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THis is a match to the death no teleportation.
Both are bloodlusted and want to destroy each other.
Location: A barren World where nothing exits the planet is made of rock that is as strong as Admantium.
Who will win this battle of two powerhouses not holding anything back and going all out. Can the Herald of Galactus defeat the Avatar of Cyttorak.
Debate.

whicj juggernaut? no matter what Juggs aint gonna die. He can lose but he cant die.

Non fight, unless Surfer uses some sort of telepathy on Juggs. He once used telepathy on the Hulk, but he did so passively. Not sure if his telepathy has any offensive capabilities, but Juggy can't touch Surfer, plain and simple. He can certainly outlast Surfer, though.

Originally posted by DrDoom101
whicj juggernaut? no matter what Juggs aint gonna die. He can lose but he cant die. Classic juggs both bloodlusted though so I'm assuming this is gonna be the Juggs that does the crazy stuff like shoot expolding magic Gobules and Concussive force blasts so I'm thinking he can hit Siulver Surfer and this is gonna be the Surfer that blows up planets so I thought it could be a good match.

this fight might end in a stalemate because juggernaut can not be hurt in any way even having his flesh disengrated he still stood. Surfer certainly is not going let the juggernaut K.O. him. Th e only possible way for S urfer to win is to find a way to cancel out Cyttorak's spell.

Silver Surfer. Juggernaut doesnt have any superhuman mental defences to my knowledge so once SS blasts off that helmet what he's packing psionically should be enough imo.

hes INDESTRUCTABLE. ir could be current for all i care, he would lose but he aint gonna die. if this is a fight to the death, its stalemate. otherwise, juggs gonna surrender

Nonfight. Stalemate. Whatever you wanna call it.

Neither can harm the other.

i concur with metalmanx.

Originally posted by newjak86
THis is a match to the death no teleportation.
Both are bloodlusted and want to destroy each other.
Location: A barren World where nothing exits the planet is made of rock that is as strong as Admantium.
Who will win this battle of two powerhouses not holding anything back and going all out. Can the Herald of Galactus defeat the Avatar of Cyttorak.
Debate.

I think you mean exemplar.

Originally posted by Fanboy
I think you mean exemplar. Yeah Exemplar that is what he is referred to most often.

ss blasts a hole in the ground, dumps juggs in, fills it with rock and changes the rock to adamantium.

ss wins. he has about one million ways to win this using his powers creatively. he doesn't need to ko or 'port him. he can trap him forever.

Originally posted by leonidas
ss blasts a hole in the ground, dumps juggs in, fills it with rock and changes the rock to adamantium.

ss wins. he has about one million ways to win this using his powers creatively. he doesn't need to ko or 'port him. he can trap him forever.

Nope. Only slow Juggernaut.

If Juggernaut wants to get out, he will. He just needs to start moving forward, and then it's goodbye to his holding cell. He can't be physically stopped once he starts moving in a direction.

So, again. Stalemate.

Using his forward power, could Jug break adamantium?

<<Nope. Only slow Juggernaut.

If Juggernaut wants to get out, he will. He just needs to start moving forward, and then it's goodbye to his holding cell. He can't be physically stopped once he starts moving in a direction.

So, again. Stalemate.>>

nah, i ain't buying that argument. it took juggs (self-admittedly) MONTHS to walk out of that building foundation spidey trapped him in. MONTHS! and that pit was likely only 10's of feet deep and thick. ss blasts a continent-size hole, drops him in it, fills it then spends time transmuting the fill into adamantium. IF juggs can walk through adamantium (never proven, and one time the army imprisoned him AND the hulk in a cell that it took BOTH working together to break out of!) then in a million years you can call it a stalemate. ss flies off the planet the winner.

(just looked at the location -- he just drills a miles' deep pit by turning a shaft of the adamantium hard rock into water, drops juggs down the pit THEN transmutes it back into adamantium.

either way, ss's the only one who walks/flies off the world.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<Nope. Only slow Juggernaut.

If Juggernaut wants to get out, he will. He just needs to start moving forward, and then it's goodbye to his holding cell. He can't be physically stopped once he starts moving in a direction.

So, again. Stalemate.>>

nah, i ain't buying that argument. it took juggs (self-admittedly) MONTHS to walk out of that building foundation spidey trapped him in. MONTHS! and that pit was likely only 10's of feet deep and thick. ss blasts a continent-size hole, drops him in it, fills it then spends time transmuting the fill into adamantium. IF juggs can walk through adamantium (never proven, and one time the army imprisoned him AND the hulk in a cell that it took BOTH working together to break out of!) then in a million years you can call it a stalemate. ss flies off the planet the winner.

(just looked at the location -- he just drills a miles' deep pit by turning a shaft of the adamantium hard rock into water, drops juggs down the pit THEN transmutes it back into adamantium.

either way, ss's the only one who walks/flies off the world.

It's a good strategy, just not for Juggernaut. His forward momentum will indeed take him through Adamantium EVENTUALLY. It will take a helluva long time, but he will. Which means that he's still in the fight, since he can return to the battlefield under his own power. If Silver Surfer leaves, then he loses the fight.

Oh, and the cement-filled pit that Spidey tricked Juggy into, well, think about it. He had no way to walk. He was suspended in quick-drying cement. He was above the ground and such. You try moving forward in that situation. He had to continually flexes his muscles and such until he got even just a little bit of space to smash out of there. Honestly, that was a VERY poor showing of Juggy's strength, but they had to make it look like Spidey really got the victory there.

The vB search is down right now, but there was already a thread about Juggernaut being able to walk through Adamantium. It would take him years and such to do it, but he would indeed do it. And since he can, he's still technically in the battle, according to KMC rules. And if SS leaves, he loses the fight, according to KMC rules as well.

The Spiderman thing, the Juggs and Hulk thing, even the mountain caving in on him when he first found the ruby.......they all took him a hell of a long time to get out of. If Surfer is to do as has been said, transmute the ground to whatever......air.....water....whatever....then dump juggs down a 3 km long shaft and transmute it all back to adamantium, he'll win.

1. Seeing as how Juggs entire body would be surrounded by adamantium, aka imagine having an adamantium body cast that won't let you move at all, so no forward motion of any kind (not to mention the kind of pressure resisting his muscles flexing).

