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This is a Death Match.

Fight takes place on a featureless artifical planetoid comprised of undefined solid matter of the most extreme density (basically, completely indestructable) with one ocean the size of the Atlantic.

The planetoid has an Earth like atmosphere so the combatants can breath.

No buildings, vehicles, inhabitants, etc.

Just the three combatants.

Fight begins in the western hemisphere with both opponents in each others line of site 500 yards apart.

Cloak & Dagger will not fatigue for the duration of the fight.

Who wins?

Discuss.

Post their bios. Maybe that will kick off some interest.

i'm just trying to understand how hulk will escape from the dark dimension of cloak. hulk's not evil, so i'm not sure how daggers light will affect him (it would hurt, but it wouldn't be as disabelling to him, i don't think as to some others). cloak is also intangible much of the time.

i'm almost sure people have escaped from cloak, but it would take some digging to find out how. i don't think brute strength is the answer though.

unless someone explains to me how hulk could escape from cloak's darkness, i don't know how he could win.

Clock-Cloak possesses various superhuman powers derived from the unknown drug with which he was injected. It is net known why Marshall's drug endowed Johnson and Tandy Bowen with unusual powers rather than killing them as it did others. There is apparently some unknown factor in the bodies of Johnson and Bowen that is responsible for the effects that Marshall's drug had on them.

Cloak possesses the superhuman ability to mentally create an aperture into a dimension composed of an insubstantial, featureless, intense black material of unknown nature, with no visual cues Ss to its surface, even when it is viewed against the background of the Earth dimension. This unknown black material may be related to the black substances and energies manipulated by other superhuman beings. With the aperture opened, he can either project the gas-like substance of this dimension into Earth's atmosphere in controlled amounts, or he can dispatch his toes into the dimension of darkness itself. (This "dark dimension" is not to be confused with the Dark Dimension ruled by Clea.) Though the aperture could theoretically be formed anywhere within Cloak's field of vision, he generally uses his cloak to help him define the area of the aperture. Hence, the darkness seems to issue forth from under his cloak. The largest area Cloak has yet to shroud in darkness is a volume of approximately 4,000 square feet (an entire warehouse). There is no known limit to the number of people whom Cloak may dispatch into the dimension of darkness at the same time: once he caused an entire subway train full of passengers to travel in and out of the dimension

Dagger- Dagger possesses the normal human strength of a young woman of her age, height, and build who engages in intensive regular exercise. (However, it should be noted that Dagger, who was once a ballet student, exercises to develop and maintain her agility, not her ability to lift weights.)

Known Superhuman Powers: Dagger possesses the superhuman ability to generate an unknown form of luminescence. It is not known why Simon Marshall's drug endowed Bowen and Tyrone Johnson with unusual powers rather than killing them as it did others. There is apparently some unknown biochemical factor in the bodies of Johnson and Bowen that is responsible for the effects that Marshal's drug had on them.

The "light" that Dagger generates is a manifestation of the life force that exists within all living beings. Hence, Dagger's light is actually a form of psionic energy, rather than being ordinary light, such as is created by the sun or by an electrical lamp. Dagger generates far more of this psionic "light" within herself than ordinary living beings do, and therefore she can employ this extra "light" for various uses without depriving herself of the life energy she needs to exist.

Dagger's "light" responds to her mental commands, both conscious and subconscious. She can, for example, will herself to project her daggers of "light," but she might also release the daggers instinctively on seeing someone in danger without consciously intending to do so. Dagger's control of her "light" is limited by her own degree of understanding of her power and her degree of experience in using it.

Dagger can project her "light" around herself as a glow surrounding her body. She can also project her "light" from her fingertips, usually in the form of six-inch long wedge-shaped projectiles of pure "light" which she calls her "daggers of light" or her "light-knives."

When these projectiles strike a human target, they cause a biophysical shock reaction to the victim's nervous system by depriving him of part of his own life energy, or "light." If the victim is in poor physical condition to begin with, or is struck with more than one of these "light-knives." he or she may die. Dagger can also, by an act of will, generate "light-knives" with which she can kill even a victim in good health by depriving him or her of all of his or her life energy. Otherwise she can use the "daggers of light" to remove only part of the victim's life energy, leaving him or her temporarily paralyzed, usually for about five minutes, depending on the victim's metabolism. While thus immobilized, the victim feels frozen and ill, and fears he or she is going to die.

The paralysis has an additional effect on the victim's mind. While immobilized, the victim will have a vision of what he would be like if he or she fulfilled his potential for "good" (Dagger herself associates what she defines as moral "goodness" with the life energy "light." However, if the victim is an "evildoer" who is set in his or her "evil" ways, he or she will return to his previous ways upon recovering from his paralysis. A victim who is not so determined to be "evil" might be inspired by his or her vision to adopt a more "moral" way of life.

