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Here's the scenario:

All Jedi that were on Geonosis are on Malachor V invading the Trayus Academy, they must fight their way through the Sith Assassins, Marauders, Apprentices, and Lords to get to the center, where the surviving Jedi must take down Darth Traya and Darth Malak. Can they do it?

KOTOR Sith, I mean come on nearly evryone there was killed and they were also killed by f***ing droids. Now tell me how will they stand up to war hardened sith?

They were outnumbered 200 to 1,000,0000. That's for every 1 Jedi there are 5,000 droids.

They won't. Invisible sith assassins, minor sith masters and lords, a guy who whups ass and a sith lady who can instakill jedi masters.

Um. Yeah.

So, could 200 Jedi beat the Exile?

Jedi take this. There were maybe fifty guys on Trayus. I would be surprised if the Jedi lose 50. Mace can almost equal Malak alone. With Fisto, Malak would die. Luminara, Sora, Obi-wan, Mundi, and Koon would easily take Kreia.

^^ My point exactly. I was just seeing whether people paid attention and knew what I was talking about. Still I don't know if the Jedi can do it, but I don't think they would outright lose.

You forgot Yoda. He was on Geonosis. And Yoda can take Malak and Trayus (Not at the same time)

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Jedi take this. There were maybe fifty guys on Trayus. I would be surprised if the Jedi lose 50. Mace can almost equal Malak alone. With Fisto, Malak would die. Luminara, Sora, Obi-wan, Mundi, and Koon would easily take Kreia.

No, you're wrong. Don't be a jedi-biased, Glentract. You do it in every thread that includes the PT jedi.

90 % of the jedi on Geonosis used Niman and were slaughtered like dogs inside of a few minutes. They were horrible fighters.

There are MORE than fifty Sith at Trayus academy. Hell, there's close to twenty just to greet the Exile at the door. These are enemies who feed on the Force strength of their targets and become strong in turn.

Second, Malak is DLotS and has uber powers, and Kreia is better than Yoda. Oh, and it doesn't hurt that nearly every PT jedi from Geonosis hasn't even fought a Sith (much less a bunch of invisible ones and the minor Sith LORDS and Sith MASTERS and Sith MARAUDERS that stalk the halls) except for Obi-Wan.

Exactly. They'll probably have no idea how to counter opponents who use their powers against them, are more brutal then them, and who can form decent stratgies and engage in H2H combat.

Yoda could take and defeat Malak. But Kreia? No.

Kreia would zap Yoda.

Originally posted by Ianus
No, you're wrong. Don't be a jedi-biased, Glentract. You do it in every thread that includes the PT jedi.

Don't call me Jedi biased. I argued against them for what was easily 150,000 characters against Nai.

Originally posted by Ianus
90 % of the jedi on Geonosis used Niman and were slaughtered like dogs inside of a few minutes. They were horrible fighters.

They were outnumbered 5,000 to one in an open field. The Geonosians also beought in heavy weapons that couldn't not be deflected by a saber(a sonic canon took out two Jedi in one shot).

Originally posted by Ianus
There are MORE than fifty Sith at Trayus academy. Hell, there's close to twenty just to greet the Exile at the door. These are enemies who feed on the Force strength of their targets and become strong in turn.

They obviously can't feed on all of it, or even half, or else the Exile couldn't have defeated them. Remember that the Exile defeated then by himself after he had gotten his force presence back by defeat Nihilus.

Originally posted by Ianus
Second, Malak is DLotS and has uber powers, and Kreia is better than Yoda. Oh, and it doesn't hurt that nearly every PT jedi from Geonosis hasn't even fought a Sith (much less a bunch of invisible ones and the minor Sith LORDS and Sith MASTERS and Sith MARAUDERS that stalk the halls) except for Obi-Wan.

How are these Sith invisible? I seem to remember them having to de-cloak before they could attack.

Also, that statement you made about Malak is borderline fanboy. Uber powers? He was defeated by Revan at minimum twice even even with the power of the Star Forge.

The Jedi have sparred a lot though. KOTOR Jedi rarely fought lightsaber-wielding-Sith either, yet we saw Jedi fighting through the Star Forge faster than Revan did.(The one's who got to Malak before you.)


Also, note Obi-wan in TPM defeating a DLOS. Note Mace defeating one. Neither had ever fought against one before, yet they defeated them.

Don't call me Jedi biased. I argued against them for what was easily 150,000 characters against Nai.

You've argued for the jedi every time they have numerical superiority, despite the fact that they can't play as a good team for shit.


They were outnumbered 5,000 to one in an open field. The Geonosians also beought in heavy weapons that couldn't not be deflected by a saber(a sonic canon took out two Jedi in one shot).

The point was that they were stupid and exposed themselves in infiltrating the arena. This scenario assumes they are trying to infiltrate the Trayus Academy, the Sith home base. They would get slaughtered. The jedi were remarkable failures.

And I doubt it was 5,000 to one. Show me this figure from an official source please.