2. After ages, assuming he could manage to make himself some space to start moving it would still take him waaaaaaaayyyyy too long to get out.

The KMC rules are all fine and dandy but this could be considered a ring-out. Sure, he can get back into the fight by his own power, but it would take a crapload of time. I've seen plenty of people say that the rules need to change to add in a time limit....

~wickerman~

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Non fight, unless Surfer uses some sort of telepathy on Juggs. He once used telepathy on the Hulk, but he did so passively. Not sure if his telepathy has any offensive capabilities, but Juggy can't touch Surfer, plain and simple. He can certainly outlast Surfer, though.


hulk has... and juggernaut isnt slow like most people think. x-men have stated that hes quite fast for his size. if surfer makes the mistake of letting Juggs get in close, 1 punch is all it takes (thor has did it, in bloodlust mode). surfers body wont be harmed, but he will go unconsciouss...


Originally posted by leonidas
nah, i ain't buying that argument. it took juggs (self-admittedly) MONTHS to walk out of that building foundation spidey trapped him in. MONTHS! and that pit was likely only 10's of feet deep and thick.




it wasnt a thing of strength, but of leverage. he also self admittedly said he couldnt apply leverage, so he had to wait to sink to the bottom, and bust out when it dried... the wet cement was what slowed his progress. so theoretically solidifying something around him would be less hassle than putting him in something that he cannot get leverage on.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
It's a good strategy, just not for Juggernaut. His forward momentum will indeed take him through Adamantium EVENTUALLY. It will take a helluva long time, but he will. Which means that he's still in the fight, since he can return to the battlefield under his own power. If Silver Surfer leaves, then he loses the fight.

Oh, and the cement-filled pit that Spidey tricked Juggy into, well, think about it. He had no way to walk. He was suspended in quick-drying cement. He was above the ground and such. You try moving forward in that situation. He had to continually flexes his muscles and such until he got even just a little bit of space to smash out of there. Honestly, that was a VERY poor showing of Juggy's strength, but they had to make it look like Spidey really got the victory there.

The vB search is down right now, but there was already a thread about Juggernaut being able to walk through Adamantium. It would take him years and such to do it, but he would indeed do it. And since he can, he's still technically in the battle, according to KMC rules. And if SS leaves, he loses the fight, according to KMC rules as well.

Just because a lot of people in a thread say that Jugg can walk through adamantium doesnt mean he can. His forward momentum can and has been stopped by sufficent force (war hulk for example). Its just speculation on your part that he could. If you think he can then back it up.

Either way like Leo said theres many ways for SS to win this. He could just blast his helmet off and KO him with telepathy for one.

Surfer got telepathy? even if he don't he'd win though.

Originally posted by Mainstream
Surfer got telepathy? even if he don't he'd win though.

Some level of telepathy....but seeing as how juggs has no defense, even a child with telepathy could take him out when he doesn't have his helmet.

~wickerman~

Originally posted by Wickerman
Some level of telepathy....but seeing as how juggs has no defense, even a child with telepathy could take him out when he doesn't have his helmet.

~wickerman~

Does Juggy not wear his Cyttorak-produced skull-cap anymore?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Does Juggy not wear his Cyttorak-produced skull-cap anymore?

I did say "when he doesn't have his helmet" Mr. Ultimate Rage

As for current Jugg-are-not......yeah, he also still has the helmet.

~wickerman~

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Does Juggy not wear his Cyttorak-produced skull-cap anymore?

I think he wears it when he's swimming...to avoid getting water in his ears.

Does current Juggernaut's helmet block telepathy? Is he out of Xorn's head yet?

Also, I believe the second helmet, the skullcap, is something he made himself out of metal from the crimson cosmos.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
His forward momentum can and has been stopped by sufficent force (war hulk for example).



war hulk didnt stop juggernaut with force. its very clear in the scans you dont even need the back story to see whats going on. hulk envelopes his entire body in the energy he is drawing on from another dimension (the pocket universe franklin richards created). juggernauts magic doesnt function against it (since its based on the laws of this reality). so juggernaut stops. hulk couldnt stop him with might, in fact he was being pushed back until the energy saved him. every time hulk makes contact with juggernaut throughout the issue (EVERY TIME) he has his fist/sword/body charged with the energy...





Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Its just speculation on your part that he could. If you think he can then back it up.



if you think he cant... back it up...

Originally posted by KillAll
war hulk didnt stop juggernaut with force. its very clear in the scans you dont even need the back story to see whats going on. hulk envelopes his entire body in the energy he is drawing on from another dimension (the pocket universe franklin richards created). juggernauts magic doesnt function against it (since its based on the laws of this reality). so juggernaut stops. hulk couldnt stop him with might, in fact he was being pushed back until the energy saved him. every time hulk makes contact with juggernaut throughout the issue (EVERY TIME) he has his fist/sword/body charged with the energy...


So was any of that actually stated in any way shape or form in the comic or is that just speculation on your part stemming from a glowing hulk?



Originally posted by KillAll
if you think he cant... back it up...

Not how a forum works and not my place to. If you make claims then for them to have any weight in a debate you must back them up. Once that is done if i still disagree its up to myself to provide counter evidence. We clear now?

There is a moment where Apocalypse says something to the effect of "Celestial technology. It nullifies all energy but my own."

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
There is a moment where Apocalypse says something to the effect of "Celestial technology. It nullifies all energy but my own."

Therefore Killalls speculation is incorrect as i thought.

The Celestial tech empowered War Hulk to the point where he could prevent Juggs progression. Cool.

Yeah, in that he was empowered with nullifying powers.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Yeah, in that he was empowered with nullifying powers.

He was empowered to the point where he could prevent Juggs forward momentum through force. Yes i know, you've clarified that. Thanx Swanky.

It sounds like you're trying to put words in my mouth...

not gs . . .

where's mr. whirly . . .

Any perpetuation of the idea that Juggernaut is "unstoppable" is either ignorance of fanboyism. Even classic Juggernaut was stopped, knocked down, and hurt in at least every other appearance. He has a high showing against Thor...he has a high showing against D'Spayre (whose powers conveniently rely on ILLUSION!) Other than that, he's been tossed around and stopped by the Hulk on multiple occasion's, knocked on his ass by Colossus, stopped and pulled to the ground by the Thing...Beat to sh!t by Onslaught....and utterly demolished by purely physical means of Nimrod.

