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Looking at the movies as a whole...

Dunno if this has been discussed already but.. IMO Qui Gon is responsible for all the trouble...

He is the one that rescued JAR JAR and we know what jar jar is responsible of both in and for the movie...

He also stood strong on the point that Anakin had to be trained... training that turned against the Jedi.

And who was Qui Gon's master??

Dooku.

And you need to watch the movies again... Qui Gon was the only true Jedi. He went against the code because the code was stupid. The Jedi were their own undoing.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Dooku.

And you need to watch the movies again... Qui Gon was the only true Jedi. He went against the code because the code was stupid. The Jedi were their own undoing.

Had Qui Gon lived, he would have trained Anakin right WITH the respect he deserved hence Anakin remaining the most powerful JEDI in the galaxy. Think about it, he was the first one to discover becoming one with the force and appearing as a ghost, although we didnt get the chance to see it .

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Think about it, he was the first one to discover becoming one with the force and appearing as a ghost, although we didnt get the chance to see it .
Even mentioning his name in Episode 3 was so stupid, IMO. If they had continued from that with actually seeing his ghost, maybe it could have worked. But just mentioning his name the way they did was just awful.

Originally posted by Mstr GEKA
Looking at the movies as a whole...

Dunno if this has been discussed already but.. IMO Qui Gon is responsible for all the trouble...

He is the one that rescued JAR JAR and we know what jar jar is responsible of both in and for the movie...

He also stood strong on the point that Anakin had to be trained... training that turned against the Jedi.

And who was Qui Gon's master??

jawdrop
OMG!! Of course!!! He was the one who brought Jar Jar! And Jar Jar was the one who made sure Palpatine got da power! Therefor Qui Gon should be sued and arrested!!! He was Sifo Dyas and a dark jedi like his mentor!

But then again if we go with this logic. It was Qui who picked up Anakin and it was Anakin who murdered the emperor so therefor Qui-Gon is redeemed!

The real culprit behind the disasters and tragedies in the PT was Sidious. Everything was perfectly orchestrated to give him control of the galaxy. He is the one who sent Darth Maul after the Jedi and he is responsible for the death of the only Jedi who could have trained Anakin properly. Qui-Gon is not to blame for thinking out of the box.

Tough call, but i think this has been thought about by everyone

What on Earth makes anyone think the Code is stupid? No it isn't!

There is no 'one true Jedi' vibe about Qui-Gon, he just had a different approach.

The code worked just fine.

But our little Anakin went against it in pretty much every way possible.

He had attachments as well as biased attitudes. Only mistake the jedi ever did was to accept Anakin to be trained.

I agree, they just shouldn't have gone against the rule of age necessary to train a padawan.

Yes.... (I didnt bother reading the last posts! lol)

Qui Gon was only following the prophecy and guess what he was right the whole time

Originally posted by Sesse
Only mistake the jedi ever did was to accept Anakin to be trained.

yeah, but the problem with that is that palps would've still found a way to come to power, and then we'd be short one chosen one.

its hinted...well stated many times that the will of the force guides one's destiny. it was that will that drew the jedi to mos espa.
it was destiny.

i mean, by you're logic we should blame dooku, since he trained quigon, not to mention that he prompted anakin to seek revenge on him, accelerating his turn to the darkside...but then yoda trained dooku, ...so its HIS fault. and what of shmi who just HAD to pick mushrooms when there were sand people about...which of coarse began anakins fall by seeing her die...so its SHMI'S FAULT.

its a pointless debate

Originally posted by Gangularis
yeah, but the problem with that is that palps would've still found a way to come to power, and then we'd be short one chosen one.

That's not the point. It was too big a risk to train a boy that age, and apperantly the rules were correct.

Originally posted by DeVi| D0do
Dooku.

And you need to watch the movies again... Qui Gon was the only true Jedi. He went against the code because the code was stupid. The Jedi were their own undoing.

i agree

some will argue that, but i agree fully.

bail tells the jedi that leia will be loved thus having attachment and obiwan nods with approval.

yoda decides that luke will be sent to tattooine, to live with his family...

according to the code, thats the absolute wrong thing to do. according to the code it would have made far more sense for the twins to not have attachment and be raised by either yoda or obiwan and trained asap.

which leads to the next breaking of the jedi code: training an adult

obviously, yoda felt the code needed revision

Palps couldnt have come to power without Anakin. He needed someone to be his fist, somewhone with incredible powers and public support. What better than a poster boy war hero?

