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is this truly possible or are we humans, full of flaws and imperfections, destined and incapable of living in such a perfect existence were everyone is taken care for and there is no hunger, no homeless, no war or violence, nor instability? could we function as a society or would we need to strive for something more than the mundane life of perfection?

Do you realize the kinds of people on this forum??????? Peace....?????
lol1

No we can't function in perfection. Ambition is one of our greatest flaws. No human being can honestly say they would be happy being exactly like everyone else for the rest of their lives. We can't be equal because of our nature and our need to succeed and rise above others. That's why communism fails, we can't all be at the same level, because lets face it some of us aren't.

So therefore, there will always be war, and other disasters like so

Originally posted by silver_tears
No we can't function in perfection. Ambition is one of our greatest flaws. No human being can honestly say they would be happy being exactly like everyone else for the rest of their lives. We can't be equal because of our nature and our need to succeed and rise above others. That's why communism fails, we can't all be at the same level, because lets face it some of us aren't.

So therefore, there will always be war, and other disasters like so
i was gonna bring up that point later, but it looks like you beat me to the punch.

i agree. we all strive for something and we all work hard for what we strive for. why should someone else be privilaged to the very same thing if they made less of a commitment? i'm a firm beliver in "what you do is what you get."

Originally posted by Fallen Jedi
everyone is taken care for and there is no hunger, no homeless, no war or violence, nor instability?

Well since not everyone sees that as "perfect", no!

Originally posted by Fallen Jedi
why should someone else be privilaged to the very same thing if they made less of a commitment? i'm a firm beliver in "what you do is what you get."

This is exactly right. The main jist of why it won't work. Well, one of the main reasons.

People would eventually think "Why am I being reduced to being like them idiots? I'm better." and so forth. As they'd have the right to.

-AC

Originally posted by Fallen Jedi
is this truly possible or are we humans, full of flaws and imperfections, destined and incapable of living in such a perfect existence were everyone is taken care for and there is no hunger, no homeless, no war or violence, nor instability? could we function as a society or would we need to strive for something more than the mundane life of perfection?
Unless we somehow reduce our hunger for power and wealth, no.

FJ we're full of flaws and imperfections that makes us humans (I think) I don't believe we will ever get a glimpse of a Utopia in our lifetime. And quite frankly it won't matter whether I see it or not. I really won't change my lifestyle, or everyone's else. The illusion of Utopia banishes everytime the world issues aren't resolve or won't be resolve.

Originally posted by Fallen Jedi
is this truly possible or are we humans, full of flaws and imperfections, destined and incapable of living in such a perfect existence were everyone is taken care for and there is no hunger, no homeless, no war or violence, nor instability? could we function as a society or would we need to strive for something more than the mundane life of perfection?


Utopia is possible. It won't just happen, however. It will have to come through force. Only concentrated population reduction and a program of forced integrating will allow it come about. Those who become responsible for it happening will also have to remain focused on the goal..not allowing themselves to be swayed by temporary indulgence, like money or power. It can happen, though. It's just too bad, that those not willing to accept the differences in humanity will have to be wiped out for it to be possible. Actually, it's too bad that they can't accept differences.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Utopia is possible. It won't just happen, however. It will have to come through force. Only concentrated population reduction and a program of forced integrating will allow it come about. Those who become responsible for it happening will also have to remain focused on the goal..not allowing themselves to be swayed by temporary indulgence, like money or power. It can happen, though. It's just too bad, that those not willing to accept the differences in humanity will have to be wiped out for it to be possible. Actually, it's too bad that they can't accept differences.

didn't the Nazis try that back in the 30's and 40's?

Originally posted by Scoobless
didn't the Nazis try that back in the 30's and 40's?
And look what happened.

Originally posted by Scoobless
didn't the Nazis try that back in the 30's and 40's?

Indeed. But, pay attention to the part where I said those responsible must not become swayed by money and power.

any forced attempt at Utopia would only be met with resistance and war

Originally posted by Scoobless
any forced attempt at Utopia would only be met with resistance and war


I'm not going to argue symantics with you. But, that's why that resistance would have to be crushed, their power and ability taken away from them, and those responsible killed.