The life energy that Dagger's "light-knives" remove from her victims flows into Dagger herself, increasing her own supply of "light." At times her stores of "light" grow so large that they threaten to overwhelm the young woman. She will then use some of this "excess light" to feed Cloak's "hunger" for projecting life energy into the dimension of darkness to which he is linked. She will "feed" Cloak "light" whenever she feels he needs it and he will allow her to do so

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Post their bios. Maybe that will kick off some interest.

Good idea:

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/c/cloak.htm (Cloak)
http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/d/dagger.htm (Dagger)

Sadly, info on them is limited, as they aren't top tier characters in Marvel anymore. I'm surprised Wikipedia didn't have more info on them.

I'll look for more links.

This is a battle you'll really have to think about (which was my point).

damn, ill. you're gonna make me pull out my c&d material, aren't you . . . (i used to love them. got their first appearance in peter parker, the ltd series' and a bunch of other things. gonna be a pain to find it though . . .)

There really isnt any reason daggers attacks shouldnt hurt hulk as much as they hurt a normal thug. I mean they dispell the life force or something like that. THey could possibly prove fatal to hulk.

Cloak and Dagger win. Dagger might get taken out during the battle but i dont see hulk beating Cloak.

the daggers have been resisted before. hulk is strong enough to do that. his strength doesn't help him though once cloak engulfs him. i'll have to check back to see how others have escaped him in the past.

Hulk will lose .

The dark dimension is very difficult to escape (Spidey only escaped because of his SS) and i doubt his brute strength will allow him to break free.

Originally posted by leonidas
damn, ill. you're gonna make me pull out my c&d material, aren't you . . . (i used to love them. got their first appearance in peter parker, the ltd series' and a bunch of other things. gonna be a pain to find it though . . .)

Yeah Leo. I picked this battle because it's kind of a puzzle.

On the one hand you have Hulk, whose physical abilities are legendary. And under normal circumstances would k.o. anyone lacking superspeed or super strength.

On the other hand, you have Cloak & Dagger, a duo of teenagers that deal in souls (light), but physically aren't very imposing at all, though they are deceptively formidable.

Not to mention that the Darkness Dimension also saps the light from people trapped in it. Hence Cloak's "Hunger". He basically eats souls (light), but mainly that of criminals or people that have caused harm to the innocent, though he's not limited to just criminals. Dagger had to shield Spiderman from Cloak when Cloak snapped and starting eating the "light" of random people like jaywalkers and shoplifters and Spiderman tried to stop him.

The flipside of this is that when Cloak consumes sufficient "light", he becomes tangible. Under normal circumstances he's basically a living dimensional apeture resembling a shadowy man in a 'cloak' and is intangible.

i really cant see hulk beating cloak i mean when i use to play maximum carnage on sega genesis cloak helped alot so i say cloak wins but i think hulk can just step on dagger

hmm, been thinking about this fight a bit more and did some checking. this was interesting. it occurred in Peter parker spiderman 81:

after jumping into cloak, spidey is clearly disoriented:

but, by some unexplained method . . .

i don't think it was his spidey sense that led him out -- he appeared very lost, then . . .

out he came!

can't really explain HOW he did it. in the next issue, he was again engulfed and was wandering through the darkness unharmed but he seemed unable to find his way out this time. then daggers lights struck cloak and led spidey out. again, he didn't seem overly affected by the trip inside cloak. later, he was also able to stun cloak by jumping DOWN on him. shriek was also able to put cloak down. she nearly killed dagger.

i think hulk could win this fight if he gets a thunderclap in. i see no reason why the shockwave wouldn't stun cloak. before he gathers himself, hulk could grab his cloak and . . .

could he rip it? would that unleash all the darkness? don't know. the character wasn't explored all that well and to my knowledge never really battled this type of foe. it's hard to know just what would happen. savage hulk would likely be able to escape. i know once that inside the cloak the world was some dark parody of new york. perhaps hulk would just start destroying things and be forced out by the darkness? i don't think the 'soul coldness' would do much to hulk if it didn't do much to spidey. daggers light could certainly affect him, but again, i don't think they would be enough to put him down for long. they don't 'kill' to my knowledge -- at least not if someone is not evil. even then, i don't know . . .

hmm, just found a last bit of evidence. i knew evil had something to do with the effectiveness of dagger's power . . .

it's a bit hard to make out, but doom is shocked when dagger's light daggers make it through his shield. however, even after they make it through they have little effect.

the txt is hard to make out but it says 'but daggers light-knives have only little effect on doom prescisely because he has never regarded his actions as evil . . .

when dagger failed to bring him down, cloak tried . . .

here doom has been enveloped. he just starts blasting to no effect. then he comes upon a vision of his mother.

here it appears the vision is fooling him. he fears he has failed his mother and seems about to despair. it is when the vistim is in despair that the beast inside cloak can feed the most. however before it could do so, doom sensed it and with his will, rejects it and blasts it.

when he does, he actually harms the beast/darkness inside cloak -- badly. and he escapes.

so, again, hulk is not evil. i don't see him (at least savage) despairing, and i don't see the darkness being able to feed on hulk.

once they tried their respective attacks, they would likely see they couldn't defeat hulk and leave, but before they do, hulk could shockwave and end it.

interesting fight, but in the end, i don't think they have the guns to win this kind of fight because hulk's not evil and has no real mind to give into despair with. maybe prof hulk? still, banner has faced these types of foes MANY times. even prof hulk's will would likely be too strong for cloak.