I agree that the jedi code should be more flexible, but that doesn't make Qui-Gon the "only true jedi"

Qui-Gon was just a tool of the force. The force wanted to balance itself...it chose Anakin. Qui-Gon was merely the tool to bring Anakin to power.

Anakin bought fulfilled the prophecy of the one and restored balance to the force it the end so Qui Gon didn't do bad he did good, and it isn't his fault that Anakin turned bad.

Originally posted by Wolfie
Even mentioning his name in Episode 3 was so stupid, IMO. If they had continued from that with actually seeing his ghost, maybe it could have worked. But just mentioning his name the way they did was just awful.

Exactly...

Sorry to ask but what does IMO mean?

Originally posted by PVS
some will argue that, but i agree fully.

bail tells the jedi that leia will be loved thus having attachment and obiwan nods with approval.

yoda decides that luke will be sent to tattooine, to live with his family...

according to the code, thats the absolute wrong thing to do. according to the code it would have made far more sense for the twins to not have attachment and be raised by either yoda or obiwan and trained asap.

which leads to the next breaking of the jedi code: training an adult

obviously, yoda felt the code needed revision

No, that's not true!

When will people remember- LOVE is not forbidden!

It's selfish attachment that is a problem, and they never developed that. And their training was to wait until the correct time.

The Code remains absolutely intact. It has, after all, been designed by the wisest people in the Galaxy over millennia.

Originally posted by steverules
Sorry to ask but what does IMO mean?

Anybody?

In My Opinion.

Or: It's My Onion.

LOL thanx.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
When will people remember- LOVE is not forbidden!



we are talking about family attachment.
in the old order, children are separated from their parents
for the sole purpose of avoiding any attachment. so why
would that change all of the sudden?

the code was for the jedi to be trained and conditioned from the time they are babies. luke and leia grow up with no training.

and yes ush, han and leia were to get married. ep5 and 6 couldnt be more blatent with that fact. a jedi was to be married.


and so help me god, if i EVER meet GL i will get him to declare the obvious and record it, and send you the recording.

han and leia were to be married.
jedi are forbidden from such attachments.
the code was to be broken. deny what ever else i say,
but you cant deny that.

the code was revised

If they are taken away from their parents why did qui gon try and free annies mother, or was he gonna free her and leave her on tatooine.

Originally posted by PVS
some will argue that, but i agree fully.

bail tells the jedi that leia will be loved thus having attachment and obiwan nods with approval.

yoda decides that luke will be sent to tattooine, to live with his family...

according to the code, thats the absolute wrong thing to do. according to the code it would have made far more sense for the twins to not have attachment and be raised by either yoda or obiwan and trained asap.

which leads to the next breaking of the jedi code: training an adult

obviously, yoda felt the code needed revision

This is true, but of course Yoda can't raise a baby, when proper aged they should've become personal padawan's of both. But of course Lucas couldn't have thought about that when he made the OT, but it is another reason why Lucas shouldn't have put the birth and death scene in ROTS.

Damn Lucas!!

Originally posted by steverules
If they are taken away from their parents why did qui gon try and free annies mother, or was he gonna free her and leave her on tatooine.

Because he is the rebel.
Actually the code was a good rule, jedi shouldn't know their parents, it will only lead to suffering eventually and lead to the dark side as Yoda predicted.

Originally posted by Gangularis
yeah, but the problem with that is that palps would've still found a way to come to power, and then we'd be short one chosen one. And also short one Darth Vader, and maybe plus one Mace Windu.

Originally posted by PVS
its hinted...well stated many times that the will of the force guides one's destiny. it was that will that drew the jedi to mos espa.
it was destiny.

i mean, by you're logic we should blame dooku, since he trained quigon, not to mention that he prompted anakin to seek revenge on him, accelerating his turn to the darkside...but then yoda trained dooku, ...so its HIS fault. and what of shmi who just HAD to pick mushrooms when there were sand people about...which of coarse began anakins fall by seeing her die...so its SHMI'S FAULT.

its a pointless debate

And then there's the guy who trained Yoda, and Shmi's parents for having her. Don't forget Watto, who let Cliegg Lars buy her and set her free, and you can in turn blame their parents, and their parents' parents, and just about everyone in their race to begin with...

