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Welcome to the 'Trials: Dooku vs Sidious'. The Trials are a series based set of competition and battles, between two various combatants. A very popular insurgence of Sidious vs Dooku arguments has spawned up (I'm usually arguing them, lol), so I've decided to make a set of Trials based on three battles these two combatants will face in.

#1. Force Battle (Force-powers ONLY)
#2. Saber Battle (Sabers ONLY)
#3. Regular Battle (Force AND Sabers ONLY)

Beginning with the first round, we begin with the Force Battle. The battle will take place in the Senate Chamber, where the pods. Some may truly complain about the location, but if Dooku is as powerful as he gets credit for, he has an extremely good chance. We shall soon see.

Dooku vs Sidious - Force Powers Only - The Senate Chamber.

1. Sidious
2. Dooku
3. ????

Originally posted by ESB- 1138
1. Sidious
2. Dooku
3. ????

As you can see, there is already a Thread like this in the EU section. Please do take all Force/Lightsaber battles there, please.

And here is the link!

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=376240&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

No. It's a different thread, Sorgo. This is a match with specific rules and regulations and is the series of three successive matches.

Originally posted by Escape81
No. It's a different thread, Sorgo. This is a match with specific rules and regulations and is the series of three successive matches. Sorry, we have a Dooku VS Sidious thread for that. Just because it has "Trials" in front of it doesn't make it any different.

If you wanna make any specific rules, go to the SIDS VS DOOK thread and do it, because you know this will just create more heat, and pardon me for being blunt, but I am tired of arguing the same shit back and fourth.

Force battle in the Senate chamber will end in a draw.
None of them would be able to crush the other with throwing pods around and they both are able to deflect force lightning.

in anyof these round sideous would ass rape Dooku

Originally posted by b-dan
in anyof these round sideous would ass rape Dooku


I like how you support your opinion.

Originally posted by b-dan
in anyof these round sideous would ass rape Dooku

I notice you put "ass rape" and "Sidious" in most of the posts I've seen by you. Some repressed father fetish you have, hm?

Yeah... Erm... I think Sidious is more powerful than Dooku... But neither of them would assrape the other. Sorgo would say the same thing, and he is the Dooku fanboy.

Force? Sidious for sure. He was able to best Yoda in that category and get him with lightning and even when Yoda managed to catch the lightning there's no denying he had a harder time catching it than he did catching Dooku's.

Uh, it's pretty well established that Yoda > Sidious in lightsaber combat and force powers. You need to pay attention to what other people post in the future, since you're obviously out of the loop.

Originally posted by Ianus
Uh, it's pretty well established that Yoda > Sidious in lightsaber combat and force powers. You need to pay attention to what other people post in the future, since you're obviously out of the loop.

r u *************ing kidng. sidos > yoda n evryting. n00b

Originally posted by Ianus
Uh, it's pretty well established that Yoda > Sidious in lightsaber combat and force powers. You need to pay attention to what other people post in the future, since you're obviously out of the loop.

I agree. Though not by staggering degrees. I'm the little green guy's number one fan, but he still didn't - nor would he ever - own the guy who is in desparate need of a plastic surgeon.

Well, it wasn't enough to ensure Yoda a clear, decisive win (Which the OT denied him regardless) but he did beat Sidious in saber combat and in Force combat, but still lost the fight.

The Little Green Guy and Man Who Needs Surgeon are the paragons of the Force, you see. I assume that, with Mace defeating Sidious, they really couldn't go off and have Sidious own Yoda. But at the same time, I don't see how Little Green Guy is superior to Man Who Needs Surgeon in lightsaber combat. The original script says he was disarmed, but this was not shown - nor mentioned - in the movie, nor by Lucas in the audio commentary.

And before that, Little Green Guy showed no signs of besting Man Who Needs Surgeon in saber combat, which fuels my thought in that they were damn close in lightsaber ability. And as for the Force, I don't know. Little Green Guy is capable of defending himself from Man Who Needs Surgeon, but can we say he can do it all the time ? He got nailed once, and which proves that Little Green Guy's defense isn't infallible, if you understand.

Dramatic neccessity designed Sidious and Yoda to be equals - and opposites of one another. But, at the same time, the subtle things - such as Sidious's fear of Yoda - is a good indication that the Little Green Guy is more powerful. But only by a thin margin.

Originally posted by Darth Avis
r u *************ing kidng. sidos > yoda n evryting. n00b
When will you puberty? I need to know so as to castrate you to insure that your spawn never plop out of whoever you've knocked up and pollute this earth.

Oh joy.

Look, Yoda did it. He's capable of it. He certainly is the only other person in the series save for Dooku who could have considered fighting Sidious in that predicament. Mace, I'm no longer sure of.

In any case, Sidious was disarmed by someone who's arms are smaller than Shaq's feet. That's weak. That would be like being the Leprechaun from the movie disarming Gandalf. Weak. Even if he is on crack.