They obviously can't feed on all of it, or even half, or else the Exile couldn't have defeated them. Remember that the Exile defeated then by himself after he had gotten his force presence back by defeat Nihilus.

They don't feed from it per se; they grow in power because of it. More jedi = more power to grow from. So even if they feed half of that power, they're being empowered to the point of a hundred average jedi on top of their own powers. Pretty impressive.


How are these Sith invisible? I seem to remember them having to de-cloak before they could attack.

Not true. They killed the entire crew of the Harbinger while undetected. Also, they DO attack your party while cloaked, and become visible when you fight back.


Also, that statement you made about Malak is borderline fanboy. Uber powers? He was defeated by Revan at minimum twice even even with the power of the Star Forge.

Oh my god, Glentract... please, stop trying to piss me off already. When have I ever been a Malak fanboy? Ever? When have I ever gone off and been totally, totally over the top with no evidence to support my cause? Never. That's right. So please, stow that "borderline fanboy" crap.

Malak >>> All but two jedi on Geonosis. This is evident. The fact that he easily eliminates the two jedi who were resourceful and powerful enough to make it as far as they did in the Star Forge (Which is farther and faster than Revan's whole team) shows he has good control of the Force. Bastila, whom you argued would be better than Bandon, was frozen in place by Malak while Malak dueled Revan for the first time onboard the Leviathan. Malak -has- power. This is evident, not fanboyism.

Second, Revan is better than Malak. This is also evident. Revan was more or less undisputed master over Malak and Malak never sought to strike Revan down. Revan > Malak. Evident.


The Jedi have sparred a lot though.

Yes, but nowhere like they would forty years after the Sith Wars, back when Jedi were more than mere stewards of a Republic that (As is the case in the PT) haven't seen major Sith action for a thousand years. Today, people aren't exactly great at sword to sword fighting either, because there is little to no use for it, period.


KOTOR Jedi rarely fought lightsaber-wielding-Sith either, yet we saw Jedi fighting through the Star Forge faster than Revan did.(The one's who got to Malak before you.)

They rarely fought lightsaber wielding Sith, huh? Is that why the jedi were killed or turned to the dark side by legions of... Sith? If you want to look at the numbers of Sith in the games as evidence of at the very least numbers of Sith in that era (Or even dark jedi) the ratio is very good that the two DID clash. Saying otherwise is ridiculous.


Also, note Obi-wan in TPM defeating a DLOS. Note Mace defeating one. Neither had ever fought against one before, yet they defeated them.

Obi-Wan was -lucky- to win the battle as he did. Second, Mace is the second best jedi in the line up. Bad sampling. Now if Bultar Swan killed Sith, I would be impressed.

Originally posted by Ianus
You've argued for the jedi every time they have numerical superiority, despite the fact that they can't play as a good team for shit.

That may be true, but that it is because I believe the Jedi would win.

Originally posted by Ianus
The point was that they were stupid and exposed themselves in infiltrating the arena. This scenario assumes they are trying to infiltrate the Trayus Academy, the Sith home base. They would get slaughtered. The jedi were remarkable failures.

And I doubt it was 5,000 to one. Show me this figure from an official source please.

First, the Jedi didn't know that there were droids there. Mace Windu even states in literature of the movie(a novel, but it's Lucas approved and doesn't contradict the movie forrbly) that Jedi each Jedi is worth a hundred Geonosians. Dooku then states "how about a thousand droids" and then droids start marching down the hall a few seconds later, surprising Mace.

It was stated there were a million droids on Geonosis. 1,000,000/200 = 5000

Originally posted by Ianus
They don't feed from it per se; they grow in power because of it. More jedi = more power to grow from. So even if they feed half of that power, they're being empowered to the point of a hundred average jedi on top of their own powers. Pretty impressive.

Where does this power come from? Are they like the crystals in that they feed off extra power?

In anycase, their own powers aren't a lot nor is there any evidence stating that they feed off as much as half.

Logically(assuming I am seeing what they do properly) they can't have much of the Exile's power because he defeated all sic at the same time. Kreia defeated twelve(or was it ten) at a time.

Also, what you said assumes that each one can feed off of mutiple opponents.

Originally posted by Ianus
Not true. They killed the entire crew of the Harbinger while undetected. Also, they DO attack your party while cloaked, and become visible when you fight back.

Not as far as I remember. They walk up and you here that noise that they make when they decloak and then attack. I was never attacked by a cloaked one.

Also, they could have killed each crew member then recloaked.

Originally posted by Ianus
Oh my god, Glentract... please, stop trying to piss me off already. When have I ever been a Malak fanboy? Ever? When have I ever gone off and been totally, totally over the top with no evidence to support my cause? Never. That's right. So please, stow that "borderline fanboy" crap.

I never said you're a fanboy, just said that particular statement is borderline fanboy.

Tell me "Malak is DLotS and has uber powers" doesn't sound majorly exagerated.