What are we talking about?

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Had Qui Gon lived, he would have trained Anakin right WITH the respect he deserved hence Anakin remaining the most powerful JEDI in the galaxy. Think about it, he was the first one to discover becoming one with the force and appearing as a ghost, although we didnt get the chance to see it .

I doubt that. Qui-Gon wouldn't have done better then Obi-Wan because Qui-Gon was just as strict on Obi as Obi was on Ani.

Originally posted by Mstr GEKA
Looking at the movies as a whole...

Dunno if this has been discussed already but.. IMO Qui Gon is responsible for all the trouble...

He is the one that rescued JAR JAR and we know what jar jar is responsible of both in and for the movie...

He also stood strong on the point that Anakin had to be trained... training that turned against the Jedi.

And who was Qui Gon's master??
people dont seem to understand this without anakin obi wan wouldve died without the clones everyone wouldve died jar jar had no choice but to give him supreme power or else the droids wouldve killed anakin obi and padme without obi grievous might defeat the jedi they sent after them thus destroying the rest of the jedi with his army that he had on utapua and of course without padme no luke or leia Quigon was smart to train anakin because he brought balance to the force at the end and tought immortality to yoda and Obi which we may see in the upcoming tv show

If you think about it, if Palpatine did not get the emergency powers, the Republic would have been demolished, and Palpatine would have just gotten power that way.

Originally posted by bobcrickett
If you think about it, if Palpatine did not get the emergency powers, the Republic would have been demolished, and Palpatine would have just gotten power that way.

No. That is a really big misconception. nono

Palpatine needed the whole republic and it's power, he couldn't just destroy it and build it up again. If the republic's political power had crumbled, then Sidious really had to force a universal political lawsystem to dictate the whole universe and the resistance to that would have been a million times bigger than shown in the OT.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, that's not true!

When will people remember- LOVE is not forbidden!

It's selfish attachment that is a problem, and they never developed that. And their training was to wait until the correct time.

The Code remains absolutely intact. It has, after all, been designed by the wisest people in the Galaxy over millennia.

No offence, but I disagree. The code was flawed and that is why the Force became unbalanced. The Sith evolved and the Jedi didn't.

In the novel, Yoda says that the old way isn't the only one and the Jedi needed to change. Before anyone says EU, consider what happens in the movie. Yoda approves of Luke and Leia having a 'normal' upbringing because he realises at last that having attachments is not a bad thing and will not automatically lead to evil.

The 'no attachment' thing has always struck me as off. In real-life people have attachments and that doesn't mean they are incapable of letting go. If someone is in love and their partner passes away, they grieve certainly, but they can and do move on.

The code is what led to the Jedis' downfall because it kept them from changing. This is shown in the movie.

It was PADME's fault! Is was she who called for a vote of no confidence on Chancellor Valorum, paving the way for Palpatine to become supreme chancellor. You see palp's simmering smile when she makes the call.

But she too was manipulated by Palpatine. In fact if she hadn't called for Valorum's ouster, she still could have fought the trade fed boys alone anyway. And she beat them. So she had no need to oust Valorum, she was her strongest supporter.

Sorry,. but GL himself has spoken on the vital nature of the 'no attachment' rule, so that is absolute.

Jedi must NOT form attachments else they will fall to the Dark Side, and that is true continuously. The logic of it is explained in the movie and by GL.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry,. but GL himself has spoken on the vital nature of the 'no attachment' rule, so that is absolute.

Jedi must NOT form attachments else they will fall to the Dark Side, and that is true continuously. The logic of it is explained in the movie and by GL.

Yeah, I see your point, but if that's the case why did Yoda allow Luke and Leia to have a 'normal' upbringing (and thus forming attachments) if it's such a big no-no? Luke had attachments and he turned out fine.

Again, no offence.

The ways of the Jedi had changed drastically by the time of the New Jedi Order, as well as the circumstances of Luke's training.