Second point... The initial lightning blast is clearly PIS. There is no good reason why Yoda -wouldn't- have done something to defend himself but this doesn't preclude that he -couldn't- defend himself. It would be like saying Anakin kicked Obi-Wan once therefore he could beat Obi in unarmed combat. (This wasn't the case; while Anakin kicked Obi from time to time during the duel, when it was no sabers Obi literally kicked Anakin's ass.) When Yoda was struck with lighting the last time (And this is after the duel, after the intial blast and everything) he was STILL able to overcome the energy from a disadvantage (Read: on the edge, initially bent over backwards) and send it back at Sidious.

Yoda > Sidious in Force powers. It's evident. No use arguing semantics on this one.

Originally posted by Ianus
Oh joy.

Look, Yoda did it. He's capable of it. He certainly is the only other person in the series save for Dooku who could have considered fighting Sidious in that predicament. Mace, I'm no longer sure of.

In any case, Sidious was disarmed by someone who's arms are smaller than Shaq's feet. That's weak. That would be like being the Leprechaun from the movie disarming Gandalf. Weak. Even if he is on crack.

Second point... The initial lightning blast is clearly PIS. There is no good reason why Yoda -wouldn't- have done something to defend himself but this doesn't preclude that he -couldn't- defend himself. It would be like saying Anakin kicked Obi-Wan once therefore he could beat Obi in unarmed combat. (This wasn't the case; while Anakin kicked Obi from time to time during the duel, when it was no sabers Obi literally kicked Anakin's ass.) When Yoda was struck with lighting the last time (And this is after the duel, after the intial blast and everything) he was STILL able to overcome the energy from a disadvantage (Read: on the edge, initially bent over backwards) and send it back at Sidious.

Yoda > Sidious in Force powers. It's evident. No use arguing semantics on this one.

No need to get defensive Janus. You forget. I'm one of the few who do not believe in a script that does not reflect the events of the movie. Forgive me, but I don't believe that Yoda disarmed him unless you give me some evidence. I hate to challenge your word, but honestly man. I could look up the Attack of the Clones script with practically says Dooku is crap compared to Yoda. It isn't the case.

That is a good point, and I agree that scripts can be ridiculous. I was rather think there was extended footage that I haven't seen. (I haven't gotten the DVD yet.)

In any case, what else explains Sidious being disarmed? Unlike the AOTC script saying Dooku is crap (Which is clearly an exaggeration on the part of the script) Sidious went from having a lightsaber to... not having one.

Originally posted by Ianus
That is a good point, and I agree that scripts can be ridiculous. I was rather think there was extended footage that I haven't seen. (I haven't gotten the DVD yet.)

In any case, what else explains Sidious being disarmed? Unlike the AOTC script saying Dooku is crap (Which is clearly an exaggeration on the part of the script) Sidious went from having a lightsaber to... not having one.

Ah. But he -could- have simply ended the fighting, hung his saber on his belt or wherever the hell he keeps it, and decided range attacks would be better.

Yeah, and it doesn't help that we don't know how Yoda fell from that pod.

In any case I wish there was one credible, unexaggerated source for all this, because arguing SW makes my head hurt.

Ianus, we must consult the all-knowing deity of Star Wars. No, not your false god, Artoo, but the true lord of knowledge. Darth Clumsy the Klutz.

What about Darth Hitler, the EEEEEVILEST name in the galaxy?

He got banned.

Damn. Hitlerities everywhere, sing a dirge for your fallen brother.

He was a sock of some noob moron from Brazil who always made threads like "1.000.000 battel droids versus Qui-Gon as a Jude".

I am not kidding on that one.

Originally posted by Escape81
Ianus, we must consult the all-knowing deity of Star Wars. No, not your false god, Artoo, but the true lord of knowledge. Darth Clumsy the Klutz.

Artoo is not a false god. You have proven yourself as a false entity by saying this.

*zap!*

Where'd he go?

Qui-Gon as a Jude

BWAHAAHAHA!

*Blinks* Escape who?

YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber


YODA uses the Force to throw DARTH SIDIOUS back, knocking him clear over his desk and onto the floor in a heap.


DARTH SIDIOUS flies through the air, cape flapping, heading toward the exit.


ROTS Script: Lines are NOT in Order

Sure, you can say Yoda defeated Dooku by the AOTC Script, but here's the question:


Can you say that about Sidious as well?

Originally posted by Sorgo
YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber


YODA uses the Force to throw DARTH SIDIOUS back, knocking him clear over his desk and onto the floor in a heap.


DARTH SIDIOUS flies through the air, cape flapping, heading toward the exit.


ROTS Script: Lines are NOT in Order

Sure, you can say Yoda defeated Dooku by the AOTC Script, but here's the question:


Can you say that about Sidious as well?

Sorgo, lol, don't bring the argument here. Just listen to Faunus's immensely coordinated advice. And, about the podium, we never saw that happen. Again. The scripts are only good if they reflect the movie.

So which is more canon? The scripts, written by Lucas, and his direct vision, or the movies?