Originally posted by Ianus
Malak >>> All but two jedi on Geonosis. This is evident. The fact that he easily eliminates the two jedi who were resourceful and powerful enough to make it as far as they did in the Star Forge (Which is farther and faster than Revan's whole team) shows he has good control of the Force. Bastila, whom you argued would be better than Bandon, was frozen in place by Malak while Malak dueled Revan for the first time onboard the Leviathan. Malak -has- power. This is evident, not fanboyism.

The two Jedi Malak killed were already near dead. Both were frozen in place, he just executed them. Also, after fighting through the Star Forge I doubt they would be anywhere near at their peak.

Originally posted by Ianus
Second, Revan is better than Malak. This is also evident. Revan was more or less undisputed master over Malak and Malak never sought to strike Revan down. Revan > Malak. Evident.

Okay. I already know this. Revan took Malak even when Malak had several artifical advantages. Point?

Originally posted by Ianus
Yes, but nowhere like they would forty years after the Sith Wars, back when Jedi were more than mere stewards of a Republic that (As is the case in the PT) haven't seen major Sith action for a thousand years. Today, people aren't exactly great at sword to sword fighting either, because there is little to no use for it, period.

Did any of those Jedi look old enough to have fought in the Great Sith War?

Originally posted by Ianus
They rarely fought lightsaber wielding Sith, huh? Is that why the jedi were killed or turned to the dark side by legions of... Sith? If you want to look at the numbers of Sith in the games as evidence of at the very least numbers of Sith in that era (Or even dark jedi) the ratio is very good that the two DID clash. Saying otherwise is ridiculous.

Look at it this way though. By the Sith Civil War, there were maybe two hundred SIth tops. During the Jedi Civil War there were thousands. Jedi majorly outnumbered Sith in KOTOR times.

Originally posted by Ianus
Obi-Wan was -lucky- to win the battle as he did. Second, Mace is the second best jedi in the line up. Bad sampling. Now if Bultar Swan killed Sith, I would be impressed.

TPM pushed Maul back a fair bit. I would say he did rather well. Someone like Kit or Cin would have defeated him.

In anycase, are you telling me that the Exile could kill what all two hundred PT Jedi could not?

Glentract, I've had a trying night with customers who are uncompromising and on my nerves. I'll finish this another time. LAter.

See ya.

The sith easily, sith are in general stronger than jedi and these are some of the toughest sith in the galaxy at that time. Also the jedi would have no one that has a shot at Kreia.

Yoda or Mace alone could give her quite a hard time.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yoda or Mace alone could give her quite a hard time.

I doubt it, what Kreia has done is more impressive than anything Yoda or Mace has done, and I dont think we have even seen the full extent of her power if its true Kreia was holding back against the exile.

Hard time? Perhaps. Defeat her? Most certainly not.

First, the Jedi didn't know that there were droids there.

No excuse for such idiotic measures, period.


Mace Windu even states in literature of the movie(a novel, but it's Lucas approved and doesn't contradict the movie forrbly) that Jedi each Jedi is worth a hundred Geonosians. Dooku then states "how about a thousand droids" and then droids start marching down the hall a few seconds later, surprising Mace.

Because Mace was a moron about streategy and jedi died for it. The arrogance of the jedi blinded them to the fact that they WERE mortal. If anything, this makes the case for the jedi look worse. The Sith do have experience with infiltration and murder. The jedi are solitary glory seeking heroes who suck at the very situation they're trying to pull off.


It was stated there were a million droids on Geonosis. 1,000,000/200 = 5000

INdeed. Not all of them were in the arena. If there were, some must have run off and gotten into trouble with the Clone Troopers, hence why they were fighting outside of the arena as well. I'd much closer to a few thousand droids, tops. Most were the skinny ones, too. Pwnz00rs on that one.


Where does this power come from? Are they like the crystals in that they feed off extra power?

Play the game and listen to Kreia, Glentract. She says explcitily that the new Sith (Which include the Sith assassins) are drawn to other Force sensitives and feed on their powers, not actively but more passively. They grow stronger as their opponents grow stronger, period.

In anycase, their own powers aren't a lot nor is there any evidence stating that they feed off as much as half.

What a bunch of shit. Glentract, they feed and become stronger. Half is giving YOU the advantage in the debate, for the sake of argument. This still equates to half the power of the entire attacking force compounded with their Sith abilities, even if that's low end abilities it's more than enough. This makes each and every lower Sith in the place able to contend with an average jedi.

And considering there ARE high level Sith in the academy whom you seem to be overlooking, they can rightfully put higher level council PT jedi to the test.

And forget Malak and Kreia, who can probably hold off a room themselves.


Logically(assuming I am seeing what they do properly) they can't have much of the Exile's power because he defeated all sic at the same time. Kreia defeated twelve(or was it ten) at a time.

Canonically, we don't know. The exile could have just as easily fled from them or tricked them somehow. To say he fought each and every one of them and thus they must be weak is.... weak.

Second, Kreia may very well have killed them all using her uber instakill powers, since the screen blacked out and no one moved and they were dead. This implies power beyond a normal jedi in any case


Also, what you said assumes that each one can feed off of mutiple opponents.