Juggernaut's unstoppability and invulnerability are marginal, they are a hyperbole.

Surfer could defeat him the same way he was beaten by Nimrod he could also use the environment against him. Considering all the experience and versatility of Surfer, how can one honestly think he would have difficulty with one of the most one dimensional characters in Marvel.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
It sounds like you're trying to put words in my mouth...

You said there was a mention of Hulk having Celestial tech in that battle with Hulk did you not and gave that as a reason for the outcome between war hulk and Jugg.

So am i wrong to take from that that the Celestial tech empowered Hulk to the point where he could halt Juggs momentum?

No GS didnt u hear that long winded excuse mixed with speculation about how the extra dimensional power cancelled out Jug's powers?

I agree with u...Hulk got marginally stronger than Jugs and kicked his ass.

Originally posted by Wynndar
No GS didnt u hear that long winded excuse mixed with speculation about how the extra dimensional power cancelled out Jug's powers?

I agree with u...Hulk got marginally stronger than Jugs and kicked his ass.

YEEEEEEAAAHH!!

I could be wrong, but Juggernaut has been beaten by opponents less capable than the Surfer, has he not? Otherwise the Juggernaut character would be running (walking?) rampant through every Marvel comic: the unending threat, the story with no closure.
Ipso fatso, why would the Surfer, then, be unable to defeat Juggernaut?

And while I'm at it...this notion about SS turning rock into admantium? Wouldn't that involve transmutation of elements? I thought Surfer could rearrange molecules, not actually affect matter at the submolecular/atomic level.
Molecular rearrangment does not equal transmutation.

If nothing else, SS beats Juggernaut the same way he would defeat Doomsday...attack the source of J's power, not the result, which is J himself.

Originally posted by Mindship


And while I'm at it...this notion about SS turning rock into admantium? Wouldn't that involve transmutation of elements? I thought Surfer could rearrange molecules, not actually affect matter at the submolecular/atomic level.
Molecular rearrangment does not equal transmutation.

If nothing else, SS beats Juggernaut the same way he would defeat Doomsday...attack the source of J's power, not the result, which is J himself.

I checked. You're right, SS cant transmute elements only rearrange sub-atomic structures.

I think SS wins via psionic means.

Just to clarify people seem to think this is two normal versions.
As I stated both Bloodlusted both want to kill each other and no one will leave until that is done.
Juggs has also shown the ability to flex his arms and break through solid shields of metal before.
He has also knocked down a skyscrapper with a shoulder ram. He has taken Thor's God force Blast head on.
This is bloodlusted Juggs.
My favorite quote in the D-Spayre comic.
Juggernaut, "When I feel Rage nothing can stop me."
After he had his flesh magically removed.
Of course we know what a bloodlusted Silver Surfer can do.

hmm, the transmutation aspect is very unclear. don't trust bios . . . ss has transmuted things in the past. (i've had enough debates with kg and enough scans to know that is true . . .)

and yah, ss wins in a number of ways, as isa id a long time ago . . .

psionics though, isn't too likely i don't think. show an instance of offensive psionic ability by ss and i'll agree . . .

Originally posted by newjak86
Of course we know what a bloodlusted Silver Surfer can do.

I don't...in fact--dare I admit--I've never seen him "bloodlusted."

Anyone got any scans highlighting the above? Would love to see.

Originally posted by leonidas
.

psionics though, isn't too likely i don't think. show an instance of offensive psionic ability by ss and i'll agree . . .

He has shown both psionic and empathic ability on various occassions in comics. As long as he's facing a person with no psionic talent theres absolutely no reason why he shouldnt be able to take Jugg out psionically.

proof? i've asked before and even kg hasn't been able to show it. empathy is i suppose an option, but i don't know that it would work on juggs like it did on hulk.

in any event, wouldn't the force field keep ss from getting the helmet off in the first place? thor's hammer couldn't even touch juggs. how will he get the helmet off? is this even classic juggs we're talking about?

Originally posted by leonidas
proof? i've asked before and even kg hasn't been able to show it. empathy is i suppose an option, but i don't know that it would work on juggs like it did on hulk.

in any event, wouldn't the force field keep ss from getting the helmet off in the first place? thor's hammer couldn't even touch juggs. how will he get the helmet off? is this even classic juggs we're talking about? It is classic Juggs the one that took on Hulk and Thor but bloodlusted.

Originally posted by leonidas
proof? i've asked before and even kg hasn't been able to show it. empathy is i suppose an option, but i don't know that it would work on juggs like it did on hulk.

in any event, wouldn't the force field keep ss from getting the helmet off in the first place? thor's hammer couldn't even touch juggs. how will he get the helmet off? is this even classic juggs we're talking about?

Good point. Surfer won't even be able to get his helmet off at all, not with that forcefield and all.

I still say this is a stalemate. Juggy will never touch Surfer, but Surfer won't be able to fully stop Juggy.

I'm not saying Juggernaut will win. In fact, I'm sure I specifically said he'd lose in the last Juggernaut vs Surfer thread.

But here.

As I thought. The power of the Celestials... supercedes all but my own.

Notice that 'supersedes' is misspelled and that he also explains the Celestial energy has supremacy over Juggernaut's enchantments. Not surprising. Celestials are bad-asses.

He overpowers Juggernaut by depowering him.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
I'm not saying Juggernaut will win. In fact, I'm sure I specifically said he'd lose in the last Juggernaut vs Surfer thread.

But here.

As I thought. The power of the Celestials... supercedes all but my own.

Notice that 'supersedes' is misspelled and that he also explains the Celestial energy has supremacy over Juggernaut's enchantments. Not surprising. Celestials are bad-asses.

He overpowers Juggernaut by depowering him.

Exactly. There was no overpowering. Just depowering.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna


He overpowers Juggernaut by depowering him.

So where does it mention Juggs got depowered? It doesnt in that scan. I hope this doesnt stem from the word "supercedes". If so then your comment is unfounded.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Exactly. There was no overpowering. Just depowering.