Well, I'd say the movies. Because I'm looking at the script now, at IMSDB.com, and I'm seeing a lot of remarks as well that could be argued that Sidious is Yoda's equal.

The movies first, since they are set in stone if you will. Gl with a grain of salt. He's notoriously ambigious and for a reason. Scripts would be right after that.

Originally posted by Escape81
Sorgo, lol, don't bring the argument here. Just listen to Faunus's immensely coordinated advice. And, about the podium, we never saw that happen. Again. The scripts are only good if they reflect the movie.


Right... He only flew back forward after he had a grim expression on his face.


Hmm...

Sorgo, lol, just drop it. You won't like what happens when I bring the script into play on the Anakin vs Dooku topic. You might just regret bringing it up at all. I suggest you read the thread on that duel.

Oh, it's on now...

Not really. I was just messing, anyway. But that script is full of some tweaks. Read where Anakin fights Dooku.

Link?

Originally posted by Escape81
Sorgo, lol, just drop it. You won't like what happens when I bring the script into play on the Anakin vs Dooku topic. You might just regret bringing it up at all. I suggest you read the thread on that duel.


And you would change the subject because...


Nah, I think I will listen to you and drop it.

Originally posted by Sorgo
And you would change the subject because...


Nah, I think I will listen to you and drop it.




A wise decision, considering how I was only playing with you. Perhaps this argument has truly upset you, Sorgo. I'm sorry to hear that.

But to answer your question.

a) I proved that the script does not always follow the movie's depictions and that according to the script, Dooku fought against Anakin with all that he had, but was simply outmaneuvered and overpowered. And if the script is correct in the Yoda vs Sidious duel, it is the same for the Anakin vs Dooku duel, meaning Dooku got killed by Anakin without 'throwing' the fight. And conveniantly, Lucas mentions nothing of this on the commentary... Hmmm...

b) I was just messing with you, if you can look back on the previous page.

Originally posted by Escape81
But to answer your question.

a) I proved that the script does not always follow the movie's depictions and that according to the script, Dooku fought against Anakin with all that he had, but was simply outmaneuvered and overpowered. And if the script is correct in the Yoda vs Sidious duel, it is the same for the Anakin vs Dooku duel, meaning Dooku got killed by Anakin without 'throwing' the fight. And conveniantly, Lucas mentions nothing of this on the commentary... Hmmm...

b) I was just messing with you, if you can look back on the previous page.

It says nowhere that Dooku fought with all he had. Dooku was smiling during their Duel and had several open chances to f*cking pwn Anakin.

Originally posted by Escape81
Ianus, we must consult the all-knowing deity of Star Wars.

Ok. What do you want to know, son ?

The scripts can be taken as sources as long as they don't contradict the movie. Now: Have we seen Sidious with a lightsaber in the last part of the fight ? No. So is it possible that Yoda disarmed Sidious ? Yes.
Actually I have no other reason how Sidious could have managed to get away from Yoda. If he simply did it out of the lightsaber fighting situation, Yoda would have immediatly followed him. In the movie you can see Yoda jumping over from the chancellors pod while Sidious is already on the "higher ground". How did he get there ? Why didn't Yoda follow immediatly ? Where is Sidious' lightsaber ?
The scripts provides an answer for all 3 questions. So why not use it ?

And for the AotC script: It makes Dooku look like crap ?
"DOOKU is the complete swordsman - elegant, graceful, classical - a master of the old style."

The first draft of the AotC script makes Dooku look like crap compared to Yoda:

"Count Dooku's lightsaber is sent cartwheeling from his hand. He staggers back, gasping and spent, against the control panel. YODA jumps onto DOOKU'S shoulders, and is about to drive the lightsaber into the top of the Count's head."

Pff...ok...but the "final" script actually only said that Yoda forced Dooku to retreat because Yoda was the superior sword fighter. Again I don't see where this is making Dooku look like crap. He did retreat or not ?

.. Yoda was gonna do that originally? Is GL off his friggin' rocker?

Given the recent evidence, no, though he COULD have been sick back then.

Meh. GL did the series wrong to give Yoda a lightsaber and make him do things like lead the Clone Troopers and impale that trooper outside of the temple. It was very out of character for the benevolent little imp we all grew up with.

Hmm. I just re-watched ROTS. Near the end, on Mustafar, Anakin says that he is more powerful than the Chancellor and can overthrow him. Yet during the battle with Yoda, Sidious says that Anakin would grow to become more powerful than him or Yoda.

So was Anakin's statement simply arrogance, or the truth ?

Anakin is always arrogant. He'll say he's more powerful than God or even Artoo.

Oh. Because he sure as hell didn't 'seem' more powerful. . .

No, he didn't. Anakin has the potential, but he doesn't have things people often overlook when considering force mastery: wisdom, concentration, focus, etc. He's too hotheaded to really make the most of his potential at this point.