Let's go with the opposite of that- you're assuming they can only feed off of one individual. What evidence do you have that this is the case? I'm curious... Since the ability appears to be utilized by the Sith for the sole intent of KILLING JEDI it would seem that they can do just that using it. Never mentioned just one jedi. In any case, there is very possibly close to two hundred sith in the Trayus Academy. Go count them.


Not as far as I remember. They walk up and you here that noise that they make when they decloak and then attack. I was never attacked by a cloaked one.

They are decloaked based on if they've been hit, if they've been since via an Awareness roll. I have played the game many times and have been attacked by cloaked ones before.


Also, they could have killed each crew member then recloaked.

Uh huh. How ridiculous is this? They killed one member at a time, reactivated their cloak, and moved on? This is silly, Glentract.


I never said you're a fanboy, just said that particular statement is borderline fanboy.

No, it wasn't. I don't see at all how it was. It was very matter of fact.

Tell me "Malak is DLotS and has uber powers" doesn't sound majorly exagerated.

Sounds like an oversimplification to me, really. I could say Kun has uber powers and you wouldn't bat an eye. The point, before you get derailed, is that Malak >>>> PT Jedi.


The two Jedi Malak killed were already near dead. Both were frozen in place, he just executed them. Also, after fighting through the Star Forge I doubt they would be anywhere near at their peak.

This is incorrect. They weren't "already near dead". They were standing fine and he overpowered them via the Force and then killed them at his whim. This shows power, period. And you're assuming they even fought at all. For all we know they slipped in during the confusion. Please, stop nitpicking and BUILD AN ARGUMENT FOR YOUR OWN SIDE.


Did any of those Jedi look old enough to have fought in the Great Sith War?


WTF does this have to do with a thing?


Look at it this way though. By the Sith Civil War, there were maybe two hundred SIth tops. During the Jedi Civil War there were thousands. Jedi majorly outnumbered Sith in KOTOR times.

I don't even see where this is going.


TPM pushed Maul back a fair bit. I would say he did rather well. Someone like Kit or Cin would have defeated him.

Derailing the point. Please, build an argument, don't get off on a rant about everything I had to say. It's unproductive.


In anycase, are you telling me that the Exile could kill what all two hundred PT Jedi could not?

Uh, no. Actually I've said in the past that enemies are loaded into levels to provide gameplay challenge. IN the canonical version I highly doubt the exile fought more than a dozen or so total. But this scenario presumes that they exist for the fight.

How many Jedi were there on Geonosis and how many Sith were in the academy (approximately)?

200 on Geonosis. Between 50 and 100 in Trayus.

Originally posted by Ianus
No excuse for such idiotic measures, period.

The Jedi were planning on fighting the Geonosians. They were positioned in accordnace to that, not to fighting an unknown enemy force.

Originally posted by Ianus
Because Mace was a moron about streategy and jedi died for it. The arrogance of the jedi blinded them to the fact that they WERE mortal. If anything, this makes the case for the jedi look worse. The Sith do have experience with infiltration and murder. The jedi are solitary glory seeking heroes who suck at the very situation they're trying to pull off.

I do concede that Mace was blinded and felt the Jedi more powerful than they actually were, and that he is not the greatest military commander. The Sith lacked a leader by the Sith Civil War(KOTOR 2) though and few remained that were expeinced commanders. There were the assassins who aren't frontline soliders and Kreia(though she was no longer technically their leader) who had fought in the Great Sith War. Even Malak was said to not be much of a military commander( although this was against people who had just been fighting Revan, an act quite hard to follow) and the Sith only regained their advantage against the Republic when others stepped in; such as Saul Karath.

Originally posted by Ianus
INdeed. Not all of them were in the arena. If there were, some must have run off and gotten into trouble with the Clone Troopers, hence why they were fighting outside of the arena as well. I'd much closer to a few thousand droids, tops. Most were the skinny ones, too. Pwnz00rs on that one.

Agreed. Five thousand was an overestimation on my part.

Originally posted by Ianus
Play the game and listen to Kreia, Glentract. She says explcitily that the new Sith (Which include the Sith assassins) are drawn to other Force sensitives and feed on their powers, not actively but more passively. They grow stronger as their opponents grow stronger, period.

My point is, however that even when in a group of ten, including their natural power, they have grown to less than one tenth of any one persons power(Kreia killed ten in a cut scene).

Sorry, the wording on that is bad. I can't think of a better way to say it though.

Originally posted by Ianus
What a bunch of shit. Glentract, they feed and become stronger. Half is giving YOU the advantage in the debate, for the sake of argument. This still equates to half the power of the entire attacking force compounded with their Sith abilities, even if that's low end abilities it's more than enough. This makes each and every lower Sith in the place able to contend with an average jedi.

Like I was trying to say in the previous post, they each get less then one tenth of a groups power. Let me try math(I know you hate it, but sometimes it helps me explain a point.).