Based on what exactly?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So where does it mention Juggs got depowered? It doesnt in that scan. I hope this doesnt stem from the word "supercedes". If so then your comment is unfounded.
Of course not. Thinking a word meant what it means would be stupid.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Of course not. Thinking a word meant what it means would be stupid.

To supercede something is to surpass, to overcome something in terms of power, importance, authority, validity etc.

As i said previously your comments are unfounded if based on this word.

The Celestial tech supercedes all other power except Apocalypses own. Where do you get from that, that Juggernaut was depowered as opposed to the tech empowering Hulk to the point where he superceded Juggs physical prowess.

where did it say that it WAS the tech that enabled hulk to overpower juggs?

Originally posted by leonidas
where did it say that it WAS the tech that enabled hulk to overpower juggs?

Good observation. Potentially another point for the Hulk. However its more than likely the case considering Hulks previous showings against Juggernaut, the fact that War Hulk is imbued with the tech, the fact that during this particular match Jugg was winning until Hulk started glowing with green energy (something normal hulk doesnt do) and at that point Apocalypse smiled and talked of the Celestial tech and its capabilities.

Either way Hulk was empowered to the point where he could overcome Juggs momentum. There is nothing whatsoever to back up the claim that Juggs was depowered. Nothing.

First off Swanky's right about the spelling, it's supersede.

But the word doesn't mean to overcome or to surpass, it means to supplant or displace. Which makes the statement ambiguous. The comment could mean he's referring to the Celestials' power supplanting Hulk's own empowering him, or he could be referring to the Celestials' power having a capability of displacing the enchantments that empower Juggernaut. The context does seems to imply the latter more than the former, considering it seems more a test of the Celestial's power over Juggernaut.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Either way Hulk was empowered to the point where he could overcome Juggs momentum. There is nothing whatsoever to back up the claim that Juggs was depowered. Nothing.

Alright. Hulk was empowered, yes. But you seem to be under the assumption that he was empowered with an increase in physical strength. Which would not be the case, since no pure physical force (Hulk) would be able to stop Juggy. However, Hulk endowed with Celestial Tech, armor that seemed to nullify Juggy's inertia dampening ability, was indeed able to stop the forward momenetum of Juggy.

So, I figure we're both right. Hulk was empowered, Juggy was then depowered by the empowerment received by Hulk.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
First off Swanky's right about the spelling, it's supersede.

I never made an issue of the spelling. Never even referred to it. But the correction is appreciated.


Originally posted by xmarksthespot
But the word doesn't mean to overcome or to surpass, it means to supplant or displace. Which makes the statement ambiguous. The comment could mean he's referring to the Celestials' power supplanting Hulk's own empowering him, or he could be referring to the Celestials' power having a capability of displacing the enchantments that empower Juggernaut. The context does seems to imply the latter more than the former, considering it seems more a test of the Celestial's power over Juggernaut.

To supercede is to surpass and/or to replace in terms of power, importance , validity etc.

With that in mind Apocalypse saying that the Celestial tech supersedes all power but his own means in the context of the scan that it empowered Hulks physical prowess to the point where it rendered Juggernauts own irrelevant. Supplanting it in importance and relevance to the situation if you would.

Either way as i stated from the very beginning Hulk was empowered to the point where he could bring the unstoppable to a halt. There is no mention whatsoever of Juggernaut being depowered and no indication of that in the scans. The Celestial tech kicked in during the battle, empowering Hulk and rendering Juggs own enchantment inconsequential.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Alright. Hulk was empowered, yes. But you seem to be under the assumption that he was empowered with an increase in physical strength. Which would not be the case, since no pure physical force (Hulk) would be able to stop Juggy. However, Hulk endowed with Celestial Tech, armor that seemed to nullify Juggy's inertia dampening ability, was indeed able to stop the forward momenetum of Juggy.

So, I figure we're both right. Hulk was empowered, Juggy was then depowered by the empowerment received by Hulk.

And you're still under the impression that Juggernaut was depowered when there is no mention of that in the captions or dialogue and no indication of that on panel.

XMS was right in saying that supersedes is rather ambiguous. However given how on panel events played out, they plus the dialogue show no depowering whatsoever. But only an empowering of the Hulk.

Juggernaut is only as powerful as the power of Cytorrak allows him to be. He can be stopped physically by anyone beyond Cytorrak in the hierarchy. The success of the Celestial tech illustrates that.

Originally posted by Wynndar
Any perpetuation of the idea that Juggernaut is "unstoppable" is either ignorance of fanboyism. Even classic Juggernaut was stopped, knocked down, and hurt in at least every other appearance. He has a high showing against Thor...he has a high showing against D'Spayre (whose powers conveniently rely on ILLUSION!) Other than that, he's been tossed around and stopped by the Hulk on multiple occasion's, knocked on his ass by Colossus, stopped and pulled to the ground by the Thing...Beat to sh!t by Onslaught....and utterly demolished by purely physical means of Nimrod.

Juggernaut's unstoppability and invulnerability are marginal, they are a hyperbole.

Surfer could defeat him the same way he was beaten by Nimrod he could also use the environment against him. Considering all the experience and versatility of Surfer, how can one honestly think he would have difficulty with one of the most one dimensional characters in Marvel.

Brilliant Post !!!!!!!!!!n

Supersede means to displace/replace/supplant, and often in reference to replacement of something inferior. To supersede can mean to displace an inferior power i.e. to override. In the context of the subsequent comment that Juggernaut was a test of Celestial might, taken in conjunction with his prior statement that the Celestial power supersedes all, it can be interpreted as the Celestial power overriding Juggernaut's enchantments. I can see why one could think that this constitutes a depowering - but it wouldn't. The Celestial tech was simply more powerful. Either way Juggernaut fell to the Celestial tech. (And I'm not quite sure what the point of that entire aside was anyway.)

As yet still undecided what the outcome of the fight will be.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Supersede means to displace/replace/supplant, and often in reference to replacement of something inferior. To supersede can mean to displace an inferior power i.e. to override. In the context of the subsequent comment that Juggernaut was a test of Celestial might, taken in conjunction with his prior statement that the Celestial power supersedes all, it can be interpreted as the Celestial power overriding Juggernaut's enchantments. I can see why one could think that this constitutes a depowering - but it wouldn't. The Celestial tech was simply more powerful. Either way Juggernaut fell to the Celestial tech. (And I'm not quite sure what the point of that entire aside was anyway.)