Originally posted by Sorgo
You know where it says Anakin regains his composture? That's the point where Dooku has an OPEN FOUR SECOND CHANCE to bring a down swing on Anakin, but Dooku holds and waits for Anakin instead of killing him.

There's your script, Escape.

I really don't want to bring this up again, but I had to respond.

I have the ROTS DVD, and watched that duel for the fourth time in two days just now. About a half-hour ago, to be exact. I know the sequence of which you speak, but it happens nothing like you make it seem.

After Dooku's line, Anakin pushes him back, and Dooku raises his lightsaber in anticipation of Anakin's attack. Might I remind you that Dooku is several feet away at this point. No where near enough to bring a down swing on Anakin. The Sith Lord couldn't have killed him at that point.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
I really don't want to bring this up again, but I had to respond.

I have the ROTS DVD, and watched that duel for the fourth time in two days just now. About a half-hour ago, to be exact. I know the sequence of which you speak, but it happens nothing like you make it seem.

After Dooku's line, Anakin pushes him back, and Dooku raises his lightsaber in anticipation of Anakin's attack. Might I remind you that Dooku is several feet away at this point. No where near enough to bring a down swing on Anakin. The Sith Lord couldn't have killed him at that point.

Exactly. Which is why neither the script - nor Lucas, to my knowledge - hint that Dooku was bested unfairly. The commentary states that Dooku had no idea of Sidious's plot to eliminate him; and that he just thought he was supposed to fight Anakin. It doesn't say throw the fight. It said fight. Lucas implies that Dooku was there to 'kill' Anakin, but was simply outmaneuvered in the end.

The script does not hint at Dooku's death being brought about by luck or him throwing the fight. At the same time, it begs the question that how did Dooku dispose of Obi-Wan so quickly and then get defeated by Anakin?

According to Nick Gillard, inventor of the Lightsaber Forms, Anakin had raised a level in lightsaber ability, becoming a 9, and passing Obi-Wan. Effectively, Gillard places Anakin on the same level as the other 9s. Dooku, Mace, Sidious, and Yoda. So this means that Anakin is on par with Dooku, and is very much capable of defeating him.

Ironically, Obi-Wan was neatly disposed of, but managed to defeat Anakin. Yet can we credit this to superior skills than Anakin? Obi-Wan is a master of the most defensive lightsaber form in existence, and it fits his personality very well. Anakin becomes reckless when he loses his temper. He went on the offensive against Dooku and was beaten because he is not exceptionally skilled at offensive tactics, but is perhaps the most capable defensive Jedi we've seen. Anakin is a ruthless duelist, but couldn't break through Obi-Wan's defenses, just like Yoda didn't with Sidious.

Lucas says in the commentary that Anakin was bested because Obi-Wan knew him. How he fights, why he fights, and his methods. Knowledge is powers, and it enabled Obi-Wan to defeat Anakin, only because Anakin's arrogance and stupidity.

So, essentially, this bit of inconsistency needs to be considered.

God those guys are stupid. How can anakin even come close to mace, yoda, or dooku in lightsaber combat? also if knowledge is power then anakin had power. anakin also knew obi wans fighting style inside and out. That gave obi wan no advantage. That means obi was just better then anakin. once again god those guys are stupid.

Now with the fight. the first two are obvious:
sidious
dooku
the normal fight i think goes with sids. now yoda could have beaten dooku pretty badly in aotc. Lets assume that yoda became a tad bit stronger in ROTS. yoda was stronger then sidious yes but they were near equal (yoda was better in both categories but not by a dooku-obi amount. more like a cestus deception Kit-obi amount). That means that yoda, who had improved a bit, gave sids the kind of fight he gave dooku at the least.

Now that is confusing so if you dont get what i mean, just ask.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
I really don't want to bring this up again, but I had to respond.

I have the ROTS DVD, and watched that duel for the fourth time in two days just now. About a half-hour ago, to be exact. I know the sequence of which you speak, but it happens nothing like you make it seem.

After Dooku's line, Anakin pushes him back, and Dooku raises his lightsaber in anticipation of Anakin's attack. Might I remind you that Dooku is several feet away at this point. No where near enough to bring a down swing on Anakin. The Sith Lord couldn't have killed him at that point.

Extremely incorrect.

Anakin does not push him back. Dooku pushes HIMSELF back off of Anakin and twirls his Lightsaber around and holds it up, which would have bought him a perfect chance to seer down on Anakin, seeing as Anakin's saber was just pushed down and was still down for a few seconds when Dooku was holding his Lightsaber high.

Originally posted by Escape81
Exactly. Which is why neither the script - nor Lucas, to my knowledge - hint that Dooku was bested unfairly. The commentary states that Dooku had no idea of Sidious's plot to eliminate him; and that he just thought he was supposed to fight Anakin. It doesn't say throw the fight. It said fight. Lucas implies that Dooku was there to 'kill' Anakin, but was simply outmaneuvered in the end.

The script does not hint at Dooku's death being brought about by luck or him throwing the fight. At the same time, it begs the question that how did Dooku dispose of Obi-Wan so quickly and then get defeated by Anakin?