Kreia>10 Sith Assassins(As was seen in a cut-scene)

This means that the Sith grow less than 10% for each person(less than 10%, rather than plain 10% because they also have their natural abilit.)

Sorry, it's still no very clear, but I'm working on it.

Originally posted by Ianus
And considering there ARE high level Sith in the academy whom you seem to be overlooking, they can rightfully put higher level council PT jedi to the test.

The Sith Maraduers(spelling?)? The Exile defeated two of those by himself. The Exile can't be much more powerful than Mace. I know you said that the reason the Exile defeated so many is because of game play, and that there aren't as many really in there(or something like that), which works against you because that lowers the total level of Sith in Academy.

Originally posted by Ianus
And forget Malak and Kreia, who can probably hold off a room themselves.

Mace and Malak are pretty much equal, Mace has a slight advantage. Throw in Plo Koon or Ki-Adi and it tips the battle against Malak. At the same time, Yoda, Cin, Luminara, and Sora would easily defeat Kreia.

Originally posted by Ianus
Canonically, we don't know. The exile could have just as easily fled from them or tricked them somehow. To say he fought each and every one of them and thus they must be weak is.... weak.

It is possible to do though. Whether or not it canonically happened is different. The point is that the Exile has the *capability* to defeat the entire Academy. I know you would talk about Luke defeating infinite storm troopers, but unless you can prove someone actually has defeated infinite storm troopers there, it is irrelevent.

Originally posted by Ianus
Second, Kreia may very well have killed them all using her uber instakill powers, since the screen blacked out and no one moved and they were dead. This implies power beyond a normal jedi in any case

May have. Seeing as most of the time(every time except one, in fact) she doesn't use it, it is unreasonable to believe that was what she used against them.

Originally posted by Ianus
Let's go with the opposite of that- you're assuming they can only feed off of one individual. What evidence do you have that this is the case? I'm curious... Since the ability appears to be utilized by the Sith for the sole intent of KILLING JEDI it would seem that they can do just that using it. Never mentioned just one jedi. In any case, there is very possibly close to two hundred sith in the Trayus Academy. Go count them.

You said that it is unreasonable to the Exile to have killed two hundred of them and that there are far fewer there. Don't ride the fence on this one.

(I'm thinking about counting just because I am curious. )

Originally posted by Ianus
They are decloaked based on if they've been hit, if they've been since via an Awareness roll. I have played the game many times and have been attacked by cloaked ones before.

And Jedi are totally unaware to them?

You are right though, that they can attack ONCE before they decloak, but they always decloak after that.

Now don't say that one hit is enough to kill a Jedi because it isn't. They hit you because of the way the gameplay works.

Originally posted by Ianus
Uh huh. How ridiculous is this? They killed one member at a time, reactivated their cloak, and moved on? This is silly, Glentract.

There were a team of them, at least a skeleton crew worth, because they operated the ship afterwards. I don't see how that is silly.

Originally posted by Ianus
No, it wasn't. I don't see at all how it was. It was very matter of fact.

Saying someone has uber powers doesn't sound fanboyish? WTH?

Originally posted by Ianus
Sounds like an oversimplification to me, really. I could say Kun has uber powers and you wouldn't bat an eye. The point, before you get derailed, is that Malak >>>> PT Jedi.

I actually would. In anycase though, that is different, just as Mace defeating a DLOS is. Kun is far more powerful than Malak, Mace is far more powerful than the average PT Jedi.

Originally posted by Ianus
This is incorrect. They weren't "already near dead". They were standing fine and he overpowered them via the Force and then killed them at his whim. This shows power, period. And you're assuming they even fought at all. For all we know they slipped in during the confusion. Please, stop nitpicking and BUILD AN ARGUMENT FOR YOUR OWN SIDE!

Something had to have been done to them. They were just standing there. They should have rushed him, or tried to kill him or something.

Originally posted by Ianus
WTF does this have to do with a thing?

You said the Jedi then would be more steward from fighting the in Sith War. None of them looked like they had.

Originally posted by Ianus
I don't even see where this is going.

Point is Jedi outnumbered Sith to the degree that most Jedi never fought a lightsaber wielding Sith.

Originally posted by Ianus
Uh, no. Actually I've said in the past that enemies are loaded into levels to provide gameplay challenge. IN the canonical version I highly doubt the exile fought more than a dozen or so total. But this scenario presumes that they exist for the fight.

So there are only a dozen Sith in the Academy? I thought you told me to count them and see there were 200.

Ther were probably like 60 assassins in the academy. Like 10 or 15 Marauders and Lords.

I don't get it how you people can manage to argue about this topic that long. The Exile is able to take out the entire academy on his / her own but 200 Jedi shouldn't be able to do that ? WTF ?

On the Jedi's side:
Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Luminara, Barriss Offee, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Agen Kolar, Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, Sora Bulq and so on...

