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I was just thinking about something as I saw an ad for the ROTS DVD...

Now that the story of Anakin is complete, for me it has changed alot of things...In ESB I believe, Anakin told Luke that he was his father, and continued to try and get him to join him, so that he and Luke could rule the galaxy together...

Before we knew the story of Anakin, the choice is obvious...Darth Vader was a ruthless character, and the dark side meant pure evil...But since we know that Anakin turned to the darkside with a really noble purpose in mind, or something like that...It makes it a bit different...Or does it...?

If you had the choice, would you have joined Vader, if you knew the story the prequals told..?

It wasn't THAT noble; it was actually very selfish. Saving another might seem noble, but actually Anakin was looking out for himself- he couldn't take losing his attachment.

Fear, Anger, Hate, suffering etc.

If anything, those emotions made Anakin more human than any of the other Jedi...That said...

Answer the question..?

No it didn't. That selfishness made Anakin into the evil man he became, so unless you are saying it is human to be evil, you have little grounds there.

And obviously, it being an evil and selfish path, my answer was no.

Originally posted by AYHJA
I was just thinking about something as I saw an ad for the ROTS DVD...

Now that the story of Anakin is complete, for me it has changed alot of things...In ESB I believe, Anakin told Luke that he was his father, and continued to try and get him to join him, so that he and Luke could rule the galaxy together...

Before we knew the story of Anakin, the choice is obvious...Darth Vader was a ruthless character, and the dark side meant pure evil...But since we know that Anakin turned to the darkside with a really noble purpose in mind, or something like that...It makes it a bit different...Or does it...?

If you had the choice, would you have joined Vader, if you knew the story the prequals told..?

When Vader asked Luke to join him there was no intentions but pure evil Vader wanted to rule the galaxy in place of the emperor he doesnt care about being noble or the people he rules!

Of coarse!But...thats just cause Darth Vader is so damn cool

Evil huh..?

If I had to make a choice...To join the dark side of the force to save my son, I would probably do it...Good and evil are paths relative to postion...



It is human nature to love and have attachments to things, what are you talking about..? Especially if those things are human beings, who return that love to you...Love coupled with tremendous gifts can probably do to anyone what it did to Anakin...Its not like he had a relatively "easy" life, being born into slavery and having the only person he had ever loved die...Tormented by dreams about it...

You sell the human emotion way short if you truly feel that it was a completely selfish act...

That;'s very odd, because the entire moral of Star Wars is that Anakin let his selfish feelings eventually bring horror to the galaxy, despite having been directly taught that that would happen.

We can have sympathy, but we cannot excuse. his actions were selfish and evil. You talking about 'going to the Dark Side' as if that were an abstract concept that could save your son. You isolate yourself from the reality- which was the murder of children, and from there, to kill countless others.

Good and evil is not relative in Star Wars. Only Sith will make you see it like that.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
It wasn't THAT noble; it was actually very selfish. Saving another might seem noble, but actually Anakin was looking out for himself- he couldn't take losing his attachment.

Fear, Anger, Hate, suffering etc.

Yes! Exactly. It's like the short story "The Scarlet Ibis" by James Hurst. At least, comparable, thats what I thought.

I would. I love being evil.

I'd rather have joined Vader than Sidious. I like Sidious (The Emperor) better; and he sure as hell owns Vader, but Vader isn't more likely to kill and/or replace you when someone more powerful comes along.

Everything considered, if I had known that my father had just gotten lost, had his mind twisted until he became the very thing he swore to destroy, I would be even more commited to stoping him. I would kill him though, like Obi-Wan decided he must do.

@ Ushgarak

So, you don't think that what Anakin did was based on love first and foremost..?

Isn't the nature of all human relationships selfish..? Do you just give and give, and not think to get anything in return..? Have you never ever been decieved or fooled..? I know I have...And I sympathize with Anakin...It is not excusing it, but I can understand...I'm not saying I would have done it myself, but I understand how someone could...

I think it was obvious that Vader loved Luke, and would have done anything for him...He loved his baby momma, LoL...If I was Luke, who was lied to about who Vader was from the get go (and since we are all about how 'good' the Jedi are) of ANH, I probably would at least have had a sit down with old crispy...

Vader didn't realise any love for Luke at all until right at the very end- he was happy to kill him before that.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No it didn't. That selfishness made Anakin into the evil man he became, so unless you are saying it is human to be evil, you have little grounds there.

And obviously, it being an evil and selfish path, my answer was no.
Human's true nature is being evil. Look at a young 3 year old. You must correct what that child does to bring him up into a good person or he'll/she'll forever be that evil child.

I agree with Ahjya. Being evil is part of human nature and is ingrained into our minds and often leads people down the wrong path. I think - Disagree if you want Ush - that the audience is meant to sympathise with Anakin. In fact he is like a typical shakespearean character in that respect, a hero but with many flaws but who tries to follow good intentions however selfish they may become.

Of coursr you are meant to sympathise with him.

That's completely different from thinking that what he did was in any way acceptable and understandable. he did a thoroughly evil thing for selfish reasons. And uprbinging is irrelevant- it is not the default nature of a person in the world to be evil, for whatever reason.

I find his reason understandable.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Vader didn't realise any love for Luke at all until right at the very end- he was happy to kill him before that.

Just like any father + Son relationship right up until the son leaves the home w00t.

Originally posted by exanda kane
I find his reason understandable.

You would kill children to achieve your goals, would you?

Depends...if they had annoying american accents...maybe. maybe.

Forgive me haha. I mean Ush that I can understand why hes done it - not that I would do it...

Originally posted by exanda kane
Depends...if they had annoying american accents...maybe. maybe.

What kind of American accents? New Yorker?, Southern?, Mid-West?, Hawaiian?, Ghetto?.........

Texan!!

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No it didn't. That selfishness made Anakin into the evil man he became, so unless you are saying it is human to be evil, you have little grounds there.

And obviously, it being an evil and selfish path, my answer was no.

Dude Im just going to guess that you dont have any children. and no thats not bad im just making a point so don't take it as an insult. When you have your Wife AND your 2 unborn children hanging in the balance it shapes your perspective on such matters. Anakin even said "love cant save you padme only my new powers can" he wasnt being selfish he was trying to save the women he loves and his two children. and in the long run he never REALY joined the sith until Obi- Wan Got off the ship and anakin yells " YOU BROUGHT HIM TO KILL ME!" he even says " i am more powerfull than the chancellor, i can overthrow him, we can make things the way we want them to be" It IS very human to want to save the ones you love. And doing anything you can to ensure their saftey isnt evil. Have you ever seen the movie john Q. He takes a whole hospital hostage, the smartest thing to do? no but he does it to save his son. and to point out to the world the insurance companies Greed. They didnt care about saving a 10 year old boys life, because of the money. ultimatly he served a greater good compared to the small evil. If Deception is of the dark side than obi-wan fell to the dark side. He Deceived luke by telling him his father was dead. BUT he did it to serve a better good. Yea i beleive the 2 most human jedi are Anakin and Obi-Wan. they do what needs to be done.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Vader didn't realise any love for Luke at all until right at the very end- he was happy to kill him before that. Nope he offers luke to rule the Galaxy as Father and Son. like he offered Padme'
he was reaching out to luke. He thought his whole past was gone destroyed. he didnt even know that luke was his son untill the emperor told him. and vader had perfect oportunity to kill luke, you think if he REALY wanted to he couldnt? luke wasnt strong enough in the force to block a good ol' fashioned ***** choke.