According to Nick Gillard, inventor of the Lightsaber Forms, Anakin had raised a level in lightsaber ability, becoming a 9, and passing Obi-Wan. Effectively, Gillard places Anakin on the same level as the other 9s. Dooku, Mace, Sidious, and Yoda. So this means that Anakin is on par with Dooku, and is very much capable of defeating him.

Ironically, Obi-Wan was neatly disposed of, but managed to defeat Anakin. Yet can we credit this to superior skills than Anakin? Obi-Wan is a master of the most defensive lightsaber form in existence, and it fits his personality very well. Anakin becomes reckless when he loses his temper. He went on the offensive against Dooku and was beaten because he is not exceptionally skilled at offensive tactics, but is perhaps the most capable defensive Jedi we've seen. Anakin is a ruthless duelist, but couldn't break through Obi-Wan's defenses, just like Yoda didn't with Sidious.

Lucas says in the commentary that Anakin was bested because Obi-Wan knew him. How he fights, why he fights, and his methods. Knowledge is powers, and it enabled Obi-Wan to defeat Anakin, only because Anakin's arrogance and stupidity.

So, essentially, this bit of inconsistency needs to be considered.


That's what I don't understand. Dooku used a different Form while fighting Anakin, he continually smiled during their fight and was trying to lure Anakin to the Dark side. You can't tell me he just wanted to kill Anakin. It's bullshit! Even Dooku sensed his power and mentioned that there was something "Unusual" with Anakin on AOTC.

And Dooku whooping Kenobi and then Kenobi whooping Anakin?

I think Kenobi was overall the better duelist than Anakin.


And Anakin defeating Dooku? I find it cheap that he physically heaved his wrists over Dooku's and used his physical strength to push his Lightsaber down on his wrists.

Originally posted by Ianus
Meh. GL did the series wrong to give Yoda a lightsaber and make him do things like lead the Clone Troopers and impale that trooper outside of the temple. It was very out of character for the benevolent little imp we all grew up with.

No. The lightsaber is "the weapon of a Jedi Knight", and Yoda is a Jedi so therefore why would he be an odd-ball and be the only Jedi who aint packin' heat? There's nothing wrong with him impaling that clone trooper--they were shooting at him, he aint just gonna stand there.

As far as the thread: When it comes to lightsaber combat, I think Dooku would school Palpatine. Even the novel said "Dooku had sparred Qui-Gon thousands of times and knew all of Ataru's weaknesses with it's ridiculous acrobatics."

Originally posted by DiamondBullets
No. The lightsaber is "the weapon of a Jedi Knight", and Yoda is a Jedi so therefore why would he be an odd-ball and be the only Jedi who aint packin' heat? There's nothing wrong with him impaling that clone trooper--they were shooting at him, he aint just gonna stand there.

As far as the thread: When it comes to lightsaber combat, I think Dooku would school Palpatine. Even the novel said "Dooku had sparred Qui-Gon thousands of times and knew all of Ataru's weaknesses with it's ridiculous acrobatics."

Oh, I believe Count Dooku would best Sidious in saber combat as well. But 'school'? I'm not so sure. Mace didn't school Sidious in saber combat but still bested him. Perhaps it was hyperbole on your part... but, I will say that Palpatine's saber form has not been confirmed, and Gillard says that it is ambigious and perhaps one of his own special forms, though it seems to be a blend of Niman and Ataru.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Extremely incorrect.

Anakin does not push him back. Dooku pushes HIMSELF back off of Anakin and twirls his Lightsaber around and holds it up, which would have bought him a perfect chance to seer down on Anakin, seeing as Anakin's saber was just pushed down and was still down for a few seconds when Dooku was holding his Lightsaber high.

Wrong. After Dooku says his line, Anakin pushes against Dooku, and the Count steps back, spins, twirls his lightsaber, and raises it vertically over his head in anticipation of Anakin's attack. Anakin himself has his saber in one hand, down to his side. He takes two steps forward, on the second raising his saber high and initiating the last part of the duel. Believe me; I have the scene at hand.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Wrong. After Dooku says his line, Anakin pushes against Dooku, and the Count steps back, spins, twirls his lightsaber, and raises it vertically over his head in anticipation of Anakin's attack. Anakin himself has his saber in one hand, down to his side. He takes two steps forward, on the second raising his saber high and initiating the last part of the duel. Believe me; I have the scene at hand.

I have the scene at hand as well, Faunus. Dooku is not pushed upwards. Him and Anakin follow through and he has at least three seconds to come down on Anakin, slashing him in a vertical half. Did you see how long it took Anakin to regain himself and hit Dooku's Lightsaber? Dooku was waiting for him to smash his Lightsaber instead of just cuttingh im.

Correction. Again. . .

Sorgo, please. Watch the scene again. As I type this, I am watching the duel in 4x slow-motion. I don't feel like re-typing what I've just said.