On the Sith side:
- tons of pathetic Sith assasins and Soldiers that are by any means no threat for Jedi if they just decloak and get cut down (that's what the Exile does with them the entire day) or use blasters - they are useless
- a very small number of Sith Masters and Students but by any means not enough to stop 200 Jedi
- two Sith Lords at the end that will have to face the entire Council with Kreia's instakill ability being their only hope to survive that and we don't even know if she can use that without having the Exile around.

The Sith get pretty much schooled.

And by the way:
There weren't 1,000,000 Droids in the arena. Right. Their weren't 200 Jedi either because it's said that 200 Jedi participated in the Battle of Geonosis but some of them were fighting in the space battle above the planet (including Adi Gilia, The Dark Woman and so on). If you watch the background action in the fight sequences you will not only realize that their were maybe 50 Jedi in the arena you will realize that the pretty much waste tons of droids while being horribly outnumbered.

The entire scene was designed to show how good the Jedi are (that's what Lucas and Gillard said about the scene) - and this is what is shown if you have a closer look at the background action. And some people here maybe should think about statements like: "Oh. The PT Jedi are suckers because 30 of them got killed by thousands of droids." followed by "What ? They destroyed hundrets of droids before they were killed ? I'll ignore that fact !"

By any means...this is like saying a swordfighter sucks because he can only kill 20 out of 200 people attacking him before getting killed himself. If there is any logic behind this - I don't get it.

The Jedi have crap tactics and teamworks. They aren't a military unit. But considering individual skills they are still pretty good. Have a look at the background action on the AotC arena fight and see yourself.

I side with the fact that the Jedi could make it to the two Sith Lords, but I seriously doubt any one of them could defeat them, even if the two battles were seperate and all the Jedi fought together. You have to remember, in the times of the Old Republic, Jedi and Sith were much stronger than they are in the movies. Their power gradually decreased up until Luke became a true Jeid Master after RotJ. The Sith before the Old Republic were much, much stronger than the Exile and others from that time, according to Kreia; it makes sense that the strength of both sides had decreased up until balance was brought to the force by Anakin (if you are confused by this statement, Lucas said Anakin remained the Chosen One on the bonus disc that came with Episode III).

KOTOR Sith, for the reasons that Ianus nailed on the head, with the proverbial hammer. Sorry, but while Yoda, Mace, Sidious, and Dooku are all tough, they can't do it all.

Hmm... Prequel Trilogy get their shit kicked by a bunch of Clone Soldiers, but Temples filled with Lightsaber wielding Dark Jedi and Sith, A bunch of stealthy Assassins, and tons of trained Sith Soldiers can't kill a few Jedi?


WORD?

Indeed. And people need to stop assuming the Exile killed ANY of them, since canonically they could just as easily not be there.

And by a gameplay standpoint, T3 could kill them all. That's besides the point. Look at it this way: for the sake of game play, the Exile can kill every sith in the place. Same reason why in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines a fledgling can kill low generation vampires and resist the Domination of an elder Ventrue; gameplay needs many enemies to make gametime go by slower.

Now, in a canonical view of events, few if any battles were neccessary and very possibly any rendering of events (Such as a KOTOR book, movie, comic, etc.) would not show the Exile killing droves of Sith unless it was through some ability that was absurd (And unmentioned in the game) or by chance.

It's more likely that the Exile encountered very few, if any. So assuming that the Exile can beat them therefore the PT jedi can is stupid. Same thing goes with assuming the Sith assassins suck because Traya (Miss Uber Force Witch) can kill them easily, and same reason why underestimating Bandon based on the fact that revan can kill him in game... just... stupid. It's a gameplay mechanic you're evaluating and you don't even realize it.

Now, this argument PRESUPPOSES that the amount of Sith assassins, marauders, and lords, etc. that existed for game play purposes exist as actual entities. They are DANGEROUS, and probably more than a handful for even good PT jedi. To say otherwise is relying on assuming, on personal feeling, and on gameplay mechanics. The Exile did NOT take on two Sith Marauders at once. There is no canonical instance of this and just because they appear as nameless and virtually identical enemies in game does not make it so.

There. Have I made my bloody point??

Originally posted by Borbarad
I don't get it how you people can manage to argue about this topic that long. The Exile is able to take out the entire academy on his / her own but 200 Jedi shouldn't be able to do that ? WTF ?

On the Jedi's side:
Yoda, Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Luminara, Barriss Offee, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Agen Kolar, Plo Koon, Kit Fisto, Sora Bulq and so on...

On the Sith side:
- tons of pathetic Sith assasins and Soldiers that are by any means no threat for Jedi if they just decloak and get cut down (that's what the Exile does with them the entire day) or use blasters - they are useless
- a very small number of Sith Masters and Students but by any means not enough to stop 200 Jedi
- two Sith Lords at the end that will have to face the entire Council with Kreia's instakill ability being their only hope to survive that and we don't even know if she can use that without having the Exile around.

The Sith get pretty much schooled.