Well if you want to get technical, the whole thing is Padme's fault. SHE is the one who motioned for a vote of no confidence in Chancellor Velourum(spelling?), SHE was the one who allowed Anakin to be with her when she KNEW better (even telling Anakin himself). It was HER who left Jar Jar as a representative (who suggested the emergency powers). And, we don't know this for sure but we'll give it a go here....if she let her guards go with her to Mustafar, its a good chance OB1 wouldn't have gotten on board and she possible could have brought Ani back(doubtful, but you never know). BUT NOOOOO, she had to go get knocked up by a jedi, and the whole 9, so i blame her. Granted Anakin and Palps were responsible for their own actions, set the pins up for Palps to knock down.

And yes while Qui Gon was strict, he showed respect to Anakin AND OB1, and i think its pretty safe to say Anakin would have felt more appreciated in the long run, thus preventing so much time spent with Palps, who he was hanging out with because he made him feel the way the Jedi and OB1 SHOULD have been making him feel. Not kissing his ass or anything, but just say every now and again, "hey good job"...or "thank you....sincerely" Ya know? But no, they treated him like bantha poodoo from the time he set foot in that council room. I mean look at his track record:

Trained by Yoda's apprentice - plus being as he was one of the most powerful.

Trained by a future Sith Lord - plus because while having the same traits, he maintained his positive outlook becoming one of the most knowledgeable Jedi's ever.

He TRAINED of of the "best" Jedi's ever - plus
And then look at OB1...he had ONE apprentice to train, and look what happened...

And before you say it, no....just because you are good or even great at something, doesn't mean you're gonna be good at teaching.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry,. but GL himself has spoken on the vital nature of the 'no attachment' rule, so that is absolute.

Jedi must NOT form attachments else they will fall to the Dark Side, and that is true continuously. The logic of it is explained in the movie and by GL.
If it is really as simple as that, then George is not the great storyteller I thought he was...

Originally posted by chilled monkey
Yeah, I see your point, but if that's the case why did Yoda allow Luke and Leia to have a 'normal' upbringing (and thus forming attachments) if it's such a big no-no? Luke had attachments and he turned out fine.

Again, no offence.

Err, no, Luke doesn't actually have any attachments in the way Anakin did. He's got no family (that he knows of) and he doesn't actually fall into any form of possessive love with anyone.

Luke is a very special case caused by the fact that everyone had to stay hidden for so long- a last desperate gamble.

And yes, it is pretty simple, and that's STar Wars for you.

If you become attached to something, you fear to lose it. Fear leada to the Dark Side. The films are an example in point about how vital that rule about attachment is- GL was telegraphing that the Jedi knew of the problem, so we would know what was happening to Anakin.

Any post-ROTJ Jedi Order would have to have the same rule, else they would all start going Dark Sided.

qui gon was far too reckless, he caused most of the problems simply because he wouldnt follow the code.
Doing things like influencing Boss Nass and trying to mind-trick different people for his own gain was nothing short of defiant to the Jedi code.
I know he THOUGHT he was doing right but thats also the point , he blinded himself and most importantly of all he did not follow the councils advice with regards to Anakin.

Its quite ironic that Qui Gons ignorance is revealed with the very first conversation he has with Obwan at the very start of Ep 1, Ob1 sensed something "illusive" and yet Qui Gon did not simply becasue he choose to believe in keeping his thoughts " here and now", Ob1 then questions Qui Gons thoughts based on the fact that Yoda had told Ob1 to be "mindful of the force" . so what does qui gon do? tells him "no, not at the expense of the moment" which is a direct defiance of what Yoda had taught OB1. Qui Gon does this throughout the whole of Ep1....

1. " not at the expense of the moment" - defiance of Yodas teachings

2. " we could use a transport?" mind trick on Boss Nass

3. " Your gods demand his life belongs to me" mind trick on Boss Nass

4. " I dont sense anything" Qui Gons oversight of the "illusive'' feeling his very own Padawan senses.

5. " republic credits will do nicely" attempt to mind trick Watto ) basically rip him off)

6. " The queen doesn't need to know" - when Padme questions Qui Gons decision to back Anakins with his deal with watto.