Originally posted by Darth Faunus
Correction. Again. . .

Sorgo, please. Watch the scene again. As I type this, I am watching the duel in 4x slow-motion. I don't feel like re-typing what I've just said.


Anakin doesn't push, Faunus! They roll together.

Sounds.... kinky. Is this Pr0n W4rz: Rev3ge 0f teh Gh3y?

Yes Janus, that's exactly what it is. Along with The Rise of Darth Vader.

*Wades through the innuendo*

You don't say?

Originally posted by Ianus
Sounds.... kinky. Is this Pr0n W4rz: Rev3ge 0f teh Gh3y?

T3H STAR W4RZ: TH3 F4GG0T M3N4C3!

4++4ck 0f teh qu33nz!

pr0n wurz: 4 n3\/\/ h0m0

Hmm. I consider Anakin a better duelist than Obi-Wan, because it just seems to fit with the whole dramatic tragedy of him falling and then losing to Obi-Wan because he is still foolish and arrogant.

Infact I do not really consider Obi-Wan much of a duelist at all, but thats more to do wih his calm nature than anything concrete, while Anakin is aggresive. And btw im talking bollocks now.

Erm. And about the Yoda thing... Surely a lightsaber is a bit tidier than littering the floor with force-lightning or what not?

Originally posted by exanda kane
Hmm. I consider Anakin a better duelist than Obi-Wan, because it just seems to fit with the whole dramatic tragedy of him falling and then losing to Obi-Wan because he is still foolish and arrogant.

Infact I do not really consider Obi-Wan much of a duelist at all, but thats more to do wih his calm nature than anything concrete, while Anakin is aggresive. And btw im talking bollocks now.

Erm. And about the Yoda thing... Surely a lightsaber is a bit tidier than littering the floor with force-lightning or what not?



I don't Anakin being a better duelist than Kenobi. Kenobi is good. People never give him credit.


But the fact is: Kenobi owned Anakin.

No I agree, he is a good duelist, as much as it may look like im contradicting myself, but I have just never imagined Obi-Wan as a great Duelist. He just doesnt seem aggresive enough.

Originally posted by exanda kane
No I agree, he is a good duelist, as much as it may look like im contradicting myself, but I have just never imagined Obi-Wan as a great Duelist. He just doesnt seem aggresive enough.

That's the point. He had barely any aggression. He was controlled in a line of defense. All he had to do was wait for the other contender to f*ck up like Anakin did.

Well. hmm. Were we arguing, I misremember. Well it seems we agree or something along those lines....

*whistles*

Superiority is in question. No, Sorgo, Obi-Wan did not own Anakin. I seem to recall their duel being immensely long and intense. I also recall Anakin gaining the upper hand on various occasions. No, I'm afraid Obi-Wan did not own Anakin.

In fact, it would be questionable how the fight would've ended if Anakin didn't give into his unlimited stupidity and make the jump. It seemed that Obi-Wan assumed it was over then.

Now, there's no question Obi-Wan is smarter than Anakin... but a better duelist? Not likely.

I am curious. Though Lucas is the creator of Star Wars and such, what is the level of canon of comments made by Nick Gillard that are not retracted by Lucas, and if they concern lightsaber duels and forms?

I just want 2 say that OB1 is a better duelist than Anakin. Anakin has the potential to be the greatest but he is a long way off in ROTS. However, Anakin bested Dooku because his aggressive fighting style is better suited to Dooku's than to OB1's defensive style. Sidious isn't that great a duelist but makes up for it in sheer dark side power and would clean the floor with his apprentice Dooku. I think Dooku is overrated and only got the best of Anakin and OB1 in AOTC because they had both been imprisoned and had been put through great battles and were fatigued. Anyway that's just how i see it.

Originally posted by Escape81
Superiority is in question. No, Sorgo, Obi-Wan did not own Anakin. I seem to recall their duel being immensely long and intense. I also recall Anakin gaining the upper hand on various occasions. No, I'm afraid Obi-Wan did not own Anakin.

In fact, it would be questionable how the fight would've ended if Anakin didn't give into his unlimited stupidity and make the jump. It seemed that Obi-Wan assumed it was over then.

Now, there's no question Obi-Wan is smarter than Anakin... but a better duelist? Not likely.

Obi-Wan IS a better duelist than Anakin. He has more experience, skills and knowledge. He might not have as much raw power but he has more skill.

Originally posted by Veneficus
Obi-Wan IS a better duelist than Anakin. He has more experience, skills and knowledge. He might not have as much raw power but he has more skill.

According to Nick Gillard, who is the designer, creator, and overall mastermind of the Star Wars dueling universe, Obi-Wan is not the superior duelist. Obi-Wan is a level 8, and while he is an exceptional Jedi, he is not quite on Anakin's level - who is a level 9. Dooku is also ranked as a level 9, which would explain how the Count so easily disposed of Obi-Wan.

According to Gillard and Lucas, Obi-Wan is able to compete with Anakin only because he is aware of how Anakin fights, and that Obi-Wan's skill at defense is on par with Anakin's skill at offense.