Sorry, that's what I believe.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Utopia is possible. It won't just happen, however. It will have to come through force. Only concentrated population reduction and a program of forced integrating will allow it come about. Those who become responsible for it happening will also have to remain focused on the goal..not allowing themselves to be swayed by temporary indulgence, like money or power. It can happen, though. It's just too bad, that those not willing to accept the differences in humanity will have to be wiped out for it to be possible. Actually, it's too bad that they can't accept differences.

Holy shit, did your uncool nazi brother take over your Account? Not that I don't agree with you partly (depends in what Utopian society you belief) but I didn't expect it from you.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I'm not going to argue symantics with you. But, that's why that resistance would have to be crushed, their power and ability taken away from them, and those responsible killed.

Sorry, that's what I believe.

a utopia where it's "live our way or die"?

sounds more like a dystopia to me

Originally posted by Scoobless
a utopia where it's "live our way or die"?

sounds more like a dystopia to me

Nope, not "our way or die". Freedom of religion, freedom of political expression and freedom of choice can all be maintained. This is why I have always preached that concentrated population reduction will be the only gateway to a successful future. I'm not talking about killing jews or gays or muslims. I'm talking about wiping out anyone who isn't concerned with the progress of our species. If that reduction comes from restrictions on breeding or in gas chambers, the end result can be the same.

Maintain knowledge, maintain differences, but when there is no option but successful, peaceful co-existence, then differences in race, creed, orientation and political ideas can be worked through in a more civilized and productive manner.


I know it's an "uncool" point of view, but I believe in it.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Holy shit, did your uncool nazi brother take over your Account? Not that I don't agree with you partly (depends in what Utopian society you belief) but I didn't expect it from you.

I was under the impression that you were my uncool Nazi brother.

But, yes, I believe in this. I'm sure you can see how my past opinions continue to agree with what I'm saying now. I've never swayed from this perspective.

Originally posted by Fallen Jedi
is this truly possible or are we humans, full of flaws and imperfections, destined and incapable of living in such a perfect existence were everyone is taken care for and there is no hunger, no homeless, no war or violence, nor instability? could we function as a society or would we need to strive for something more than the mundane life of perfection?

Beverly Hills?

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Nope, not "our way or die". Freedom of religion, freedom of political expression and freedom of choice can all be maintained. This is why I have always preached that concentrated population reduction will be the only gateway to a successful future. I'm not talking about killing jews or gays or muslims. I'm talking about wiping out anyone who isn't concerned with the progress of our species. If that reduction comes from restrictions on breeding or in gas chambers, the end result can be the same.

Maintain knowledge, maintain differences, but when there is no option but successful, peaceful co-existence, then differences in race, creed, orientation and political ideas can be worked through in a more civilized and productive manner.


I know it's an "uncool" point of view, but I believe in it.

I'm sorry I just don't see how giving people freedoms would work. "Freedom is never free." By allowing them to maintain their religions. political views, and their freedom of choice, this would separate the population and would result in fighting.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I was under the impression that you were my uncool Nazi brother.

But, yes, I believe in this. I'm sure you can see how my past opinions continue to agree with what I'm saying now. I've never swayed from this perspective.
True, so we are both ucool nazi brothers. Great.

Well I believe that you are not that wrong, my utopia might look similar (just with more Robots) but I take a more peaceful approach. It's obvious that the population has to be reduced, but whiping out people just does't fit my beliefs. There are different other options, emigration (other countries, other planets), don't allow them to reproduce, just no Holocausts.

Originally posted by silver_tears
I'm sorry I just don't see how giving people freedoms would work. "Freedom is never free." By allowing them to maintain their religions. political views, and their freedom of choice, this would separate the population and would result in fighting.


Let me illustrate what I mean. You are a member of political party A, I am a member of political party B. I think the economy is best served by option A, you believe that it is best served by option B. Both points of view can be expressed, supported and then one can be ratified and made policy. But, there would be no need to figure out how to relate to other economies, because there would only be one. Internal politics, while devisive, can be handled in a more cohesive manner.