As yet still undecided what the outcome of the fight will be.

Precisely what ive been saying all along. Basically a Celestial tech empowered Hulk curbstomped Jugg. Simple as that. No evidence of a depowering whatsoever. That was just speculation stemming from the use of the word supercedes which when you look at the context does nothing to infer a depowerment as opposed to just an empowerment of Hulk, therefore supplanting Juggernaut in terms of relevance to the situation. Good to have you on board X.

This is a very one sided fight...

The point I was making was that celestial tech didn't physically make him stronger but effectively made Juggernaut weaker. Like faerie fire on warcraft 3. Doesn't make you do more damage, it makes your enemy take more damage.

And yes, I would put my chips on Surfer.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
The point I was making was that celestial tech didn't physically make him stronger but effectively made Juggernaut weaker. Like faerie fire on warcraft 3. Doesn't make you do more damage, it makes your enemy take more damage.



Im confused. If by effective made Jugg weaker you mean it empowered Hulk physically to the point where Jugg was of no consequence then yeah i agree. But if you still mean that Jugg was depowered then theres no evidence in that comic whatsoever that supports that so youre on your own there.

Originally posted by kgkg
Let just say if there was a nuclear war that destroyed many cities , SS can raise his hand and fix everything. (I have seen similar feat)


That would be so awesome to see shock . *hint hint*

~wickerman~

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Im confused.
Yes.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Yes.

Either way noone agrees with you. So whatever you say. If you wish to believe what you do then thats your prerogative. However until you provide evidence which extends beyond a single ambiguous word your claims hold no weight in threads.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Either way noone agrees with you. So whatever you say. If you wish to believe what you do then thats your prerogative. However until you provide evidence which extends beyond a single ambiguous word your claims hold no weight in threads.

I'm sorry, GS, but you don't speak for everyone, and don't think that you do.

I personally do agree with Swanky. And you're talking about providing proof for our argument, but what about yours? I saw nothing in that scan that proves that Hulk was just empowered physically. So, perhaps you should be the one providing proof as well, instead of just demanding it from Swanky.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I'm sorry, GS, but you don't speak for everyone, and don't think that you do.

I personally do agree with Swanky. And you're talking about providing proof for our argument, but what about yours? I saw nothing in that scan that proves that Hulk was just empowered physically. So, perhaps you should be the one providing proof as well, instead of just demanding it from Swanky.

Youre correct i dont speak for everyone and havent claimed to do so. Ignore my terming.

However if you agree with Swanky then if you wish to continue with this line of argument you'll be needing something considerably more substantial than the word "supersedes".

Both myself and X have made it clear why we believe what we do and have talked about on panel events. Your proof is a single ambiguous word. Not good enough.

The fight was a test of Celestial might. Celestial tech Vs his mystically enhanced power. They fought Hulk started glowing and then he physically overpowered Juggernaut. At this point Apocalypse said the tech supersedes all power but his own. Those two references to the Celestial tech plus the fact that theres was no on panel indication of a depowering of Juggs but an empowering of Hulk means that our interpretation is more conclusive. You have a word which under your interpretation isnt supported by the dialogue or the on panel events.

Either way X laid it down just fine:

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Supersede means to displace/replace/supplant, and often in reference to replacement of something inferior. To supersede can mean to displace an inferior power i.e. to override. In the context of the subsequent comment that Juggernaut was a test of Celestial might, taken in conjunction with his prior statement that the Celestial power supersedes all, it can be interpreted as the Celestial power overriding Juggernaut's enchantments. I can see why one could think that this constitutes a depowering - but it wouldn't. The Celestial tech was simply more powerful. Either way Juggernaut fell to the Celestial tech. (And I'm not quite sure what the point of that entire aside was anyway.)

.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre correct i dont speak for everyone and havent claimed to do so. Ignore my terming.

However if you agree with Swanky then if you wish to continue with this line of argument you'll be needing something considerably more substantial than the word "supersedes".

Both myself and X have made it clear why we believe what we do and have talked about on panel events. Your proof is a single ambiguous word. Not good enough.

The fight was a test of Celestial might. Celestial tech Vs his mystically enhanced power. They fought Hulk started glowing and then he physically overpowered Juggernaut. At this point Apocalypse said the tech supersedes all power but his own. Those two references to the Celestial tech plus the fact that theres was no on panel indication of a depowering of Juggs but an empowering of Hulk means that our interpretation is more conclusive. You have a word which under your interpretation isnt supported by the dialogue or the on panel events.

Either way X laid it down just fine:

I think the problem here is either I'm not writing it correctly, or you're not seeing what I'm saying.

Hulk was empowered, yes. But his empowerment wasn't just a physical boost in strength. Hulk was empowered with Celestial power. Kinda like what Cyttorak is. A celestial. Hulk was empowered with a different kind of celestial power, clearly one that could override Juggy's enchantment. Thus the terminology "Celestial Tech". If it was just something that made Hulk stronger, it would be called "Make-Hulk-Stronger Tech".

And by overriding Juggy's enchantment, it negated his magical enhancements. Thus depowering.

Now, if Hulk had received the power-up, but Juggy didn't lose his magical enhancements and Hulk still beat him...then yes. I'd agree with you that the suped-up Hulk beat him. But clearly Juggy's power was hindered by Hulk's power-up. So it was really the tech that beat Juggy, not Hulk. Since Juggy has continuously shown to able to pound Hulk.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I think the problem here is either I'm not writing it correctly, or you're not seeing what I'm saying.

Hulk was empowered, yes. But his empowerment wasn't just a physical boost in strength. Hulk was empowered with Celestial power. Kinda like what Cyttorak is. A celestial. Hulk was empowered with a different kind of celestial power, clearly one that could override Juggy's enchantment. Thus the terminology "Celestial Tech". If it was just something that made Hulk stronger, it would be called "Make-Hulk-Stronger Tech".

Cytorrak isnt anything remotely like a Celestial.

There wasnt enough info about the nature of Hulks empowerment for you to get into specifics. Youre just speculating now. All we know for sure is that Hulk was empowered to the point where he could overcome Juggernauts own enhancements. So lets just leave it at that.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
And by overriding Juggy's enchantment, it negated his magical enhancements. Thus depowering.