7. Then theres the whole bet thing with Watto that couldve stranded the queen on Tatooine for a " very long time'" even OB1 questioned Qui Gons actions over this.

8. " he is to be trained as a Jedi" qui gon telling Shmi about anakins future without knowing wether the coucil will actually approve the training

9. " I will train him then , I take anakin as my padawan" - this ones a real doosey!! totally defieing the coucil AND going against the code which has stood for over a thousand generations

10. " OB1 is ready, there is little more he can learn from me" - making the decision that OB1 is ready for the trials when its not his decision to make.

11. " please dont defy the council master" , " I shall do what I must OB1" - once again this clearly shows Qui Gons total defiance of the Jedi Council.

12. " promise you will train the boy Ob1, he IS the chosen one" - with Qui Gons last breath he heaps the greatest burden onto his Padawan and makes him promise to train anakin with knowing wether he is capable of doing so.

Not to mention what sort of effect all of this must have on OB1 and Anakin in seeing Qui Gons reckless ways, not adzactly a good Jedi role-model.

That's nonsense- he wasn;t doing it for his own gain; his actions were .a all selfless in the aid of others and b. only were used in reasonable circumstances.

He didn't try to trick Watto into giving the parts away for free, he just wanted Watto to take his currency- which was perfectly legal.

"Not at the expense of the moment" is NOT defying Yoda- did you watch ESB or not?

Your Gods demand his life belong to me- was simple fact.

The Queen doesn;t need to know- it was his mission, he had the right to decide that.

And he did not take Anakin as his Padawan precisely because the Council said no. he did not defy that, he just wanted Obi-Wan promoted so that he COULD take Anakin.

You must watch more carefully. Yes, QGJ was very reckless and deifant, but there was great wisdom there too.

He was one of the more decent Jedi IMO,(except Obi, he was a'ight) even Yoda seemed rather...cold-hearted in comparison, Mace does of course, and movie-wise no other Jedi is looked upon as much.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Sorry,. but GL himself has spoken on the vital nature of the 'no attachment' rule, so that is absolute.

Jedi must NOT form attachments else they will fall to the Dark Side, and that is true continuously. The logic of it is explained in the movie and by GL.

han and leia were to be married at the end of ep6. the fat man either contradicted himself or you're misinterpreting his words.

If qui gon had to take on annie (I know it would never happen but just suppose it did) would he have won or lost?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Err, no, Luke doesn't actually have any attachments in the way Anakin did. He's got no family (that he knows of) and he doesn't actually fall into any form of possessive love with anyone.

no, he had an attachment to his sister and feared losing her either by death or to the darkside. ben senses this and tells luke that his feelings do him credit but they could be made to serve the emporer. those feelings are attachment...love.

ANAKIN was the special case in that his love was based in fear. his attachment was the exception in that it only made him want more power to control their destinies, so in the end it became selfish, wanting more and more power. luke made a similar mistake in rushing to bespin in ep5 and by releasing his anger on vader in ep6 and almost turning to the darkside.

and yes, his love for leia was dangerous as well, perhaps because he just found out about her. all i know is that when beru and owen died, he was able to let go, with ZERO jedi training. it was his good nature that made him able to let go, and which made it clear that it might be a good idea to train him imho

it seems to me that the jedi (yoda and ben) had but one of two choices:

-allow a fully developed person to train
-allow a baby who is not developed emotionally AT ALL to train. a clean slate.

luke was the first
the old order was the second

but in a way, anakin was an abomination of a jedi, torn away from his mother when he was already attached but not old enough to be able to let go. this lead to his turn, not that she was killed but that losing her at such a young age (and yet too old) left a void in him which would never be filled. and then to watch her die...

Originally posted by Ushgarak
He didn't try to trick Watto into giving the parts away for free, he just wanted Watto to take his currency- which was perfectly legal.

Buuuuuullshit! He WAS trying to screw Watto. Spekdeh is right, Givin' him useless currency would be tha same as just straight-up stealin' the parts.

Anakin loses his mother, lets his anger take control, kills tuskans.
Luke loses his Uncle and Aunt, makes an angry face, lets go of it.

Anakin fears losing his wife, joins the darkside to prevent it.
Luke fears losing his sister, fights the darkside to prevent it.