Level 9s:

Yoda
Sidious
Mace
Dooku

Anakin IS a better duelist in RotS than Obi-Wan.

Originally posted by Escape81
Superiority is in question. No, Sorgo, Obi-Wan did not own Anakin. I seem to recall their duel being immensely long and intense. I also recall Anakin gaining the upper hand on various occasions. No, I'm afraid Obi-Wan did not own Anakin.

In fact, it would be questionable how the fight would've ended if Anakin didn't give into his unlimited stupidity and make the jump. It seemed that Obi-Wan assumed it was over then.

Now, there's no question Obi-Wan is smarter than Anakin... but a better duelist? Not likely.



Escape, I am sorry to break it to you, but you're wrong. Anakin DID Get owned. Well, simply because he is the one with fake arms and legs and he also has to use a breathing device to stay alive. I clearly remember Kenobi walking away from the fight and Anakin sitting on a Lava slope burning up while missing a few legs and an arm.

One has to be smart to be a good duelist, Escape. This is why Kenobi won. Anakin was stupid and made the wrong move. That doesn't make him much of a good duelist AT ALL.

Sure, Anakin may have been the better Duelist, but he didn't win the duel and he didn't even defeat Kenobi the second time they fought. Kenobi let Vader kill him.

Anakin did get the upper hand quite the few times... But in the end?


Anakin fell to Kenobi's blade. It's that simple. Nothing mattered up to that point. Just like Maul....


"Sorgo, Maul wuz owning kenoby for most of t3h fight!"


^ Wrong. Maul got stupid. His arrogance took over and he was killed and he LOST. He didn't "Win" because he did better during the most of the fight.

In the end, Kenobi walked away and it was Maul at the bottom of a shaft in two pieces. So....

Who really won? Same instance with Anakin and Kenobi. Anakin lost Whether he was a better duelist or not didn't matter because he lost and that also gives us a hint that Kenobi may be a better duelist.

Originally posted by Escape81
According to Nick Gillard, who is the designer, creator, and overall mastermind of the Star Wars dueling universe, Obi-Wan is not the superior duelist. Obi-Wan is a level 8, and while he is an exceptional Jedi, he is not quite on Anakin's level - who is a level 9. Dooku is also ranked as a level 9, which would explain how the Count so easily disposed of Obi-Wan.

According to Gillard and Lucas, Obi-Wan is able to compete with Anakin only because he is aware of how Anakin fights, and that Obi-Wan's skill at defense is on par with Anakin's skill at offense.

Level 9s:

Yoda
Sidious
Mace
Dooku

If you watch the specials in the ROTS DVD set you have Nick Gillard saying that Anakin and Obi-Wan are basically equal and he just called Anakin a "level 9" because Anakin is using the Dark Side which makes him more dangerous than Obi-Wan because of "aggressive" abilities (force choke). He isn't a better swordfighter.

And for the "level 9" characters you've mentioned. We know that Mace has beaten Sidious, Dooku has beaten Mace and Dooku was beaten by Yoda. So even on equal level one person can be superior to another on the same level.

Originally posted by Sorgo
Escape, I am sorry to break it to you, but you're wrong. Anakin DID Get owned. Well, simply because he is the one with fake arms and legs and he also has to use a breathing device to stay alive. I clearly remember Kenobi walking away from the fight and Anakin sitting on a Lava slope burning up while missing a few legs and an arm.

One has to be smart to be a good duelist, Escape. This is why Kenobi won. Anakin was stupid and made the wrong move. That doesn't make him much of a good duelist AT ALL.

Sure, Anakin may have been the better Duelist, but he didn't win the duel and he didn't even defeat Kenobi the second time they fought. Kenobi let Vader kill him.

Anakin did get the upper hand quite the few times... But in the end?


Anakin fell to Kenobi's blade. It's that simple. Nothing mattered up to that point. Just like Maul....


"Sorgo, Maul wuz owning kenoby for most of t3h fight!"


^ Wrong. Maul got stupid. His arrogance took over and he was killed and he LOST. He didn't "Win" because he did better during the most of the fight.

In the end, Kenobi walked away and it was Maul at the bottom of a shaft in two pieces. So....

Who really won? Same instance with Anakin and Kenobi. Anakin lost Whether he was a better duelist or not didn't matter because he lost and that also gives us a hint that Kenobi may be a better duelist.

Lmao. By that same token, Dooku was flat out owned by Anakin. One left the duel with his head on his shoulders. The other did not. Ups...

Originally posted by Borbarad
If you watch the specials in the ROTS DVD set you have Nick Gillard saying that Anakin and Obi-Wan are basically equal and he just called Anakin a "level 9" because Anakin is using the Dark Side which makes him more dangerous than Obi-Wan because of "aggressive" abilities (force choke). He isn't a better swordfighter.