As for religion, freedom of religion and worship are one thing. Allowing ANY aspect of religion into the process of government can NOT be allowed. Your god is your god. My god is my god. However, legislation that caters to one religion over another wouldn't be allowed. Churches would be taxed like any other buisness. Religious based intolerance would be done away with.

Freedom of choice is in regard to non political/religious life. Want an abortion, get one. Wanna marry someone of the same sex, do it. If you want to look down on someone for getting an abortion, that's fine. You have your opinion, but that opinion, once it interferes with the right of another to live the way they choose to, then you are breaking the law. Bomb an abortion clinic, be prepared to be put to death yourself. Beat a Muslim in the streets, be prepared to forfeit your life for that action.

But I just don't believe you can change or control people's minds. Oppression would only go so far. Eventually someone would be like "My beliefs are more valid than yours." and then that would result in war if they formed a following of enough people. Then would you eliminate that whole group of people? Eventually there would be no one left.


I just don't think people have the ability to put aside their natural urges for being better than someone else enough to live in peace.

Originally posted by silver_tears
But I just don't believe you can change or control people's minds. Oppression would only go so far. Eventually someone would be like "My beliefs are more valid than yours." and then that would result in war if they formed a following of enough people. Then would you eliminate that whole group of people? Eventually there would be no one left.


I just don't think people have the ability to put aside their natural urges for being better than someone else enough to live in peace.
But does society really need those destructive elements?

Originally posted by silver_tears
But I just don't believe you can change or control people's minds. Oppression would only go so far. Eventually someone would be like "My beliefs are more valid than yours." and then that would result in war if they formed a following of enough people. Then would you eliminate that whole group of people? Eventually there would be no one left.


I just don't think people have the ability to put aside their natural urges for being better than someone else enough to live in peace.

I'm not saying that people's minds need be changed. There is room for different opions, but they would be considered on the basis of "better for everyone" rather than "better for this group or that one." In time, this mindset would prevail.

By removing boundries, both physical and mental, there will be no need for anyone to fight.

As for "forming a following"....such notions would have to be crushed before they got off the ground.

I'm also not saying it's unreasonable to be better at something, that's called aptitude. Removing the descrimination that comes along with that in today's culture, is the point.

The point here isn't to stop people from thinking, it's to make people know there is a price to pay for such beliefs, when translated into action. You can hate a gay man, but as soon as your beliefs are put into action by way of descrimination or violence...then that person will be put to death.

I don't think it's even a matter of wanting to be better than someone else. Just wanting to live up to potential. Some people are always gonna have more potential than others.

-AC

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I'm not saying that people's minds need be changed. There is room for different opions, but they would be considered on the basis of "better for everyone" rather than "better for this group or that one." In time, this mindset would prevail.


The point here isn't to stop people from thinking, it's to make people know there is a price to pay for such beliefs, when translated into action. You can hate a gay man, but as soon as your beliefs are put into action by way of descrimination or violence...then that person will be put to death.

Just found that first bit interesting as it reminded me so much of Plato's Republic.

And for the "if your beliefs are put into action by way of dicrimination or violence..." well is that not in what we live now? other than the put to death part......

Originally posted by silver_tears
Just found that first bit interesting as it reminded me so much of Plato's Republic.

And for the "if your beliefs are put into action by way of dicrimination or violence..." well is that not in what we live now? other than the put to death part......
Woah...now that's unjust...Capt_Nazis view is nothing like Platos Republic. There is no freedom at all (in Plato's now).

A utopian society isn't possible as long as humans exist, humans aren't capable of perfection.

Originally posted by silver_tears
Just found that first bit interesting as it reminded me so much of Plato's Republic.

And for the "if your beliefs are put into action by way of dicrimination or violence..." well is that not in what we live now? other than the put to death part......


I have drawn my ideas from many infulences. Greek philosophy, communism, modern American politics, even Nazism.

Secondly, we have a bastardized version of this policy...unfortunately controlled by people who descriminate themselves.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Woah...now that's unjust...Capt_Nazis view is nothing like Platos Republic. There is no freedom at all (in Plato's now).