And with the Han/Leia wedding thing, Leia hardly qualifies as a Jedi at that time, so the Code doesnt apply to her.

Qui Gon is like Luke, he does what he feels/knows is the right thing to do, up to a certain point.


Side question: Could Yoda and Obi Wan also feel the good in Vader, or only Luke?

i guess GL should have put a big neon sign over lukes head when he attacked vader that said
"i am turning to the darkside. thats why im foaming at the mouth and my eyes are popping out of my skull with pure anger and hatred. what i'm doing is BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD"

Yeah but he didnt join the darkside. He saw what he was doing and stopped himself.

the fact that he was able to stop himself doesnt chage the fact that he did the absolute wrong thing.

Sure. But he stopped himself, whereas Anakin kept going.

And now Ive forgotten what the point of this was

Originally posted by Sir Mist

Anakin fears losing his wife, joins the darkside to prevent it.
Luke fears losing his sister, fights the darkside to prevent it.

that was the point i was arguing

and to answer your question, i get the impression that yoda and ben were to wrapped up in oldschool jedi dogma to be able to even grasp that there would still be good in vader, let alone trying to sense it.

Originally posted by PVS
that was the point i was arguing

Ah ok.

Originally posted by PVS
and to answer your question, i get the impression that yoda and ben were to wrapped up in oldschool jedi dogma to be able to even grasp that there would still be good in vader, let alone trying to sense it.

Sounds like the Jedi do need love or whatever to fully understand things then. Padme could feel it, Luke could feel it, but two Jedi masters who follow the code cant.

and thats the finality of the story imho.
the jedi, however pure and virtuous, were mistaken.
they saw things in black and white, where luke proved that
its possible for the darkside to NOT dominate ones destiny.
he dove into it and came back, and then the impossible:
anakin was redeemed.

I think they felt it because one, they felt genuine emotions towards Vader/Anakin, whereas Yoda and OB1 were looking at it from a "Im a jedi that needs to destroy a sith" point of view. I know OB1 was hurt by anakins turn, and told him he loved him, but i dont feel it was the same type of of real down home "love". More or less, they wanted to feel it and he wanted THEM to feel it.

I hope that makes sense.

Originally posted by Mstr GEKA
Looking at the movies as a whole...

Dunno if this has been discussed already but.. IMO Qui Gon is responsible for all the trouble...

He is the one that rescued JAR JAR and we know what jar jar is responsible of both in and for the movie...

He also stood strong on the point that Anakin had to be trained... training that turned against the Jedi.

And who was Qui Gon's master??
thats crap. if Qui Gon had lived, Annie would have been less likely to turn. IMO, Yoda is the reason everything came crashing down around the Jedi. why?
1. First, he allowed Annie to be trained.
2. Secondly, after allowing annie to be trained, he placed him in the hands of Obi Wan, an unaccomplished and young Jedi master. Yoda should have trained Annie himself, or given him to Mace Windu or another older Jedi.
3. in ROTS, Yoda goes to fight Palpy and sends Obi Wan to fight Annie. Why not both go and fight Palpy together? if they had killed Palpy, then went together and taken their time with Annie, everything would have turned out fine.

At least Obi1 learned good phrases from his master...

Qui Gon: (EP1) "I shall do what I must, Obi Wan..."
Obi1: (Ep3) " Only a sith deals in absolutes. I will do what I must"

Good job, OBi1.

Originally posted by PVS
no, he had an attachment to his sister and feared losing her either by death or to the darkside. ben senses this and tells luke that his feelings do him credit but they could be made to serve the emporer. those feelings are attachment...love.



He aid the fact that Luke worked it out did him credit!

But yes, those possible feelings of Luke ARE very dangerous to him. In fact, it was mention of his sister being hared that set Luke on a path that NEARLY made him mirror his father. That whole point does nothing bit confirm GL's words. And he didn't let go of Beru dying at all- he wanted revenge.

Which I am not misinterpreting- he is very clear. We have no idea what will become of han and Leia. Perhaps Leia, in any case, will never be trained. No contradiction- because we have no facts.

