still conditioned and dependent on other factors.

'Be malleable, but don't be clay' is my motto, moto. Hello? Moto?

Both

I think everything goes around by chance. Not sure if that counts as a 'greater force' though...