Now, if Hulk had received the power-up, but Juggy didn't lose his magical enhancements and Hulk still beat him...then yes. I'd agree with you that the suped-up Hulk beat him. But clearly Juggy's power was hindered by Hulk's power-up. So it was really the tech that beat Juggy, not Hulk. Since Juggy has continuously shown to able to pound Hulk.

Again just speculation. You have no evidence to support your claim that Juggernauts abilities were reduced. Nothing at all. All we know for sure is that Hulk was empowered enough to override Juggs enhancements. That doesnt equate to a depowerment MetalManx. That just means the Celestial tech is superior to the fragment of Cytorraks power bestowed on Juggernaut. Jugg is only as powerful, strong and durable as that fragment allows him to be. The tech coming from beings a few rungs higher than Cytorrak could obviously overcome Juggs mystically derived abilities. Simple as that. Show evidence that Jugg was depowered, that he lost strength/durability. Present your evidence and your claim cant be challenged. We both know you cant do that so lets just leave it at that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Cytorrak isnt anything remotely like a Celestial.

There wasnt enough info about the nature of Hulks empowerment for you to get into specifics. Youre just speculating now. All we know for sure is that Hulk was empowered to the point where he could overcome Juggernauts own enhancements. So lets just leave it at that.



Again just speculation. You have no evidence to support your claim that Juggernauts abilities were reduced. Nothing at all. All we know for sure is that Hulk was empowered enough to override Juggs enhancements. That doesnt equate to a depowerment MetalManx. That just means the Celestial tech is superior to the fragment of Cytorraks power bestowed on Juggernaut. Jugg is only as powerful, strong and durable as that fragment allows him to be. The tech coming from beings a few rungs higher than Cytorrak could obviously overcome Juggs mystically derived abilities. Simple as that. Show evidence that Jugg was depowered, that he lost strength/durability. Present your evidence and your claim cant be challenged. We both know you cant do that so lets just leave it at that.

Nor do you have the evidence to prove me wrong. Nor do I have the evidence to prove you wrong. And experience tells me that we're not going to convince each other any differently.

So, it seems we have indeed stalemated each other here. Until one of us actually provides evidence, we're both just speculating.

We both know that you can't provide sound evidence for your claim either. So, yes, I agree. Let's just leave it at that.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Nor do you have the evidence to prove me wrong. Nor do I have the evidence to prove you wrong. And experience tells me that we're not going to convince each other any differently.

So, it seems we have indeed stalemated each other here. Until one of us actually provides evidence, we're both just speculating.

We both know that you can't provide sound evidence for your claim either. So, yes, I agree. Let's just leave it at that.

The scan doesnt indicate through dialogue or through the on panel events that Juggernaut was depowered at all. Thats the speculation.

Im just relating events as they happened. No speculation required for my interpretation fortunately. Juggernaut is referred to as a test of Celestial might therefore discounting any claims of depowerment. (How would Juggernaut be a test if he was going to be depowered?) Juggernaut was winning at first, Hulk started glowing and then he overpowered Juggernaut. Apocalypse watching the battle then talks of how the Celestial power supersedes all but his own. Does that not indicate that the Celestial tech empowered Hulk to the point where he overrided Juggs own enhancements?

Either way believe what you will, we both know that i can take events and references from the battle to support my interpretation whereas your case stems merely from the ambiguous nature of the word "supercedes", your interpretation of that word furthermore isnt supported by the dialogue or the on panel events.

So yeah lets leave it at that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The scan doesnt indicate through dialogue or through the on panel events that Juggernaut was depowered at all. Thats the speculation.

Im just relating events as they happened. No speculation required for my interpretation fortunately. Juggernaut is referred to as a test of Celestial might therefore discounting any claims of depowerment. (How would Juggernaut be a test if he was going to be depowered?) Juggernaut was winning at first, Hulk started glowing and then he overpowered Juggernaut. Apocalypse watching the battle then talks of how the Celestial power supersedes all but his own. Does that not indicate that the Celestial tech empowered Hulk to the point where he overrided Juggs own enhancements?

Either way believe what you will, we both know that i cantake events and references from the battle to support my interpretation whereas your case stems merely from the ambiguous nature of the word "supercedes", your interpretation of that word furthermore isnt supported by the dialogue or the on panel events.

So yeah lets leave it at that.

I know you won't really take offense to this, GS, but I just felt that it should be said. You're a dick. You don't know everything, and just because you interpret an event one way does not make your word the final saying.

And actually, I apologize for calling you a dick. But for comic book debates, you really annoy me sometime. Which annoys me, cuz I'm being annoyed by someone over the internet. You must be really bad.

Even if you don't think it is, what you're doing is speculation as well. Until Apoc comes around one day and says: "Oh, hey. By the way. That celestial tech in which I outfitted Hulk? Yea, all it did was boost his physical strength up enough to override Juggernaut's magical enchantment. That's all." ...Then all you're doing is speculating as well.

Believe it if you want, that's fine. I don't really care that much anymore.

And please, don't tell me how I feel. That's also rather annoying.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I know you won't really take offense to this, GS, but I just felt that it should be said. You're a dick. You don't know everything, and just because you interpret an event one way does not make your word the final saying.

Youre quite correct. I really couldnt care less what someone on a comic book forum has to say about me. The fact that you're getting worked up over a comic book debate is hilarious and says alot about yourself. My interpretation of something in general isnt the law but its good to know that

a) in this case i dont have to speculate to support my case

b) My interpretation is shared by quite a few others

Originally posted by Metalmanx
And actually, I apologize for calling you a dick. But for comic book debates, you really annoy me sometime. Which annoys me, cuz I'm being annoyed by someone over the internet. You must be really bad.

Not bothered in the slightest. I have no personal connection with you to be bothered by what you say about me. Youre just words on my PC screen. People have differing opinions on forums its just how it is. For you to get worked up is absurd.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Even if you don't think it is, what you're doing is speculation as well. Until Apoc comes around one day and says: "Oh, hey. By the way. That celestial tech in which I outfitted Hulk? Yea, all it did was boost his physical strength up enough to override Juggernaut's magical enchantment. That's all." ...Then all you're doing is speculating as well.