GL makes it very clear that attachment is very bad for a Jedi- and that ALL attachment leads to fear. This is an absolute. Yoda even talks of the importance of being able to let go. Sorry, this is the way it is. The Dark Side can never be used for good. If you think otherwise you spectacularly missed the point of the films. Star Wars morality IS black and white- it is the very basis that GL created Star Wars.



"Buuuuuullshit! He WAS trying to screw Watto. Spekdeh is right, Givin' him useless currency would be tha same as just straight-up stealin' the parts."

Crap. If he was trying to cheat Watto he would have tried to get it for free. Fact is, Watto, legally speaking, should have accepted those credits.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Had Qui Gon lived, he would have trained Anakin right WITH the respect he deserved hence Anakin remaining the most powerful JEDI in the galaxy. Think about it, he was the first one to discover becoming one with the force and appearing as a ghost, although we didnt get the chance to see it . like obi-wan said in the reveng eof the sith game "i only wanted what was best for you Anikan i wasent prepared to train some one like you" that is probably true so if he was with qui-gon he would of got respect

Originally posted by Ushgarak
He aid the fact that Luke worked it out did him credit!

Originally posted by Ushgarak
But yes, those possible feelings of Luke ARE very dangerous to him. In fact, it was mention of his sister being hared that set Luke on a path that NEARLY made him mirror his father.

"bury your feelings...they do you credit, but THEY COULD BE MADE TO SERVE THE EMPORER"

how much more clear could he have been that
1- it was good for luke to have such feelings
2- however good, those feelings were dangerous if the emporer found out

point is, he was never told that such attachment (and YES its attachment) is wrong or forbidden. just that its dangerous...and such is life

Originally posted by Ushgarak
That whole point does nothing bit confirm GL's words. And he didn't let go of Beru dying at all- he wanted revenge.

i dont think thats accurate at all. beru and owen were never mentioned again. not even after that scene where he finds them dead. i thought star wars was so 'simple' and yet you're interpreting some hidden plot.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Which I am not misinterpreting- he is very clear. We have no idea what will become of han and Leia. Perhaps Leia, in any case, will never be trained. No contradiction- because we have no facts.

GL makes it very clear that attachment is very bad for a Jedi- and that ALL attachment leads to fear. This is an absolute.

i was never aware of such an absolute statement from GL. could you please quote?

I could see how attachments COULD be a disadvantage and be dangerous ground, IF YOU LET THEM. Yoda said, "mourn them do not, miss them do not, rejoice for those who become one with the force." (maybe not word for word, but you know what part im talking about), but how did he act when order 66 was executed? It didn't look like he let go of everything/one he feared to lose, he looked pretty upset, like he was, i don't know SAD. Why be sad if you don't have SOME type of attachment to someone? And why have funerals for fallen Jedi? Funerals are for mourning the dead....Anakin had attachments in a time when he was told not to, and he couldn't handle the situation, so he felt he had to hide those attachments, whereas Luke was never told not to have attachments and THATS what prolly saved him from turning to the darkside. He realized what anakin didn't, that if you're fighting something to protect the ones you love, joining them doesn't help...

You just need to listen to his commentaries and hos continual takking about how it is the nature of attachment that led Anakin down the dark path, PVS, it is a very common theme in his sayings- and is also directly taken from the Buddhist beliefs that are the main inspiration for the Force.

And I am not reading in anyhting extra- it seemed damned obvious to me that Luke wanted revenge. Just look at his face.

Luke's attachment could- and very nearly did- serve the Emperor.

I am afraid this fact remains. Attachments cause fear, feer leads to the Dark Side. This is a universal rule, it is not wrong, and it cannot be denied. He even just specifically hammered the point home hard again in his latest film where Yoda directly warns against the problem with attachment. It's just the way it is.

"The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth. They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith, page 213"

See? No attachments. Period. or if you want it more simply:

"Anakin turns into Darth Vader because he gets attached to things."

Jedi have to let go. Yoda says it, GL says it, everything about Star Wars says it. Having an attachment means you have not let go- and so you have failed as a Jedi.

then i am glad i am not a jedi. going through life with no one as an attachment sounds like no friends or anyone you hold close to your heart. i dont see how that is possible, thats like going through life as a zombie.

I don't trust Lucas.