The whole better for everyone rather than individual groups, or people if you will was what Plato's Republic was all about from what I've read of it

I wish I lived in an hedonistic Utopia.

Orwell said that it is unlikely due to the fact that there would be no need of governments who therefore will not let it come about.

A hedonistic utopia is too subjective to encompass everyone. You would have to live on your own to fulfill it

Originally posted by Bardock42
Woah...now that's unjust...Capt_Nazis view is nothing like Platos Republic. There is no freedom at all (in Plato's now).


There's plenty of freedom in my utopia. There just comes with it an understanding of consequence and responsablitiy. What's wrong with that?

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
There's plenty of freedom in my utopia. There just comes with it an understanding of consequence and responsablitiy. What's wrong with that?

Nothing, that's why I said to compare it to Platos Politeia is unjust.

I don't believe we'll ever have a Utopia.

Utopia on a small level can be achieved....but the world will burn first before large scale peace is achieved...any messing with the genes of humans won't work either, we're more likely to kill everyone or make everyone go crazy.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Nothing, that's why I said to compare it to Platos Politeia is unjust.

My misunderstanding, I was unclear as to which system you were addressing.


Originally posted by Julie
Utopia on a small level can be achieved....but the world will burn first before large scale peace is achieved...

True, but the sad part, is that it doesn't have to.

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
I'm not saying that people's minds need be changed. There is room for different opions, but they would be considered on the basis of "better for everyone" rather than "better for this group or that one." In time, this mindset would prevail.

By removing boundries, both physical and mental, there will be no need for anyone to fight.

As for "forming a following"....such notions would have to be crushed before they got off the ground.

I'm also not saying it's unreasonable to be better at something, that's called aptitude. Removing the descrimination that comes along with that in today's culture, is the point.

The point here isn't to stop people from thinking, it's to make people know there is a price to pay for such beliefs, when translated into action. You can hate a gay man, but as soon as your beliefs are put into action by way of descrimination or violence...then that person will be put to death.

yes, but by saving those who agree, don't oppose, and those that are ready to accept whatever they're told, aren't you in effect destroying the conscious mind? you would be eliminating those who have the aptitude to think for themselves, to come up with new ideas, notions, and beliefs. how can society move foreword?

if it weren't for inventive minds, we wouldn't have the technology, science, or luxury we have today... or the mentality to think beyond what other people have already come up with. you wouldn't be encouraging people to think, you would be oppressing their minds. people would be too afraid to speak out for fear of their ideas being too "radical" or too "inventive." .


society would be at a stand still as we know it... or even worse, we could all revert to a more primitive state of mind where everyone is passive and no one DOES think.

Originally posted by Fallen Jedi
yes, but by saving those who agree, don't oppose, and those that are ready to accept whatever they're told, aren't you in effect destroying the conscious mind? you would be eliminating those who have the aptitude to think for themselves, to come up with new ideas, notions, and beliefs. how can society move foreword?

if it weren't for inventive minds, we wouldn't have the technology, science, or luxury we have today... or the mentality to think beyond what other people have already come up with. you wouldn't be encouraging people to think, you would be oppressing their minds. people would be too afraid to speak out for fear of their ideas being too "radical" or too "inventive." .


society would be at a stand still as we know it... or even worse, we could all revert to a more primitive state of mind where everyone is passive and no one DOES think.

Pay attention to what I'm saying. No where in my posts did I express the desire to elimiate free thinking, or the ability to influence society. In fact, I believe I was in total support for a new and better idea....one that would help society. I'm not saying that advancement should be crushed...I'm saying opposition to such an ideal can be dealt with.

Subversion is one aspect. But, useless subversion is another.

yes, but wouldn't the end result be the same? you're eliminating people with different views than yourself. you're only keeping those who agree... wouldn't that in some way end free thinking? you're getting rid of people because they THINK differently... and sometimes that's just what we need...someone with a different thought process... innovation.

Originally posted by Fallen Jedi
or even worse, we could all revert to a more primitive state of mind where everyone is passive and no one DOES think.

You don't look around our planet and think that we're at the above point already?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You don't look around our planet and think that we're at the above point already?

-AC

Cheers