As far as we saw on panel, a Hulk empowered by Celestial tech overpowered Juggernaut. Thats what we know for sure. You're the one speculating on the nature of the battle not myself. As far as im concerned Hulk received a better power up then the one Jugg is privy to and thats that. Wheres the speculation in that? Apocalypse said Jugg was a test for the techs might, Hulk glowed he won. You'll hear no talk of dampening fields or depowerments from me. Why? Because they werent mentioned or suggested in any way, shape or form.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Believe it if you want, that's fine. I don't really care that much
anymore.

Cool.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
And please, don't tell me how I feel. That's also rather annoying.

Cant see where i did that, however if i did and you find it annoying tough sh*t. Its a forum deal with it.

It was however unintentional if i did do it although i cant see where i did. But yeah whatever.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Youre quite correct. I really couldnt care less what someone on a comic book forum has to say about me. The fact that you're getting worked up over a comic book debate is hilarious and says alot about yourself. My interpretation of something in general isnt the law but its good to know that

a) in this case i dont have to speculate to support my case

b) My interpretation is shared by quite a few others



Not bothered in the slightest. I have no personal connection with you to be bothered by what you say about me. Youre just words on my PC screen. People have differing opinions on forums its just how it is. For you to get worked up is absurd.



As far as we saw on panel, a Hulk empowered by Celestial tech overpowered Juggernaut. Thats what we know for sure. You're the one speculating on the nature of the battle not myself. As far as im concerned Hulk received a better power up then the one Jugg is privy to and thats that. Wheres the speculation in that? Apocalypse said Jugg was a test for the techs might, Hulk glowed he won. You'll hear no talk of dampening fields or depowerments from me. Why? Because they werent mentioned or suggested in any way, shape or form.



Cool.



Cant see where i did that, however if i did and you find it annoying tough sh*t. Its a forum deal with it.

It was however unintentional if i did do it although i cant see where i did. But yeah whatever.

Again, I do apologize about earlier. I'm studying for a big test, so I'm just a bit preoccupied (I know I shouldn't be on the forums, but I'm a glutton for punishment), and got annoyed more easily than I should've. I'm usually the last person in the world to get worked up for something so mundane.

You're right. Apoc never said that the tech mystically empowered Hulk to override Juggy's enchanment. Nor did he say that the tech simply upgraded his strength. That's all I'm trying to say. We both have different, yet equal interpretations on the event. I see it one way, you see it the other. Simply because it was never actually stated straightforwardly.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Again, I do apologize about earlier. I'm studying for a big test, so I'm just a bit preoccupied (I know I shouldn't be on the forums, but I'm a glutton for punishment), and got annoyed more easily than I should've. I'm usually the last person in the world to get worked up for something so mundane.

Nah its cool. I mean admittedly i can find some people annoying on here but you should never lose it. Trollings the way forward

Originally posted by Metalmanx
You're right. Apoc never said that the tech mystically empowered Hulk to override Juggy's enchanment. Nor did he say that the tech simply upgraded his strength. That's all I'm trying to say. We both have different, yet equal interpretations on the event. I see it one way, you see it the other. Simply because it was never actually stated straightforwardly.

Well we've both had our say and this issue isnt entirely relevant to this thread anyway. So lets let other people make up their minds based on whats been said and just leave it at that.

And begun these essay wars have

Oh GS just to let you know by the way when Juggs has gone against other such forces that are magically mystically or just in any nature like them Juggs enchantment has faultered because sufficent ability or possesioon of it can overcome it thus depowering him. A good point is when Juggs has had his eyes cut by a sword. The person swinging the swrod wasn't that strong the sword itself didn't cut him it was because it was forged in a realm of MAGIC and science that it was so forth able to cut Juggs.

GS knows exactly what you fellas are saying, he's just being a troll.
I must say he's entertaining as hell, though.

Good job.

GS is really just speculating at this point but seemsunwilling to concede the point.

This is dumb to argue about. when the surfer could just suck all the air out of juggy and knock him out. or kill him if he wanted to. He could turn the juggy's eyes solid so he couldn't see. Or he could destroy the whole planet and then juggy is helpless as he has nothing to walk on to become unstopable. What was the reason for this debate? SS is very hard to beat.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
This is dumb to argue about. when the surfer could just suck all the air out of juggy and knock him out. or kill him if he wanted to. He could turn the juggy's eyes solid so he couldn't see. Or he could destroy the whole planet and then juggy is helpless as he has nothing to walk on to become unstopable. What was the reason for this debate? SS is very hard to beat.

Nah, but for real, everything you said was wrong.

Originally posted by long pig
GS knows exactly what you fellas are saying, he's just being a troll.
Damnit, I know that too. He's just like whirly and I fall for it all the time.

Interesting match!

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Damnit, I know that too. He's just like whirly and I fall for it all the time.

It always makes me laugh, though.

bump

Originally posted by Warmonger
GS is really just speculating at this point but seemsunwilling to concede the point.

How so? I have nothing to speculate about. If you actually read the comic then look at both mine and X's posts you'll see we're just laying it down how it is. My interpretation is supported by the dialogue and the on panel events, not a single ambiguous word.

You're just blatenly ignoring the explanation by apocalypse so you can jerk us around.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
You're just blatenly ignoring the explanation by apocalypse so you can jerk us around.

What explanation by Apocalypse? That the Celestial Tech supersedes all power but his own and that Juggernaut is a test of Celestial might? If so that really doesnt help your case.

C'MON! You can't be serious...

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
C'MON! You can't be serious...

Uh-huh

You're whole case is based on the fact that Apocalypse uses the word "supercedes" thats very poor when you consider the ambiguous nature of the word and that when you look at the context its used in your interpretation of it isnt favoured. Read X's post again he explained that point.

Apocalypse starts off by saying that Juggernaut is a test of Celestial might. What would be the point of depowering Juggernaut when he wants to find out how powerful the Celestial tech is? Does that make sense to you?

Its like a boxing match where a heavyweight wanting to test out his skills pits himself against a featherweight. Again does that make sense to you?

After the fight starts Juggernaut is winning he's pushing Hulk along the battlefield then the Hulk starts glowing he smiles and he stops Juggernauts momentum and throws him aside like a twig. Juggernaut wasnt depowered, there was no evidence in the scene or the dialogue to support that.