When thinking back to the Qui-Gon, Obi Wan/Maul fight, then our little padawan was very wrong in getting so mad even though the dark side helped him defeat Maul.
Obi should've been spanked by Yoda!

If there were only more Jedi like Gui Gon Jinn tbqh. Dooku even said in EpII Qui Gon woulda seen through all of that shit. He would've known what the Chancellor was up to, and furthermore i'm pretty sure he'd stand against the action of the council telling Anakin to spy on the Chancellor, they knew it was wrong they didnt even put it on record the sly bastards.
And I bet Sidious knew Qui Gon would be problematic so he unleashed Maul to rid of him and his apprentice, which off course we know Maul only did half of the work.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Star Wars morality IS black and white- it is the very basis that GL created Star Wars.


While I agree with all your points made in this thread, you have to wonder about that one given that it was Obi-Wan who said "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Originally posted by Jedi Priestess
While I agree with all your points made in this thread, you have to wonder about that one given that it was Obi-Wan who said "Only a Sith deals in absolutes."

Nah, that was just a mem'rable theatrical line. The Jedi are always saying oxymorons in the saga. 'Naw mean?

i understand that ush, but there are degrees to attachment.

obiwan was attached to anakin.
"anakin, dont try it!"
here he is dealing with a sith. by all aspects of the jedi code, anakin is lost and must be killed. and here we have perhaps the most ideal jedi begging his friend to not let himself be killed, which very well could have proven to be fatal. he could have died due to his own attachment.

(in tears) "you were my brother anakin!!! i loved you!!!"
attachment, even at the bitter end


"The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth. They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

i think the rift in ideas is created by the word "attachment". GL means attachment as in greed, not being able to let go. but attachment cannot be black and white. obiwan DID have an attachment to anakin. that attachment was love. he did what he had to do, but in your black and white world of star wars, obiwan should have just cut him down, said " *sigh* oh well", and whistled a merry tune as he skipped back to padme's starship. well that wasnt the case. instead, it scarred him and forced him to live with a terrible bitterness for his old friend, never wanting to grasp the fact that there was still good in vader. but padme and luke felt that good. and WHY? because they were not trained as jedi in the sense of the old code. they were just regular people.

how much more obvious could it have been that luke was BETTER than a jedi, in that he could find hope in the hopeless. his own father killed his mentor, tortured his friends, blew up his sisters home world, cut off his hand, and threatened the very existance of all he knew and loved. any jedi would have considered vader dead to them, as way par for the code. but after all that, luke had compassion and HOPE for his father.

the finality of RotJ was that luke was right and the jedi were wrong, or rather mistaken.
"once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny"
"he's more machine now than man...twisted and evil"
in a sense they were accurate, but their black and white thinking left them blind to the very thing that SAVED the galaxy: a sith COULD be redemed, given the right influence.

if the saga had played out according to what the ideal jedi would have done, luke would have tried to kill vader and sidious, and he would have FAILED. whether struck down or turned to the darkside, a strict adherence to the code would have left everything in darkness.

the jedi were mistaken ush, thats the whole point of the conclusion.
thats what set luke above ALL, and why he is the true hero of the story imho. he did the ABSOLUTE TABOO of the jedi code. "this is your life". a jedi NEVER parts with his saber. and what conclusion did luke come to in the end? he lost the saber. he refused to do the duty of an old republic jedi. and that was the very right thing to do.

How is Qui-Gon guilty for Anakin. If it wasn't for Qui-Gon the Sith wouldn't have been destroyed because Anakin did fulfill the prophecy.

Originally posted by ESB- 1138
How is Qui-Gon guilty for Anakin. If it wasn't for Qui-Gon the Sith wouldn't have been destroyed because Anakin did fulfill the prophecy.

Yeah......you gotta point there.....

Originally posted by ESB- 1138
How is Qui-Gon guilty for Anakin. If it wasn't for Qui-Gon the Sith wouldn't have been destroyed because Anakin did fulfill the prophecy. rite u are

there are so many ways to look at this. i like the post about luke being the true hero though.

yeah, i always felt that he was the real hero, as was obiwan in the PT.
sure the story was about anakin, but i dont think that makes him the hero