'pologies for the multiple posts, but you said you wanted to make me think . . .

whew. maybe an easier match up next time ill . . .?

Hmm, interesting.

So the Guilt Hulk and Devil Hulk psyches in Banner's mind aren't evil? They're all one and the same person, after all.

Heh... I don't know if this is relevant I just found it amusing...

LOL ... if only i could make out the words ?

Originally posted by grey fox
LOL ... if only i could make out the words ? Here.

Also, Spiderman landing on Cloak, though I hate to use this cop out argument, is PIS. Cloak isn't supposed to be physically tangible until he consumes sufficient amounts of light (soul). Unless Dagger somehow fed him light previous to Spiderman jumping on him, the writer simply forgot this aspect of the character.

I only have PC access at work, so when I get home I'll find the comic I have where Cloak succumbs to the hunger and begins eating the souls of people committing petty crimes like jaywalking and shoplifting. I believe DareDevil, Spiderman, and Dr. Strange are all in the same story. It's not the Tyrannus and the Serpant People storyline though.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Here.

Which comic is that?

Damn, did they retcon him?

<<I only have PC access at work, so when I get home I'll find the comic I have where Cloak succumbs to the hunger and begins eating the souls of people committing petty crimes like jaywalking and shoplifting. I believe DareDevil, Spiderman, and Dr. Strange are all in the same story. It's not the Tyrannus and the Serpant People storyline though.>>

yah, that's the issue where they're in the 'evil new york', i think, inside cloak. cloak sort of goes nuts in that arc. isn't that the one that ends with c&d becoming one being?

and i think we all have the potential for 'evil' in us, or have done 'wrong' things. cloak feeds on that but if a person is strong willed enough or perhaps 'good' enough (at least in their own mind?) it seems they can fight cloak's influence -- or rather the beast INSIDE cloak.

i started off thinking hulk couldn't win, but based on what i've seen/recalled, i've come around to the other side.

Originally posted by leonidas
<<I only have PC access at work, so when I get home I'll find the comic I have where Cloak succumbs to the hunger and begins eating the souls of people committing petty crimes like jaywalking and shoplifting. I believe DareDevil, Spiderman, and Dr. Strange are all in the same story. It's not the Tyrannus and the Serpant People storyline though.>>

yah, that's the issue where they're in the 'evil new york', i think, inside cloak. cloak sort of goes nuts in that arc. isn't that the one that ends with c&d becoming one being?

and i think we all have the potential for 'evil' in us, or have done 'wrong' things. cloak feeds on that but if a person is strong willed enough or perhaps 'good' enough (at least in their own mind?) it seems they can fight cloak's influence -- or rather the beast INSIDE cloak.

i started off thinking hulk couldn't win, but based on what i've seen/recalled, i've come around to the other side.

Yeah, I think that's when Dagger fills Cloak with her light and takes on his darkness because it's beginning to overwhelm him. He started feeding on random people for things like littering and jaywalking. I really need to get a new PC at home with a scanner.

Cloak and Dagger was a really good story. It's a shame they aren't a top billied title anymore at Marvel.

I'm still not conviced it's a cut and dry victory for Hulk, however. In some comics bullets and trash cans pass through Cloak, and in another, some little girl yanks his cloak off, and really, the cloak is not the source of his powers, it's just what he uses to control it.

I'm no using the PIS argument though. I suppose if a kid could pull Cloak's power off his body Hulk certainly could.

Cloak can teleport himself, others, and objects, however.

Can't he teleport Hulk to the sun or something?

Cloak wouldn't really need to.

He could just engulf Hulk into hisself and let the Darkness consume him. He's engulfed whole buildings before.

Banner's mind is splintered as is. Leaving him in the darkness dimension that feeds off the darkness of in his soul would drive him nuts.

On top of that, Dagger's light daggers may still harm him.

Most Hulk incarnations aren't wholely evil, but a couple are, and they are VERY, VERY evil at that, and ever present, even if not always in control of the body.

Cloak & Dagger's abilities aren't quite the "Penance Stare", but they are very similar.

you're scenario is possible. it's not of course IF cloak can gather him in, but what happens inside. i just tend to think banner's psyche has faced this sort of adversity many times in the past and in the end, rather than succumbing, he would likely triumph over it. i DO think a thunder clap would be effective though once he'd out of or before he gets INTO cloak.

i agree too the daggers would affect him -- just not enough. banner's soul/psyche has been through so much -- it's hard to imagine something really breaking it or overcoming it altogether. it's been tried before, by greater powers than c&d.

i think a NEW c&d series is scheduled to come out next year. least, that's the message i read somewhere . . .

Yeah. There's supposed to be a Cloak & Dagger movie as well. I was surprised to see that.

I'm looking forward to Tom Cruise as Ironman though, if they still pull that off.