And for the "level 9" characters you've mentioned. We know that Mace has beaten Sidious, Dooku has beaten Mace and Dooku was beaten by Yoda. So even on equal level one person can be superior to another on the same level.

Precisely. Point being, Sorgo says Obi-Wan owned Anakin, when he in fact, did not. Gillard also said in an interview, and I reiterate this, that one victory does not necessarily mean that a duelist is truly superior to another, and that at level 9 - the environment and Dark Side play a keen role in victories.

Originally posted by Escape81
According to Nick Gillard, who is the designer, creator, and overall mastermind of the Star Wars dueling universe, Obi-Wan is not the superior duelist. Obi-Wan is a level 8, and while he is an exceptional Jedi, he is not quite on Anakin's level - who is a level 9. Dooku is also ranked as a level 9, which would explain how the Count so easily disposed of Obi-Wan.

According to Gillard and Lucas, Obi-Wan is able to compete with Anakin only because he is aware of how Anakin fights, and that Obi-Wan's skill at defense is on par with Anakin's skill at offense.

Level 9s:

Yoda
Sidious
Mace
Dooku

You DO realize that Nick Gillard also says that he could beat Anakin in a fight? Nick Gillard is full of crap. Ask Janus he will tell you the same thing.

Originally posted by Veneficus
You DO realize that Nick Gillard also says that he could beat Anakin in a fight? Nick Gillard is full of crap. Ask Janus he will tell you the same thing.

That he could beat Anakin, or Hayden? Because Gillard is an expert swordfighter, and didn't earn his position from party favors. Give him a sword, and yeah, I'd imagine he could.

Originally posted by Escape81
Lmao. By that same token, Dooku was flat out owned by Anakin. One left the duel with his head on his shoulders. The other did not. Ups...

There was circumstance to that!

There was no Circumstance to Anakin getting owned! Anakin didn't let himself get chewed up and he wasn't holding back on Kenobi, and Kenobi wasn't holding back on him.

Those two are totally irrelevant to each other.


You have quite a dull perspective on things, Escape.

Originally posted by Escape81
Precisely. Point being, Sorgo says Obi-Wan owned Anakin, when he in fact, did not. Gillard also said in an interview, and I reiterate this, that one victory does not necessarily mean that a duelist is truly superior to another, and that at level 9 - the environment and Dark Side play a keen role in victories.

That doesn't honestly matter.

The one that walks away alive is usually the better one. There are some circumstances where that is not true, but in most cases it is. Like Kenobi VS Anakin or Maul VS Kenobi. Sure, Anakin was the better duelist, but who kept their limbs?

Originally posted by Sorgo
There was circumstance to that!

There was no Circumstance to Anakin getting owned! Anakin didn't let himself get chewed up and he wasn't holding back on Kenobi, and Kenobi wasn't holding back on him.

Those two are totally irrelevant to each other.


You have quite a dull perspective on things, Escape.

Excuses, excuses. No, Sorgo. Anakin did not get owned by Obi-Wan. He was defeated, but he was not beaten quickly. He had more of the upper hand during the fight than Obi-Wan. To own would be to annihilate or obliterate in battle, which Obi-Wan did not do. Period.

I have to say, Anakin went from being Der Ubermenchen to Floppy the Amputee. True, it may not have happened instantly, but that is my definition of owned.

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7149/wtfpwnedannie1uz.jpg

Originally posted by Ianus
I have to say, Anakin went from being Der Ubermenchen to Floppy the Amputee. True, it may not have happened instantly, but that is my definition of owned.

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/7149/wtfpwnedannie1uz.jpg

Then that is a grotesque definition. Owned insinuates an instant and utter annihilation. The fact of the matter is that Obi-Wan was constantly on the move, and Anakin had the upper-hand 90 percent of the time. So indeed, Ianus, I agree. It didn't happen instantly. Thus I see no reason why Obi-Wan owned Anakin.

Owned insinuates clear and final victory over an opponent. Anakin may have lashed out like an undisciplined schoolboy, but in the end he was OWNED as the above picture shows, limbless and left for dead.

I sure as hell didn't see anyone else wrecked that badly with ONE single swipe, do you?

Originally posted by Escape81
Then that is a grotesque definition. Owned insinuates an instant and utter annihilation. The fact of the matter is that Obi-Wan was constantly on the move, and Anakin had the upper-hand 90 percent of the time. So indeed, Ianus, I agree. It didn't happen instantly. Thus I see no reason why Obi-Wan owned Anakin.

You are totally crossing the line. 90% of the time? That is the most ridiculous bullshit I have heard in a while. They were quite fair in the fight and had a share of upper hands.

And yes... Anakin got pwned. He was missing limbs and burned like a barbequed steak.

Yup. Obi-Wan disarmed Vader near the beginning, Vader disarmed him back. Both got at least one kick in, Vader nearly died when that big thing fell in the lava. Obi-Wan nearly cut him near the end when they were fighting on the small platform moving in the lava (Vader had to lean back to avoid being hit and then nearly fell off into the lava). How was Vader winning 90% of the time?