And by the way:
There weren't 1,000,000 Droids in the arena. Right. Their weren't 200 Jedi either because it's said that 200 Jedi participated in the Battle of Geonosis but some of them were fighting in the space battle above the planet (including Adi Gilia, The Dark Woman and so on). If you watch the background action in the fight sequences you will not only realize that their were maybe 50 Jedi in the arena you will realize that the pretty much waste tons of droids while being horribly outnumbered.

The entire scene was designed to show how good the Jedi are (that's what Lucas and Gillard said about the scene) - and this is what is shown if you have a closer look at the background action. And some people here maybe should think about statements like: "Oh. The PT Jedi are suckers because 30 of them got killed by thousands of droids." followed by "What ? They destroyed hundrets of droids before they were killed ? I'll ignore that fact !"

By any means...this is like saying a swordfighter sucks because he can only kill 20 out of 200 people attacking him before getting killed himself. If there is any logic behind this - I don't get it.

The Jedi have crap tactics and teamworks. They aren't a military unit. But considering individual skills they are still pretty good. Have a look at the background action on the AotC arena fight and see yourself.

You forgot the part where the Exile, Malak, Kreia , and Sion completely own the helpless weaklings otherwise called jedi.

Nope. For probably the first time, I agree with Nai on something about PT Jedi.

I really can't judge how good the Sith in the Academy were, unless I go by gameplay experience (pushovers, along with everyone else. I took no damage in the Nihulus fight or th Sion fight, even Traya was easy). I only have gut feelings. The Sith assassins were probably about the power of a moderate to high level PT Knight (like Aayla) and The Marauders and Lords were maybe the power of a decently powered level Master (sub-Kit lvel, possibly). If this is the case, then I think tht The Sith will win, but only because of Traya and Malak.

These are all gut-feelings though, I have no evidense, sorry.

Originally posted by Ianus
And by a gameplay standpoint, T3 could kill them all. That's besides the point. Look at it this way: for the sake of game play, the Exile can kill every sith in the place. Same reason why in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines a fledgling can kill low generation vampires and resist the Domination of an elder Ventrue; gameplay needs many enemies to make gametime go by slower.

Now, in a canonical view of events, few if any battles were neccessary and very possibly any rendering of events (Such as a KOTOR book, movie, comic, etc.) would not show the Exile killing droves of Sith unless it was through some ability that was absurd (And unmentioned in the game) or by chance.

Even considering a "gameplay" standpoint, T3 can't kill all of them unless you're using cheats because of weapon limitations.

In a "canonical" view of events very few of the fights are necessary but some of them are and the Exile won them all. And talking about game mechanics - people like Malak, Bandon, Kreia and so on must look strong to provide some "challenge" for the player - does that mean they aren't strong ?

And in a real canonical view of events we don't even have to discuss here because Lucas opinion is PT Jedi > best Jedi ever, making the average KotoR time Sith (converted KotoR Jedi) weaker then every average PT Jedi not even talking about people like Yoda or Mace.



Talking about gameplay mechanic is also stupid to call Kreia an "uber force witch". She has to kill the masters because otherwise the game would end with the Exile having no connection to the force. She has to kill the Sith Assasins to get into the Academy for the reason that there has to be an endfight somewhere.
And Bandon ? How can somebody "underestimate" Bandon ? All we have seen from him is that he can force push some Sith Warrior around (woohoo...PT padawans can do that) an can die to Revan.
Exaggarating here a little bit: From this point of view, I can argue that TPM Obi-Wan can waste Malak, Bandon and Revan because we have no testament of their power except their actions in an universe dominated by gameplay mechanics and a storywriting that only reason is to make the player feel like a hero.

And if I can do that this thread doesn't make any sense because I can say that Yoda alone could waste the entire population of the Trayus Academy + Malak + Kreia on his own and there is nothing that can be said against this. And if all those people die from the first lightsaber hit or blaster shot that hits them they simply get rushed by 200 PT Jedi.



And again: Using this as an argument you're only assuming that they are dangerous because basically they never did anything that can be seen as "canon" or "EU continuum" material. Appearing as nameless and virtually identical enemies in the game doesn't make them weak but it doesn't make them strong either. So we can leave them out of the picture and make it 200 PT Jedi (including the ones I've mentioned) VS Kreia and Malak.

And again the PT Jedi win. Because if you can say that the enemies are stronger than the game make them look I can say they are even weaker. Both assumptions, both on even level.

Alright, I did with Nai on something, but not that PT Jedi are the best ever.

Meh, Nai, I'm sorry but a lot of that was ridiculous. You're avoiding the point that reliable game sources come in the form of cutscenes or other storyline furthering elements, not in actual gameplay or how it's depicted, etc. This is obvious. Otherwise, you could argue that KOTOR people > all other people because they can take multiple blaster shots and not die until their HP goes all the way down.

Now, you're notoriously pro-PT jedi, so it's not a surprise to me that you've taken this position. Apparently the PT jedi are gods and they will just march through here with all that bullshit superpowers you claim they have over all others.

Either that or you'll twist a GL quote and make it a fact instead of what it really is: a vague statement that is virtually unsupported otherwise.