While watching the battle Apocalypse goes on to say that the Celestial might supersedes all but his own. As proven by that battle. The tech rendered Jugg a non factor his importance in the scheme of things was inconsequential. When you combine these few things the fact that Jugg was stated to be a test of the techs might, the fact that Jugg was shocked that he was giving it all he had and then hulk stopped him in his tracks, the fact that while watching this Apoc said the tech superseded all power but his own, where are you getting that Jugg was depowered? From the use of the word supersedes? Thats poor. On panel Hulk glowed he then tossed Jugg to the side. Jugg never glowed he wasnt enveloped in energy to indicate to readers that he was affected. Hulk glowed and then he overpowered Jugg. That fits in with it being stated that Jugg was a test of the might of the tech and the later comment that the Celestial power superseded all but his own.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Uh-huh

You're whole case is based on the fact that Apocalypse uses the word "supercedes" thats very poor when you consider the ambiguous nature of the word and that when you look at the context its used in your interpretation of it isnt favoured.
All definitions listed at dictionary.com work in my interpretation that if Juggernaut's defenses were a house, with no windows, and Hulk's attacks were a burglar, celestial tech would be like giving the burglar the key rather than a sledgehammer or explosives or whatever to just blow the walls down.



It makes perfect sense. How many people do you know that have depowered Juggernaut? Other than Thor and Dr. Strange. It's "piercing damage". The applications of harnessing power that has precedence over all power up to who knows what level are incredible.

It's like the mutant nullifiers on a grander scale. Why work to find a way to have greater control over magnetism to fight magneto when you can be immune and punch him in the face?


Only if the heavyweight turned the other heavyweight INTO a featherweight with his gloves.


Earlier Juggernaut had the aura going.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
All definitions listed at dictionary.com work in my interpretation that if Juggernaut's defenses were a house, with no windows, and Hulk's attacks were a burglar, celestial tech would be like giving the burglar the key rather than a sledgehammer or explosives or whatever to just blow the walls down.

Apocalypse saying the Celestial might supercedes all power but his own does not conclusively mean that Juggernaut was depowered. Thats is but one interpretation which isnt supported by on panel events. Another is that the Celestial power supplanted Juggs in terms of importance and/or authroity in the situation. That fits in just as well and fits in with Apocalypses earlier comment that Juggernaut was a test of Celestial might.



Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
It makes perfect sense. How many people do you know that have depowered Juggernaut? Other than Thor and Dr. Strange. It's "piercing damage". The applications of harnessing power that has precedence over all power up to who knows what level are incredible.

Thor, Strange and another occassion in Gambits own title. Storm and Gambit had to save the depowered Jugg.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
It's like the mutant nullifiers on a grander scale. Why work to find a way to have greater control over magnetism to fight magneto when you can be immune and punch him in the face?

Speculation and not supported. Apocalypse said Jugg was to be a test of Celestial might, other far less powerful beings had depowered Jugg so its no massive feat. Apocalypse said a test of might not useful battlefield applications. From what was shown it was power versus power, Hulk eventually triumphed leading Apocalypse to say the Celestial power superseded all but his own.


Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
Only if the heavyweight turned the other heavyweight INTO a featherweight with his gloves.

More speculation stemming from the word "supersedes"


Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna

Earlier Juggernaut had the aura going.

Its not unusual for Jugg to glow in battle. He often employs shields its a part of his power. Jugg was a test for the might of the tech,. Jugg was winning Hulk glowed, Jugg looked shocked after he got stopped dead in his tracks and the Hulk tossed him aside, leading Apoc to say the Celestial power supersedes all. No mention of a depowerment, just speculation and its not supported.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thor, Strange and another occassion in Gambits own title.
GAMBIT?! How the crap did Gambit depower Juggernaut? Did he throw a cup of magic gumbo on him?


Probably. Depowered Juggernaut is pretty sucky. Why hasn't he busted out of Xorn's head yet? Damn squidboy.



Far lesser than who? Celestials? That doesn't make them wimps, Celestials are monsters.

Plus he said Juggernaut seemed the most powerful of the x-men's non-mutant villains. I don't claim to be on top of x-men but surely they had to of fought more dangerous foes. Or Apocalypse is stupid.

I'm not saying Juggernaut isn't powerful but he's way too over specialized to be a threat to a group who 2/3 of their members have access to his weakness.


He tested the might on the battlefield so clearly battle was one option he had in mind for the use of celestial tech.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
GAMBIT?! How the crap did Gambit depower Juggernaut? Did he throw a cup of magic gumbo on him?


Probably. Depowered Juggernaut is pretty sucky. Why hasn't he busted out of Xorn's head yet? Damn squidboy.



Far lesser than who? Celestials? That doesn't make them wimps, Celestials are monsters.

Plus he said Juggernaut seemed the most powerful of the x-men's non-mutant villains. I don't claim to be on top of x-men but surely they had to of fought more dangerous foes. Or Apocalypse is stupid.

I'm not saying Juggernaut isn't powerful but he's way too over specialized to be a threat to a group who 2/3 of their members have access to his weakness.


He tested the might on the battlefield so clearly battle was one option he had in mind for the use of celestial tech.

Whatever you say but we both know you have nothing besides the ambiguous word supercedes to support your interpretation. Thats hardly the most solid of cases is it?

I'll say no more.

I only have apocalypse's own words. I only have the chef to tell me what's in the soup.

How did Gambit depower Juggernaut?!

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
I only have apocalypse's own words. I only have the chef to tell me what's in the soup.

You have your interpretation of Apocalypses word which doesnt fit in with the context of the scene. I dont need to speculate. Hulk was fitted with tech he fought Jugg he glowed, he won. Simple as that.

Originally posted by Swanky-Tuna
How did Gambit depower Juggernaut?!

Gambit never depowered him. The depowering happened in Gambits title. I'll look for scans tonight, my recolection of that event is patchy at best.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I dont need to speculate.
Well, you are. Given the statement, it could be for either reason that Hulk won.


Pretty much. There wasn't much pizazz to it if you ask me. All he really did was throw Juggernaut elsewhere then get his head stomped on by absorbing man.


Ohhh... so Gambit wasn't part of it? Bleh, don't bother.