Originally posted by Borbarad
And in a real canonical view of events we don't even have to discuss here because Lucas opinion is PT Jedi > best Jedi ever, making the average KotoR time Sith (converted KotoR Jedi) weaker then every average PT Jedi not even talking about people like Yoda or Mace.

I seriously doubt that the Sith of that time would be that weak if they could almost take control of the galaxy in both games.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Exaggarating here a little bit: From this point of view, I can argue that TPM Obi-Wan can waste Malak, Bandon and Revan because we have no testament of their power except their actions in an universe dominated by gameplay mechanics and a storywriting that only reason is to make the player feel like a hero.


*in a sarcastic tone* Of course, the storyline of the movies weren't written to make the heroes live and eventually win against the big, bad Empire despite the odds.

The Prequel Jedi were the most pathetic examples of Jedi I have ever seen in the ENTIRE SERIES!

Hmm... Let's see here.... Three Jedi killed by one Sith (A modern Sith), A shitload killed by ANAKIN SKYWALKER and Clone Troopers, a bunch of Padawans and Knights....



Versus


Temples loaded with Sith Lords, apprentices, Marauders, Assassins, Sith Soldiers, Admirals, Lieutenants, Dangerous beasts, Deadly Force Projects (The Dxun Moon temple Project that the Sith were doing) and Murderous Droids.





How can one claim that the Prequel Jedi were the best Jedi out of the entire Series when they F*CKING SUCKED BALLS?


Sure, they were very much capable Jedi and were extremely smart, but damn man! The Sith back in the day had almost endless armies and armies of Sith! The Prequel Jedi were maybe 200-300 Jedi....


AGAINST THE ENTIRE LOT OF KOTOR SITH?

Hmm.... Darth Malak, Darth Bandon, Darth Revan, Darth Sion, Darth Traya (Argued to be Sidious' level), The Exile (Open Option) and Darth Nihilis....


The same Sion that was virtually unkillable by a Lightsaber? The same Traya who was an inch away from wiping out the ENTIRE FORCE? The same Nihilis who could drain planets to fuel his power with the sweep of his hand? The same Malak who could point his finger and have a planet demolished? The same Revan who conquered the Galaxy and stepped on the Jedi and ruined Darth Malak and Darth Bandon's shit? The same Darth Bandon who... Well... Threw a couple of soldiers across a room.

And the Prequel Jedi? They went on some EU missions, killed maybe a few Dark "Witches", killed some street thugs and killed a couple of Clone Soldiers before later being raped by other members of the Clone Squadron. Hmm... Let's see... There is Mace Windu, Yoda and Kenobi Versus all those Sith....


There is no goddamned chance! The Prequel Jedi are f*cked! It doesn't matter if your character was hyped up because it was a Video game... IT IS STILL A CHARACTER BEING USED IN THIS VERSUS BATTLE!


The prequel Jedi lose almost too horribly.... Too horribly....

Originally posted by KingDubya



*in a sarcastic tone* Of course, the storyline of the movies weren't written to make the heroes live and eventually win against the big, bad Empire despite the odds.
zomg! teh person knows teh secret!

Originally posted by Ianus
Meh, Nai, I'm sorry but a lot of that was ridiculous. You're avoiding the point that reliable game sources come in the form of cutscenes or other storyline furthering elements, not in actual gameplay or how it's depicted, etc. This is obvious. Otherwise, you could argue that KOTOR people > all other people because they can take multiple blaster shots and not die until their HP goes all the way down.

And you're missing the point that there aren't "reliable game sources" because the games are games. Everything seen is based on the players decissions and even cutscenes can be interpreted differently:

Example 1:
Did Kreia kill the masters on Dantooine ? Even if you say the Light Side ending is canon the Exile could have done that all by himself.

Example 2:
Kreia killing that Sith assasins / soldiers. Does that make Kreia uber powerful or are they simply weak ?



Apparently the Jedi will walk into an Academy filled with people that - as far as we know - have never battled other force users in direct confrontation, had less lightsaber and force training (if any - all those guys armed with blasters didn't look like great force users) and are outnumbered. Still they lose ?



That statement is part of the AotC Webdocumentaries and Lucas simply states that this is the "Golden age of the Jedi".

@Sorgo:
The topic was: "All Jedi involved in the battle of Geonosis VS the Sith that are in the Trayus Academy on Malachor V in KotoR 2 +Malak -Sion" (as far as I got it) and not "200 Jedi vs the entirety of the KotoR time Sith".

@Sorgo:
The topic was: "All Jedi involved in the battle of Geonosis VS the Sith that are in the Trayus Academy on Malachor V in KotoR 2 +Malak -Sion" (as far as I got it) and not "200 Jedi vs the entirety of the KotoR time Sith".



^


Ah.... That explains alot....


Okay so Traya and Sion plus around at least eighty to a hundred Sith Marauders, Assassins and Sith Lords versus Two hundred Jedi, Windu, Padawan Anakin, Knight Kenobi and Padme.

Er...